Pro/Am competition costs out of hand [Archive]

Nik

08-29-2008, 01:38 AM

What do you all think about some of this exhorbitant fees pros are charging for a pro/am comp? $2,000, $4,000, $5,000 plus expenses are what some pros I know are charging and I know some even charge a lot more.

Not only do students pay those fees to get the best pro to compete with, they also take 15 lessons a week. Unless you can afford to do the same, how can anyone compete against that?

I'm seeing some students give up on pro/am comps for these reasons. Can anything be done to keep prices down? Should students create a union? If you consider they're making $10,000 a day at a comp, aren't these pros taking advantage of their students? How is all this going to affect pro/am competition in the future? Does it have a future? Should someone start a new dance organization to restrict and control fees at it's own sanctioned competitions ?

I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Do you know how much the top coaches are charging for lessons? Espin Salberg charged 500 euro in Moscow for a 45 minute lesson.

Its a great idea to make a new organization and set caps on prices but who is going to be in it?

Do you know how much these top pros paid in their dance career to learn everything they are now teaching their students? How much is a trip to blackpool just to dance a competition and go home? $4000, $6000? Would you like to stay for lessons as well since you are there? How much are you spending then, $10,000?

I am sure there are teachers that will charge less and give discounts but I wouldn't expect them to be ex-champions that are world famous accomplished dancers.

dancinjessi

08-29-2008, 01:46 AM

I would recommend that you peruse some of the pro-am discussions in the archives to get an idea of some of the ideas/issues that have been veted before....

I tried to do a search, but didn't come up with anything. Can you tell me how I can find those posts?

etp777

08-29-2008, 01:51 AM

I just paid $200 for 45 minute coaching with a former undefeeated (if memory serves, only doubt is on undefeated part) world 10 dance champion. I know studio ate partof cost this time as this is first time we've had him in, and they want to make sure people get to see values of coachings with him, but certainly makes me iffy on prs who chrage a ton. Now don't get me wrong, I can fully see their time being worth that much, but doesn't mean it's worth that to ME. My talent isn't worth what a top pro like elena Grinenko (just off top of my head as a top rhythm pro, which I compete in) might charge for a comp. for a coaching, sure, but for comp, no. For a rreuglar comp, I'll stick with my pro, who might not be up to elena's level,but is WAY beyond mine.

But that's something that each am will have to decide for themselves. I know am's who candump 100k/yr on pro/am without an issue. That doesn't quite fit in my budget. :) and by quite, I mean80-90k. :) so for me, that's not possible, but may be reasonable foor them.

latingal

08-29-2008, 01:54 AM

You can try a search on:

pro/am fees

dancinjessi

08-29-2008, 02:04 AM

I searched again and came up with some posts, so I'll peck around and see what people are saying.

Found this that was interesting. This person quit for the same reasons I mentioned in my original post. dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=12010&highlight=pro%2Fam+costs+competition

How many more are doing the same?

A solution is not easy when it comes to the competitions themselves. How can you reorganize them? I've thought and thought and can't come up with a viable alternative. If anyone is feeling disillusioned, all anyone can really do is change the way they look at competition and perhaps, if need be, take the competition out of competition and just dance for the sheer joy of it.

fascination

08-29-2008, 03:24 AM

I empathize...it is true that pro/am often requires alot of cash...so does graduate school...and if my income is limited I am going to have to choose a route that I can afford or go into debt...neither is an entitlement and I have a choice about how I balance cost vs calaibre of the product...neither the graduate school nor the pro forces me to make the huge financial sacrifice...for me it is a matter of how badly I want it...no it isn't fairr in terms of equal access...neither is the rest of life...it is up to the person to navigate life's inequities....having been on both sides of these issues, very affordable pro and very high ticket pro, I find that I went a very long way with the first and I find that the second, while I may be forced to limit how much I dance, is worth every hard earned penny...am sorry for your frustration ...truly...but, as per the other 8 jilllion threads, there are lots of ways to make it work if you truly want it...you just have to be more creative and not focus on your limitations...and as someone who danced with a low profile pro against the big dogs for 3 years, I understand every bit of pain and heartache that is associated with that.... and as someone who is now paying for top notch, i also feel your pain...but both choices were mine...and both were worth it and both made me a better dancer

Sunshines Partner

08-29-2008, 07:42 AM

What do you all think about some of this exhorbitant fees pros are charging for a pro/am comp? $2,000, $4,000, $5,000 plus expenses are what some pros I know are charging and I know some even charge a lot more.

You have to give a little more information. Is a Comp package included in this price. Does this include entry fees (If so for how many entries). To throw out prices without details does not allow for a good discussion.

That being said there is no question the Pro/Am Comps are very expensive.

NoDayButToday

08-29-2008, 07:43 AM

Do you know how much the top coaches are charging for lessons? Espin Salberg charged 500 euro in Moscow for a 45 minute lesson.

Its a great idea to make a new organization and set caps on prices but who is going to be in it?

Do you know how much these top pros paid in their dance career to learn everything they are now teaching their students? How much is a trip to blackpool just to dance a competition and go home? $4000, $6000? Would you like to stay for lessons as well since you are there? How much are you spending then, $10,000?

I am sure there are teachers that will charge less and give discounts but I wouldn't expect them to be ex-champions that are world famous accomplished dancers.

I understand your perspective. It puts a new light to my own perspective. However, as a student who can't fork up money that large, it's a bit of a hardship. Those competitors who pay for instructions from someone like Salberg can obviously afford it, especially if you're splitting the fee between you and your partner. I would HOPE that teachers, even world champs, would look out for the best interest of their students and waive the fee slightly. I'm not saying that they don't deserve the money by any means but alittle empathy from your pro wouldn't hurt.

ChaChaMama

08-29-2008, 08:07 AM

What do you all think about some of this exhorbitant fees pros are charging for a pro/am comp? $2,000, $4,000, $5,000 plus expenses are what some pros I know are charging and I know some even charge a lot more.

Not only do students pay those fees to get the best pro to compete with, they also take 15 lessons a week. Unless you can afford to do the same, how can anyone compete against that?

Shop around. Plenty of pros DON'T charge $2000, $4000, or $5000.

I would NOT necessarily assume that the pros charging less than $2000 will provide you with a less high quality dance education or competition experience. They may be rising stars rather than established champions.

If you are looking to keep costs down, I would also steer away from buying a package including hotel and meals. You can often get the hotel and meals for yourself for a much better price. Price it out.

You may also have to limit the number of events you enter. Sure, some people enter 100 events and take tons of lessons a week. Plenty of people enter 5-20 events and take 1-2 lessons a week.

Finally, if you really want to save money, try to find an amateur partnership. Amateur comps like the Manhattan Amateur Classic are terrific and the entry fees extremely affordable. In 2008, it was $65/person (which means $130/couple) for up to six events...and many of these are multi-dance events! That includes your entry to the ballroom. Want to attend the Friday and Saturday night session and see the championship level competitors? That's $35/person--extremely reasonable.

Good luck.

CCM

P.S. Grad school often is free, but the difference is that the school or the state may have a vested interest in training you.

samina

08-29-2008, 09:18 AM

nik and fasc spoke well on the subject.

i feel for ya, jessi, i do... am single mum, have no cash cow, i train, i compete...and much of the time that i have been taking lessons i have had to scrape funds out of grocery money & such, and many times go without and find other ways to progress.

just because life isn't "fair" in that everyone has differing financial situations & opportunities doesn't mean that regulation is the answer. life *is* fair in that we all have an innate creative ability to use our intentions and our resourcefulness and our desires and our joy to create what is truly what we are here to experience and express. look at it from that perspective and make it happen.

there are many good pros that don't charge in the range you quoted. there are good competitors who don't take 15 lessons a week. and there is much, much, much you can do on your own to progress and to be competitive, even without much money & even without much time.

my recommend: look within and see how much resourcefulness and ingenuity you have to persevere. that's what makes a true champion. money will never, ever buy that.

DanceMentor

08-29-2008, 09:23 AM

my recommend: look within and see how much resourcefulness and ingenuity you have to persevere. that's what makes a true champion. money will never, ever buy that.

Well stated, and inspirational. :)

Going straight to a current champion and paying top dollar might be on way to a good placement, but finding someone that will take an interest in you, and grow with you over time is where the resourcefulness and ingenuity come in. And if the placements areen't there initially, that is where the perseverance comes in.

mamboqueen

08-29-2008, 09:24 AM

my recommend: look within and see how much resourcefulness and ingenuity you have to persevere. that's what makes a true champion. money will never, ever buy that.

Excellent advice, Sam. I think I'm going to tape that to my wall at work. It is easy to get discouraged over the disparity in finances, but sometimes sheer determination and will can get you past it.

samina

08-29-2008, 09:31 AM

Excellent advice, Sam. I think I'm going to tape that to my wall at work. It is easy to get discouraged over the disparity in finances, but sometimes sheer determination and will can get you past it.

i know... it is challenging. i have to consciously take my own advice nearly every day.:cool:

muyv

08-29-2008, 09:47 AM

I agree with most the prevous post. Life is a matter of choices and scarifices.

But I think the original post has slightly different angle in his suggestions. In addition to talking about individual choices, he also talked about how as a community, we can foster a healthier growth for the pro/am enviroment. I think that is a very valid point.

I am not sure that we can put regulations on prices, but we can at least help to establish a free flow of information. And therefore making it harder for someone to charge unreasonably high prices.

In some sense, I think this forum is doing so, by having everybody sharing of their story and informations.

Maybe a pro/am Student organization/website, that collect from the students and publish such informaiton for the statistics on the lesson fees and competitions fees for that they paid. There are certainly plenty of ways to to design the form, so that privacy is protected. I think it might naturally draw a crowd of interested personnel, and therefore can be a good place for ads. This way it can be funded by the ads, and can be self sustainable.

How do you think of this suggestion?

Easy

08-29-2008, 10:42 AM

Shop around. Shop around. Shop around.

