Learning how to walk AGAIN in Standard and Latin

[Brush Tap]

Okay... I am in the midst of some technique struggles that are rearing their ugly heads in my dancing ... and am interested in your thoughts:

For forward and backward walks in standard (think foxtrot)... Going forward, I seem to be transferring my weight forward too fast and dropping my front toe. Going backward, I seem to transferring my weight backward too fast... so that I'm dropping my back heel and front toe too fast. I get that that is what I'm doing wrong... and I can visualize how it "should look" when done correctly... but I can't seem to correct it. Obviously I need to practice my forward and backward walks... that goes without saying, but I'm wondering:

1. When exactly should the weight be transferred when going each direction?
2. Does anyone know of any practice exercises I could use to target and correct this problem or to strengthen whatever muscles I need to to get more control over it?

Next, for forward and backward walks in latin (think rumba)... when I watch in the mirror, I keep noticing my ankles rolling to the outside, causing me to wobble. How can I work on eliminating that? I think part of it might be that my feet are too close together or that one or both are not turned out enough.... Ideally, how close should the feet be to each other laterally when they are apart at the full extent of a step (I know that they need to be extremely close when they are closed)? How turned out should each foot be... the more the better??

Many thanks for your thoughts and input!

[madmaximus]

Weight change is a process--of shifting from one foot to the other.

Exactly when? Impossible to tell because different figures require different moments in time.
[eg: the firsts of the Rev Turn and Double Rev Spin]

A general guideline (and I'm sure a lot will argue for/against): Weight transfer in Standard is all about synchronizing with your partner--not just your foot/body.

Generally, walking forward your weight goes forward immediately (front toe lands faster), going back you wait for your partner's weight to move through.

In Latin, the timing of weight transfer is dependent upon music and expression than partner coordination--hence you have more discretion on when exactly that happens.

There are many schools about Latin turnout--some advocating that it is done only during checking movements, others argue constant/consistent turnout.

Too much detail to explain in one post--but my 3 cents w.






m

[fascination]

1) warning...i am but a mere peon...but I believe answer to #1 is when the feet pass
2) I have been instructed to spend alot of time staying over a foot as long as I can just to feel when that actually must happen and being cognizant of the use of my ankles has been another major thing...plus the proverbial slide the tissue until you simply must step over it exercise

as for latin, not my forte but I would think that if it is possible for your ankles to wobble out you must not have proper turn out and pressure into the inside edge of the big toe/ball of foot...again...I am in no position to get more specific or more accurate than that...am sure someone will come along shortly and shred my pathetic attempt to pieces, with justification...but perhaps it will stimulate a host of better responses :)

[fascination]

lol...thank goodness greater minds chimed in while I was typing...

[Brush Tap]

plus the proverbial slide the tissue until you simply must step over it exercise



??? Please explain! :-)

[etp777]

Feet out will definitely made your ankles less likely to wobble to side. That being said, without seeing you dance, can't say that that's the problem, or whether it's something else. Don't want to end up doing plie's just trying to keep your ankles from wobbling if that's not the actual problem. :)

[Brush Tap]

Feet out will definitely made your ankles less likely to wobble to side. That being said, without seeing you dance, can't say that that's the problem, or whether it's something else. Don't want to end up doing plie's just trying to keep your ankles from wobbling if that's not the actual problem. :)

My feet are not turned out very much when going forward (which is the more problematic one right now)... they are maybe 20 degrees from the center?

[etp777]

Oh, I have no idea how far out they should be. That's one of ones I'm still working on too. :) Someone else might be able to answer that though.

[TAK]

it might be that my feet are too close together or that one or both are not turned out enough.... Ideally, how close should the feet be to each other laterally when they are apart at the full extent of a step (I know that they need to be extremely close when they are closed)?

This is a little tangential, but because I don't actually know the answers to your questions, heh, I'll just say-- make sure you're not crossing your feet one in front of the other. I had a habit of doing this when I first learned rumba walks and I had some weird ankle issues too, especially while collecting/settling in the middle of a step. I believe they should be on close to the same line (going straight out in front of you) but NOT crossed over.

[fascination]

??? Please explain! :-)
will pm you with details and get best possible version after a brief consult

[samina]

Brushtap, perhaps the wobbly ankles would be improved by strengthening the line of support that runs up your inner leg, from your ankles to your groin. You can develop an awareness and increased strength in this line of support by standing with your feet apart, toes out, heels lifted, and feeling as if you're drawing your legs together while you hold the position balanced. And you can also do the same thing with your legs crossed in mid-rumba-walk - for the man, heel down in front and heel up in back. Doing the latter is helpful for latin because it places your weight in-between and helps develop more control to work your rotation smoothly there.

IAE, these are exercises that have helped/are helping me acquire greater stability and less wobble... I do wonder how many years it takes for that impeccable steadiness to emerge...

