they think they can dance well, but...

[KevinL]

How do you deal with someone who thinks they can dance well, but in fact dances poorly? Several years ago, when I was first learning ballroom, I went to a dance with someone who said that they were silver level, but I didn't really think that they were. Even with my relatively limited experience I knew better than to flap my arms up and down (reminded me of a chicken, actually) while doing Samba. I danced with her several times, since we had attended together, but didn't really enjoy it much. As a dancer, how do you deal with people who think they are much better than they really are?

Related to that, last month I had a couple sign up for my intermediate Rhythm class and they said that they had been taking lessons with another instructor and so knew how to dance. They may have been able to dance, but they didn't know the same basics for Rumba and Cha Cha that the rest of the class knew, so I had to spend extra time catching them up with everyone else. That left me rushed to cover everything that I was supposed to cover in that class. To make matters worse, the (written) feedback they gave at the end of the month (I ask eveyone to do that on occassion) was that I should make sure that everyone has the basics down before moving on to the more challenging stuff. As a teacher, how would you deal with people overestimating thier abilities?

Thanks for your feedback!

Kevin

[Vince A]

I think you have to think postively to be good at anything. What if Muhammed Ali only thought he could be a good boxer . . . he may have never been "the greatest."

What if Jimi Hendrix really only wanted to play any muical instrument, and as in the commercial, went for the accordian.

You have to know what you want . . . you have to believe that will be a good dancer . . . that you will win if you compete . . . and so on. Maybe this is all this person is doing???

I'm certainly only an average WCS dancer today . . . but believe that I will be a very good and fun WCS dancer someday . . . even at my age!

I don't have to be great, and I certainly will never be perfect!!!

[Taita]

Hi Kevin,

This reminds me of someone I run into when I go out social dancing. This particular person, while very experienced, is a bad dancer. Comically bad. If Jim Carey went out ballroom dancing, somehow, this is how I'd imagine him. Not only does he wildly overestimate his abilities, he's so bad, I have to suppress my laughter.

Given this, I leave him alone. Yes, he's bad. Yes, it's morbidly funny to watch. However, it doesn't really affect me. In fact, there's a part of me that loves dancing as much as he does. The real question here is, what do you want out of this situation?

...back to lurk mode...

[etchuck]

How about train-wreck bad?

[cl5814]

I see this situation every friday at our regular dance party. We have 3 levels of group classes - beginner, intermediate and advanced. Beginner and intermediate is still bronze level and advanced maybe beginning silver (at least to my judgement). I frequently see people in the advanced class that should have been in the beginner class - if you are an advanced waltz dancer it doesn't mean your foxtrot is advanced as well. Consider the specific dance being taught.
If i was teaching i would spend a few minutes going over the basics in the class - 5 min max - and then move on to the advanced material. They would realize sooner or later that they can not keep up with the class and hopefully talk to you about it.

[Taita]

How about train-wreck bad?

I'd say "train-wreck" would apply if people were actually in some kind of physical danger. As for Mr. Carey, It's merely very comical. There are a few that I know that are train-wreck bad :P

As for underqualified students.... My coach would either just kick them out of class, ignore them and focus his energies to other students, or point them out and bring them to the front of the class and make fun of them.

...back to lurk mode...

[Genesius Redux]

I think you have to think postively to be good at anything. What if Muhammed Ali only thought he could be a good boxer . . . he may have never been "the greatest."


Ah, but Ali backed it up in the ring every time--he was Poetry itself!

[tsb]

it's natural to feel irritated at their feedback, to be sure. but since you didn't pay to get that feedback & you feel that you know what you're doing, you can toss it off and move on.

to your original situation, i suggest that if you have control over class registration, make admission to intermediate/advanced "by permission of instructor only" - regardless of whether they've taken the beginning class. this also gives you control over when certain students would best be served by reviewing the beginning class. (it would also probably help to manage your students expectations by stating up front at the beginning of your classes that people do learn at different rates so it should be expected that some students might benefit most by repeating this class - like passing the bar or earning a belt in a martial art so it's not the same as repeating a grade in school should you think it best if some students repeat a beginner course). another alternative might be allowing students with previous experience to join your classes, but stating up front that you reserve the right to excuse anyone from class (w/prorated refund minus administrative charges as needed) at your discretion if it turns out that they did not meet the stated class prerequisites and are holding the class back as a consequence. yes, this risks loss of revenue, and other factors may come into play, but i submit that the other students will be appreciative & you will feel better about the level of instruction you are providing.

regardless of the possibility that you are in a situation where these alternatives are not palatable or just not available to you, i recommend that at the beginning of each class/series, make sure that you & your classes are on the same page in terms of class goals, expectations and class prerequisites. (while i like to keep a set curriculum, if an entire class expresses an interest in something i'm comfortable going over or is more advanced than usual, i may modify a series and/or class accordingly.) the bottom line is that your students should understand your goals and your expectations & prerequisites - which may or may not be different from theirs depending on their previous background. the goal is to take steps towards managing the expectations of your students - like understanding that social promotion not only work against them, but everyone else in class, etc.

