A few questions about vocabulary

[rubyred]

Hi!
I'm a beginner tango follower, I've been dancing for only a few weeks but seem to be progressing nicely. I'm rather broke, so i don't get to take private lessons and am still looking for teachers I'd like to take group lessons with. I've still been going to many milongas, and as I've picked up the basics (enough for me to follow any leader who's considerate enough to dance at my level) I get asked very frequently to dance and get a lot of practice this way. But after this kind of learning, I've ended up following things (intuitively) that I never learned in a group lesson, such as molinetes and barridas, which I now know what they are. But there are a few terms I've heard where the vocab list often linked here doesn't quite clear up. What exactly is an ocho cortado? Also, can someone accurately describe a boleo and how it's led and what happens, because I think i may have been led / given room for one (?) and just missed the lead, and haven't had a chance to ask teachers about it.
Also, if anyone has any advice on the Chicago tango scene specifically (teachers, milongas I might not have been to) please message me.
Thanks!

[bastet]

Hi!
I'm a beginner tango follower, I've been dancing for only a few weeks but seem to be progressing nicely. I'm rather broke, so i don't get to take private lessons and am still looking for teachers I'd like to take group lessons with. I've still been going to many milongas, and as I've picked up the basics (enough for me to follow any leader who's considerate enough to dance at my level) I get asked very frequently to dance and get a lot of practice this way. But after this kind of learning, I've ended up following things (intuitively) that I never learned in a group lesson, such as molinetes and barridas, which I now know what they are. But there are a few terms I've heard where the vocab list often linked here doesn't quite clear up. What exactly is an ocho cortado? Also, can someone accurately describe a boleo and how it's led and what happens, because I think i may have been led / given room for one (?) and just missed the lead, and haven't had a chance to ask teachers about it.
Also, if anyone has any advice on the Chicago tango scene specifically (teachers, milongas I might not have been to) please message me.
Thanks!


you might try this thread...

http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=27314

[rubyred]

thanks for the suggestion, but this is what that vocab list has to say about ochos cortados:
"Ochos Cortados
Cut eights: A common figure which is designed to allow interpretation of rhythmic music while dancing in a confined space."It doesn't really give me a visual of what that might be on the dance floor...what i am looking for is a detailed description of an ocho cortado, as well as a boleo.

[rubyred]

oops, posted double, sorry

[bordertangoman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z006zJqs4VM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSFw10k-eLA

this shows ocho cortado/milonguero cross as it is also known

[newbie]

Here you can find some short videos illustrating some things.

h t t p://w w w.tangocity.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=section&id=4&Itemid=48

Explainig the ocho cortado with words won't probably help you much but nowadays you can find anything on Youtube, for instance for an ocho cortado

h t t p://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=z006zJqs4VM

[newbie]

Ok BTM won the race but only because the Boss entered my office.

[dchester]

Ok BTM won the race but only because the Boss entered my office. HeHeHe HaHaHa

A phone call stopped me from winning.

[Zoopsia59]

Ok BTM won the race but only because the Boss entered my office.

Yeah, the nerve of these bosses who expect you to do work on the job instead of thinking, writing, breathing and dancing tango!

[rubyred]

Ah thank you for the links. I believe I now have a good idea what ocho cortado is. I guess I was confused because it looks more like a cross than an "ocho" per se.
As for boleo, I know what they look like, but how is one led and what is the technique involved?

[Ampster]

As for boleo, I know what they look like, but how is one led and what is the technique involved?

What is it? A boleo is nothing but an interupted ocho that changes direction.

How its lead: The most common is a back boleo. The leader initiates back ochos, but, before you can land the moving (crossing) behind foot, the leader braces and changes your direction from a back ocho to a front ocho. At which point, your free leg snaps, whips, rebounds as a reaction to the resolute change in direction.

Note* High boleos are nice, but make sure you have space. Do not do them in a crowded milonga. You'll kick someone. Low boleos are just as beautiful and appropriate in crowded social environmnet.

Oscr_Casas_and_low_boleos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuW7yv02hrA)

Dario"s_Tango_Guide_9_"The_Boleo" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQzmz0IL82I)

[Heather2007]

Ok BTM won the race but only because the Boss entered my office.

