Learning the Basics

[johnnywalker]

My wife and I enjoy both salsa and ballroom dancing. However, one thing we have come across in schools and clubs is that there are people (predominantly guys) who aren't capable of performing basic steps and leads properly before they attempt something either more complicated or flashy. My wife has complained to me about guys who either disregard her presence because they're too busy trying to emulate a more advanced dancer and therefore performing all sorts of 'stylish' moves (usually out of time) or they're breaking her arm because they don't really know how to lead properly. Although I would not consider myself to be great in either department, I'd like to think I give more thought to performing the basic stuff correctly first before trying to progress to something more complex. I don't think i'm a prefectionist but am I being fussy? Is the dance more important than the technique?

[Sagitta]

Nope. You are right on JW. A person who does the basics right on time and shows he is having fun is better then a person who is all over the place because he/she wants to do fancy moves and shows off. I too must remind myself of this all the time. :oops:

[salsachinita]

JW, I can sooooooo understand what your wife is talking about :x ! During Bacardi fever, I've endured more than a fair share of what you're describing :roll: !

Nothing beats solid basics. You can really play with the music even if you only stick to more or less basics, and less emphasis on tricks (which the music didn't call for)!

So, a relative beginner who has solid basics & 100% on beat, will look/feel like a million dollars comparing to a show-pony who knows & does 101 tricks but off beat.......

8) I know which one I'd be dancing with.......

[borikensalsero]

To me niether technique nor the application of them to create the dance are relatively important, but do agree with its use because after all, mambo is what we seek to dance, and to dance within those boundries we need technique. So in a technical sense, no the achieved dance isn't more important than the use of good technique to create that dance.

However, the issue with these dancers ins't really technique but an EGO. If these people cared that they weren't all that advance, technique wouldn't be an issue, for they would only care about the music, and their partner. However that isn't the case, these people aren't worried about the music nor your wife, all they care is about themselves. Which, welcomes you to the most hated characterstic in Mambo dancing. People letting their ego ride higher than their technique allows, hence, causing ladies like your wife not only anguish, but possible injury. Not everyone has the thinking that to achieve something we must first learn it. Some think that outcome is all that is needed to accomplish a dance.

If she can possibly be harmed during the dance, then ask her to say no thank you... Here I believe that it is best to seem like a snot than it is to be hurt.

[johnnywalker]

You're so right about the ego thing, borikensalsero. Unfortunately, these same people are often students at one of our classes. She can't always avoid dancing with them as the lesson will usually involve rotating partners. When we can get away with it we move off to one side and not swap partners for a while.
One other thing which we have come across in classes, and occassionally at clubs, are guys who don't consider the females well-being in other ways. The example which comes to mind is spins. When we are learning a step involving spins/turns i'll break occassionally to allow the girl to overcome dizziness. This is another thing my wife has mentioned some guys don't consider. Is this the case for other salseras?

[borikensalsero]

This is another thing my wife has mentioned some guys don't consider. Is this the case for other salseras?

Ahh, I feel for you JW, I feel for you and your lady. Hopefully those guys will learn to control their ego a tab better.

As far as the spins go... Indeed, some guys don't care whether the girl is dizzy or not. I actually have heard many times ladies scream for guys to stop spinning them. Last year at the NY City Salsa congress, a guy must have spun the girl as fast as he could for about 20 times, before the girl scream, STOP YOU A$$ &@%!@*... Ahhh, I felt so bad for her.

[Danish Guy]

Unfortunately, these same people are often students at one of our classes. She can't always avoid dancing with them as the lesson will usually involve rotating partners.

Then let her speak up. This is school! Tell them directly they lead to forcefully, and hurt her. If nobody dares to give them any feedback, and the teacher don't notice, how will they ever learn. :shock:

Worst case, they are "ego's", and will avoid dancing with your wife if possible. No loss. :wink:

[Danish Guy]

The example which comes to mind is spins. When we are learning a step involving spins/turns i'll break occassionally to allow the girl to overcome dizziness. This is another thing my wife has mentioned some guys don't consider. Is this the case for other salseras?

Happens all the time. :shock:

The teachers often forget to tell the guys to take it easy, training the spins. I always throw in some basics or other stuff, but have often received a total dizzy lady, when we rotate partners.

[Sagitta]

Ultimately, partner dancing is dancing with someone, not to someone, or for someone. If a person wants to dance to someone or for someone they can freestyle IMO. Take Friday night. I started out at a Brazilian event and one person whom I was dancing with said she liked it, when I was moving forward and she was moving backward. She liked that sense of movement, particularly in that direction, feeling that sense of accomplishment meant somethin. I did more of it then I normally would as a result. Later on in the night I was dancing latin with a lot of beginners. A merengue with a person who was all anxious about doing it right. I quickly told her to stop that, and just enjoy. I knew she was a beginner and that whatever she did I would be there for her. Then I started seeing a smile on her face and enjoyment in her body, in her person. Yet another person where I did a veil in salsa, and she didn't get it, but said hey do it again so I can. A third when I did it once and a little while later a second time and it was clear she was uncomfortable with it so I stopped. I did spins with another person and she just wanted to keep on going, another and she didn't even want to do two. I respected both. It gives me enjoyment when we have fun and both of us enjoy the dance. There is no ego involved in that. Mi casa es su casa. Your happiness is my happiness, and vice versa. True happiness and enjoyment is shared and not selfish, alone.