i don't know what philosophies you've adopted in your teaching style, but i've come to feel that if 80-90% of the class has it, i've done my job - and i try to move on not to spend too much class instruction time on the 10-20%; i do try to work with them as i like to put music on and let everyone practice for longer periods near the end of class. sometimes that's enough, but it may be that the students in question would benefit most from private instruction. when a student asks a question that benefits the entire class then of course it gets answered during the time allotted for class instruction (vs. practice time in rotation). in the case of your couple, i would have gone on and if they got offended i would have explained to them that to spend the necessary time with them would have forced me to ignore the rest of the class who were ready to go on, which woudn't have been fair to them and if they continuted to squawk, point out that the intermediate class had certain prerequisites which they did not possess or satisfy & suggest either a private to get them caught up & for them to switch to the beginner class. if they were offended and took off, so be it. but then again, i don't teach to pay the bills, so YMMV.

[dancin_feet]

Do you not have a "trial" lesson where all new student's abilities are evaluated? We have that at our studio and while 99% of people are put into the beginner class, some go straight to intermediate, depending on their abilities.

[johnnywalker]

I've also come across this at one dance studio I previously attended. They taught a social style and some of their students (who are at silver or gold level) cannot even perform a decent or technically correct basic. I now attend a dancesport school and in some ways have to 'unlearn' some poor habits I was taught. Having said that, I also have the words of my sensei (in japanese swordsmanship) in my mind. When I told him about an Aikido class I was attending and way they taught swordsmanship, he said to me that it is not necessarily incorrect teaching but another method or school of teaching (if that makes sense). He basically taught me appreciation of styles not familiar to me. So applying that I now believe if they are in competition then I would expect they performed to the criteria or guideline set out for their style(s); but if they were only social dancers and having a great time, then who am I to deflate or criticise them. I would rather be in the company of poor dancers who are sociable than agressive or arrogant people. I guess if I had to instruct I would probably say something along the lines my sensei told me and educate them on the different styles etc.

[cocodrilo]

"Train-wreck bad", etchuck! That's a hoot! Over here, in the land of the rising yen, a majority of the salsa dancers learn only patterns, and get quite good at them, yet CAN'T DANCE! I've been flipped, twisted, drop-kicked(practically!) by some of these pseudo-salseros and it's embarrassing, their flailing and over-zealous leads- how does one go about dealing with these kinds of people? I host parties & they are my guests(nice people but shi**y dancers) so what's a woman to do?

[dancin/dj]

"Train-wreck bad", etchuck! That's a hoot! Over here, in the land of the rising yen, a majority of the salsa dancers learn only patterns, and get quite good at them, yet CAN'T DANCE! I've been flipped, twisted, drop-kicked(practically!) by some of these pseudo-salseros and it's embarrassing, their flailing and over-zealous leads- how does one go about dealing with these kinds of people? I host parties & they are my guests(nice people but shi**y dancers) so what's a woman to do? thats sooooooooooooooo funny,yet so true salsa dancers who learn patterns real good but cant dance-or fill in whatever dance-lol.people think if there in a advanced class they are (quote) advanced-sure some are.i remember this one women who always boasted about her silver this and bronze that ,that she had in ballroom-and all the lessons she took- she had lousey timing in basic foxtrot &and waltz,i dreaded when she wanted to dance, because if she did not take sooooooooo many lessons and boast soooooooo much i could have tolerated her bad timing,but all classes she took for years made me want to run from her every time i saw her :?

[D-spot]

It's been said before,

beginners want intermediate classes
intermediates want advanced classes
advanced want privates on basics

Perhaps getting a poster made and distributing it to the class will make a point in a gentle humourous manner?
Or perhaps a quick comment at the start of each class along the lines of
'okay class, you should all be able to cope with this (specify what this is). I don't want to spend much time on it as I want to move onto -this specify/demo'.

Hopefully some will take the hint.
D-spot
tired, too much dancing, not enough sleep, zombie mode, hope above made sense

[cocodrilo]

I really feel for the teachers, as what are you supposed to do? Kick someone out of the class they've just joined up for? I do not teach salsa but DO teach ESL(English as a Second Language) and request prospective students to observe before they join to see if they feel comfortable with the level we are presently working at. With dance as with learning a foreing language, or learning anything for that matter, it is dificult for the teacher as levels do vary, as do levels of progression. EGADS, I hate to think about this! I've finished working for today!!!

[jon]

I really feel for the teachers, as what are you supposed to do? Kick someone out of the class they've just joined up for?

Yes. It's not reasonable for a class to be held back by one or two much less skilled students, it's part of why so few "advanced" group classes really are advanced. The instructor should politely ask them to move to a lower level class.

[Genesius Redux]

I really feel for the teachers, as what are you supposed to do? Kick someone out of the class they've just joined up for?

