Becoming more responsive to the lead?

[jennyisdancing]

So, in my ongoing tango journey, I have encountered another stumbling block. A few of you may recall that I wasted months until I finally found a good teacher, took more months of lessons, and I feel like I can finally follow basic moves decently well.

However, another issue came up in a workshop this week with an out-of-town teacher.

There were a couple moves that started with the follower being led to project her leg out before moving. The teacher tried this with me and I didn't respond. He pointed to how he was lifting his chest upward, to indicate what I was supposed to respond to. I don't get this - I thought if, for example, the leader wants me to project my leg to the back, wouldn't he need to start sending his energy forward, rather than straight up? I just didn't feel anything directionally from his lead. What am I missing here?

Also, this teacher generally said I need to be more sensitive and quickly responsive to a slight or subtle lead, and that I shouldn't wait for the guy to make me move. But I guess I am just not ready yet to understand a subtle lead. As followers we keep getting told wait-wait-wait for the lead, so I wait until I am sure that I know what I am being led to do.

After more than a year struggling with tango, I am still feeling frustrated and I'm still not enjoying it most of the time. When I'm dancing, I sometimes feel like I'm taking a test, and I wonder what percentage of the questions I will get right. :(
I know that I have improved quite a bit - but obviously there is still something I'm not understanding. Any suggestions?

[newbie]

There were a couple moves that started with the follower being led to project her leg out before moving. The teacher tried this with me and I didn't respond. He pointed to how he was lifting his chest upward, to indicate what I was supposed to respond to.

Chest up can never lead a projection of the leg. Chest down or chest forward, maybe.
But possibly it was some kind of circular movement of the chest, starting up and ending down. Then the idea might be that you prepare for the projection when the chest goes up (making the leg free) and when the chest goes down the leg goes backward (or to the side)

A subtle lead is not a weird, unnatural, counter-intuitive lead. It's the same lead than usual, but softer.

[Me]

Yeah... I'm a bit mystified, myself. Can you describe more about the exercise, and about what type of embrace you were in? My best guess at this point is perhaps you were being led to shift your weight onto one leg to free up the other? Depending on the circumstances he would gently lift you and then place you onto one leg...

[Zoopsia59]

Chest up can never lead a projection of the leg. Chest down or chest forward, maybe.
But possibly it was some kind of circular movement of the chest, starting up and ending down. Then the idea might be that you prepare for the projection when the chest goes up (making the leg free) and when the chest goes down the leg goes backward (or to the side)

A subtle lead is not a weird, unnatural, counter-intuitive lead. It's the same lead than usual, but softer.

I agree with Newbie.. This is very strange.

To me, a deliberate "lifting up" lead is a cue to stay still because the leader is going to do something in which I am the anchor point or axis around which he is going to revolve. I would never intuitively extend my free leg simply because he lifts me straight up. Once I figure out what he is doing, I might embellish with my free leg while he does it, and that might take my leg somewhere. But I wouldn't expect to be lifted as a lead for reaching.

Similarly, a downward pressure is also often a cue to stay planted in the position you are in while the leader uses you as the rotational axis. What you do with the free leg during the rotation and whether you extend it depends on a variety of factors.

But lifting and expecting extension is pretty odd. For one thing, the more you are lifted, the LESS distance you can extend. So lifting as a cue to extend is VERY counterintuitive. Lifting sorta PREVENTS extending and is sometimes used for exactly that purpose to shorten the followers stride for a quicker step or in a crowded situation.

I wouldn't take this situation too much too heart.

[Me]

Yep. I agree. ;)

[Ampster]

He pointed to how he was lifting his chest upward, to indicate what I was supposed to respond to. I don't get this - I thought if, for example, the leader wants me to project my leg to the back, wouldn't he need to start sending his energy forward, rather than straight up? I just didn't feel anything directionally from his lead. What am I missing here?


jenny, I don't think you missed anything.

I agree that this is a bit strange. If I (as leader) lift up, then its probably a lead for something centered within an axis, like a calecita.

(As a leader) If I wanted you to do something with your leg, I woud expect you to wait, then move when I lead some movement to indunce your leg moving in the direction I'm trying to lead.


Also, this teacher generally said I need to be more sensitive and quickly responsive to a slight or subtle lead, and that I shouldn't wait for the guy to make me move. But I guess I am just not ready yet to understand a subtle lead. As followers we keep getting told wait-wait-wait for the lead, so I wait until I am sure that I know what I am being led to do.


Again, a bit strange... IMHO, it is the leader's job to adapt to the level of the follower. A good leader will be able to sense this (IME), and dance appropriately to that level, and be able to lead what is being led.

IMHO, you are also right with the ...wait, wait, wait for the lead.

After more than a year struggling with tango, I am still feeling frustrated and I'm still not enjoying it most of the time. When I'm dancing, I sometimes feel like I'm taking a test, and I wonder what percentage of the questions I will get right. :(
I know that I have improved quite a bit - but obviously there is still something I'm not understanding. Any suggestions?

I've a few women friends who have been in this same predicamnet you are in. My advice to them is:


Trust yourself: You already know the basics and more. You just need to apply it
Let go: Close your eyes, breathe, listen to the music, listen to your partner's body, trust, and just dance
Don't think too much: Trying to anticipate a move confuses both leader and follower. Wait, wait, wait....
Watch the good leaders: They are not necessarily the ones with the cool big moves. They are the ones who move well, and always have a connection with their partners, whoever they dance with. Try to get their attention and dance with them
Watch the good followers: Again, these are not necessarily the ones with the big cool moves. They are the ones who can make something so simple look so beautiful
Don't get hung up on moves: If you go to a milonga that is predominantly in "Close embrace," viejo, salon, milonguero, whatever, etc. You'll find the movements to be VERY simple. Its the delivery and musicality that makes a difference. The only time big loud moves will matter is when your dancing with someone "Showy," "Nuevo-esqe," etc. Also if you find yourself in a very milonga where the dancers predominantly dance this way
Dance with the leaders who dance "Simple" Its a beautiful thing
Dance a lot
Be patient: Steps are easy to learn. It the walking part that's hard and proficiency only comes with practice

[jennyisdancing]

Lifting sorta PREVENTS extending and is sometimes used for exactly that purpose to shorten the followers stride for a quicker step or in a crowded situation.


That's exactly what my teacher taught me - that when the leader lifts up, it is typically to keep the follower in one spot.

Yeah... I'm a bit mystified, myself. Can you describe more about the exercise, and about what type of embrace you were in? My best guess at this point is perhaps you were being led to shift your weight onto one leg to free up the other? Depending on the circumstances he would gently lift you and then place you onto one leg... No, the purpose was not to lead a weight shift. It was at the start of a move where the follower projects her left leg back but her weight remains on her right. The next part of the move involved the leader going partially around her, turning the follower's body to her left, while her weight is still on her right. So she ends up facing the other way, on her right foot, but now with her left leg projecting forward instead of behind her. That move was followed by a gancho which used the follower's left leg (which is why that leg had to remain free).

p.s. why is it that every time I try a tango workshop with so-called experts, I only end up confused? They all seem to contradict each other. I have not found this to be the case with West Coast Swing, where I have taken many workshops with top people and they are all on the same page with basic technique, even if their styles vary.

p.p.s. aside from the move in question, I really do also want to know generally how I develop better ability to respond to more subtle leads. Is it just a matter of time and experience, or are there certain skills/techniques I need to learn?

[Heather2007]

Trust yourself: You already know the basics and more. You just need to apply it

Let go: Close your eyes, breathe, listen to the music, listen to your partner's body, trust, and just dance
Don't think too much: Trying to anticipate a move confuses both leader and follower. Wait, wait, wait....
Watch the good leaders: They are not necessarily the ones with the cool big moves. They are the ones who move well, and always have a connection with their partners, whoever they dance with. Try to get their attention and dance with them
Watch the good followers: Again, these are not necessarily the ones with the big cool moves. They are the ones who can make something so simple look so beautiful
Don't get hung up on moves: If you go to a milonga that is predominantly in "Close embrace," viejo, salon, milonguero, whatever, etc. You'll find the movements to be VERY simple. Its the delivery and musicality that makes a difference. The only time big loud moves will matter is when your dancing with someone "Showy," "Nuevo-esqe," etc. Also if you find yourself in a very milonga where the dancers predominantly dance this way
Dance with the leaders who dance "Simple" Its a beautiful thing
Dance a lot
Be patient: Steps are easy to learn. It the walking part that's hard and proficiency only comes with practice
:applause: :applause::applause: - brill advice.

[dchester]

So, in my ongoing tango journey, I have encountered another stumbling block. A few of you may recall that I wasted months until I finally found a good teacher, took more months of lessons, and I feel like I can finally follow basic moves decently well.

However, another issue came up in a workshop this week with an out-of-town teacher.

