Question on Pro/Am competition fee

[muyv]

Hi, there, I have a question on Pro/Am competition. Is the entry fee for the pro/am competition suppose to be a secret between the competition organizer and the studio?

I was thinking of going to this Pro/Am competition with the studio, but the price quoted by the studio just increases like 30% comparing with last year. So I ask the studio owner. The studio owner said among other things, it was because that the registeration fee for the competition has increasd. I never know of a competition charging registration fee on top of the heat fees. And from past experience, it won't be easy to get from her a breakdown of the package. So I decide to ask the organizer. I sent an email to the orgnanizer asking for the price for the heats and package etc, and some other questions, but got an email back answering my other question, except for this price question.

Am I stepping into a forbidden territory? Should I not ask the question to the competion organizer? Is the pro/am price usually a deal between the organizer and the studios?

**************************

Just got an email from the organizer while I was typing, There is no such registration fee. And he told me the price the heats too. Guess I was just impatient.

[fascination]

IME...most organizers will have you keep that issue between yourself and and the studio...and IME, if you are with a studio that won't show you the packet information and all of the rates plus a thorough breakdown of their own charges...you have a problem...

[liz]

I always ask questions.It is your money and you should know where it is going. The organizer tries to keep it between them and the pros. The pros add on their fees, the money for time lost, Hotel, food, est. BUT,,,,,, Sometimes you will hear of those that try to do shady things and take advantage of unknowing ams.... Ask questions, and keep asking until you get an answer. Bottom line, IMO, they work for us. If it were anyother area in our lives we would never hand over the kind of money we do to someone with out know exactly what it was for... But, I have never been one to follow the rules just because everyone else does. I think that the prices should be on the sites for all to see. Then, you wouldn't be having this issue. Well, itless you would know what the comp part was costing you. You might be suprised.
good luck!

[muyv]

Thanks for the replys.

Yes, I got an answer from the organizer. There is no registration fee. So now I need to think about what to do with the studio owner who lied to me. Very uncomfortable situation, it feels like I myself is caught lying or sth....

[fascination]

don't feel guilty asking for a detailed breakdown...sure they don't have to give it...you also don't have to pay it...I have danced with two wonderful pros and both have been perfectly willing to explain their expenses to the letter

[SDsalsaguy]

I agree with both fascination and liz... you are the consumer and have every right to make an informed decision on where to spend your money. If the studio is uncomfortable explaining exactly what their fees are for, it is because they know they cannot justify them!

[latingal]

And welcome to DF muyv!

[SDsalsaguy]

And welcome to DF muyv!
:oops:

Yup, that too!!! :D

[NoDayButToday]

Bottom line, IMO, they work for us.

lol, I'm liking your perspective.

But, I totally agree with liz. Ask tons of questions. I would hope the pro would compromise with you regarding the money issue. Never quite understood why pros make their ams pay massive amounts of money, especially if he/she is competing in that competition anyway. Entry fees... ok. Travel expenses... ok. Hotel Room... I'd have my pro crash with me :) (especially if he's cute, hehehehehe).

[Josh]

Never quite understood why pros make their ams pay massive amounts of money, especially if he/she is competing in that competition anyway.

I totally agree with everything you and everyone has said ... and I certainly don't charge or agree with the fees some charge, but that's their business I suppose. But, "he is competing in that competition anyway" is not really a reason to not charge for services that are being rendered.

If you're driving to work every day and 3 other people from your office want to ride with you in your car because they live in the same neighborhood, why not let them ride with you for free 5 days a week...? After all, you're going to work anyway...? See what I mean? :-) It's about the value you would be providing for your neighbors. A pro charges money because it's his/her job, livlihood, and he/she is providing a valuable service. It's got nothing to do with whether they were going to be there anyway.

[muyv]

Thanks for everybody's reply. I have been reading on this forum for a while, but never posted before. I really like this forum, because everybody shares their knowledge. Having stayed in school for a long time, I find that I have taken that for granted.

That's also what gets me irretated with the studio owner, she refused to tell me the truth. At this point, since I already got the information from the competition organizer. I am not sure what I should do with the studio. It is not a matter of getting information from the them any more. Rather it was about whehter I confront with the owner who lied to me about the competition charge a registration fee. And this I feel is somewhat tricky.

On one hand, I think I should confront her, it is a matter of principle. But on the other hand, I don't think she would change the fee anyway. I also am afraid the confrontation would compromize the relationship with my instructor (who is not the owner, but might be aware of what she told me). While he is not a top notch teacher, I should say he is a good teacher. And the studio is convinient for me to go to (20 minutes drive), if I switch I think I will have to go somewhere one hour drive away to find a teacher of the same quality.

Sorry for rambling on these, sometimes, I feel frustrated, All I really want is to learn dancing, why is it so complicated.

[muyv]

Of course I still have the option to not to do the competition. But ...
I wonder what is the reason for others to do a pro/am competition.
Personally, for me, I felt the competition itself was nothing, but the prep before hand is what is valuable for me.

I mean, for a competition with only 2 or 3 contestants to compete against in an event, I don't feel the pressure of competing at all. But the lessons leading up to the competition are often more rigorious and effective than lessons at other time of the year. I am not sure if this is because I am paying more attention, or because my teacher is more dedicated when preparing for a comp. And as competitions are expensive, I feel that it is not justifiable to go for a comp just becuase of the lessons beforehand are better. Any thoughts?

[fascination]

I think the word confront is way overused and a sad result of psycho babble from decades past (and I say that being in the field and with no offense to you, muyv)...there is a way for adults to have conversations that are difficult without it being confrontative or combative...you simply say..."hi, I'd like to talk to you about your charges for the upcoming comp, I was on the comp website and was able to get their fee information which didn't include a registration fee and other charges you quoted me, I understand that the studio has it's own mark-up and charges to cover it's costs but, before I commit to doing the comp, I need you to break down and explain those costs to me so that I can make my decision or adjust what I plan on dancing accordingly"....there really should be no need for the words confront or lie...and you shouldn't have to choose between ignorance and a one hour drive to someone else...and if you truly believe she won't level with you (though I personally think you should verify that), you can; A) choose not to do the comp, B) make an hour long drive...or C) realize that you are accepting the situation and relinquishing your right to gripe about it....I would not dance at a studio that wouldn't answer my questions...I'll pay a king's ransom if they are worth it and I will go to the ends of the earth to dance there...but if they don't level with me...game over...just my two cents ...good luck

[Josh]

Good advice fasc...

[danceronice]

Whether or not going to a competition is justified is entirely up to you. I go because I love to compete, so I go to competitions. If I didn't compete, there wouldn't be anything to prep for. Plus I dance better in my lessons after a competition. I love being at a competition, going out and dancing for judges, cheering on other people from my studio, the whole experience.

[fascination]

Of course I still have the option to not to do the competition. But ...
I wonder what is the reason for others to do a pro/am competition.
Personally, for me, I felt the competition itself was nothing, but the prep before hand is what is valuable for me.