[fascination]

Oh, I have no idea how far out they should be. That's one of ones I'm still working on too. :) Someone else might be able to answer that though.
I was always told feet are at @10 and 2

[mamboqueen]

10 & 2 seems like too much to me, but there are many shools of thought on foot turnout.

Brushtap, at what point in the walks do your ankles feel wobbly? Are you sure your shoes are giving you enough ankle support? I had problems with my feet rolling out to the sides and then I got really good supportive shoes that made a huge difference. If you just stand on one leg with all of your weight over that leg, does your ankle give out?

If you can get your hands on the Innovations DVD by Slavik & Karina, there are good breakdowns of basic forward and backward walks showing foot placement and the transference of weight process. I am taught it slightly differently (over the leg faster), but I think it is a really good visual tool for the whole walk process.

Who would ever think there would be so much to a walk??

A good ankle strength-building exercise: stand on one leg, bend the other knee and put that foot behind the one you are standing on. Now lift up the standing leg, starting with the ankle. Repeat 15x each side (2x/day if you can). You'll feel it in your calves, too. Another exercise I use when practicing walks is that as I am bending the back leg to bring it in (and pass thru), I start lifting the standing ankle. It helps me push off the standing leg.

[Chris Stratton]

For forward and backward walks in standard (think foxtrot)... Going forward, I seem to be transferring my weight forward too fast and dropping my front toe.

I would not actually worry about that, but instead about really projecting your weight forwards from the standing foot, even before the moving foot has arrived. The actual arrival onto the moving foot is not tentative or gradual, because by the time it happens your weight is far enough forward of the back foot that the only way you can stay in dynamic balance is to push forwards to counter your fall. People often try to take forward steps gingerly by keeping their weight back or sliding some of it on their heel, but this isn't any more correct in dancing than it would be in walking around. In both cases, we send our weight and catch it, immediately lowering the toe. The difference is that in dancing we try to make the whole process elongated and graceful, using our strength to soften the arrival while still being bold and "forward" about it.

going backward, I seem to transferring my weight backward too fast... so that I'm dropping my back heel and front toe too fast.

Going backwards is both easier and harder. Easier in that the direction in which the knee bends and the relative strength of the back of the foot (it's where the leg joins after all) compared to the toe means that you can project your weight further before losing balance. Harder in that it doesn't get exercised in non-dance walking, and in that you are probably doing it in heels. Ultimately, you will need to take all the weight to the back edge of the heel of the standing foot, and push it backwards (and upwards) from there as the moving toe slides without weight. Then in somewhat contrast to the forwards action, you can drill using the arriving ankle to slow the flattening of the foot. Because it's nearly possible to balance for most of the backwards action, you can drill it slowly in a way that bears much closer resemblance to the real thing than you can with the forwards action.

[fascination]

10 & 2 seems like too much to me, but there are many shools of thought on foot turnout.

Brushtap, at what point in the walks do your ankles feel wobbly? Are you sure your shoes are giving you enough ankle support? I had problems with my feet rolling out to the sides and then I got really good supportive shoes that made a huge difference. If you just stand on one leg with all of your weight over that leg, does your ankle give out?

If you can get your hands on the Innovations DVD by Slavik & Karina, there are good breakdowns of basic forward and backward walks showing foot placement and the transference of weight process. I am taught it slightly differently (over the leg faster), but I think it is a really good visual tool for the whole walk process.

Who would ever think there would be so much to a walk??

A good ankle strength-building exercise: stand on one leg, bend the other knee and put that foot behind the one you are standing on. Now lift up the standing leg, starting with the ankle. Repeat 15x each side (2x/day if you can). You'll feel it in your calves, too. Another exercise I use when practicing walks is that as I am bending the back leg to bring it in (and pass thru), I start lifting the standing ankle. It helps me push off the standing leg.
probably mq I have to be told that b/c my feet want to do none and none

[mamboqueen]

probably mq I have to be told that b/c my feet want to do none and none

mine neither; 10 & 2 hurts when I'm just standing ;). People w/ballet seem to be doing 9 & 3!

[fascination]

oddly, I find 9 and 3 easier...all or nothing kind of gal

[Brush Tap]

10 & 2 seems like too much to me, but there are many shools of thought on foot turnout.

Brushtap, at what point in the walks do your ankles feel wobbly? Are you sure your shoes are giving you enough ankle support? I had problems with my feet rolling out to the sides and then I got really good supportive shoes that made a huge difference. If you just stand on one leg with all of your weight over that leg, does your ankle give out?

If you can get your hands on the Innovations DVD by Slavik & Karina, there are good breakdowns of basic forward and backward walks showing foot placement and the transference of weight process. I am taught it slightly differently (over the leg faster), but I think it is a really good visual tool for the whole walk process.

Who would ever think there would be so much to a walk??