There were a couple moves that started with the follower being led to project her leg out before moving. The teacher tried this with me and I didn't respond. He pointed to how he was lifting his chest upward, to indicate what I was supposed to respond to. I don't get this - I thought if, for example, the leader wants me to project my leg to the back, wouldn't he need to start sending his energy forward, rather than straight up? I just didn't feel anything directionally from his lead. What am I missing here?

Also, this teacher generally said I need to be more sensitive and quickly responsive to a slight or subtle lead, and that I shouldn't wait for the guy to make me move. But I guess I am just not ready yet to understand a subtle lead. As followers we keep getting told wait-wait-wait for the lead, so I wait until I am sure that I know what I am being led to do.

After more than a year struggling with tango, I am still feeling frustrated and I'm still not enjoying it most of the time. When I'm dancing, I sometimes feel like I'm taking a test, and I wonder what percentage of the questions I will get right. :(
I know that I have improved quite a bit - but obviously there is still something I'm not understanding. Any suggestions? I don't know who the teacher was, but based upon what you have posted, I would say that either he is a poor communicator, or he is wrong about what an up lead is supposed to signal as well as not knowing how to indicate intention for the follower to move her foot back. More likely, a poor communicator though.

While I agree, that it is desirable for a follower to be sensitive, that takes time to develop, and of course you would need to dance with the better leaders to really develop that skill.

IMO, it is the leader's job to make the leads clear, and he wasn't doing that for you (his bad). It's hard to believe that he thinks he can lead the same exact way for every follower. I'd be curious to know who the teacher was.

One suggestion, go to a practica and ask for feedback from people you dance with. A lot of people will say different things, but hopefully there will be some common elements in the feedback you receive.

[bastet]

That's exactly what my teacher taught me - that when the leader lifts up, it is typically to keep the follower in one spot.

No, the purpose was not to lead a weight shift. It was at the start of a move where the follower projects her left leg back but her weight remains on her right. The next part of the move involved the leader going partially around her, turning the follower's body to her left, while her weight is still on her right. So she ends up facing the other way, on her right foot, but now with her left leg projecting forward instead of behind her. That move was followed by a gancho which used the follower's left leg (which is why that leg had to remain free).

p.s. why is it that every time I try a tango workshop with so-called experts, I only end up confused? They all seem to contradict each other. I have not found this to be the case with West Coast Swing, where I have taken many workshops with top people and they are all on the same page with basic technique, even if their styles vary.

p.p.s. aside from the move in question, I really do also want to know generally how I develop better ability to respond to more subtle leads. Is it just a matter of time and experience, or are there certain skills/techniques I need to learn?

I think I can see a little where y'all might have been going in the class. If I am understanding what you described, then it kind of ends up something like what happens in what I call a "re-volcada" where you get twisted around your free leg so the lead is free to lead andother volcada.

To be honest, I've never heard of lift being involved with leg extension. That usually causes somethng else...don't know...was there a language barrier perhaps?

However, feeling the leads torso initiate movement (in close embrace) and allowing the leg to extend out of the way a little to make room for the step when it happens (without having moved your axis) sounds like it is something differnt from what y'all may have been doing.

One thing I'd like to share...seeing as you've had some major frustration with your lessons, is you may want to really start trying to understand the hallmarks of the different styles and what style your main teacher is teaching in. If your teacher is teaching milonguero style tango and you go to a Nuevo workshop (which is what the move y'all were doing sounds like) then you are going to be exposed to some differing ideas to what you are learning.

There is nothing wrong with this. They are all facets of tango. But until you can orient yourself in terms of going to a class and being able to accept that differnt styles of tango have some different technique associated with them from differing teaching styles, then you may continue to be frustrated. I know I was for the first year or so. It was like wandering around in a continual haze of stuff being taught from so many perspectives, I just didn't know what to do. Once I sorted out my own understanding of the differnt styles, I was able to start going to workshops (or nix the ones I didn't find relevant to what I wanted to work on at the time) and keep a more open and less confused mind about it since I could now see what style they might be working in and be able to accomodate or adjust without confusion.

If you recall the thread started by Ampster a month or so ago, he had been dancing Salon style and went to Milonguero style worshop and ended up having to relearn ideas about wakling, embracing and so forth...

My main piece of advice on teachers that contradict one another...my rule of thumb is if I can get 3 similar opinions from 3 separate masters on a subject, then I use that as a general rule...if I get less than that on something I have a question about, it's still up for grabs.

[jennyisdancing]

To be honest, I've never heard of lift being involved with leg extension. That usually causes somethng else...don't know...was there a language barrier perhaps?

However, feeling the leads torso initiate movement (in close embrace) and allowing the leg to extend out of the way a little to make room for the step when it happens (without having moved your axis) sounds like it is something differnt from what y'all may have been doing.There was no language barrier. I do think the lead was supposed to be more like what you describe, where basically the leader initiates movement, without allowing her weight to change. And yes, this teacher is more of a nuevo style person (although I watched some of his videos and saw that he could also do a traditional style). Still, shouldn't the fundamental principles of lead and follow be the same, even if the styles and steps are different? I mean, shouldn't a person be able to learn a foundation where they can take that to various tango communities and dance with others?

[Zoopsia59]

There was no language barrier. I do think the lead was supposed to be more like what you describe, where basically the leader initiates movement, without allowing her weight to change. And yes, this teacher is more of a nuevo style person (although I watched some of his videos and saw that he could also do a traditional style). Still, shouldn't the fundamental principles of lead and follow be the same, even if the styles and steps are different? I mean, shouldn't a person be able to learn a foundation where they can take that to various tango communities and dance with others?

We're all dying to know who this was... if you don't think its appropriate to say on the board, can you email?

[Steve Pastor]

Secret Handshake.

I know a guy who stayed in Buenos Aires for 3 months. When he came back he would instruct all of the women who would listen to him (He had been to Buenos Aires!) that, if he moved his right hand up on their back, then they were supposed to take little stutter steps to the side. "Firpo does it" was the expanantion.
Meanwhile, I had learned to lead this same movement as, doing quick steps,
step to the side
collect
lead a weight change
step to the side
etc.
(When leading this, it helps to use your torso a bit, but there we are getting pretty subtle.)

What would usually happen is that, because the women wouldn't collect, they would quickly fall behind in the moving sideways, and I would have to stop.
Meanwhile, if they had learned the Firpo Secret HandShake, they could "follow", and do, the exact same movement.

You will find that there is a huge amount of conflicting information coming from many different sources. You may chose to explore different styles, schools of thought, etc, simultaneously, or you may decide to concentrate on one style and get good at that.

"Also, this teacher generally said I need to be more sensitive and quickly responsive to a slight or subtle lead, and that I shouldn't wait for the guy to make me move."
Yeah, you will hear this a lot, because that's the way some (Many?) people like to dance.

Pushing up, pulling down, to keep someone in place as they rotate? Either way, if your center hasn't been moved enough to make you want to take a step, you stay in place.

AT, sort of like swing, has never been dictated and prescribed, as have the "ballroom" dances. And, when you look at the century plus history of the dance and the music, you can't help but notice how much it's changed, and how differently people dance it.
(Reminds me of how Dean Collins, when asked if he started West Coast Swing, is supposed to have said, "It's all Swing." (I read that as , No I didn't))

If you like that style, and want to learn that particular movement, add it to your vocabulary, especially if you dance with this instructor again, or someone who had this lesson with him. If you don't add it to your vocab, you've still learned something.

[bastet]

There was no language barrier. I do think the lead was supposed to be more like what you describe, where basically the leader initiates movement, without allowing her weight to change. And yes, this teacher is more of a nuevo style person (although I watched some of his videos and saw that he could also do a traditional style). Still, shouldn't the fundamental principles of lead and follow be the same, even if the styles and steps are different? I mean, shouldn't a person be able to learn a foundation where they can take that to various tango communities and dance with others?

Well- like most everyone has said, that lift to extend thing has most of us a little confused....and I'm sure we don't all dance in the same styles...so there is some basic foundational agreement there, I think...if I'd been in this person workshop, I'd have been all over that lift to extend thing asking questions....

So should we be able to go to anywhere and dane with anyone...sure...but what about this...If you go to a town where they dance mostly Apilado style (this is theoretical since that probably doesn't exist) and you don't know anything about apilado style and have never had instruction in it...do you think that only a "basic" foundation will prepare you for what you would need to do? Someone will have to adapt and it's usually the more experienced person. Same idea, differnt chapter...if you dance mainly close embrace and go to a place where Nuevo is predominant...same thing...so you think you are going to be immediately good at Nuevo styling?

I think a reasonably well trained person who has at least (knowingly) had some experience in the differnt style and aspects of tango (as opposed to random classes that they didn't understand what they were seeing) will be able to adapt to most situations...