Yes. It's not reasonable for a class to be held back by one or two much less skilled students, it's part of why so few "advanced" group classes really are advanced. The instructor should politely ask them to move to a lower level class.

Good in theory--much more difficult in practice, especially if the teacher already knows the students. But the issue is not the rest of the class, it's the students who are in over their heads. It's very easy when teaching anything to not allow the class to be held back by one or two students--you just teach to everyone else and let the one or two struggling students find their own way. You're right that it's not reasonable for a class to be held back by a couple of students who don't have the skills to go forward, but the responsibility is the teacher's to establish priorities in teaching the class.

From the vantage point of the students--yeah, if they really need some basic work, a good teacher will recognize that and direct them to a more appropriate class. But from a simple business angle, you don't want to look like you're kicking anyone out. You tell the students the truth--that you think they'll be struggling just to stay above water in the class, and that you can't take out class time to help them out privately for any long periods of time. Hopefully, there is some other class that will be more tailored to their needs. Otherwise, you can offer additional privates if the students feel they need the time to review before coming into the class.

But you leave the decision to the students. That makes good business and good social sense.

On top of that, as some people have observed, a lot of dancers who don't have the skills they claim may have invested a lot of time, emotion, and money in the private lessons that got them nowhere. You don't want to imply to these students that their blood, sweat, and tears have been all but misspent. It makes the students feel stupid and creates animosity in the professional world (people hear that such-and-such a teacher has been openly critical of students from such-and-such a studio). So again, I think you want to work with them at whatever level they think they're working.

I think it was tsb who introduced the martial arts belt system (which by the way is not the traditional distinction--simply white and black), a graded visible system of achievement and effort. There are many times--and believe me this complaint about people who have no business wearing black belts except at a formal dinner comes up over and over in MA circuits--when promotion is given as a recognition of the promise of an achievement, not the achievement itself. So when you wear your new belt, you feel even more of a responsibility to live up to that belt. If the MA communities in America gave up this principle and started promoting people on the basis of merit alone, hundreds of studios across the country would go out of business.

I've even seen people come into the dojang where I work out, asking our teacher whether they should wear the belt indicating the rank they have already earned. He usually waves them aside and tells them the belt doesn't matter. But he expects them to learn how to function in the senior belt classes. He doesn't kick them out if they can't do it--and you should see how much these students have to work to stay in the class. They edit themselves, and the students who can't hack it quickly drop out.

Of course, the brighter and better students usually come in wearing white belts. Then, after a few classes, it becomes apparent that they're more advanced, and they're asked to wear a different belt. Field promotion, as it were.

My only point is that there's no need for teachers to police their classes any further than teaching the class at the appropriate level. The class will police itself. The students who are most irritated at the inability of their fellow students are probably the ones who need the most remedial help themselves--the really advanced students usually see working with some students who aren't as quick as a public service at least, an opportunity to test their own knowledge at best.

One of my closest dance friends was an instructor at the studio where I first began dancing. She held a group class in the evenings--and one of her students just really had trouble with basic steps. Forget about any technique. Years later, my friend told me that one of the things she first noticed about me, and that told her that we would get to be good friends, was that I never complained or had any problems dancing with her more challenged student. Although I wasn't aware of it at the time, the way I was interacting with this other student in the class was laying the foundations of one of the most important friendships in my life.

With people who feel that they know more than they do--patience pays.

Cheers,

Genesius

[jon]

But the issue is not the rest of the class, it's the students who are in over their heads.

There is an effect on the other students as well. If you're dancing with someone who consistently can't lead the move, can't remember the sequence, can't stay balanced for the multiple turns, whatever, then you're wasting your time. If the teacher deliberately slows down below what most of the class members are capable of, you're wasting your time. And if either of those happens very often, you're less likely to sign up for such a class in the future.

An effect that's harder to quantify than that of students who are asked to leave and object to it, yes. But still an effect.

Personally I don't go to group lessons any more unless they're either auditioned, or taught by teachers I know will teach at the claimed level - and there are few such teachers.

[Genesius Redux]

But the issue is not the rest of the class, it's the students who are in over their heads.

There is an effect on the other students as well. If you're dancing with someone who consistently can't lead the move, can't remember the sequence, can't stay balanced for the multiple turns, whatever, then you're wasting your time. If the teacher deliberately slows down below what most of the class members are capable of, you're wasting your time. And if either of those happens very often, you're less likely to sign up for such a class in the future.

Yes, true--but what you're talking about here is the teacher's inability to run the class, not a problem with the students who are enrolled. What I was trying to suggest is that it's perfectly possible for a teacher to run a class very well with one or two students in it who aren't up to snuff.

I run into this kind of thing all the time in the writing classes I teach--a complaint that one or more students in a peer review group are not pulling their weight or whatever. This isn't a problem because first, my students get into different groups in each class, and second, because you can learn just as effectively from looking at someone else's paper as you can having them look at yours.

