Grinding vs Dancing [Archive]

Genesius Redux

04-06-2004, 10:27 AM

Okay, I am going to "come out of my shell" on this one. :lol: We have had a few threads (thanks Pygmalion on the Index: Club Dancing) on people wanting to learn how to "grind" due to an up coming party.

Why the emphasis on "grinding"? Why not "dancing"?

Doesn't anyone want to learn how to "dance" anymore :cry: Could it be I am in the wrong timezone/generation

No, you're definitely in the right generation.

I dislike the whole grinding thing, because it seems cynically constructed by the music industry (in the same way that rap has been) to capture the spending power of a large segment of a bored populace. The culture and techno music, played in clubs all over the world, encourages the same bored, disaffected stance--sinks people in their ennui, and for the purpose of selling drinks.

You're right that grinding is not dancing--it actually has nothing whatever to do with connecting to a partner, although it pretends to be all about the response between two people. Actually, each person on the floor is caught up in his or her own little world, maybe occasionally checking back with the other "dancers" nearby, but really self-indulgent on the whole.

In fact, we should be amazed that genuine dance still survives at all, in a culture that emphasizes isolation as a market strategy, supported by those same potentially isolating technologies that we're all using right now--the computer and the Internet. But dancing still finds a way, and the world of computer technology has not yet succeeded in keeping people apart, because our natures impel us continually into actual society, actual real relations, discussion, conversation, mutual attention, dancing.

What the dance culture tells you is that you can become a full-fledged member of the dance community by hard work and attention. The more you know the more you can do and learn. And the more freedom, the more alternatives you have in front of you.

Grinding teaches a different lesson. It tells us that we are already free, and that freedom requires no work, no industry, no talent, and no passion. Rather it is the spontaneous expression of our supposed individuality. But at the same time it claims freedom has no price, it exacts a terrible price--the very individuality it claims to offer. Because if you go look at a typical dance floor filled with people who are grinding away, you will come to the conclusion that they all look exactly alike, as opposed to, say, a good salsa club, where individual styles are readily apparent.

Finally, if grinding is such an expression of freedom and individuality, why do so many people come to these forums asking how to grind?

Because they are starved for structure and connection.

So I think it's our responsibility to encourage people who come with these questions to learn some of the basics of a number of dances.

A couple of years ago, I took both my Honors World Lit classes to a guest night at the studio where I was dancing. We got free lessons for bringing guests, and that week guests got in for $1 each. So I offered my students 5 points extra credit on their final percentage average if they came out to dance--I had 30 or so students come out.

In their group class, they learned a rumba box, a waltz box, and basic ECS. And they talked about it for weeks afterwards. Most of them would never have come out if they hadn't been offered the extra credit. They were actually much more interested in talking about rumba and waltz than "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" and "Doctor Faustus."

My point is that, in the midst of whatever advice we may give about how to grind properly, we owe it to the new members to encourage them to go beyond that and learn some real dance principles. We are the Knights of Freedom, and we owe it to those new members who are struggling into the light to vanquish the forces of alienation and corporate greed, and help set free their immortal souls.

Genesius

Pacion

04-06-2004, 11:07 AM

Wow GR! If there was an emoticon for applause, I would have used it here!

we owe it to those new members who are struggling into the light to vanquish the forces of alienation and corporate greed, and help set free their immortal souls.

Beautiful! :D

Sakura

04-06-2004, 11:35 AM

*smiles shyly and waves* Hi guys! I read up on this post, because I thought it would be interesting to get someone else's opinion on the "grinding vs. dancing" bit.

Not that I'm entirely sure my opinion matters as much on this (as I've been dancing for less than a year with only 1-2 lessons a month {Money is the root of all evil.... =>_<=}, I believe that I know far less than anyone here, so I don't really think I can make "educated" comments...), but the "grinding" actions really turn me off to that particular world of "dance." It's in music videos everywhere, everyone is just trying to do their own thing, but it's so devoid of any emotion and connections to the music or to a partner, that I can't stand it myself. I would much rather see a nice latin beat being shared between two partners who are sharing their own connection, living in that moment, in those beats of the music, only with each other, their connection, and their steps. ...You know, it's a shame, with some of the latin stars that have been on the charts, that we couldn't get any ot that... *thinks*

Well, :roll: :oops: that's really all I had to say on this particular topic; thanks for letting me say it!

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

PS- To Genesius Redux: "Look, stange women, lying in ponds, distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government!" *happy sigh* I love Dennis: even if he does bring class into it. =^___^= (I saw your posts on handling a wild Salsera, and I couldn't resist bringing up a quote to a fellow Python fan. :D )

pygmalion

04-06-2004, 12:24 PM

I really don't have time to say more at this point, although I probably will later. My philosophy? To each his own. Some like grinding, others don't. I think both grinding and dancing, as we've defined them here, afford opportunities for individual expression or for mind-numbing conformity. Depends on how you use it.

Pacion

04-06-2004, 12:35 PM

I hear you Pygmalion :wink: . Sakura, your points are valid so please don't apologise for sharing your thoughts.

What I *think* I am trying to get my head/thoughts around is that the interest/focus is so much on "grinding" rather than dancing ie. just moving in time to the music/beat, enjoying the sensuality of the movement. Unless of course, "grinding" is the modern day term for "dancing"?

For me, it is becoming a "chicken and egg" situation. Which came first? Grinding and then dancing? Or Dancing and then Grinding?

I guess it goes without saying that someone who can "grind" does not necessarily make a good dancer (at that point in time) whereas a good dancer could/would make a good "grinder" because they understand about body movement and are not as subconcious about their bodies?

ShyDancer

04-06-2004, 11:59 PM

Ok I have thought about it and decided I will try to tactfully give my opinion...

I dont like grinding at all, I find it offensive actually and would never allow anyone to do it on me.
It has no feeling at all, emotional I mean. It doenst have any emotion that attaches itself to me, nothing to make me play up to the dance.
I guess grinding is supposed to represent a physical attraction to the other person, but it doesnt have the same feel you can play up to like a Lambada, Rumba or Cha Cha...given you have to be dancing with the right partner to fully play out those dances, but you can still get a good dance out of a stranger.
The same cant be applied to grinding, its just so......unclassy...yeah thats the word Im after, there is no class in grinding yourself against another person.

Thats just my humble opinion anyway!

NeoDevin

04-07-2004, 01:44 AM

Grinding is dancing in that you're moving to the music. Grinding isn't supposed to be classy, or emotional, or anything of the sort (or if it is, someone forgot to tell me). It's supposed to be sexual, pretty much just foreplay at the club. Why is it so popular? Because it gives people a chance to get sexually close to people of the opposite gender (or same, if you happen to swing that way). Also, grinding physically stimulates certain areas (keeping this G-rated), getting the participants turned on, thus increasing the chance that said people will go home together.

