How do you step in standard ?

[dancingirldancing]

My old teacher used to tell me to slide the heels of my shoes on the floor when I take forward step resulting in horrible screeeetching sound upon friction with the floor kind of like chalk on the board.

I do not think that this is right somehow as I saw that most competition couple normally just place their heels gently on the floor.

This is esp in the waltz.

Is it a really bad habit ?

I am really confused. I am getting a new standard teacher this Thursday and do not want to look bad.

[pruthe]

Why not just wait until you have your lesson with your new standard teacher? This is a good question to ask. I wouldn't worry about looking bad. Your new teacher will probably be expecting questions such as this. Good luck with your lesson.

[Chris Stratton]

A new teacher should be a new opportunity to learn. Don't worry about how you go into the lesson dancing, instead think about coming out of it dancing better than you went in. Or at least having an idea of positive changes to work towards making.

As for the literal question of how to step in standard, the answer is ultimately not to step at all, but to move your *** and then let your foot catch up with it. Sending your weight like this turns out to be quite hard to do - especially slowly. So people develop odd habits, like sliding their weight on the moving heel, that really have no place in the final product at all.

We could also say that you already know how to take steps in standard - it's basically the same way you would walk if wearing flat shoes and not trying to dance. The main difference is that instead of picking up your feet you will allow them to glide on or infinitesimally above the floor. Ultimately you will make it bigger and slower, learn to do it backwards with as much ease as forwards, and of course develop the ankle strength to do it in heels.

[Laura]

I agree -- don't worry about it and just go to the lesson. It will actually be good to show up with an interesting and intelligent question for your new teacher.

[samina]

what they say. and also... feet should ultimately be *quiet*. but it takes a lot of training to achieve that. so... take things a step at a time and it'll come. :)

[Angel HI]

Good points by all. I always begin every lesson/class with, "What questions have you for me?" I always have a plan. However, the best lessons are those that answer the students' growths. Your teacher/s will enjoy your desire/s.

[Easy]

A new teacher should be a new opportunity to learn. Don't worry about how you go into the lesson dancing, instead think about coming out of it dancing better than you went in. Or at least having an idea of positive changes to work towards making.

As for the literal question of how to step in standard, the answer is ultimately not to step at all, but to move your *** and then let your foot catch up with it. Sending your weight like this turns out to be quite hard to do - especially slowly. So people develop odd habits, like sliding their weight on the moving heel, that really have no place in the final product at all.

We could also say that you already know how to take steps in standard - it's basically the same way you would walk if wearing flat shoes and not trying to dance. The main difference is that instead of picking up your feet you will allow them to glide on or infinitesimally above the floor. Ultimately you will make it bigger and slower, learn to do it backwards with as much ease as forwards, and of course develop the ankle strength to do it in heels.

He He I like this analogy :)

[Easy]

wary wary kwietwy :)

[fascination]

As for the literal question of how to step in standard, the answer is ultimately not to step at all, but to move your *** and then let your foot catch up with it. Sending your weight like this turns out to be quite hard to do - especially slowly. So people develop odd habits, like sliding their weight on the moving heel, that really have no place in the final product at all.

We could also say that you already know how to take steps in standard - it's basically the same way you would walk if wearing flat shoes and not trying to dance. The main difference is that instead of picking up your feet you will allow them to glide on or infinitesimally above the floor. Ultimately you will make it bigger and slower, learn to do it backwards with as much ease as forwards, and of course develop the ankle strength to do it in heels.an excellent post...IMHO

[dancepro]

My old teacher used to tell me to slide the heels of my shoes on the floor when I take forward step resulting in horrible screeeetching sound upon friction with the floor kind of like chalk on the board.

I do not think that this is right somehow as I saw that most competition couple normally just place their heels gently on the floor.

This is esp in the waltz.

Is it a really bad habit ?

I am really confused. I am getting a new standard teacher this Thursday and do not want to look bad.

I would ask your new teacher for advise on this subject, if I were you.

My teacher had us work with coins on the floor to get good foot work. I actually don't mention foot work very often in my lessons. For new students to me I might bring out the coin trick to clean the basic foot work.

