Variations of musicality in AT

[Ampster]

I started a string in the AT video section. It was about the different ways of dancing to Poema (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=601569#post601569).

Angel suggested that I start another thread about musicality. Brilliant!

So, based on the various different ways and styles one can dance to Poema, here are a few video clips.

Observe the differences of their interpretations of the same Tango piece. All of them beautiful to watch.


Jennifer Batt & Ney Melo (Villa Urquiza)

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Pgbt0oD-MnA&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Pgbt0oD-MnA&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


Tete Rusconi and Rosana Remón (Milonguero)

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/DeJUTmKFe_g&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/DeJUTmKFe_g&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


Chicho Frumboli & Eugenia Parilla (Nuevo)

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/tGZv6rSRvTo&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tGZv6rSRvTo&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Natacha Poberaj & Fabian Peralta (Salon)

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/7WK81lsSFto&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/7WK81lsSFto&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[bordertangoman]

I have to say I like Chicho and Eugenia's version best: she's doing lovely things with her feet and he's moving to all the little nuances in the music. the nuevo aspect is fairly restrained.

[Angel HI]

Thanks for taking me up on this. I believe that this thread could be one of the best in discussing, realizing, and learning about musicality because we have right in front of us several interpretations (variations of not just styles, but musicality, as well).

Re BTM, I don't know if I like either over another...I like/dance them all. Since, I have studied/taught this so profoundly, I'll let you gys have at it first.

OK, really, I don't want to be the first one to get his head cut off. http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/characters/character0036.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=characters/character0036.gif)

[bordertangoman]

Thanks for taking me up on this. I believe that this thread could be one of the best in discussing, realizing, and learning about musicality because we have right in front of us several interpretations (variations of not just styles, but musicality, as well).

Re BTM, I don't know if I like either over another...I like/dance them all. Since, I have studied/taught this so profoundly, I'll let you gys have at it first.

OK, really, I don't want to be the first one to get his head cut off. http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/characters/character0036.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=characters/character0036.gif)

Okay I will clarify as to why I like it. It isn't to do with the dance style as I think certainly the others are also danced beutifully. If you take the first minute of the song Chicho is picking up on the melody of the violin which forms about 30 seconds of introduction; then the music goes into some stronger punchy phrases and chicho picks up on all these; then the singer comes in with his soft melody. At then of ech siging phrase there are three piano notes (staccato in relation to the lyricalness of everything else) AND Chicho marks these with his own movements. The music (IMO) has three levels: the sininging the beat, and the little phrases played by the bandoneon. Chicho is using all three at different times and I find it really clear to what he's dancing to.

I've also seen him dance to El Porteno to the cadence of the singer maybe you can use that as another sample?

[Ampster]

Regardless of what style or rhythm each couple employ, they all dance in "Phrases." If you listen to the music (Poema), and count slowly 1--2--3--4--5--6--7--8, the song is broken up into "phrases."

They do not Bulldoze, nor hurry through the dance.

Within the phrases, the leader, leads combinations of movements, all with their own panache, signature, style. But, all starting and stopping 'In-tune' and within said 'Phrase.'

This 1 to 8 thing of course will vary depending on the music. Some tangos slower. Some faster. Valses will be different. Milongas will definitely be faster. Regardless, they will all have phrasing.

[bastet]

I agree with both of you. In the interpretations I liked best, it was easy to see the emphasis on the phrasing...and of course, plus Chicho's had plenty of accenting of other instruments and melodies...with the added bonus that it's always fun to watch Eugenias feet (at least...that is what i am watching...the guys may be watching something else...) :)

On an added note...I like the way Chicho was dancing with Eugenia...the recent videos of him I have seen with new partners, I don't like. The dancing is much more "rough" and almost violent looking and doesn't have the quality of his dancing with Eugenia.

[dchester]

OK, really, I don't want to be the first one to get his head cut off. http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/characters/character0036.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=characters/character0036.gif)
OK, I'll be the first target. I really only liked two out of the four.

1st Place) Chicho & Eugenia
2nd Place) Ney & Jennifer

I liked the phrasing that these two (above) used. I didn't think the other two couples (at least not the leaders) had the same feel that I did for the song. Also, the timing seemed off in Fabian & Natacha's video at times.