Pacion

04-07-2004, 06:46 AM

That "could" be true, if you applied the "dance is the vertical expression of the horizontal desire" saying. I guess MTV/music videos also have a lot to answer for in "today's world". I remember a time when teenagers wanted to dance like Michael Jackson, Madonna, Cindi Lauper :shock: :lol:, Paula Abdul ... even John Travolta had HIS following :lol:

ND, you also mentioned "increasing the chance that said people will go home together" - after a high school dance? :shock: :oops:

Okay, looks like I am going to have spend even less time dancing salsa and more time watching MTV videos so that I can understand this :wink:

pygmalion

04-07-2004, 07:11 AM

Hmm. How to respond to this?

I think there are a few issues being combined here, which, at least in my mind, are separate.

1. Personal standards as regards sexual behavior
2. Personal space and limits
3. Merits (or lack thereof) of grinding as a dance form

We all get to decide how to handle or view all of these, I think.

And btw, going home together? From a high school dance? Never even considered or desired as an option, when I was in high school or long thereafter. Have things really changed that much? I hope not. *shrug*

Sakura

04-07-2004, 08:35 AM

Gotta say, once again, that I agree with SD and ND on their opinions and explanations.

As for the "going home together" remark, ND, correct me if I'm wrong, I think he meant from a club, not a high school dance; but I could be wrong on that. =^_^=

Well, that's all I've got for now, so I'll see you guys later! (This is turning into a really interesting post, so I hope there are some more opinions placed here! :D )

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

(For kicks, a little poll on a certain emoticon might be fun:
Is this banana --> :banana:
A. Grinding
B. Dancing

Heh, a little silly to ask, I know, but maybe someone else with my humour will get a good laugh out of this. :roll: :wink: )

pygmalion

04-07-2004, 08:37 AM

:lol: :lol: :lol: Definitely dancing. A happy dance, if you ask me. 8) :D

Sakura

04-07-2004, 08:43 AM

:lol: :D :lol: I'd be a safe bet with that's, "WOW! I just won the lottery!" dance. But, if you put another banana behind it, it makes one wonder.... =^__^= It's just my random bit of musing for the day -- helps me keep my healthy level of insanity going (as if dance couldn't help with that enough!)! 8) 8)

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

Pacion

04-07-2004, 09:11 AM

Rushing here, just for clarity, I am talking about the teenage interest/perspective of dancing.

I was always interested in learning to "dance". I think I would have had a clip round the ears if I had said I wanted to learn "grinding" :lol: which incidentally, I grew up with anyway, because of the carnival/calypso culture. Even then, there was still partner dancing :idea: which I was going to say is the difference between grinding and dancing but then again, you need a partner to grind with no :wink:

As Shy Dancer said (so as not to confuse her initials of SD with SDsalsaguy :wink: ), for me too, it is "unemotional" unless there is an attraction of some sort with the guy I am dancing with.

pygmalion

04-07-2004, 10:54 AM

I hope some of our teenaged DF members are willing to go out on a limb and answer.

I'm certainly no teenager, but I'm not so old as to have forgotten everything. When I was young, there was a very sexually suggestive popular dance called the freak. Boy, could I do that dance. I didn't learn it because I had any sexual intent at all, nor was I representative of society's moral decay, at least I don't think so. I was a very good girl (still am. Trying to get over that, though. :lol: :wink: ) I learned the dance because it was popular. Plain and simple. No ulterior motives.

Sakura

04-07-2004, 02:43 PM

I was a very good girl (still am. Trying to get over that, though. :lol: :wink: )

:wink: 8) :D Very nice! *laughs*

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

NeoDevin

04-07-2004, 07:39 PM

As for the "going home together" remark, ND, correct me if I'm wrong, I think he meant from a club, not a high school dance; but I could be wrong on that. =^_^=

I was talking about a club, though I do know people who 'go home together' from highschool dances.

I was a very good girl (still am. Trying to get over that, though.

I can help you with that ;)

pygmalion

04-07-2004, 07:48 PM

I was a very good girl (still am. Trying to get over that, though.

I can help you with that ;)

Uhhh. No disrespect, but no you can't. One, I'm old enough to be your ... aunt. Two, my SO would have a serious problem with that.

I think I'll stick with the tattoo and piercing I had planned. LOL. :lol: :lol: 8)

NeoDevin

04-07-2004, 07:57 PM

Should I ask where you're getting pierced? Can you answer while keeping it appropriate for all ages? ;) :lol:

Sakura

04-07-2004, 08:02 PM

Heh, heh, I'm gonna be mean for once and gang up on you with Neo Devin! :wink:

What design for the tatoo and where? 8) :twisted: :wink:

You know I love ya Pygmalion -- you're one of the coolest!

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

pygmalion

04-07-2004, 08:19 PM

LOL!

Tattoos on my right breast, on my left ankle, and in the small of my back. And a navel piercing. Barbell, not hoop or stud. Tame stuff, compared to some. LOL. :wink: :lol: :lol:

Sakura

04-07-2004, 08:33 PM

*grins* You wild thing, you! :lol: :D If it'll make you feel better, on the "getting over being a good girl" thing, my mum would kill me if I did that! (Forgetting the fact that I'm deathly afraid of needles for a moment... :roll: )

What designs for the tattoos? (I wanna ask before Neo Devin does! :twisted: )

Have fun with that!

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

pygmalion

04-07-2004, 08:37 PM

Being bad is fun! A rose for one, a skull or a snake for one, and not yet decided for the third. (I'm considering a scorpion, even though I'm an aries.) What a hoot!

And, btw, tattoos are a good reason to move away from home. Moms never agree. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sakura

04-07-2004, 08:41 PM

Go with the Snake!! =^__^= I happen to love my scaled friends. (I got to hold a 7-8 ft. albino burmese python on my band trip 2 weeks ago for the first time in my life, and I was soooooo happy! {Off topic I know, but I thought I'd share the love! =^_~=}) Or you could go with a snake entwined around the skull (or going through it, if that be your style...)
My personal preference for the third would be a lovely Eastern-style Dragon, but I know not everyone shares my loves! 8) I like the choice for a rose -- with thorns or just the flower?