If someone isn't leading properly in a group dance class, you can try to figure out how to backlead the pattern, or you can pay attention to the leader's steps and learn those as well and try to help out the student who is having trouble during the two or three minutes you dance with him--in those cases, you certainly aren't wasting your time.

Again, if it's really only one or two students who are having trouble in a class of, say, twelve, then there shouldn't be any slow-down in the class itself. If you're dealing with a class of six, maybe. And if both students are doing the lead part, definitely. But two students in six--you have nearly half the class a bit slower. Of course the teacher is going to take time with that--at that point the question becomes whether the one or two advanced students need to be in another class. What do you think? :?:

[jon]

Of course the teacher is going to take time with that--at that point the question becomes whether the one or two advanced students need to be in another class. What do you think? :?:

If you go to an advertised low-level class expecting it to be a high-level class, that's equally out of place. There is lots of value in working with less-experienced dancers on technique and simpler patterns, no question.

But the issue here - getting back to my original comment about "advanced" often being a misnomer - is whether the disparity among the students is so great that the class ends up being something other than what it was advertised as. There is only so much control a teacher can exercise over this; but they can exercise some control, and if it works out that their classes aren't what's advertised, they should stop advertising them in that fashion.

[LindyKeya]

Speaking of train-wreck bad... Someone who almost fits in that category was made president of one of the local swing clubs for this year...
This means that tomorrow he is actually running a workshop with one excellent instructor teaching one of the classes, his train-wrek self teaching another, and the third instructor- well, he shouldn't be teaching workshops either! He thinks he's amazing though.

[SDsalsaguy]

I've seen this same type of problem LK... someone becomes president of a dance organization based on their orginizational skills/promise and somehow think this also qualifies them as an instructor! :shock:

[cocodrilo]

You're absolutely right, jon. I was in an intermediate-level class and we were taken over by beginners. The teacher was desperate to recruit new students, and we were forced to do basic shines! Geez! Needless to say, the 6 of us dropped out...
jon, I used to live in Pleasant Hill & Walnut Creek. Where in the Bay Area are you from?

[jon]

Where in the Bay Area are you from?

I live in Mt. View.

[tsb]

I really feel for the teachers, as what are you supposed to do? Kick someone out of the class they've just joined up for?

Yes. It's not reasonable for a class to be held back by one or two much less skilled students, it's part of why so few "advanced" group classes really are advanced. The instructor should politely ask them to move to a lower level class.

Good in theory--much more difficult in practice, especially if the teacher already knows the students. But the issue is not the rest of the class, it's the students who are in over their heads. It's very easy when teaching anything to not allow the class to be held back by one or two students--you just teach to everyone else and let the one or two struggling students find their own way. You're right that it's not reasonable for a class to be held back by a couple of students who don't have the skills to go forward, but the responsibility is the teacher's to establish priorities in teaching the class.


i agree - but i'm not sure kevinl sees it that way - yet.


From the vantage point of the students--yeah, if they really need some basic work, a good teacher will recognize that and direct them to a more appropriate class. But from a simple business angle, you don't want to look like you're kicking anyone out. You tell the students the truth--that you think they'll be struggling just to stay above water in the class, and that you can't take out class time to help them out privately for any long periods of time. Hopefully, there is some other class that will be more tailored to their needs. Otherwise, you can offer additional privates if the students feel they need the time to review before coming into the class.

But you leave the decision to the students. That makes good business and good social sense.

again i agree - to a point. with the decision left to themselves, few will cheerfully move down a level.


On top of that, as some people have observed, a lot of dancers who don't have the skills they claim may have invested a lot of time, emotion, and money in the private lessons that got them nowhere. You don't want to imply to these students that their blood, sweat, and tears have been all but misspent. It makes the students feel stupid and creates animosity in the professional world (people hear that such-and-such a teacher has been openly critical of students from such-and-such a studio). So again, I think you want to work with them at whatever level they think they're working.


that's where it helps to begin managing their expectations as soon as you can & using the proper analogy might help. if it were just time & effort that guaranteed success, we'd all play golf like tiger woods.

you don't have to critical to point out how another studio's goals & curriculum may differ from your own. case in point: within 10 minutes drive from my home there are two very (financially) successful studios. one is a "social dance" oriented business where people view dance primarily as a social function, and the majority of them learn "steps" and they all go to the same dances and dance amongst themselves. a lot of relationships/marriages are a result of people taking classes with this studio. at the other end of the spectrum, the other studio is staffed by people who've competed & won champioships at various levels, been in movies like 'dance with me' and emphasize a higher level of technique - to the point where if someone from the other studio comes for instruction, they are invariably directed to start at level 1; entrance to upper levels is entirely by instructor permission (or if you know enough other students there who will vouch for you). the people who stay at the first studio are happy because the goals & curriculum fit what they want to get out of it - or they may discover that they desire a greater level of technical instruction and they supplement their classes or move on. it's no different than choosing between american social & international styles in ballroom - if you plan on dancing socially with a lot of different partners, you're more likely to choose american social. if you plan to compete and/or will only dance with a few partners at most, international may have more appeal. there's no right or wrong in preferring one over the other or any reason(s) to prompt criticism.