[Angel HI]

Others besides Chicho are syncopating various options, and vascillating between melody, instrument, and mood. I agree that some seem to lead/follow better, but this isn't necessarily a musicality issue. Aside of personal feelings, what defines musicality? Is Chicho's syncopation better, musically, than Fabian's? Why/not? Jenn and Nelo didn't seem to offer much in the way of syncopated accentuation. Can there be musicality w/o syncopating and/or vascillating between instruments, melodies, etc.? Does this mean that they missed the musicality? As much as one can, let's refer to the vids in the replies so that all of us can "see" what you are referring to.

[Heather2007]

Question: What is Musicality or rather what are people's interpretation of it?

[newbie]

I like the Geraldine & Javier version (not displayed in this thread but available in the video section, "poema? poema"), danced in what seems to be a post-apocalyptic venue where everything and everybody is caked by dark-gray dust.

What I like is their Flamenco-alike approach. In flamenco the musician follows the dancer, not the other way like in most dances. Here, many times the adornos by G. or J. come before the corresponding musical element and it gives the effect that the music is responding to their moves.

[Zoopsia59]

At the moment I have to watch without the sound which kinda defeats the point.

[calandra]

Had it been any other song than Poema, I would say that Chico & Eugenia were the best. But while none of the 4 of them exactly captured the essence of the song for me, I'd probably have to vote for Ney & Jennifer 1st.

While in terms of musicality, one can analyze them technically in terms of steps and rhythm, to me, Poema is such a beautifully sad song that it has an extra dimension that is not well expressed through obviously choreographed interpretations (which I'd say most of these were).

I guess my issue with Chico & Eugenia was that they were perfect, flash and choreographed and didn't capture the longing expressed in the lyrics.


De aquel poema embriagador,
ya nada queda entre los dos,
doy mi triste adiós,
sentiras la emoción,
de mi dolor...
Of that one intoxicating poem,
nothing is left between us,
I give you my sad goodbye,
you’ll feel the emotion,
of my pain…

I think the best interpretations of this song are one's I've witnessed at random milongas where the song comes up unexpectedly, and those who really know and appreciate how beautiful the song is come together and dance it spontaneously and with the feeling it deserves. If you are using it for a demonstration or a performance, some of this is lost, I believe.

[Angel HI]

While in terms of musicality, one can analyze them technically in terms of steps and rhythm, to me, Poema is such a beautifully sad song that it has an extra dimension that is not well expressed through obviously choreographed interpretations .....

I guess my issue with Chico & Eugenia was that they were perfect, flash and choreographed and didn't capture the longing expressed in the lyrics.

IMO, you have introduced somethign else enitirely. Though, I understand completely what you mean, oen can not confuse interpretation with musiclaity, though similar they might be. Take Jazz or ballet for ex., this is why there is the stlye called lyrical. thsi interprets the dance based on the lyrics...not the musical interpretation (which is what most dancers, esp. non spanish speakers, are dancing to.

[bastet]

IMO, you have introduced somethign else enitirely. Though, I understand completely what you mean, oen can not confuse interpretation with musiclaity, though similar they might be. Take Jazz or ballet for ex., this is why there is the stlye called lyrical. thsi interprets the dance based on the lyrics...not the musical interpretation (which is what most dancers, esp. non spanish speakers, are dancing to.

Well - that is certainly a point. If you consider the voice another instrument, then you can look at it as yet another choice to make when dancing to a song and deciding what you are going to accent.

I think it can add an extra layer, by also adding on lyric interpretation, and lyrical interpretation being related to or another component in musicality (altough if I were dancing to something like Ain't Love a Kick in the Head....welll...let's stick with rhythmic interpretation please. :) ).

I think what is really interesting is that almost everyone seems to be in agreement of the favorites...or the couple that delivered the most visual expression of what they are hearing musically- Chicho and Eugenia and Ney and Jennifer...

The other couple that I really liked was Geraldine and Javier...but I can see wanting to explore other couples interpretations considering how revered they are (were).

[newbie]

I guess my issue with Chico & Eugenia was that they were perfect, flash and choreographed and didn't capture the longing expressed in the lyrics.


Not choreographed.

[Zoopsia59]

Ney and Jennifer. Something about their embrace/ connection/ movements captured a poignant quality that I didn't get from any of the others.