People with less training, less exposure...will most likely have more problems...We have people in my own town who prefer milonguero style dancing and they have problems with the ladies who only do Salon because the ladies automatically go to a "v" because that's what they know, and they auto dissociate whether or not dissociation is being led because that's what they are used to...Could they go anywhere and dance...sure...but someone will have to adapt to them as they can't do the adapting. Same thing for leads who can't adapt.

[Zoopsia59]

. It was at the start of a move where the follower projects her left leg back but her weight remains on her right. The next part of the move involved the leader going partially around her, turning the follower's body to her left, while her weight is still on her right. So she ends up facing the other way, on her right foot, but now with her left leg projecting forward instead of behind her. That move was followed by a gancho which used the follower's left leg (which is why that leg had to remain free).
?

This sounds to me like a basic axis turn with a bit of choreography in the form of a "fouette" added.

How would you know to extend your leg behind you for the start? But what's more, how could you know that your leg should stay where it is so that it ends up in front as you turn to it, instead of holding it behind you in a turning arabesque or even collecting it in? How would you know?

Well, if it were choreographed that way, you would know!

Other than that? I suppose given that this sounds very neotango and your legs should be looser and more flow-ey, that you wouldn't be expected to put in effort in your hips to hold your leg behind you as you turn, but rather you would let it lag behind your body as the rotating occured which would leave it in front of you at some point. Then as it tried to catch up with the rotation, and the leader's leg gets in there as your leg tries to continue swinging, that a gancho could occur.

However, first you would have had to know to extend back at the start, and i'm not seeing anything in your description that would cause that. Then you would have to be aware of the stylistic differences in neo and traditional tango so that you wouldn't be trying to collect into a compact position. For neo, your hips really need to be loose and relaxed and the tight collecting at the knees or feet isn't as much a part of the style. Trailing (and open) free legs and less collecting is common. I could see the move happening as you describe him wanting under those circumstances.

But I don't think you not getting it means you still haven't learned anything in your year of effort.

I'm a firm believer in learning a traditional style with a good habit of collecting and controlling FIRST. Collecting makes you commit to weight changes. Too many people with an open free leg aren't actually doing a "style", they just are tentative about the step and aren't truly over their standing leg.

After you have really learned to control your balance, weight changes and collecting not just your feet, but your BODY, then you can do the open loose styles more easily because you'll know that your feet really aren't all that important in the collecting... its all about the body, axis and balance.

But its easier (I think) to train those important concepts into your dancing with a traditional style than trying to train your body to collect while leaving your leg open and loose. There's a reason that ballet dancers learn to pirouette in a pulled in position before they do it in arabesque just as there's a reason skaters learn simple scratch spins before camel spins.

[jennyisdancing]

I suppose given that this sounds very neotango and your legs should be looser and more flow-ey, that you wouldn't be expected to put in effort in your hips to hold your leg behind you as you turn, but rather you would let it lag behind your body as the rotating occured which would leave it in front of you at some point. Then as it tried to catch up with the rotation, and the leader's leg gets in there as your leg tries to continue swinging, that a gancho could occur.

However, first you would have had to know to extend back at the start, and i'm not seeing anything in your description that would cause that. Then you would have to be aware of the stylistic differences in neo and traditional tango so that you wouldn't be trying to collect into a compact position. For neo, your hips really need to be loose and relaxed and the tight collecting at the knees or feet isn't as much a part of the style. Trailing (and open) free legs and less collecting is common. I could see the move happening as you describe him wanting under those circumstances.

That's an excellent description.


But I don't think you not getting it means you still haven't learned anything in your year of effort.

I'm a firm believer in learning a traditional style with a good habit of collecting and controlling FIRST. Collecting makes you commit to weight changes. Too many people with an open free leg aren't actually doing a "style", they just are tentative about the step and aren't truly over their standing leg.

After you have really learned to control your balance, weight changes and collecting not just your feet, but your BODY, then you can do the open loose styles more easily because you'll know that your feet really aren't all that important in the collecting... its all about the body, axis and balance.

But its easier (I think) to train those important concepts into your dancing with a traditional style than trying to train your body to collect while leaving your leg open and loose. There's a reason that ballet dancers learn to pirouette in a pulled in position before they do it in arabesque just as there's a reason skaters learn simple scratch spins before camel spins.
I took ballet and I fully understand the concepts you are explaining. Don't think I've ever heard it described this way in a tango class, though.

Usually they tell just followers to collect because it puts you in a sort of 'neutral' position where you can be ready to follow any move that could come next, and not limit the leader's options.

I now understand from your explanation that the same can be accomplished without tightly collecting the feet into a fixed position; that makes perfect sense to me. Personally I would have preferred it explained that way from the start, because then I understand it on a conceptual level of what my body is supposed to accomplish, not just my feet.

[Angel HI]

Quote:
"But I don't think you not getting it means you still haven't learned anything in your year of effort.

I'm a firm believer in learning a traditional style with a good habit of collecting and controlling FIRST. Collecting makes you commit to weight changes. Too many people with an open free leg aren't actually doing a "style", they just are tentative about the step and aren't truly over their standing leg.

After you have really learned to control your balance, weight changes and collecting not just your feet, but your BODY, then you can do the open loose styles more easily because you'll know that your feet really aren't all that important in the collecting... its all about the body, axis and balance.

But its easier (I think) to train those important concepts into your dancing with a traditional style than trying to train your body to collect while leaving your leg open and loose. There's a reason that ballet dancers learn to pirouette in a pulled in position before they do it in arabesque just as there's a reason skaters learn simple scratch spins before camel spins."

This post from Zoops is a good one. Most everyone has replied w/ great insight/advice, so I won't reirerate.

What I am more concerned with is your posts re this varying of basics in AT not being present in dances lik WCS, and that when you dance AT, it just isn't enjoyable...or, as much as it could be. 2 things.....

1. Until very recently (comparatively), AT had no 'real' teaching sturcture at all (real meaning what most non argentine dancers are accustomed to). I remember in the early years, they, the argentines would spend hours on walking. some of this was necessary. but some of it was just b/c they really didn't know what else...how else to get it across. To them, it was just walking...what they do/dance everyday. One of them said to me once, "Why can't they (meaning non-argentines) get this? It's...just...so."
The point being that, still, many teach what works for them (like Steve's post about Firpo), rather than what would work for the follower in general.

Yes, there is a right/wrong way to do some things, btu we must know that no 2 persons walk the same, hence no 2 persons move the same, hence no 2 persons dance the same. Cecilia Gonzalez said in a w/s once, "Do not try to do what I do. Take what I teach you, and do what you do."

2. Please do not get so hung up on words, leads, techniques, shouldas, that you can't enjoy the dance. IMHO, AT will teach you almost everything that you need to know to be a good dancer. But, you have to come to know the essence of AT. You have to "learn" to not learn, but to relax. AT is not about "learning" what to do when he does...., or how to do a.... when the music goes.... . AT is about taking a deep breath before you begin; letting go; and, just move. Move internally. That's where the dancer is. Externally, you will find another great thing...the partnership. but, not before/until you find the dancer inside.

You are a dancer....ballet, etc. You can do this. Forget the rules. Return to basics. The joy will create the embellishments on its own when its time.

Sorry for the lengthy post, guys. Bonne chance, Cherie.

[Gssh]

p.s. why is it that every time I try a tango workshop with so-called experts, I only end up confused? They all seem to contradict each other. I have not found this to be the case with West Coast Swing, where I have taken many workshops with top people and they are all on the same page with basic technique, even if their styles vary.

p.p.s. aside from the move in question, I really do also want to know generally how I develop better ability to respond to more subtle leads. Is it just a matter of time and experience, or are there certain skills/techniques I need to learn?

Zoopsia: Thank for your explanation - I was thinking about the nuevo concept too, but your description is so much better than anything i could have written - now i almost want to take up ballet and figure skating to have a better framework to explain things!

About the P.S. I have long ago given up on trying to reconcile the basic technique advice given in workshops. In the end it all converges into a "gestalt" of what works. I usually think of the technique advice in a workshop as something that emphasizes the aspects of leaders and followers techinque that are neccessary to work with the theme of the workshop. And if these aspects are contradictory it just mirrors the constant negotiation that goes on in dancing. Like for example followers embellishments: On the one hand you could say that there is never space for an embellishment, because the leader will do weird stuff and break rythm all the time, on the other hand you could say that the leaders follow the music, and that most steps are pretty predictable, so there is room for an embellishment everywhere. If we are at a practica a follower will tell me if she wants to work on her awareness of the lead, or on her embellishment, and i will either throw every possible and impossible weirdness i can think of at her, or turn into a 8CB, 4 ochos, ocho cortado, repeat robot. In a real dance we communicate with out bodies, and almost miraculously (I am really grateful for the skill of the followers i dance with) we negotiate moment by moment if there is room for an embellishment, or not.