Some pros do charge an exorbitant amount, but I'd say most charge a fair price. It's their decision and their right to charge what they want for their services. It's your decision and your right whether or not you want to do business with them.

Independent pros who only have to rent space, thereby not having a huge overhead, will probably be your best bet on price. The better they are, the higher the price will be most likely.

I typically will charge all of the expenses to the student plus 8 hours per day....the cost of lessons that I'm not teaching. If I can't make that per day, then I have no business attending a competition, for my studio would close shortly thereafter.

danceronice

08-29-2008, 11:13 AM

Maybe a pro/am Student organization/website, that collect from the students and publish such informaiton for the statistics on the lesson fees and competitions fees for that they paid. There are certainly plenty of ways to to design the form, so that privacy is protected. I think it might naturally draw a crowd of interested personnel, and therefore can be a good place for ads. This way it can be funded by the ads, and can be self sustainable.

How do you think of this suggestion?

I don't know that some studios would want their prices advertised like that. You could protect the STUDENTS' privacy, yes, but that information would be useless without identifying the studios or pros in question. It wouldn't be hard to figure out who was talking, either, even if the students were anonymous--it's a small world.

I would love to not pay thousands of dollars for lessons. But I'm getting off relatively cheap and I know it, and I would rather go into debt than quit. I take help wherever I can get it and I work as much as possible to pay for it. In the grand scheme of things, it's not fair that some people can spend a lot more than I can on lessons. However, it's like that in every sport. If you want to compete, it's going to cost money. For those who can just dance for fun or whatever, good for them, for those of us who want to compete, we have to accept we're going to have to pay, like we would for any other activity. Such is life.

Sunshines Partner

08-29-2008, 11:31 AM

If Pro/Am Costs are getting out of control, what would you consider reasonable.
I’m not looking for what you would like to pay since we would all like to pay as little as possible.

chica latina

08-29-2008, 11:41 AM

I am not sure that we can put regulations on prices, but we can at least help to establish a free flow of information. And therefore making it harder for someone to charge unreasonably high prices.

Maybe a pro/am Student organization/website, that collect from the students and publish such informaiton for the statistics on the lesson fees and competitions fees for that they paid. There are certainly plenty of ways to to design the form, so that privacy is protected. I think it might naturally draw a crowd of interested personnel, and therefore can be a good place for ads. This way it can be funded by the ads, and can be self sustainable.

How do you think of this suggestion?

THis would be very valuable for people that just get a price quoted and dont understand if that is reasonable, highly priced or a deal. Also it could help independent teachers to compare themselves. The more information you have the wiser decisions you could make...

ChaChaMama

08-29-2008, 12:00 PM

I don't know that some studios would want their prices advertised like that. You could protect the STUDENTS' privacy, yes, but that information would be useless without identifying the studios or pros in question. It wouldn't be hard to figure out who was talking, either, even if the students were anonymous--it's a small world.

I definitely see your point, DOI, but just to play devil's advocate for the moment:

-What does it imply if a studio is unwilling to stand publicly by their pricing information? If the price tag is expensive, but in the ballpark of what all studios charge for pro-am competition, why not put the information out there?
[The college where I teach is fairly expensive. Tuition alone is $36,930/yr, with another $2300 for room in a traditional residence hall (more if you want to live in the lovely apartments) and $2830 for a fairly typical 14-meal/week plan. All this is published information, and I don't think it is detrimental to the school to have the information out there. It is in line with what our competitors charge.]

-Is "what we charge to do business" really a private matter? Most private schools, tutoring services, ballet schools, spas, hair salons, personal chefs (to name a few kinds of educators and personal service providers, two broad categories of which pro-am might be said to be a part) publicly disclose their prices.

-Would a database of information be useless without the identifying names of studios and pros? Having a ballpark idea of expenses might still help students who are considering pro-am for the first time and have no idea what it might cost, or who have been quoted a price and wonder if they are being treated fairly. Imagine if you went to buy a home and you had never heard of the concept of "closing costs" and weren't sure whether these were legitimate. There are tons of home buying guides out there; are there guides to pro-am?

Again, I'm neither necessarily for or against the publishing of such information, but just making the case that more information is not necessarily a bad thing for consumers or for service providers.

waltzguy

08-29-2008, 12:20 PM

Finally, if you really want to save money, try to find an amateur partnership.

Boy do I agree with this wholeheartedly. Am partnerships also offer the possibility of dancing for fun/social, which pros don't offer. Typically, pros are not allowed to partner with their students outside of studio-sanctuaned events.

SDsalsaguy

08-29-2008, 12:44 PM

Typically, pros are not allowed to partner with their students outside of studio-sanctuaned events.
Mostly true of franchise and franchise-modeled studios, not true of many (most?) other studios.

2totango

08-29-2008, 12:57 PM

Can someone please direct me to the thread that used to be linked and now is not on the first page? I would very much like to read it and doing a search has found me several (not to mention a plethora of) threads....but I don't know which I am looking for! Thanks....

waltzguy

08-29-2008, 01:03 PM

Mostly true of franchise and franchise-modeled studios, not true of many (most?) other studios.

Ahh, right. Forgot about the independent dance studios.

LatinDancer006

08-29-2008, 01:30 PM

2totango

08-29-2008, 01:32 PM

Found the thread I was looking for, so just disregard my last post.

danceronice

08-29-2008, 01:59 PM

Boy do I agree with this wholeheartedly. Am partnerships also offer the possibility of dancing for fun/social, which pros don't offer. Typically, pros are not allowed to partner with their students outside of studio-sanctuaned events.

If you're a girl? MUCH easier said than done, especially if you're interested in competing. I could find a social partner tomorrow, but I'm not getting any younger (even though a coach/judge told me straight up yesterday I pass as much younger than I really am) and don't have time to tool around socials with a social-only partner in the hopes he'll change his mind, and finding a suitable partner for competition (good height/build match, lives in the right area, wants to dance the same styles, no huge disparity in ability ie too much more advanced or behind me, etc) isn't a walk in the part for follows.

In any case I've found that most men who come to socials are 1) older enough than me that it wouldn't work and 2) just interested in (surprise) social dancing. As I only social dance at my own studio because it's close, cheap, familiar, and chances are there'll be leads who know the style and routines, socials are not a big help for me.

Laura

08-29-2008, 02:04 PM

What do you all think about some of this exhorbitant fees pros are charging for a pro/am comp? $2,000, $4,000, $5,000 plus expenses are what some pros I know are charging and I know some even charge a lot more.
It is a lot of money, but the best pros charge what they will and they've obviously found people who will pay. If you look at Pro/Am, especially at the highest levels, as an elite-level sport rather than a hobby activity, it makes more sense. I'm sure the top trainers and coaches in other sports get paid a lot too.

Not only do students pay those fees to get the best pro to compete with, they also take 15 lessons a week. Unless you can afford to do the same, how can anyone compete against that?
This topic comes up a lot. It is daunting. However, training "smart" can go a good way toward alleviating the "lesson gap."

I'm seeing some students give up on pro/am comps for these reasons.
The high cost of training causes a lot of people to give up their various sports for that reason...if you're into horse showing, a "decent" horse can cost $50,000 to $100,000. And that is just a "decent" one. A "good" one will cost a lot more. I'm sure a lot of people give up horse showing at some point because they simply cannot afford a good enough horse. And then if you're into golfing...greens fees and memberships at some courses are very very high, so if you want to get experience at the best facilities it becomes out of reach.

Can anything be done to keep prices down?
I have lots of tips to help Pro/Am students save money, but they don't include forcing people to charge less than they think they are worth or than the market will bear.

Should students create a union?
If it's to enact pricing controls, I doubt you'll get anywhere with it.

If you consider they're making $10,000 a day at a comp, aren't these pros taking advantage of their students?
Not if the students understand what they are getting into and agree to pay the fees. Saying an "expensive" pro is taking advantage of the students is like saying that an "expensive" car maker like Lotus or Ferrari is taking advantage of car buyers.

How is all this going to affect pro/am competition in the future? Does it have a future?
Well, to tell you the truth, you questions are not new. I've been doing Pro/Am for 10 years now and have been hearing questions/complaints like yours since the beginning, and Pro/Am isn't dead yet.

Should someone start a new dance organization to restrict and control fees at it's own sanctioned competitions ?
Well, that "someone" could be you -- I hear complaints and talk every so often but the complainers never actually do anything about it. Also, if such an organization was to be started, I don't know that the NDCA would be in favor of it, and so they might restrict all teacher and Judges from participating in the new organization's events.

I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Some tips for keeping the price of Pro/Am down:
1. Find a teacher whose rate structure you are okay with. Not all teachers charge the large amounts you mention here.
2. Pick one style and stay with it. That will save you money on lessons, costumes, entry fees, and even hotel nights at competitions.
3. Get the most out of your lessons by taping them and reviewing them.
4. Keep a notebook and write notes after your lessons so you can capture what you've learned while it's still fresh.
5. Practice on your own as much as you can, no matter what style you are doing. Even Standard dancers can practice on your own.
6. Do cross-training that supports your dancing from both an aerobic conditioning and from a body awareness standpoint.
7. Learn how to make your own costumes, you can save thousands of dollars that way.
8. Get friendly with your pro's other students so you can share accommodations and therefore save expenses at competitions.
9. Bring your own breakfast food to comps, like instant oatmeal packets and fruit. Little things like this can add up, especially since breakfast seems to be the most overpriced hotel meal of the day.
10. Keep things in perspective and don't let envy and jealousy about what others do eat at you.

emeralddancer

08-29-2008, 02:05 PM

I am neither for or against on this issue ... but I really believe and have stated to one of the owners at my studio, when she expressed that she had to "take" anything that came her way ... (on judging mind you) My answer was ... You DON'T have to take just anything. Find out al the information first and judge accordingly. What is your time worth.

So many pros ... I am sure there are "standard" rates, however, they are pros usually for a reason. They too have put in time, effort, money, sweat equity, etc ... to get to where they are. So what is their time "worth" is realivant to them. And if WE the AMs decided to pay those prices, it is our choice because WE feel they are worth learning from.