I think it was tsb who introduced the martial arts belt system (which by the way is not the traditional distinction--simply white and black), a graded visible system of achievement and effort. There are many times--and believe me this complaint about people who have no business wearing black belts except at a formal dinner comes up over and over in MA circuits--when promotion is given as a recognition of the promise of an achievement, not the achievement itself. So when you wear your new belt, you feel even more of a responsibility to live up to that belt. If the MA communities in America gave up this principle and started promoting people on the basis of merit alone, hundreds of studios across the country would go out of business.

has it gotten that bad? haven't done it in 20 years. i'm not sure that those studios going out of business would be a bad thing.


I've even seen people come into the dojang where I work out, asking our teacher whether they should wear the belt indicating the rank they have already earned. He usually waves them aside and tells them the belt doesn't matter. But he expects them to learn how to function in the senior belt classes. He doesn't kick them out if they can't do it--and you should see how much these students have to work to stay in the class. They edit themselves, and the students who can't hack it quickly drop out.

Of course, the brighter and better students usually come in wearing white belts. Then, after a few classes, it becomes apparent that they're more advanced, and they're asked to wear a different belt. Field promotion, as it were.


i suggest that the people who submit themselves to that kind of discpline also generally possess a more developed sense of integrity in that regard than the typical dance student would. besides, if you're not as good as you claim to be, the payback is appropriate when you're sparring with some who IS as good as they think they are and you get your butt kicked!


My only point is that there's no need for teachers to police their classes any further than teaching the class at the appropriate level. The class will police itself. The students who are most irritated at the inability of their fellow students are probably the ones who need the most remedial help themselves--the really advanced students usually see working with some students who aren't as quick as a public service at least, an opportunity to test their own knowledge at best.


if there are a few people in class who needs help i have no problem working with them & i give out a lot more freebies than i probably should. but while working my way up, i found the idea of paying to be an instructor's assistant and not being challenged in a class that was advertised as an advanced class quite unappealing.

barry (aka tsb)

[Sagitta]

You're absolutely right, jon. I was in an intermediate-level class and we were taken over by beginners. The teacher was desperate to recruit new students, and we were forced to do basic shines! Geez! Needless to say, the 6 of us dropped out...

happened to me too, except that after one 4 week session the newbies dropped out as they were too intimidated. The teacher tried to strike a balance between the two groups but couldn't achieve it, going too fast for the complete beginners and too slow for those 6 of us who knew something.

[KevinL]

As for underqualified students.... My coach would either just kick them out of class, ignore them and focus his energies to other students, or point them out and bring them to the front of the class and make fun of them.


I like the first two options, but that last one is not to my taste! I might take them aside during class and tell them they were over their heads, but not in front of witnesses!

Kevin

[KevinL]

to your original situation, i suggest that if you have control over class registration, make admission to intermediate/advanced "by permission of instructor only" - regardless of whether they've taken the beginning class.

One of my students suggested that on the feedback form after the last class. Interestingly enough, (s)he was one of those people I wouldn't have given my full blessing to move on to the level II class.

this also gives you control over when certain students would best be served by reviewing the beginning class. (it would also probably help to manage your students expectations by stating up front at the beginning of your classes that people do learn at different rates so it should be expected that some students might benefit most by repeating this class - like passing the bar or earning a belt in a martial art so it's not the same as repeating a grade in school should you think it best if some students repeat a beginner course).

I heartily encourage people to repeat the beginnning class, some people do it 3-4 times. I usually allow people to move to the next level when they feel that they have the level I material down well enough. Sometimes they're ready, sometimes they're not. Either way, if they repeat the Level I class while taking the Level II class the Level I class is half price.

I think it really helps to encourage people to repeat the Level Iclass by having everyone who is repeating that class identify themselves. The beginners will dance with the repeaters and feel how much better dancers they are than the other beginners (usually), and so see the value of repeating the class.

another alternative might be allowing students with previous experience to join your classes, but stating up front that you reserve the right to excuse anyone from class (w/prorated refund minus administrative charges as needed) at your discretion if it turns out that they did not meet the stated class prerequisites and are holding the class back as a consequence. yes, this risks loss of revenue, and other factors may come into play, but i submit that the other students will be appreciative & you will feel better about the level of instruction you are providing.

Yes, I know I should do this, but I'm too much of a softee, I don't want to hurt people's feelings. I'll have to get over it though, because by letting the un-ready person stay I potentially hurt everyone else.

i don't know what philosophies you've adopted in your teaching style, but i've come to feel that if 80-90% of the class has it, i've done my job - and i try to move on not to spend too much class instruction time on the 10-20%; i do try to work with them as i like to put music on and let everyone practice for longer periods near the end of class.