Heh, this is an interesting subject, very fun, so thanks for sharing with me! :wink:

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

danceguy

04-07-2004, 10:13 PM

I'm considering a scorpion

YES! YES! YES! GO FOR THE SCORPION! :banana: :bouncy: :P

This reminds me of a very funny story. About 5 years ago or so I was at a party and met this charming Japanese exchange student, and we started talking up a storm. Turns out she was into scorpions as well, and then she proceeds to show me her scorpion tattoos...all of which where on her belly and above her *ahem* swimsuit line. Not little ones either, but huge, dark beautiful scorpions...and while I really don't like tattoos...I'm thinking I've just met my dream girl. Hubba hubba and so on and so forth! :D :P :D

I end up talking with her for so long that some of my friends get mad at me for ignoring them...but I'm so busy flirting, whoops I mean chatting with this beauty and about to ask her out...when I find out that not only is she engaged...but the guy she is going to marry is one of my good friends who had been wanting to introduce me to his Japanese fiancee for some time! :doh:

Long story short, I finally said "well I finally got to meet you. Nice tattoos by the way."

Such is life eh? :D ;) :P

SG

Genesius Redux

04-07-2004, 10:19 PM

PS- To Genesius Redux: "Look, stange women, lying in ponds, distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government!" *happy sigh* I love Dennis: even if he does bring class into it. =^___^= (I saw your posts on handling a wild Salsera, and I couldn't resist bringing up a quote to a fellow Python fan. :D )

Supreme executive authority derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcicle aquatic ceremony. You can't wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you; I mean, if I went around saying I was an emperor because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, people would put me away....

:wink:

Genesius Redux

04-07-2004, 10:26 PM

All the scandal over the sexuality of grinding! :lol: If any of these kids ever discovered tango--as one of my dance friends put it recently, "Having fun with your clothes on!"

:wink: :lol:

Ashley

04-07-2004, 10:29 PM

Sagitta

04-07-2004, 11:00 PM

Welcome to df Ashley!! Ballroom and club dancing are two completely different animals, so I can see how one can be much better then one then another. But, there is club dancing and club grinding. For instance, I do latin club dancing... :wink: :)

delamusica

04-08-2004, 12:07 AM

we owe it to those new members who are struggling into the light to vanquish the forces of alienation and corporate greed, and help set free their immortal souls.

Just make sure not to send them to a chain studio . . .

delamusica

04-08-2004, 12:20 AM

I am a ballroom and latin dancer, and I also go to clubs and grind with crowds of people dancing by themselves . . . and I love it. To me it's not at all empty - there's a connection between you and the music and the beat and the feeling of people everywhere around you. You can say that it requires no effort and discipline and call that a bad thing, but I really feel good being able to let go of all that work for a couple of hours and just let my body move with the deep thump of the bass without worrying about whether I'm on a heel or a toe or my leg is straight or my arm line is nice. It's not dancing at it's emptiest, but dancing at its most primal and basic. It's not ballroom, and it never will be - but it's no better or worse or more or less valuable to the people who do it. I know many people who find ballroom too strict and formal who just die to go to the clubs and grind - exactly in the same way that we here couldn't dream of life without our own dancing. Forgive my rant, but as a 20yr old DF member I feel like somebody's got to defend the dancing that most of my generation does! :)

delamusica

04-08-2004, 12:32 AM

sorry to add more, but i was just re-reading some earlier posts and couldn't keep my trap shut . . . :)

why do you all think that grinding just gets you ready to go home with someone?? Do you go home with people after an Argentine tango or a bolero or rumba??

If you claim to be able to enjoy the musical connection and pure soulful dancing of ballroom, instead of thinking of it as a series of movements, then why couldn't the same apply to grinding? Just because you enjoy the music and the dance and maybe even whoever you're dancing with doesn't mean that you're going to sleep with them just because the dance you did happened to have been grinding . . .

Has anyone else gone back and read the earlier responses to this? I'm really suprised to hear you all be so judgmental on this thread! :(

cocodrilo

04-08-2004, 03:08 AM

For anyone wanting a *******er course on grinding, go out and rent the movies "Sweet Charity" or "Cabaret". Classic grinding flicks!

Pacion

04-08-2004, 03:13 AM

Thanks for responding delamusica. Just a quick note in response as I am doing this when I shouldn't :shock: but I don't believe we mean to be "judgemental", at least, that was not my intention.

My intention was to try and understand WHY grinding instead of dancing. If you look back at my earlier posts, I do say that when I was younger, I wanted dance lessons, not grinding lessons. :? everyone seemed to want to dance like Michael Jackons/John Travolta and that perhaps today's dance videos have something to do with it?

At the end of the day, it is personal choice, some people like it, some people don't - some people get a spark and others won't (and no, I didn't mean to make that rhyme either :wink: ).

You say that you enjoy it because it is "free" and you don't have to think about arm/foot positions. That's cool. When I am out at a salsa venue, I don't always want to be thinking "CBL, triple spin, copa, double back flip". :lol: I want to be able to "groove" to the music sometimes too. There is a guy that I really, really, REALLY enjoy dancing with :bouncy: and with certain songs, I just want to cling on to his neck rather than go through the "Magnificent Seven" choreography :wink: . So, I can understand that. But, are we grinding? No.

Oh yes, and as far as the "you grind with me, you go home with me" - in my day :lol: (ouch! Pygmalion! :lol: ) that was the implication - not that it always happened that way. Things are a bit different, socially, culturally and generation wise.

Do you see where I am coming from?

squirrel

04-08-2004, 03:36 AM

:)) I have to confess that I love grinding with a guy I'm attracted to and usually I do it with the guy I came with (and gonna go home with).
Of course grinding with ANY OTHER GUY is disgusting to me... with all the others I prefer dancing!

cocodrilo

04-08-2004, 06:45 AM

Great, squirrel!
That makes total sense!

Genesius Redux

04-08-2004, 09:52 AM

Genesius,
I feel that your first post completely hit the nail on the head. Sometimes, I want to go club dancing and then I'm reminded of what it's like...gulp. Grinding seems so...empty to me. I'm not talking about classiness, or the difference between sexuality and sensuality, but simply the feeling behind what's going on. And there's nothing there. To me, a group of grinding people seems like a bunch of empty people.

Whenever I see someone who's *good* at club dancing, I'm jealous, and I want to drag them off the floor and say "go do some real dancing!"

Oddly, I am much much better at ballroom than I am at club dancing, even at the basic grinding level.

Hey Ashley! Much belated welcome!

I get the same feeling in the clubs that I get when I'm in a crowded mall--this kind of George A. Romero-beginning-to-get-creeped-out feeling. :shock:

Oddly, I never feel like I need to relax after dancing ballroom--even if I am working on technical stuff. But if I feel I've really been dancing a lot and need a break in general, I'll go to a bookstore, or walk my dog, or go to a pizza parlor, or to the beach! 8)

Cheers,

Genesius

P.S. I don't mean to be judgemental when I imply the scene at the clubs as I see it is redolent of zombie movies--just an impression! :wink:

P.P.S. Maybe DF needs to sponsor it's own zombie movie--"Dance of the Dead." The zombies invade a local salsa club. Or--better yet! This big old franchise-conglomerate studio has an outbreak of zombie dancers and the evil owner/managers try to keep it quiet until it's too late....

