What is ballroom dancing for you?

[xxtupikxx]

Is it:

A) Sport

Aim= Winning
Intension= practical purpose-> purposeful physical activity
Expression= private
Skill= related to strategy in carrying out a predefined plan
Outcome=a winner, a result

B) Art

Aim= Creating
Intention= aesthetic purpose-> forms have special meaningfulness, living-through experience
Expression= aesthetic expression embodied in the form of the dance
Skill= Assimilated into the work
Outcome= present a form

C) Show

Aim= Displaying
Intention= entertainment-> popular
Expression= impressive rather than expressive, self expression
Skill= related to strategy in carrying out a predefined plan, physical tricks
Outcome= present yourself

(Thanks Ruud Vermey)

[Katarzyna]

oh and can you have a poll with more than one choice/

[etp777]

All of the above? Exercise should be an option too. Know people that that's sole reason they dance.

[LucyDiamond]

All of the above

[Sunshines Partner]

All of the above.

[Laura]

All of the above.

[NielsenE]

For me, I'd have to say equal parts B+C. (I love competition, but I don't think I match any of the definitions/axes under the Sport category)

[Katarzyna]

yes can you add all of the above to the poll?

[cornutt]

Other possible choices:

* Exercise
* Self-discipline
* Activity to do together with your spouse/SO
* Social activity
* Therapy
* Vocation (yes, I've heard that some people do make money off of it, although I personally don't know any ;))

[tanya_the_dancer]

I'd say all of above, too.

[Purr]

It's none of the above choices.

[Debra]

Simply my salvation. I supposemostly A & B.

[davedove]

I have to agree with those who said none of the above. I do it for fun, exercise, self-improvement, and social interaction.

[and123]

you forgot "money pit" :p

[Standarddancer]

I also vote for "all of the above" here

[latingal]

I myself like "money pit", but hey I'll go with self expression, exercise, self improvement, challenge, and a constant source of non-ending but intermitent frustration. *grin*

[fascination]

I simply cannot answer in those categories...for me it is definately equal parts sport and art...and part of the art is performing which I suppose could be called show...for me it is more, passion, vocation, expression, joy, expansion, giving, reaching...meh...I just cant limit such a huge thing

[_malakawa_]

I simply cannot answer in those categories...for me it is definately equal parts sport and art...and part of the art is performing which I suppose could be called show...for me it is more, passion, vocation, expression, joy, expansion, giving, reaching...meh...I just cant limit such a huge thing


:notworth:

[Becca]

I vote for 'life'.

[Natalka]

That's a hard question...but if I had to pick one only: sport

[waltzguy]

all of the above, percentage of each depends on who I'm dancing with

[wooh]

The poll makes me sad, that so many pick sport. The more "sporty" ice skating has gotten, the less I love it. "Yippeee for octuple axel sow cow that didn't fit the music." I don't watch dancers to be impressed by their athleticism. I watch dancers to be moved by the art that they are able to create because of their athleticism.

[emeralddancer]

Well I picked sport because it was the one that fit the best. However I got into ballroom for SOOOO many reasons! Many of which were not here. Honestly with choosing just one it was difficult too.

[fascination]

sure wooh...and yet very athletic people who put the considerable time and effort into what it takes to be extremely fit and thus take the dancing to a higher level b/c of it also have the same sort of appreciation for the physical demands of the highest levels of dancing...so I think it really is all about where your treasure lies

[BasicsFirst]

Amen, wooh! But let's not forget that many here consider it a "sport" simply by bringing into context the competition part of it. We've had that conversation already.

[fascination]

Amen, wooh! But let's not forget that many here consider it a "sport" simply by bringing into context the competition part of it. We've had that conversation already.
that isn't at all why I consider it both...for me the way I use my body requires a great deal of understanding of it and fitness and the fitness is alo part of the beauty

[Laura]

"Yippeee for octuple axel sow cow that didn't fit the music."
Oh gosh yes. Sometimes I think they should dispense with the music and the costumes altogether and make it more like diving: you submit a list of jumps, you do them one at a time in rounds, you are judged on each jump, high score wins.

