"Ideal Dancer" vs "Ideal Student Dancer"

[NielsenE]

In conversations with various people I've been coming across conflicting view points on what an "Ideal" amateur in a Pro-Am event should look like. In your opinion is there a difference in what the amateur should strive for relative to what a same gender pro would strive for?

[etp777]

nope. Iv'e said it before, and stick with idea, that my goal is to be as good, or better, than the pros dancing out there. Technique, styling, everything. Being a student makes me temper my goals timewise, but doesn't keep me from reaching for the top. Just will take me longer to get there. :)

[mamboqueen]

No..

[_malakawa_]

no difference.

[Larinda McRaven]

No difference... because even the pros are students. We just have a different source of income.

[LucyDiamond]

no difference

[Sunshines Partner]

No Difference

[syncopationator]

No difference... because even the pros are students. We just have a different source of income.

agree

[fascination]

so glad people are saying this b/c, no offense neilson, the question offends me

[and123]

Heck, I don't even think I quite understand the question. Sure, I've seen Pro-Am couples where I wondered which was which, but is that because the Pro is sub-par or because the Am is exceptional?

[njdancegirl]

In conversations with various people I've been coming across conflicting view points on what an "Ideal" amateur in a Pro-Am event should look like. In your opinion is there a difference in what the amateur should strive for relative to what a same gender pro would strive for?

Just wondering, what were some of those viewpoints of what an "Ideal" amateur should look like? I can't imagine not striving for what a pro strives for - to be your best...

[NielsenE]

I've had some people (and I'm not saying names or locations) implying that an ideal student dancer should be aiming more for complete clarity/definition. A sort of simplicity in the dancing. At the expense of "excitement" or light/shade contrast or individual styling.

I could almost buy it in the context of closed event (which is why I provided the options I did in the poll), but I've always felt there was no difference as well. And by using "ideal" as the modifier I was trying to avoid the notion of different paths leading to the same place.

[samina]

no diff. there are ams better than many pros... it's all relative.

[and123]

If you're saying that some students want flash rather than boring basics, then yes, I agree with you. A good judge will always spot inadequacies through the flash. I have seen simple basics win in Open events. I think there ought to be a balance between the two though. Some Open routines almost border on cabaret.

[latingal]

No difference here....

[njdancegirl]

If you're saying that some students want flash rather than boring basics, then yes, I agree with you. A good judge will always spot inadequacies through the flash. I have seen simple basics win in Open events. I think there ought to be a balance between the two though. Some Open routines almost border on cabaret.

Am with you on this, and123. A student first needs to learn basic technique - all the fancy styling in the world is not going to cover up for a poor foundation. But once all the groundwork is laid, don't see any reason why they can't strive for the same thing a pro strives for.

But will add that even at the syllabus level, a competitive student needs a bit of the "salt and pepper" as well to differentiate themselves beyond their good technique.

[and123]

Assuming they HAVE the good technique, yes. I see this a lot in collegiate comps. There are so darn many couples on the floor that you kinda need to do something to get noticed (though I gotta say, good confident basics stand out in a sea of flailing arms and flying legs too). But when you're down to semi-finals and the judges can really get a good look at your dancing, you had better have some substance behind the flash.

[NielsenE]

yes, this is why I used the word "ideal" in the description. I didn't want to involve discussion of what path is taken to get to the goal state.

[njdancegirl]

yes, this is why I used the word "ideal" in the description. I didn't want to involve discussion of what path is taken to get to the goal state.

Ahhh...then I stick by my original vote...No.

[skwiggy]

I've had some people (and I'm not saying names or locations) implying that an ideal student dancer should be aiming more for complete clarity/definition. A sort of simplicity in the dancing. At the expense of "excitement" or light/shade contrast or individual styling.

I could almost buy it in the context of closed event (which is why I provided the options I did in the poll), but I've always felt there was no difference as well. And by using "ideal" as the modifier I was trying to avoid the notion of different paths leading to the same place.

This sounds closer to a description of beginner vs advanced rather than student vs pro, although I think it still isn't completely accurate. I do think for a beginner clarity and simplicity should be the highest priority. And then as one gets more advanced, he/she should use that clarity and simplicity as a tool to express the "excitement", light/shade, contrast, individual styling or whatever you want to call it, very clearly and simply.

That doesn't mean the advanced dancer should strive to be any less clear or simplistic than the beginner. Just that there is another layer that gets added on top of it.

But when it comes down to the original question, good dancing is good dancing.

[cornutt]

This must be my week to be the troublemaker... I agree that there should be no difference in what pros and ams strive for. However, there may be a difference in what they have to accept from themselves at any given moment. I'm a better dancer than I was eight years ago. However, over that time span, my instructor has improved more than I have, both as a dancer and as a teacher (double whammy there). Although the top 10% of students may rank above the bottom 10% of pros, the 50th-percentile pro is always going to rank above the 50th-percentile student -- if they didn't, they wouldn't be able to stay in business.

[Standarddancer]

I agree with some of the previous posts saying that certain am dancers better than pros, and I've observed some + some good pro-am students better than some pros and champ ams; so there should be almost no difference, if there are any, should be very minor

[liz]

I have said many times that just because I am an AM doesn't mean that I take my dancing any less seriously that my PRO. I am not a lesser dancer for staying an AM. My goal is to become the best I can be.

