My 14 yr. old daughter...

[barrefly]

I want my daughter (and she as well) to get into ballroom/latin dance and it may happen if this 19 yr. old instructor is interested in partnering her. She has trained in dance all her life....but has never seriously trainied or competed in ballroom/latin. Can you pros tell me what to expect...i.e. the process or the roads she could/should take? She has no certifications at this point, but we are from the L.A. area...and I am sure there are many studios which would accelerate her with certifications. (i.e. Vivo's)
I don't dance, therefore, I am really not sure what I am asking .....but perhaps you all can just throw things out there. such as...is she going to have to compete in 5 style ballroom...10 style? How long can she do pro/am. (If she wins once...she can no longer compete in pro/am?).
Anything info. will help.

A bit about her and her possible partner.
I do not know much about him at this point except that he is a talented dancer and also teaches salsa. (probably ballroom as well). My daughter is a near pro. salsa dancer and has stated that he has very good salsa tech. and good lines. I would not be suprised if he is known by some of you. He is also the one of the nicest guys I have ever met.

My daughter has trained in dance longer then her memory allows (since 2 1/2 yrs. old) and has trained in ballet, jazz, tap, modern, hiphop, flamenco, W.C. swing, ballroom/latin, and salsa. She currently has a salsa partner whom is not interested in ballroom/latin whatsoever...and is also training in a cabaret form of hustle with an older hustle pro. (extensive lifts and tricks).

Keep in mind...she is 14 and not ballroom certifide. He is 19 and probably is highly certifide. (just a guess).
Here is a "not so clean" clip of her dancing salsa.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7Ty5n5gcuag
....you can probably see why I want to get her into ballroom. (to sharpen her tech.).
Thanks everyone in advance.

[latingal]

Hello barrefly,

There are a lot of questions in your post, I will try to give a bit of information and I'm sure others will also chime in.

Can you pros tell me what to expect...i.e. the process or the roads she could/should take?

It depends what your daughter wants to do in ballroom/latin. Does she want to compete? Does she want to become a teacher at some point? Does she want to do this just for fun?

If your daughter wants to compete there are three main pairings she can get involved with; pro (2 pros partnering), amateur (2 amateurs partnering) or pro-am (one pro and an amateur student). In general since she has very little ballroom or latin experience I would say we can probably omit competing pro. So she's left with either competing with another amateur or doing pro-am. Lot's of pros and cons going either route, and their have been many threads in the past that have discussed them. But in my experience, an amateur partnership may be more economical, but male partners are sometimes very hard to find and her learning curve may be a bit slower than if she was doing pro-am (given her previous dance experience she might end up "waiting" for her partner to improve). Pro-am may accelerate her learning curve (depends on individual situation), but is tremendously expensive.

She has no certifications at this point, but we are from the L.A. area...and I am sure there are many studios which would accelerate her with certifications.

If she is just looking to compete, no certifications are necessary. If she wants to teach, she might end up doing some testing.

is she going to have to compete in 5 style ballroom...10 style?

There are four main styles in ballroom competitions, International Standard and Latin, and American Smooth and Rhythm. If you happen to do both styles of international you are sometimes called a 10 dancer, if you do both American styles you are sometimes called a 9 dancer (all styles have 5 main dances except for smooth which has 4). She can choose to compete in whatever she'd like - a single style, two styles in the same family - which sometimes is a special event for competition, or she can mix and match.

How long can she do pro/am. (If she wins once...she can no longer compete in pro/am?).

In general you can do pro-am as a amateur student as long as you do not teach any type of ballroom dance (if you really want the specifics you can read the NDCA rules on restrictions on an amateur student in pro-am). There are some restrictions by competition about not being able to compete in scholarship events where you have won the previous year, but not in the open gold categories (the highest category a pro-am student can compete at).

My daughter is a near pro. salsa dancer and has stated that he has very good salsa tech. and good lines.[...]

My daughter has trained in dance longer then her memory allows (since 2 1/2 yrs. old) and has trained in ballet, jazz, tap, modern, hiphop, flamenco, W.C. swing, ballroom/latin, and salsa.

The technique in ballroom and latin is different than salsa, and very unique to other forms of dancing as well. Being as young as she is, and with her prior training, she should catch on fairly quickly though. I've seen similarly trained youngsters get up to speed to be at a good level of amateur competition (not pro-am) in three to five years if they really work at it.