[fascination]

agree that it can't be just about raw power with no art...but one should be able to appreciatae that sort of thing as well

[wooh]

sure wooh...and yet very athletic people who put the considerable time and effort into what it takes to be extremely fit and thus take the dancing to a higher level b/c of it also have the same sort of appreciation for the physical demands of the highest levels of dancing...so I think it really is all about where your treasure lies

From what I've seen though (and I've been neither a top ballroom dancer nor a top ballet dancer, so feel free to correct me), ballet dancers put considerable time and effort into being extremely fit for the physical demands of their dance, but nobody calls ballet a sport. Nobody would call Baryshnikov unfit because he isn't an Olympic athlete. Ehh, who was the guy that called out all the Blackpool finalists for being too physical (or however he phrased it)? Maybe I should just jump on his bandwagon.:)
But then again, when my doctor asks if I've been working out, "Well I've been dancing." So I call it a sport when it suits me, guess I'm just a big hypocrite.:p

[hereKittyKitty]

I've dance with guys that think of it as a sport. I've danced with guys that think of it as art. I prefer the guys who think of it as art;)

[Laura]

But then again, when my doctor asks if I've been working out, "Well I've been dancing." So I call it a sport when it suits me, guess I'm just a big hypocrite.:p
You aren't a hypocrite. Ballroom dancing, like yoga, is a work-out. Yoga isn't a sport.

[fascination]

of course I have never been either, either ...but one would have to be blind not to call ballet dancers athletes who are artists...I suppose it is the definition of sport that is probably at issue here...to my mind, anything the highest level of which requires the sort of fitness you see on mikhail baryshnikov has an element of sport/athleticism to it...some art, like sitting and writing, certainly isn't a sport but to my mind (as you note) when I lose 40 pounds in 6 months dancing when I am already in a fitness routine...its a sport...again, I agree that for me the primary aspect of dance is the art...i started dancing becuase of the music and the emotion it evoked and the desire to express that through my body with another person...but along the way I learned that it was very physically demanding

[wooh]

:DCompetitive yoga! THAT would be awesome in the Olympics! Judging who had the "best" downward facing dog. Maybe get some "Xtreme" yoga into the X Games. (Do they still have the X Games?)

[fascination]

and again, I think it comes down to the definition of sport...and I also think it needn't be an either/or proposition but rather a both/and...at least for me...I certainly don't want brute force with no expression(well okay maybe in tango;), just kidding)...nor do I want...yawn...lots of fluff with no flight

[ChaChaMama]

I just like sparkly things. ;)



Sparkly costumes, the sparkling wit of my partner, sparkly jewelry, glitzy weekends in fun cities (or cities that become fun when dancers are in them), perhaps a sparkling non-alcoholic beverage to celebrate being alive.

I think this poll needs to be amended. ;) ;) ;)

[wooh]

Sport 9
Art 6
Show 1
Sparkle 1
:)

[fascination]

we also had one vote for money pit

[wooh]

If we added money pit to the poll, nothing else would get any votes!:p
I think that's the one thing we can ALL agree on!

[Laura]

I like it 'cause it gets me out of the house.

[danceronice]

The poll makes me sad, that so many pick sport. The more "sporty" ice skating has gotten, the less I love it. "Yippeee for octuple axel sow cow that didn't fit the music." I don't watch dancers to be impressed by their athleticism. I watch dancers to be moved by the art that they are able to create because of their athleticism.

Nitpick some people had to know was coming--it's "Salchow." It SOUNDS like "sow cow", but it's named for its inventor, Ulrich Salchow (it's also a PITA, at least for me.) And the more I learn of jumping the more I appreciate that skaters can't devote EVERYTHING to the music. Internal timing on jumps is a very tricky thing. *I* get more annoyed with the IJS somewhat rewarding the Gumby freaks who can pull their ankle over their head, which is not a skating skill, it's being born suited to Cirque du Soleil.