Dancepro

[_malakawa_]

My old teacher used to tell me to slide the heels of my shoes on the floor when I take forward step resulting in horrible screeeetching sound upon friction with the floor kind of like chalk on the board.

I do not think that this is right somehow as I saw that most competition couple normally just place their heels gently on the floor.

This is esp in the waltz.

Is it a really bad habit ?

I am really confused. I am getting a new standard teacher this Thursday and do not want to look bad.

first - ask your new teacher

second - how can you make that sound?? check your heel, maybe you need to fix them.

third - i agree with chris. it is a normal walk, just your knees are bend. your step will be bigger and more soft. your center is moving you and keep you in balance.

[VTDancer]

I would ask your new teacher for advise on this subject, if I were you.

My teacher had us work with coins on the floor to get good foot work. I actually don't mention foot work very often in my lessons. For new students to me I might bring out the coin trick to clean the basic foot work.

Dancepro

So how does the coin trick work?

[kayak]

It is probably a lot like the coin trick, but we learned with two pieces of paper. The drill is to dance with a sheet under each foot and not loose one regardless of the heal or toe step.

[_malakawa_]

It is probably a lot like the coin trick, but we learned with two pieces of paper. The drill is to dance with a sheet under each foot and not loose one regardless of the heal or toe step.

LOL. i used to practice like that. especially when we needed to clean the floor. :cool::D

[fascination]

and mine reccommends tissues under the feet...going to wait till after usdsc for that one...might break my leg at this juncture

[VTDancer]

The only coin "trick" I was familiar with is to imagine that you are squeezing a coin between your "cheeks" to keep your butt under you. Besides dance, this can also be helpful in skiing, in case anyone cares.

[and123]

Squeezing your buttcheeks tends to create tension and restrict motion elsewhere in the body. This is one of those "tricks" that won't die.

[fascination]

well...I tend to shorten my back and elongate my belly...a new found revelation that I am working to correct...and this was a result of straining too much to keep my shoulders back...and so while I now need to get those hips level underneath myself I am lothe to strain anything b/c ---and I am so relieved that it is NP's view---straining anything that much to keep it in a natural position, just doesn't make alot of sense and hampers movement

[_malakawa_]

and mine reccommends tissues under the feet...going to wait till after usdsc for that one...might break my leg at this juncture


i know. :cool:

[samina]

My teacher had us work with coins on the floor to get good foot work.

how do you mean, dancepro?

[fascination]

well if it is the same as the tissues I would imagine we are talking about how long to slide and when to release

[samina]

oh. so... attaching coins to the bottom of one's shoes??? not getting it...

[Some guy]

I believe the objective is to try and take a loose coin along with you for the ride by sliding it around the floor with your feet. This too is one of those tricks that will never die.

[fascination]

oh. so... attaching coins to the bottom of one's shoes??? not getting it...
well not attached but...slide, then lift at the proper moment I think

[VTDancer]

Coins attached to the bottoms of your shoes could be hazardous to your health.

[samina]

Coins attached to the bottoms of your shoes could be hazardous to your health.

lol...yayuh!

am wondering... how do you even *step* on the itty bitty thing accurately???

[madmaximus]

oh. so... attaching coins to the bottom of one's shoes??? not getting it...

[This is one of those things that is often quoted as viable, but never explained how to use properly... so....here...]

The coin "thing" is more of a Latin exercise than a Standard one--it is specifically designed for ball/toe work [as opposed to heel/toe skimming work--which requires a different apparatus: a sheet of sand paper and a hand towel or a rag]

The concept is to imagine (in Latin) a coin underneath the big toe.

The specific sequence is to lift the heel move the coin over the floor to the next foot location... and so on [as when one does a Rumba walk].

The idea is to keep the coin underneath the big toe throughout the figure--as reasonably possible.





m

[etp777]

That makes more sense to me, madmaximums. I know we did similar with small scraps of paper (post its without the adhesive) during work with a rhythm coach.

[amiko]

How is your heel screeching on the floor? Is the floor not wood? And what is on your heel? If it is cheap plastic, you can buy heel tips or cover them in leather heel stars.

The amount of pressure should be enough. Like you are petting a dog or a cat.

