Ballroom Dance Finally in the Olympics....Kind of

[Angel HI]

Indiana Jay shared this link w/ us on another thread re BR in an Olympic event. http://www.fwdancesport.org/content/view/163/1/ Realizing that it is not technically the same thing, I began reflecting back to some of the meetings w/ councils, and interviews w/ presidents, etc regarding getting BR into the [international] Olympics. Of course, we are all abreast of the questions; pros/cons, and history about it.

What are some current thoughts? If this can be done on a state level w/ a national org., what's the difference? Do you feel that there is some way that this move in Fort Wayne could help/hinder the ongoing quest to get BR to be an official Olympic sport?

[reb]

Thanks for drawing attention to this. Source material from the website:

Special Olympics Indiana announced today that it has added ballroom dancing to its roster of Olympic-type sports. The decision came in part as a result of the work of Fort Wayne Dancesport, which collaborated with Special Olympics Indiana and Easter Seals Arc of Northeast Indiana to host the nation's first Special Olympics ballroom dance competition last July. Fort Wayne Dancesport has scheduled a second Special Olympics ballroom dance competition for July 5, 2009, in conjunction with the second USA Dance Fort Wayne Dancesport Championships amateur ballroom dance competition.

With today's announcement, ballroom dancing becomes the 22nd Special Olympics sport available for adults and children with intellectual disabilities in Indiana. Ballroom dancing is part of the Special Olympics Unified Sports® program, in which Special Olympics athletes are paired with individuals without intellectual disabilities.

[hustleNflow]

Honestly, I don't think I'm educated enough on the topic to really form strong opinions on it. The general consensus I seemed to get from those who do have strong opinions about it is that yes, it would be cool to have ballroom in the Olympics, but it's not likely to happen anytime soon. So I guess I just didn't bother really thinking about it :confused:

But I imagine the inclusion of BR in the Special Olympics could only have a positive effect on the possibility of inclusion in the actual Olympics...I guess anything that brings BR into the mainstream is a good thing.

The only beef I have with all of it is that all of the really good eastern European pros we have stateside might decide to dance for their home country rather than the US (a la Yao Ming in this year's Olympics), leaving the US with seemingly little to no strong representation...even though we all know they are living and dancing here and not there :tongue: Silly nitpicky thing, yes, but that's the only thing that came to mind :lol:

[Laura]

Under Olympic rules you can only compete for the country that you have citizenship in. So, all the Eastern European pros who are here on work visas but who are not naturalized US Citizens would be required to compete for their previous "home" countries.

Ditto for Yao Ming -- until and unless he became a US Citizen, he couldn't compete on the US basketball team at the Olympics even if he wanted to.

[hustleNflow]

Under Olympic rules you can only compete for the country that you have citizenship in. So, all the Eastern European pros who are here on work visas but who are not naturalized US Citizens would be required to compete for their previous "home" countries.

Ditto for Yao Ming -- until and unless he became a US Citizen, he couldn't compete on the US basketball team at the Olympics even if he wanted to.

Yah, knowing that now, the US would likely not fare well in BR in the Olympics :rolleyes: What about couples where the man and woman are from different countries altogether? I was trying to find a similar example in other Olympic events (i.e. pairs skating, diving, and volleyball), but they all seem to be from the same country. Do you know, Laura? :confused:

[Laura]

It's not allowed for there to be mixed-country teams, be they teams of two or whatever, in the Olympics. Everyone competing for a country has to be a citizen of that country.

That, for instance, is why the #1 ice dance team in the US missed a couple of Olympics -- she was a Canadian citizen trying to get US citizenship, which took pretty much forever. She was allowed to skate at the World Championships, though, because figure skating rules are like dancesport rules in that you just have to have a certain kind of residency status (for instance, Tanith Belbin had a US green card so she could live/work in the US, so she was allowed to skate at Worlds with Benjamin Augusto for the US).

[Kassia]

Yah, knowing that now, the US would likely not fare well in BR in the Olympics :rolleyes: What about couples where the man and woman are from different countries altogether? I was trying to find a similar example in other Olympic events (i.e. pairs skating, diving, and volleyball), but they all seem to be from the same country. Do you know, Laura? :confused:

Pairs skaters and ice dancers are not always from the same country...
And the Olypmics should remain a showcase of AMATURE talented so that pro ballroom dancers would not be allowed to compete..