So, anyway. I checked sport but I disagree with the definition/aim of sport. I consider skating a sport as well (logically enough, as it is) but I don't compete against other people. I do test stream skating and am only competing against myself. I don't win anything but a little paper card and the right to move up to try harder tests. Likewise in dance--I'm challenging myself to do skills I never thought I could. Success is when I achieve something, however briefly, that I couldn't do before, whether it's managing a perfect five-step mohawk MITF pattern or managing the fallaway in tango without getting in my pro's way. The difference is because dance provides an opportunity for me (a non-elite) to compete in a meaningful way, I can sometimes get a measurement of my abilities against other people. And have wicked good fun doing it, too.

And I love the performing aspect--ask my Rhythm Pro! I'm one of those weird people who dances better with an audience because I've got someone to perform for. In skating, I've only done one showcase and I want desperately to do more because I love being in front of a crowd.

They're sports, first and foremost--athletic challenges requiring people to train their bodies to do things they are not naturally inclined to do. But they are sports with a heavy artistic element. That's why I like them.

[cornutt]

That's the great thing about dancing. It's whatever you want it to be at any given moment. :D

[LucyDiamond]

That's the great thing about dancing. It's whatever you want it to be at any given moment. :D
Well said!

[dancingirldancing]

Yes all of the above. We are not helping are we :)

[NoDayButToday]

Leaning towards art & show, but I'm going to say all of the above.

[Nik]

For me its a hobby to fill up my free time. :)

[jennyisdancing]

In relation to this thread, does the number of votes for 'sport' explain why there was so little social dancing available at a ballroom comp I recently attended? It was the first time I had attended a serious ballroom comp (North American Dancesport). When the Sat. evening comps ended, the music stopped, everyone left, and they closed down for the night at about 11 p.m.

That was stunning to me, is that a normal situation? I am more familiar with WCS, salsa and hustle events, and at those, people dance all night, long after the contests are over. With ballroom, is it that more of the people are extremely comp focused and don't enjoy social dance for its own sake? Just curious.

[GJB]

Yes, there is usually very little social dancing at ballroom comps. I'm not sure why.

[danceronice]

Personally, the comps I've been to, if I am still there when they close the ballroom at the last heat--I don't want to dance, I want to go back to my room and sleep. (Or at Yankee, scarily, get in my car and drive ten miles home.) While I'm not generally one of them, I know plenty of people who compete that also like social dancing, it's just competitions take so much energy at the end of the day, it's time to either go to sleep or hit the bar, not dance more.

[waltzguy]

With ballroom, is it that more of the people are extremely comp focused and don't enjoy social dance for its own sake? Just curious.

I believe that ballroom, especially at high levels, is less socially engaging than WCS, salsa, AT, country, etc. Perhaps this is why ballroom is viewed by some as snobbish. Ballroom also tends to be more routine-oriented than the other types, like for comps, making it less socially engaging.

I am speaking from personal experience. I started in the social ballroom community, then moved into a competitive level. I do not go to social dancing much anymore, the enthusiasm for socials has declined.

This is only my opinion and is not meant to offend anyone.

[jennyisdancing]

Personally, the comps I've been to, if I am still there when they close the ballroom at the last heat--I don't want to dance, I want to go back to my room and sleep. (Or at Yankee, scarily, get in my car and drive ten miles home.) While I'm not generally one of them, I know plenty of people who compete that also like social dancing, it's just competitions take so much energy at the end of the day, it's time to either go to sleep or hit the bar, not dance more.

Okay, two points:
One, at the ballroom event I attended, the people in the audience were not competitors. They were spectators and were sitting all evening - so I would think they would have energy to do some dancing after the comps were finished. So I was referring to that in my question.

Two, at salsa, swing and hustle events, even the top pros do a lot of social dancing - sometimes hours of it, after they spent an entire day teaching workshops and competing. How are they able to do that? Is ballroom more demanding?

[and123]

Is it even an option at most ballroom comps to hang around and social dance? Don't they pretty much shut down the music and kick you out after the events are over?