P.P.P.S. On the other hand, maybe a better idea for the chain studio would be like "The Stepford Dancers."

Just a few early morning ruminations....

Sakura

04-08-2004, 11:12 AM

To delamusica, I'm agreeing here with Pacion: I don't think any of us meant to be judgemental! :shock: :( I think we just all put our opinion out on it, and those who saw the thread first were more against grinding than not.
It's great to have your input though! Nice to see another point of view on this. =^_^= :roll: :wink:

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

PS-

PS- To Genesius Redux: "Look, stange women, lying in ponds, distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government!" *happy sigh* I love Dennis: even if he does bring class into it. =^___^= (I saw your posts on handling a wild Salsera, and I couldn't resist bringing up a quote to a fellow Python fan. :D )

Supreme executive authority derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcicle aquatic ceremony. You can't wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you; I mean, if I went around saying I was an emperor because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, people would put me away....

:wink:

--Shut up, will you! Shut up!
-Ah! Now we see the violence inherent in the system!
--Shut up!
-Help, help, I'm bein' repressed!
--Bloodypeasant!
-Oooooh! Did you hear that!? What a give-away.
--Come on, Patsy.
-Did you seem him repressing me, then? That's what I've been on about! ...

*exit to forest scene* :D

pygmalion

04-08-2004, 11:55 AM

No offense here, folks, but not meaning to be judgmental and not being judgmental are two different things. delamusica made a valid observation, I think. In this thread, it has been said that grinding "isn't dancing," that it's "empty," that it makes it more likely the people will go home together, that people who engage in it should be exposed to real dancing, and so on.

How is that not judgmental? Please.

Like my old youth minister used to say, "if you're going to be wrong, be LOUD and wrong." Meaning, if you're going to be judgmental, be proud to be judgmental. We all make judgments about things, good or bad. We have those choices to make.

What bothered me about this thread, similarly to delamusica, I guess, is that the vast majority of people who responded, made those judgments not just for themselves. The overriding feeling I got from many of the responses here was, "Grinding is immoral, it's unfeeling, and I wouldn't do it. Therefore it's not really dancing and we have to save the unsuspecting younguns from themselves by introducing them to real dancing. arrgh! :evil:

Come on folks. Loosen up. Okay. If you don't like grinding, nobody's going to make you do it. But that doesn't make people who do it and/or enjoy it any less moral or enlightened than the people who abstain.

Dare I say it again? To each his own.

Christina75

04-08-2004, 12:34 PM

A couple of years ago, I took both my Honors World Lit classes to a guest night at the studio where I was dancing.
Genesius

How did I end up with all the lame teachers and professors? :|

Christina

Genesius Redux

04-08-2004, 03:10 PM

A couple of years ago, I took both my Honors World Lit classes to a guest night at the studio where I was dancing.
Genesius

How did I end up with all the lame teachers and professors? :|

Christina

Believe me, Christina, I had ulterior motives as well. We got free lessons for every guest. By that time, I was heartily sick of the management at the studio and my teacher was beginning to feel the same way. So we decided to stick it to them. I funded an entire theatre arts routine from guest lessons--and the management was not happy about it. But it delighted us no end to do it.

Since that time, the studio has tightened up its definitions on what counts as a guest--and all of my friends, teachers and students alike, have left for greener pastures.

But then, I'm not a big fan of management, money, or 'ministration. So power to the people! We shall overcome!

Cheers,

Genesius

Genesius Redux

04-08-2004, 04:10 PM

What bothered me about this thread, similarly to delamusica, I guess, is that the vast majority of people who responded, made those judgments not just for themselves. The overriding feeling I got from many of the responses here was, "Grinding is immoral, it's unfeeling, and I wouldn't do it. Therefore it's not really dancing and we have to save the unsuspecting younguns from themselves by introducing them to real dancing. arrgh! :evil:

Come on folks. Loosen up. Okay. If you don't like grinding, nobody's going to make you do it. But that doesn't make people who do it and/or enjoy it any less moral or enlightened than the people who abstain.

Dare I say it again? To each his own.

Well, an historic moment, Pygmalion. For the first time since I've begun posting I think we see things differently.

Actually the explosion of opinions on this thread is exactly what I found interesting--far from bothering me, this thread has been one of the most engaging that I've seen lately.

I think everyone who has been posting on this thread has been willing and interested to lay their perspective fully out. But I don't think there's been the single overriding discourse you suggest. To review the comments I've found:

Pacion opens with a lament about what's all this about grinding, whatever happened to dancing?

ND says it's all about sex, and to some extent promotes physical contact of an unsublimated kind.

What's fascinating is that three female dancers, all from more or less different perspectives, disagree with ND.

ShyDancer says that no doubt it's meant to be sexually expressive, but it fails. She dislikes what she sees in the clubs because she feels what she sees is not classy--and connects that to what she sees as an absence of connection between partners.

Both Ashley and S Kitty also disagree, commenting on their own feelings of the "emptiness" of the club scene. Interestingly, not claiming its sexual nature, but pointing to what they perceive as an absence of emotion.

Genesius, predictably, comes in with an intemperate, needlessly complicated rant on the forces of corporate culture and its mind-numbing effects on the victims caught within its web in an over-the-top gambit to get people to talk more. He later digresses on Monty Python.

Finally delamusica speaks up for the club scene, saying that it's nice after spending so much time on the technical details of dancing to kick back and do something that's just a physical release.

So what we have is:

Pacion--whatever happened to skilled partner dancing
ND--it's all about sex
ShyDancer--it's supposed to be about sex, but it fails
S Kitty and Ashley--the clubs seem empty and devoid of feeling
delamusica--nice to kick back and release
Genesius--What did he say? I don't get it, hey GR could you say that again?

I can't find any post that comments on the morality of grinding. And the other thing that I would say is that I believe I wrote about saving kids from the evils of an unholy corporate alliance between the music and liquor industry bent on turning them into consumer drones, and not saving them "from themselves." I do think it's interesting that you got this from your reading of the thread, so that I might add your own perspective, Pygmalion, to the others I've seen. I could be wrong, but:

Pygmalion--it's all about escaping judgement, feeling included

So my feeling is that this has been a remarkably interesting thread, from the point of view of a culture analysis. And what makes it remarkable, I think, or what makes it possible, is that a bunch of people have felt free to write what they actually think rather than editing themselves out of fear of offending each other. That, to me, is a gesture of trust--when people can throw their different perspectives into the pot, when they feel safe to do it. You know then that you have genuine friendships developing.

