Swing Population Thinning?

[Black Sheep]

De'ja' Vu,
In the 1950's, Swing in New York City died in the womb where it was born, nourished and finally abandoned for the new more virile Mambo. Today Swing is going down the same drain pipe, because it is being abandoned for the new more virile Salsa. Just compare the Salsa dance population with the Swing dance population in Southern California today in 2003. I lived through this same 'Devolution of Swing' in New York City in the 1950's that is taking place here in Southern California in the 2010's.
I wrote a commentary on this subject some six months ago and the Swing population was diminishibg significantly then. The problem is worsening, and one Venue host answered my question, "Why is the Swing population thinning out?" The answer was significant, "I don't know, but I'm not hanging around to find out!" So one of the most popular Venues closes down this month with another one hosting only twenty couples on a Friday night is hanging on by the teeth.
So what's my point? Am I just another 'Doomsday' reporter?
Swing dancing along with other Ballroom Dances have saved my sanity, given me an improved physical health, cured my shyness, opened up an outrageous social life, and even after 80 years dancing continues to give me benefits that no medicine, doctors or money could give me. So when I have some erudite suggestions to help this ailing American Cultural Art form that has benefited the World at large, I want to share them with the hope my suggestions take root and help bring back Swing to the front burner of social life.
First let us explore some of the problems, and I do not feel that Salsa' ever growing popularity in Southern California (S.C.), as some commentator wrote a few months back that "Salsa was killing Swing". In the 1950's both Mambo and Swing were equally popular in Hollywood. I was there operating the most successful dance studio in that town, so I speak as a primary source. But what are some of the reasons for the continual 'thinning out' of the dance population here in S.C.? And what steps and strategy can we take to adrenalize this anemic art/sport?
DANCE TEACHERS: There is a serious lack of qualified teachers who are on a daily basis discouraging students rather then inspiring them. When a student pays $5.00 or $50'00 for a lesson, they should at least be able to lead and follow a few dance moves 'ON BEAT, RHYTHMICALLY'. If a person can walk rhythmical, which we a;all do, than they are capable of dancing within one hours lesson be it private or class. If you as a teacher are unable to get them on a dance floor with a variety of dancers, then you do not qualify as a dance teacher. Swing is that easy to learn!
VENUE HOSTS: YOUR BUSINESS DEPENDS ON LARGE NUMBERS PATRONIZING YOUR DANCE HALLS.
Free dance lessons are a must if you want the Swing/Lindy population to grow. I strongly suggest that the teachers you hire, DO NOT teach complicated, flashy movements or give intimidating demonstrations that discourage beginners. Your Venue teachers should focus on simple basics so the students can enjoy dancing that same night. And hire a half dozen volunteer monitors to continue dancing with 'BEGINNERS' from the class. Forget about the good dancers, You free classes are for bringing in new patrons into your Venue to fill your coffers. It's good business for you that will pay off as the Swing populations grows.
I feel that old experienced teachers are not always the best. Teachers in all fields are subject to 'BURN OUT'. Enthusiasm of new teachers is often more affective in keeping a student focused and interested than fancy smancy moves that experienced teachers present, and then are forgotten when the exit door hits the student in the ass!.
Lastly, I have published my 'SIMPLIFIED SWING' TEACHING METHOD' in two books, but for whatever reasons, my 'Revolutionary System' has not been adapted.
THE PROBLEM WITH TEACHERS AND VENUE HOSTS IS SIMPLY, 'YOU LIKE TO MILK THE COW, BUT YOU DON'T LIKE TO BUY THE HEY'.

Black Sheep d.lanza@netzero.net
PS Don't forget to vote for the Simplified Swing Magic Pill:
YES, for me to describe the 'Teaching Method' on the Internet!
NO, do not make the Simplified Teaching Method public!

[Vince A]

I agree that Salsa is on the rise in many venues, but Swing, especially WCS (and Hustle) is also on the rise in the venues that I attend. It's nearly impossible find a 'slot' to dance WCS to at many of the events that I've been to this year - maybe 150 - 200 couples on the floor! However, in the Salsa room, there may be only 5 - 15 couples on the floor at any given time. There used to be only 2 - 5 last year!