I mean, for a competition with only 2 or 3 contestants to compete against in an event, I don't feel the pressure of competing at all. But the lessons leading up to the competition are often more rigorious and effective than lessons at other time of the year. I am not sure if this is because I am paying more attention, or because my teacher is more dedicated when preparing for a comp. And as competitions are expensive, I feel that it is not justifiable to go for a comp just becuase of the lessons beforehand are better. Any thoughts?to me it isn't the number of contestants but the calibre of them that makes a difference...

but there are, for me, other fine reasons to compete... having a comp can present a milepost for certain accomplishments, not neccessary, but it does tend to motivate me...

I must say I have greater respect for teachers who stay motivated no matter how far off a comp is and I think that has generally been my experience... if it isn't your experience, I wouldn't be thrilled with that instructor. Though all folks gear up near a comp, mine have always been intense on every lesson.

I also like to compete b/c a comp is an opportunity (without stopping and in a public place) to let it fly and see what sticks from the hours and hours of practice...not that I throw all the technique out the window at all, but that the atmosphere in and of itself presents a challenge for maintaining one's good skills in addition to demanding so many other skills.

Having said that, if you don't enjoy competing for goodness sakes don't do it...it does cost a blue fortune and there is nothing that makes you automatically nobler or a better dancer b/c you do...for me, it is a huge motivator...but that is just me...and I can afford the time and financial committment that it takes

[fascination]

Good advice fasc...
thank you sir

[muyv]

This is to fascination's earlier reply:

No offence taken. English is not my first language. Always in the mood to learn how to pick my words precisely and wisely.

And what a great little paragraph you have given here. I think I will follow your suggestion! Sometimes it is exactly because I don't know how to carry on a difficult conversation, I let go of the oppertunities when I should speak up. Will try to make it right this time.

[fascination]

honestly ;)...I think it probably has nothing to do with your first language...I just meant that I hear alot of folks say; ...."I need to contront them..."....and I always think: WHY?...there is plenty of space between being a doormat/pansy/wimp and being an aggressive/in your face type....and truly the middle ground is more difficult...that is why so few take it...that is all I meant...you just get all these folks who have a month of therapy or read a self-help book for something and then go around with their baseball bat of righteousness... and well...it may be cathartic but it usually just causes more mess

[muyv]

NO. she won't level with me.

She said it is a confidencial whole sale package between the studio and the competition. She said she can't tell me how much the studio is making or how much the teacher makes.

Now I need to think what I should do about the comp....

[Larinda McRaven]

That is the studios perogative. You don't ask what their rent is and why they charge what they do for the lessons.

I don't get to know what the clothing store paid for the clothes before they sell to me. I don't know their markup, profit, or what the sales commision is when I buy something.

Sometimes all I know is it cost $X, and it is worth it for me... or it is not. Sometimes that is all you can go on.

[and123]

NO. she won't level with me.

She said it is a confidencial whole sale package between the studio and the competition. She said she can't tell me how much the studio is making or how much the teacher makes.

Now I need to think what I should do about the comp....


Pile of crap. Get out as soon as possible.

[and123]

allow me to elaborate: if she had said "We do make a profit, but we'd rather not reveal all of our financial information to our students", I'd swallow that slightly better than calling it Top Secret information. There are ways of finding this out, and hiding things does not make for a good business relationship. Why would a comp swear its entering studios to secrecy? Surely not all of them are charging their students the same amount? Something just doesn't smell right....

[Laura]

It used to be very common practice for the comp organizers to give their wholesale price lists to the studios, and the studios would make up packages and present the whole thing fait acompli to to the students. As time has gone on, and more and more independent teachers and students get involved in competitions, and prices start getting posted on the internet, this practice has also started to change.

Anyway, if it's worth it to you to compete with that studio and that teacher, then pay the price. If not, then don't. But don't expect them to change their business practices for you -- it might behoove you to start looking for a new studio and a new teacher.

[skipper]

Studios need to make a profit in order to stay open/in business. They do alot of "behind the scenes work that a student never sees.

Perhaps a converstion with the owner would be helpful. Always make I statements---
I understand the studio cannot afford to loose $$$ with teachers out of the studio
I understand that a profit needs to be made
I appreciate all the work that goes into getting me ready for a comp (dress selection, makeup/hair advice, answering questions etc.)
I want to compete, but just need to understand the costs involved.

Maybe this way the lines of communications will be open. In my studio, for each day the teacher is gone, a daily rate of $400 is charged (to cover studio loss), his expenses are split amoung all students attending (if you are the only one it is your responsibility) and the teacher is paid a professional fee as well for each student.
This is not cheap---but there is always a way and you always have a choice

[muyv]

I did say that I understand that studio needs to add charges to cover their cost. I also said that I would like to know what I am paying for to help me making my decisions. I didn't ask for what she is paying for the teacher etc, I was asking out of the total sum, how much I am paying for the studio, and how much I am paying for the competition.

And I am asking because the price has increased 50% comparing with the same competition last year.

[SDsalsaguy]

I think all the advice being provided so far can be distilled down into two general points.

(1) If the price being offered is worth it to you, than the break down doesn't matter.
(2) If you need a break down to justify the amount (which is perfectly legitimate; heck, I would to!), than the fact that the owner here refuses to provide it clearly marks this as no longer the right place for you... at least not for competition purposes.

[muyv]

That being said, I do understand the analogy with the clothing store. The thing is that in that situation, one can go to the next store and compare the price on a similar item, and quickly figure out the market value.

Here it is a lot more difficult to do so. So it is a situation that where the studio is (presumely) taking advantage of the information, rather than making money based on the service they provide.

I suppose the studio is the one deciding the rules of the game. I am just not sure that this is the kind of game I want to be in. And I feel it a pity, because I do like my teacher, and wanted to compete. Now I don't feel comfortable doing business with such an owner.

[muyv]

yes, good summary, salsaguy.

I suppose it is cristal clear what the options are at this time. I am just whining here for the absense of an option 3. But well, sometimes, I do that when I really want the option 3....

Thanks for all your advices.

At least I went and asked. I am proud of myself to collect the courage to do so :)

[fascination]

NO. she won't level with me.

She said it is a confidencial whole sale package between the studio and the competition. She said she can't tell me how much the studio is making or how much the teacher makes.

Now I need to think what I should do about the comp....
I would refuse to go...case closed...while the individual pro might be unable to talk to you about specifics...it is total poo-poo that the studio owner can't...sorry... end of discussion

[fascination]

echoing L and SD...while the studio doesn't need to justify their cut....they also shouldn't be squemish about saying "that is our cut, it is how we cover our expenses"....and then you take it or leave it

[Angel HI]

yes, good summary, salsaguy.

I suppose it is cristal clear what the options are at this time. I am just whining here for the absense of an option 3. But well, sometimes, I do that when I really want the option 3....

Thanks for all your advices. :)

Excellent post. We all do this. Kudos for recognizing it, and Kudos for coming to the DF. Welcome, and bonne chance.

[danceronice]

While I agree it's their right to charge what they want, I also agree with those who say, no breakdown, no go. I have never had anyone at my studio refuse to show me paperwork or to explain how costs break down, be it for lessons, coaching, or competitions. I would be very put off by anyone who did. In real estate, I have to explain up front if my clients ask how the fee works, exactly what it is, and that they are responsible for it (either by paying it or renting from a landlord who splits it with them or pays it.)