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Is it even an option at most ballroom comps to hang around and social dance? Don't they pretty much shut down the music and kick you out after the events are over?
Most of the comps to which I've been ended at midnight or later. I think sleep took precedence for everyone.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

In relation to this thread, does the number of votes for 'sport' explain why there was so little social dancing available at a ballroom comp I recently attended? It was the first time I had attended a serious ballroom comp (North American Dancesport). When the Sat. evening comps ended, the music stopped, everyone left, and they closed down for the night at about 11 p.m.

That was stunning to me, is that a normal situation? I am more familiar with WCS, salsa and hustle events, and at those, people dance all night, long after the contests are over. With ballroom, is it that more of the people are extremely comp focused and don't enjoy social dance for its own sake? Just curious.
Was there general dancing in between heats? The last comp I went to, every three heats or so, there'd be 3-5 songs for general dancing (at least until the comp was clearly running behind). The floor was packed - and this was a good sized floor. Most terrifying social viennese waltz I've ever experienced. :shock:

There's a much greater separation between social and competitive dancing in ballroom than in the other dances, e.g., jack & jills are much more rare (and when they do, the results carry little of the weight that they might in, say, the WCS community). Perhaps it's somewhat self-reinforcing. People improve to the point where there are few or no dancers at their level with whom to dance socially. They leave social dancing for competition, so there's no one left to inspire the next set of up-and-comers to stick with social dancing.

[fascination]

it seems to depend on the # of entries at a comp and then consequently corresponds often to the calibre of the comp...if it is a comp with alot of entries, there simply isn't time...social dances are put out there to kill time if someone isn't costumed up... but rarely is it part of the schedule anymore unless part of a pre-or post party...though I also have to say that for many dance weary competitors that is just fine...(I am not one of them...I never get tired of dancing)...I like the way heritage handled it...they had a small floor in their dining area so you could dance before or after you ate and that was so nice

[jennyisdancing]

Was there general dancing in between heats? The last comp I went to, every three heats or so, there'd be 3-5 songs for general dancing (at least until the comp was clearly running behind). The floor was packed - and this was a good sized floor. Most terrifying social viennese waltz I've ever experienced. :shock:

There's a much greater separation between social and competitive dancing in ballroom than in the other dances, e.g., jack & jills are much more rare (and when they do, the results carry little of the weight that they might in, say, the WCS community). Perhaps it's somewhat self-reinforcing. People improve to the point where there are few or no dancers at their level with whom to dance socially. They leave social dancing for competition, so there's no one left to inspire the next set of up-and-comers to stick with social dancing.

To answer your question, yes there was a bit of general dancing between heats. But even then, relatively few people got up to dance (although I did). Again, I'm curious as to the reason - do the spectators feel intimidated about social dancing because they know they won't look like the pros? Or are many of the ballroom comp spectators non-dancers, i.e. they enjoy watching dancing but don't know how to do it themselves? (BTW I didn't expect the lack of social dancing because on those PBS ballroom shows, you always see a crowded social floor at the end; I guess that was somewhat misleading ;))

There's a much greater separation between social and competitive dancing in ballroom than in the other dances, e.g., jack & jills are much more rare (and when they do, the results carry little of the weight that they might in, say, the WCS community). Perhaps it's somewhat self-reinforcing. People improve to the point where there are few or no dancers at their level with whom to dance socially. They leave social dancing for competition, so there's no one left to inspire the next set of up-and-comers to stick with social dancing.

This explanation makes the most sense. Probably part of the reason that WCS pros social dance a lot, is a) to practice lead-and-follow skills as much as possible, and b) dance with many different partners, some of whom may end up being assigned to them in future jack-and-jills.

I think it would be really interesting to see jack-and-jill comps in ballroom. It would open up ballroom more to people whose main goal is to enjoy themselves socially without spending huge time and money on coaching and costumes.

[Laura]

For me its a hobby to fill up my free time. :)
So your Latin is a hobby to fill up the time for when you aren't Standard dancing, or is it vice-versa? Now I know why some dancers are 10-dancers -- they needed a hobby for when they weren't dancing :)

[Laura]

When the Sat. evening comps ended, the music stopped, everyone left, and they closed down for the night at about 11 p.m.