BTW ... Samina, loved what you said and printed it out and it IS at my desk to be a reminder! Thank You for that!

Laura

08-29-2008, 02:08 PM

I would HOPE that teachers, even world champs, would look out for the best interest of their students and waive the fee slightly. I'm not saying that they don't deserve the money by any means but alittle empathy from your pro wouldn't hurt.
And how do you know that some don't? Obviously they can't do it for everyone, but I know teachers who charge kids substantially less, and of another who has a 'sliding scale' for competition fees (the more you dance, the less you pay per dance), and so on.

chica latina

08-29-2008, 02:10 PM

Not if the students understand what they are getting into and agree to pay the fees. Saying an "expensive" pro is taking advantage of the students is like saying that an "expensive" car maker like Lotus or Ferrari is taking advantage of car buyers.
.

The only thing I dont agree with is that anybody could find the price for Ferrari's or other $$ cars and compare. Info is available everywhere. Is not the same case with pro/Am fees.

samina

08-29-2008, 02:14 PM

....

Some tips for keeping the price of Pro/Am down:
1. Find a teacher whose rate structure you are okay with. Not all teachers charge the large amounts you mention here.
2. Pick one style and stay with it. That will save you money on lessons, costumes, entry fees, and even hotel nights at competitions.
3. Get the most out of your lessons by taping them and reviewing them.
4. Keep a notebook and write notes after your lessons so you can capture what you've learned while it's still fresh.
5. Practice on your own as much as you can, no matter what style you are doing. Even Standard dancers can practice on your own.
6. Do cross-training that supports your dancing from both an aerobic conditioning and from a body awareness standpoint.
7. Learn how to make your own costumes, you can save thousands of dollars that way.
8. Get friendly with your pro's other students so you can share accommodations and therefore save expenses at competitions.
9. Bring your own breakfast food to comps, like instant oatmeal packets and fruit. Little things like this can add up, especially since breakfast seems to be the most overpriced hotel meal of the day.
10. Keep things in perspective and don't let envy and jealousy about what others do eat at you.

once again, laura, you prove to be such a valuable resource of information & suggestions related to dancesport. really... you always deliver.

samina

08-29-2008, 02:15 PM

BTW ... Samina, loved what you said and printed it out and it IS at my desk to be a reminder! Thank You for that!

that's so nice to hear, em...thanks. i'm glad it spoke to you. :)

Laura

08-29-2008, 02:21 PM

The only thing I dont agree with is that anybody could find the price for Ferrari's or other $$ cars and compare. Info is available everywhere. Is not the same case with pro/Am fees.
I'm confused by your statement. I've been doing Pro/Am for 10 years at NDCA competitions, and get the entry fee prices off the competition web sites. I can't even think of a competition that doesn't have a web site these days. In these 10 years I've done Pro/Am with two different independent teachers. In each case the teacher would charge me dance fees according to a structure that I knew about in advance, and for my share of their traveling expenses. One teacher used to give me a written invoice with the prices broken down, the other would just tell me orally. So while some teachers and studios do not reveal what the fees are, plenty of others do.

If you're in a situation where they won't give you the information you want and need, then shop around and see if you can find something more to your liking elsewhere. When you find a teacher you like and think you want to stay with them to compete, ask them what their rates are before you commit, and then decide if its worth it to you. If they won't tell you their rates, or if they can't tell your their rates, then keep shopping.

hustleNflow

08-29-2008, 02:31 PM

This thread has been interesting to watch...I agree with the points on both sides. I realize that this is partially how the pros make their living; however, I also realize that the costs to the amateur can be financially crippling. Some thoughts on what has been said...

-Pro/Am vs. Am: I would LOVE to find an amateur partner that shares my enthusiasm for rhythm and is physically and mentally compatible to compete with. So far, no such luck...there either aren't enough male ams to go around, or they aren't as enthused as I am (which translates into them not wanting to practice as often, or not wanting to shell out as much $$ for lessons and trips to comps). My pro is always there, though...he is always on board with practicing in competing - which is what I pay him to do. Just wish it didn't cost so darn much :(

-Forming some sort of sanctions on pro/am costs: While this seems like a good idea on paper, I doubt any major dance organizations would get behind it. Although anymore many are getting behind the idea of dancing being more welcoming to newcomers (i.e. the rules on costuming at the syllabus level changing), so who knows, they may see regulating the costs of pro/am as an opportunity to attract more to the sport.

-Talking to your pro/studio owner about costs of competing: any professional worth their salt is into teaching dance more for the joy of it than the money. If they're unwilling to explain to you where all of your hard-earned money is going, odds are they've got something to hide, and aren't necessarily looking out for your best interests as a dancer. Find a pro who loves what they do (even if they aren't the most decorated or accomplished dancer) and isn't afraid to show you a breakdown of their costs.

And on a final note about paying for lessons...though this may seem a bit shady to some, there are ways other than money to help pay for lessons (and NO, I'M NOT REFERRING TO ANYTHING DIRTY! :rolleyes:). My pro is a bit of a metro, and likes getting his hair highlighted regularly. He ended up talking his stylist into letting him pay her in dance lessons! It's a win-win situation - he gets his hair done gratis, while she learns to ballroom dance (which she had always wanted to do, anyway). They've negotiated a system that works for both of them, with no $$ involved. How could one translate this to their own benefit? Maybe you're a hairstylist too, or a makeup artist, or a manicurist, or work at a gym or tanning salon - all expenses that most pros have. It couldn't hurt to suggest an exchange - the worst they can do is say no ;) Heck, take it a step further...maybe you are a crackerjack landscaper, or work in a body shop, or watch kids, or sew or cook or who knows what else - pros are people too, that need oil changes and babysitters and lawn mowers :cool:

chica latina

08-29-2008, 02:37 PM

Laura,

Some competitions where I live will not give prices to Am....
I'm a pro and I am open with my students about the charges........

but I've seen in the past many students that dont shop around because they dont realize that what they are being charge is not average and by people with no training or good dance skills..

GJB

08-29-2008, 02:53 PM

As long as people keep paying the high prices for lessons, coachings, pro/am comps. ... they will keep raising. That's supply and demand.

I can not see paying $200-$500 for a this champion or a that champion. It's not about the coach's titles or their own comp results. I think you should look at the caliber of dancing of a prospective teacher/coach's STUDENT's dancing and base it on that until you have tried a lesson with her/him. If you don't learn your money's worth don't go back! Continuing to go back to people that just aren't worth the big bucks is definitely not helping our cause.

Oh, and by the way, my teacher is the current World Ten Dance champion. And, I am considering the issue of cost now myself ... I have to hurry up and learn a little more because my salary is definitely not keeping up with the skyrocketing costs.

Edit: Since I just gave my teacher's identity, I want to make sure I don't mislead anyone or cast a negative impression - I'm not paying $200 a lesson.

tanya_the_dancer

08-29-2008, 03:53 PM

What do you all think about some of this exhorbitant fees pros are charging for a pro/am comp? $2,000, $4,000, $5,000 plus expenses are what some pros I know are charging and I know some even charge a lot more.

Not only do students pay those fees to get the best pro to compete with, they also take 15 lessons a week. Unless you can afford to do the same, how can anyone compete against that?

I'm seeing some students give up on pro/am comps for these reasons. Can anything be done to keep prices down? Should students create a union? If you consider they're making $10,000 a day at a comp, aren't these pros taking advantage of their students? How is all this going to affect pro/am competition in the future? Does it have a future? Should someone start a new dance organization to restrict and control fees at it's own sanctioned competitions ?

I'd like to hear your thoughts.

There will always be someone who can outspend you. It's true in any area of our lives, not just dancing. You just have to live with that. Shop around and find someone you can work with and can afford. And of course, pro-am has a future, as long as the gender gap in dancing is as big as it is.

Speaking of a union for students, personally, I am very much against yet another organization, or union, and I don't see how it will be of any use to me as an am half of a pro-am team. But then people in my profession (software development) are mostly anti-union, period.

Larinda McRaven

08-29-2008, 04:33 PM

Should someone start a new dance organization to restrict and control fees at it's own sanctioned competitions ?

Andrew Smart

Nik

08-29-2008, 04:34 PM

I don't think anyone will hide their prices. If someone asks me what I charge I'm not going to hide anything, and I'm sure it is the same with most teachers that do pro-am.

I would consider myself to be good friends with my coaches but everytime I come to take lessons, I expect to pay full price for all the lessons I receive. If the coach wants to discount anything or give extra time that is up to them. I'm never going to expect anyone to charge less because I value their information, and also wouldn't like them to teach me less or not work as hard.

Also not everyone charges a flat fee for comps, and if you don't dance that much then it not cost you all that much at all for a comp. Just pick the events you want to enter and don't do too much.

reb

08-29-2008, 04:48 PM

Also not everyone charges a flat fee for comps, and if you don't dance that much then it not cost you all that much at all for a comp. Just pick the events you want to enter and don't do too much.

Well said Nik.

Doing a minimal number of entries at a comp BEFORE pro fees can cost $1k, so beware the pro not making any money on these expenses - an example of flying to a comp for a scholarship event plus a minimal number of required single dances:

Airfare - $400
Hotel - $200
Airport parking, taxi, gas, and misc travel expenses - $75
Scholarship entry fee - $100
Single dance entry fees - $150
Ballroom entry fee, book, snacks, shoelaces, etc. - $75

Not including food, drinks, touring, and anything else identified with fun or living, not more than one style, staying more than one night, . . . .

This part is not really much different than most travel sports - and even Amateur competitions which are not local have some of these types of basic expenses, although a little less on the entry fees.

barrefly

08-29-2008, 05:32 PM

This thread is very depressing. I have been doing a ton of youtube research lately. It seems to me that a lot of these "pros" aren't that pro.
In the salsa world, because of certain elements i.e. acro., fast turns which can give definitive measure as to what a pro is....there tends to be a bit more humility among the pros. It seems there is a great deal more "ego" in ballroom and little difference among the pros, as well as skills that make such pros stand out (please...this is just my opinion) I would never pay anywhere near the amounts stated to have a ballroom pro. dance with my daughter. I would also never pay more the $100 hr. for privates....and still, they would have to be a world class dancer/instructor. Looks like I'm going to have a tough time getting my daughter into ballroom.

reb

08-29-2008, 05:43 PM

Before you get depressed, what is your goal?

