Tango Hold Issue -what's happening?

[Ithink]

So my partner and I have this issue that only occurs when when we dance tango. Namely, his hand just starts sliding across my back to the point where 30 seconds into it (and sometimes even way less) it comes all the way across so that his finger tips touch the right side of my waist (and it starts in the typical place of hold, below the left shoulderblade). We've tried to figure out how and where it's happening in an effort to stop it from happening but we've so far been unsuccessful. It *seems* to start happening in promenade and given that our routine starts in PP, well, the problem starts pretty early in our tango routine... Then, once we get going and it intensifies, it becomes harder to fix mid-dance so our hold is just not ideal throughout our routine...

Has anyone ever had a similar issue? How have you fixed it? What do you think makes it happen? FYI, it never happens in other dances, just tango, so we figure it must be due to the uniqueness of the tango hold. We're taking the problem to our coach today but I thought I'd post this question here as well in hopes that maybe someone here has dealt with it and found an easy fix:)

My partner thinks it's because my back is really narrow and his hand is really big. I suspect it might be something else;)

[atk]

I'm sure you'll get better answers, but I find that this happens when the woman doesn't connect with my arm - when she doesn't latch her frame onto mine.

[skwiggy]

Have you explored the possibility that it might be your position is too open (sides away from each other), especially in PP? Seems logical this would cause the slippage.

[Standarddancer]

Definitely not your back narrow or his hands too big...lol...

It's possible you are just too "in front of" him (connection being too square). Are you passing his center (your center ended up in the middle of his center or worse, ended up on his left side)? Try to keep yourself very much on his right side, hopefully this will help

[Ithink]

Well, for one, I am not sure what you mean by "latching on". If you mean connect my frame into his, then that is certainly what I am trying to do and the fact that it doesn't happen in the other dances, means that I am at least doing it in 4 of the 5 dances...

As for whether or not we're too open, maybe we are but I am not sure how being too open can cause the said "slippage". I guess I can't picture that being open would have that particular consequence... Sure, lots of other bad consequences, but this one? I guess it's a possibility... but I think it's also harder to be too open in tango because the hold by its nature is more closed and we, again, don't seem to have that problem at all in the other dances where the danger of being "too open" seems to be more pronounced, to me anyway:)

[Ithink]

Not passing his center and trying very hard to be more left. In fact, my partner also posited that maybe me trying to "fix" the slippage by trying to be more left (almost trying to move his arm more out with my body) is execerbating the problem...

One more possibility we considered: in the other four dances the connection is higher, at my left shoulder blade so my partner seems to think that his hand not slipping in those is the effect of him having "something to grab onto", i.e. my shoulderblade. In tange, the hold is lower, on a flatter part of the back, so it just slips across because there is nothing to stop it... I know, we tried to come up with all the silly and non-silly reasons:)

Keep 'em coming guys!!:)

[skwiggy]

You are also a bit more "wrapped around" him in the tango hold. So while some parts of the hold are more closed, it also encourages other parts to be even more open. I personally find it very easy to be too open on the left side of the partnership in tango (man's left, lady's right), ESPECIALLY in PP. If you picture the sides on the left side of the partnership moving away from each other, and the arms staying the same relative to your own respective bodies, then to me it seems like the arm slipping would absolutely be the natural result.

I also think Standarddancer makes an excellent logical suggestion as well. I would try both of those things and see what happens.

[cornutt]

Your partner's not maintaining his right-side lead.

Or, he has freakishly long arms. :D

[madmaximus]

5 Potential Reasons (each or all together).

1. You're not turning to your promenade at the correct vertical axis for promenades--your left ball.

2. Your partner is not turning at his correct vertical axis for promenades--a couple of inches(+/-) past the edge of his right hip.

3. He's not compensating for the promenade position with his right elbow and forearm--should open slightly so your torso and his hand doesn't slip during the entry to promenade (most common beginner mistake is to open the upper arm at the shoulder).

4. Foot position prior to entering promenade (and during promenade for that matter) is incorrect.

5. Improper frame positioning relative to each other (the whole lady on the rightER side--or more offset--to the man thing)

That, or he just likes your right side... :)





m

[cshorte]

I sometimes have that problem, Dan Calloway says it usually occurs when one or both persons positions are too open in Promenade... I also noticed that it happens when I lead too forcibly/much

He then went on to fix my partners' position (i think mainly to clarify to me how linking to PP effects alignment when leading) and I havn't really had that problem since... so long as I have my arm given to my partner just as you described in that lesson you gave me a while ago ;)

<-- limited exp with the problem but thats what i know ^.^

[skwiggy]

Dan Calloway says it usually occurs when one or both persons positions are too open in Promenade...