[Kassia]

It's not allowed for there to be mixed-country teams, be they teams of two or whatever, in the Olympics. Everyone competing for a country has to be a citizen of that country.

That, for instance, is why the #1 ice dance team in the US missed a couple of Olympics -- she was a Canadian citizen trying to get US citizenship, which took pretty much forever. She was allowed to skate at the World Championships, though, because figure skating rules are like dancesport rules in that you just have to have a certain kind of residency status (for instance, Tanith Belbin had a US green card so she could live/work in the US, so she was allowed to skate at Worlds with Benjamin Augusto for the US).

Hmmm i never heard that story before but why didn't he try to get Canadian citizenship. You can have dual you know?

[Laura]

The Olympics has not been a showcase of AMATEUR anything for a good 20 years now. In fact, one of the things that dancesport had to do to move along the path of getting accepted into the Olympics was to remove the terms "Amateur" and "Professional" because they are not allowed to discriminate between the two when it comes to selecting couples for Olympic events.

Hmmm i never heard that story before but why didn't he try to get Canadian citizenship. You can have dual you know?
No idea -- I always wondered that too. It finally took a special bill in the US Congress to speed things up so that people in Tanith's situation (there were a number of people who were affected by various naturalization rule changes) could get their cases resolved.

[hustleNflow]

Pairs skaters and ice dancers are not always from the same country...
And the Olypmics should remain a showcase of AMATURE talented so that pro ballroom dancers would not be allowed to compete..

Most amateur restrictions have been lifted as of 2004, which is why the US is able to have their entire men's and women's basketball teams comprised entirely of professionals. The only sport in which pros are not allowed to compete is men's boxing. There is also an age restriction in men's soccer ("futbol") that is meant to deter a country from loading their team with pros - only 3 team members over the age of 23. There might also be a restriction on baseball, but I'm not sure.

http://www.usatoday.com/olympics/owg98/osytr01.htm



I would assume no amateur restrictions would be placed on ballroom, either.

[Laura]

here might also be a restriction on baseball, but I'm not sure.
No, what was happening with baseball is that the US Major League Baseball would not, like the National Basketball Association (NBA), release their top players to take two weeks off for the Olympics. And this has killed baseball in the Olympics -- I am pretty sure that it's off the schedule post-Beijing.

[Angel HI]

No, what was happening with baseball is that the US Major League Baseball would not, like the National Basketball Association (NBA), release their top players to take two weeks off for the Olympics. And this has killed baseball in the Olympics -- I am pretty sure that it's off the schedule post-Beijing.

And, the disgrace is that the removal, or absence, of pros would kill an Olympic event (which was always about the ams). Incidentally, this is one of my issues with BR in the O. Who gets 'political' precedence; and, why; and, why is that necessary?

[Kassia]

The Olympics has not been a showcase of AMATEUR anything for a good 20 years now. In fact, one of the things that dancesport had to do to move along the path of getting accepted into the Olympics was to remove the terms "Amateur" and "Professional" because they are not allowed to discriminate between the two when it comes to selecting couples for Olympic events.


No idea -- I always wondered that too. It finally took a special bill in the US Congress to speed things up so that people in Tanith's situation (there were a number of people who were affected by various naturalization rule changes) could get their cases resolved.

It is odd because nobody really cares where you train... Just what country you represent.. I know figure skaters live and train in other countries than where they represent... I have a feeling that its all so complex we were not ment to understand the hows and whys of it.. Perhaps, and i have thought this for many years, there is too much politics in amateur sports...
The rules are there for a reason but alot of times they just don't make sense!! I never thought it'd see freestyle skiing in the winter olympics either.. But it's there now... Altho they don't let women do ski jumping yet? Go figure... That's a huge controversy here right now on the eave of the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver/Whister, BC.

[Kassia]

No, what was happening with baseball is that the US Major League Baseball would not, like the National Basketball Association (NBA), release their top players to take two weeks off for the Olympics. And this has killed baseball in the Olympics -- I am pretty sure that it's off the schedule post-Beijing.