For standard, some of you were right. To keep beginner's feet on the floor, you can practice with a heavy duty paper towel or cheap piece of cloth.

[Chris Stratton]

Screeching is usually a result of having weight on the moving foot. Contact with the floor is good, but putting weight on the moving foot while it is still moving is bad. Unfortunately it is hard to not to do this at first, because avoiding it requires really "going for" the movement, and you can't safely do that until you know that you can catch yourself smoothly on arrival.

Also the more physically trained dancer can project their weight further forward in their standing foot before they loose balance (and have to either "go for it" or slide some weight on the moving foot) simply because their toes are stronger than a beginner's - they can carry their weight further forwards into the standing foot while remaining balanced on it.

[dancepro]

how do you mean, dancepro?

I am glad that many of you have learned the paper trick for latin and rhythm. As you all know the way the feet are used in standard and smooth is different then in latin and rhythm. Therefore the exercises can't be the same. I am surprised that nobody has shown this little exercises to any of you.

I will try to explain it, but it might be a little difficult to understand form the written word. My teacher made a lot of money from me with this exercise (I was to pay him every time I didn't get the set amount), but it trained my feet very, very quickly.

You place loose coins on the floor. You need to push the coins with all the different parts of the foot that are options of foot work (while standing up in a nice position).
To do the forward action, you push the coin with the one heel at a time (yes, the lady pushes the coin with her small little heel) and one toe at a time. These are the two possibilities when going forward. Backward there is only one possibility. You need to push the coin back with the toe. Then use the outside of the foot and the inside of the foot.
After you get a feel for the pushing the coin across the floor. Use different amounts of movement (this is were I lost my money), like 20cm, 30cm, 50cm, 90cm or even 1 meter (sorry I think in metric, you can change it to feet and inches). You need to learn to move the coin a precise amount, you can use any measurement, but you need to learn to be on the money, so to speak. This way you learn the amount of foot pressure and the use of nice foot work. Heel turns, heel pulls and pivots are different and they belong in a different set of exercises (the fruit section).

I hope this helps you all understand the coin "trick". Stay focused on the amount of movement, you need to coin to move. You might get frustrated in the beginning, but keep at it. You will be surprised how nicely your feet will soon be working.

Dancepro

ps. do not put the coins between the bottom cheeks, please.;)

[dancingirldancing]

If I need to put the coins under my heels then I will be doing the same thing that I do now anyway eg. dragging my heels forward against the floor.

[Angel HI]

Nice post, Chris, http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=587839&postcount=30 .

The coin "thing" is more of a Latin exercise than a Standard one--it is specifically designed for ball/toe work


Is someone familiar with the Westwood studio in LA? It is approx 150' X 60'. Bill Irvine, proving a point, once placed a quarter under his left foot, and danced an It'l Tango sequence from one end of the floor to the other. You know where this is going..... Upon finishing the sequence, he lifted his foot, and, voila, ...the quarter.

[tangotime]

Nice post, Chris, http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=587839&postcount=30 .




Is someone familiar with the Westwood studio in LA?




held my 1st dance shoe sale there in '61.. John and I are good friends . ( am not sure if its the same studio ? )

[Joe]

ps. do not put the coins between the bottom cheeks, please.;)
Yeah, that's where you're supposed to put a lump of coal to get a diamond. ;)

[Josh]

Upon finishing the sequence, he lifted his foot, and, voila, ...the quarter.

Holy Toledo... 150'?

[dancepro]

If I need to put the coins under my heels then I will be doing the same thing that I do now anyway eg. dragging my heels forward against the floor.

You are not supposed to put the coin under the heel. I said to use loose coins not clue, Scott's tape or otherwise attach the coins to the shoes. You are supposed to push the coin with your heel (the inside of the heel). If you are making a groove in the floor, you are not going to move the coin with a nice gentle push at a set measurement. To be able to push to coin across the floor, you need to have a light connection to the floor. The coin are supposed to actually glide across the floor in a smooth and continuous movement and then stop at the set measurement.

Dancepro

[dancepro]

Is someone familiar with the Westwood studio in LA? It is approx 150' X 60'. Bill Irvine, proving a point, once placed a quarter under his left foot, and danced an It'l Tango sequence from one end of the floor to the other. You know where this is going..... Upon finishing the sequence, he lifted his foot, and, voila, ...the quarter.