[LatinDancer006]

Why would you want a brake down of their charges? So, you could pick apart each item and try to persuade them to come down on them, thus sacraficing their profits? If I were the studio owner, I'd be offended. Who are you to come in and try to micromanage my expenses, etc. and how much profit I can make. I think you'd be wasting your energy with this approach not to mention that you might damage your rapport with the instructor and the owner. A better approach would be to go to the owner and tell them you were thinking about doing the competition but the 30% increase in price is making it not feasible for me, is there some sort of discount we can work out? If what they tell you is still not workable then don't do the competition. Let market forces work. If they don't get enough students going this year, they might reconsider the 30% increase.

I know you all are addicted to dance, but geez, practice some self controll and don't buy at whatever price they tell you.

[mamboqueen]

Why would you want a brake down of their charges? So, you could pick apart each item and try to persuade them to come down on them, thus sacraficing their profits? If I were the studio owner, I'd be offended. Who are you to come in and try to micromanage my expenses, etc. and how much profit I can make. I think you'd be wasting your energy with this approach not to mention that you might damage your rapport with the instructor and the owner. A better approach would be to go to the owner and tell them you were thinking about doing the competition but the 30% increase in price is making it not feasible for me, is there some sort of discount we can work out? If what they tell you is still not workable then don't do the competition. Let market forces work. If they don't get enough students going this year, they might reconsider the 30% increase.

I know you all are addicted to dance, but geez, practice some self controll and don't buy at whatever price they tell you.


I don't think people are looking to micromanage other's expenses; I think they just want an idea of what is what in the pricing - maybe so they can compare, maybe so they can drop a portion of the service if the price is too high. Say you bring your car to the garage and they want to fix a few things -- do you think it is wrong and offensive to ask the owner to break down the price by each item? Every mechanic I know shows parts and labor. I don't see why someone would get offended by being asked a simple question like that -- unless they had something that they didn't want to reveal for whatever reason.

There is nothing wrong with someone wanting to be an informed consumer - in fact, I'd find it more unusual that people wouldn't want to be.

Thankfully I have been lucky enough to have teachers who don't see a problem in breaking things down (and I don't mean that I need to know they're spending $10 on breakfast).

[LatinDancer006]

I don't think people are looking to micromanage other's expenses; I think they just want an idea of what is what in the pricing - maybe so they can compare, maybe so they can drop a portion of the service if the price is too high. Say you bring your car to the garage and they want to fix a few things -- do you think it is wrong and offensive to ask the owner to break down the price by each item? Every mechanic I know shows parts and labor. I don't see why someone would get offended by being asked a simple question like that -- unless they had something that they didn't want to reveal for whatever reason.

There is nothing wrong with someone wanting to be an informed consumer - in fact, I'd find it more unusual that people wouldn't want to be.

Thankfully I have been lucky enough to have teachers who don't see a problem in breaking things down (and I don't mean that I need to know they're spending $10 on breakfast).

You make a good point. I didn't think of those ancillary services. I've heard some franchise studios charge you a fee for having some one to go to your hotel room to wake you up in the morning and to make sure you have your make up on, to make sure you are properly dressed for the comp (ie. that you are wearing underwear under your skirt), etc... kind like a personal assistant.

[latingal]

LatinDancer006, I agree with MQ, I would like to be an informed consumer - especially when I have other vendors offering the same or similar services. The studio owner has the right to refuse to provide a breakdown, just as I have a right to go with another vendor. If I as a consumer don't wish to blindly pay a lump sum for a product with a variety of services, the owner risks losing me (and others perhaps) as a customer and he/she has to decide if that risk is worth not providing the requested information.

[latingal]

oops looks like we posted at the same time....but you're kidding about the personal assistant thing right?

[Laura]

I suppose the studio is the one deciding the rules of the game.
Only in the case of studios that operate that way. Not all do. Some studios are made up of collections of independent teachers, each teacher sets their own rates and has their own policies. I've danced at several of these over the years -- they are also the most popular form of competitive studio in my area. So maybe you can find a studio like that?

[Laura]

Why would you want a brake down of their charges? So, you could pick apart each item and try to persuade them to come down on them, thus sacraficing their profits?
No, so I could see where my money is going so that next time around I can choose better to get the most value. For instance, if there's a "travel" fee component, then maybe I'll pick comps closer to home to save money in the future. Or if there's a "base fee per day" component, then maybe I will pick competitions that have all my events on the same day so I don't incur a second day's fees. Or if I find out that the studio charges the same whether I do 10 entries or 20, maybe I'll do 15 next time to get more value for my money in that respect.

If I were the studio owner, I'd be offended. Who are you to come in and try to micromanage my expenses, etc. and how much profit I can make. I think you'd be wasting your energy with this approach not to mention that you might damage your rapport with the instructor and the owner.
I agree that this is a risk that in this situation. But sometimes all the buyer/customer wants is just a little more information so they can understand what is going on, and when they get that extra information they become fine with everything. So if you're paranoid that giving someone more information will make them micromanage you rather than go "oh, I see, now I get it, this is fine," then I think that is a bit of a problem right there.

A better approach would be to go to the owner and tell them you were thinking about doing the competition but the 30% increase in price is making it not feasible for me, is there some sort of discount we can work out? If what they tell you is still not workable then don't do the competition. Let market forces work. If they don't get enough students going this year, they might reconsider the 30% increase.
This is a good suggestion. I basically had two stints in Pro/Am...a short one, then a 3 1/2 year break, and now my 10-year run. The first time, so many years ago, I took at a studio that would present me with a number and tell me that is what it would cost to compete. It was X dollars for Y entries and Z nights at the hotel. Well, I'd say to them, I simply cannot afford that. I would like to compete but I live 15 minutes from the hotel so it's ridiculous for me to stay there, and I really can only afford to do so many entries. Every time they would say "well, we'll have to think about it" and every time they would come back to me with a new set of numbers that were more affordable for me. I am fortunate that the studio would rather have some of my money than none of it. So that is another approach, but that also might backfire -- they might tell you "no" and they might start 'stimulating' you to leave the studio by changing your teacher or your lesson time slots. But my feeling is hey, if it comes down to that, you don't want to be there anyway.

[Angel HI]

Hey Guys,

This is a popular topic from time to time on the DF. This is an appropriate comment.....

A better approach would be to go to the owner and tell them you were thinking about doing the competition but the 30% increase in price is making it not feasible for me, is there some sort of discount we can work out?

This is not....

.... to make sure you are properly dressed for the comp (ie. that you are wearing underwear under your skirt), etc... kind like a personal assistant.

Let's keep it mellow and interesting, OK? Thanks.

[LatinDancer006]

:confused: ?????

[LatinDancer006]

oops looks like we posted at the same time....but you're kidding about the personal assistant thing right?


This was at least a decade ago. And I don't know if "personal assistant" would be an accurate label in the sense that they do not go get your coffee or dry cleaning, etc. for you. But what this person would do is look after their clients to kind of take the stress off of competition. Mostly for newcomer's who have never competed and don't know what to expect.

[Larinda McRaven]

The only problem I see with presenting an bill with an undisclosed breakdown is that students can often interpret the price to be "for the weekend".

This is awkward when they expect to have an escort for the whole weekend, and yet I only charged them for my expenses and per dance. If I am not getting paid to be with someone at 6am, don't expect me to be there to do your hair for you... make sure your dance pants cover the appropriate pieces... or give you two HOURS of run throughs and prep time before you walk on the floor. I am not a personal assistant, social buddy, or escort.