[rainerng]

Personally, I would not worry AT ALL about the certifications. Your daughter is only 14 and both of you may find that she doesnt like competitive aspect of ballroom competitions...or, maybe she'll love it! Get her to compete with her instructor and see how things go. Again, she is only 14...and the idea of turning pro is really really too early in my opinion. Give her time to decide what she wants to do.

[barrefly]

Latingal, ....many, many thanks to you for your wonderfully informative reply. Now, I will not look so naive should I have to discuss the matter with her potential partner.

There was one thing...You mention about "gold" pro/am comps. You also mention that one does not need to be certifide to compete. Does that apply to such comps?

rainerng, You may be right. I sort of perceive ballroom/latin like the ballet comps. In salsa, she is amazing because of the salsa feats she does that few can do. In ballroom it seems more about the look and tech. Still, some of her salsa strong points should carry into ballroom/latin. I still think ballroom will really help her tech. with salsa.
Added: The salsa world taught us what pro. means...(it doesn't seem to carry a lot of weight financially wise). I just want her to learn as much dance as possible and when she is an adult...she can decide what to do with it. Her dream is to break into Film/T.V. as a choreographer or movement coach. Competing seems to accelerate her skills for some reason. She has learn a great deal from it and does enjoy it greatly when she does well.

Is this ballroom?....this is what Missy likes to do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhIZ2sgG3q0&NR=1

[mamboqueen]

That is actually cabaret. Lifts wouldn't be allowed in a ballroom/latin competition.

[Standarddancer]

nice video clip. I think she has an advantage in Latin since she's good at fast spin and she has very natural hip motion.

What latingal said above were all true. Just be mindful current rule has not yet authorized the am in pro-am to teach. So if she wishes to teach dancing, she might have to switch to am or pro eventually, she can start with competing pro-am just for experience.

Don't worry about the certificate.

[Laura]

If she wants to compete, it is best at her age to find another amateur in her age group (at her age she's what is called a "Junior II"). She can start by training with the 19-year-old professional as her partner, but if she were to dance a competition with the professional she'd have to enter the Pro/Am event. The problem with her doing Pro/Am is that at her age there are *VERY* few girls dancing in that division, so it will be the usual case that she will have no one to compete against.

My teacher, who I dance in Pro/Am events with, has a 14-year-old student. She used to dance with a boy her age but their partnership broke up. The girl is very frustrated dancing in Pro/Am because when she goes to the competitions there is no one in her age group so she is uncontested. If she had an amateur boy to dance with, there would be LOTS of kids to compete against. Basically, kids her age don't do Pro/Am.

[_malakawa_]

Latingal, ....many, many thanks to you for your wonderfully informative reply. Now, I will not look so naive should I have to discuss the matter with her potential partner.

There was one thing...You mention about "gold" pro/am comps. You also mention that one does not need to be certifide to compete. Does that apply to such comps?



On a competition you have levels. (bronze,silver, gold ..........)

Depends in what she will compete.

She can't compete like Am/Am if her partner is a certificate teacher.

So she can compete like Pro/Am or Pro/Pro.

Only if she want to teach she need to have a certificate. But from my point of view, she is to young for teaching.

You need to talk to her partner, because a lots of things depends on him also.

[_malakawa_]

If she wants to compete, it is best at her age to find another amateur in her age group (at her age she's what is called a "Junior II"). She can start by training with the 19-year-old professional as her partner, but if she were to dance a competition with the professional she'd have to enter the Pro/Am event. The problem with her doing Pro/Am is that at her age there are *VERY* few girls dancing in that division, so it will be the usual case that she will have no one to compete against.



i think this is the best.

but it is hard to find a partner.

[Laura]

So she can compete like Pro/Am or Pro/Pro.
She's only 14 so she might be too young to compete in Pro/Pro events anyway. It might no longer be the case, but the NDCA (the national governing body for Pro ballroom competitions) used to have a minimum age of 16 for Pros.

[Standarddancer]

i think this is the best.

but it is hard to find a partner.

Agree. Best start training with her teacher doing pro-am for now while searching for an amateur boy.