That was stunning to me, is that a normal situation?
It's normal. So many pros do Pro/Am, and Pro/Am heats can start as early as 7am, that everyone packs up and goes off to sleep as soon as things are over for the night. And if you're working at the comp you often need to be on the job an hour before the first heat, so if the next day's Pro/Am heats start at 7am that means you have to be "at work" at 6, which means getting up at 5 or so after the comp getting over at 11 (or 12 or 1). So many comps start on Thursday now and run through until Sunday, the schedule can get really grueling.

[Laura]

Yes, there is usually very little social dancing at ballroom comps. I'm not sure why.
Scheduling mostly.

[Laura]

To answer your question, yes there was a bit of general dancing between heats. But even then, relatively few people got up to dance (although I did). Again, I'm curious as to the reason - do the spectators feel intimidated about social dancing because they know they won't look like the pros? Or are many of the ballroom comp spectators non-dancers, i.e. they enjoy watching dancing but don't know how to do it themselves?
This also could be a location/community based question. I know that two of the local comps I go to have *packed* floors of people social dancing when there are general dances between heats in the evening.

[danceronice]

This also could be a location/community based question. I know that two of the local comps I go to have *packed* floors of people social dancing when there are general dances between heats in the evening.

Likewise. Even then I generally don't, and I certainly wouldn't expect my pros to dance with me during general dancing unless it was a warmup for an upcoming heat. And by the end of the night, I've usually been there since oh-dark-thirty and just want to head to bed!

[Laura]

And by the end of the night, I've usually been there since oh-dark-thirty and just want to head to bed!I'm usually dying to take my shoes off -- and often already have. :)

[Nik]

I think people go to competitions to watch, and they go to social parties to dance.

But I was at Empire State Championships and there was A LOT of social dancing.

Pros are not gonna dance socially at comps between rounds becaue they are probably dancing after the break where they have the social dancing. If they are not dancing that night then most of the time they do dance with students in the breaks.

BUT, take ohio for example, they had a room that played music until 4am and almost everynight there was people there dancing the whole time. Sat night almost all the pros went to dance and it was a lot of fun.

And the North American Championships was not a very big competition.

[danceronice]

I'm usually dying to take my shoes off -- and often already have. :)

Oh, tell me about it! At Yankee I was about ready to die by the time awards were called (at our studio we stay in full costume until awards are over and that includes shoes--I knew if I took them off they weren't going back on, so on they stayed.) I got out of those shoes the minute I was off the floor! That pair was so painful I seriously considered dancing my scholarship in a brand-new pair. Those are so much nicer than the old ones, but even they get to be a bit much after three or four hours.

[samina]

I danced a hustle socially at one comp. And there was some nice dancing at the pro after-party for the Eastern Dancesport comp in Boston. But other than that, hasn't come up in my experience. The chance for a bit of after-hours dancing at ohio sounds like something fun to look forward to!

As for feet holding up...my standard comp shoes are comfy and I wear slippers in between latin heats, so...body & spirit willing...I'd generally be up for a little social dancing if it came up!

[wooh]

In relation to this thread, does the number of votes for 'sport' explain why there was so little social dancing available at a ballroom comp I recently attended? It was the first time I had attended a serious ballroom comp (North American Dancesport). When the Sat. evening comps ended, the music stopped, everyone left, and they closed down for the night at about 11 p.m.

That was stunning to me, is that a normal situation? I am more familiar with WCS, salsa and hustle events, and at those, people dance all night, long after the contests are over. With ballroom, is it that more of the people are extremely comp focused and don't enjoy social dance for its own sake? Just curious.

Because competitive ballroom dancers worry about social dancing ruining their competitive dancing.:p (See the majillion previous threads on that.) One of these days I want to go to a country western comp or a WCS comp. Just to see how it compares to a ballroom comp. Would be fun to compare and contrast.
On other matters, YAY!!! for art taking the lead! Woot!!

[hereKittyKitty]

Because competitive ballroom dancers worry about social dancing ruining their competitive dancing.:p (See the majillion previous threads on that.) One of these days I want to go to a country western comp or a WCS comp. Just to see how it compares to a ballroom comp. Would be fun to compare and contrast.
On other matters, YAY!!! for art taking the lead! Woot!!