I think sometimes when we talk of basics certain lessons should be thaught, in addition to the salsa steps. About partner dancing, sharing...I seriously think of that as the basics just because there are many out there who think that to step is to salsa, to show off is salsa, to spin is salsa.

[peachexploration]

......, a guy must have spun the girl as fast as he could for about 20 times, before the girl scream, STOP YOU A$$ &@%!@*....

I'd like to know what salsa song sends a subliminal message to the leader to spin the follower twenty times :?: :shock: :evil: What an idiot.

Ultimately, partner dancing is dancing with someone, not to someone, or for someone. If a person wants to dance to someone or for someone they can freestyle IMO.....

You're so right, Sagitta. Just do shines in the middle of the dance floor just you and little EGO for goodness sake. :evil: :roll:

[Danish Guy]

......, a guy must have spun the girl as fast as he could for about 20 times, before the girl scream, STOP YOU A$$ &@%!@*....

I'd like to know what salsa song sends a subliminal message to the leader to spin the follower twenty times :?: :shock: :evil: What an idiot.

This reminds me :lol: :lol: :lol:

I saw a funny spin variation at an improvised show with the former Århus champs. While doing basic mambo, the leader pointed at the lady, with a look at this expression. Then leading her in about 20 spins on the spot. Then pointing at himself, at then leading himself in about 20 spins. They got some awesome technique. 8) 8) 8)

Can’t remember the song though. :wink:

[peachexploration]

.......Can’t remember the song though. :wink::lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[youngsta]

I really agree with the spirit of this thread, but I've noticed that in the salsa scene "doing the basics right and keeping it simple" often equates to "he/she has a great personality" in the world of relationships. Many people say they'd rather have nice and simple over flash, but in application most desire the feeling that flash gives them.

[SDsalsaguy]

I really agree with the spirit of this thread, but I've noticed that in the salsa scene "doing the basics right and keeping it simple" often equates to "he/she has a great personality" in the world of relationships. Many people say they'd rather have nice and simple over flash, but in application most desire the feeling that flash gives them.
Important point Youngsta... most people say what we've been saying, but their conduct, on the floor, is quite otherwise. They try to lead their super-whirly-double check-three spin-to hammerlock pattern with everyone, or they seek out the leaders seen doing such "fancy" combinations.

So what's the deal?

[borikensalsero]

I'd like to know what salsa song sends a subliminal message to the leader to spin the follower twenty times :?: :shock: :evil: What an idiot.

In NY City it seems that every body thinks any song says spin as fast as you can. It is a Spin-Top like mentality that, IMOP, comes from a lack of understanding of what the music is, and above all dancing.

[Haz]

Important point Youngsta... most people say what we've been saying, but their conduct, on the floor, is quite otherwise. They try to lead their super-whirly-double check-three spin-to hammerlock pattern with everyone, or they seek out the leaders seen doing such "fancy" combinations.

So...what about a three spin-to sweetheart position? Is that too bold for a dance floor? (It's gotta be the coolest thing me and my partner worked on and thought it'd be gold for the floor)....Then again, this will be my first club experience and I don't know what the space restrictions are and such...

Now that I think about it...wouldn't a multiple spin into a hammerlock be dangerous on the gals shoulder joint for the arm behind her back?

[Sagitta]

You look and see...if there is space and your partner can do it and likes it go ahead. However, don't do it if you are not sure there is enough space. Three spins to hammerlock isn't dangerous if the follow knows what she is doing and keeps balanced throughout, with a leader who knows what he is doing.

I personally don't do too many spins, usually. I might do one and into hammerlock, then two for another move....if the follow doesn't seem into it that's about it, but if the follow really wants spins, and sometimes they say they do, I'll just walk and spin now and then. Apart from the technical difficulty of doing them, for the follow, I don't see too much in them as I can't really groove to the music if I do spin after spin of the follow -- I don't really dig them.

[salsachinita]

I really agree with the spirit of this thread, but I've noticed that in the salsa scene "doing the basics right and keeping it simple" often equates to "he/she has a great personality" in the world of relationships. Many people say they'd rather have nice and simple over flash, but in application most desire the feeling that flash gives them.
Important point Youngsta... most people say what we've been saying, but their conduct, on the floor, is quite otherwise. They try to lead their super-whirly-double check-three spin-to hammerlock pattern with everyone, or they seek out the leaders seen doing such "fancy" combinations.

So what's the deal?

Ok guys, this is me watching too much Discovery Channel :lol: ....!

As members of the animal kingdom, the nature/instinct of displaying one's physical (read: mate-able) quality comes into play, brought upon by the (potentially) competitive environment of the club floor.