They kept it simple while still being musical, but it wasn't so much the "choreography" they used (I use quotes to mean that it probably wasn't choreographed, but the result is a permanent record of the steps they used) as it is something indefinable about the way I see them connect in this video. Yearning, heartbreaking... they really nailed the emotion I felt in the music far more than the others.

[Zoopsia59]

As for the others, maybe it was my jerky playback, but there were places where Tete's partner didn't quite seem to know what to do or what he was leading/expecting. Fabian seemed to have certain "moves" that he then tried to find a place to use ("I've got this thing I do... maybe I can put it in here...") rather than being driven simply by the feel of the moment. Chico... just not wowed... sorry... (I know... right up there with criticising Geraldine.. I'll slink back off to the doghouse now...)

For me it wasn't even a close call... Ney and Jennifer all the way.

[Zoopsia59]

Chico... just not wowed... sorry... (I know... right up there with criticising Geraldine.. I'll slink back off to the doghouse now...)
.

Ok... I watched Chico again, and I think part of my ambivalence towards this performance comes from the fact the the camera person thought their feet were the most important part of the show. Too often, the video sacrifices their upper bodies or heads to emphasize the feet.

When I refuse to be tricked into looking only at the feet and watching the whole thing, I like it better.

I still wish some of those volcadas had been drawn out to take perhaps twice as long, the way some of N&J's moves are exquisitely slow (drawing you in more by not rushing everything... I think the bittersweet yearning I feel in N&J comes from those drawn out moves) and I wish Chico didn't look at the floor the whole time, but all in all, after a 2nd viewing, I like it more than before (but still nowhere as much as N&J)

[bastet]

Not choreographed.

I didn't think Chicho choreographed..wasn't sure...

[newbie]

I'd say none of the demos by anyone in the five vids is choreographed either.

[dchester]

As for the others, maybe it was my jerky playback, but there were places where Tete's partner didn't quite seem to know what to do or what he was leading/expecting. Fabian seemed to have certain "moves" that he then tried to find a place to use ("I've got this thing I do... maybe I can put it in here...") rather than being driven simply by the feel of the moment. Chico... just not wowed... sorry... (I know... right up there with criticising Geraldine.. I'll slink back off to the doghouse now...)

For me it wasn't even a close call... Ney and Jennifer all the way. That's interesting. I agreed with everything you said, with the exception of the comments about Chicho. I feel his musicality is excellent.

[calandra]

IMO, you have introduced somethign else enitirely. Though, I understand completely what you mean, oen can not confuse interpretation with musiclaity, though similar they might be. Take Jazz or ballet for ex., this is why there is the stlye called lyrical. thsi interprets the dance based on the lyrics...not the musical interpretation (which is what most dancers, esp. non spanish speakers, are dancing to.


Perhaps, my point was not clear. I am not suggesting interpreting the lyrics in any way. I am merely suggesting that there is an additional element to musicality than just interpreting the rhythm of a song with different steps. Ultimately, music is just notes strung together in a rhythm, and dance is a series of steps. These can gel together or not. But I believe that true 'musicality' is more than a sum of the parts, and more than just an analysis of whether a volcada is in the right place, or the feet movement are nice.

I suppose the difficulty is that, as Heather suggests, we do not have an agreed upon definition. It's a bit like obscenity 'I know it when I see it' - and I think that you are absolutely right to try to pin down some objective factors, like rhythmic interpretion, etc. I agree all those things are important. I'm just saying that there's also an extra 'je ne sais quois' to true musicality (and I'm afraid this will always retain an element of subjectivity).

It's quite interesting, I think, that one can listen to 20 different recordings of something like a Beethoven symphony (and as a clasically trained muscisian, I've probably sat through hundreds in my day in rehearsals, etc) and maybe one out of 20 will make you sit up and say 'WOW' and the rest of them will sound like notes being played by a skillful orchestra. To me, it is this extra element that makes an interpretation of music, whatever it is very special.

My point in quoting the lyrics is this: one of the things that gives tango music its special quality is its history, its colour, and it is 'patterned' music - it's lyrics. While it is certainly possible to give an inspired interpretation without studying these things, I believe that there is much to be gained by understanding (and hence subconsciously 'interpreting') this element as well, and that it has a place in a thread on musicality. I'm not saying that the only person who can give a proper 'musical' interpretation to tango is an octogenarian Argentine (quite the contrary).But I do feel that it is quite sad that many dancers may not take an interest in the music itself (certainly I've drawn some blank looks at a milonga if I exclaim 'Oh that's Canaro, or 'I love Miguel Calo's interpretation of this song' - and probably rightly so), as I belive this is an important element of appreciating the dance. One only has to watch Cafe Los Maestros to see how much true 'musicality' in a live performance can enhance one's understanding and appreciation.