I don't worry about social dancing versus my competitive dancing affecting my performance with the exception of my back. I've had many troubles and prefer to keep them at a minimum. One of my worst injuries came from a "teacher training class" where I was the demonstrator for tango. The new teacher tried to lead a head flick and cracked my back in the process...not good. So now I'm understandably cautious.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Because competitive ballroom dancers worry about social dancing ruining their competitive dancing.:p (See the majillion previous threads on that.) One of these days I want to go to a country western comp or a WCS comp. Just to see how it compares to a ballroom comp. Would be fun to compare and contrast.
On other matters, YAY!!! for art taking the lead! Woot!!
I think it would be really, really cool to see something like this (Arjay-Melissa-Deborah at New Years Dancing eve in Boston (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7A9PhOsAog)) in the ballroom community. :)

[Laura]

Interesting that you mentioned them...Arjay started out at what is now Cheryl Burke Dance. He and I used to be in a group class that David Weise & Valentina used to teach. Arjay did Pro/AM Standard and Latin briefly with Valentina and was wonderful. He and Melissa also briefly did Amateur Standard.

[jennyisdancing]

Interesting that you mentioned them...Arjay started out at what is now Cheryl Burke Dance. He and I used to be in a group class that David Weise & Valentina used to teach. Arjay did Pro/AM Standard and Latin briefly with Valentina and was wonderful. He and Melissa also briefly did Amateur Standard.

Many WCS pros have ballroom training.

Because competitive ballroom dancers worry about social dancing ruining their competitive dancing.:razz: (See the majillion previous threads on that.)

I will have to check those other threads - though I don't see how social dancing "ruins" anything. If you have trained well and properly, the occasional social dance won't make you unlearn all your good habits.

One of these days I want to go to a country western comp or a WCS comp. Just to see how it compares to a ballroom comp. Would be fun to compare and contrast.


Do it! Being that WCS is my primary dance, I did enjoy the contrast of attending a ballroom event. I would say the ballroom pro comps are more impressive technically, and of course the ladies' costumes are much prettier. WCS comps are more about musicality and connection, and in the jack-and-jill it's also about lead-follow and improvisational skills.

[Standarddancer]

I don't worry about social dancing versus my competitive dancing affecting my performance with the exception of my back. I've had many troubles and prefer to keep them at a minimum. One of my worst injuries came from a "teacher training class" where I was the demonstrator for tango. The new teacher tried to lead a head flick and cracked my back in the process...not good. So now I'm understandably cautious.

Do you own studios in Atlanta? So sorry this happened to you:( oh those new teachers:( that new teacher should pay for your massage or physical theraphy;) head flick is tricky in tango and not easy for newbies, so bad some advanced gents don't even lead that correctly.

[hereKittyKitty]

Do you own studios in Atlanta? So sorry this happened to you:( oh those new teachers:( that new teacher should pay for your massage or physical theraphy;) head flick is tricky in tango and not easy for newbies, so bad some advanced gents don't even lead that correctly.

No, I was just helping out with the class. The teacher who was training the instructors was really good and he made the head flick look effortless. So the newer instructors wanted to try it and he cautioned them about it. He told them it was trickier than it looked and gave them a few instructions about how to lead it. I knew the trainee I was dancing with and didn't think anything about dancing with him.
Anyway ever since then, I'm cautious about who I dance with. If I want my back cracked I'll go to a chiropractor!

[Standarddancer]

oh then totally not worth it, I thought you had to do it for your own studio. You are right we all have to be careful who we dance with, I've seen here amateur girls dancing with lower level guys for money and being throwed/pushed/dragged all over the floor for some extra cash while running the risk of injuring their body/feet/knees, totoally not worthy it; we need a healthy body for dancing and comps.

[tsb]

I will have to check those other threads - though I don't see how social dancing "ruins" anything.


it doesn't - it merely reflects the bias of the poster.

ironically, dance as competition with syllabi, etc. comes as a direct result of the british lower classes having developed an inferiority complex and desiring to imitate the intelligentsia who danced *socially*, per richard powers at stanford.