To the P.P.S. I like Ampstes advice! In my experience it is almost never the followers fault if the lead is "too subtle". I learned that at a workshop a long time ago with one of the old milongueros: He was showing a pretty complex step, and after demonstrating it with his partner he proceeded to demonstrate it with every single follower in the room. And they were all able to follow it. That certainly kept us leaders from complaining about the followers for the rest of the workshop :).
In my experience the worst following happens when a intermediate follower desperately tries to decipher subtle leads, especially when someone has taught them a ton of moves and "subtle leads" that are supposed to lead into these moves (the kind of teaching that happens in the middle of the dancefloor: "So now you have to put your foot there, and then you kick there, and embellish thus...."). I beleive that a good tango step should use geometry and momentum to make a particular move pretty much inevitable.

Gssh

[Gssh]

Please do not get so hung up on words, leads, techniques, shouldas, that you can't enjoy the dance. IMHO, AT will teach you almost everything that you need to know to be a good dancer. But, you have to come to know the essence of AT. You have to "learn" to not learn, but to relax. AT is not about "learning" what to do when he does...., or how to do a.... when the music goes.... . AT is about taking a deep breath before you begin; letting go; and, just move. Move internally. That's where the dancer is. Externally, you will find another great thing...the partnership. but, not before/until you find the dancer inside.

I always like to compare it with Martial arts: Nobody really fights by doing the forms. The indonesian martial arts have a concept that i find very helpful: They think of of practicing moves/learning technique as the "seed" and of fighting as the "flower", i.e. it is an individual, spontaneous, not repeatable expression of the principles learned before. I am trying to not practice to do a move, i am trying to practicing to be able to express the principles of the move when the music, my follower, and the other leaders around me suggest it.

Gssh

[Zoopsia59]

I took ballet and I fully understand the concepts you are explaining. Don't think I've ever heard it described this way in a tango class, though.

I draw from a variety of things to try to explain a point. Maybe the student hasn't had ballet or skating. But theoretically, they haven't had the particular piece of AT I'm teaching either, or they wouldn't be needing me to teach it to them.

So does it matter if they aren't familiar with other forms? Not if the analogy makes something click for them. Any 2 teachers with the exact same idea and philosophy might explain things 2 different ways. One might "speak" to you while the other makes no sense, even though the teachers might not even be contradicting each other. So when I try to explain things, I just throw as many ideas out there as possible hoping that one will produce an AH-HA! moment and stick.

My partner tried to tell me something for 2 years that I didn't really comprehend until Jon Martin told me the same thing in a different way, and AH-HA!

[delamusica]

I learned that at a workshop a long time ago with one of the old milongueros: He was showing a pretty complex step, and after demonstrating it with his partner he proceeded to demonstrate it with every single follower in the room. And they were all able to follow it. That certainly kept us leaders from complaining about the followers for the rest of the workshop :).

Love it.

[Zoopsia59]

shouldn't the fundamental principles of lead and follow be the same, even if the styles and steps are different? I mean, shouldn't a person be able to learn a foundation where they can take that to various tango communities and dance with others?

Well, yes and no... certainly the most BASIC foundation of following is the same for any and all dances. Be in control of your body, be aware of your axis, maintain your balance unless you are supposed to be off balance, be responsive without anticipating, maintain the correct posture for that dance style, Strike a balance between being too heavy and having no resistance at all, etc, etc...

The problem is that these things are all CONCEPTS not specific instructions. If I told beginners who were struggling: "Stay in control of your body! Maintain your axis.", they'd cry in frustration saying "HOW??? HOW do I DO that??" and possibly even "What the &#*$ do you MEAN by that???".

So its helpful in trying to explain the concepts initially to use specific examples. And as soon as you do that, you're into specific dances or styles.

Consider that you get a few short moments to figure out what kind of dancer an unknown leader is before you're off and running. I was told 2 years ago that I was an excellent follower by a respected teacher, but I still at that time wouldn't have followed the move you were talking about (and I still might miss it, because my natural tendency would be to hold my leg in arabesque as I'm going around) I just had no concept of the neotango and nuevo styling and in fact I'm only getting used to it now. There aren't many leaders here who are good at it. (I can think of one, actually)

And in fact, its possible that another leader doing that same move would WANT you to hold the arabesque!

Its hard to guess and given how easy it is to whack someone with a loose open free leg, its safer to collect or at least keep it somewhat contained if you are at a milonga and not doing a demo, especially if the majority of the crowd is NOT a neotango or nuevo crowd, and especially if the leader isn't someone whose patterns you know.

You might miss some of the fancy stuff that way, but personally, I think its better to miss a couple of fancy tricks because you aren't as nuevo as the leader wants, than it is to have trouble following basic movement because you never learned the traditional priciples of being ready for the next thing through collecting and keeping things contained and controlled. Once you know a leader or you're better at switching styles from tanda to tanda, you can play more.

It just takes time. Really, one year is not a long time in Tango. (I think I hit a wall about the one year mark also and almost throw in the towel. I'm so glad I didn't!)

[Zoopsia59]

no 2 persons walk the same, hence no 2 persons move the same, hence no 2 persons dance the same. Cecilia Gonzalez said in a w/s once, "Do not try to do what I do. Take what I teach you, and do what you do."
.

Boy aint that the truth! I was trying to work with someone last night on a certain thing and we realized that the main reason she was having trouble achieving the position I was trying to get her to was that she is slightly bowlegged, while I am knock-knee'd. There was NO WAY she could do it just as I did it. It had to be adapted for the shape of her legs around the knee in relation to her foot.

[dchester]

Yes, there is a right/wrong way to do some things, btu we must know that no 2 persons walk the same, hence no 2 persons move the same, hence no 2 persons dance the same. Cecilia Gonzalez said in a w/s once, "Do not try to do what I do. Take what I teach you, and do what you do." This is one of the best things I've seen posted in a while.

:applause:

The only thing I can add, is know who you are (then relax and have some fun).

[bastet]

Well, yes and no... certainly the most BASIC foundation of following is the same for any and all dances. Be in control of your body, be aware of your axis, maintain your balance unless you are supposed to be off balance, be responsive without anticipating, maintain the correct posture for that dance style, Strike a balance between being too heavy and having no resistance at all, etc, etc...

The problem is that these things are all CONCEPTS not specific instructions. If I told beginners who were struggling: "Stay in control of your body! Maintain your axis.", they'd cry in frustration saying "HOW??? HOW do I DO that??" and possibly even "What the &#*$ do you MEAN by that???".

So its helpful in trying to explain the concepts initially to use specific examples. And as soon as you do that, you're into specific dances or styles.

Consider that you get a few short moments to figure out what kind of dancer an unknown leader is before you're off and running. I was told 2 years ago that I was an excellent follower by a respected teacher, but I still at that time wouldn't have followed the move you were talking about (and I still might miss it, because my natural tendency would be to hold my leg in arabesque as I'm going around) I just had no concept of the neotango and nuevo styling and in fact I'm only getting used to it now. There aren't many leaders here who are good at it. (I can think of one, actually)

And in fact, its possible that another leader doing that same move would WANT you to hold the arabesque!

Its hard to guess and given how easy it is to whack someone with a loose open free leg, its safer to collect or at least keep it somewhat contained if you are at a milonga and not doing a demo, especially if the majority of the crowd is NOT a neotango or nuevo crowd, and especially if the leader isn't someone whose patterns you know.

You might miss some of the fancy stuff that way, but personally, I think its better to miss a couple of fancy tricks because you aren't as nuevo as the leader wants, than it is to have trouble following basic movement because you never learned the traditional priciples of being ready for the next thing through collecting and keeping things contained and controlled. Once you know a leader or you're better at switching styles from tanda to tanda, you can play more.

It just takes time. Really, one year is not a long time in Tango. (I think I hit a wall about the one year mark also and almost throw in the towel. I'm so glad I didn't!)

Exactly so.

One thing I firmly believe in is getting at least a good exposure to the different styles. They do have some different techniques, and as you say...if you're not being led by a Nuevo leader...delayed foot collection could end up pretty bad.

I'm certainly no expert on Nuevo, but the way I understood that delayed collect concept was thinking of the collect not as the end of the step, like you would in a traditional Salon fashion, but as the start of the next step. That was at least how I had things explained to me.

One thing that I think helps by learning to understand the different styles is that when you get in to an embrace with a leader (or are watching them on the floor) you tend to be able to feel what style they are dancing and so you can accomodate andmaybe adjust some of the techniques, posture and so forth you might be using accordingly. I don't think you can do that without having at least had the differences and different techniques explained to you by someone.

[bastet]

I learned that at a workshop a long time ago with one of the old milongueros: He was showing a pretty complex step, and after demonstrating it with his partner he proceeded to demonstrate it with every single follower in the room. And they were all able to follow it. That certainly kept us leaders from complaining about the followers for the rest of the workshop :).