[mamboqueen]

Well, I think there is one other avenue for her, and that is to dance with an older male am and do "student" dancing rather than pro/am, which is considerably less expensive (I think we pay $17/heat for my daughter to do it...or thereabouts...nothing added by studio). She may have more competitors if it is generally done in her part of the country than if she did pro/am. I just don't know how prevalent it is elsewhere.

[Laura]

Aside from taking lessons with the teacher, she should do whatever it takes to be around the kids her age who dance. See if there are any Junior or Youth group classes or practice sessions she can attend. If she does nothing but train with her teacher and is never seen by the kids (and parents) in her peer group, then no one will ever even think of her as a possible partner -- she just won't even be on people's radar.

[_malakawa_]

She's only 14 so she might be too young to compete in Pro/Pro events anyway. It might no longer be the case, but the NDCA (the national governing body for Pro ballroom competitions) used to have a minimum age of 16 for Pros.


oh, yeah. i forgot about that.

But i think that you can send a letter or something so that they can compete. (i know that one couple from my country did that, because she was 15 YO.)

[Glasswren]

Since our rules on this side of the puddle are somewhat different, I am not going to even try to advice on that stuff. :)

But I dug up a couple of videos from Ballroom competitions with kids about the young lady's age. Mind these are not beginners, but the idea what Ballroom dancing looks like is hopefully transmitted. I picked just two dances Cha Cha from Latin and Slow Foxtrot from Standard. No reason, just coincidence.

Cha Cha (video by therejected1):
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/xs0evmwT4wg&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xs0evmwT4wg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Slow Foxtrot (video by valerina00):
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/V23dOv8pPxw&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/V23dOv8pPxw&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

I purposefully did not pick World Champions and such, but just some, presumably, good kids. I don't know any of these people myself.

[kayak]

I was just going to add that if she wants to do Show Dance and Theater Arts, taking some drama and theater classes or joining a local production. would help a ton. Then all she has to do is have some big wins in the normal dances and she can get involved in the types of dances you had in your video.

[latingal]

There was one thing...You mention about "gold" pro/am comps. You also mention that one does not need to be certifide to compete. Does that apply to such comps?

Actually there is gold and open gold (open gold being the highest in pro-am). Normally bronze through gold is "closed syllabus", restricted to certain steps for each level (and normally in a closed hold - one or both hands connected). Open gold is anything goes (but best to stay in the style of the dance) but no lifts.

And you do not need to be certified to compete in pro-am (with the caveat of age limitations and the like).

[Standarddancer]

Well, I think there is one other avenue for her, and that is to dance with an older male am and do "student" dancing rather than pro/am, which is considerably less expensive (I think we pay $17/heat for my daughter to do it...or thereabouts...nothing added by studio). She may have more competitors if it is generally done in her part of the country than if she did pro/am. I just don't know how prevalent it is elsewhere.

I think this is called "mix-proficiency" comp according to the current USA Dance rule?

[Laura]

Hard to say what Mamboqueen meant. It could be "mixed proficiency," which not all USA Dance competitions offer (have never seen it on the West Coast, where the dancing daughter in question lives). I thought what she meant was to dance in NDCA "student/student" events with an older Amateur partner rather than a teacher (the price per person definitely made it sound that way.

[barrefly]

Thankyou everyone for all the info. Unfortunatly, I have this terrible toothache and am having trouble fully comprehending your very indepth posts. I will read them carefully when I feel better.

The young man just replied to Missy on her myspace stating that he would begin training with her anytime she is wants. Although, he also stated "It's too bad she is so young for competition". I could tell how much he loves ballroom/latin and I really would love to have something to offer him with Missy's dancing. He is actually quite good and there is a good chance many of you know of him in the L.A. scene. (I assume he is 19....I think that is what is on his myspace). I will have a talk with him soon.
Thankyou all again, sooooo much.

Added: (They recently competed in a pro. salsa jandj togeather, Missy and her part. took first...he and his took 2nd...though he was much better than Missy's partner). The young man was so "not" competitive in the event and was just having a good time. I have a great deal of respect for him.

Glasswren....thankyou so much for the clips. It was not a surpise the talent of these kids and is the reason I want Missy to focus on ballroom for a while. I will show them to Missy tomorrow.