Hahahahahahaha wheeeezzzzz

[Heather2007]

Hi!
I'm a beginner tango follower, I've been dancing for only a few weeks but seem to be progressing nicely. I'm rather broke, so i don't get to take private lessons and am still looking for teachers I'd like to take group lessons with. I've still been going to many milongas, and as I've picked up the basics (enough for me to follow any leader who's considerate enough to dance at my level) I get asked very frequently to dance and get a lot of practice this way. But after this kind of learning, I've ended up following things (intuitively) that I never learned in a group lesson, such as molinetes and barridas, which I now know what they are. But there are a few terms I've heard where the vocab list often linked here doesn't quite clear up. What exactly is an ocho cortado? Also, can someone accurately describe a boleo and how it's led and what happens, because I think i may have been led / given room for one (?) and just missed the lead, and haven't had a chance to ask teachers about it.
Also, if anyone has any advice on the Chicago tango scene specifically (teachers, milongas I might not have been to) please message me.
Thanks!

What an attractively unforgettable name: rubyred. And good for you that despite your beginnership, you still attend milongas - AND - you dance. And that you "intuitively" follow is testament to how easily you gel with the dance. That said, attending a class is always a good thing (no need to throw money at private 1-2-1s if the class you eventually find is technically good and generously forgiving) as you will get to focus more on the technique of not only the walking but the stuff that the guys here have already outlined/explained to you. Happy dancing.

[bastet]

Ah thank you for the links. I believe I now have a good idea what ocho cortado is. I guess I was confused because it looks more like a cross than an "ocho" per se.
As for boleo, I know what they look like, but how is one led and what is the technique involved?


there are a lot of different ways to lead a follower to a crossed position. Ocho cortado is one of them and there's bunches of different ways to lead an ocho cortado also, with the general effect ending up crossing in front of the leader.

[bordertangoman]

Ok BTM won the race but only because the Boss entered my office.

aha Posto Cortado!

[bordertangoman]

there are a lot of different ways to lead a follower to a crossed position. Ocho cortado is one of them and there's bunches of different ways to lead an ocho cortado also, with the general effect ending up crossing in front of the leader.

I agree. I keep a lump of sugar in my pocket for reluctant followers. It works wonders!;)

[bastet]

I agree. I keep a lump of sugar in my pocket for reluctant followers. It works wonders!;)

I have a shirt that says "I'll be nicer if you give me chocolate" ;)

[Zoopsia59]

aha Posto Cortado!

BWA HA HA!!!!

:uplaugh:

[jennyisdancing]

I'm a beginner tango follower, I've been dancing for only a few weeks but seem to be progressing nicely. I'm rather broke, so i don't get to take private lessons and am still looking for teachers I'd like to take group lessons with. I've still been going to many milongas, and as I've picked up the basics (enough for me to follow any leader who's considerate enough to dance at my level) I get asked very frequently to dance and get a lot of practice this way

Man, am I envious! Anyone who has seen my posts knows that I am, for the most part, not an intuitive follower. I am very dance trained, and I can pick up steps very quickly, but generally, I learn nothing about following and partnering skills by just social dancing. It has to be spelled out for me in a class. And in my area, beginners do not get asked frequently to dance. :( Consider yourself very lucky, rubyred, and welcome. :D

[Steve Pastor]

Hey, rubyred, welcome to our sometimes crazy world!
For you, it's very important to extablish a stable axis on your standing foot to make the boleo possible. The leader will either feel this stability, about which he can create a "turning force", or he won't. If he doesn't feel it, he may not even try to lead the boleo.
As Ampster wrote, he will step "around" you, then reverse direction quite suddenly.
I would say, forget about automatically following a "back boleo", which is behind your standing leg, with a front boleo, which is of course in front of your standing leg. If you do the front one automatically after the back one, and it wasn't led.... the reaction may vary.
You can practice the motion yourself to get a feel for it, but again, try to for the most part only use as much energy as you are given by the lead, especially if you are doing a back boleo.

Some of our female contributors may want to comment on the most appealing way to hold your foot while doing the boleo.
If you are doing it low, and on the floor (preferred in crowded conditions or if you aren't sure your leader can be trusted) it will look good if you keep the inside border of your foot on the floor.
Off the floor??? Zoops, bastet, Jenny, Peaches??? anyone?


Here's a fuller explanation of the term. Most of us leave out the tripping part!

Boleo - From bolear - To throw: A boleo may be executed either high or low. Keeping the knees together, with one leg back, swivel and return on the supporting leg with a whipping action of the working leg. Sometimes spelled Voleo. - See Latigazo. According to the official dictionary of the RAE (Spanish Language Academy), "boleo" is simply the act of "bolear" and that means to throw "boleadoras" to trip an animal and make it fall.