So giving a break down helps keep reasonable expectations as to what my job is for the weekend.
***
But I AM NOT a fan of having to argue over how much I mark things up, or having to defend the fact that I expect my parking, tolls and taxis to be covered and still want to come home in the black not in the red.

[Warren J. Dew]

The only problem I see with presenting an bill with an undisclosed breakdown is that students can often interpret the price to be "for the weekend".

This is awkward when they expect to have an escort for the whole weekend, and yet I only charged them for my expenses and per dance. If I am not getting paid to be with someone at 6am, don't expect me to be there to do your hair for you... make sure your dance pants cover the appropriate pieces... or give you two HOURS of run throughs and prep time before you walk on the floor. I am not a personal assistant, social buddy, or escort.

So giving a break down helps keep reasonable expectations as to what my job is for the weekend.

The flip side of that is that, as LatinDancer006 says, some studios do expect to be doing some of that stuff - maybe not making sure about the dance pants, but making sure the student is in the right place at the right time and maybe doing makeup or hair for them, and also doing some dancing with them during any social dancing and things like that. Studios that do that stuff might have a hard time breaking it down, so it might be reasonable for them to offer a total package price without providing a breakdown. The students can always say "no" to the price.

[SDsalsaguy]

Agreed Warren, but such a studio should then be able to say "x" amount/day is for such services to its students at an event, no?

I'd be the first to say that I would not trust any pro/studio that is not willing to provide a general breakdown of where the money goes. At the same time I think students who bicker over how much a taxi fair "should" cost are being ridiculous. Many pros charge a per diem for food, for example, most of whom do not then adjuct this up for expensive hotels.

So, overall, I personally wouldn't trust anyone not willing to give me a general breakdown. Once that is provided, however, it is up to the student to use that information to decide if what events it is worth it to them to do... not to bicker with the pro about the costs provided. The pro has every right to set whatever prices they want; and the student has every right to elect not to incur those charges.

[Joe]

If you are being billed for X hours of a pro's "lost time" at a competition you have every right to expect that pro to attend to you in any dance-related capacity you choose for that X hours, whether it's competing with you on the dance floor, or helping with your hair and makeup, or social dancing with you.

[Larinda McRaven]

Yes, which is why I charge per dance and not per day.

[Warren J. Dew]

Agreed Warren, but such a studio should then be able to say "x" amount/day is for such services to its students at an event, no?

They may not know in advance which students are going to need how much care, but they may still want to provide a fixed price in advance.

So, overall, I personally wouldn't trust anyone not willing to give me a general breakdown. Once that is provided, however, it is up to the student to use that information to decide if what events it is worth it to them to do... not to bicker with the pro about the costs provided. The pro has every right to set whatever prices they want; and the student has every right to elect not to incur those charges.

I just take that one step further; the pro has a right to provide a breakdown, or decline to spend the effort to even figure out a breakdown, and the student has every right to elect not to incur the charges. I personally don't buy that kind of "package deal", but given that some people seem happy to do so, I don't object to their being offered.

[Joe]

Yes, which is why I charge per dance and not per day.
And as long as you charge your fees as per dance, there should be no confusion as to what services are included in your time. :)

[Angel HI]

If you are being billed for X hours of a pro's "lost time" at a competition you have every right to expect that pro to attend to you in any dance-related capacity you choose for that X hours, whether it's competing with you on the dance floor, or helping with your hair and makeup, or social dancing with you.

Simply unrealistic. I can not be there for every person and everything. I attend to the student's as they need to be attended to, but I decide what that is b/c I want to do a nice job...not b/c of some selfish inclination that I owe any one person more time than another b/c they paid dor it.

[syncopationator]

If you are being billed for X hours of a pro's "lost time" at a competition you have every right to expect that pro to attend to you in any dance-related capacity you choose for that X hours, whether it's competing with you on the dance floor, or helping with your hair and makeup, or social dancing with you.

Not exactly. Its not just the lost teaching hours that go into the pro fee.

Other factors include time away from home and family, the pro's own preparation including their make up, taning, etc., costuming (if its a lady pro who is wearing a $3K ballgown to dance with her student or a male pro wearing a $2K tailsuit, etc.), meals. All these factors must be taken into consideration when analyzing the pro fee.

The pro is there to compete with you, not be your personal assistant or hairdresser, makeup artist or whatever else you think they are supposed to do.

[Joe]

Simply unrealistic. I can not be there for every person and everything. I attend to the student's as they need to be attended to, but I decide what that is b/c I want to do a nice job...not b/c of some selfish inclination that I owe any one person more time than another b/c they paid dor it.
When you take your car to a mechanic, you expect them to be using the time that you are being billed to actually work on your car, not watch TV in the lounge. Would you like it (and pay it) if you were billed for four hours for a 30-minute job? "Sure, we'll change your oil. That'll be $30 in parts and four hours labor."

If you are billing a student for "lost time," you owe them that time--they are paying for it. No, they don't have the right to be waited on hand and foot--because you are there as a dance professional, not a go-fer--but if a student wanted dance instruction every single minute of the X hours you are billing them, aside from the competition entries, you darn well owe it to them.

[Laura]

When you take your car to a mechanic, you expect them to be using the time that you are being billed to actually work on your car, not watch TV in the lounge. Would you like it (and pay it) if you were billed for four hours for a 30-minute job? "Sure, we'll change your oil. That'll be $30 in parts and four hours labor."
Uh, Joe, that's kind of how some mechanics work, such as the Mercedes-Benz place my dad used to take his car to and the Subaru place I used to go to. They have a book that says how much time a job takes, and bill you for that amount of time whether they spend that much on it or not. So if a one-hour job takes 30 minutes, you still have to pay for the full hour.

[mamboqueen]

Uh, Joe, that's kind of how some mechanics work, such as the Mercedes-Benz place my dad used to take his car to and the Subaru place I used to go to. They have a book that says how much time a job takes, and bill you for that amount of time whether they spend that much on it or not. So if a one-hour job takes 30 minutes, you still have to pay for the full hour.

Well, then think lawyers. They bill by the hour (and trust me, many I have seen embellish...lesson: always look over and question your bill if it seems funky) and wouldn't you expect that they are working on your matter if they are billing you for that time? Auto mechanics aren't a good comparison because of just what you stated.

[Joe]

If a lawyer is thinking about your case while he's sitting on the pot taking care of business, he's gonna bill you for the time :rolleyes:

Uh, Joe, that's kind of how some mechanics work, such as the Mercedes-Benz place my dad used to take his car to and the Subaru place I used to go to. They have a book that says how much time a job takes, and bill you for that amount of time whether they spend that much on it or not. So if a one-hour job takes 30 minutes, you still have to pay for the full hour.
Perhaps that's not the perfect example. However, what if the "book" says a job will take an hour, and you're billed four?

[mamboqueen]

If a lawyer is thinking about your case while he's sitting on the pot taking care of business, he's gonna bill you for the time :rolleyes:




You're not exaggerating much there, ;). I quit after seeing "creative" billing at law firms I worked at...especially when I was penalized for not playing the game.

[Angel HI]

Come on, Joe. I can see that you understood the point very well by your post....