It's nice to know Dan Calloway and I see eye to eye on this issue. ;)

[cshorte]

It's nice to know Dan Calloway and I see eye to eye on this issue. ;)

lolz :D

[Warren J. Dew]

As for whether or not we're too open, maybe we are but I am not sure how being too open can cause the said "slippage".

Here's how it happens. His right arm starts somewhat around your back, though not across your spine.

Now you turn to promenade, opening up. If you open up your upper bodies, his left shoulder will open away from you and his right shoulder will come towards you. Meanwhile, your left shoulder will go towards him a bit, likely around or even behind his right shoulder a bit.

If he allowed his right hand to remain in contact with the same patch of your back, his right arm would follow your left shoulder, putting his right elbow behind his right shoulder. This results in an ugly and uncomfortable line.

To avoid this, likely what he's doing is keeping his right elbow and hand constant relative to his own shoulder line. Since his right shoulder is coming forward - counterclockwise - his right hand likewise moves counterclockwise, going further around your back. Meanwhile, you're rotating your back clockwise, which puts your left side further into his arm and your right side even closer to his right hand. His hand is likely across your spine at this point.

Then, when you come out of promenade, he allows his right hand and arm to move with your back. Normally this is the correct thing to do, but in this case, it leaves the hand across your spine, which leads to the position you don't like.

The ideal solution is to keep the shoulders strictly parallel at all times, even in promenade. That doesn't work as well with the arched back technique as it does with the straight spine technique, though. Alternatives are to cheat by having the gentleman keep his right arm and hand slightly off your back so it will slide back to the starting position when you close from promenade, or just accept the position and live with it.

[samina]

Ithink, are you taking enuf space for yourself over there in your nook to his right? If you don't, if that is collapsing as you dance, it's going to effect how far around you his hand can go. If you use up that space like you're resting back against a big comfy couch, his arm & hand will likely not be able to wrap around you so much.

[Joe]

This happens all the time in PP when the position is too open. PP is actually very closed in the topline, where the base is more open--there should be very little change in the topline between closed and PP, but you see people have big changes all the time. The man takes his left side away from the lady, and she takes her right side away from him, because the degree of "twist" between top and bottom required to maintain proper PP is not very comfortable if you are not very flexible (which I am not). When that happens, the space between the man's left side and lady's right side gets bigger, and the other side has to get smaller to compensate, and then the man's right hand slides across the lady's back.

Our coach is continually telling us to dance "sternum bone to sternum bone."

It's possible that it's just magnified in tango because of the more "compact" frame, but if you pay attention I'm sure you will notice it to a lesser degree in other dances.

[tangotime]

and his right shoulder will come towards you. Meanwhile, your left shoulder will go towards him a bit, likely around or even behind his right shoulder a bit.
Snip



Scriv. must be turning over in his grave !!

First.. lets leave the " shldrs " out of the description, and discuss the body and arm.....
in reality the man is moving his left side towards the lady in rotation to the right.. whereupon he ceases to commence the rotation ,and allows the lady to continue to Prom. thru the compression placed thru the hand and arm to create that position.. the right side should remain neutral and stretched . Also often neglected, is a minimal "lift" of the outside non supporting left and right side of man and lady to maintain line and drape , after the position has been attained .

One of the main factors for " slippage " is an insufficient amount of compression in the hold when moving from lady in line to prom.

Add to this, the sometimes effect of the man attempting to also dance into a similar position.

Without actually seeing exactly what is happening, these are at best, educated guesses.. there could be other factors involved.. foot placement, speed of action etc .

One other very important detail.. the hips should not touch .

[Standarddancer]

What Joe said about makes sense, I'm also thinking is it also possible that you end up too much behind him in PP? Lady end up too much behind men in PP could causing lady too much into men's right arm (thus causing his right hand accross to your right side); also if lady behind men too much in PP slows down the lady from moving into next step.

[Warren J. Dew]

It's possible that it's just magnified in tango because of the more "compact" frame, but if you pay attention I'm sure you will notice it to a lesser degree in other dances.