[bastet]

Hey, rubyred, welcome to our sometimes crazy world!
For you, it's very important to extablish a stable axis on your standing foot to make the boleo possible. The leader will either feel this stability, about which he can create a "turning force", or he won't. If he doesn't feel it, he may not even try to lead the boleo.
As Ampster wrote, he will step "around" you, then reverse direction quite suddenly.
I would say, forget about automatically following a "back boleo", which is behind your standing leg, with a front boleo, which is of course in front of your standing leg. If you do the front one automatically after the back one, and it wasn't led.... the reaction may vary.
You can practice the motion yourself to get a feel for it, but again, try to for the most part only use as much energy as you are given by the lead, especially if you are doing a back boleo.

Some of our female contributors may want to comment on the most appealing way to hold your foot while doing the boleo.
If you are doing it low, and on the floor (preferred in crowded conditions or if you aren't sure your leader can be trusted) it will look good if you keep the inside border of your foot on the floor.
Off the floor??? Zoops, bastet, Jenny, Peaches??? anyone?


Here's a fuller explanation of the term. Most of us leave out the tripping part!

Boleo - From bolear - To throw: A boleo may be executed either high or low. Keeping the knees together, with one leg back, swivel and return on the supporting leg with a whipping action of the working leg. Sometimes spelled Voleo. - See Latigazo. According to the official dictionary of the RAE (Spanish Language Academy), "boleo" is simply the act of "bolear" and that means to throw "boleadoras" to trip an animal and make it fall.


I do toe pointed - foot fully energized...almost nothing looks as bad as a floppy foot boleo.

[jennyisdancing]

I do toe pointed - foot fully energized...almost nothing looks as bad as a floppy foot boleo.

this is the other reason I like classes. Aside from learning good partnering skills, the followers learn nice lines and positions, and the dance looks so much more beautiful.

[rubyred]

Hey, rubyred, welcome to our sometimes crazy world!
For you, it's very important to extablish a stable axis on your standing foot to make the boleo possible. The leader will either feel this stability, about which he can create a "turning force", or he won't. If he doesn't feel it, he may not even try to lead the boleo.
As Ampster wrote, he will step "around" you, then reverse direction quite suddenly.
I would say, forget about automatically following a "back boleo", which is behind your standing leg, with a front boleo, which is of course in front of your standing leg. If you do the front one automatically after the back one, and it wasn't led.... the reaction may vary.
You can practice the motion yourself to get a feel for it, but again, try to for the most part only use as much energy as you are given by the lead, especially if you are doing a back boleo.

Some of our female contributors may want to comment on the most appealing way to hold your foot while doing the boleo.
If you are doing it low, and on the floor (preferred in crowded conditions or if you aren't sure your leader can be trusted) it will look good if you keep the inside border of your foot on the floor.
Off the floor??? Zoops, bastet, Jenny, Peaches??? anyone?


Here's a fuller explanation of the term. Most of us leave out the tripping part!

Boleo - From bolear - To throw: A boleo may be executed either high or low. Keeping the knees together, with one leg back, swivel and return on the supporting leg with a whipping action of the working leg. Sometimes spelled Voleo. - See Latigazo. According to the official dictionary of the RAE (Spanish Language Academy), "boleo" is simply the act of "bolear" and that means to throw "boleadoras" to trip an animal and make it fall.

thank you to everyone for all the welcomes :) I'm happy to have finally registered instead of lurking. After reading some of the posts here while lurking, I do realize I'm lucky to be asked often to dance. I know I've been led to do boleos from your description, steve pastor, and I was worried that I had been missing some extra thing I was supposed to do while the switch from back to front ocho was happening but it seems not, as low boleos are possible and encouraged.

[mshedgehog]

But there are a few terms I've heard where the vocab list often linked here doesn't quite clear up. What exactly is an ocho cortado?An interrupted ocho. It is when you do a forward ocho - step across yourself - towards your left, then start a sidestep around him (still going to your left), and transfer some of the weight, but then before you've transferred all the weight and collected your feet he stops it and you go back to your right instead of continuing around. That's what it's called, though it hardly deserves a name. Some leaders do a sort of half-hearted one where they don't put any weight at all in the sidestep.

As I think you have already worked out, it is absolutely unnecessary to know the name of anything and if you get to thinking "oh, this is an ocho cortado, I know how it ends", the quality of your dancing goes down instead of up. Because he also has the choice to continue around in the same direction - unless you anticipate.