Most professional tango dancers probably have an amazing understanding of all of the nuances behind the music, it's history, and its interpretation. How they express this is partly objective and partly subjective. And sometimes this can be very hard to capture in a video on U-Tube.

Ok, I've said my piece - back to the discussion on more objective elements. :rolleyes:

[bordertangoman]

Perhaps, my point was not clear. I am not suggesting interpreting the lyrics in any way. I am merely suggesting that there is an additional element to musicality than just interpreting the rhythm of a song with different steps. Ultimately, music is just notes strung together in a rhythm, and dance is a series of steps. These can gel together or not. But I believe that true 'musicality' is more than a sum of the parts, and more than just an analysis of whether a volcada is in the right place, or the feet movement are nice.

I suppose the difficulty is that, as Heather suggests, we do not have an agreed upon definition. It's a bit like obscenity 'I know it when I see it' - and I think that you are absolutely right to try to pin down some objective factors, like rhythmic interpretion, etc. I agree all those things are important. I'm just saying that there's also an extra 'je ne sais quois' to true musicality (and I'm afraid this will always retain an element of subjectivity).

It's quite interesting, I think, that one can listen to 20 different recordings of something like a Beethoven symphony (and as a clasically trained muscisian, I've probably sat through hundreds in my day in rehearsals, etc) and maybe one out of 20 will make you sit up and say 'WOW' and the rest of them will sound like notes being played by a skillful orchestra. To me, it is this extra element that makes an interpretation of music, whatever it is very special.

My point in quoting the lyrics is this: one of the things that gives tango music its special quality is its history, its colour, and it is 'patterned' music - it's lyrics. While it is certainly possible to give an inspired interpretation without studying these things, I believe that there is much to be gained by understanding (and hence subconsciously 'interpreting') this element as well, and that it has a place in a thread on musicality. I'm not saying that the only person who can give a proper 'musical' interpretation to tango is an octogenarian Argentine (quite the contrary).But I do feel that it is quite sad that many dancers may not take an interest in the music itself (certainly I've drawn some blank looks at a milonga if I exclaim 'Oh that's Canaro, or 'I love Miguel Calo's interpretation of this song' - and probably rightly so), as I belive this is an important element of appreciating the dance. One only has to watch Cafe Los Maestros to see how much true 'musicality' in a live performance can enhance one's understanding and appreciation.

Most professional tango dancers probably have an amazing understanding of all of the nuances behind the music, it's history, and its interpretation. How they express this is partly objective and partly subjective. And sometimes this can be very hard to capture in a video on U-Tube.

Ok, I've said my piece - back to the discussion on more objective elements. :rolleyes:

hmm I agree with what you say; but aesthetics, interpretation and tastes change; take as analogy the Friezes from the acroplis?) which are in the British Museum; these beautiful stone carvings were originally painted in bright colours; but we chose to see them in their pure sculpted form without this original adornment.

I think it is possible to disappear into an Umberto Eco black hole; in that in search of historical truth one runs into half truths, misconception and mythology. Is a Di Sarli orchestration with violins the "real" tango song if its composer wrote it for Bandoneon and Double Bass and guitar. Is Jalousie an authentic tango as it was composed by a Jacob Gade, a Dane;

its not worth it. Tango just gets reinvented in the ear of the dancer. Intellectual knowledge doesn't add to emotional interpretation IMO

[newbie]

(certainly I've drawn some blank looks at a milonga if I exclaim 'Oh that's Canaro, or 'I love Miguel Calo's interpretation of this song' - and probably rightly so)

Yunno, I've seen an AT teacher identifying a Vals only 20 seconds after its beginning. Not as far as identifying the name, just recognizing that it was a vals. To me the first 3 seconds had been enough to recognize "Desde el alma", which is actually a Vals, the A.T teacher was correct in this respect.
And this guy is an average local A.T teacher. And he's an argentine too. So, you can figure what is the level of musical knowledge among the mere dancers.