I usually teach until almost everyone gets it, and then let people practice to music. Then I work with the few who don't have it while everyone else is dancing. It seems to work ok.

sometimes that's enough, but it may be that the students in question would benefit most from private instruction. when a student asks a question that benefits the entire class then of course it gets answered during the time allotted for class instruction (vs. practice time in rotation). in the case of your couple, i would have gone on and if they got offended i would have explained to them that to spend the necessary time with them would have forced me to ignore the rest of the class who were ready to go on, which woudn't have been fair to them and if they continuted to squawk, point out that the intermediate class had certain prerequisites which they did not possess or satisfy & suggest either a private to get them caught up & for them to switch to the beginner class. if they were offended and took off, so be it. but then again, i don't teach to pay the bills, so YMMV.

I'm not paying the bills yet, either, but I'm working toward that goal! Maybe someday soon.

Thanks for the advice!

Kevin

[Porfirio Landeros]

I've seen this same type of problem LK... someone becomes president of a dance organization based on their orginizational skills/promise and somehow think this also qualifies them as an instructor! :shock:

How close to home are you hitting on that one :?: (you don't have to answer ;););))

[Taita]

As for underqualified students.... My coach would either just kick them out of class, ignore them and focus his energies to other students, or point them out and bring them to the front of the class and make fun of them.


I like the first two options, but that last one is not to my taste! I might take them aside during class and tell them they were over their heads, but not in front of witnesses!

Kevin

LOL, I can completely understand Kevin. Normally, I wouldn't go for that method either, but I guess it depends on the situation. In most dance classes, the focus is more social. I once took a class taught by a very qualified professional (a fellow DFer nonetheless!) that was advertised as an 'advanced' class. When I asked about the class, I was assured that it was up to my level. While I did learn a few things, I was dismayed that most of the people in the class were completely in over their heads (one student who was in that class was actually in her 2nd week of dancing! :shock: ). It quickly dawned on me that the studio was more than happy to collect the registration fees and allow anybody to take the class. Other times, I see this situation occur when people would rather not risk losing business or risk being seen as the 'villain' by not giving an honest assessment of a student's abilities. Needless to say, that studio no longer recieved my business. Unfortunately, that particular studio proved to be a rather unscrupulous independent studio and ended up shutting down a couple of years later. However, it was always known by the serious dancers that I knew for it's lack of advanced students.

I suppose it is fortunate that mocking people in front of a class is not a standard procedure. Lord knows, I would have been called up front many times over (particularly in my ballet and jazz classes! :P ). In this particular situation, this is a technique class taught by a world class coach withen the context of open level choreography. While his methods are not always 'nice', they are nonetheless very effective. To me, he seems more interested in teaching and helping than he is in coddling. Consequently, he is honest in his feedback (sometimes brutally honest!). He has often said that no favors are done when you withold the truth from them.

At first, I did not approve of his methods. After all, I believe that everyone is fully capable of dancing at a high level. But after a few months, I began to understand. He is interested in training only those who are dedicated to improving their level and comprehension of dance. While he doesn't intentionally drive people away from his class, very few people show up who are 'in over their heads'. Ultimately, he attracts the type of students he is interested in teaching. One of the things that make him a great teacher is that he is very effective at getting somebody's attention. Sometimes it's gentle encouragement, sometimes it's a swift kick in the a**, and sometimes it's in the form of public humiliation. When he mocks a student, he does so because he cares. (Story: Once, a woman who was called up in front of the class complained that she simply couldn't do what he was asking her to do. She became so frustrated and angry that she even screamed at him: YOU TRY DOING THIS IN HEELS! So, he asked her to take off her shoes so he could put them on. Then proceeded to embarrass her by flawlessly executing her part in front of the whole class while wearing her heels :shock: ). When I really thought about it, the net effect is that it grabs the student's and the class's attention. I know that I often leave realizing that I just learned more in that group lesson than what I would learn from a private lesson with just about every other pro that I know.

Kevin, what do you want out of this? Do you want your advanced class to be as social as your beginner class? Are you interested in teaching only serious students in your advanced class? Are you prepared to put your foot down occassionally and simply not allow people to take your class? By not setting a standard, are you inadvertantly discouraging students who would benefit from your class? Are you prepared for times when you are teaching very few and perhaps even nobody in your advanced classes? What do you want to focus on? Technique? Choreography? There have been some great suggestions put forth here. What are your thoughts?

.....back to lurk mode.....

[tsb]

I think it really helps to encourage people to repeat the Level Iclass by having everyone who is repeating that class identify themselves. The beginners will dance with the repeaters and feel how much better dancers they are than the other beginners (usually), and so see the value of repeating the class.

that's a good idea. i'm stealing it! :)


another alternative might be allowing students with previous experience to join your classes, but stating up front that you reserve the right to excuse anyone from class (w/prorated refund minus administrative charges as needed) at your discretion if it turns out that they did not meet the stated class prerequisites and are holding the class back as a consequence. yes, this risks loss of revenue, and other factors may come into play, but i submit that the other students will be appreciative & you will feel better about the level of instruction you are providing.