Not just on the Internet, but all over--and teaching at a university it is my sad fate to watch it happen even there--people don't tell others what they actually think because they don't want to "offend" someone else. Quite a departure from the principles of free press, and a free market of ideas, that underwrite the ideology of a democratic community. It seems to me that the alternative to freely sharing perspectives is the privatization of all belief, not just religious and political, but social and cultural as well. In a way, this is exactly what I dislike when I observe the culture of the clubs; I don't have any problem when I see a conglomerate of people naked and partying it up during Mardi Gras, let's say. But when I see the whole thing captured by a soulless corporate-produced industry of techno-music, yes I do begin to see a culture in decline. (Notice that I haven't said anything about the individual participant, either from a social, moral, or political perspective--I'm looking at culture from the macro-perspective and asking what I consider to be the pertinent questions--who is making money on this and at what cost to the consumers?)

The beauty of this, however, is I throw that out there fully expecting that members like delamusica are going to come back and say, "Culture in decline? Soulless techno-music? Aw, come on...What you really see is...."

After all, as the Vultures say in The Jungle Book, "that's what friends are for!"

Well look what you did, Pygmalion. You made me be serious--when you know I prefer to dress my characteristic sobriety in motley! I'm gonna have to stop at the BP and get me a pack of Ho Hos before I can return to my Democritan self.

Affectionately,

Genesius

P.S. Tattoo--I think you should get a daisy, a smurf, or a sun with a happy face. Have you ever seen Full Metal Jacket? "Sir! I think he was commenting on the dual nature of man. Sir!" :wink:

pygmalion

04-08-2004, 05:44 PM

Pygmalion--it's all about escaping judgement, feeling included

Umm. Actually, I haven't yet given my take on the causes and effects of grinding, at all. Other than a brief reference to my own participation in the "grinding" equivalent of my pre-teen days, I haven't given a clue, unless it was an unintentional one. My intent, up to this point, has been to defend the rights of each person to grind or not to grind, as they choose. I was quite tempted to get into a sidebar discussion regarding the crass commercialism you perceive in the dance and rap music businesses, btw. Sorely tempted. :wink: LOL.

P.S. Tattoo--I think you should get a daisy, a smurf, or a sun with a happy face. Have you ever seen Full Metal Jacket? "Sir! I think he was commenting on the dual nature of man. Sir!" :wink:

I appreciate the tattoo suggestions, and will keep a running log. Needless to say, I'll be back with full, gory reports of my whole tattooing process.

And no, I haven't seen Full Metal Jacket. Perhaps I should. You're not the first person who has recommended it to me. Hmm. 8)

delamusica

04-08-2004, 06:10 PM

I've seen a few of you comment on how techno and rap and clubs are all about making money - but would any of you step up and say that ballroom studios, teachers, and dance professionals aren't? Sure they love dancing and music, but so do djs and mcs and "grinders." They just use a different forum for their expression. I really don't get why you all think that club dancing and rap and techno music are so much more commercially-driven than ballroom dancing and latin/ballroom music are. I've yet to EVER see anyone shell out any money to learn to grind, versus the $60-$100/hr that I've seen people spend on ballroom lessons. and even if we're not talking about just lessons but doing it socially - let's see . . . average club-goer pays $5-10 cover plus let's just say $10-20 on drinks . . . average ballroom dancer pays $20-60/hr for several weeks of lessons before hitting the floor, and then has to pay around $15 to get in, and in many places can spend an equal amount on drinks or food or whatever, if they so choose. Most rap or techno cds cost around $13-15, while I've seen many ballroom and latin collections at around $20-25 . . . and let's not even get started on dress - great $50 outfit for the club versus $500 gown for the ball/competition . . .

does anybody still think that club culture is more commercially driven than the ballroom world?

pygmalion

04-08-2004, 06:18 PM

Well said, delamusica. 8) :notworth:

delamusica

04-08-2004, 06:24 PM

thanks. :)

Sakura

04-08-2004, 06:25 PM

does anybody still think that club culture is more commercially driven than the ballroom world?

While I'd say you just drove a strong point in on that our beloved Dance is rather expensive, and we may be slightly psychologically imbalanced to go along with it ( :D ), Ballroom and Latin dance is not marketed to millions of people everyday on the t.v. and radio. While that $13-15 techno or rap CD may be cheaper than your said $20-25 CD for dance, think about how many more people are driven through the media devices to go buy that techno or rap CD than the non-existent commercial pushes for the dance CD. As far as the outfits go, it's going to be an obvious fact that the rap and techno is going to be played in most clubs, so a light, easy to move in outfit is going to be needed for that. For a dance competition (though I've never been to one), it's my understanding that it's about show and elegance, so the outfit will be in a highly crafted design, thus inflating the price (especially because not many people are going to go out and buy them).
So to me, it is that the rap, techno, club scene, etc. is more commercally (argh, sp?) driven.
*shrugs* But, that's only my humble, maybe shortsighted opinion... :) Keep up your opinions! I enjoy reading them, and I hope mine doesn't seem like a 'RAWR! I'm out to get you!' point of view. Until next time! *waves*

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

jon

04-08-2004, 06:34 PM

does anybody still think that club culture is more commercially driven than the ballroom world?

There is clearly more money, overall, flowing in the club culture - if ballroom has that wide appeal, club owners would be offering it(*).

Everybody wants to make a living but I doubt that either many ballroom teachers, or many club owners, are making a fortune.

(*) Several years ago a fancy ballroom club opened up in Raleigh. Not a studio, a real club with a bar, multiple dance floors, fancy sound system, etc. Got about 100 people the first night and rapidly died off.

A month later they reopened as a hip-hop club and got 1,000 people the first night, and a much more sustainable clientele thereafter (admittedly they did have to add metal detectors and bouncers too :-)).

delamusica

04-08-2004, 06:36 PM

don't worry - i'm not one to take offense at a healthy debate. :)

As far as the outfits go, it's going to be an obvious fact that the rap and techno is going to be played in most clubs, so a light, easy to move in outfit is going to be needed for that. For a dance competition (though I've never been to one), it's my understanding that it's about show and elegance, so the outfit will be in a highly crafted design, thus inflating the price (especially because not many people are going to go out and buy them).

if you think clubbing is not about show, then you've got to tell me what clubs it is you've been going to . . .

and why can't you be elegant and put on a good show in light and easy-moving clothing? for a pro showcase maybe all the glitz makes sense, but the number of bronze dancers pushed by their teachers to buy several-thousand dollar gowns just to fit in with the people they're dancing with is absurd!

and as for it being more expensive because fewer people want to do it, it's sort of a chicken and egg question . . . if it was less expensive, maybe more people would do it, if more people did it, it might get less expensive (although if they were attracting people at their current prices, i seriously doubt that they'd drop the rates out of goodwill)

pygmalion

04-08-2004, 06:37 PM

Ugh! I'm trying so hard to keep my opinions to myself and just facilitate the discussion (which, alas, is what moderators do LOL). I'll just throw out a question for anyone who cares to ponder. Does commercial orientation make an industry, or an art form, for that matter, bad or wrong?