But taking 2 weeks off, when you get paid millions of dollars, does not change your pro or am status.. You still make a living at playing that sport.. Akkk i am not a big fan on professional sports anyway.....
But that is another topic for another thread...
I'll step off my soapbox now!!!

[Laura]

Altho they don't let women do ski jumping yet? Go figure... That's a huge controversy here right now on the eave of the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver/Whister, BC.
Oh, I'd so love to see women's ski jumping!!!!

Anyway...to start to move back toward the topic...if anyone goes to the Special Olympics in Indiana where they're going to have ballroom dancing, PLEASE report back to us on how it goes!

[delamusica]

I hope that this leads to ballroom in the para-olympics. I think it would be a great addition there. Wheelchair dancing could really use the exposure.

[Kassia]

I hope that this leads to ballroom in the para-olympics. I think it would be a great addition there. Wheelchair dancing could really use the exposure.

Yes me too... I hope that somebod posts some videos for us..

[hustleNflow]

And, the disgrace is that the removal, or absence, of pros would kill an Olympic event (which was always about the ams). Incidentally, this is one of my issues with BR in the O. Who gets 'political' precedence; and, why; and, why is that necessary?

I agree with you on that - why should pros be considered more "Olympic-worthy" than ams, and vice versa? I know a lot of ams who are technically more proficient than some pros. However, when it comes down to it, if there are no restrictions on whether an athlete is an am or not, each country is naturally going to want to load their team up with the best dancers possible - and more often than not, people equate the term "pro" with "the best", even though this is often not the case. So I worry that a lot of very good ams would get overlooked in the selection of the teams :(

[Laura]

Well, in the US at least the idea is to have a competitive event where both "pros" and "ams" can enter, and the top placing eligible (as in both partners meet the Olympic's citizenship rules) couples would get to go to the Olympics. Not every country has to select their Olympic team members the same way, but this is looking at being how it would go in the US.

[hustleNflow]

Well, in the US at least the idea is to have a competitive event where both "pros" and "ams" can enter, and the top placing eligible (as in both partners meet the Olympic's citizenship rules) couples would get to go to the Olympics. Not every country has to select their Olympic team members the same way, but this is looking at being how it would go in the US.

I worry more about other countries than the US...as we'll likely lose a lot of our top competitors to them through the citizenship rule :( I'm seriously wracking my brain to think of naturalized US citizens that dominate in Latin and Standard. Is Katusha a U.S. citizen? Yulia? Ricardo? Eugene & Maria?

[Laura]

Eugene & Maria?
Yes.

[ChaChaMama]

I worry more about other countries than the US...as we'll likely lose a lot of our top competitors to them through the citizenship rule :( I'm seriously wracking my brain to think of naturalized US citizens that dominate in Latin and Standard. Is Katusha a U.S. citizen? Yulia? Ricardo? Eugene & Maria?

If I am not mistaken, the list of sports for the 2012 Olympics has already been finalized. Ballroom is not one of them. So the earliest it could possibly be included is 2016, and I wouldn't count on that.

So I'm not sure that we need to start nosing into the citizenship of today's top pros, for three reasons: 1) they would have plenty of time to get U.S. citizenship in between now and then if they so chose, 2) several of them will probably retire from competition before ballroom makes the olympics...IF it ever does, 3) it's none of our business, even if we are curious! ;)

[dressgirl]

My understanding is that it is being considered for 2020. Not sure where I heard this, but I know it was a non-ballroom person who cited some type of Olympic notes......after the games this summer.

And, a side note Belbin and Agosto did indeed represent the US in the Winter Olympics 2 years ago. She received her citizenship a month before and within the deadline period. The was a bit of an issue as she was an "exceptional" case and bypassed thousands who had been waiting. However, she had lived and trained in the US for years and her family had moved to the US. I am pretty aware of their case as we sponsored them for their Cha Cha dress as well as exhibition dresses.

Most of our athletes in dancesport will not be actively competing by the time if ever, it gets to the Oympics and it will be the job of the youth to get the gold. I think our training programs for the young are great and most of the kids by then will be citizens, so I doubt that would be much of an issue.