Gssh


One danger in this is example might be that to use it as a measure of the follows skill isn't quite right, I don't think. A really good leader can make adjustments to things a follow is doing wrong. So, rather than use the Tete example (I'm pretty sure that's who did that) as an example of how the leaders were doing things wrong and not the follows, I'd use it as an example of how a really good lead can make adjustments and still get something to work, even if the follow isn't doing things quite right.

Same thing with really experienced follows. They usually have a fairly wide range of what they can assimilate as a lead and so tend to be able to make "lemonade out of lemons" as it were.

But you put two less experienced people together with a new idea and you generally get a mess, as they are both making mistakes that neither one knows how to accomodate (in a social dance) or correct (in a class setting).

[newbie]

We're all dying to know who this was... if you don't think its appropriate to say on the board, can you email?

I still fail to see where is the problem with naming the name. If this teacher is bad I'd rather knowing it. Is the ego of a (bad, it seems) teacher worth more than the time and money of tens of pupils?

[Terpsichorean Clod]

We try to avoid publicly posting identifying information in these cases, especially when the teacher is not around to defend him/herself. Thanks for your understanding. :)

[Steve Pastor]

"So, rather than use the Tete example (I'm pretty sure that's who did that) as an example of how the leaders were doing things wrong and not the follows, I'd use it as an example of how a really good lead can make adjustments and still get something to work, even if the follow isn't doing things quite right."

I didn't want to rain on the parade, but now...

It always seems to me that the teacher, or the Alpha dancer, is never wrong. At least in the "eyes" of the less experienced people dancing with them.
"So and so kept leading X, and I kept getting it wrong." Um, maybe So and so was having a bad day, or just happened to be off that day.
Surely, everyone in the room knows what's coming and what's expected of them when the Master leads everyone.
Both partners share in making the dance work.

Really nice detailed information on technique, Zoops.
IMO we learn the detail and the technique to enable ourselves to be free when we dance.

"its possible that another leader doing that same move would WANT you to hold the arabesque!"
This part, I always minimize when I dance. If it can't be lead, and the only reason it's going to happen is because you know it's supposed to happen... We are again talking secret handshake.
I guess this is one of the reasons some of us end up dancing simply. It is in that simplicity that we find the most common ground.

[Zoopsia59]

We try to avoid publicly posting identifying information in these cases, especially when the teacher is not around to defend him/herself. Thanks for your understanding. :)

Actually, I think this is a borderline situation since the OP did not criticise the teacher at all. She posted that a teacher taught a certain thing that she didn't understand and could anyone clarify...

I think it actually could be helpful to name the teacher in a situation like this because then someone else who is familiar with that teacher might know what the move was and what the poster might have been missing in the process of learning it.

To be honest, the fact that she emailed me the name helped me respond by realizing that the move in question came from a certain style that I know that teacher employs.

It certainly isn't an attack on the teacher for people to say "that makes no sense to me" or "that contradicts what I've been taught". In fact, it might give one an opportunity to DEFEND the teacher.

I had a student tell me that she was taught something by another local teacher that I thought was so wrong as to be daft. But when she told me who, I knew that she must have misunderstood the teacher because there was NO WAY he would have told her to do that. I realized what he probably said and what he meant by it vs how she interpreted the words. If she hadn't told me who it was, I might have just said "Well, then he has no business teaching because he doesn't know what he's talking about"

Besides, we all have opinions of the teachers out there. Its one thing to criticize, and another to simply say "I didn't understand" or "I didn't like the workshop". I think Tete' is a genius, and I have, and love, the videos, but I didn't get anything out of a workshop I took with him. Others might have liked it though, so does that matter?

[bastet]

I didn't want to rain on the parade, but now...

yeah- I kind of got that going there...:rolleyes:


I guess this is one of the reasons some of us end up dancing simply. It is in that simplicity that we find the most common ground.


This is pretty much where I have been going as well.

[Gssh]

I'm certainly no expert on Nuevo, but the way I understood that delayed collect concept was thinking of the collect not as the end of the step, like you would in a traditional Salon fashion, but as the start of the next step. That was at least how I had things explained to me.

From my experiences with nuevo i would think this to be exactly the same as in salon - i don't see a delayed collect, but instead a collect that is not a result of the follower putting her foot into the "correct" collected position, but instead the loose leg just hangs there, and falls into place. In salon this principle is used for all ganchos, enganches, boleos, and to some extent in ochos an in walking - these are all moves where the free foot passess throught the collected point at a pace set by how the center moves. I think in salon terms the move we are talking about would be considered a front boleo powered by the leader stepping around the follower.

Again, i think the difference is more in teaching methodology and language than in the actual mechanice - nuevo dancers emphasize the looseness of the hanging leg, while salon dancers emphasize that the follower should collect - and i think that the core problem they both try to address is that the follower needs to maintian her axis through the fixed leg through the whole range of the step, so she never "falls" onto a weighted loose leg. Both approaches can lead to problems - it is sometimes hard to get a nuevo follower to shift weight onto her loose leg, and it is sometimes hard to get a salon follower to not shift weight - but when dancing with good followers there doesn't seem to be a big difference in what they are doing.

Gssh

Gssh

[Gssh]

One danger in this is example might be that to use it as a measure of the follows skill isn't quite right, I don't think. A really good leader can make adjustments to things a follow is doing wrong. So, rather than use the Tete example (I'm pretty sure that's who did that) as an example of how the leaders were doing things wrong and not the follows, I'd use it as an example of how a really good lead can make adjustments and still get something to work, even if the follow isn't doing things quite right.

Same thing with really experienced follows. They usually have a fairly wide range of what they can assimilate as a lead and so tend to be able to make "lemonade out of lemons" as it were.

But you put two less experienced people together with a new idea and you generally get a mess, as they are both making mistakes that neither one knows how to accomodate (in a social dance) or correct (in a class setting).

Nah it was not tete, i think it was nito (but am really not sure - it was a long time ago). I agree that this is nto really a measure of how skilled a follower should be - it is a measure of how skilled a leader should be. I just have a strong reaction when i hear followers talk about their inability to follow "subtle leads" because in my experience what makes a follower a good follower is good balance, lack of apprehension patience, and fearlessness. And i experience it way too often that beginner followers are actually getting worse as followers when becoming intermediate followers because they forget how to follow and instead tune in to their favourite leads ideosyncrasies. And i see leaders teaching them these "subtle leads" instead of making damn sure that they understand the move enough to teach it without the follower having to learn by heart where she is supposed to step. Of course then advanced followers have all the above, plus technique, balance, and a strong enough understanding of the dance that they don't just follow but we get to communicate during the dance how we see the music, and the dance, and everything.

I know it is not applicable to the OP - i am not really talking about that being collected is not "holding the feet together" but "having the weight completely on one foot, and becasue the other foot just hangs from the center, and that center is over the weighted food, so the hanging foot ends up restign right next to the weighted foot". I am commenting on the idea that there are subtle signals that a follower needs to know to understand what she is supposed to do. Anything that is not a mechanical neccessity is the followers style. If i can not lead a move the question is not if there is a signal she missed, but what i did not do to make the move a neccessary reaction to my lead. And yes, my lead has to be different dependent on our height difference, and how she moves, and how much energy she puts in - that is part of understanding a lead - if i can't make a move happening naturally with like 80% of the followers i dance with i don't understand it enough.

Gssh

[UnfamiliarSameness]

You might miss some of the fancy stuff that way, but personally, I think its better to miss a couple of fancy tricks because you aren't as nuevo as the leader wants, than it is to have trouble following basic movement because you never learned the traditional priciples of being ready for the next thing through collecting and keeping things contained and controlled. Once you know a leader or you're better at switching styles from tanda to tanda, you can play more.

This thread has been absolutely fantastic thanks Jenny for getting it started...

Thanks Zoopsia brillaint advice and info - has totally clarified a few problems I've been having which I guessed where to do with neuvo versus salon "styling" if that's the right word....I always tend to keep things small and compact with the free leg and I can tell with a few leads their kinda disappointed LOL ...maybe that's not the right word exactly but it's almost like there's points where I've missed a trick or something.


Originally Posted by Steve Pastor http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=606166#post606166)
I guess this is one of the reasons some of us end up dancing simply. It is in that simplicity that we find the most common ground.



Love that!

[UnfamiliarSameness]

After more than a year struggling with tango, I am still feeling frustrated and I'm still not enjoying it most of the time. When I'm dancing, I sometimes feel like I'm taking a test, and I wonder what percentage of the questions I will get right. :(
I know that I have improved quite a bit - but obviously there is still something I'm not understanding. Any suggestions?