Yes, I know I should do this, but I'm too much of a softee, I don't want to hurt people's feelings. I'll have to get over it though, because by letting the un-ready person stay I potentially hurt everyone else.

it also benefits them in the long run.


I'm not paying the bills yet, either, but I'm working toward that goal! Maybe someday soon.

Thanks for the advice!

Kevin

i'm changing careers myself. and you're more than welcome.

barry

[tsb]

Kevin, what do you want out of this? Do you want your advanced class to be as social as your beginner class? Are you interested in teaching only serious students in your advanced class? Are you prepared to put your foot down occassionally and simply not allow people to take your class? By not setting a standard, are you inadvertantly discouraging students who would benefit from your class? Are you prepared for times when you are teaching very few and perhaps even nobody in your advanced classes? What do you want to focus on? Technique? Choreography? There have been some great suggestions put forth here. What are your thoughts?

.....back to lurk mode.....

these are very important questions. other things you might want to consider to help you answer these questions are:
- after how much instruction should one of your students expect to be comfortable going out dancing (this may help you decide on how much technique to emphasize in your beginning classes or even consider offering a separate technique series);
- what are some of the prevailing attitudes/demographics/size of your potential client base - which are probably different than from my neck of the woods (what is the actual population of vermont, anyway? i'm wondering if the population of metropolitan LA is larger) - but the point comes from something a former boss used to say about how you could make the world's greatest horses--t sandwich - and go broke...

and when you know what you want, i recommend articulating these philosophies in your ads/flyers (in positive ways, of course) and at the beginning of each series so your students will know what to expect. and if you do have the opportunity to interact with potential students before they start class, find out what their goals & expectations are.

[KevinL]

I think it really helps to encourage people to repeat the Level I class by having everyone who is repeating that class identify themselves. The beginners will dance with the repeaters and feel how much better dancers they are than the other beginners (usually), and so see the value of repeating the class.

that's a good idea. i'm stealing it! :)

Feel free!

In case it matters I do charge half price for those people who are repeating as long as (in their opinion) they are still learning from the class. Once a student feels they are no longer learning new stuff (technique, timing, whatever), I stop charging them if they continue to attend. It gives them more time to dance, and they help the other students because they know what they are doing.

Kevin

[KevinL]

Kevin, what do you want out of this?

What do I want out of teaching dance? I want everyone I ever meet to be able to dance. I want everyone in the world to know the joy that I get (and most DF members get) when I take someone in my arms and we lose ourselves in the music.

What do I want out of this topic? Feedback on how to deal with skill level differences among students. I'm getting lots of good feedback with this.

Do you want your advanced class to be as social as your beginner class?

My "advanced" class isn't really an advanced class. The level I classes that I teach cover the first 3-4 basic patterns (according the the DVIDA syllabus) in either smooth (Waltz, Foxtrot and Tango) or rhythm (Rumba, Cha Cha and Merengue). The Level II classes complete the Bronze syllabus (over the course of five months). I haven't started teaching Silver level material, in part because I'm not that skilled with it myself, but in part because there aren't enough students. There are only a handful of "advanced" dancers in the state, and they all take training at the Vermont DanceSport Academy under Bobbi Davies. Most people here are only interested in social dancing which is fine since that is what I know how to teach!

Do I want the Level II classes to be as open, inviting and fun as the Level I classes? Yes. Will I be teaching "social" dancing vrs "competetive" dancing? Yes. Do I want the students to add extra technique and skill to what they learned in the Level I class? Yes.

Are you interested in teaching only serious students in your advanced class?

See the answer above, there are very few "serious students" here. There are lots who are dedicated to learning how to social dance well, though.

Are you prepared to put your foot down occassionally and simply not allow people to take your class?

I haven't done this yet even though I know it is the right thing to do. I will have to work on my backbone so that I can encourage people to take the appropriate level classes.

By not setting a standard, are you inadvertantly discouraging students who would benefit from your class?

The standard so far has been, if you are interested and think you can do it, you can be in the class. Unfortunately this does some students a disservice when they in fact can't do what is necessary. (Last month a student told me that she cried on the way home after a Level II class, so i guess I was pushing her hard enough... She came back, though.)

Interestingly, there are other dance teachers in the area (more experienced than I am), and only occassionally have their students transferred to my classes. Those who try my classes say the learn well, but most don't transfer into my classes. Several of my students have tried classes with other instructors and told me they like mine better. (I assume other people have liked the other instructors better, they just haven't told me that!)

Are you prepared for times when you are teaching very few and perhaps even nobody in your advanced classes?

Well, if nobody signs up for the Level II class I just cancel it, but I often teach Level II classes with only 1-3 people. I like larger classes though, that way everyone gets to dance with more partners, and they get to learn if they can really do it socially.

What do you want to focus on? Technique? Choreography?

My Level I class focuses on getting people moving, and comfortable with being on the dance floor.

The Level II classes deal with learning more patterns and stringing them together. I do cover technique in much more detail, but in the context of how doing these things makes it easier to lead/follow...