[tbrennen]

...I'm seriously wracking my brain to think of naturalized US citizens that dominate in Latin and Standard. Is Katusha a U.S. citizen? Yulia? Ricardo? Eugene & Maria?

I don't know about the others but Eugene and Maria have represented the US at the World Games (they won the World Games Latin in 2005) and you must be citizens of the country you represent in order to compete at the World Games.

[Angel HI]

I agree with you on that - why should pros be considered more "Olympic-worthy" than ams, and vice versa? I know a lot of ams who are technically more proficient than some pros.

Oh right you are. Geez, did I open a can of worms when I said in a council discussion a few months ago that given a comp between most am champions today and the pros, the ams would win.

- and more often than not, people equate the term "pro" with "the best",

Unfortunate, but true.

[Angel HI]

If I am not mistaken, the list of sports for the 2012 Olympics has already been finalized. Ballroom is not one of them. So the earliest it could possibly be included is 2016, and I wouldn't count on that.

But, do you tihnk that if one could lead a massive movement for more and more SO involement, and similar orgs/activities, that this could have a positivie affect on expediting things?

[ChaChaMama]

But, do you tihnk that if one could lead a massive movement for more and more SO involement, and similar orgs/activities, that this could have a positivie affect on expediting things?

It couldn't hurt! And hey, more ballroom dancing is more ballroom dancing, which is a positive end in itself.

One big obstacle is the 28 sports, 300 events, 10,400 athletes maximum rule. That means that for every sport that is added, something has to be cut, generally speaking...and there are LOTS of sports angling for any new slots. Baseball and softball were cut for 2012 and are fighting hard to get back in. Supposedly some sports that had gotten some traction toward inclusion in the 2012 summer games were golf, rugby, squash, and karate.

I personally would be willing to cut quite a few of the current sports in order to make room for ballroom, some of which are clearly not as television-friendly as ballroom would be...but the IOC has a lot of sports courting it for inclusion. So while I would love to see ballroom in the Olympics, I also think the ballroom community has to look realistically at the politics.

[star_gazer]

I think it would make everything so complicated and bureacratic(sp?) that the dancing would become secondary. There are already more great IDSF comps available than we can take advantage of and on top of that ...Blackpool and UK Open etc. I would like to see the USA Dance competitions ramped up to the next notch and more of them. I would also like to see USA Dance hire a physician consultant to assist the competitors to understand the drug regs and what food supplements are ok and which have unallowed substances.

[wooh]

I think it would make everything so complicated and bureacratic(sp?) that the dancing would become secondary. There are already more great IDSF comps available than we can take advantage of and on top of that ...Blackpool and UK Open etc. I would like to see the USA Dance competitions ramped up to the next notch and more of them. I would also like to see USA Dance hire a physician consultant to assist the competitors to understand the drug regs and what food supplements are ok and which have unallowed substances.

Get the Olympics out of the picture, and all those drug and supplement regulations would go by the wayside, no MD necessary. (Although, if keeping them, a pharmacist would probably be a better choice than a physician. MDs generally aren't the most knowledgeable when it comes to supplements.)

[Angel HI]

...but the IOC has a lot of sports courting it for inclusion. So while I would love to see ballroom in the Olympics, I also think the ballroom community has to look realistically at the politics.

I agree, unfortunately. Just playing the advocate.

[danceronice]

Pairs skaters and ice dancers are not always from the same country...
And the Olypmics should remain a showcase of AMATURE talented so that pro ballroom dancers would not be allowed to compete..

Figure skaters aren't true amateurs and haven't been for years. US Figure Skating and the ISU no longer even use the term because they gave up on banning money-earning endeavors when they realized if they didn't, no one stayed in the sport once they became a champion. They had to go pro to earn back some of the investment. Nowdays it's possible to earn a living skating am, through endorsements, teaching, and prize money. In fact I don't think there's a single Olympic discipline that has kept to the rigid amateur standards, simply because being a top-level athlete isn't possible if you don't spend all your time on it, unless you're independently wealthy or have independently wealthy parents.

On the one hand, I'd love to see ballroom in the Olympics. On the other hand that means dealing with the IOC. The politics will be ugly.