A good ankle strength-building exercise: stand on one leg, bend the other knee and put that foot behind the one you are standing on. Now lift up the standing leg, starting with the ankle. Repeat 15x each side (2x/day if you can). You'll feel it in your calves, too. Another exercise I use when practicing walks is that as I am bending the back leg to bring it in (and pass thru), I start lifting the standing ankle. It helps me push off the standing leg.

Oooh thanks for the exercises- I will definitely try those! Yeah, I wonder about the shoes... it seems to happen right when I transfer my weight, and I really have to almost "clench" my foot to keep the ankle steady. I have a new pair of a different kind of shoe that I was saving for competition, maybe I will break those out and see if there is any difference.

[Brush Tap]

I was always told feet are at @10 and 2 Well 10 and 2 would definitely be a larger angle than I am getting... I will try that too. Thanks!

[biggestbox]

Oooh thanks for the exercises- I will definitely try those! Yeah, I wonder about the shoes... it seems to happen right when I transfer my weight, and I really have to almost "clench" my foot to keep the ankle steady. I have a new pair of a different kind of shoe that I was saving for competition, maybe I will break those out and see if there is any difference.

those are great excercises!! make sure to stretch your instep and keep the weight over the metatarsal. you have to build that strength. many times people roll their ankle b/c they are not alligned over their big toe. think about pushing the heal into the front of the foot, that will create the proper allignment.

With turnout, everyone is different. use the amount of turnout that feels confortable with your body. Detailed technique depends very much on the physical composition of your body. lie down and let you feet turn out as much as they feel comfortable while keeping your tail bone down. that is your natural turnout.

[soshedances]

To develop foot/ankle strength, I just walk around on my toes for a few minutes as a warm up. It's very easy and helps me a lot. I will also stand on one foot and lift my ankle to go up onto the ball of my standing foot, then slowly lower back down. Sometimes I'll go up for a count of 8, then lower for a count of 8. The more control, the better.

When I do exercises like these, I try to make sure that my posture is correct as well: my torso feels nice and long, and my hips feel "lifted". A problem that I have with my walks is that I sometimes arrive on my foot "settled" too far into my hip, particularly for Latin, which cuts down my hip actions quite a bit. Keeping my posture nice and long and tall seems to also help the balance and gives me a better idea of my center as well.

[Josh]

BrushTap, sounds like your feet need to be stronger (as is the case with all of us!). Exercises will work, but just dancing it by yourself will help immensely.

[mamboqueen]

Here's another one given to me by one of my teachers. This one almost always causes my toes to cramp. Best to do with socks on, and on a rug. Sit with your feet together. Curl your toes under and push forward on the front of your ankles/tops of feet.

[delamusica]

A good ankle strength-building exercise: stand on one leg, bend the other knee and put that foot behind the one you are standing on. Now lift up the standing leg, starting with the ankle. Repeat 15x each side (2x/day if you can). You'll feel it in your calves, too. Another exercise I use when practicing walks is that as I am bending the back leg to bring it in (and pass thru), I start lifting the standing ankle. It helps me push off the standing leg.

I'm getting back into a more-frequent dance schedule now, and finding that my feet/legs are just not as responsive as they used to be (of course).

I work at a grocery store at the moment, and I do this all the time while I'm standing at the register. (Has the added advantage of giving my arches a break from the standing.)

[mamboqueen]

I'm getting back into a more-frequent dance schedule now, and finding that my feet/legs are just not as responsive as they used to be (of course).

I work at a grocery store at the moment, and I do this all the time while I'm standing at the register. (Has the added advantage of giving my arches a break from the standing.)

That is really great...many of these are exercises you can do when you're standing around, sitting, working, etc. I always try to get some in on my two "off" days. I also got an Elements Ballet workout DVD which is pretty arduous (for me, the non-ballerina), but very helpful with feet and legs. I just have such little flexibility....it's scary.

[samina]

Here's another one given to me by one of my teachers. This one almost always causes my toes to cramp. Best to do with socks on, and on a rug. Sit with your feet together. Curl your toes under and push forward on the front of your ankles/tops of feet.

my meridian stretcher regularly does resistance stretching on my toes. she'd never done that before. i *love* when she does it. she also does resistance strength training for my feet & ankles. ask your trainer about that...

[mamboqueen]

my meridian stretcher regularly does resistance stretching on my toes. she'd never done that before. i *love* when she does it. she also does resistance strength training for my feet & ankles. ask your trainer about that...

I have to let someone know me really well before I let them touch my ugly toes *LOL*. But that's funny...how the heck do you get your toe muscles to resist? I can't even fathom!