I have taught a couple of Level III classes that string all the level II patterns together, so if that is what you meant by choreography I teach that separately.

There have been some great suggestions put forth here. What are your thoughts?

I need to not let under-prepared students take the Level II classes.

I need to continue teaching to 90% of the class. (Unless it's a small group, then it is basically a private lesson, and I'll go at whatever pace is necessary.)


these are very important questions. other things you might want to consider to help you answer these questions are:
- after how much instruction should one of your students expect to be comfortable going out dancing (this may help you decide on how much technique to emphasize in your beginning classes or even consider offering a separate technique series)

I spend a fair amount of class time dancing to music, so after one four-week class the students should be able to go out dancing and be able to more around the floor comfortably. In this regard, I think I cover the right amount of technique in the Level I class.

- what are some of the prevailing attitudes/demographics/size of your potential client base

Attitudes:
People don't like paying for private lessons.
Guys don't dance.

Demographics:
I let high school/college students take class for half price.
Mostly wedding couples, or people in thier 30-40's trying to meet new people.

Size:
Small. According to 2001 census estimates, the entire state of Vermont has a population of 613,090.
Greater Burlington: 50,000 people
St. Albans: 10-15,000
Montpelier: 10-15,000

- which are probably different than from my neck of the woods (what is the actual population of vermont, anyway? i'm wondering if the population of metropolitan LA is larger) - but the point comes from something a former boss used to say about how you could make the world's greatest horses--t sandwich - and go broke...

I think my classes make a very high quality sandwich, but they don't include any equine rectal excretions. Lots of my students seem to agree, since they keep coming back.

and when you know what you want, i recommend articulating these philosophies in your ads/flyers (in positive ways, of course) and at the beginning of each series so your students will know what to expect. and if you do have the opportunity to interact with potential students before they start class, find out what their goals & expectations are.

I want everyone to be able to move to music, and enjoy the experience. I'm particularly focused on beginners, which works out great because that is what most people are, and it's what I'm most skilled at teaching. I think I do a good job of articulating my dance philosophies in my materials.

Thanks for all your feedback!

Kevin

[tsb]

I think it really helps to encourage people to repeat the Level I class by having everyone who is repeating that class identify themselves. The beginners will dance with the repeaters and feel how much better dancers they are than the other beginners (usually), and so see the value of repeating the class.

that's a good idea. i'm stealing it! :)

Feel free!

In case it matters I do charge half price for those people who are repeating as long as (in their opinion) they are still learning from the class. Once a student feels they are no longer learning new stuff (technique, timing, whatever), I stop charging them if they continue to attend. It gives them more time to dance, and they help the other students because they know what they are doing.

Kevin

i get a sense that (whether you are conscious of it or not) you are building a community of dancers, not to mention buildling a lot of loyalty for yourself. IMO you are on the right track.

bc

[tsb]

Kevin, what do you want out of this?

What do I want out of teaching dance? I want everyone I ever meet to be able to dance. I want everyone in the world to know the joy that I get (and most DF members get) when I take someone in my arms and we lose ourselves in the music.

What do I want out of this topic? Feedback on how to deal with skill level differences among students. I'm getting lots of good feedback with this.


i'm glad that you find this helpful. one last thought: depending on the dance you can spice up a move/figure by suggesting extra styling/footwork for students who are repeating the class (probably more appropriate for something like lindy/WCS/salsa etc.) that might keep them a little more attentive (plus reminding them that they can spend more time concerning themselves with their fundamental basics.


Interestingly, there are other dance teachers in the area (more experienced than I am), and only occassionally have their students transferred to my classes. Those who try my classes say the learn well, but most don't transfer into my classes. Several of my students have tried classes with other instructors and told me they like mine better. (I assume other people have liked the other instructors better, they just haven't told me that!)


a lot of it is probably that they're comfortable having started their instruction elsewhere. still, it's not just a matter of knowing your material - how you present it and whatever personal baggage you carry (and uinload) when you teach matters, too: there's an Arg. Tango teacher in LA who probably articulates techniques and principles as well as anyone i've studied with but she HAS to be right all the time & she teaches with so much latent anger i quit after two weeks.


I spend a fair amount of class time dancing to music, so after one four-week class the students should be able to go out dancing and be able to more around the floor comfortably. In this regard, I think I cover the right amount of technique in the Level I class.


basically just the steps, then. it's hard for me not to hit them with a bale of hay technique-wise sometimes. but if someone asks a good question i generally offer the class a pointer i wouldn't normally offer except in a private...


Small. According to 2001 census estimates, the entire state of Vermont has a population of 613,090.
Greater Burlington: 50,000 people
St. Albans: 10-15,000
Montpelier: 10-15,000


yeah. much smaller than LA...


...you could make the world's greatest horses--t sandwich - and go broke...

I think my classes make a very high quality sandwich, but they don't include any equine rectal excretions. Lots of my students seem to agree, since they keep coming back.

yeah, FWIW i think you're on the right track.