I can so relate to this. When I first went out dancing it was to a local practica....which I thought would ease me in gently...you know everyone's there to practice dancing right ? Mistakes will be forgiven..we'll be working things out together....WRONG. I was in fact "tested" out by quite a few guys....I could feel the invisible check list - "can she do this" "is she up to doing that" - this was generally followed by a helpful oneway feedback session, which I now realise was more about them letting me know how they prefered a woman to dance than anything really technically useful .... My first proper milonga was a total dream in comparison....(I suddenly felt like Corina de la Rosa hahahah)

Anyways my personal traumas aside :-) the one thing that I found truly helpful was removing the word "sorry" from my volcabulary...very difficult at first...so I replaced it initially with a quick smile LOL.. ..but since then the impulse to judge myself, worry, anticipate, "do something" has slowly evaporated.

p.s This is a great thread thanks Jenny for starting it up and Zoopsia59 for the advice and info.



Originally Posted by Steve Pastor http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=606166#post606166)
I guess this is one of the reasons some of us end up dancing simply. It is in that simplicity that we find the most common ground.


Oooo love this!!

[Angel HI]

Actually, I think this is a borderline situation since the OP did not criticise the teacher at all. She posted that a teacher taught a certain thing that she didn't understand and could anyone clarify...

It certainly isn't an attack on the teacher for people to say "that makes no sense to me" or "that contradicts what I've been taught". In fact, it might give one an opportunity to DEFEND the teacher.

You know, Zoops, I have to agree w/ this. These points, and the rest of your post is well grounded. Though, most mean well, sometimes posts are misconstrued via the www, and as a mod, it is easier, and safer, to err on the side of caution.

[Angel HI]

A quick Hi to Unfamilar,

Welcome to the DF. As you have noticed, you'll get some great advice on AT here. See you on the boards.

[jennyisdancing]

I can so relate to this. When I first went out dancing it was to a local practica....which I thought would ease me in gently...you know everyone's there to practice dancing right ? Mistakes will be forgiven..we'll be working things out together....WRONG. I was in fact "tested" out by quite a few guys....I could feel the invisible check list - "can she do this" "is she up to doing that" - this was generally followed by a helpful oneway feedback session, which I now realise was more about them letting me know how they prefered a woman to dance than anything really technically useful .... My first proper milonga was a total dream in comparison....(I suddenly felt like Corina de la Rosa hahahah)

Anyways my personal traumas aside :-) the one thing that I found truly helpful was removing the word "sorry" from my volcabulary...very difficult at first...so I replaced it initially with a quick smile LOL.. ..but since then the impulse to judge myself, worry, anticipate, "do something" has slowly evaporated.

p.s This is a great thread thanks Jenny for starting it up and Zoopsia59 for the advice and info.


Welcome to DF!

You know, my last couple of milongas and practicas were for the most part, pretty pleasant. Some of the leaders were actually complimentary to me. One of the better ones didn't dance with me till the end of one evening. He told me that he wished he had danced with me earlier in the evening. That was very sweet to say. :)

Still, most times, there is always a leader or two who is, as you say, running through the mental checklist as they grade me. This is still happening after a year. I encountered one of these types at the workshops yesterday. We were just making chitchat afterward and then he started complaining about the followers' inadequacies. I left after that, so he could not ask me to dance, thank goodness.

Guys, I fully realize that the leader's job is difficult and I am very understanding about that. But it is not right to make the follower feel like she has crushed your manhood because she did not correctly follow one of your moves. You don't have to be really good. If you're kind and friendly, pay attention to the music, and you don't fall on me, I'll be happy. Okay, end of rant.

Getting back to the original topic, I think Zoopsia is correct that this teacher had a different style which required techniques that most of the students, including me, were unfamiliar with.

I don't plan on posting his name because I don't want this to be about bashing this particular person. I chose to take his workshops because I had seen videos of dancing and admired it. I was hoping he would offer insight into his creative, unique style and approach. I think I just may pass on future tango workshops with anybody for a while, no matter how good their reputation is. They just don't seem to be helping me. I'm a bit surprised by that. I have found workshops to be very enjoyable, helpful and effective in other forms of dance.

[Angel HI]

I chose to take his workshops because I had seen videos of dancing and admired it. I was hoping he would offer insight into his creative, unique style and approach.

Did you not get this? I am sure that you learned something other than the weird lead lift your leg thingy.

I think I just may pass on future tango workshops with anybody for a while, no matter how good their reputation is. They just don't seem to be helping me.

This is unfortunate. W/s are great ops. I'm not suggesting that this is you, but I have found that most persons don't know how to have a w/s. This is to say that most treat w/s as just a big class on an otherwise not scheduled day. One must know how to learn differently when having a w/s in order to get the most out of them. In your defense, I do know that many teachers do not know how to teach w/s either. Perhaps, this was the case.

[jennyisdancing]

Did you not get this? I am sure that you learned something other than the weird lead lift your leg thingy.



This is unfortunate. W/s are great ops. I'm not suggesting that this is you, but I have found that most persons don't know how to have a w/s. This is to say that most treat w/s as just a big class on an otherwise not scheduled day. One must know how to learn differently when having a w/s in order to get the most out of them. In your defense, I do know that many teachers do not know how to teach w/s either. Perhaps, this was the case.

Well, as I said, I am very familiar with taking workshops for other kinds of dances. WCS is a very good example. I have taken workshops with just about every one of the top WCS pros, and have learned useful things from all of them - things that I actually can remember and use in my dancing.

As far as this latest tango event was concerned, well, the two separate workshop topics were ganchos and musicality. Ganchos, yes, the basic concept was in there somewhere, but was taught only after much time was spent on a step sequence leading up to it.

Musicality was playing songs where we learned to stop during the breaks, and dance more 'up' and lyrically to flowing parts of the song, and more 'down' into the floor for the stronger parts. That stuff was already obvious to me, although I could see that it helped some people to learn it.

At the end, the couple gave a demonstration to show how creatively they could dance while only stepping simply side to side. It was a fantastic, fun demo to watch. I noticed they did numerous types of footwork, embellishments, body movements, little hops, lunges, etc. etc. etc., demonstrating great musicality, humor, and personality. Now THAT would have made for some great workshop material.

[Angel HI]

Ganchos, .... was taught only after much time was spent on a step sequence leading up to it.

Musicality was ...where we learned to stop during the breaks, and dance more 'up' and lyrically to flowing parts of the song, and more 'down' into the floor for the stronger parts.

This is what I meant by not knowing how to teach a w/s. Esp., re the musicality part, these things are such a minute and secondary part of musicality...the least important. I don't mean to bash the teacher; that is not the point. Moreso, I am supporting that it was not all you, so don't give up.

At the end, the couple gave a demonstration to show how creatively they could dance ..... Now THAT would have made for some great workshop material.

Yeah.

[BlueSkies]

What a great thread, thanks Jenny!


After more than a year struggling with tango, I am still feeling frustrated and I'm still not enjoying it most of the time. When I'm dancing, I sometimes feel like I'm taking a test, and I wonder what percentage of the questions I will get right. :sad:

I totally feel for you here, Jenny, I find myself feeling similar from the leader's side at times. We work so hard to learn this new skill, but that translates into tension which gets in the way and ends up in a lack of enjoyment. Particularly when dancing with someone more experienced or highly skilled - I put extra pressure on myself, assigning "mistakes" to my lack of skill, rather than accepting that connection takes time to build and that great dancing takes relaxation not tension.

The more things I try to work on consciously, the "worse" my dancing feels - this is a natural part of learning and improving, you break things then build them up stronger. It reminds me of learning archery... to improve you had to exercise conscious control over what you were doing, but to shoot well you had to switch all of that off and let the subconscious do its work. I dance my best and enjoy myself most when I just switch off the learning bit for a while and concentrate on the music.

In order to avoid beating myself up regularly, I have a little rule that you might find helps you. Although I love to dance with anyone, and try to learn from every dance and mistake, I try not to "score" myself on the standard of my dancing unless I'm dancing with
a) Someone I know is very skilled, and
b) Someone I'm comfortable with and have danced with many times, and
c) To a piece of music I know reasonably well and like.

Some might see this "grading peak performance" as a trick or cheat but for me it has a positive motivating effect, and allows me to learn from all dances without feeling my standard dropped just because I had a few dances where the connection was still developing, or I was concentrating on changing something.

I could feel the invisible check list - "can she do this" "is she up to doing that" - this was generally followed by a helpful oneway feedback session, which I now realise was more about them letting me know how they prefered a woman to dance than anything really technically useful ....

Welcome UnfamiliarSameness :D

I see these oneway feedback sessions going on all the time, somehow there are a bunch of leaders out there who think they have the right to do this, whereas if a follower gave them "feedback" like this they would want to crawl into a hole. They may think they're coaching but the reality is they usually haven't a clue how to coach or motivate and chances are they haven't the faintest idea of what the follower skills are. Let the teachers teach I say, I'll only give feedback (other than praise) if a lady asks me specifically, or I'm officially assisting in an absolute beginner class.