[Ampster]

(Credit: An article by Igor Polk, 2005 September 10 (http://www.virtuar.com/tango/articles/2005/musicality.htm))

Musicality in Tango Dance

So, it is improvisational. No rhythmical patterns ?

I always wondered why some people have good sense of rhythm, some not. I guess those who do not are better tango dancers - they do not follow outdated rhythmical patterns! They improvise! They stop in the middle of the musical rhythmical sequence and think what is the next step. Ah! They step outside of the right moment and call it rhythm improvisation! Ah-hm!

Somebody says: "it is improvisational - any step is possible next. And at any moment". Then what step is better? What moment is right? Is it dancing or mess?

Well, even if any step is possible as the next one, there are patterns in the tango dance. You can not just stop and think. There are patterns. Dance is structured like everything in life. A stable stepping sequence is a figure of the dance. It is not artificial, the parts of the sequence just fit together very nicely: it is natural. And figures have certain rhythm patterns on their own.

Music also has rhythmical patterns. There are very specific rhythmical tango phrases. So we have 2 source of rhythm: music and your dance. I understand musicality as a complex skill, but there is one thing it includes for sure: an ability to put current dancing pattern on top of the current musical phrase. If they match, it is great. It is called musicality. If they do not - it is a mess.

Here are levels of musicality skill:

1. At first, musicality can be viewed as the ability to follow the rhythm very well. Then to interpret rhythm changes in music which are abundant in tango and are the characteristic of the dance.

2. Then comes the ability to emphasize a musical phrase: divide the dance into little parts with the beginning, development, and the finale in accordance with similar patterns in music. The beginning is not necessarily has to be aligned with the very first step of a figure and end with the last one. This is impossible to do in an improvised dance. On the contrary! One can easy make any step be starting or final by putting an emphasis on that, slowing it down, making a pause. To follow the music, one does not have to invent new steps all the time. And predict the figures. It is only enough to be able to lead steps slower or faster, that is all. And new will be born. Music already curries a blueprint for that.

Have you noticed? I mean it includes an ability to break memorized figures! This is not as difficult as one might think.

Also here comes the ability to emphasize small rhythmical variations, individual notes, including slightly off-beat ones. That is where the knowledge of micro-technique and asynchronous dancing with different parts, total "dissociation" comes into play. Every step can be unique!

3. Then comes an interaction with individual instruments and the orchestra as a whole. You dance your own musical part along with that orchestra, asynchronously with other instruments ( of course, otherwise it would be 1. or 2. ). Your step is a note, even several notes. And you can even bend a string. You can support other parties or counterpose them. Off-beat dance comes to this category. And not only you! Your partner should be able to love it too..

For all that to happen, for a dance to be highly musical, the body parts have to be like other musical instruments played along with the orchestra. Yes, not only one instrument, but many: legs dance one part, torso dance another one,.. Slow or fast, jazzy or classical is pretty much up to dancers.

The body itself should dance - it is musicality! Legs, torso, feet, arms, hands, the head, eyes, lips, everything dances. The spirit dances too! But now we are talking mostly about steps.

In an improvisational dance there is no place for thinking. The spinal brain figures it out. Let it use the opportunities appearing in a dance on every millisecond. The body and soul is totally incorporated into your partner's and your own movements as a couple, in the music, in the surrounding place and other dancers around.

To be very musical, knowing what is musical is not enough. One has to have skill and abilities to variate figures, individual steps, and parts of steps in all possible ways. But as a simplest way, just slowering the dance, and changing the direction in preparation to the next move is enough.

To be highly musical does not require complex steps. But as far as I know, musicality is valued as the most important dancing quality beside the ability to lead and follow well.

And I still did not answer to the question what step is better next. The one which complements the musical phrase, of course, but not only. Surprise. A step which surprises. That is a powerful instrument of making the dance interesting and your partner screaming with excitement!

[Angel HI]

I'm just saying that there's also an extra 'je ne sais quois' to true musicality (and I'm afraid this will always retain an element of subjectivity).

With very minor exception, I must say that I agree w/ your entire post http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=603853&postcount=22 (omitted b/c of length), particularly this line. I have been trying to teach the same thing, for years.

