AT Polarization

[Ampster]

IMHO (at least here in Seattle, and in other cities I've visited), there seems to exist a schism in AT. People and venues seem to gravitate into two general categories of AT. Viejo, and nuevo.

Viejo: (Old) Generally composed of mature dancers whose style span salon, milonguero, etc. Tango danced in close embrace. The movements are generally walking based, smaller, simpler, slower, more controlled. Dress is more formal.

It looks that here, people dance for the connection and for one's partner other more than anything else.

Nuevo: (new) Generally composed of younger dancers, or dancers who prefer to dance young and vigorous. Their dancing is in the open, more acrobatic, more vigorous, technically astute. It is, "Nuevo" style AT. Dress is more informal and fashionable.

In this scenario, it looks as though they dance and perform for each other and the audience. The connection is more physical.



Both categories can be beautiful to watch depending on the prowess of the dancers.

[Angel HI]

Viejo: It looks that here, people dance for the connection and for one's partner other more than anything else.

Nuevo: In this scenario, it looks as though they dance and perform for each other and the audience. The connection is more physical.

Both categories can be beautiful to watch depending on the prowess of the dancers.

Agreed, and further agree that both have a place as well as beautiful qualities. I feel it to be a shame, however, that amongst the younger/newer dancers, they rarely seem to achieve the connection that the older ones do. "That connection" is really why most persons dance (even when they don't realize it). http://smileys.smilchat.net/smileys/music/rocknroll1.gif

[newbie]

IMHO (at least here in Seattle, and in other cities I've visited), there seems to exist a schism in AT. People and venues seem to gravitate into two general categories of AT. Viejo, and nuevo.

Viejo: (Old) Generally composed of mature dancers whose style span salon, milonguero, etc. Tango danced in close embrace. The movements are generally walking based, smaller, simpler, slower, more controlled. Dress is more formal.

It looks that here, people dance for the connection and for one's partner other more than anything else.

Nuevo: (new) Generally composed of younger dancers, or dancers who prefer to dance young and vigorous. Their dancing is in the open, more acrobatic, more vigorous, technically astute. It is, "Nuevo" style AT. Dress is more informal and fashionable.

In this scenario, it looks as though they dance and perform for each other and the audience. The connection is more physical.



Both categories can be beautiful to watch depending on the prowess of the dancers.

IMHO, you're biased.

[BlueSkies]

Oh, this is going to be a great thread!

In the places where I tend to dance so far, I don't think there's such a big gap, though the "feel" of those milongas and dancers will be heavily inflenced by the group of teachers that dominate the area and share style/methods, promote events etc.

In terms of music played, most of the milongas I go to play a wide range of music from traditional, nuevo, electronica, and "non-tango". Most of the dancers I talk to really enjoy the variety.

In terms of style/embrace, many of the experienced dancers are in a salon close embrace (generally taught by the local teachers), but others prefer an open nuevo style, and others modify their style/embrace when dancing to different "sub-genres / ages" of music.

I generally prefer a close salon embrace as I like to micro-lead and feel this embrace gives beautiful subtle connection, but I recently danced a great electronica-nuevo medley with a brilliant follower who opened out to become more "nuevo" to adapt to the music. The level of "play" between us went up and the feel of the dance got very energetic and dynamic, but the connection remained fabulous and I did not feel we were dancing for anyone apart from ourselves. This leads me to personally believe that though there are differences between embraces and styles there's no inherently "better" embrace for connection, it's all about the dancers.

Blue "unbiased" Skies ;-)

[bastet]

It may be a tad oversimplified, but I suppose you could say that a larger portion of the younger crowd tends towards the more "Nuevo" style in my own area, such as it is, and the more...ahem..."mature crowd" is fairly mixed in what they like.

Most of the dance floors here will not accomodate the larger, floor eating movements that tend to accompany Nuevo style dancing, but people gamely press on anyway, despite what I would consider poor choice of floor craft tactics by most of the leaders.

This has something to do with a newer teacher here in town who teaches mainly Nuevo, even at a beginner level and who is currently "de riguer" with all the tango in crowd here.

At the last milonga I was at, a certain song came on that was fairly dramatic and you could easily tell who was taking this persons classes by the way they all made the desicion to open the embrace for the song and do exactly the same type of musical interpretation. It was kind of surreal, sitting out and watching it.

I myself have no problem with Nuevo, other than that I do not think it is something that should be taught at a beginner level before people have developed a functional idea of connection and musicality.

I am not young or "mature" (though closer to the mature age group). I dress very casually, like both old and new music but prefer close embrace dancing, unless I am with a person who I know is fairly well versed in Nuevo techniques and isn't going to botch it all with stupid arm leads. (Three guesses as to what the last "Nuevo" person who danced with me did...)

