View Full Version : NDCA bronze 25% open work restriction enforced?
From the NDCA rule book, page 44, line 24 (for waltz, similar restriction for foxtrot and viennese, though none for tango):
"Open work may not comprise more than 25% of any routine"
Do you think this is generally adhered to, and if not, have you seen it enforced?
samina
09-23-2008, 11:52 AM
josh, in what context do you mean? how does bronze fit into this equation...?
and123
09-23-2008, 12:17 PM
I believe he's referring to American style, where "open" means "separation of partners". Often there is no complete separation allowed at Bronze. Waltz: open break, underarm turn OK (still retaining hold with one hand). Free spin not OK, complete separation; or only allowed for one measure.
etp777
09-23-2008, 12:35 PM
He's specified bronze because the NDCA handbook gives a list of allowable figures and then restrictions, for bronze. Silver and up it does not.
Also goes further to say:
"Partners may not completely separate. Open Work is limited to single or double hand holds, and may not last for more than eight (8) consecutive measures (24 beats)"
I can't say I've paid enough attention to konw whether it's realy enforced.
kathyt cupcake
09-23-2008, 12:50 PM
He's specified bronze because the NDCA handbook gives a list of allowable figures and then restrictions, for bronze. Silver and up it does not.
Also goes further to say:
"Partners may not completely separate. Open Work is limited to single or double hand holds, and may not last for more than eight (8) consecutive measures (24 beats)"
I can't say I've paid enough attention to konw whether it's realy enforced.
Enforcement probably depends on your invigilator and the comp organizers. Some comps are a little more hardcore about rules-- I have definitely attended collegiate comps where the invig/chairman of judges made very specific announcements about the separation rule above for bronze.
cornutt
09-23-2008, 01:19 PM
Interesting. I've never seen anyone invigliated for this at an NDCA comp. And I have seen some bronze-level routines that had a ridiculous amont of open work.
njdancegirl
09-23-2008, 01:26 PM
If you are staying within the step list of the bronze syllabus, will you really break the open work rule anyway? The bronze steps don't really allow for it IIRC...
hustleNflow
09-23-2008, 01:45 PM
Open work in bronze is generally met with a resounding "NO!" in my experience :shock:
However, I can think of at least one instance in competition that I was in open position for a measure or two (in bronze rhythm) and wasn't docked...my old ECS routine had a move where I stopped and shimmied, and I needed both hands free to do that (and no, partner did not have his two points of contact elsewhere to constitute a "closed" hold). It was only for maybe a few beats, and none of the judges objected. In fact, it was at OSB (which in my experience has a stricter panel than most other college comps) and I got 2nd! :lol:
The other instance I can think of (also in rhythm) is the chase turns in cha-cha. Kinda of an old-fashioned move, but I still see it from time to time in competition (I myself thought it looked silly, so I never danced it :oops:), without any objections.
fascination
09-23-2008, 03:34 PM
IME...it is at heritage, ohio and usdsc...
kathyt cupcake
09-23-2008, 05:43 PM
Enforcement probably depends on your invigilator and the comp organizers. Some comps are a little more hardcore about rules-- I have definitely attended collegiate comps where the invig/chairman of judges made very specific announcements about the separation rule above for bronze.
I should be a little more specific in that it was aimed at bronze smooth (no pattycake or progressive twinkles forever), not any of the other styles (which might have been invigilated all the same, but weren't singled out for this kind of announcement).
This would be a great question for avab! Pm him/her ;)
Terpsichorean Clod
09-23-2008, 06:36 PM
This would be a great question for avab! Pm him/her ;)
Her :)
Open work in bronze is generally met with a resounding "NO!" in my experience :shock:
I think you're thinking of "not touching," which is different from "open work," which for smooth would be "not in closed, outside partner, promenade, fallaway, or wing positions". And shame on you for breaking hold and shimmying, naughy girl! ;-)
The other instance I can think of (also in rhythm) is the chase turns in cha-cha. Kinda of an old-fashioned move, but I still see it from time to time in competition (I myself thought it looked silly, so I never danced it :oops:), without any objections.
Yeah I find the chase a bit cheesy but I do like the latin version with the man's foot change which makes it a bit more interesting, though it's silver.
If you are staying within the step list of the bronze syllabus, will you really break the open work rule anyway? The bronze steps don't really allow for it IIRC...
Underarm turn, reverse underarm turn, and butterfly (face-to-face, palm-to-palm, whatever you want to call it) alone can easily comprise more than 25% of the routine from what I've seen. At 30 mpm, assuming a minute and a half, we have 45 measures to dance. Only 12 measures need be open to technically break the rule. Dancing an underarm turn to face-to-face to reverse underarm to twinkle can take 8 measures of open work pretty easily. It's very conceivable that that gets repeated during the routine, and we wind up with an infraction.
Also, FADS and AM syllabi may have lots more open stuff, not familiar with their syllabi. From what I've seen, I'm pretty sure they do. Others would be able to answer this better than I.
Interesting. I've never seen anyone invigliated for this at an NDCA comp. And I have seen some bronze-level routines that had a ridiculous amont of open work.
Interesting isn't it? Exactly why I was asking, and I'm glad I'm not the only one who has thought that. Smooth routines, even for bronze, sometimes have so much open stuff that the couple never truly regains a closed hold.
By the way, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it should be enforced more really. Just curious as to if it's actually enforced at all, and why the 25% mark was selected.
etp777
09-24-2008, 05:32 AM
Also, FADS and AM syllabi may have lots more open stuff, not familiar with their syllabi. From what I've seen, I'm pretty sure they do. Others would be able to answer this better than I.
FADS Bronze Waltz 1: 6 measures, 2 open (1 UAT, 1 RUAT)
FADS Bronze Waltz 2: 4 measures minimum, 0 open
FADS Bronze Waltz 3: 6 measures, 0 open
FADS Bronze Waltz 4: 6 measures, 6 open (1 RUAT, 1 open break, 2 armloop twinkles, 2 uh, open twinkles?)
FADS Brzone Waltz 5: 6 measures, 3/4 open as I'm not sure how to classify 2nd measure. (Waterfall twinkles)
So First half of FADS advanced bronze syllabus, if you go straight 1-5, you'll dance 28 measures, and 11 or 12 will be open, definitely breaking the 25% rule.
FeetwithaBeat
09-24-2008, 08:57 AM
The rules were STRICTLY enforced at USDC this year. In fact the infractions were so bad the invigilators posted the NDCA ruls in the on-deck area. It is my understanding that this is coming trend at most NDCA comps.
Thanks for the breakdown etp!
I am so glad that the rules are being enforced more consistently... otherwise, what's the point of having them? Good stuff...
etp777
09-24-2008, 09:53 AM
Agreed, definitely like rule enforcement. At first blush, worried me looking at those steps (doing 2-5 for closed entries next month) and the 25% rule. Then realized that that's not a huge problem with syllabus, as helps force people to include more basic elements, and make sure they've mastered those.
Course, not an ndca comp, so I don't have to follow the rule anyway.
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