No, they don't have the right to be waited on hand and foot--because you are there as a dance professional, not a go-fer--

Of course, I am going to give them my complete professional time and attention, but, they are there [most often] as part of a group. They have been charged accordingly. As a teacher, in the same manner as when I teach french in school, I professionally divide the time between all in the comp/class, fully aware that everyone has paid the same tuition.

[Warren J. Dew]

Uh, Joe, that's kind of how some mechanics work, such as the Mercedes-Benz place my dad used to take his car to and the Subaru place I used to go to. They have a book that says how much time a job takes, and bill you for that amount of time whether they spend that much on it or not. So if a one-hour job takes 30 minutes, you still have to pay for the full hour.

A lot of garages work that way. Of course, if they take three hours, you still only get billed for one hour.

It's kind of like how most pros generally bill the same amount for an entry whether one gets cut in the first round or makes it all the way to the final (when there are multiple rounds).

[LatinDancer006]

I wonder has any one ever given their Pro a 1099 at the end of the year for the comp fees?

[mamboqueen]

eee! I usually just give him a nice card and cookies. :)

[Larinda McRaven]

When you take your car to a mechanic, you expect them to be using the time that you are being billed to actually work on your car, not watch TV in the lounge. Would you like it (and pay it) if you were billed for four hours for a 30-minute job? "Sure, we'll change your oil. That'll be $30 in parts and four hours labor."


The problem is that I am forced to lose my 8 hour day everyday when I travel. I may dance for 2, but I Cannot make up the missing 6.

And yes, if you booked the mechanic to travel to you then I bet he is billing you for lost time at the shop.

Today was a full day of travel and chaos, unpacking, tanning, preperation and dinner with the students. I could not teach today. But I am not dancing until tomorrow. How do I make up my lost income today??? And how do I make it up on the day I travel home. I am 7 days without teaching for USDC. But I am only supposed to get paid for the few hours on 4 days that I am competing pro-am? An entire week vs. 10 hours... hhmnn?

[Nik]

Good point. Don't most comps post their prices online?


The problem is that I am forced to lose my 8 hour day everyday when I travel. I may dance for 2, but I Cannot make up the missing 6.

And yes, if you booked the mechanic to travel to you then I bet he is billing you for lost time at the shop.

Today was a full day of travel and chaos, unpacking, tanning, preperation and dinner with the students. I could not teach today. But I am not dancing until tomorrow. How do I make up my lost income today??? And how do I make it up on the day I travel home. I am 7 days without teaching for USDC. But I am only supposed to get paid for the few hours on 4 days that I am competing pro-am? An entire week vs. 10 hours... hhmnn?

[NielsenE]

I think Joe's point wasn't that you shouldn't be compensated for that time, but IF you provide the student's with a detailed break-out (which you've already indicated that you do a higher level break-out), then you should be careful of calling it "lost lesson".

Perhaps its just as simple as calling it "Lost Income" instead; the intent is not to give the student the impression that they "deserve" to receive that many lessons worth of attention at the competition, unless that is your intent.

I've heard of some studios that only charge the teacher's wage + rent/utilities levy (taking out studio profit, etc from the calculation). Of course they might add the studio profit angle back in via a per-dance markup, etc. But that level of detail isn't what students should expect/demand from the instructor.



To me the key factor is : is sufficient information provided to interested students to understand/predict which competitions are more affordable to compete at, at this studio:
-- how is travel accounted for (is it broken out, hidden, or flat fee for all competitions)
-- how are entries/mult-dances prices or is it an all you can eat for fixed price
-- what's the daily overhead and does it vary with number of students (I would expect this it include meals, lodging, and the whole issue of lost income)
-- are students allowed/encourage/forbidden from making their own travel/lodging/food arrangements? (with the understanding that frugality on the part of the student, in no way, places a similar restriction on the instructor)


As Laura pointed out earlier, this level of breakdown lets a student understand the trade off of multiple styles on different days, or multiple one-day local events, etc. If the travel and overhead are split among students it lets them know that evangelizing the comp to other students is a helpful thing.

[Joe]

The problem is that I am forced to lose my 8 hour day everyday when I travel. I may dance for 2, but I Cannot make up the missing 6.

And yes, if you booked the mechanic to travel to you then I bet he is billing you for lost time at the shop.

Today was a full day of travel and chaos, unpacking, tanning, preperation and dinner with the students. I could not teach today. But I am not dancing until tomorrow. How do I make up my lost income today??? And how do I make it up on the day I travel home. I am 7 days without teaching for USDC. But I am only supposed to get paid for the few hours on 4 days that I am competing pro-am? An entire week vs. 10 hours... hhmnn?
The point is not that you should not be able to charge students a "lost lesson" fee, it's that they deserve the time they are paying for, whether it's getting you ready or actually dancing with them. If you want to bill them for prep/travel days, that's fine. But if you aren't spending the whole day traveling...

Do school teachers get paid for the time they spend preparing lesson plans?

And Angel HI, if you are billing students eight hours of your time, it doesn't matter how many there are; obviously you cannot spend all of your time with one student if there is more than one. However, the students as a collective should receive those eight hours of your time that they are being charged. Now, charging more than one student your full "lost lesson" fee is another issue...

[2totango]

School teachers get paid for 12 months of work, even though they typically work 9, so "prep time" is included in that payment for 12 months of work.

Seems to me, and I've only gone to two (small) competitions is that the instructor has the option to bill his/her time as he/she wishes, whether it be on a daily basis or on 'lessons lost' and if this is explained to the student, the student may choose to attend or not.

If an instructor is billing for 8 hours of time during a comp, then the 8 hours (I would think) would be dedicated to students, whether it be comp preparation, studio-based socializing after a day's competition, or social dancing. After the 8 hours, though, I would think the instructor is free to do as he pleases, with the students realizing before the competition that the instructor isn't going to be their 'best friend' for every single second of the competition.
Just my .02$

[emeralddancer]

May I ask something with out it being snarky? And if I ask this wrong I do so apologize in advance. I am not trying to be a smart a$$. Really I am not!

So how many instructors actually put in a FULL 8 hours a day? I know some instructors are in HIGH demand and often put in more than 10/12 hours. But many of the instructors that aren't as high profile have maybe 4 or so hours a day with students. And most classes (privates) are usually billed at 45 mins per lesson so not even a full hour. So .... then why?

Also what Joe said "Now, charging more than one student your full "lost lesson" fee is another issue..." I am sorry I have a problem if my instructor took 4 of us to comp and billed each of us a full 8 hour day PLUS the other things. Thats 32 hours he is recieving on 1 - 8 hour day!

I am ALL for making money really ... but sometimes it can be a bitter pill to swallow. Eh ... I am in it for the long haul.

[etp777]

My feeling is to go ahead and charge what you want, but don't call it a lost lesson fee (even if you use that exact number to figure what you're charging). Just call it your flat rate for taking a student to a comp, and leave it at that.

[Standarddancer]

I wonder has any one ever given their Pro a 1099 at the end of the year for the comp fees?

Don't issue to them; issue directly to IRS...lol...