[Warren J. Dew]

I don't think there's a difference in the look one would like to have. However, i do think that for standard - this may not apply to the other styles - and for a gentleman student competing with a substantially better lady professional, there's a difference in the best approach to dancing.

For the male pro-am student, it can be better to provide a basic lead and let the lady professional fill out all the styling details, rather than trying to lead those details. This has a couple of advantages. First, it allows the student to focus more on other aspects of his dancing, which will provide a greater competitive return on the effort invested. Second, it means the lady will not have to adjust her style as much to the gentleman student, which she may not be able to do anyway due to obligations to her professional partner or other students. The gentleman student, through subconscious following, will normally still match the styling well.

I've had some people (and I'm not saying names or locations) implying that an ideal student dancer should be aiming more for complete clarity/definition. A sort of simplicity in the dancing. At the expense of "excitement" or light/shade contrast or individual styling.

I would disagree with this difference. Professionals should also be aiming for complete clarity in their dancing. Without clarity and simplicity, light and shade become glare and gloom.

[samina]

Without clarity and simplicity, light and shade become glare and gloom.
What a great way to put it.

[Joe]

However, over that time span, my instructor has improved more than I have, both as a dancer and as a teacher (double whammy there).
I can almost guarantee that the reason is because your teacher has been spending more time than you have actually dancing and teaching (and possibly taking lessons) over that period. :)

[cornutt]

I can almost guarantee that the reason is because your teacher has been spending more time than you have actually dancing and teaching (and possibly taking lessons) over that period. :)

Oh yeah, no doubt. She dances 5-6 hours a day, six days a week, plus gym/Pilates/various workout regimens, and she takes coaching at every conceivable opportunity. I just don't have that kind of time. That's why she's the pro and I'm the student. :cool:

[fascination]

meh...I have known a student or two like that...

[biggestbox]

In latin, good AMs sometimes have to dance a little differently than pros. When you aren’t well established, sometimes you've got to put extra fireworks in the routine. quick choreography and crazy tricks can help you get into that final. The old saying in the ballroom world is: first you gotta get into the final, then we can teach you to dance. ALOT of the top pros including world champions started their career with pyrotechnics; they later slowed down (got more refined) as they improved. As an AM dancer i would feel free to put multiple spins, splits and aerial turns into the routine, even it they aren’t fully musical, you’ve gotta get noticed enough to be put into the final.

[cornutt]

meh...I have known a student or two like that...

You, m'dear, are a pro who just doesn't get paid. ;)

As for what biggestbox says, I suspect there's truth to that, particularly for lady ams. I wouldn't know since I don't dance at that level, and I've never been in a semi.

[njdancegirl]

In latin, good AMs sometimes have to dance a little differently than pros. When you aren’t well established, sometimes you've got to put extra fireworks in the routine. quick choreography and crazy tricks can help you get into that final. The old saying in the ballroom world is: first you gotta get into the final, then we can teach you to dance. ALOT of the top pros including world champions started their career with pyrotechnics; they later slowed down (got more refined) as they improved. As an AM dancer i would feel free to put multiple spins, splits and aerial turns into the routine, even it they aren’t fully musical, you’ve gotta get noticed enough to be put into the final.

Am sure there would be some that will agree with this and some that won't - I am still from the school that simpler done well is better than flash done poorly. Would rather be noticed for my impeccible technique and musicality than my ability to do tricks - even if it takes a bit longer to get there. Am sure it has worked for some, but wouldn't be my route. Just my opinion though...

[wooh]

The old saying in the ballroom world is: first you gotta get into the final, then we can teach you to dance.

Maybe if your goal is to do well in competitions rather than having a goal to learn to dance.

[etp777]

Maybe if your goal is to do well in competitions rather than having a goal to learn to dance.

And then you better make sure to avoid any social dancing too, right? :twisted:

[wooh]

And then you better make sure to avoid any social dancing too, right? :twisted:

Don't make me come out there!:mad:

:p

[Standarddancer]

I see what biggestbox saying, there could be different strategies to get into final or place better for am or pros. Similar situation in standard, am couples adds fireworks / dramatic pieces into their choreo such as multiple pivots, telespin, teleswivel, multiple jumps in quickstep, etc. just to get noticed, especially in bigger fields like Blackpool. Once we were discussing possibility of a figure for the corner, we thought we could do a hover corte but our teacher saying no because for top pros like blackpool finalist this would be a suitable since at bigger final like Blackpool corners are important, judges standing there, a beautiful hover corte with a nice extension line will be impressive; but for ams like us struggling to make early cuts (our teacher consider anything before top 24 in blackpool are "early rounds") in international comps this won't be great since hover corte is not a moving steps and not easy to "get noticed".

In general, a flashy choreo is much more easy to "get noticed", "get noticed" is important, judges have to notice you first before they can mark you;) however, get noticed definitely can't guarantee the couple being marked if the couple get noticed in a bad way such as multiple breaking frame and too much off music in their highly flashy routine, etc. So in short, not getting noticed don't get mark:( getting noticed badly don't get mark:( only getting noticed in a good way gets marks which makes this sport more challenge!!!!