I think it's less likely to result in the gentleman's right hand sliding in the other dances. Part of that is the "less compact" frame - the gentleman's right arm is more open, so the elbow provides more flexibility - and part is that the hand position more strictly defined, so if it does slide, it's more likely to be noticed.

Scriv. must be turning over in his grave !!

Note that what I'm describing there is the (incorrect) action that results in the problem.

[cshorte]

Our coach is continually telling us to dance "sternum bone to sternum bone."

The few times I have danced with swiggy I noticed that connection, with her it makes me feel secure :)

unfortunatly I have no idea how to replicate it on my own and trying to do it with others usually feels uncomfortable :P





What Joe said about makes sense, I'm also thinking is it also possible that you end up too much behind him in PP?

Being to far behind the man, I feel is the same as saying the man has taken away his right arm, or the lady is not filling in the space given which causes the arm to slide down the ladies back. While in PP

When this happens to me, it is usually immediatiatly noticable in next figure as I either end up cutting the lady off and/or leave her behind.

[cornutt]

What Joe said about makes sense, I'm also thinking is it also possible that you end up too much behind him in PP?

I was thinking the opposite actually: they are ending up dead square in PP. That might allow the lead's topline to rotate too much with his head, which would bring his hand farther around the follow's back. (It does wind up opened up too much, but that's just a sympton of the real problem, which is loss of the offset. You could see a similar problem if you stood dead square in closed frame; the lead's right hand would wind up going way around.

[skwiggy]

The few times I have danced with swiggy I noticed that connection, with her it makes me feel secure :)

Good to know I'm seemingly doing what my coach is always preaching! :banana:

unfortunatly I have no idea how to replicate it on my own

Perhaps you should try some lessons with my coach. ;)

[Kitty]

There may be very many different things wrong that we can't determine wihtout looking..
It sounds very plausible to me that you are too far behind him in PP or too open in the upper body in promenade, that would cause the problem... but could be that there are totally different reasons..

care to post a video for us to critisize?

if the problem is everywhere, not just promenade, then more likely is that the solution would be for your partner to give his arms more forward and concentrate on his right arm staying forward where ever your back is..

women learn this aspect a bit earlier, that their arms "belong to partner"

for men, the emphasis on this aspect comes a bit later in their training, because first everyone is concerned wiht getting their arms connected to their own backs..

but they do need to do practically same thing as women, regarding "giving arms to partner". the hand on lady's back should stay on lady's back no matter what. After the man has developed the connection of his arms to his own back, it might be time to concentrate on "giving his arm to the lady" (especially the forearm, from elbow to hand)

this will result in a more flexible connection thru the arms. the arms would be together more, even when bodies might come apart, or even if position gets messed up.

[Standarddancer]

I was thinking the opposite actually: they are ending up dead square in PP. That might allow the lead's topline to rotate too much with his head, which would bring his hand farther around the follow's back. (It does wind up opened up too much, but that's just a sympton of the real problem, which is loss of the offset. You could see a similar problem if you stood dead square in closed frame; the lead's right hand would wind up going way around.

I did mention the possiblity of being too square to each other in my early post, but original poster says that's not the issue, she's not passing man's center and she's very aware of being left (staying in man's right side); so I try a different approach:)

Kitty is absolutely right, there might be other things not working out correctly and impact each other, it is really a difficult task for us to "imagine" the possibilities that caused this problem here without seeing them.

[cornutt]

I did mention the possiblity of being too square to each other in my early post, but original poster says that's not the issue, she's not passing man's center and she's very aware of being left (staying in man's right side); so I try a different approach:)


Oh yeah, sorry about that. Then yes, in that case, I'd say the problem is probably being too open in PP. My instructor is trying hard to get me to stay more closed in PP, on general principle. But I don't have to worry about the problem being discussed here, because I don't have freakishly long arms. ;)

[Some guy]

I used to have this exact same problem. It was fixed very quickly by an amazing female coach.

Take hold with your partner for Viennese Waltz. Ask him to release his right hand from your back and hang it down dead to the floor. You do the same with your left hand.

Ask him to start doing reverse turns in Viennese Waltz. See if he can lead you only using his left SIDE (not left arm). Usually you will notice that he turns within himself, and doesn't stay in front of you. Ask him to stay completely on his LEFT SIDE by projecting his left side forward and try again. Make sure he doesn't use his left ARM to lead you.