If you want your daughter to learn how to dance - that's easy and can be cheap / affordable.

If you want to give your daughter the opportunity to become one of the world's best - you're not going to go the route of pro/am anyway, but youl'l have her learn from a pro (research required) and seek an Amateur partner(s).

But to compare something like salsa to competitive ballroom is like comparing learning how to play basketball competitively with learning to figure skate competitively (I hope that's a good analogy - I played basketball but only heard from parents of young skaters of how expensive that was).

One has strict styling, there other is more street.

Laura

08-29-2008, 05:44 PM

If you can find her a youth program then that is a huge stepping stone and is really the best way for her to get started. It's also a lot less expensive than other options. Also, you might want to contact people on this board who live in your area who know what is what and who is who.

By the way, I doubt you'd be paying $100 for your daughter's lessons. The pros at the studio where I take lessons (a studio with a lot of very good professionals at it, including several national finalists, national professional title holders, and a couple of people who have been on Dancing with the Stars a few times) charge the kids less than the adults -- and the adults are paying much less than $100.

So say where you're located and put out a call for people to offer suggestions as to where to go and who to see.

In my city a couple of studios have programs that are a combination of Youth group classes and private lessons. The kids learn the basics in the group classes, plus get to know each other and get a chance to see who is who so they can partner up. The group classes are augmented with private lessons, either solo with just a teacher or as a couple with a partner.

One piece of advice, and don't take this the wrong way: you and your daughter might have to "get over" her previous success in Salsa. No one in competitive ballroom is really going to care that she's a Salsa star. What they will care about is what she shows them: how attentive she is in the studio, how she gets along with other people, how quickly she incorporates and retains what she's taught, how willing she is to go back to the absolute basics and work with those ideas and steps, how much she practices even though she doesn't yet have a regular partner, how well she dances with other students and with her teacher, what kind of personality she shows on the floor. All the good habits and talent that made her great in Salsa will serve her well in ballroom, but she has to show them, not just rely on her past reputation.

barrefly

08-29-2008, 06:53 PM

reb, Laura, ..thankyou so much for your reply. I have been very depressed for a number of reasons. A lot of it has to do with my young 14 yr. old daughter being taken advantage in salsa. I am honored that she would have such skills to be taken advantage of....but it has really been wearing me down. She is about as good as she can get in salsa....short of pushing her into a more mature styling or partnering with a pro. adult. (..very tempting).

If occured to me what the pro./ams should do. Instead of paying these pros exorbanate fees.....just jackthe entrance fees (paid by the ams) to several grand, with the prizes being in the 10ks for 1st, 5ks for 2nd and 2ks for 3rd. That would motivate the pros to take on whom the think are the best ams.....and perhaps even the pros would be paying the ams (via free training) at times....if they where exceptional...like my daughter...just to win those big prizes. The lousy pros that don't win...don't get jack...and the pros that put in a lot of time and energy with the ams...would get the prizes.
Of course...the not so talented ams would have a hard time finding a pro to dance with.....but shouldn't that be the way it is anyway?

....I'm feeling better already...thanks everyone.

P.S....I do know there is a big difference btwn ballroom and salsa. My daughter has studied some ballroom (Buddy Schwimmer) and has been to her share of ballroom comps. She has very beautiful ballroom lines....esp. latin. She picks up clean (ballroom) tech. with relative ease and speed. (Lots of ballet training). My wife says that she will be taking Missy back to Buddy's next week...maybe he will have a partner for her this time.
Hope everyone (in the states) has a nice 3 day.

tanya_the_dancer

08-29-2008, 08:17 PM

dancinjessi

08-29-2008, 10:32 PM

You have to give a little more information. Is a Comp package included in this price. Does this include entry fees (If so for how many entries). To throw out prices without details does not allow for a good discussion.

Those are teacher flat fees and do not include organizer fees or travel expenses.

Nik

08-29-2008, 10:49 PM

If occured to me what the pro./ams should do. Instead of paying these pros exorbanate fees.....just jackthe entrance fees (paid by the ams) to several grand, with the prizes being in the 10ks for 1st, 5ks for 2nd and 2ks for 3rd. That would motivate the pros to take on whom the think are the best ams.....and perhaps even the pros would be paying the ams (via free training) at times....if they where exceptional...like my daughter...just to win those big prizes. The lousy pros that don't win...don't get jack...and the pros that put in a lot of time and energy with the ams...would get the prizes.
Of course...the not so talented ams would have a hard time finding a pro to dance with.....but shouldn't that be the way it is anyway?

Not to be rude or anything but this sounds kinda selfish and not at all the direction this discussion is aimed at. So now instead of paying your teacher money, you are paying the competion a couple grand to enter one event and then if you don't win, you just threw away a few grand in entry fees, your teacher doesn't get jack, and we're back at square one for the student.

Personally I think the system works and should stay exactly how it is. People that do a lot of pro-am know what they are doing and know how much it costs. The teachers, if they are still competing, have money to better themselves, and then come back and give this info to their students. Its a circle and is constantly progressing forward.

NoDayButToday

08-29-2008, 11:33 PM

Pros pay ams via free training? No way! I definately don't mind giving pros the money for lessons. I think it's all the expenses (travel, food, hotel, etc...) that makes my head spin!

katandmouse

08-30-2008, 01:42 AM

As long as people keep paying the high prices for lessons, coachings, pro/am comps. ... they will keep raising. That's supply and demand.

And there in is the crux of the matter. Somewhere down the line, as I heard it, some woman bribed her champion teacher with $100,000 to do a comp with her. He obliged. The word got out, and the rest is history.

As long as some of us keep paying, they will keep charging. And why not? They are not obliged to have pity on the poor. (Those of us who have money to take any amount of lessons at all are not poor anyway, and they know it.) They are trying to make a living, and somewhere down the line, they were smart in choosing an occupation that can net them $20,000 a day. Smart choice as I see it.

Others made other smart choices and now they can afford to hire them. Those who weren't so lucky or so smart have other options though. Read Laura's suggestions in this thread. They are GREAT!

As for the future of pro/am, I hear Jessi's concern. I've only been doing this a very few years, and in those few years, I've seen changes. I've seen, not just students, but several teachers give up on pro/am. I asked one of my former teachers why. He said for the same reason students give up. They can't compete either, and their students can't win. He said if they continue to lose, it's a bad reflection on them, so they stay away.

If that's true and I were a comp organizer, I'd be worried. Competitions survive on numbers. Can they survive on the only one or two students who can afford to accompany those expensive teachers?

And if they can't, what happens to supply and demand then? The demand will certainly go down, but let's not let it get to that point.

I propose we balance out the supply and demand by importing a bunch of great Italian and east European teachers over to the states to increase the supply. (Just make sure some short ones make it to the west coast.)

And if someone can find an Italian who dances like Luca and is about 5'9" or 5'10", tell him I have a room for him stay in, and it comes with 3 meals a day, hot drawn bath, daily foot and back massage, short drive to the beach, BMW, gym membership, free cable and internet, and one really devoted, passionate student who will gladly fill up 15 hours of his week in exchange for all the above. :-)

Nik

08-30-2008, 02:49 AM

And if someone can find an Italian who dances like Luca and is about 5'9" or 5'10", tell him I have a room for him stay in, and it comes with 3 meals a day, hot drawn bath, daily foot and back massage, short drive to the beach, BMW, gym membership, free cable and internet, and one really devoted, passionate student who will gladly fill up 15 hours of his week in exchange for all the above. :-)

hahaha, there are a lot of top notch Italian amateurs here at Embassy, I'm sure one of them won't mind to turn pro and take up on your offer.

DancingJools

08-30-2008, 04:27 AM

Well, to go back to the OP suggestions, some are worth serious thought, and some may be impractical. True, one can do some research and find out some stuff about what it costs to compete. However, the system really is rigged against the student, until the student has already had a few bad experiences (and/or spent an amount they needn't have). I think it is fair to say that very, very few students lucked out by finding good teachers at a reasonable cost early on.
And one way of evening out the balance would be, yes, finding a mechanism to publicize as many existing rates as possible, the good, the bad, and the ugly. And with names. If dancer x charges a flat $5,000 plus expenses to dance with a student, why shouldn't that be a well-known fact? If studio x requires that all students be on package and prices its packages at y amount, why should that information remain private? Yes, the alert student may push to find this information, but this set-up reminds me of car pricing before Consumer Digest or whatever entity started putting together price guides for whatever components exist in a car, the factory pricing for such, and so on. Having the info available now doesn't stop people from buying cars, or dealers from making a profit. But imagine buying a car without knowing these prices?
Dancing costs a lot more than buying a car, of course (over the expected service years of the car).
The truth is, in the overwhelming majority of dancers, a student within the first three or four years of dancing has no clue what other pros/studios in the area are charging for lessons and comps, what the pro in the pro-am couple who defeated them in the comp had charged for fees and for lessons, or anything else. And it is tacky, in a polite society, to go around asking about that. So you wait to find that info any way you can, and often too late.
I don't see a good reason for not having an activist mentality among students (pro-am students especially) to publicize the costs of dancing and provide a means of comparing them across regions, studios, and for individual teachers.
I do, however, see a lot of good reasons for the students in learning about that. I think that publicizing as many rates as possible will help establish an idea of a median cost, in the mind of the student, and the teacher. Those who wish to charge way out of line will stand out, and the customer can have a choice to patronize them or not. And I think that, yes, this might help bring some of these prices in line and create real competition.
To sum up, I don't see any harm to students in knowing the prices. And a lot of good.
On the other hand, to bring up a touchy subject, I can see vicious opposition from the pros to such a plan because, if nothing else, a lot of this is cash business and I believe that some of the extremely highly paid pros do not account for their real income when preparing their taxes.