[LatinDancer006]

:uplaugh: There'll be so many withholding (esp. for non-resident pros) that there won't be any left over for fees for lessons loss. I'd agree that you should not call it fees for lessons loss. You shouldn't bill for opportunity lost. First of all b/c it has nothing directly to do with the comp service you provide, and second of all your "lessons lost" is not a guaranty. What if two of your students who takes 2 hrs lessons each cancel b/c they got sick or had some type of an emergency. So, let's just call it profit! Plan and simple.

[Laura]

My feeling is to go ahead and charge what you want, but don't call it a lost lesson fee (even if you use that exact number to figure what you're charging). Just call it your flat rate for taking a student to a comp, and leave it at that.
I know some teachers who have a moderate flat fee, and then put moderate per-dance fees on top of it, and then plane/hotel on top of that. So there is the "start" fee, which is the same no matter if the comp is local or away or if lots of students go or only one. Then there are the per-dance fees, which means the students who do a lot of entries pay more than the ones who don't (seems fair). Then there is the plane/hotel fee, which gets divided up amongst the number of attending students.

This all makes sense to me: students who dance more pay more, a comp that is more expensive to travel to costs more, and there's still that flat fee for taking a student to a comp to cover all the things related to going to a comp like dry cleaning, buying tanner, general wear and tear, time lost traveling to the comp, food, etc etc etc.

[emeralddancer]

What if the instructor/pro was going to be at the comp anyway (regardless of his/her students going to compete) dancing with his/her partner in the pro/pro heats and has students go for pr/am heats? then what? still being charged for their incidentails even though they are there for themselves as well?

These are just questions that pop up. Not sure why, outside of the fact I am an information seeker.

I don't have a problem paying ... I just like being knowledgable AND I think these are all valid questions.

[etp777]

I'd still expect them to charge for it. When i used to travel to see multiple clients in DFW area (coming from OKC) would charge them same incidentals, whether I was going to see 1 or 3 in the trip. Now, they wouldn't get charged for days that didn't involve them. One trip I was at city of Coppell for two days, at the plano childrens hospital for one, and at a third client for one. First got charged two days, other two got chararged like a one day of work and the associated travel. Because it can very well be argued exactly the other way. What if pro wasn't copmeting with their partner, they'd still be at the comp to compete with you.

[Laura]

What if the instructor/pro was going to be at the comp anyway (regardless of his/her students going to compete) dancing with his/her partner in the pro/pro heats and has students go for pr/am heats? then what? still being charged for their incidentails even though they are there for themselves as well?
Yes, it is customary, although I do hear every once in a great while of pros who charge less if they were going to be there anyway.

Due to the wear-and-tear and timing and stress caused by dancing with students at a comp that one is competing in, I have no issue with paying the standard fee structure whether the pro is competing or not. There are times that my teacher has danced with both me and his Pro partner in the same session, I'm sure that's not easy for them as they don't get the kind of warm-up they would get if I wasn't there, and my teacher isn't going to be as "fresh" if I wasn't there, so I figure it's fair.

I don't have a problem paying ... I just like being knowledgable AND I think these are all valid questions.
Yes, it was a good question.

[syncopationator]

No offense to anyone, but what I find absolutely hilarious about this thread is it has been hijacked by Ams who don't even dance Pro/Am.:uplaugh:

Nothing against anyone sharing their opinion on this thread, because afterall, that's what DF is about. But from going back through and reading the various posts, it's the Ams that don't dance pro/am that seem to be getting all worked up about things. :confused:

This thread is about Pro/Am comp fees... The Am's that actually dance pro/am seem to be pretty well informed and educated consumers and are willing to share this knowledge with others. Especially those like the original poster who are newbies to the industry.

Bottom line, whether you are seaking legal advice, a mechanic or a dance teacher, as a consumer have a choice. If you do not feel that your pro is worth what they charge to compete with you, then find another one... Its really that simple...

And if you feel like you are being ripped off or getting the short end of the stick and you remain with your attorney, mechanic or dance teacher, then :doh:!!!

Seriously!!!

[JANATHOME]

Actually not always true Synco,
I dance am/am only but when I do chain competitions the AM is paying under the same exact pay structure as a pro/am..... So for myself, I can understand and follow along with this conversation even as an AM. You want to talk about getting your feathers all ruffled, I pay for our pros, even though I never dance with them, sometimes dont even talk to them because they have thier hands full with the pro/am entries....

But I know going in that I will pay more for a chain comp than dancing AM/AM anywhere else so I cant complain. Still knowing all of this I still choose to do chain competitions for reasons that are not entirely driven by cost.

[syncopationator]

But I know going in that I will pay more for a chain comp than dancing AM/AM anywhere else so I cant complain. Still knowing all of this I still choose to do chain competitions for reasons that are not entirely driven by cost.

Well there you go... you are an informed consumer. It must be worth it to you to do these competitions if you are willing to pay that much for it. Maybe you are overpaying for the dancing, but perhaps there is a social reason for going.

I understand completely. I pay almost twice my regular lesson rate to send my mother to Fred Astaire because she is most happy there. I would never pay that for myself, but it provides her with a social outlet that independent studios around this area can't offer. So for me its worth it.

[etp777]

I konw I pay more for the closed comps for two reasons. One, my studio doesn't do open (though I'm sure I could convince pro to do so if I really wanted to). but two, and main reason, is the social aspect, as you said. I know probably 50% minimum of competitors at those comps. Not jsut from my studio, but ALL the FAs in area, and I would rather dance in front of/against/with them than go to an open comp where I don't know anyone. Maybe not best competition wise (though I've certainly had good competition so far), but the social part makes up for it.

[emeralddancer]

No offense to anyone, but what I find absolutely hilarious about this thread is it has been hijacked by Ams who don't even dance Pro/Am.:uplaugh:

Nothing against anyone sharing their opinion on this thread, because afterall, that's what DF is about. But from going back through and reading the various posts, it's the Ams that don't dance pro/am that seem to be getting all worked up about things. :confused:

This thread is about Pro/Am comp fees... The Am's that actually dance pro/am seem to be pretty well informed and educated consumers and are willing to share this knowledge with others. Especially those like the original poster who are newbies to the industry.

Bottom line, whether you are seaking legal advice, a mechanic or a dance teacher, as a consumer have a choice. If you do not feel that your pro is worth what they charge to compete with you, then find another one... Its really that simple...

And if you feel like you are being ripped off or getting the short end of the stick and you remain with your attorney, mechanic or dance teacher, then :doh:!!!

Seriously!!!

Just because I have not competed yet doesn't mean I should not ask questions to be informed. What is so wrong with that? There is nothing funny about asking questions. That is how one becomes better informed at what to expect. And how is it hijacking a thread?

I was always told no question is a dumb question. Am I wrong? But because I am not knowledgable about pro/am doesn't mean I shouldn't ask for the info and be well informed for when I finally do compete. NOR was I complaining about the fees. Nor was I worked up. As I stated earlier, I am more than willing to pay my instructor because I have complete faith in him and my studio. I just ask questions that seem to fit and seek answers.

Thankfully people here have been most forthcoming to share their vast knowledge and wisdom.

Sorry if this was to be light hearted, but the uplaugh made it a bit personal?! But yeah ... I didn't take it as such. :(

[emeralddancer]

Well there you go... you are an informed consumer.


By asking questions and having them answered .... makes me a better informed consumer do you not think? or an AM for that matter!