[Indiana_Jay]

barrefly:

There is much good information in the many responses you've received so far. Although I don't have much personal expertise in these matters, I can think of a couple of points worth adding.


You refer to the 19-year-old man as a potential "partner" for your 14-year-old daughter. It is likely, however, that the only way the two of them could compete as partners is in pro/am events (in which only the amateur is judged -- the pro is merely there as part of his job). It's important for you to understand (if you don't already) that in pro/am events the pro is more than a partner -- he's also the lady's professional instructor and generally the amateur student pays him not only for instruction before the competition but for his time and expenses at the competition. So while many pro/am competitors call their instructors "partners" the professional relationship between them is typically more than a partnership.
You seem unclear on exactly what qualifications the 19-year-old has with regard to teaching ballroom. Even if he's a professional salsa competitor, he might not be the best person to teach your daughter ballroom dancing. You need to find out how much experience he has had in ballroom, whether he has taken any other students to pro/am ballroom competitions, and how those students have fared. If his ballroom qualifications are not strong, your daughter might well be better off investigating other instructors, including those who work at area ballroom dance studios.
Be aware that in pro/am competitions, the age of the professional dance instructor does not matter. Those 14-year-old girls who compete in pro/am (and as someone else said, there are not many) dance with instructors of all ages. Your daughter might be better off competing in pro/am with a well-qualified 40-year-old professional instructor than with this 19-year-old, if he is not well qualified in ballroom.

The best way for your daughter to become involved in ballroom dancing might well be for her to take an introductory group lesson (class) at a local ballroom dance studio. The class will not be expensive and it'll give her an idea of what ballroom is really like. If she enjoys the group lessons, you can look into purchasing private lessons for her, which would be the next step toward pro/am competition. If she trains at a studio where other teenagers train, this also increases the chances of her finding a partner her age with whom to dance in amateur competitions.

Hope your toothache passes soon!

-IJ

[barrefly]

My toothache is gone and I've reread your posts.

If the young man likes dancing with Missy....it sounds like there are many events they can enter while they are training together, (...at least for a few years until Missy reaches 16). I don't mind paying for entrance fees, incidentals and costumes. I just don't want to pay for privates from this young man. (Though, I imagine he could use the money). If I had to do that, I would probably go with an experienced pro. with a successful career behind him....and perhaps solicite for a partner her age to train with to reduce the cost as well.
I am spending a great deal on her dance as it is...and am always looking to reduce costs.
I do really want to get her back into her ballroom/latin training. The Salsa scene is really not that healthy for her, but it's just so darn popular here on the left coast.

[Indiana_Jay]

Mods:

Please delete my duplicate posts. Last night's database problems kept me from seeing that my post had ever been added to the database. Thanks.

-IJ

[mamboqueen]

Hard to say what Mamboqueen meant. It could be "mixed proficiency," which not all USA Dance competitions offer (have never seen it on the West Coast, where the dancing daughter in question lives). I thought what she meant was to dance in NDCA "student/student" events with an older Amateur partner rather than a teacher (the price per person definitely made it sound that way.

Well, just checked the Yankee website and they call it "open singles". It is definitely not what I did at Yankee, which was student/student. And it does sound like mixed proficiency. It would be nice (and easy) if they were someone consistent with the name throughout all the comps,, tho!

[Indiana_Jay]

I just don't want to pay for privates from this young man. (Though, I imagine he could use the money). If I had to do that, I would probably go with an experienced pro. with a successful career behind him.

Even if the 19-year-old doesn't charge your daughter for private lessons, it might be a case of you getting what you pay for. If he is not well-qualified to teach ballroom, there is a risk that your daughter will develop bad technique habits that could be avoided by working with a well-qualified instructor.

[barrefly]

Indidana_Jay, I did get to talk with the young man and find out a bit about him. I think you are right about "getting what I pay for". Melissa has too much quality training behind her already, to risk it on inadequate ballroom training. I will regroup and when I am ready to seek the proper training for Melissa...I will solicite your (members) help. Thankyou all so much. Though,...if anyone does know a 15-18 yr. old that has world class ballroom potential, and is from the L.A. area...please do not hestitate to suggest Melissa. I promise with all my heart....Missy would be a score for a ballroom partner. I also promise to use only the best instructors for them.