If he can successfully lead you into continuous reverse turns and stay in front of you the entire time then the problem has been fixed. If he can successfully do this, that means he's projecting a strong left side, and that automatically "relieves" pressure from his right hand and makes it much more adaptible to your position instead of staying rigid.

Ask him to "remember" that left side projected feeling, take hold in Tango, and try dancing again. You should notice that his right arm is much more comfortable and "breathes" better.

[Joe]

That doesn't solve the problem with PP, though. There is a strong body "twist" in PP that just doesn't happen in Viennese (since there's obviously no PP).

[Joe]

I think it's less likely to result in the gentleman's right hand sliding in the other dances.
"Lesser degree" is an analog for "less likely." I know it happens to me in my swing dances, so I'm pretty sure it's going to happen for the OP's partner. The hand slips a little, but it returns to position. However, in the OP's tango, the hand slips and keeps on slipping, which I think could be classified as a "greater degree."

[tangotime]

That doesn't solve the problem with PP, though. There is a strong body "twist" in PP that just doesn't happen in Viennese (since there's obviously no PP).

I think " rotation " would be far more accurate.. if the feet are placed in the correct position emanating from "link " entry, then the opening to prom. becomes a more natural action ,being a causal effect of diminished speed by man ( noted by Scriv. as Dash-- Dot )... always remembering ,this is a BODY action dance .

[Some guy]

If a strong left side is projected by the man the right hand will not creep into the woman's space unless she does something with it to put it there.

A good male will never have to worry about his hand creeping around the lady's back if he maintains a strong left side projection. Even when dancing with a beginner lady, a strong left side by the man will keep the lady from over-rotating away from the man which is the other cause of the hand creeping around the back.

Tangotime covered what the body is supposed to do.

[Standarddancer]

I think the exercise some guy suggested is worth trying. PP position also requires strong left side projection, at least that's what I recall from last coaching lessons from a world class dance master

[Joe]

What I'm saying is that PP requires significant twist (if you want to call it rotation, fine, whatever) in the torso to maintain that "left side forward" position, and doing the exercise in Viennese won't do a thing to train one in that feeling so that one becomes used to it. The excercise can demonstrate to a person that always maintaining the left side forward will keep the lady in the right position, but only exercising in PP will help the issue in PP.

[tangotime]

What I'm saying is that PP requires significant twist (if you want to call it rotation, fine, whatever) in the torso to maintain that "left side forward" position,
.


NO it does not... as I stated , the placing of the foot positions, combined with the rotation of the mans body to the right ,is what achieves and enables the " position " to be attained.

That is NOT a twist.. the hip and shldr should remain in the same alignment of left side lead thruout the figure .

It is a common mistake in Tango ( and sometimes in the" swing dances " , to use distorted body actions to gain a result.

The very word " twist " has a distincly different connotation when applied in dance terms ( as in Nat. twist turn, and even then, its more about " body than feet )

I should add.. as an Examiner, if you gave me that description of the mechanics of a Prom. I would begin to Q your understanding of the concepts.

[Some guy]

Joe, is the "twist" you're talking about the preparatory wind up before promenade? Even then, like you said, a strong left side is mandatory and yes, the Viennese Waltz exercise I described is a quick way to make the man realize just how much left side strength he needs. Most men I've shown this trick to had no clue just how much power had to be transferred to the left side. I myself was in shock when my female coach made me do it. The folks I've helped have told me that the exercise lobotomizes their brain and makes them realize just how important a strong left side for the man is. ...not to mention the fact that their partners thank me profusely for the elimination of neck and shoulder pain inflicted on them by excessively strong right side leads. Most men are taught to dance with their right side which is usually the cause of men losing the common center and turning within themselves. If a man stays strong on his left side, it will be virtually impossible for the woman to be out of place or for the man's right hand to find it's way around the woman as was originally described to be the problem.

[Joe]

NO it does not... as I stated , the placing of the foot positions, combined with the rotation of the mans body to the right ,is what achieves and enables the " position " to be attained.

That is NOT a twist.. the hip and shldr should remain in the same alignment of left side lead thruout the figure .
So...what you're saying is that the only difference between closed position and PP is that solely the feet are turned left more in the latter (presumably being produced solely by rotation of the femur in the hip socket), and that there is NO difference in the relation of the hip and shoulder to one another?