Following the thought: With a lot of leaders you will not be able to help knowing in advance what happens next, for example because they don't put any weight in the sidestep. The good ones are the ones when you really, really don't know what the next step is going to be, and consequently you don't have to think at all - just concentrate. Which is harder, but more interesting. There aren't many of those, but they are very good for your dancing.

Also, can someone accurately describe a boleo and how it's led and what happens, because I think i may have been led / given room for one (?).= "whip" - it is led as a sort of over-turned ocho, with extra momentum. I've seen it witten both 'boleo' and 'voleo'. They only start to work really well when your body has worked out how to keep the hip up without holding the thigh joint in a particular position. This took me a long time, your mileage may vary. The only things I think I actually needed to know about them are that they are fully led, not an ornament, and that they are quite difficult to lead well. Anyway you just allow whatever momentum you get to go through your body and create the whipping action naturally, you don't exaggerate it (unless for show, I suppose).

Social Tip: Sometimes, they will accidentally or thoughtlessly overcook it and give you tons of momentum so that you do a high one on a social dance floor. In that case (in my view - some may disagree and I won't argue) it is our responsibility as followers to keep the heels of our shoes down near the floor; unfortunately that can mean we have to break concentration and absorb the error in our own bodies, which is not great for our dancing, and it's surprising how much it can hurt. And a mistimed whip-lead, even for a low one, can really wrench your back.

[Ampster]

... I was worried that I had been missing some extra thing I was supposed to do while the switch from back to front ocho was happening but it seems not, as low boleos are possible and encouraged.

Yes, they are (my bold). Most especially on a crowded dance floor. You only do high boleos if you have the space.

Some women insist on doing high boleos, and end up kicking people. Sometimes (in the summertime), I wear one of these Seattle icons (click here) (http://www.utilikilts.com/), and my calves have been cut and slashed a few times from wayward flailing stiletto heels of death.

btw, WELCOME to DF, rubyred! :friend:

Where are you from?

[Angel HI]

Welcome to the DF, RubyRed.

As you can see, you will receive a world of sound advice here. Thanks Steve and Amps. Most of this, IMHO, is just too complicated of an explanation...ochos...incompletions...changing directions. Allow me to approach boleo from a slightly different perspective.

I teach it as another Argentine (who's name is also Angel, :) ) does. Think of the boleo as the natural swinging of the leg interrupted. For clarity, do this with the arm.....

Swing one arm "freely" lifting fairly well (for effect). Now stick the other arm in the swinging arm's way (at the elbow). See how the the swinging arm simply bends at the elbow...wrapping, in a sense, sround the held arm; and continues to swing. This is boleo...the natural swinging of the leg interrupted by "one's own leg or body".

For future usage, when this natural swinging of the leg is interrupted, in the same manner, by the partner's leg or body, it is "gancho" (albeit, the same action). Hope this further helps. And, again...welcome.

[rubyred]

Yes, they are (my bold). Most especially on a crowded dance floor. You only do high boleos if you have the space.

Some women insist on doing high boleos, and end up kicking people. Sometimes (in the summertime), I wear one of these Seattle icons (click here) (http://www.utilikilts.com/), and my calves have been cut and slashed a few times from wayward flailing stiletto heels of death.

btw, WELCOME to DF, rubyred! :friend:

Where are you from?
Hmm tango in a kilt? seems like a clash of cultures :P
I try to be pretty conscious of my own potentially lethal stilettos myself, as i've been told it's not just the leader's job to keep bumps and kicks from happening.
Although somewhere else online, i believe it was in a blog, I read something mentioning leaders maliciously using followers as weapons against other leads they don't like. I refuse to believe these maniacal leaders actually exist...
And I am from Chicago. Thanks for the welcome!

[bordertangoman]

I endevour to teach boleos: it requires a relaxed free leg; the lead is a circular pivot in one direction then arrested sharply and/or reversed so the momentum of the free leg carries around in an arc while the torso statts to turn the other diraction. so a lot of twist in the body. When the followers leg is relaxed (mostly at the hip) the lead can feel when they leg whips.

[Zoopsia59]

As Ampster wrote, he will step "around" you, then reverse direction quite suddenly.
I would say, forget about automatically following a "back boleo", which is behind your standing leg, with a front boleo, which is of course in front of your standing leg. If you do the front one automatically after the back one, and it wasn't led.... the reaction may vary.


Keep in mind that a boleo can be led without the leader taking a step. A sudden reversal of direction in a standing pivot (which the leader is creating simply by his own torso movement) can result in a boleo.

Although I don't like how many extra steps they use in their videos of specific moves, the Dario's Tango Guide instruction of boleos is good. Just don't get confused by all the steps being shown AROUND the boleo.