[Steve Pastor]

The end of summer brings people back to dancing, and many long time dancers are starting to show up again where I dance. There is something new, however. A bunch of fresh faced young women. Most have the following in common: long legs, trim, ahtletic builds, Comme il Fauts.
They practiced. And they practiced. And they practiced. (Well, it IS a practica.) And you had to stay clear of them (they were in the middle of the floor usually) or you would get spiked. Their "teachers" were usually somewhat? older men who are recognizable as long term dancers.
It was like watching rehearsals for "Tango Forever" or "The Tango Lesson".
Music? Um, yeah, there was music on. Rarely did I see any relationship between the practicing and the music.
Yes, some of the "regular" milonguero style dancers are showing up again, too.

If the nuevo dancers are looking for the same "connection that the older ones" are looking for, as Angel put, they are looking in the wrong places.

There used to be a young woman here who acted as assistant when I was taking some of my "cClose embrace/milonguero/apilado" classes. I was surprised when she said, as we/I worked on one very subtle aspect of this style, that she really enjoyed this aspect of AT. She was a nuevo dancer. She was before she helped out in this class. And she was after she took this series of classes. (Oh, um, sorry. She was helping to teach, right?)
So, what do you think gives there? She really likes it, but never does it?
I think many people talk the connection talk, but are reluctant to go there in the intensely close apilado style. Especially young people. I'll leave the psychology of it to either someone else, or later, or try to forget about it.

[Peaches]

Oh, for christ's sake.

Deep connection happens in all styles. Dancing for each other happens in all styles.

Lack of connection to each other and to the music happens in all styles. Dancing for others instead of one's partner happens in all styles.


Good dancing, bad dancing, nuevo style, viejo style...it's all done by all people. There are great younger dancers out there, there are some really really crappy older dancers out there. (I know, I've danced with some of them...and they're some of the absolute worst I've encountered.)

I'm not saying that what you posted isn't what you've seen, Ampster. But I'll second the idea that you're a tad biased. Or, perhaps, it's just a Seattle thing, because it sure as hell doesn't work that way around here.

But can we, PLEASE, get away from this absurd notion that just because the dancing isn't close embrace/apilado/whatever, that the connection isn't as deep or intense, that the dancers aren't as mature, that the musicality isn't there as much (if at all), and all of the other usual nonsense that is usually lobbed at non close embrace/apilado/whatever dancers? PLEASE?!?!

Good dancers are good dancers. Bad dancers are bad dancers. They occur in all situations, in all walks of life, in all venues, to all music, at all ages. Anything else is just so much bias and prejudice and preconceived notions and stereotyping.

And...yes...I do dance and enjoy everything. All embraces, all music.

[Ampster]

IMHO, you're biased.

Just telling what I observed. Depending on where you go (In Seattle and San Francisco), there are distinct differences in who, what , and how they dance.

[Angel HI]

I agree with Peaches' post completely...except for one thing. Nowhere in this thread has Amp said that he believes one to be better than the other...therefore, no bias intended. Two posters have mentioned this, but what he actually said was that both were beautiful.

Secondly, perhaps some of you have misunderstood my earlier post. I was not stating that one style or another allows/creates/presents/teaches/develops more connection than the other. What I said was (yeah, a wee off topic) that often the younger dancers do not as readily achieve the connection that the older dancers do. This is true, not only in AT, but in many genres, as well.

For ex., several years ago, I ws involved in a touring production of "The Soul of Argentina: A Tribute to Tango". The cast consisted of dancers from 17 - late fifties, and of varying levles of expertise. Though they all were well trained and ready for the stage, consistently we could see that the maturity level of the understanding of the intricacies and intimacies of AT were better portrayed by the older dancers even when the younger ones were better technicians of the dance. We also understood that this was due, largely in part, to the simple fact that, more often than not, though certainly not always, the older dancers drew on their maturity and life experiences...something that the younger dancers simply hadn't had time on this earth to learn/develop.

Certainly a profound connection may be found in all styles/genres. A profound understanding of the dance may be found in all ages of dancers. Everyone on the DF knows that I am probably the biggest proponent of this on the boards. But, there is no substitute for life. This is the same reason why we forever seek to learn from the elders...they are the real sages.

[Peaches]

I agree with Peaches' post completely...except for one thing. Nowhere in this thread has Amp said that he believes one to be better than the other...therefore, no bias intended. Two posters have mentioned this, but what he actually said was that both were beautiful.Very true. My apologies for imprecise writing.

I did not mean to imply that Ampster said these things. It seemed like he was a bit biased, but I know he didn't say these things, and my comments weren't particualry directed at him.

I'm sorry, Amp, if I've offended you.

[bordertangoman]

I agree with Peaches and I don't think its age dependent either. I know some seniors who are smooth and others who are clunky. I can have a good connection with my 4 year old daughter then a lousy one with one of my favourite dance partners.