[DanceMentor]

I think the exercise some guy suggested is worth trying. PP position also requires strong left side projection, at least that's what I recall from last coaching lessons from a world class dance master

I think this is an excellent point. And the left side projection is produced using the knees and the hips and the ribs. Any time you are going to "project" something to the left, bear in mind, you are probably also "projecting" something in the opposite direction in order to maintain balance and equilibrium.

So what are you projecting in the opposite direction? Well, I would say it is a body action that is based on the knees right hip, and even the left rib projected to the right. This action contributes to a more stable right side. For a little excercise we just did a 5 step with less or more projection. The less projection certainly contributed to a slipping right hand.

When thinking of "twisting" the torso, this makes the figure rotational, rather than directional, and it is this rotation that will contribute to a hand slip, especially in a dance like the tango that uses an abrupt stopping action, because the rotation cannot easily be stopped, while a directional action can.

[tangotime]

So...what you're saying is that the only difference between closed position and PP is that solely the feet are turned left more in the latter (presumably being produced solely by rotation of the femur in the hip socket), and that there is NO difference in the relation of the hip and shoulder to one another?


NO.. thats not what I am saying............................

LEFT?? .... the feet are turned to the right.. thats how the position is attained.. the dance is loosely called " pick up and place ".. how else is one going to get to Prom. posit. if one does NOT place the feet in the correct position to create prom ?.. the body rotation is, and should be, synched. with the feet . And, I would hope that the hip and shldr are in conjunction during the rotation.

And, in a normal closed posit. the mans feet are turned slightly to the left., caused by the stance .

The common mistake often made by amat. men at nov. level ( and above sometimes ) is to dance into Prom. and open up the left side, when in reality it retains its exact same position thruout,continuing to move fwd to the required amount of turn being created, and then allowing the LADY to create the " open door " .

I spent many yrs around Scriv. ( in class ,lectures and dems ), one of his main pet peeves, was this very topic, and this written format does not serve the visual explanation well.

[tangotime]

snip


When thinking of "twisting" the torso, this makes the figure rotational, rather than directional,




It is both to some degree.. rotation is turn, creating a new direction.

[DanceMentor]

It is both to some degree.. rotation is turn, creating a new direction.

Yes, I understand your point, and agree with it, but when you are "thinking" direction, there is a clearer end point, and the hand is less likely to slip, right?

[tangotime]

Yes, I understand your point, and agree with it, but when you are "thinking" direction, there is a clearer end point, and the hand is less likely to slip, right?



If the right amount of compression ( right hand, lower forearm ) is not maintained, yes . Ladies body positioning can also contribute to problem.. like i stated... without a visual..its like describing an elephant to a blind person .

[skwiggy]

So after this long discussion, Ithink, did you ever follow up with your coach? What did she identify as the issue? Did it fix the problem?

[vcolfari]

NO.. thats not what I am saying............................

LEFT?? .... the feet are turned to the right.. thats how the position is attained..

I'm confused by this. The feet are turned to the right in PP? If the link ends facing DW with right side slightly back, wouldn't the feet be turned to the left, relative to the body?

[Ithink]

The issue and the fix she identified is the usual issue/fix she has for us - not enough of a lower back usage on the part of my partner to stabilize his topline and keep himself properly aligned. And also to only worry about his own dancing and stop taking care of me:)

So far it's better but it's not totally gone. We've also been working on how to fix it ourselves in practice and it's slowly getting better:) When his front and arms are relaxed and he is using his back to rotate and dances his own body instead of mine, it works better. The arm still moves but not nearly as much and we're able to get it back to where it's supposed to be while dancing better because we're both more relaxed and not tight...

[Standarddancer]

Great to hear that it's getting better:)

[tangotime]

I'm confused by this. The feet are turned to the right in PP? If the link ends facing DW with right side slightly back, wouldn't the feet be turned to the left, relative to the body?


No.. how can you retain " drape " and " wine glass " effect,with the feet turned out ?. Hopefully, my body is aligned at DW at completion, with my feet in the same direction . The common mistake of over rotation for the man ( to the left ) will result in such foot positions , and subsequently the following movement will affect the CBMP on step 2 dancing out of Prom., very often creating a " swing" action .
Irvine discussed this topic in one of his lectures, and noted that " the stillness " of the dance was being eroded .

[Angel HI]

Irvine discussed this topic in one of his lectures, and noted that " the stillness " of the dance was being eroded .

Ah, yes. Irvine's description of "monumental stillness". Loved it. Sadly, don't see it much, though.