delamusica

04-08-2004, 06:46 PM

btw - i've never heard anyone say that they couldn't dance at a club because it was too expensive to learn how - how often do we on this site gripe about the cost of lessons? who can blame the masses for being more attracted to what's most accesible to them?

in fact, most of my friends who have seen me dance ("real dancing") have been more than eager to learn, but were deterred at the price.

and here's chicken-and-egg topic number two: age. i'm one of only a handful of people (all of whom are friends of mine from high school) in the state who ballroom dance are anywhere near my age. Thus, my friends who I now introduce to ballroom dance are always sort of alienated at the idea of hanging out with people who for the most part are older than our parents, some near the age of our grandparents. No offense at all to any of you who may fall into this age category, but seriously - when you were a young twenty-something, were you into spending your friday/saturday nights at a ballroom studio with a bunch of married 50-60-somethings? It's fun for those of us who are really into the dancing and have gotten the chance to make friends with some of these wonderful grown-ups :), but it's hard to get people into it.

I'll just say this - it's way easier to get my friends to a dance lesson than my parents to a hip-hop club. :lol:

delamusica

04-08-2004, 07:01 PM

Does commercial orientation make an industry, or an art form, for that matter, bad or wrong?

It's only natural that things that make money are capitalized on by the people running them, but it's definitely a two-sided coin.

Think about your local Arthur Murray studio versus your local independent studio. (no offense to anyone who dances there - it's just the first example of a chain studio that came to mind):

(In my experience), the independent studio will emphasize individual skill, personal goals, and technique and expression, whereas the Arthur Murray studio will teach people a lot of steps and get them to come to social parties and enjoy themselves.

One is more about the art, the other about getting the idea out to many people and letting them have fun with it. The chain studio's students will likely never be the artists of the form that the independent studio produces, but in most cases that level of artistry is not something that they aspire to.

Just like rap used to be an underground art form, and still is to many people and artists that refuse to join the commercial mainstream, but now is oftentimes seen as just the overproduced stuff of MTV.

Back to the good old "to each his own," - it's not a matter of right and wrong but what you want to get out of it.

For example, I am a classical musician. I know that Britney Spears' songs are not good music or good art - but I can still admit that her songs are sometimes catchy and fun. When I'm looking for art in music i listen to Brahms, and when I'm looking for fun in music I listen to Outkast. (not that art can't be fun and vice versa, but just see the idea here?)

When I want to dance for fun, I go to a club and grind. Be it commercialised or overproduced or empty or otherwise, it's fun. I'm not looking for a meaningful experience, just a pure and simple good time. So I'm not a member of the elite underground club-dance-as-pure-art scene (and believe me, there is one) - but i still really enjoy the overproccessed version of it that is accesible to me.

jon

04-08-2004, 07:14 PM

Does commercial orientation make an industry, or an art form, for that matter, bad or wrong?

No. It results in art that caters to large audiences, and tends to result in self-censorship and repetition. Take TV, for example. While I very much enjoy Buffy and Get Smart! and M*A*S*H, they are not going to be well known a century from now, and they don't make me think or teach me anything I didn't know already. Just entertainment, albeit more passive entertainment than dancing.

NeoDevin

04-08-2004, 07:22 PM

delamusica

04-08-2004, 07:25 PM

:roll: :lol:

delamusica

04-08-2004, 07:30 PM

I feel like I've gotten somewhat off-topic in my rants these last few times. Watching over my shoulder for the boss has apparently distracted me . . . my apologies :)

pygmalion

04-08-2004, 07:31 PM

I know that Britney Spears' songs are not good music or good art - but I can still admit that her songs are sometimes catchy and fun.

Don't forget her videos ;) (when I read this, her song "Stronger" was playing... oh what I wouldn't give to be a chair :lol: :twisted: )

Good point, Devin. There is just a tad of excessive intellectualizing going on here. Let's keep it real. LOL.

delamusica

04-08-2004, 07:32 PM

NeoDevin

04-08-2004, 07:33 PM

SDsalsaguy

04-08-2004, 07:36 PM

Ballroom and Latin dance is not marketed to millions of people everyday on the t.v. and radio.

Why not? I'm not being argumentative this time, really! :) - does anybody have any thoughts on why this is?
Because it costs money to market SK. Those with the $ would need to feel that their was a potential return on such an investment...

pygmalion

04-08-2004, 07:37 PM

I like argumentative, personally. 8) And this is my real opinion. I think, in the US, there are at least two reasons why, probably more. I think there's a perception that ballroom dance is elitist, and a stereotype that ballroom dancers are wealthy, older people. Those perceptions, IMHO, often become self-fulfilling prophecies.

delamusica

04-08-2004, 07:44 PM

Genesius Redux

04-08-2004, 07:47 PM

Thing about Britney--she'll never be Madonna. Perfect example of the way a countercultural revolution gets mass produced in commodity form. But I'm with Duke Ellington by way of Peter Schikele on the music thing--it it sounds good, it's good. (BTW, crass and street-raised as I am, while my waltz is looking not too bad these days, I've never acquired a taste for Brahms or caviar. Still tastes like Finding Nemo to me)

No, it's not the commercial side of ballroom that I would say differentiates it from club culture. Like S Kitty and Jon, I'd emphasize its mass audience.

But now I need to know, delamusica--what is the club scene about? If it's not about sex, and it's not about eternally unconsummated self-consumption, what is it about? It's all just about simple fun just begs the question--what's fun about it? If it were all about sex, you could say, "It's fun to go out there and be sexy with people." What do you see when you go clubbing? A free space? Drop the other shoe and give us your full cultural analysis!

Me, I'm sticking with my zombie drug idea. Or the new opiate of the masses! But my Italian heritage intervenes here when you ask, shouldn't people be allowed to make a living? Why yes, of course, says I. "After all, we are not communists."

With deference to the late Mr. Puzo,

Genesius :wink:

delamusica

04-08-2004, 07:58 PM

I guess I don't really think that club culture is about any one thing. To some it's all about dancing and feeling the music, to some it's all about being sexy, to some people enjoy being close to and surrounded by strangers, to others it could be their favorite music, their friends go there, or any other reason one could come up with. People enjoy it for all sorts of different reasons, just like ballroom or latin or swing or salsa. When I say "it's not about that!" - i guess I mean more of "it's not just that!" Most of these anti-clubbing/grinding posts really seem to oversimplify the whole thing in my eyes. What is salsa about? What is ballroom about? If i were to say that salsa clubs were full of people just trying to look sexy, show off, and pick up girls/guys, everyone here who lives and breathes salsa would bite my head off - but from an outsiders perspective, I sure wouldn't seem wrong - that's what I feel like a lot of these posts could be compared to. Is this making any sense/answering your question?

delamusica

04-08-2004, 08:01 PM

But my Italian heritage intervenes here when you ask, shouldn't people be allowed to make a living? Why yes, of course, says I. "After all, we are not communists."