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Just because I have not competed yet doesn't mean I should not ask questions to be informed. What is so wrong with that? There is nothing funny about asking questions. That is how one becomes better informed at what to expect. And how is it hijacking a thread?

I was always told no question is a dumb question. Am I wrong? But because I am not knowledgable about pro/am doesn't mean I shouldn't ask for the info and be well informed for when I finally do compete. NOR was I complaining about the fees. Nor was I worked up. As I stated earlier, I am more than willing to pay my instructor because I have complete faith in him and my studio. I just ask questions that seem to fit and seek answers.

Thankfully people here have been most forthcoming to share their vast knowledge and wisdom.

Sorry if this was to be light hearted, but the uplaugh made it a bit personal?! But yeah ... I didn't take it as such. :(
I don't think syncopationator's post was directed at you or other amateurs who don't dance Pro/Am because they have not yet started. Rather, he was addressing people like Joe and Warren J. Dew - amateurs who don't dance Pro/Am because they dance Amateur/Amateur instead. :)

[syncopationator]

By asking questions and having them answered .... makes me a better informed consumer do you not think? or an AM for that matter!

Absolutely ;)

And sorry for the uplaugh... I was only saying that people seem to be getting worked up about it, not that they shouldn't opine - I thought I made that clear in the second paragraph.

Asking questions is what this forum is all about - its a good thing. But I do find it comical that most of the ones that do complain about the costs of pro/am dancing don't actually compete pro/am (or have any intention to do so). Or maybe I'm way wrong... Perhaps if the cost would come down then they too would compete pro/am. Maybe I missed the point completely :???:

But my comment doesn't originate with this thread. Ever since I started dancing I've gotten negative feedback from non-dancers about the amount of mulla I spend on dancing... But perhaps more concerning is that I have also gotten the snobby comment or two from ams that don't do pro/am for the same reason. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I really enjoy dancing and pro/am dancing in particular so I'm a huge advocate for pro/am (or an Ambassador for male pro/ams as Larinda has appointed me :)).

And by the way, I dance Am/Am too (just have to figure out the small issue of finding a new partner... but I'm working on it)

[samina]

And by the way, I dance Am/Am too (just have to figure out the small issue of finding a new partner... but I'm working on it)
They're gonna start coming out of the woodwork for you now with that revelation. ;)

[etp777]

They're gonna start coming out of the woodwork for you now with that revelation. ;)

Agreed, can't see Sync having much trouble finding a partner.

[Nik]

How about someone posts what would be the ideal fee structure for them. Whether you dance pro-am or not, what do YOU think it should be.

[samina]

Nope

[Laura]

But I do find it comical that most of the ones that do complain about the costs of pro/am dancing don't actually compete pro/am (or have any intention to do so). Or maybe I'm way wrong...
No, I've been doing this for years and agree with your observation that the two groups that complain the most about costs are the people who didn't ask any questions in advance and found themselves paying $5000 to dance a few heats with a no-name teacher and didn't know that it didn't have to be that expensive, and the people who only dance Amateur and have no intention to ever dance Pro/Am and feel like they need to save those of us who do Pro/Am from ourselves. So you're not way wrong.

Perhaps if the cost would come down then they too would compete pro/am. Maybe I missed the point completely :???:
I doubt that much of the anti-Pro/Am crowd would ever do Pro/Am, even if it was inexpensive for them.

[wooh]

I don't dance pro-am, and I'm NOT complaining about costs.:) I'm all for pros making all the money they can make from their knowledge, skills and time. And don't think they should have to justify any of it. It's their fee, if someone's willing to pay it, they'll pay it, if not, they'll have to lower their fee or go find another job. (Just don't let my instructor hear that. I'd like for her to make all the money she can from her other students, and teach me out of the good of her heart.:p)

[emeralddancer]

I don't think syncopationator's post was directed at you or other amateurs who don't dance Pro/Am because they have not yet started. Rather, he was addressing people like Joe and Warren J. Dew - amateurs who don't dance Pro/Am because they dance Amateur/Amateur instead. :)

I respect that

[emeralddancer]

Absolutely ;)

And sorry for the uplaugh... I was only saying that people seem to be getting worked up about it, not that they shouldn't opine - I thought I made that clear in the second paragraph.

Asking questions is what this forum is all about - its a good thing. But I do find it comical that most of the ones that do complain about the costs of pro/am dancing don't actually compete pro/am (or have any intention to do so). Or maybe I'm way wrong... Perhaps if the cost would come down then they too would compete pro/am. Maybe I missed the point completely :???:

But my comment doesn't originate with this thread. Ever since I started dancing I've gotten negative feedback from non-dancers about the amount of mulla I spend on dancing... But perhaps more concerning is that I have also gotten the snobby comment or two from ams that don't do pro/am for the same reason. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I really enjoy dancing and pro/am dancing in particular so I'm a huge advocate for pro/am (or an Ambassador for male pro/ams as Larinda has appointed me :)).

And by the way, I dance Am/Am too (just have to figure out the small issue of finding a new partner... but I'm working on it)

It's all good. Gah ... I tell ya reading sure IS hard when you can not HEAR inflection of voice or tone and such ...Hey and I am female after all and prone to well ... you know. LOL ;D

[emeralddancer]

Eh the cost honestly does not bother me. Really, and I have not started in that realm yet. (of comp) Shoot I am paying $650 a month now just on lessons and plan to up that another $350..00 in a month or two. JUST FOR PRIVATES ... eeekkkk hubby is going to DIE. But hey I warned him. I really really did! LOL

[Warren J. Dew]

I don't think syncopationator's post was directed at you or other amateurs who don't dance Pro/Am because they have not yet started. Rather, he was addressing people like Joe and Warren J. Dew - amateurs who don't dance Pro/Am because they dance Amateur/Amateur instead. :)

I'm pretty sure it wasn't directed at me because I've been pretty solidly on the side of "the pros can charge what they want and the amateurs can decide if they want to pay".

Then again, I'm afraid you're mistaken about who has and has not not danced pro-am, as well.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I'm pretty sure it wasn't directed at me because I've been pretty solidly on the side of "the pros can charge what they want and the amateurs can decide if they want to pay".

Then again, I'm afraid you're mistaken about who has and has not not danced pro-am, as well.
Ah, I'm sorry, Warren. I shouldn't skim or make assumptions. :)

[Joe]

If an instructor is billing for 8 hours of time during a comp, then the 8 hours (I would think) would be dedicated to students, whether it be comp preparation, studio-based socializing after a day's competition, or social dancing. After the 8 hours, though, I would think the instructor is free to do as he pleases, with the students realizing before the competition that the instructor isn't going to be their 'best friend' for every single second of the competition.
THAT is something I can agree with.

Now, as far as whether or not one has danced Pro/Am being the deciding factor in questioning the fee structure(s), does it matter where the query comes from--if someone asks something that you may have not even considered? Just because YOU know all there is to know about the fee structure(s), doesn't mean that everyone does. If an answer to a query increases someone's level of education on the matter, is that bad?