I put it down to the phases of the moon and the weather.... I dance best during a thunderstorm.. all that electricity.... wow!

[Joe]

imho (at Least Here In Seattle, And In Other Cities I've Visited), There Seems To Exist A Schism In At. People And Venues Seem To Gravitate Into Two General Categories Of At. Viejo, And Nuevo.

viejo: (old) Generally Composed Of Mature Dancers Whose Style Span Salon, Milonguero, Etc. Tango Danced In Close Embrace. The Movements Are Generally Walking Based, Smaller, Simpler, Slower, More Controlled. Dress Is More Formal.

It Looks That Here, People Dance For The Connection And For One's Partner Other More Than Anything Else.

nuevo: (new) Generally Composed Of Younger Dancers, Or Dancers Who Prefer To Dance Young And Vigorous. Their Dancing Is In The Open, More Acrobatic, More Vigorous, Technically Astute. It Is, "nuevo" Style At. Dress Is More Informal And Fashionable.

In This Scenario, It Looks As Though They Dance And Perform For Each Other And The Audience. The Connection Is More Physical.



Both Categories Can Be Beautiful To Watch Depending On The Prowess Of The Dancers.
Heretic!!!

Now, where did I leave those torches and pitchforks?

[Heather2007]

Oh, for christ's sake.

Deep connection happens in all styles. Dancing for each other happens in all styles.

Lack of connection to each other and to the music happens in all styles. Dancing for others instead of one's partner happens in all styles.


Good dancing, bad dancing, nuevo style, viejo style...it's all done by all people. There are great younger dancers out there, there are some really really crappy older dancers out there. (I know, I've danced with some of them...and they're some of the absolute worst I've encountered.)

I'm not saying that what you posted isn't what you've seen, Ampster. But I'll second the idea that you're a tad biased. Or, perhaps, it's just a Seattle thing, because it sure as hell doesn't work that way around here.

But can we, PLEASE, get away from this absurd notion that just because the dancing isn't close embrace/apilado/whatever, that the connection isn't as deep or intense, that the dancers aren't as mature, that the musicality isn't there as much (if at all), and all of the other usual nonsense that is usually lobbed at non close embrace/apilado/whatever dancers? PLEASE?!?!

Good dancers are good dancers. Bad dancers are bad dancers. They occur in all situations, in all walks of life, in all venues, to all music, at all ages. Anything else is just so much bias and prejudice and preconceived notions and stereotyping.

And...yes...I do dance and enjoy everything. All embraces, all music.

You beat me to it :rocker:

[dchester]

Deep connection happens in all styles. While that may be true for you, it's not true for me.

Lack of connection to each other and to the music happens in all styles. Dancing for others instead of one's partner happens in all styles. Agreed

Good dancing, bad dancing, nuevo style, viejo style...it's all done by all people. There are great younger dancers out there, there are some really really crappy older dancers out there. (I know, I've danced with some of them...and they're some of the absolute worst I've encountered.) Agreed

But can we, PLEASE, get away from this absurd notion that just because the dancing isn't close embrace/apilado/whatever, that the connection isn't as deep or intense, that the dancers aren't as mature, that the musicality isn't there as much (if at all), and all of the other usual nonsense that is usually lobbed at non close embrace/apilado/whatever dancers? PLEASE?!?! For me, the connection is different. But I agree that Nuevo certainly can have musicality. (I'd like to see someone try to make the claim that Chicho doesn't have excellent musicality).

Good dancers are good dancers. Bad dancers are bad dancers. They occur in all situations, in all walks of life, in all venues, to all music, at all ages. Anything else is just so much bias and prejudice and preconceived notions and stereotyping. Art (like dancing) is full of bias. I very much dislike Monet, but I know that others really like his style of painting. The same applies to dance styles. Some things will create a reaction in one person, but not in everyone. If someone says they don't feel the same connection, it likely is true for them, but that doesn't mean it's true for you.

FWIW, I was more into the "steps" (as I call it), when I first started on this tango trek, but along the way I started to understand this "connection" thing, and it is changing some of my preferences. Fortunately, I still can enjoy dancing for the steps, but it is a different feeling that I get from it Actually, when I'm having a good night, I try to incorporate parts of both in my dance (I just wish I had more good nights where I feel confident enough to do that).

Basically, I want my partner to enjoy the dance, but I want to enjoy it too.

And...yes...I do dance and enjoy everything. All embraces, all music. While I can't say that I enjoy all music, I do enjoy certain songs from all styles of music. Possibly that is what you are saying as well.

[Ampster]

I agree with Peaches' post completely...except for one thing. Nowhere in this thread has Amp said that he believes one to be better than the other...therefore, no bias intended. Two posters have mentioned this, but what he actually said was that both were beautiful.