With deference to the late Mr. Puzo,

Genesius :wink:

And I sit here, (in my t-shirt reading "everybody loves an italian girl!"), reading your response and enjoying your Puzo reference. :)

pygmalion

04-08-2004, 08:04 PM

Just to play devil's advocate a bit (as if I haven't done enough of that already LOL,) I have a couple more questions.

If club dancing is the opiate of the masses, could not ballroom dancing be viewed as an opiate as well, just with a different, smaller, target group?

Could not one's characterization of club dancing/grinding be as much representative of generational differences as much as artistic or aesthetic standards?

Go to the mattresses, I say. :wink: :lol:

And as far as promotion of ballroom, I agree with SD. People will spend the resources to market ballroom dance widely only when they perceive that there will be a good return on their investment.

Genesius Redux

04-08-2004, 08:10 PM

But it shouldn't cost more money to market dance than to market any other product - and good advertising should generate $ in return . . .

As for the impressions of it being old and elitist, how do you change those impressions other than by marketing it differently?

I just wonder why those in charge of the money in dance don't see a reason to advertise other than in the phone book - commercial advertisement is the way that every other buisness attracts its consumers and develops its image, isn't it?

Oh, I'm with delamusica on this one. It's all about marketing. But you'd need a visionary studio to do it. And you'd need well-established dance instructors willing to take a little hit on their incomes to reach a larger and younger market.

Dance instructors without a very well-established income are concerned with just earning a living--and the reality is that you need to establish your clientele in a population that has at least $5000 a year that they can drop on dance. Otherwise, you can't make a living.

What that means in practice is that if you're selling dance lessons, you've got to be looking at people with incomes of $50K and more, probably twice that in places like NY and LA. If you have a client base like that, then you can afford to stretch into the schools, do the pro bono work. You try to get a simple dance program in the schools as a PE elective. Maybe it's all about swing. You spend most of your time with the dance and exercises in the dance, but you also deal with dance history, so your students learn about the growth and evolution of the form. You encourage the school to then sponsor swing classes, you do demonstrations and exhibitions. You get somebody to do your "Swingers don't Smack" ads. That's how you'll promote it.

But look at the realities--someone teaching this program in the schools would probably have to spend at least 6 hours a week at the school, all times that can take away from other clients. In those 6 hours alone, the instructor could be making $490 gross for that week. That's almost $2000 per month in lost income. Will the school pick that up?

You try and go to a high school principle and say, "Gee, let's hire someone to teach one dance class for the year and no other responsibilities. We'll pay her $16,000."

More likely, if you get anything, it will be, "Well, okay, I guess we can try it as an elective. I guess we can afford to pay someone $1,000 per quarter."

Someone does that for a year at a school, they're taking a hit of $12,000 in their annual salary. A better option is to find someone already working there, either in PE or in the drama/dance program (if the school has one), who knows ballroom and is willing to give it a go.

It's all about taking it to the high schools and junior high schools. But it's so much easier to market to the clients who have always been marketed to. That's why I say you need a studio owner with real vision and a bunch of established instructors who are willing to get behind an idea.

pygmalion

04-08-2004, 08:15 PM

I just wonder why those in charge of the money in dance don't see a reason to advertise other than in the phone book - commercial advertisement is the way that every other buisness attracts its consumers and develops its image, isn't it?

The franchise studio I was affiliated with did advertise in the yellow pages, yes. But they spent the bulk of their advertising budget on incentives to existing students, such as comp lessons for referring their friends. Word of mouth advertising seemed to work best for them. That, and an occasional newspaper ad.

Genesius Redux

04-08-2004, 08:53 PM

If i were to say that salsa clubs were full of people just trying to look sexy, show off, and pick up girls/guys, everyone here who lives and breathes salsa would bite my head off - but from an outsiders perspective, I sure wouldn't seem wrong - that's what I feel like a lot of these posts could be compared to. Is this making any sense/answering your question?

It does make sense--and I don't think a cultural phenomenon needs to be "about" one thing only. But in the combination of elements a hegemonic pattern can emerge. And although you make reference to salsa to show an oversimplified view, I don't think that it's wrong as an analysis of the culture of the salsa club. I would say it's not so much oversimplified as it is incomplete--it doesn't yet comment on the ways that people show off and try to look sexy that are specific to salsa. If you were to write the history of the salsa scene, tracing it back all the way to the rumba that developed on the islands in the 17th century, you'd probably argue that the dance was quite explicitly about sexuality and courtship. Does that mean that every time two people dance it's just a metaphor for sex? No--but not because it's not about sex. Rather because courtship rituals are not quite so simple.

I actually thought your first idea was the most arresting, though you never came back to it. You enjoyed going out to the clubs after spending so much time in the technical precision of ballroom, and you liked just letting it all go loose and not having to worry about whether you were on a heel or a toe. That, to me, suggested you were talking about the club scene as a free space--a confined but unregulated area, or maybe an area that develops its own rules from within, rather than a bunch of rules that are imposed from without.

Well, that's all for me right now--the fact that all of this discussion is way more engaging than anything I get from my colleagues at the university on a daily basis is both encouraging and sad, isn't it?

See ya later, my brothers and sisters!

Leave the gun, take the cannolis,

Genesius

delamusica

04-08-2004, 10:23 PM

i didn't go back to it because i tend to ramble . . . :) true fact - for me, the best part about club dancing is that i don't have to struggle to control my body the way i do in ballroom, and can just let go and dance.

but about the advertising, i was thinking more along the lines of why you never see a tv ad or hear a radio ad for a dance studio? i hear and see ads for local buisnesses all the time - it just dawned on me as strange that dance studios don't seem to take advantage of the media to encourage people to dance, but rather wait for their clients to happen to think or hear about dance, and then look them up.