I think you are talking about the Westmore on Western Blvd. I know Bill and Bobbie did go there to do coaching for John Morton. I am not surprised that Bill would have done some of the coin tricks. Bill did do some neat tricks. Did you see the coffee cup trick?

Dancepro

[Chris Stratton]

I think what dancinggirldancing may have been concerned about, and the objection I have to this, is that a heel lead doesn't really become a heel lead until fairly late in the movement of the foot. Before that it's the ball of foot that is on or closest to the floor. If it is heel-focused from the start, you get the sliding on the heel effect that this thread was about avoiding. Instead, if the body is dominating the movement rather than the foot, the heel won't become dominant until late in the action.

Also while sliding a quarter around during a tango is an interesting trick, it's rather at odds with the usual pick up and place interpretation of tango footwork. To do this while using the usual tango action I'd think, you would need to dribble the quarter like a soccer (football) ball.

[dancepro]

Yeah, that's where you're supposed to put a lump of coal to get a diamond. ;)

Boy.....Your lady students must love dancing with you. Do you give every one of them a diamond for every piece of coal they give you. If that is the case I have a few students, I will be sending your way. ;)

Dancepro

[Standarddancer]

Nice post, Chris, http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=587839&postcount=30 .




Is someone familiar with the Westwood studio in LA? It is approx 150' X 60'. Bill Irvine, proving a point, once placed a quarter under his left foot, and danced an It'l Tango sequence from one end of the floor to the other. You know where this is going..... Upon finishing the sequence, he lifted his foot, and, voila, ...the quarter.

Wow! That's awesome!!!

[Some guy]

Chris, you're right, and this is the reason I had trouble envisioning how this "coin trick" works! I guess that's why they call it a trick!:eek:

[Josh]

Also while sliding a quarter around during a tango is an interesting trick, it's rather at odds with the usual pick up and place interpretation of tango footwork. To do this while using the usual tango action I'd think, you would need to dribble the quarter like a soccer (football) ball.

This was my concern as well. Not that I would openly question Bill Irvine, but I've yet to figure out how the tango would look in this exercise, and would be interested to find out more...!

[Joe]

Upon finishing the sequence, he lifted his foot, and, voila, ...the quarter.
LOL, I thought you were gonna say, "Voilà! he made change!" ;)

[VTDancer]

... Bill did do some neat tricks. Did you see the coffee cup trick?

Dancepro


I think this clip shows the "coffee cup trick". I think I might break some china trying this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVYDXfSbiN4&NR=1

[Standarddancer]

I think this clip shows the "coffee cup trick". I think I might break some china trying this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVYDXfSbiN4&NR=1

Thanks for sharing this awesome clip! Bill's balance is just impeccable! Also love that foxtrot line when they switch so that Bobby being the leader and Bill follows:)

[Josh]

I would love to hear the translation into english...

[Some guy]

Joe, I almost fell off my chair (at work) laughing when I read that!

[Chris Stratton]

Try the coffee cup trick, it's fun, and while it would be far from easy to do reliably it is not as hard to keep something on your head for a few steps as it may look.

[dancepro]

I think this clip shows the "coffee cup trick". I think I might break some china trying this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVYDXfSbiN4&NR=1

Thank you soooo much VTDancer. That was a few of Bill's many tricks. I was trained to do many of the tricks as many couples were at the time. I have not done many of them for a long time. I wouldn't even try the "coffee cup" again unless I can find some unbreakable china. My teacher had us do many of the trick with water in the cups....I did get wet a lot.

Dancepro

[dancepro]

I would love to hear the translation into english...

Dear Josh,

I only look at once as I have got to get started on my day of teaching. I do have 11 lessons today but I will listen to it again to night and get the translation to you. I will for sure get it to you by Monday.

Dancepro

[dancepro]

I would love to hear the translation into english...

Done!! Look at you PM

Dancepro

[Angel HI]

I think you are talking about the Westmore on Western Blvd. I know Bill and Bobbie did go there to do coaching for John Morton. I am not surprised that Bill would have done some of the coin tricks. Bill did do some neat tricks. Did you see the coffee cup trick?