As for the back to front... the front boleo following a back boleo is LED. If it isnt' led, don't do it. You should be attempting to come to collected middle after a boleo. Going to the front without the front part being led is usually due to a lack of control of the swinging free leg. If the leader isn't planning on you coming to the front, it could get scary. At the very least it may make it hard for you to go on to what is led next quickly enough if your free leg is wrapped around the front of your standing leg.

If you are very fast, you can allow the leg to come front WITHOUT RAISING IT as a front beat embellishment at the ankle. But be prepared to return it quickly to middle and move on. If the leader is very sharp, he might realize your front embellishment and decide to lead you out of it in a forward step of some kind. But more likely, he will just be thrown off by having the follower do an unexpected front boleo after a back boleo.

Quite a few leaders lead the front after the back. So if you aren't sure of how it feels different to have it led or not, that would be a good thing to ask a good leader to do with you at a practica. Have him do both so you can feel the difference between him leading it, not leading it, and you doing it because you aren't in control of your momentum (or are giving it too much)

[Zoopsia59]

Some of our female contributors may want to comment on the most appealing way to hold your foot while doing the boleo.
If you are doing it low, and on the floor (preferred in crowded conditions or if you aren't sure your leader can be trusted) it will look good if you keep the inside border of your foot on the floor.
Off the floor??? Zoops, bastet, Jenny, Peaches??? anyone?

My opinion is that if you are leaving it on the floor then it works and looks best to have the inside of the big toe area in contact grazing the floor. Trying to get a part of the inside of your foot further back on the foot (such as the metatarsal) onto the floor is rather awkward depending on your ankle flexibility, your heel height, etc. Of course the tip of your toe would be fine as well if you can't get any twist at your ankle to get the inside down.

If you make contact with the floor with any part of the outside of your foot (even just the big toe) it means your foot is "sickled" and that doesn't look good.

Off the floor... well now you're getting into one of the hardest parts of beautiful tango form... keeping energy all the way through your foot while keeping everything relaxed enough to respond properly and dance well. "Floppy fish feet"... NOT attractive. But tension to keep the foot energized will mess up everything else.

Energy vs tension...Its a fine line and each person has to find it in their own body.

Generally, I try to go for the best pointed foot i can when my foot is off the floor. But even my best point isn't going to be as beautiful as some ladies' because I don't have those great high arches. And if I get too crazy about it, I end up with tension in my leg. So you have to find your own fine line of energized enough to keep the foot from flopping, but not so much that you stiffen larger muscle groups that need to be relaxed (especially around the joints)

Your foot is connected to your leg with a joint, AND has quite a few joints within it. WORK THROUGH the foot to the tip rather than trying to "hold" the foot in a certain position at the ankle.

[Angel HI]

Inside/Ouside edges, w/ intent, but w/ a relaxed leg...while energy/rotation on the weighted leg. Most difficult.

[Zoopsia59]

flailing stiletto heels of death.



Bwa Ha Ha... Sounds like a B grade horror movie.

Followed by "Son of (or I guess it should be daughter of) The Flailing Stiletto Heels of Death!"

Come to think of it, it sounds more like a chok-socky movie (bad marital arts movie) than a horror movie.

[Peaches]

Welcome to the DF, RubyRed.

As you can see, you will receive a world of sound advice here. Thanks Steve and Amps. Most of this, IMHO, is just too complicated of an explanation...ochos...incompletions...changing directions. Allow me to approach boleo from a slightly different perspective.

I teach it as another Argentine (who's name is also Angel, :) ) does. Think of the boleo as the natural swinging of the leg interrupted. For clarity, do this with the arm.....

Swing one arm "freely" lifting fairly well (for effect). Now stick the other arm in the swinging arm's way (at the elbow). See how the the swinging arm simply bends at the elbow...wrapping, in a sense, sround the held arm; and continues to swing. This is boleo...the natural swinging of the leg interrupted by "one's own leg or body".

For future usage, when this natural swinging of the leg is interrupted, in the same manner, by the partner's leg or body, it is "gancho" (albeit, the same action). Hope this further helps. And, again...welcome.Eesh...strange...that is EXACTLY how my teacher demonstrates boleos and, especially, ganchos. EXACTLY.

[Angel HI]

Eesh...strange...that is EXACTLY how my teacher demonstrates boleos and, especially, ganchos. EXACTLY.


Exactly...like me? He must be brillant! :cool: Just kidding........ http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/ashamed/ashamed0007.gif