squirrel

04-09-2004, 03:17 AM

Interesting pattern of discussion... still, I do not really get the point of this discussion... some say it's not about 'being judgmental', others say 'let's be judgmental - we have a right to', then we discuss about rap an dhip hop and Brahms and ballroom and street dance... hmmm.... it seems all the participants are using 'any and every weapons' they have to prove they are right...
I went to the club last night to have my fix... there was this girl, a friend of mine, who is not a teenager (she's gonna be 28 this year)... but she doesn't show it! She's attractive and beautiful and intelligent (yes, there are such girls!)... she was wearing a skimpy outfit 'cause on previous occasions she had noticed the guys were inviting her more the 'less clothing' she wore...she wants to dance, and yes she grinds... BUT: she knows she wouldn't dance as much if she didn't! Let's be honest, she's not the best dancer in the club! And she cannot crave for more than 1 dance with 'the best leaders'... but she gets more dancing than many girls who are far better followers, including myself!
I used the same method, about 2-3 years ago, to get guys dance with me...
And I wonder... is it wrong? I don't think so...
I'm sorry, guys and gals, I don't want to offend anybody (please excuse me if I have or will), but I noticed that most of you have an issue with what might be interpreted as 'sexual... harrasement' (just for want of a better term). What I mean is I don't get offended when guys are hitting on me hard in a club... unless they become a nuisance... or nasty... but otherwise, it means I'm attractive and it's only natural for them to try...
I don't go out to pick up or get picked up... but I think it's only natural for men and women, congregating in the same place, to get involved! I'm hanging out only in Salsa-related places... how else am I supposed to find a partner?
Hope I made some sense... :))

Sagitta

04-09-2004, 06:47 AM

That's the thing about df!! Lots of different opinions based on a wide spectrum of personal experiences. Sexy can be about having sex, but doesn't have to be. I like sexy/sensual dancing and sex is the furthest thing from my mind. Do some people get mislead? Yes, and I'm getting better at recognizing those who do, and not dancing that way with them. I like dancing to what the music is telling me. You put a rhumba/bachata on and these are romantic dances...

Will people dance more with those who are attractive? Yes, they will. Is it wrong? There may be moral /ethical issues for some, but who doesn't want to dance with someone who is attractive and looks good. If I look at two ladies, one in jeans and T-shirt and the other in a fine dress my eyes would be naturally attracted to the one who is dressed up, over the one who isn't. And that's half the battle, ain't it? To attract a person's attention.

Will leaders want to ask good dancers more then those who aren't as great? Yes!

Is there flirting going on? Yup!! I'm guilty about that, big time!!!

Personally, I try to ask a variety of people, and don't restrict myself to only those who are good dancers or who are dressed up in finery. There are certain people I will ask every night because I know that they want to dance, aren't very good, and don't get asked that much. How much I do it will depend on the event. For instance, at the local socials I will do it a lot, and more for mix dances then latin, and even less for the weekly latin dances. I do want to enjoy myself and that involves getting a certain amount of dances with good dancers. :wink:

And back to the topic of grinding vs dancing....could be a generation thing... but there are times when I'm just in a mood open to grinding and others when I'm not. Both serve their purposes.

pygmalion

04-09-2004, 07:00 AM

Interesting pattern of discussion... still, I do not really get the point of this discussion... some say it's not about 'being judgmental', others say 'let's be judgmental - we have a right to', then we discuss about rap an dhip hop and Brahms and ballroom and street dance... hmmm.... it seems all the participants are using 'any and every weapons' they have to prove they are right...

Guilty. I think the original intent of this thread was to ask the question,"why do young people today seem so focused on learning to grind, rather than learn other, more organized forms of partner dance?"

And then the thread went off many a directions, not all of them actually answering the question. The enjoyment of playing with language and debate got in the way, a bit, I think. I do think quite a few people here have addressed their views pretty well, though.

That said, I've played enough. Here's my view. Young people today grind because that's the dance style that's popular. Some also dance for release, or for potentially sexual connections with other people, or just for fun. But if this were 1950, they'd be giving the same reasons and dancing to totally different music, and in different dance styles, most likely early Rock and Roll.

Personally, I think grinding is just as valid a form of dance as any other. And it predates many of the ballroom dances quite a bit, as it is an integral part of some traditional African and societies influenced by the African diaspora.

People get to pick what dances they like, grinding or any other, in my view.

I, personally, do ballroom, Latin, salsa, some country dances, lines dances, African-American traditional dances, and grinding. And I enjoy them all, in different ways, but equally. And I'm no teenager.

How's that for direct? :D 8)

SDsalsaguy

04-09-2004, 10:35 AM

How's that for direct? :D 8)
Ummm... direct? :wink: :lol:

pygmalion

04-09-2004, 10:58 AM

Hey. What can I say? Every once in a blue moon I have to let the moderator persona go and say what I think. *shrug*

SDsalsaguy

04-09-2004, 12:00 PM

Don't forget that you have an ace up your sleeve Jenn... (shhhh) ...you're not the moderator for this forum... so have fun! :wink:

Sakura

04-09-2004, 12:19 PM

:shock: :shock: I don't get to check my mail for a day, and this topic increases by one more page! I go to sleep, and by this morning/afternoon, we're on the sixth page! I suppose we've got a pretty popular topic on our hands ne? 8)

With that said, and my now feeling a bit behind the times since my last post (I don't think it would make much sense to go back to it now...), I'll just agree with SD, Pygmalion, and say, go ahead and have some fun! Even members of the "Royal Family" need to let loose once in a while!

From a loyal, humble "Apprentice," :wink:

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

Vince A

04-09-2004, 12:19 PM

. . . and grinding. And I enjoy them all, in different ways, but equally. And I'm no teenager.

How's that for direct? :D 8)
Oh, Baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :wink:

jon

04-09-2004, 12:31 PM

"If you treat a man as he appears to be, you make him worse than he is. But if you treat a man as if he already were what he potentially could be, you make him what he should be." Goethe

So is Goethe channeling Don Rumsfeld, or vice-versa? :wink:

Genesius Redux

04-09-2004, 12:43 PM

Sakura

04-09-2004, 01:08 PM

:shock: :shock: I don't get to check my mail for a day, and this topic increases by one more page! I go to sleep, and by this morning/afternoon, we're on the sixth page!

What do you expect, girl? You're a teenager. We don't have lives! You get to live it--we just get to talk about it. :lol:

Actually, I had to go to a Christian Seder for Maundy Thursday, and then I went to a friends house where I got to check the posts, but I didn't really have time to post myself, and then I had to do the 1:00 AM to 2:00 AM vigil that our Church does, so I've been abed until about 12:00 today, and now I've been on DF for an hour! =^__^= :D

:shock: Of course, in your talking to an Anime Otaku, dance-obsessed (with a few other sports-obsessed) teenager, you've gotta realize that I don't have a life outside of anime/manga, dance (and other sports), ramen noodles and other assorted foods, my beloved internet and computer, and my music! Yeah, my life beyond that=non-existent! 8) :D

Love to you all,

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

(PS- If we don't have lives, and yet our bodies are functioning as if we do, does that make us the "Baal zombie grinders" you spake of in thine Reading? =^_____^= Wow, I need some sugar right now......)