That said, the "invisible check list" I kind of understand... when you dance with someone new there is an extent to which as a leader you are testing ... but you're testing out what can be achieved by both of you, with the connection you have and testing the volume of your lead and perhaps how to adapt to the embrace or the follower's style. So bear in mind the leader is not necessarily testing you, but he does have a responsibility to test out the connection and get to know the partnership so that he can lead a dance that you will both enjoy.

Blue

[UnfamiliarSameness]

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome!!

So bear in mind the leader is not necessarily testing you, but he does have a responsibility to test out the connection and get to know the partnership so that he can lead a dance that you will both enjoy.

Hey Blue, Thanks and I completedly agree with you but believe me it's very easy to feel when a leader is either "testing out the connection" or putting you through his own personal grading system.....and the more I've been dancing the easier it's gotten to recognise the difference....one feels like being cared for, the other feels like being put through an unexpected maths quiz. :-)

(And you're spot on about relaxation....some of the best dances I have are with a really lovely guy who immediately puts everyone at ease...he brings that "I want to dance with you & so lets just enjoy it whatever happens" energy... immediately I dance so much better and any blips fall away...My aim is to try to bring that level of soft but focussed energy to all my dances...)

[Zoopsia59]

the "invisible check list" I kind of understand... when you dance with someone new there is an extent to which as a leader you are testing ... but you're testing out what can be achieved by both of you, with the connection you have and testing the volume of your lead and perhaps how to adapt to the embrace or the follower's style. So bear in mind the leader is not necessarily testing you, but he does have a responsibility to test out the connection and get to know the partnership so that he can lead a dance that you will both enjoy.

Blue

Good point... sometimes the "test" isn't so much

"Will I bother to dance with her again if she can't do x ?" but
"What should I lead instead if we can't do x ?"

[Zoopsia59]

I see these oneway feedback sessions going on all the time, somehow there are a bunch of leaders out there who think they have the right to do this, whereas if a follower gave them "feedback" like this they would want to crawl into a hole. They may think they're coaching but the reality is they usually haven't a clue how to coach or motivate and chances are they haven't the faintest idea of what the follower skills are. Blue

And the really sad part is that when someone does this, it creates tension in their partner (either through worry or anger) that negatively affects the partner's dancing which makes things WORSE!

[dchester]

Getting back to the original topic, I think Zoopsia is correct that this teacher had a different style which required techniques that most of the students, including me, were unfamiliar with.

I don't plan on posting his name because I don't want this to be about bashing this particular person. I chose to take his workshops because I had seen videos of dancing and admired it. I was hoping he would offer insight into his creative, unique style and approach. I think I just may pass on future tango workshops with anybody for a while, no matter how good their reputation is. They just don't seem to be helping me. I'm a bit surprised by that. I have found workshops to be very enjoyable, helpful and effective in other forms of dance.
As far as I'm concerned, if the class had some prerequisites (like knowledge of some special techniques) and this wasn't documented, then this is 100% the teacher's fault in my opinion. It's a shame that others are going to waste their time and money taking classes from teachers like this, who aren't knowledgeable enough to know how to run a proper class.

No matter how well a person can dance, If they are going to teach, they need to take some time to think about what they are going to teach, how they are going to teach it, as well as whether the subject material matches the skillset of the students. If he's not going to document prerequisites, then the material had better not require any special skills.

As far as this latest tango event was concerned, well, the two separate workshop topics were ganchos and musicality. Ganchos, yes, the basic concept was in there somewhere, but was taught only after much time was spent on a step sequence leading up to it. This is another one of my pet peaves with some teachers. Teach the step, not some goofy pattern you just made up that we'll likely never use.

I was a workshop last weekend where the topic was on the pasada (step over). The teachers cooked up some ridiculous looking set of steps to get to the position they wanted us in. It looked mediocre (at best) when the instructers did it, so you can imagine how bad it looked when the students were trying it. So of course, 15 minutes were wasted on trying to get people to get this pattern to not look like dog doo, before proceeding to the pasada.

The thing that was absolutely ridiculous was that I could get to the position they wanted us in (to then do the pasada) in a couple easy steps (rather than using their pattern). When I showed this to my follower, she said, let's just go with your pattern so we can actually do some pasadas.

[dchester]

Anyways my personal traumas aside :-) the one thing that I found truly helpful was removing the word "sorry" from my volcabulary...very difficult at first...so I replaced it initially with a quick smile LOL.. ..but since then the impulse to judge myself, worry, anticipate, "do something" has slowly evaporated. I think this is great advice. As a leader, I honestly have no desire to hear the follower say sorry during a dance. Hearing it (at least for me) is more annoying than any minor mis-step she may have made (and at least half the time, I'm thinking my lead could have been better).

If I hear a follower say sorry more than once, I'll usually try to make a joke and say something like, "Tango means never having to say you're sorry", or "Don't you know, you're supposed to blame the leader when anything goes wrong". Often that gets the follower to relax, and we usually end up having a nice dance.

BTW, welcome to the forum, UnfamiliarSameness.

:)

[Zoopsia59]

I think this is great advice. As a leader, I honestly have no desire to hear the follower say sorry during a dance. Hearing it (at least for me) is more annoying than any minor mis-step she may have made (and at least half the time, I'm thinking my lead could have been better).

If I hear a follower say sorry more than once, I'll usually try to make a joke and say something like, "Tango means never having to say you're sorry", or "Don't you know, you're supposed to blame the leader when anything goes wrong". Often that gets the follower to relax, and we usually end up having a nice dance.

BTW, welcome to the forum, UnfamiliarSameness.

:)

I usually don't say "sorry" or apologize, but at a Practica (not a social dance) I will immediately say "My bad..." or "Oh that was me. I let my back go" (or whatever) when a move doesn't work and I know it was me. I've found that doing this with a leader who is less skilled than I helps him because he would have been likely to assume it was him.

I've had more than one beginner leader express to me that they like dancing with me because not only am I more forgiving than some of the other follows at my level, but that I am more "humble" and willing to admit that some mistakes are mine. Apparently they find this quite *******ing and unusual, as well as comforting to know that even people they think of as "advanced" make stupid mistakes. (My favorite is to admit to a beginner leader when I just stepped on or tripped over my own foot... that seems to really diffuse his tension!)

And with leaders at my level, it cuts the tendency to be blaming right off if I acknowledge my own mistakes right up front. In fact, even this one leader who used to have a very bad and annoying habit of correcting and blaming his follower now never does so with me and has started doing exactly what I am doing when he practices with me... he admits his own mistake right away. In fact, he not only never corrects or blames me anymore, he actually often contradicts me when I try to take responsibility and says "No, you were good... I did x". It is a complete turnaround from his prior behavior and it started when I began admitting responsibility right away.

Mind you I am talking specifically of practicas, not milongas. Analyzing the dance at a milonga defeats the whole point. And I don't know that this would be a good idea with someone who isn't experienced enough to recognize what is and isn't her fault. If someone is at a level where you would expect them to make lots of mistakes, it would get pretty tiresome to hear them point it out every time.

But I think you have an obligation when practicing with a less experienced dancer to be upfront about it when you mess up. Even if (or especially if) you are a teaching them in a class. I think this actually increases their respect for you and makes them more accepting of their own mistakes. People don't dance well when they are terrified of making mistakes.

[Zoopsia59]

quite *******ing and .

Apparently the word re- -fresh is not allowed. Maybe the forum doesn't want it to be interpreted as a computer command?

[dchester]

But I think you have an obligation when practicing with a less experienced dancer to be upfront about it when you mess up. Even if (or especially if) you are a teaching them in a class. I think this actually increases their respect for you and makes them more accepting of their own mistakes. People don't dance well when they are terrified of making mistakes. OK, I can see your point about how that might be helpful.

Maybe I'm unusual, but I never would criticize or try to correct or teach when dancing, unless I am asked by the follower. I remember what my beginner period was like, and I would never want to act like a few people acted towards me. I feel very fortunate that the overwhelming majority of people were encouraging and positive to me, and that's the way I want to be towards others.

The one thing I'll occasionally say to a new follower before the start of a tanda, is that it's my job to make the leads clear, so if you can't tell what to do, then it's my fault. Also, I may say that basically, the various moves are just combinations of steps and pivots, so you really don't have to know much about all the combinations as long as you can follow a step and a pivot.

IMO, people are going to make mistakes (especially when starting out). They don't need to feel embarrassed or apologetic about it. This is supposed to be fun, after all.

[jennyisdancing]

I usually don't say "sorry" or apologize, but at a Practica (not a social dance) I will immediately say "My bad..." or "Oh that was me. I let my back go" (or whatever) when a move doesn't work and I know it was me. I've found that doing this with a leader who is less skilled than I helps him because he would have been likely to assume it was him.

(My favorite is to admit to a beginner leader when I just stepped on or tripped over my own foot... that seems to really diffuse his tension!)

.... People don't dance well when they are terrified of making mistakes.

Right on.