[Angel HI]

To me the key factor is : is sufficient information provided to interested students to understand/predict which competitions are more affordable to compete at, at this studio:
-- how is travel accounted for (is it broken out, hidden, or flat fee for all competitions)
-- how are entries/mult-dances prices or is it an all you can eat for fixed price
-- what's the daily overhead and does it vary with number of students (I would expect this it include meals, lodging, and the whole issue of lost income)
-- are students allowed/encourage/forbidden from making their own travel/lodging/food arrangements? (with the understanding that frugality on the part of the student, in no way, places a similar restriction on the instructor)

This makes sense to me. What else could one want or deserve?

[contracheck]

No, I've been doing this for years and agree with your observation that the two groups that complain the most about costs are the people who didn't ask any questions in advance and found themselves paying $5000 to dance a few heats with a no-name teacher and didn't know that it didn't have to be that expensive,

Sound like the story of my life.

[Standarddancer]

oh dear! can't believe someone would just blow $5000 on some no-name teacher without asking the questions in advance:confused:. wouldn't hurt at least ask other students before get involved :rolleyes:...god, $5000 is a lot of money!!!

[contracheck]

wouldn't hurt at least ask other students before get involved :rolleyes:...god, $5000 is a lot of money!!!

My expereince shows that students are extremely reluctant to talk about dance fees. I wonder if other people find that this is true. If you consider airfares and hotels, you reach to $5,000 easily. You can't let your teacher fly in a Red Eye Express and stay at a Red Roof Inn. Provide your teacher the best luxury possible, you will have very good return.

[Joe]

You can't let your teacher fly in a Red Eye Express and stay at a Red Roof Inn.
Why not?

[contracheck]

Why not?
Because you get what you pay for. Before you hit the floor, let your teacher rest well, give professional massage, take to the best restaurant in town. You will be in Chris Johnson's photos.

[mamboqueen]

Because you get what you pay for. Before you hit the floor, let your teacher rest well, give professional massage, take to the best restaurant in town. You will be in Chris Johnson's photos.

Where are you buying your crack these days?? *lol* I can only assume you're being fascetious. One of the expectations I have is that my pro is going to do his best to keep costs at a reasonable level. I guess I've been lucky not to have prima donnas for teachers....

[Purr]

I don't think so. And, I don't think a pro is being a prima donna by expecting a decent hotel room, a good meal, and some time to rest before competing.

[mamboqueen]

I don't think so. And, I don't think a pro is being a prima donna by expecting a decent hotel room, a good meal, and some time to rest before competing.

I'm referring more to the sort who might expect first class and a suite. Yes, food and decent accommodations are certainly expected.

[contracheck]

Where are you buying your crack these days?? *lol* I can only assume you're being fascetious. One of the expectations I have is that my pro is going to do his best to keep costs at a reasonable level. I guess I've been lucky not to have prima donnas for teachers....

You can buy cracks but you don't have to take them. Is this correct? You don't want to see your teacher line up to get on a cheap flight, do you?

[mamboqueen]

You can buy cracks but you don't have to take them. Is this correct? You don't want to see your teacher line up to get on a cheap flight, do you?

There are no cheap flights! But none of the teachers I have had would seriously ask their students to pay for first class. They want it...they can use their miles.

[Warren J. Dew]

Ah, I'm sorry, Warren. I shouldn't skim or make assumptions. :)

No need to apologize - I wasn't offended. I just wanted to clarify.

I'm curious as to what led you to that assumption. It's not that you were so far wrong - while I have done pro-am competition, I've done a lot more amateur competition. What makes me seem like I haven't done (much) pro-am?

[LatinDancer006]

I'm referring more to the sort who might expect first class and a suite. Yes, food and decent accommodations are certainly expected.

One good thing about having a female pro (esp. if she is latin, I don't know about the standard ones) is that they don't eat that much. So just go to a place that serves good salads.:tongue:

[mamboqueen]

One good thing about having a female pro (esp. if she is latin, I don't know about the standard ones) is that they don't eat that much. So just go to a place that serves good salads.:tongue:

I may have to slap you when I meet you! I'm by far no pro, but I can eat more than a lot of men I know!

And if you need to see why I'm a bit sensitive to the "salad" stereotype, read here:

http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=595648&postcount=129

[contracheck]

There are no cheap flights! But none of the teachers I have had would seriously ask their students to pay for first class. They want it...they can use their miles.

I agree with you. There is no cheap flights and no cheap hotels. $5,000 evapoprates in no time. In any case, this is not a time to be penny wise and pound foolish. Just imagine that your teacher step out of a Limousine like a Hollywood Star and enter the hotel. What will that do the morale of other teachers?

[mamboqueen]

They'd probably do what I do and mutter "schmuck" under my breath ;)

[etp777]

Heh. My pro would probably jsut wonder why I spent money on that when it could have gone to more lessons, more coachings, etc.

[njdancegirl]

Because you get what you pay for. Before you hit the floor, let your teacher rest well, give professional massage, take to the best restaurant in town. You will be in Chris Johnson's photos.

Come on, CC. Believe my pro deserves to be treated fairly - I wouldn't make him stay in a hotel less than I would, fly in a lesser class, eat in a lesser restaurant, etc. But I would certainly not treat to all the extra extravagences that you are referring to (massages, etc)...and he would never expect it. I pay him his required fees, he does what he is paid to do and beyond that there are no expectations on either side.

[contracheck]

Come on, CC. Believe my pro deserves to be treated fairly - I wouldn't make him stay in a hotel less than I would, fly in a lesser class, eat in a lesser restaurant, etc. But I would certainly not treat to all the extra extravagences that you are referring to (massages, etc)...and he would never expect it. I pay him his required fees, he does what he is paid to do and beyond that there are no expectations on either side.

A series of posts from female members leads me to believe that there is an inherent difference between men and ladies.

[mamboqueen]

I think it's more of a money issue....

[and123]

I would think that a Pro would manage to get his/her act together regardless of the level of accommodations subsidized by the students. Dancing badly makes the Pro look bad too.

Reminds me of the time a Pro at my former studio missed some of his students' heats because he was busy drinking at the bar :rolleyes:.

[NielsenE]

I don't think its a gender thing.....

[contracheck]

I don't think its a gender thing.....

I think it is. I don't represent all men but I think that women are practical and men are full of hot air. I often don't have money to buy lunch. Another good example is a man like Donald Trump, who is full of hot air.

[mamboqueen]

I think it is. I don't represent all men but I think that women are practical and men are full of hot air. I often don't have money to buy lunch. Another good example is a man like Donald Trump, who is full of hot air.

I can assure you, when it comes to money, I'm hardly practical!

[njdancegirl]

I think it is. I don't represent all men but I think that women are practical and men are full of hot air. I often don't have money to buy lunch. Another good example is a man like Donald Trump, who is full of hot air.

Nah....know a few male pro/am competitors. They are just like the majority of us...no massages or 1st class flights coming from them either.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

No need to apologize - I wasn't offended. I just wanted to clarify.

I'm curious as to what led you to that assumption. It's not that you were so far wrong - while I have done pro-am competition, I've done a lot more amateur competition. What makes me seem like I haven't done (much) pro-am?
You seem very familiar with the collegiate system as well as other amateur/amateur competition. Also, I couldn't recall your having mentioned a pro with whom you dance - absence of proof = proof of absence. ;)

[Joe]

i Think It's More Of A Brains Issue....
Ftfy. ;)

[mamboqueen]

lmao, for once, I'll let you have your way on fixing my words!