[Angel HI]

(Credit: An article by Igor Polk, 2005 September 10 (http://www.virtuar.com/tango/articles/2005/musicality.htm))

Musicality in Tango Dance

Ampster.....Beautiful post. Thanks for sharing. Again, I didn't agree w/ every word, but the article is one of the best that I have seen. Perhaps, there is a bias b/c I have been tryig to teach this concept of dance for years. AT dancers understand it better than BR dancers, yet really it is the same.

[bordertangoman]

okay for a different take on musicality have a look at the 5Rhythms entry on wikedpedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5Rhythms

musicality is made of 5 elements:
flowing
staccato
chaos
lyrical
stillness

and http://www.juicyfruitsdance.co.uk/5rhythms.html for a better explanation

[Angel HI]

Have known of these for a long time, and have struggled with accepting them for almost as long. Albeit good stuff, and good input into the discussion, IMO, acknowledging crossover between the two, this has always had more to do with movement and less to do with musicality, although I understand Gabrielle's point/s.

[bordertangoman]

Have known of these for a long time, and have struggled with accepting them for almost as long. Albeit good stuff, and good input into the discussion, IMO, acknowledging crossover between the two, this has always had more to do with movement and less to do with musicality, although I understand Gabrielle's point/s.

What I seem to be struggling to get across; is there are other concepts than rhythm that one can use to dance tango to.
As an example the footwork to a viennes waltz is in time to the music but the movement is circular and flowing.

[dchester]

What I seem to be struggling to get across; is there are other concepts than rhythm that one can use to dance tango to.
As an example the footwork to a viennes waltz is in time to the music but the movement is circular and flowing. I think I understand what you are saying, but I'm just not sure if it's really the types of steps (ie. circular vs linear) that influence the musicality as much as how the steps are done. Couldn't walking be just as flowing as a turn? Now maybe something like a leg wrap, or a pasada would work better (musically) than stepping at certain places in a song.

[bastet]

I think I understand what you are saying, but I'm just not sure if it's really the types of steps (ie. circular vs linear) that influence the musicality as much as how the steps are done. Couldn't walking be just as flowing as a turn? Now maybe something like a leg wrap, or a pasada would work better (musically) than stepping at certain places in a song.

This is how I tend to think in terms of musicality. No one step has any inherant musicality in it, you shape it to the music you are hearing.

The voice is another element of the music and a lot of tango music is sad and has unhappy lyrics, so accenting that aspect sometimes is good to do, but I think if I had to dance every tango that way to be considered musical, I'd be annoyed. (Maybe that's why I like milonga best, who knows)

It's easy enough to take any step and change it's dynamic. For example- turns tend to flow...but you could reshape them to make them sharp and choppy. Even ganchos can be done slowly and softly (my other half always calls that a "Nuevo" style gancho) instead of in their usual sharp accent form. It all boils down to learning how to reshape what you are dancing instead of being locked in to one idea of how something should be done.

But changing the dynamics of steps is a different conversation than musicality anyway, the result of doing that affects musicality, but the steps themselves don't..

[Angel HI]

What I seem to be struggling to get across; is there are other concepts than rhythm that one can use to dance tango to.

I feel that I understand you well....

I think I understand what you are saying, but I'm just not sure if it's really the types of steps (ie. circular vs linear) that influence the musicality as much as how the steps are done. Couldn't walking be just as flowing as a turn?

...is, I believe, a better way of saying it.

[Shelby]

It is interesting that Fabian dances most of the song stepping on the upbeat.

[Shelby]

Tete also takes the first step of the demo on the upbeat, and then switches to the downbeat.

[Angel HI]

Shelby,

Welcome to the DF. You will find much good advice here regardless of your genre. See you on the boards.

[spot]

I didn't think Chicho choreographed..wasn't sure...

I have heard many people make the assumption that Nuevo is choreographed. The only specifcally Nuevo demostrations I've seen (i.e. the dancers said so beforehand) were improvised.

Is there a confusion between Nuevo and Show Tango? Or is it just me being confused?

[bastet]

I have heard many people make the assumption that Nuevo is choreographed. The only specifcally Nuevo demostrations I've seen (i.e. the dancers said so beforehand) were improvised.

Is there a confusion between Nuevo and Show Tango? Or is it just me being confused?

I have a feeling it's becasue Nuevo has a lot of quite "fancy" moves that people tend to think can't be led rather than confusion between the two. But of course- plenty of it can be led spontaneously, even if it looks "fancy".