FeetwithaBeat

08-30-2008, 08:26 AM

Larinda McRaven

08-30-2008, 08:55 AM

Shouldn't the blame for one's unhappiness about something fall squarely on that own person's shoulders?

We all make choices and the price we pay for making choices is the consequence of those choices.

If you are unhappy about the consequence of a choice -- DO NOT MAKE THAT CHOICE AGAIN.

bless you

SDsalsaguy

08-30-2008, 11:30 AM

If you are unhappy about the consequence of a choice -- DO NOT MAKE THAT CHOICE AGAIN.
EXACTLY FeetwithaBeat!!! As per my signature line: "If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you always got"

wooh

08-30-2008, 01:34 PM

Why is the Pro always the one to blame? Shouldn't the blame for one's unhappiness about something fall squarely on that own person's shoulders? We all make choices and the price we pay for making choices is the consequence of those choices. If you are unhappy about the consequence of a choice -- DO NOT MAKE THAT CHOICE AGAIN.

:notworth:

danceronice

08-30-2008, 02:07 PM

What FeetwithaBeat said. I chose what I spend on dancing.

DancingJools

08-30-2008, 03:22 PM

"However, the system really is rigged against the student"

Let's take the pro couple who does little to no pro/am. So they have to pay for their own coaching (like the Am), they have to pay for their own costuming (like the AM), they have to pay for their own travel to the comp (like the AM) they have to pay for their lodging, meals, entry fees (like the AM). NO they don't have to pay someone to be there with them (but then neither does the cost conscious AM they just have to do Am/Am instead) -- but they do give up teaching time/income to be there. So when you look at it like this, the system is rigged against the Pro competitor too then isn't it? Thus making it the organizers's fault -- but if you look at it, the organizer has to pay for judges, meals, guarentee the hotel a certain number of rooms/meals to offset the cost of the ballroom, has to pay to rent the floor, has to pay to rent the lighting, has to pay the deejay, has to pay the scrutineer(s), etc. , so when viewed this way, it's the hotel, judges et al fault. But then they have exepenses and have to be paid so it's really THEIR fault and the list goes on and on and on and on...

Why is the Pro always the one to blame? Shouldn't the blame for one's unhappiness about something fall squarely on that own person's shoulders? We all make choices and the price we pay for making choices is the consequence of those choices. If you are unhappy about the consequence of a choice -- DO NOT MAKE THAT CHOICE AGAIN.
You totally misunderstood my point.
The reason I believe the system is rigged is not because the am in the pro-am couple is paying for certain services. After all, that is the whole idea in the pro-am deal. And amen to all those who repeated the mantra of "we are free to spend as we please." Bless you and spend ahead.

However, I believe it is misleading to suggest that freedom of choice is a better alternative than freedom of informed choice. I am all for choice. I am even more strongly in favor of informed choices.

Isn't it better to make the choice of not using a certain service BEFORE one finds out it is not the right choice, rather than after?

I am so surprised that this argument would make some people so very, very angry.

Please go back and read my original post.

contracheck

08-30-2008, 03:36 PM

"However, the system really is rigged against the student"

Let's take the pro couple who does little to no pro/am. So they have to pay for their own coaching (like the Am), they have to pay for their own costuming (like the AM), they have to pay for their own travel to the comp (like the AM) they have to pay for their lodging, meals, entry fees (like the AM). NO they don't have to pay someone to be there with them (but then neither does the cost conscious AM they just have to do Am/Am instead) -- but they do give up teaching time/income to be there. So when you look at it like this, the system is rigged against the Pro competitor too then isn't it? Thus making it the organizers's fault -- but if you look at it, the organizer has to pay for judges, meals, guarentee the hotel a certain number of rooms/meals to offset the cost of the ballroom, has to pay to rent the floor, has to pay to rent the lighting, has to pay the deejay, has to pay the scrutineer(s), etc. , so when viewed this way, it's the hotel, judges et al fault. But then they have exepenses and have to be paid so it's really THEIR fault and the list goes on and on and on and on...

Why is the Pro always the one to blame? Shouldn't the blame for one's unhappiness about something fall squarely on that own person's shoulders? We all make choices and the price we pay for making choices is the consequence of those choices. If you are unhappy about the consequence of a choice -- DO NOT MAKE THAT CHOICE AGAIN.

Can you expalin to us where the transparency and full disclosures are? Don't we live in the age of transparency for a fair play?

tanya_the_dancer

08-30-2008, 05:00 PM

Isn't it better to make the choice of not using a certain service BEFORE one finds out it is not the right choice, rather than after?

Shouldn't it be up to each individual to get information before making the choice?

wooh

08-30-2008, 05:05 PM

So where should the comparison be laid out? Consumer Reports? Before I started dancing, I got on the internet and researched the heck out of it. (Which I basically do for EVERYTHING that I do.) It doesn't matter if we have a place that says, "Larinda charges x, Easy charges y, and Josh charges z minus pi times the diameter of the am's skirt plus an extra dollar per day for being cute." Because people that go to their local chain and say, "Wow, that's expensive but I'll do it" without doing any research are STILL going to do that even if a chart is out there. The people that are willing to do a little research can already do the research. Either way, people are going to whine and moan that this comp is too expensive but this comp that's cheaper isn't at a nice enough hotel and this pro charges too much and this pro charges less but doesn't dote on me the way I want. And there will be people that are perfectly happy. Just like we have now.
You can find what you want if you're willing look around and to pay the going rate for it. If you aren't willing to pay the going rate, then you'll need to adjust what you want or go without.

DancingJools

08-30-2008, 05:54 PM

We are beating around the bush over a simple question (to my mind). I'll try to phrase it clearly:

Do you think teachers and studios should publish their rates for lessons and for competitions and make them available to prospective students?

It's as simple as that. Why should it be a cat-and-mouse game and a wink-and-a-nod and a "catch me if you can" mentality? Yes, it is possible to say "the student should go and search for information." I agree, absolutely. But is it OK to leave the burden SOLELY on the student? I also say, "Teachers and studios should be REQUIRED to disclose their fees and associated costs - in advance."

Can you imagine us having this conversation if we are talking about any other kind of service?

The specific issue I am raising with pro-am fees is that by the time an unsuspecting student realizes what the comp fees are likely to be, he/she had already invested a significant amount of time and money with that specific teacher/studio.

What, again, is anyone's objection to teachers/studios disclosing ALL their fees to prospective students?

PS- Since I have been dancing pro-am for something like 10 years now, I've seen a lot. And that includes many really, really competent and decent teachers and studios who do indeed give out this info when you ask them. As they should. So what is the problem when I suggest that this should be the norm? And if there are those who refuse to disclose this info, and if the powers that be (i.e. the NDCA) are not likely, in my lifetime at least, to REQUIRE pros and studios to disclose anything, why not go out and put together a mechanism that allows students to exchange this info?
It seems to me that is EXACTLY the kind of research students are encouraged to do when they take on pro-am dancing.

contracheck

08-30-2008, 06:28 PM

We are beating around the bush over a simple question (to my mind). I'll try to phrase it clearly:

Do you think teachers and studios should publish their rates for lessons and for competitions and make them available to prospective students?

Yes, from pro-am fees to subprime mortgages to car purchases, we the consumers must demand transparency and total disclosure. If the teachers and studios don't do it voluntatilly, we must assume that they have something to hide, and we should pressure dance organizations to institute such rules. If dance organizations are reluctant to do it, we should go to the Congress.

samina

08-30-2008, 06:33 PM

I don't think professionals and studios should be *required* to publish their rates. I find that type of control or regulation highly objectionable. And entirely unnecessary.

The info's already out there, for the asking. And prospective pro-amers always have the opportunity to develop more where-with-all to gather better information if it's obscured. Acting as if people do not is "nannification" in my book.

samina

08-30-2008, 06:37 PM

If the teachers and studios don't do it voluntatilly, we must assume that they have something to hide.
Nonsense.

But your post sounds tinged with sarcasm...in which case I approve. ;)

DancingJools

08-30-2008, 06:47 PM

The info's already out there, for the asking. ...

I wish it were so, Sam. And I think the many threads on these forums about students trying to figure out how comp costs are constructed is an indication that this remains an obscure field. Why should people come here to find out this info, unless it's because they can't get it from the source (i.e. the teacher)?

I think some of the very negative reaction I got to my suggestions is that people assumed I am anti-pro-am, or anti-pro. I am not. I also think there is a general agreement in this community that a good way to get rid of sleeze in this business is to have people better informed.
I still think that is true. One thing we do here on these forums is exchange info. However, the forums' rules prohibit us from specifying names. I understand, and don't agree, with these rules, though I usually abide by them. I think there is space for some new online utility, though, where people can exchange more open info about named entities.

Kind of like reviewing a hotel, I suppose.

And before we get too lost in the getting back and forth about all this, I do wish to bring back the logic behind my entire argument:

Better and more specific information about pricing will help keep prices competitive, and that is good for students.

I believe that rule applies in all fields of business and service, and in dancing as well.

contracheck

08-30-2008, 06:53 PM

Nonsense.

But your post sounds tinged with sarcasm...in which case I approve. ;)

One day several yrs ago, a group of students were riding together to a competition together for pro-am. They all had the same pro. The conversation drifted to the topic of pro-am fees they were charged by this pro. They found out that their pro charged different fees to different students. The pro also charged his full hotel, travel and meal expenses to each student.

etp777

08-30-2008, 06:59 PM

Heh, sure that made for an interesting conversation with the pro afterwards.

That being said, I have no issues with pro/studio charging different rates to different students. I do the same thing in my contracting, based on a variety of factors (type of work I'm doing for them, whether they're friend, type of business they are, etc).

Charging the full hotel and stuff to everyone, that I wouldn't do.

But not all students are the same, they're not all getting the same level of instruction (not that pro's skill changed, but like if my first week in, pro started talking about the two different axis hips move on in cuban motion, wouldn't have a clue what she was talking about), they're not all in the same financial situation,e tc.