[Joe]

The common mistake of over rotation for the man ( to the left ) will result in such foot positions
When does the man rotate to the left in PP?

[tangotime]

When does the man rotate to the left in PP?


On step 5 of a Nat. Prom. fallaway for e.g... And, even then, one should be careful not to over rotate the left side, think " slightly " .

The consideration of inside and outside actions in dance , are far too often ignored or mis understood .

With conventional " swing " being absent , due care should be observed , as in the 3rd step of a closed prom.

[Joe]

What is a Nat. Prom. Fallaway? A Fallaway Whisk?

[tangotime]

What is a Nat. Prom. Fallaway? A Fallaway Whisk?


No...its a figure that commences in Prom. and returns to that position at the end of the fallaway sequence( a right and left turning action ) , with 3 and 4, of a 4 step . Commence and finish DW .

[samina]

I just learned that figure this past week. I liked the way it felt. Simple but...tricky.

[tangotime]

I just learned that figure this past week. I liked the way it felt. Simple but...tricky.



wait until you add the O/s swivel and a 5 step end... you,ll luv that one

[samina]

nice. i'll ask my pro to bring it on... :)

[vcolfari]

No.. how can you retain " drape " and " wine glass " effect,with the feet turned out ?. Hopefully, my body is aligned at DW at completion, with my feet in the same direction . The common mistake of over rotation for the man ( to the left ) will result in such foot positions , and subsequently the following movement will affect the CBMP on step 2 dancing out of Prom., very often creating a " swing" action .
Irvine discussed this topic in one of his lectures, and noted that " the stillness " of the dance was being eroded .


You previously wrote that the feet were turned to the right to attain PP. My question concerned the (progressive) link. I am not familiar with the other figure you mentioned. In the link, specifically, are you saying that the feet are turned to the right?

[tangotime]

feet [/i]are turned to the right?


It would look very strange if your body went in one direction ( right ) whilst your feet remained left... think about it.. you are moving towards DW as you commence to turn.. ..

If you are still not convinced look at Rev techn for alignment and amount of turn ( 1/4 to the RIGHT ) this creates prom, which is a " position "

[ACtenDance]

There may be some confusion as to whether you're talking about the leader's part or the follower's part.

[vcolfari]

It would look very strange if your body went in one direction ( right ) whilst your feet remained left... think about it.. you are moving towards DW as you commence to turn.. ..

If you are still not convinced look at Rev techn for alignment and amount of turn ( 1/4 to the RIGHT ) this creates prom, which is a " position "

My question concerns the leader's movement/alignment. Are you referring to leader or follower? TBT does not have the leader "turning" to the right. The follower turns.

[vcolfari]

There may be some confusion as to whether you're talking about the leader's part or the follower's part.

I think you're right! I assumed that Joe was referring to the leader's part and this is why the subsequent suggestion by tangotime to turn the feet to the right was confusing.

[Ithink]

I am pretty sure TT was talking about the man's part, as was Joe... Most of this discussion, as it usually does;), has so far centered around the leader...

[tangotime]

There may be some confusion as to whether you're talking about the leader's part or the follower's part.


I assumed, maybe incorrrectly , it was a "mans " reference (?).. good point.. !

Just read the original, the lady was refering to the man, and asked what she thought HE may be doing wrong.. that was the problem I addressed ( i also did say something about the ladies positioning in th closed hold )

[tangotime]

I am pretty sure TT was talking about the man's part, as was Joe... Most of this discussion, as it usually does;), has so far centered around the leader...




I was .... lmao.... aint it the truth !

[madmaximus]

I distinctly remember writing some specifics about Promenade in another thread (or threads? about PP)--some moons ago.

[Somebody more adept or motivated can search for it, I suppose]

As I'd mentioned in those threads a common point of confusion (when talking about Prom.) is Promenade POSITION (and getting there--which presumably is what TT is addressing), and Promenade MOVEMENT (which some focus on).






m

[Angel HI]

Exactly, and to note that when dancing promenade, we must always remember what we refer to as the 3 Lines of Prom.
1. Partner Line
2. Direction (Prom) Line
3. Execution (Dance) Line
This would further explain the position of the body relative to the positions of the feet.

[tangotime]

I As I'd mentioned in those threads a common point of confusion (when talking about Prom.) is Promenade POSITION ...snip






Which I made abundantly clear in my post...# 54

[Joe]

I distinctly remember writing some specifics about Promenade in another thread (or threads? about PP)--some moons ago.