I'd always been made to understand that most people who really get in to Nuevo actually prefer the spontenaity aspect and tend to not choreograph.

[bordertangoman]

I have a feeling it's becasue Nuevo has a lot of quite "fancy" moves that people tend to think can't be led rather than confusion between the two. But of course- plenty of it can be led spontaneously, even if it looks "fancy".

I'd always been made to understand that most people who really get in to Nuevo actually prefer the spontenaity aspect and tend to not choreograph.

choreograph? quesque c'est?

[Angel HI]

I have heard many people make the assumption that Nuevo is choreographed. The only specifcally Nuevo demostrations I've seen (i.e. the dancers said so beforehand) were improvised.

Is there a confusion between Nuevo and Show Tango? Or is it just me being confused?

I have a feeling it's becasue Nuevo has a lot of quite "fancy" moves that people tend to think can't be led rather than confusion between the two. But of course- plenty of it can be led spontaneously, even if it looks "fancy".

Absolutely correct on both accounts.

[Zoopsia59]

Everytime I read this thread (or one of the others about rhythm or counting or syncopation that we've had) I am reminded of the movie The Turning Point.

The young ballerina get yelled at by the choreographer about her overly emotional interpretation of his piece and tells her to just count it. She says she doesn't count. He asks "So how do you know what to do when?" and she replies:

"I feel it. With the Music. And I make it fit"

Some of the posts on these threads all make it sound so hard and studious and complicated and requiring of some sort of music background. I have no idea what some of you are even talking about with the counts (and believe it or not I studied voice and several instruments when I was younger). And yet I get complimented on my musicality.

I feel it. With the Music. And I make it fit.
Try it sometime...

[bafonso]

Zoopsia59, I agree that feeling is the most important part. While we can analyze it when not dancing for very useful purposes, when dancing, one has to feel it more than anything...

Why are people worried if it's choreographed? I normally see this issue raised and more often than not, I do not see the relevance.

Anyone could choreograph a dance similar to Chicho's poema and no one would dance it like him. very few would probably be so enjoyable to watch doing those same moves. Gustavo Naveira publicly admits to working hard at practicing and choreographing demos, etc. It's irrelevant to the greater aspects of what makes a great dancer be great. It takes a bit to be able to notice the subtleties in a dancer that indicate if he/she feels great and is indeed great. Far more than doing flashy choreographed stuff that anyone can do if they spend enough hours on it.

[Angel HI]

Everytime I read this thread (or one of the others about rhythm or counting or syncopation that we've had) I am reminded of the movie The Turning Point.

The young ballerina get yelled at by the choreographer about her overly emotional interpretation of his piece and tells her to just count it. She says she doesn't count. He asks "So how do you know what to do when?" and she replies:

"I feel it. With the Music. And I make it fit"

So great. ! http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/happy/happy0065.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=happy/happy0065.gif)

Zoopsia59, I agree that feeling is the most important part.

Why are people worried if it's choreographed? I normally see this issue raised and more often than not, I do not see the relevance. It's irrelevant to the greater aspects of what makes a great dancer be great.

There is much truth to this. The problem is not a dance one Baf, it's a BR/DS one. Over the years, these genres have deteriorated to a lot of choreographed routines with less and less connection to music/partner. AT and BR can be choreographed, and yet musical, and led/followed.

A choreographer in a B'way show told us once that the "trick" was...is to make it look and feel "not choreo'd".

[Heather2007]

A choreographer in a B'way show told us once that the "trick" was...is to make it look and feel "not choreo'd".

Absolutely. And of course, most people treading the boards of Broadway, the London West End stage etc have acting experience as well as dance. The troups in tango shows are dancers and nothing more. And so they dance their choreographed passion with no "Method" being applied and thus leave me (the audience) feeling a little robbed of the journey that I was hoping I would be a part of. A choreographed piece I recently saw at a milonga, although technically brilliant I viewed as overly clinical and somewhat too hygienic to stir anything within me. The couple that followed them, however, (I'll name them as they are already entered onto my list for being my favourite teachers - Anelia & Marcello). They performed 3 unchoreographed pieces and the passion and joy as well their legendary comic humour which they always bring to the class was simply dripping. She danced with her eyes closed and with a huge grin on her face. And he ...well....he just adored her.