This can (and does) turn regualr guys into a bunch of peacocks, displaying everything they know, trying to stand out, in order to attract females :lol: :lol: :lol: !

[SDsalsaguy]

Haz- the move I "described" wasn't a real one, I was just throwing together some terms that would stand for a mega-move. I was trying to make the point that for as much as many people talk about the importance of good basics, they are often just as easily swayed by fancy showing off.

As far as your move, I'd follow Sagitta's point -- if you can safely lead a move in the space available, it's fine.

As far as the hammerlock thing, doubles and even triples to hammerlock aren't any more problematic than singles *if* you're dancing with someone who can (A) do that number of turns easily, and (B) is familiar with releasing the handhold to allow the extra rotations before reestablishing it. Throwing such a combination in on a new partner, before you've worked out each other's styles, strengths, and comforts is discourteous at best and provides the potential injury. Just a bad idea.

[Danish Guy]

So...what about a three spin-to sweetheart position? Is that too bold for a dance floor? (It's gotta be the coolest thing me and my partner worked on and thought it'd be gold for the floor)....Then again, this will be my first club experience and I don't know what the space restrictions are and such...

Just take it easy, and enjoy yourself.
Feel the level of your partners, starting with some simple moves, and see the reaction to your lead. If everything goes smoothly, then increase the level, and see what happens. If you have difficulties with a double spin there’s no need for the triple. Maybe the single turn to sweetheart is the right move. She has to enjoy too you know. :wink:

[Haz]

So...what about a three spin-to sweetheart position? Is that too bold for a dance floor? (It's gotta be the coolest thing me and my partner worked on and thought it'd be gold for the floor)....Then again, this will be my first club experience and I don't know what the space restrictions are and such...

Just take it easy, and enjoy yourself.
Feel the level of your partners, starting with some simple moves, and see the reaction to your lead. If everything goes smoothly, then increase the level, and see what happens. If you have difficulties with a double spin there’s no need for the triple. Maybe the single turn to sweetheart is the right move. She has to enjoy too you know. :wink:

That's the general plan with everyone cept my salsa partner in class (who is coming along of course). I don't think I'd even attempt more then two spins with anyone but her (I'm only a newb myself). And if she is lead into 2 inside spins in a row, she knows exactly what my next 3 or 4 leads will be :p. Yay for anticipated moves...

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

I really agree with the spirit of this thread, but I've noticed that in the salsa scene "doing the basics right and keeping it simple" often equates to "he/she has a great personality" in the world of relationships. Many people say they'd rather have nice and simple over flash, but in application most desire the feeling that flash gives them.

I know a number of girls that no matter how smooth and well executed you do the basics and keep it simple, they start getting bored after a while. When I see their eyes wander this is my cue to do more complicated patterns. It´s a shame though because when dancing to a slow salsa, I don´t feel like doing these moves... :(

I´ve discovered that many ladies like to get "challenged". They like to do new and complicated moves, the more complicated the better as long as they can do it. They feel a rush afterwards and look at you as though you have have given them a diamond ring. :wink:

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

As members of the animal kingdom, the nature/instinct of displaying one's physical (read: mate-able) quality comes into play, brought upon by the (potentially) competitive environment of the club floor.

LOL! :lol: :lol: Now that was funny. :wink:

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

Important point Youngsta... most people say what we've been saying, but their conduct, on the floor, is quite otherwise. They try to lead their super-whirly-double check-three spin-to hammerlock pattern with everyone, or they seek out the leaders seen doing such "fancy" combinations.

Hmm.. OK, I must admit, I sometimes do this, but only with fast salsas. :oops: When dancing with ladies that have good balance and that love to spin, I sometimes get carried away... :oops: Boy, can some ladies spin. :wink:

[Sabor]

My experience tells me so far that every lady is different and unique and can enjoy various ways to dance ranging from the basic to the complex.. the issue cannot be either or or black and white ..its all shades and moods that are affected by various factors.. the lead just needs to be very sensitive to these shades or vibes from the lady he dances with and custom make his dance to achieve highest level of satisfaction in that possible time frame.. the objectives are the same.. to reach nirvana or as close to as possible with your partner.. so u need to grow your skills and abilities to accomodate for as many 'shades' as possible ..given that u respect the music and appreciate your partner..u can hardly do wrong wether its only basic or the 1001 tricks :wink:

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

Good point Sabor and nicely put!! I agree with you. :D

[borikensalsero]

This can (and does) turn regualr guys into a bunch of peacocks, displaying everything they know, trying to stand out, in order to attract females :lol: :lol: :lol: !

lol... Good one... a peacock on steroids...

[SDsalsaguy]

Hmm, maybe instead of alpha dawgs we should start calling "that" group (especially after GR's comments about real alphas elsewhere) alpha peacocks? Wouldn't their egos just love that too? :twisted:

[Genesius Redux]

Can we say peacock on DF? :? :twisted:

[tj]

Lol! Peacocks, I love it! :D

And while the female peacock is quite plain, may I say that the female salsa version is every bit as flashy (and vain) as the male...