[Somebody more adept or motivated can search for it, I suppose]

As I'd mentioned in those threads a common point of confusion (when talking about Prom.) is Promenade POSITION (and getting there--which presumably is what TT is addressing), and Promenade MOVEMENT (which some focus on).

Truth. However, since the original post did not ask the question of getting into PP, my subsequent comments assumed that one is already in PP, and I stand by my comment that the (man's) feet are NOT pointed to the right in PP.

[tangotime]

Truth. However, since the original post did not ask the question of getting into PP, my subsequent comments assumed that one is already in PP, and I stand by my comment that the (man's) feet are NOT pointed to the right in PP.



Back Whisk to DC... Amer. style silver twinkles etc .. Yes...

And you say IF already in prom.. from what precede in tango ??.. please give me 1 figure

Intern. style Tango ,NO.. if danced from a Link moving along LOD DW...... are all the Pros. and the rev. techn. wrong ??

[Joe]

If my feet are pointed to the right, they are pointed at my partner...not where I want to go in PP.

[tangotime]

If my feet are pointed to the right, they are pointed at my partner...not where I want to go in PP.



But they ARE.. across in CBMP.. read the book !!.. do you not understand that there are no true fwd steps in Tango ?...

[vcolfari]

But they ARE.. across in CBMP.. read the book !!.. do you not understand that there are no true fwd steps in Tango ?...

If the man is "Facing DW" in PP at the end of the progressive link (according to TBT), and facing means the body and feet are in line, how can the feet be turned to the right in this position?

[Angel HI]

If the man is "Facing DW" in PP at the end of the progressive link (according to TBT), and facing means the body and feet are in line, how can the feet be turned to the right in this position?

Because DW specifically means slightly to the right of the LOD. (see earlier post http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=594123&postcount=62 )

[Warren J. Dew]

And you say IF already in prom.. from what precede in tango ??.. please give me 1 figure

Do you think there are different promenade positions depending on what entry you use? If not, why does the precede matter?

[vcolfari]

Because DW specifically means slightly to the right of the LOD. (see earlier post http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=594123&postcount=62 )

Yes, to the right of LOD (movement) but not to the right in relation to the body (position).

[tangotime]

Do you think there are different promenade positions depending on what entry you use? If not, why does the precede matter?


... . And yes, the prom position can be greatly affected by its preceeding fig. causing some of the problems identified by the original poster ( back whisk would be a good e.g. )


The poster had stated that his feet were pointing leftwards, and as you know, that is NOT the case from a link as described..

[Warren J. Dew]

The poster had stated that his feet were pointing leftwards, and as you know, that is NOT the case from a link as described..

I think "left" is a relative term. If I take a progressive link starting diagonal center near a corner, my feet will be pointing diagonal center, which would be "left" of the old line of dance, but "right" of the new line of dance.

If I take a link in the normal alignment, diagonal wall, my feet end up pointing diagonal wall. This is "right" of the line of dance, but I'm not sure whether that's why you call it "right".

If from that position, I draw an (imaginary) line from my head to the lady's head, I don't think that line will go diagonal wall; it will go towards the wall, even a bit against the line of dance. The way my feet are pointing will be "left" of that line. I'm pretty sure that's what Joe is talking about.

[tangotime]

If I take a link in the normal alignment, diagonal wall, my feet end up pointing diagonal wall. This is "right" of the line of dance, but I'm not sure whether that's why you call it "right".




It ( the feet ) yes ,pointing in that direction , rightwards.


( This topic as usual (:rolleyes:) has drifted from the original Q.." why was the arm slipping ?".. to.. a foot Q.)

The other poster stated his feet were turned to the left...THAT was my dispute.. we are aware that commencing and finishing sequences may bring about different alignments... that is an ancillary part of another Q.. and is not in dispute.. however.. the foot " turnout ", was very typical of what I used to see, when examining Br.level teachers /students who were unaware of concepts.

[Joe]

Because DW specifically means slightly to the right of the LOD.
However, if I am set up in PP, ready to take a step directly down LOD...while my feet may be facing DW, my torso is more or less parallel with LOD, and thus my feet are NOT pointing right. Directionality has nothing to do with LOD.

[Angel HI]

Well, yes, they are. But, I defer to TT's post http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=594684&postcount=74 . This is where we should be focused.