SDsalsaguy

08-30-2008, 07:05 PM

One day several yrs ago, a group of students were riding together to a competition together for pro-am. They all had the same pro. The conversation drifted to the topic of pro-am fees they were charged by this pro. They found out that their pro charged different fees to different students. The pro also charged his full hotel, travel and meal expenses to each student.
While probably problematic, this could also be legitimate. What if, for instance, said pro charged all students on exactly the same sliding scale: In such a case each student might well pay a different amount, might or might not decide if they wanted to, but the whole thing be above reproach. Similarly, some pros charge a flat comp or comp/hotel fee regardless of how many students they take with them... yes, this makes them "extra" money if they have a lot of students at a particular event, but much of this might well go to offset their costs at an event with only one student.

Again, I'm not saying that the case you describe sounds kosher, but it all depends on the details!

DancingJools

08-30-2008, 07:19 PM

Oh give me a break, guys. Aren't you bending just a little too far backwards to justify things you know in your guts should not happen? And they wouldn't, if people could talk about them more openly. At least, I think they would happen far less often, and "repeat offenders" will become fewer and fewer.

etp777

08-30-2008, 07:23 PM

I can quote you rates for bronze instruction at at least 6 studios ion my area right now, dancingjools. As others have said, I haven't had any trouble finding these things out, I'm not sure why others do. Too many people don't do the legwork. Are there people overcharging in proam? sure. Just like there are in any other business. Is everyone with a high price overchargiing? No, not always. Different skills, differnet business models, etc.

Just because you think there's a huge problem, doesn't mean that everyone feels that way, and is just rationalizing.

Edited to add that those rates were all before I left for kuwait, haven't gotten new rates from all those studios since I came back, but that was only 10 months ago that I found all those rates, so my argument still stands. :)

DancingJools

08-30-2008, 07:49 PM

Great. Can you share this info with us, please?
Oh - and don't forget to include their comp pricing structure, since that's what this conversation is mostly about.:p:p

etp777

08-30-2008, 07:53 PM

I've shared it before in multiple threads. Won't sshare specifics again bbecause I know it's out of date. But at time, ranged from 75-145/lesson, with the high price places generally offering discounts if you bought packages.

These are chicago and suburbs, as of last summer/fall. I know my studio has raised prices since then (though we're still lower than that top price ;) ) so sure others have too.

DancingJools

08-30-2008, 07:59 PM

... ranged from 75-145/lesson, with the high price places generally offering discounts if you bought packages....

I promise this is the last post I will put through tonight, because I've said mostly what I wanted to say on this, and we are now just getting silly.

Thanks for sharing the info. It is so broad and unspecific that it applies to just about anywhere in the country.
I think you just proved my point.

etp777

08-30-2008, 08:01 PM

No, you choose to take it as proving your point, that the information isn't available, rather than looking at fact that the rates very well are available, consumers just have to do the legwork to get it. Your argument that the information isn't available is patently false, or I wouldn't know all the prices. We have whol threads that discuss what people pay at what type of studio (indy or franchise) in what areas of the country. These threads have all given people a very good idea of what's out there. And for those who are local to me and have pm'd me for further details, i've been happy to share them, even when I have to tell them they can go to another studio for lower rates if they want, and even point them to studios that I know are cheaper. The basis of the argument though, that the information isn't available, is just not the case.

Oh, and meant to say this earlier, but as always, thanks for your input Laura. I alreayd do what I can to keep my dancing cheap, including several things off your list, but going to go through list you gave again this week,a nd compare it to my expenditures, and see if I'm missing any further places to cut costs.

danceronice

08-30-2008, 08:05 PM

I can share my competition and lesson rates quite easily. For a lesson, because of the number I buy at once, I pay $75 per lesson. $80 if I buy fewer. Group lessons, purchased separately, are $12 or $16 each, also depending on how many you buy. For a competition, I pay, currently, $75 per dance (including per each individual dance in a scholarship.) Part of that is my entry fees, part of it is the pro fee. The only time I pay the studio for anything else is hotels for Ohio Star Ball, where I pay the same per-dance fee plus for my own hotel room, because it's just easier to let them book things for that comp (see the thread about OSB hotels). Makes it easy to find roommates, too.

contracheck

08-30-2008, 08:09 PM

I've shared it before in multiple threads. Won't sshare specifics again bbecause I know it's out of date. But at time, ranged from 75-145/lesson, with the high price places generally offering discounts if you bought packages.

I am more interested in the construct of pro-am fees and mark ups rather than the hourly lesson fees. Hourly lesson fees are generally transparent and they disclosed in studio websites. Except for exceptional pros and studios, Pro-am fees are on the other hand usually kept in darkness.

samina

08-30-2008, 08:11 PM

Better and more specific information about pricing will help keep prices competitive, and that is good for students.

i agree. and all it takes if for students to insist upon this, that's all. no other requirements needed. " i need specifics. thank you that works for me. thank you, that doesn't." end of story.

if a studio isn't as forthcoming as a particular segment of the market wants or needs, they have lost that market. if they want it, they will change. if not...that market will find it elsewhere.

really, it is as simple as that, IMO.

the beauty of DF here is that it can mobilize higher expectation of transparency or honesty...and then we can take that back into the marketplace and improve upon it. that is very powerful.

samina

08-30-2008, 08:13 PM

and123

08-30-2008, 08:27 PM

For a competition, I pay, currently, $75 per dance (including per each individual dance in a scholarship.)

Plus you are responsible for the fees for any session you are in, and some vague "registration" fee is always tacked on.

contracheck

08-30-2008, 08:28 PM

am curious...do those students still have the same pro?

I understand that the pro has left the area for other reasons.

ChaChaMama

08-30-2008, 08:28 PM

You know, I agree with DJ's main argument, if not necessarily every particular. Transparency in pricing is a good thing! I don't think it would harm the service providers, either. Some people may just assume that they can't afford pro-am (On the theory of "If you have to ask..."), and might be pleasantly surprised to find out it is within reach.

I see what Samina is saying about nannification, but wouldn't it be nice if the industry chose to SELF-regulate in favor of greater transparency? (I know, I know--and it would also be nice if everyone were kind to their neighbors.)

****
Getting back to the ORIGINAL topic of whether pro-am prices are out of hand, I just added up all the costs I could think of from my first (and thus far, only) pro-am weekend. These costs included:

-Fees paid to professional teacher, his studio, and the competition for entries

-Hair and make-up for competition.

-Two nights at Hilton, plus $9/parking per day, plus $5/tip per day for housekeeping.

-All meals/drinks purchased during comp, both at hotel and out on the town. (I did bring some food from home, as I had a recollection that the food service at this hotel is slooooow.)

-Entry to ballroom as spectator for Saturday night--table seating (Yes, I spoil myself like this all the time.)

-program

-DVD of all my events

-10 photos from Park West

My grand total is still less than $1800.

Yes, it helps that this was a relatively local comp (1 3/4 hrs away, so no plane flight). Yes, this is clearly not a cheap hobby. Still, hardly out of control.

-

emeralddancer

08-30-2008, 08:33 PM

Ok so as a beginner student here ...I already I think made a post that "what one is worth" and I totally stand by that.

That being said .... I am starting to really get lost on ALL of this.

I mean I knew before I signed up for lessons I wanted to eventually compete. I have even stated that to my instructor prior to ever taking my first lesson with him. However I had NO CLUE as to the fees outside of my taking classes.

So UNTIL finding this forum I had absolutely NO clue as to the monies involved at all for competition, not that I didn't expect to pay something mind you, but was surprised to find out about paying for lodgings, food, time, heats, etc ... of my instructor. (especially if there are a few of us students competing at the same event! Then there would be costs that are divided between us right?) I mean I am all for it, but I want a break down so I can judge accordingly.

Why shouldn't fees be disclosed? Even the profit a instructor or studio may make? (and YES this will vary by student, that I am aware of too! and I do NOT expect to know what another student pays. That is between the instructor and the other student! As mine is between my instructor and myself) Is there a sin in knowing what someone is making off of me?

I work in the finance field and will relate this to my personal experiences. When I have worked on mortgage loans for people they are given a good faith estimate that SHOULD break down all of the fees involved (even in fine print) it IS the law for full disclosure. Now I ALWAYS ALWAYS went over these fees line by line with my clients and had NO problem ever disclosing MY profit. (I have to make money too right?) Mortgages have many hands in the pot as does ballroom dancing. IE: title fees, appraisal fees, lenders fees, brokers fees, agents fees, the other agents fees and my fees. At no time (if you are an truly honest mortgage professional there should be no hidden fees ... ie: the back end, which is also disclosed but more often LITERALLY in teeny tiny fine print!) Therefore why should I not know what my FEE is covering in the ballroom world? Like the time of the instructor being with me, heat fees, food, lodging, airfare, studio compensation, floor rental, instructor compensation?

I mean take my instructor ... I pay him X amount of $ a month to take 2 lessons a week for 45 to 50 mins. Alot of times he is very generous with me and may extend my class time depending on his time, other students, etc ... At other times it is a strict 45 to 50 mins INCLUDING setting up the next week schedule to meet. I also know he pays a floor fee to the studio, but I am not going to ask that in this case because I trust that is covered and my fees to him are great compared to the area I am in and the studio I go to. Now when it becomes time that he feels I am ready to enter my first comp. I will be asking him the fees of entry, what I am expected to cover, if other students are going and if there is a way to defray some costs depending on the students of his. (like the hotel room and food)

As a AM I am FULLY prepared and expect my instructor to make money. Or why the who ha would any of theses instructors do this? I also expect him to make a pretty decent penny for his TIME and KNOWLEDGE. I respect that and him and other pros who have put in the sweat equity to their chosen craft. It is why we go to them right?

However there has got to be mutual respect in me to know WHAT I am being charged and why. Allow me to make the INFORMED decision for when I do compete, I know what I am paying for and what I need to save.