Yeah! :notworth:

Was Angel the only one who understood what I wrote, without having to interpret/re-interpret, put meaning, take out of context...? I meant it to be read verbatim.

I'm sorry, Amp, if I've offended you.

No offense taken, Peaches. You can never do me wrong :friend:

Heretic!!!

Now, where did I leave those torches and pitchforks?

Dude, chill! :cool:

You beat me to it

:bkick: Heehee..

[Angel HI]

Again, I have to say that Peaches' post http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=601286&postcount=7 is "spot on".

Connection is a trilogy: connection to the music; connection to the partner; and, most importantly, the internal connection to the dance. The last one should actually be the first because if one doesn't feel/connect with the dance, they are not able to acheive the other 2. and, if either one is missing, connection is lost, regardless of whether it is traditional or nuevo or whatever.

[Peaches]

Was Angel the only one who understood what I wrote, without having to interpret/re-interpret, put meaning, take out of context...? I meant it to be read verbatim.No, Angel wasn't the only one. I know what you meant, but it doesn't square at all with what I've seen. Could be location differences. *shrug* I've only danced in DC and Baltimore. It did seem, though, a tad biased.

Not all responses, I don't think, were in direct response to your OP.

[Ampster]

...Could be location differences. *shrug* I've only danced in DC and Baltimore. It did seem, though, a tad biased.


Yes, I agree. What can be perceived as my biase could be with based on the location. I based my observations on what I've seen in Seattle, and San Francisco.

Both cities have highly developed AT communities where milongas cater to a particular demographic. Yes, there are overlaps. But, when one has the opportunity to visit them all, one would see where I based my observations from.

[opendoor]

Hi, you know I believe and I posted it before that the cleft gapes between parallel and V-frame dancing because it demands on different moving systems respectively.

[newbie]

Nowhere in this thread has Amp said that he believes one to be better than the other...therefore, no bias intended

Sometimes a bias is so common that people don't see it any more as such.

Biased:

Viejo: (Old) It looks that here, people dance for the connection and for one's partner other more than anything else.

Nuevo: In this scenario, it looks as though they dance and perform for each other and the audience. The connection is more physical.

Possibly biased but less biased in any case:

Viejo: (Old) It looks that here, people don't dance. Legs are used to step - or to stop stepping - and the other parts of the body don't move at all.

Nuevo: it looks as though they dance. Like in most other dances, there is some speed and motion.

[Steve Pastor]

Now, that's biased!

A careful read of Ampster's original post shows a remarkable degree of nuance. He writes that
"venues seem to gravitate", rather than "venues are",
"Generally composed of", rather than "consists of",
"It looks that here", rather than, "her we find"
"Generally composed of younger dancers, or dancers who prefer to dance young and vigorous." rather than "young peole dance this, and old people dance that"

Lemme tell you, the weather had been nice here and I'd been riding my bike to work. As I was sitting at a stop sign, waiting for traffic to clear, I was nearly run over by a young woman who was cutting the corner and apparently didn't see me with my bright blue shirt and red helmet. Thank God she saw me, slammed on her brakes, and cut the wheel, or I might not be here now.
A few days later, another young woman gave me the finger as she turned right in front of me, as I again waited at the same intersection.

Now, while this doesn't mean that all young women are careless, rude drivers (also in the last week or two, a middle age guy in a pick up truck tried to intimidate me while I was crossing WITH THE LIGHT in a clearly marked CROSSWALK, and gestured angrily at me), the fact is that when you go to buy automobile insurance, if you are young, you will pay more.

When I cash in my chips and buy an annuity, the younger I am, the less money they will give me per year, because I'll probably live longer.

Still, no one likes to be "stereotyped" .

I think Ampster did about all you could do to be diplomatic about his observations. I've found that there are subjects where, no matter how carefully you try to talk or write about it, you will inevitably get an adverse reaction.
This subject is one of them.

[Ampster]

I give up... Read into my OP, and over-analyze away! :doh:

[dchester]

I give up... Read into my OP, and over-analyze away! :doh:
:uplaugh:

ROTFLMAO

[Ampster]

I think Ampster did about all you could do to be diplomatic about his observations. I've found that there are subjects where, no matter how carefully you try to talk or write about it, you will inevitably get an adverse reaction.
This subject is one of them.

Thank you for the support Steve, I appreciate that. :rocker:

[Angel HI]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Pastor http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=603003#post603003)

I think Ampster did about all you could do to be diplomatic about his observations. I've found that there are subjects where, no matter how carefully you try to talk or write about it, you will inevitably get an adverse reaction.
This subject is one of them.


Thank you for the support Steve, I appreciate that. :rocker:

Yeah, Amps, we tried. :)