A little advice...if you get a toothache...go to the dentist immediatly.

[latingal]

barrefly, I'm glad you had the chance to find out more about the young man in question. Reversing bad habits/technique is not a whole lot of fun and at times quite frustrating...best to find somebody with good qualifications to help her get the basics in good order from the get go.

Good luck...

[Indiana_Jay]

I did get to talk with the young man and find out a bit about him. I think you are right about "getting what I pay for". Melissa has too much quality training behind her already, to risk it on inadequate ballroom training. I will regroup and when I am ready to seek the proper training for Melissa.

Glad to hear this is working out.

[madmaximus]

Barrefly,
If you and your daughter see participation in Ballroom/Latin in the long-term (as in 10 or so yrs at least) consider getting a top-flight coach now.

Ideally someone who can give you perspective on the proper training and development of a teen.

Stick with that coach to get coaching stability and strong foundational technique over time.

One of the most detrimental things in the US is the absence of consistency in dancer training--many couples don't have coaches that see them through their careers and can give them the benefit of the long-term view.
Instead teachers/instructors are usually hired (as opposed to coaches) by the hour for short spurts of time.
The result? Styles waffle back and forth, foundational technique suffers, and there is no continuity on managing and improving flaws in the dancing.







m

[barrefly]

madmaximus...yes, Melissa has every intention of devoting a great deal of her life and time to dance. The difficulty will be finding an ideal partner for my daughter. I have had a top-flight coach try to do so..but with little success. He also had a few other exceptional talented "follows" he was searching for partners for. I wish them luck as well.

If there are any "top-flight" So. Cal. instructors/coaches that would be interested in teaching/coaching a dancer like my daughter and also has a partner in mind to partner her, please consider my daughter. She not only is an amazing turner but is also cabaret trained. (..an amazing dancer is a given).

a caveat....Melissa has been at this a while, and does have leads to chose from...but has turned them down for various reasons. (some being personal issues).
Melissa has been taught and has developed very good pro. work ethics and would expect the same from her partner.
I will be contacting Vivo's after this post and will be seeing if they have a partner wanted list as well.

Thankyou everyone for setting me on the proper path for my daughter.
I don't think there is need to keep this thread going any longer....so...please....for those interested......please put our info. on file.

[danceronice]

Honestly? If I were her I would be taking ballroom lessons from a good pro now before I worried about finding a partner. Look, yes, look a LOT until you find one, but don't wait to be working on it. Also, the more she's in a ballroom studio dancing with ballroom pros, the better the odds she's going to find a partner or someone who knows someone who's looking. Get a coach now, so she can start working on ballroom-specific skills and so she can meet more and more people in ballroom world. The more networking she does, the better the odds of finding a partner.

[samina]

Honestly? If I were her I would be taking ballroom lessons from a good pro now before I worried about finding a partner. Look, yes, look a LOT until you find one, but don't wait to be working on it. Also, the more she's in a ballroom studio dancing with ballroom pros, the better the odds she's going to find a partner or someone who knows someone who's looking. Get a coach now, so she can start working on ballroom-specific skills and so she can meet more and more people in ballroom world. The more networking she does, the better the odds of finding a partner.
My sentiments exactly. Get her learning ballroom from a quality pro. She'll be good. The partner will come...

[barrefly]

I wish you all were from So. Cal. and knew us....I need so much advice...it ain't funny. I just read a new thread about pro/am comps that is raising some concerns of mine as well. Anyway,....I have contacted Alan Vivo studio and will also be getting Missy with a pro. ballroom dancer/instructor/coach for evaluation and consultation.

[samina]

Barrefly, stay tuned to the forum. It provides a wealth of information and counsel on every ballroom-related topic imagineable...and quite a few having nothing to do with dance. ;)

Good luck with your daughter's eval.

[star_gazer]

While I was waiting for my daughter and her partner to grow up and get their crap together, I kept my daughter in 3 hour/day 5 days/week ballet class. It made her tough, taught her discipline and helped her to develop as a dancer. It was the only well structured dance program available. As she and her partner got more involved in ballroom, the ballet tapered down to one lesson/day and now she's just doing ballroom (plus yoga, pilates and conditioning). It wasn't a perfect solution but it was a good bridge.