[samina]

I have to let someone know me really well before I let them touch my ugly toes *LOL*. But that's funny...how the heck do you get your toe muscles to resist? I can't even fathom!

wear socks, silly. :)

well, you just point one way while she stretches them in an arc in the opposite direction, and then vice versa. basically the same way all the rest of the stretches are done. same thing with the ankles. that's something i could probly do for you. if you have someone around, you could train then to do the ankle strengthening.

[Some guy]

Lots of terrific advice here. I can only say what's been already said in my words. Also as I haven't seen the problem first hand I will suggest what works for a majority of the folks I personally know:

Weight transfer: Samina described in another thread to imagine that you're rolling a ball underneath your feet on every step you take - even on your standing leg. When stepping forwards, roll the imaginary ball under your foot backwards (of course, since you're standing on it, your leg won't move, but it will prepare your body to transfer weight to the next step) and then when you take a step forwards make sure you hit the ground with your forward foot with the same feeling as if you're rolling a ball backwards (the "rolling backwards" feeling in your standing leg should never let up). This should start to create the desired weight transfer and softness as well as satisfy the requirement to create "foot pressure". This applies for Latin too. Never step passively. Roll the imaginary ball under your feet backwards on ever forward step and vice-versa.

Ankle issues: in addition to the above, earlier on in this thread Samina gave some great advice about using the inside of the leg. Most folks who have the "wobbles" use some degree of "outside" leg and hip strength that makes it hard to balance. Use the insides of your thighs to feel your weight using the method Samina described and it should fix the problem.

Sorry Samina, I like to refer to your posts because you explain things much more succintly than I do.

...then again, everyone explains things more succintly than I do!
:)

[Brush Tap]

10 & 2 seems like too much to me, but there are many shools of thought on foot turnout.

Brushtap, at what point in the walks do your ankles feel wobbly? Are you sure your shoes are giving you enough ankle support? I had problems with my feet rolling out to the sides and then I got really good supportive shoes that made a huge difference. If you just stand on one leg with all of your weight over that leg, does your ankle give out?

If you can get your hands on the Innovations DVD by Slavik & Karina, there are good breakdowns of basic forward and backward walks showing foot placement and the transference of weight process. I am taught it slightly differently (over the leg faster), but I think it is a really good visual tool for the whole walk process.

Who would ever think there would be so much to a walk??

A good ankle strength-building exercise: stand on one leg, bend the other knee and put that foot behind the one you are standing on. Now lift up the standing leg, starting with the ankle. Repeat 15x each side (2x/day if you can). You'll feel it in your calves, too. Another exercise I use when practicing walks is that as I am bending the back leg to bring it in (and pass thru), I start lifting the standing ankle. It helps me push off the standing leg.

Okay, so, I remembered that I have an older pair of shoes that are very "stiff"/supportive... so I tried the whole thing with those, and it is a completely different story. Zero wobble!! :-) So, do I switch to the more supportive shoes.... or will that then become a crutch, so to speak, so maybe I should use both to practice so that eventually I can dance in a more flexible shoe?

[mamboqueen]

I'd say keep looking for a shoe that will give you both support *and* flexibility. Are you a male or female? (Sorry, I can't *see*!). I can't really help you with male shoes. If I had to go with one of your options, I'd have to say go with the stiffer ones because while it may inhibit you a little bit, I'd personally rather have the stability. You could hurt yourself with unsupportive shoes, rolling out your ankle.

What brand shoes are you wearing (both the unsupportive one and the stiff one)?

[Brush Tap]

I'd say keep looking for a shoe that will give you both support *and* flexibility. Are you a male or female? (Sorry, I can't *see*!). I can't really help you with male shoes. If I had to go with one of your options, I'd have to say go with the stiffer ones because while it may inhibit you a little bit, I'd personally rather have the stability. You could hurt yourself with unsupportive shoes, rolling out your ankle.

What brand shoes are you wearing (both the unsupportive one and the stiff one)?

Female :-) The unsupportive one is Stephanie Professional and the stiff one is Freed. I also have a pair of Ray Rose ones that I was saving for competition... they look similar to the Stephanie ones with straps all around the front part of the foot, but they seem a bit more supportive... not as supportive as the Freed ones but definitely an improvement over the Stephanie.

[mamboqueen]

Well, I was going to recommend that you try Ray Rose shoes. They are the ones that have made the biggest difference in my stability (I also have VERY narrow feet and I was extremely limited in choices to begin with).

I'm not so sure I would switch around between what you wear in practice and what you wear in a competition. My feet are very tuned in to differences in shoes (even the same exact style, but different pair, always seems to be some very minor difference, usually in snugness). I am sure part of my brain *power* would unconsciously be spent on the difference in the feel of different shoes if I went back and forth like that.

[njdancegirl]

I also wear Ray Rose - find them to be the best combination of support and flexibility (if that is even possible?!?)

And agree with MQ - if you are going to have a comp pair and practice pair, make sure you move into the comp pair a few weeks before comp, not just on that day.