Dancepro

Exactly. I know it well, and have no idea of why I typed Westwood. :confused:
Not familiar w/ the coffee cup.

[Angel HI]

Also while sliding a quarter around during a tango is an interesting trick, it's rather at odds with the usual pick up and place interpretation of tango footwork. To do this while using the usual tango action I'd think, you would need to dribble the quarter like a soccer (football) ball.

This is because there are many who believe that pick up and place does not mean lift in the air and plop down, but rather to use the whole foot by using inside edges and lifting the heels to step w/o rolling through the feet as in other dances.

[Angel HI]

I think this clip shows the "coffee cup trick". I think I might break some china trying this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVYDXfSbiN4&NR=1

I've had to do the LP thing many times. Whenever we dropped one, it came down like a razor on one's toes, and we had to pay for each one that broke. As for the cup and LP on the head...double-sided tape works well when there is no hair.

Just kidding. I enjoyed the few times with Bill very much.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Hope you weren't using limited edition LPs. :)

[dancepro]

This is because there are many who believe that pick up and place does not mean lift in the air and plop down, but rather to use the whole foot by using inside edges and lifting the heels to step w/o rolling through the feet as in other dances.

Angel HI
I will agree that there are many couples, that don't understand the use of foot work in Tango. I saw a lecture last year where a professional used a "top" couple for demonstration. The lady did the wrong foot work in two walks and a progressive link. She used the wrong foot work on the right foot of the second walk and the wrong foot work on the first step of progressive link. So she did the wrong foot work twice on the right foot over 4 steps. They danced the step 5 times and did the same mistake all times, so it was clearly not an accident by her understanding. We were at least 3 judges that attended the lecture that saw it and were chocked with that kind of foot work from a supposedly "top" professional couple.

I didn't see the trick that you saw in Westmore, so I am not sure which one of the coin tricks he did. I saw some of the coin trick both in person and on tapes (yes, the lectures were not transfered to DVDs as of yet) from Japan and Taiwan lectures. He would push the coin and then catch up with the coin. If you didn't watch carefully you wouldn't even notice the coin being pushed and him catching it again. He was very precise with the push of the coin and never pushed to too short or too far.

My teacher had a lot of old records that he used to scuffle like playing cards. When the record was so scratched that it wouldn't play any more, they were used for us to practice different tricks with, like the two that Bill showed on the German version of a lecture.

Dancepro

[dancepro]

Exactly. I know it well, and have no idea of why I typed Westwood. :confused:
Not familiar w/ the coffee cup.

When I was there about a month ago, it was the first time in a long time. There is now build a building so close to the windows now that it that the open feel of it is gone:(. It is really a shame that, that has been allowed, but I guess it is called progress.:confused:

Dancepro

[Chris Stratton]

The lady did the wrong foot work in two walks and a progressive link. She used the wrong foot work on the right foot of the second walk and the wrong foot work on the first step of progressive link.

What was the error? I'm going to guess either not releasing the toe, or not getting the necessary diagonal across foot component in the foot action for the first one, but have fewer ideas about the second.

I don't think it's any great secret that most dance instruction these days is focused on the overall effect, with specific details getting attention only when either those details are named as the suspect behind more obvious overall difficulties, or a specific teacher (often visiting) chooses to make an issue of them. I suspect part of the reason for this is that just getting the details right will not win competitions - if you have a couple who spends their time really pushing the limit on their performance, and one who puts their time into getting the details theoretically right, the performers are going to win, up until they either find that their technique can no longer support their movement, or a judge takes specific offense at how they are doing something. Usually they get away with it until they go up against someone who is both stronger and cleaner.

He would push the coin and then catch up with the coin. If you didn't watch carefully you wouldn't even notice the coin being pushed and him catching it again. He was very precise with the push of the coin and never pushed to too short or too far.

Seems like you are saying that he did not slide the coin continuously under his foot, but brought it with him with a series of precise little 'kicks' - conceptually comparable to a player dribbling a ball with his feet while keeping it close enough to his body that it would be difficult for an opponent to steal.

(why do I suddenly have visions of guys in tailsuits playing foot floor hockey with quarters?)