I am more apt to pay more money for something if someone is 100% COMPETELY honest with me. If I am told that a comp including everything is $5000 and my teacher is lying to me to make a quick buck because "I am new and haven't competed and don't know the ballroom world, etc..." I WILL take offense to that and be PISSED!!!! If however the comp is $5000 and I get a break down including what he is making, he is allowing me to be apart of the decision making process.

I think full disclosure is right, necessary, and honest. I do not pay for anything on blind faith at all. PERIOD!!!!

I search too and to reiterate another poster ... fees for the actual comps and heats are not hard to find. LOL I believe in research too and if you find yourself in a situation where a instructor or studio will not disclose ... find another place to dance. This was a TOTAL generalization on disclosure ....

*jumping off my soap box*

P.S. I really do have some great people at my studio .. and I am VERY thankful for that!!! I have heard horror stories ... egads!

emeralddancer

08-30-2008, 08:49 PM

They found out that their pro charged different fees to different students.

I have no issue with this per se ... that is to be expected!

The pro also charged his full hotel, travel and meal expenses to each student.

However THIS I have a problem with.

Hopefully this is completely out of the norm and not the standard!

contracheck

08-30-2008, 09:11 PM

I work in the finance field and will relate this to my personal experiences. When I have worked on mortgage loans for people they are given a good faith estimate that SHOULD break down all of the fees involved (even in fine print) it IS the law for full disclosure.

Good, good, when all other business require transpaency and full disclosure by law, why dance fees should be exceptions unless there is a dark side, i.e., something to hide? I suspect that one day transparency will be required in dance fees, too. The entropy is tilted to that direction.

contracheck

08-30-2008, 09:18 PM

I have no issue with this per se ... that is to be expected!

Do you think the student, who is charged a higher fee than other students for similar pro-am dance, is happy with the treatment that person received? These facts are all hidden and the students in the car found it out by accident.

emeralddancer

08-30-2008, 09:26 PM

Do you think the student, who is charged a higher fee than other students for similar pro-am dance, is happy with the treatment that person received? These facts are all hidden and the students in the car found it out by accident.

What I do not have a problem with, is this .... My instructor has many students right? Some have been with him like 7 to 9 yrs now. I have been with him for a year. So there IS a price difference on instruction. One of his students recently decided to do a comp and entered into it at novice or bronze or whatever the beginning one is. IF I entered that same comp or level or what ever ... we should be charged similarly for the comp if we are competing at the same level. Does this make better sense?

danceronice

08-30-2008, 10:19 PM

Plus you are responsible for the fees for any session you are in, and some vague "registration" fee is always tacked on.

Oh, yeah, I think there may have been a $25 fee on there. But when it's already $1200, I can't say I even particularly notice THAT. It's on the invoice I get. That's a cost-of-doing-business issue. I've never gone over $1400 for a competition yet in terms of actual studio costs. I could, if I wanted to dance more heats, but that's entirely up to me. As for "session fee" if you mean tickets, that's not the studio. I buy those myself, usually just for the sessions I'm dancing in unless there's REALLY something I want to see in another. (Generally not.) The only people I know who pay more than $1500 or less are the people doing LOTS of heats and scholarships. If I could afford to do those, I would. I'm definitely never pressured to enter more heats or had anyone try to sell me "extras" of any kind, because there aren't really any extras to sell. I can't imagine dancing only, say, fifteen heats and being expected to fork over $3000+ unless that covered EVERYTHING-food, tickets, hotel, dances, etc.

And I do get an invoice that says how much the comp fee is, with the other fee noted (I think that sheet is still around here somewhere.) But if they didn't give them out, I could still ask for one and get one. It's just good business to have a written bill or contract (though going by my real estate clients, not everyone reads what they're signing all the time.)

Warren J. Dew

08-30-2008, 10:30 PM

One day several yrs ago, a group of students were riding together to a competition together for pro-am. They all had the same pro. The conversation drifted to the topic of pro-am fees they were charged by this pro. They found out that their pro charged different fees to different students. The pro also charged his full hotel, travel and meal expenses to each student.

I think this is an example of why full disclosure wouldn't do much good. In this case, the pro actually did disclose expenses. The disclosure didn't keep him from charging the full amount multiple times.

I am a little curious why the students didn't say, "how come I'm paying your full expenses when you have X other students going", though. To be honest, they sound like the type that signs contracts without reading them, so disclosure rules don't help them.

As for the different fees, there can be plenty of different reasons for that. A pro might continue to charge a lower lesson fee to a student who took a chance on him when he was unknown and helped him get started. A pro might charge a lower competition fee to a particularly good student who was likely to do well in a high profile event, since that might enhance the pro's reputation and future income.

I don't see the benefit in prohibiting those things. This isn't a commodity industry; every instructor is different and every student is different.

contracheck

08-30-2008, 11:09 PM

I am a little curious why the students didn't say, "how come I'm paying your full expenses when you have X other students going", though. To be honest, they sound like the type that signs contracts without reading them, so disclosure rules don't help them.

Please understand that by the time the students were heading for the competition together in a car and found out the pro's charges through unplanned accidental conversation, the fees had been paid. There was no way of protesting before hand.

Easy

08-31-2008, 12:30 AM

If I have more than one student going to a competition, the expenses such as hotel and travel are divided evenly.

Since I stated earlier that I charge a minimum of 8 hours lost lesson time, I will not divide that evenly. It would be ludicrous for me to have more students go and divide that profit evenly. I give all the students a discount such as 2 or more equals this price, 3 or more equals this price, etc. But it wouldn't be fair for me to have the same profit for 4 students going as I would if I only had 1 student attending. More business should equal more profit.

I expalin my prices fairly. I don't get into every nickel and dime. An explanation of what the fees are, what they are for, and what could or could not be included should suffice.

It's almost sounding like some of you want to know how the butcher obtained his meat, who'd he buy it from and for how much, and btw what's your electric bill, and so on...

On another note since mortgages were brought up....is it fair that an agent let's say makes 6% of the sale? A house costing $100,000 would net the agent $6,000. A house costing $1,000,000 would net the agent $60,000. Is it fair that for the same time and effort, the agent makes so much more for the second house. I guess the answer is yes since it's based on a percentage, but it doesn't sit right with me. Kinda similar to profiting off of people more because they have more. Yes all things are disclosed ahead of time, but isn't that what helps to drive up the costs of buying a house? I don't like it, but I'm not going to Congress about it.

All businesses are different is really my point...I'm just a little bitter, cuz things aren't really going that great for me. :(

I'm for pros disclosing costs for better informed business transactions. Lawyers and doctors set their fees, but I'm not allowed to know their ACTUAL profit margin. It's none of my business! And it's not my client's business to know mine to the last detail! If you don't like the lawyer's, doctor's, dancer's, or anyone else's pricing....SHOP ELSEWHERE.

If you want to have a website where ams can exchange pricing info and whatever else, quit talking about it and wishing and expect someone else to do it. Just do it!

Since I'm feeling a bit lazy, please take care of the diamond industry, which hordes most of the world's diamonds(which there are plenty of), in order to control the pricing by supply and demand. And while you're at it, report the pharmacies which mark up their meds hundreds of percents. If you don't believe me about the pharmacies, check out their prices, and then compare them to the prices at Costco. Costco is much closer to the actual cost...and btw....you don't have to be a member to use the pharmacy at Costco. It's the law. ;)

I'm just rambling...I had to get it out. But seriously, check out the Costco thing

BOT...You're entitled to know the costs or a general breakdown, but you're not entitled to know my take home. Goodnight :)

Warren J. Dew

08-31-2008, 12:53 AM

It's almost sounding like some of you want to know how the butcher obtained his meat, who'd he buy it from and for how much, and btw what's your electric bill, and so on...

The funny thing is, while I definitely agree with you for the dance industry, I was actually asking a butcher today which meat was corn fed, which meat was grass fed, whether the salmon was from the Atlantic or the Pacific, etc. Also, the U.S. has tracking requirements for meat, instituted during a mad cow scare, that has helped shut down salmonella outbreaks associated with beef within days; contrast that with the months it took us to figure out the recent vegetable based salmonella outbreak.

That said, I'm not sure what the equivalent would be for dance. I guess professional certifications would be somewhat like the meat grading system and the requirements for labeling such as "natural" and "organic". I think it might be legitimate to ask an instructor about where and from whom he got his training, but not much more than that.

All businesses are different is really my point...I'm just a little bitter, cuz things aren't really going that great for me. :(

I'm curious, is this something that can be attributed to industry shifts, like retirees not doing ballroom any more or competition from immigrants? Obviously don't answer if you don't want to talk about it.

reb

08-31-2008, 01:02 AM

Do you think teachers and studios should publish their rates for lessons and for competitions and make them available to prospective students?

Can you imagine us having this conversation if we are talking about any other kind of service?

Do you mean a standard rate sheet which could be discussed when in the presence of the service provider? If this is what you mean, then I agree with you.

If you mean publish their standard rates on websites . . . many business do not publish prices on their websites. One can still get their standard prices as a prospective client, but that involves discussion about your needs, desires, experiences, goals and the types and levels of services they can provide. If all one wants are 'lessons' and a low price, then its a cost shoot-out and most quality service providers don't want to play in that manner.

With service industries in particular, it often involves complexities about scope, etc., which has even been discussed to some extent in this thread relative to dancing. Publishing rates does satisify the need for comparison shoppers to make quick rate comparisons, and is particularly useful when shopping for cans of corn, but does not satisfy the desire of the service providers to listen to the prospect's goals and desires and as well as explain the service which accompanies their rates.

To the person looking for a quick comparison, this may be abhorrent, but to the small business person (includes independent teachers and independent studios, not employees) who is risk everything (as opposed to taking risks with their spending money), this is extremely important.

latingal

08-31-2008, 01:12 AM

Egads....just reading this thread can make one tired.

I am an informed consumer, I do my research, I only do business in this industry with those I deem trustworthy, and yes I know this is a business and profit margins are to be expected.