In general, this is what I think dance partners should convey to each other, whether verbally or non-verbally:

-I like you
-I am glad to dance with you
-I am enjoying myself and I hope you are too
-If you mess up, I am not upset or offended
-I am not "grading" you, nor am I comparing you to more advanced dancers
-I will not be bored or annoyed even if you don't do any fancy moves

[mshedgehog]

p.p.s. aside from the move in question, I really do also want to know generally how I develop better ability to respond to more subtle leads. Is it just a matter of time and experience, or are there certain skills/techniques I need to learn?

I'll just pipe up on this because I was trying to do the same thing recently. After a bit of experiment, the only way I found of doing this is to dance more, socially, with people who can deliver that kind of lead - i.e. people who dance, milonguero style, a lot better than me. It's practically impossible to work on it in a class. But technically, for me it's about relaxing the upper body (long spine, boobs on the table) while keeping the arms 'alive' - plus a lot of concentration and being able to clear my mind. With that I can follow milonga traspie in a fast one, no problem, and at the end I'll feel blissful, and knackered. IF the leader can deliver it. Few can, but it's fabulous when it works.

I've also had very good results (in the improvement of my own dancing) by ignoring and instantly forgetting any 'secret signal' anyone ever mentions to me. I just smile. It's definitely worth a try.

Also, in the kind of situation you described, I've occasionally got results by asking the guy to go back a few steps and lead it again. I say something like, "I'm not getting it, I think I'm starting in the wrong place, could you go back a bit?" It can happen that *he* has started in the wrong place and is not doing what he thought he was doing. Sometimes if they do it again, they do something that makes sense. If not, then I just file it as something I'm not ready for right now, and work on something else.

[Ampster]

Hello and welcome to Dance Forums, Ms. Hedgehog.

Greetings from the "Orange shirt guy" :)

I still remember our magical tandas!

[Angel HI]

Welcome to the Forums, Hedgehog.

[mshedgehog]

Greetings from the "Orange shirt guy" :)

I still remember our magical tandas!

Oh hello! :cheers:
It's such a shame you are an eight-hour flight away. Otherwise I could have another 'Ampster dance. And I would, often.

But seriously - Ampster is an example one of those who can actually do the kind of lead it's worth making a high-resolution receiver for - someone you could practice this with.

With a lot of people it's like having a high-definition TV when nobody's broadcasting in HD. You just can't even tell. That's why it's not very efficient to try to work on this in the usual kind of classes - there isn't enough opportunity to know whether you're improving. And the sensation of someone shouting when you're listening very very carefully is not much fun, so exposing myself to it makes me go backwards unless I'm prepared.

It is not completely pointless - it certainly is possible to enhance the dance, and improve someone else's dancing, by listening in hi-res before he learns to transmit in hi-res: but I think you have to be a lot better at it than me to do that.

[Angel HI]

But seriously - Ampster is an example one of those who can actually do the kind of lead it's worth making a high-resolution receiver for - someone you could practice this with.

Hey! Kudos...Amps! Way to go. :notworth:

With a lot of people it's like having a high-definition TV when nobody's broadcasting in HD.

Love it...absolutely, love it. I spend a great deal of time in classes/workshops on lead/follow. I will steal this great analogy...and, give you credit, though.

[Zoopsia59]

I've also had very good results (in the improvement of my own dancing) by ignoring and instantly forgetting any 'secret signal' anyone ever mentions to me. I just smile. It's definitely worth a try.

I had a guy one time tell me (at a milonga, not a practica) about a move he wanted to do that couldn't be led, the follower just had to know it, and then he proceeded to show it to me.

I thought: What good is a move that can't be led when you are at a SOCIAL DANCE?

[mshedgehog]

Love it...absolutely, love it. I spend a great deal of time in classes/workshops on lead/follow. I will steal this great analogy...and, give you credit, though.

Thank you :D

[Ampster]

Originally Posted by mshedgehog http://dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=606870#post606870)
But seriously - Ampster is an example one of those who can actually do the kind of lead it's worth making a high-resolution receiver for - someone you could practice this with.


Hey! Kudos...Amps! Way to go. :notworth:

:banana:Thank you. I don't think I deserve it. But, Thank you very much, mshedgehog, Angel... I'm humbled :notworth:

[Steve Pastor]

I often wonder how much of our being able to lead and follow has to do with our common set of expectations (such as having had the same class, learning from a particular individual, etc), and how much comes from a "pure" use of techinique.
It always seems that the better/more experienced dancers can handle way more "unexpected" or unusual things than less experienced dancers. Some of that MUST come from simply having had so many things thrown at them in lessons, and on the floor.

Just watching people, and on occassion dancing with someone that looks good with someone, or someones (that a word?) else, and finding that they certainly don't seem that good with me and I have a strong opinion about why, and it has to do with technique or lack thereof... I have to conclude that lots of people get along by developing a shared vocabulary with individuals, rather than the vocabulary made possible by very basic principles such as you step under yourself to establish a new position when your center is beyond where you can maintain your current position (or something like that).

Just enough skepticism about my own beliefs to keep an open mind.

[mshedgehog]

I often wonder how much of our being able to lead and follow has to do with our common set of expectations (such as having had the same class, learning from a particular individual, etc),

Well, apparently it was roughly zero in the specific case of me and Ampster, since we have danced together only on one occasion, we had never seen each other before, and we learned our tango eight time zones apart.

We danced three tandas, tango, vals, and milonga, separated by dances with other people (none of whom I had ever met before either, though one of them danced remarkably like a man of similar physique I dance with here). My only not-good dance of the night was also not-good in a way that's completely familiar to me from back home.

But obviously where this is not the case, other possibilities are much more likely.

[Ampster]

My take on the follower being more responsive to the lead is this:

It is the Leader's responsibility to provide a CLEAR ENOUGH LEAD for the follower to follow.

Yes, she must know how to follow. But, as a leader you must give her something to follow in the first place. If your leading is not readable (muddled, fuzzy, absent, tentative), then no matter how good the follower is, she will have a hard time doing what you want to do if you can't lead it. Its a conversation. You can't give an answer to a question you can't hear.




I was at one time, one of those jerks that tried to teach on the dancefloor. I was also obsessed with steps at one time. But, I made a concious decision to understand AT's fundamental nuances. Becasue of this, I had epiphanies that happened in a around the time I wrote these posts:

Stages_of_learning_dance... (http://dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=479368&postcount=1)
Don't_impress_her_with_your_fancy_steps... (http://dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=463903&postcount=1)
I basically accepted and admitted to myself how bad I really was. I also made it my mission to be able to lead anyone at any level and make her look good. It made a difference in her following, which made a difference in the total character of each and every Tanda.

[Zoopsia59]

I have to conclude that lots of people get along by developing a shared vocabulary with individuals, rather than the vocabulary made possible by very basic principles.

I believe that you never really learn to follow until you dance with total strangers. Even when you know the basics and make an effort to practice and implement good technique, there is alwyas the danger of "recalling" rather than following when you dance with people well known to you. My following started REALLY improving (or should I say, I started to really realize what I needed to work on) when I allowed myself to dance with "out of towners" that came to milongas that I attended and got over my fear of dancing with leaders I wasn't "used to".

[Angel HI]

Good point, Zoops.

[BlueSkies]

I believe that you never really learn to follow until you dance with total strangers. Even when you know the basics and make an effort to practice and implement good technique, there is alwyas the danger of "recalling" rather than following when you dance with people well known to you. My following started REALLY improving (or should I say, I started to really realize what I needed to work on) when I allowed myself to dance with "out of towners" that came to milongas that I attended and got over my fear of dancing with leaders I wasn't "used to".

Ahh! This makes so much sense from the leader side as well. Recently I've started dancing with quite a few new people, and experienced a bit of a "low" in my dancing. I was feeling that my lead was clear only to people that I danced with often. I'd be metaphorically banging my head against the wall particularly after dancing with followers who were clearly very skilled but struggled to follow me. One lady saved me from my motivation troubles though, we just clicked (in the dance connection sense), and had some great dances right off the bat. So I was in this "I can't dance!", "I can dance!" mood swing.

Now I'll take on board these wise words from Zoopsia and flip the whole experience into something I can genuinely feel I'm learning from - that will make me a much happier (blue) bunny!

Thanks!! :cool:

Blue

[bafonso]

I believe that you never really learn to follow until you dance with total strangers. Even when you know the basics and make an effort to practice and implement good technique, there is alwyas the danger of "recalling" rather than following when you dance with people well known to you. My following started REALLY improving (or should I say, I started to really realize what I needed to work on) when I allowed myself to dance with "out of towners" that came to milongas that I attended and got over my fear of dancing with leaders I wasn't "used to".

Good advice, the same goes for leaders. Besides, AT is a social dance, so always good to meet new people :-) Just watch out for dancers that may hurt you...

I feel it's always very important and humbling to get out of our comfort zone to learn from it.