As for transparency in pricing. I can either ask different pros myself or ask his/her students (if they are comfortable in disclosing the information). I also hear through the grapevine quite a bit of information as to how much different levels of pros are charging. Do I need more than that? No, not in my case because I have enough information about the services and pricing to make an informed decision as to whether purchasing these services are WORTH IT TO ME.

Are costs out of hand? The market will charge what the market will bear. Each consumer needs to make their own decision. Do we need a union to protect pro-am students? You could try to argue the case that it would give the students more bargaining power, but the services provided in this industry are so widely varied and personalized that putting a standard price on them would be problematic to the industry and the subsequent union.

Unions are also formed where exploitation is a problem. And since ballroom is a luxury service, I'm not sure exploitation would be something I would consider as a reason to unionize.

Okay, just my two cents....

[edit to add: started composing this before the prior post about industry average pricing statistics....that would be a nice to have, but as the poster said, it's for quick comparison on an average service in an average area.]

tangotime

08-31-2008, 02:39 AM

. Snip....

I think it might be legitimate to ask an instructor about where and from whom he got his training, but not much more than that.

Kinda strange.. that Pros frequently ask that Q, altho the reasons are probably different

DancingJools

08-31-2008, 04:47 AM

Do you mean a standard rate sheet which could be discussed when in the presence of the service provider? If this is what you mean, then I agree with you.

If you mean publish their standard rates on websites . . .

Actually, all I had in mind was the sheet to be provided to new students detailing the costs of taking lessons, and a similar sheet to those considering entering competitions, detailing relevant costs. I believe there is nothing in the rules that requires professionals to disclose these fees. Many, many places simply do not do so, orally or in writing. And because I am not into pro-am bashing, I am NOT going to get into the many, many cases of well-known places that actually hem and haw and fudge when a student tries to find out these things in advance, and where students need to have spent years in the business, literally, before they get the savvy to push for answers. Judging from the above pages, where I to mention these, I will be hammered with protests about how it is entirely the student's fault, because he/she is an idiot. (On the other hand, it seems that if students do push for answers they are just being nosy and out to deprive the teachers of their livelihood).

Is it such a bad thing to say that students, who share an interest in dancing, should be able to find out this info freely, from the pro and/or from each other?

We've beaten this horse to death, now, I think.

emeralddancer

08-31-2008, 05:23 AM

On another note since mortgages were brought up....is it fair that an agent let's say makes 6% of the sale? A house costing $100,000 would net the agent $6,000. A house costing $1,000,000 would net the agent $60,000. Is it fair that for the same time and effort, the agent makes so much more for the second house. I guess the answer is yes since it's based on a percentage, but it doesn't sit right with me. Kinda similar to profiting off of people more because they have more. Yes all things are disclosed ahead of time, but isn't that what helps to drive up the costs of buying a house? I don't like it, but I'm not going to Congress about it.

Ah but see this is where you are actually mistaken! Assuming that agent makes 6%, in actuality that agent (or Pro) is really only profiting 40% of that 6% and the other 60% of that 6% goes to the actual brokerage (the studio) For sake of argument. The time and effort by the way in this (mortgages) is not dependent upon 1 sole person either, but a collective group of individuals across several avenues of finance to come together to deliver a product in which the consumer is paying for ( the time and effort put into actually getting a loan from application to close) . Unlike ballroom ... a pro that states x, y, and z fees and only a 1/8 or 1/4 (?) of it is going towards heat fees, price of admission to the comp, etc ... where is the rest going? To the pro ... his time, his expenses, his knowledge, his studio ... so even the comp organizers aren't making as much ... only on heats, admissions, maybe a % from the vendors, heck they certainly aren't making anything on the hotel rooms ... those are usually discounted by the hotel for a certain number of people they have to guarantee and if the organizers don't "fill" up they are the ones taking it out of pocket to pay for vacant rooms (unlikely in this case but a possibility) PLUS the event organizers are paying other expenses too (not saying they aren't profiting because of the number of people entering and such.)

Ergo ... why I would like to know what in the fees I pay my instructor goes to him and what goes to the studio and what is going to the actual competition. There is nothing wrong with disclosure.

Again I related mortgages to ballroom because there are many hands in the money pot!

Um... disclosure of prices does NOT drive up the cost of purchasing a house... what drives prices of the houses up are shady brokers, realtors, appraisers, etc (I can show you ALL the tricks and what to look out for, really! LOL) ... Same goes in the ballroom world! (That I can not show you, so I am assuming ... )

Disclosure is intended to keep people on the level and competitive and honest.

If you (general you that is) are honest in what you do and say ... you will make the money no matter what.

Now I must digress for the moment and state that anything I have said has been in the sake of the discussion, I have a habit of playing devil's advocate. :D

That part being said, and as a newbie in this realm of ballroom, I think I have lucked out on some of the greatest instructors and studio and people in this field. I have not experienced anything but honesty and integrity and kindness and a willingness to have my questions answered. Thank goodness for good people!!!!!

emeralddancer

08-31-2008, 05:33 AM

All businesses are different is really my point...I'm just a little bitter, cuz things aren't really going that great for me. :(

Easy ... I sincerely hope it gets better!!!!!! :D

samina

08-31-2008, 08:54 AM

Good, good, when all other business require transpaency and full disclosure by law, why dance fees should be exceptions unless there is a dark side, i.e., something to hide? I suspect that one day transparency will be required in dance fees, too. The entropy is tilted to that direction.

Sounds like your comment about going to congress wasn't sarcastic after all...

I just don't understand why any one feels this "transparency" has to be forced by some kind of governing body, when it should already be a normal part of any business transaction and is already within the power of the consumer to expect this. It sounds to me like consumers who have absolved themselves of their responsibility to know what they're paying for and make their contractual agreements before they pay, and then wanna go whining to the governing body to do that for them instead.

Joe

08-31-2008, 09:17 AM

emeralddancer

08-31-2008, 09:36 AM

contracheck

08-31-2008, 10:00 AM

I just don't understand why any one feels this "transparency" has to be forced by some kind of governing body, when it should already be a normal part of any business transaction and is already within the power of the consumer to expect this.

If transparency is already a normal part of a business, there is no need to force it by rules. If eveyone conducts life like Easy does, we don't need any law. The lengthy pro and con discussions here, however, indicates that transparency is not always a normal part of business in dance charges.

wooh

08-31-2008, 01:45 PM

Dance instructors/studios shouldn't be expected to act like Geico. Heck, none of the other car insurance companies act like Geico and give you their rates and the rates of their competitors. I go into things expecting that "Buyer Beware" is in effect. I choose how I spend my money. If I don't comparison shop and ask questions, then I expect there to be a gamble on whether I got a good value for my dollar. It's not the fault of the people I do business with, it's my own for not asking questions. I don't expect pro x to tell me, "I charge 10 times what pro y does, AND you'll have to pay for a helicopter to transport me to the competition 2 blocks from my house," UNLESS I ask for the costs. If I do ask, they can share as much or as little as they want, and it's my choice if I accept that or not. But I'm not going to go around, not ask questions, or accept that I'm not getting the answers that I want, then spend the money anyway and whine about it.

Laura

08-31-2008, 02:12 PM

Here's the thing...there are people who have developed smart shopping habits and an ability to say "no," and those that haven't. If this were not the case, much of the credit card industry would not exist.

There are people who start buying lessons -- and lessons are not cheap -- and never stop to ask how much a comp will cost when their teacher talks up doing the comp. Now, it might be very good if it became standard operating procedure that when a teacher or studio head approaches a student about competing that they also give an outline of what things will cost. However, a good number of people are so enamored of the idea of being in a competition that they just never bother to ask.

My first comps were at a chain. I knew nothing about dancing or competing or Pro/Am. I felt flattered that the head of the studio thought I was ready to go to competitions (I didn't realize that being able to breathe and have a working credit card were pretty much the only qualifications.) However, because of my shopping habits, I kept my head and asked questions. And I got answers. And from those answers I got a package more tailored to what I wanted to do and what I was willing to pay. This was back in the days before there was a World Wide Web to look stuff up on, and before there were places like Dance Forums to get answers from. Somehow, I managed to get what I wanted, and ever since then I've always tried to share my knowledge with other newbies. However, we can't do everything for the newbies, especially the silent ones who never ask questions. If someone is the kind of person who never asks how much, who is so besotted with dancing that they can't even think about what they're really spending on it...well, what can you do? And yes, there are sales people out there who take advantage of that, but that is always the case. P.T. Barnum did point out after all that there is a sucker born every minute.

Maybe one avenue is that the NDCA code of ethics could include something about outlining competition costs to students before they actually sign on for anything?

I've got to say that a number of newbies come around and complain about how expensive everything will be, before they've even written out a check. Well, guess what? At that point they can get out of the comp and not pay, simple as that! They can say "no thank you, this is too much money, I would prefer to concentrate on my lessons for now." I think what people are really complaining about is the shock they get when they find out what an expensive sport dancesport is (even for Amateurs). Look, there are expensive sports out there: horse showing, golf, and sailing come to mind. But there are also ways to make these sports more affordable. It might mean participating in a different way/at a different level, but you can't have everything. For instance, someone can keep the cost of horse showing down by doing Pony Club events with a riding school horse. Or they can spend $500,000 to $1M on a nice horse and pay to fly the horse around the country etc. As far as dancesport goes, people can find an amateur partner and do Collegiate and USA Dance comps, or they can find an amateur partner and fly to Europe for training and do overseas competitions and wear $4000 costumes and so on.

And if it's too expensive...well, it's too expensive. There is always something someone wants to do that they can't afford. I would have loved to have owned a $100,000 dressage horse and done all that, but it was just never going to happen. So I found something else I liked to do. I didn't waste a lot of time and energy complaining about how unfair it was that some rich girls got to be home schooled and have their parents buy them any horse and send them to any trainer they wanted, with Hermes saddles and so on.

Once again, I'll say that I'm always there to help and support newbies by answering questions. So always feel free to ask me either in person or via PM! Dancesport, especially Pro/Am, is expensive but there are always ways to cut costs -- which might make it more affordable to more people.