On the flip side, I do see more and more at each event attending the Salsa classes, albeit, that's not saying that there are less at the Swing classes. The Swing class has easily 200 people on the floor learning yet "another" pattern. B-O-R-I-N-G!

There have been several movies out in the past few years that focused mainly on Salsa/Latin/Dirty dancing, yet the the last movie on Swing that I can recall at this moment is "Swing Kids." So Salsa is noticed more!

So Swing isn't diminishing, if anything, more and more people are learning the Shag, the Lindy, the ECS, and others, right along with the WCS. I am a prime example. I was getting burnt out of WCS and Hustle, so I took up Salsa group and private lessons. In one class was an instructor who teaches the Lindy and the Shag, but never learned the WCS. Now, we are trading off classes and I attend her classes and take privates from her, and I'm teaching her the WCS.

Diminishing? No!
Spreading our wings? Yes!

[Liz076]

I think if the swing tradition is really dying, it's due to a lack of education in some areas. I've met too many people that didn't even know about the existence of swing dancing. I myself thought that it had died out even though I was in to classical dancing until I happened to meet someone who did it as a hobby. If it was offered more and publicized more, then maybe we could get more people "hooked!" :lol:

[DanceMentor]

About 6 years ago when Brian Setzer came out with "Jump, Jive and Wail" and Big Bad Voodoo Daddy came out with their album, the swing I saw people doing at clubs was the simple "Side, side, rock step". It was easy and fun for everybody. Two years later the Swing addicts were dominating the dance floor and doing complex Lindy and WCS patterns. This proved complex and intimidating for the average beginner and there was a decline. Hopefully, there will be a new resurgence that will likely start with the music world.

[Swing Kitten]

But while the super snazzy dancers may be intimadating to some beginners they serve as a great source of motivation for others. It's best to have a health mix I'd presume. Essencially the dance needs people to start as well as people to stick with it and maximize their potential to acheive such a mix. I also think that people need to feel that they're not the 'worst' dancer on the floor for very long. I can be discouraging.

Joe has some good points: the ability of the teacher to provide a solid ground-work for the dancers to grow on is essential for the (majority) of first-few-time-out dancers. I see lots of teachers failing to install basic rhythm as the focus of dance, and teaching sloppy technique instead.

I think Swing Kitten also has some good points: Where do those newer dancers want to go? Without a 'goal', they are missing one key element that started the 'revival' to begin with.

DanceMentor also has some points (see a pattern?): Two years ago, there wer enot as many advanced dancers. Two years before that there were even less dancers who were tuely into the music and dance as a lifestyle more than just a fad.

However, I don't think that's a bad thing, in fact it means that the scene is growing, and I wouldn't base the loss of new people on the growth of more advanced dancers. If you have 50 'advanced' people and 100 new in a crowd, or 100 'advanced' and 100 new, I don't see the difference in the view of newer people, except that they'd have a wider viewpoint of possibilities they can watch, dance with and learn from.

Just my thoughts; I would look elsewhere than advanced dancers as a reasoning if one were to say that swing is 'losing it's hold', perhaps even along similar lines. But I'd say it's stronger base of passion since it's first 'era' passed can ensure it lasts for a long, long time once again. However, whether it has the draw of new people to keep as many venues open is a great topic brought up here.

I like the thought you bring up, DanceMentor, about the change in swing becoming a house-hold dance starting with the music first.

Again, just my thoughts :D
-FF

[Vince A]

This issue has been around a while . . . proof . . .


"Some folks say That Swing's Not Here To Stay
And That It's Dying Out
But I Can Prove It's In The Groove
And They Don't Know What They're Talking About."
--Marion Hutton 1939 vocal with the Glenn Miller band.

[Swing Kitten]

Well we can't really say that it is dying out.

I haven't been in it long enough to really be of any use in detecting patterns of crowd sizes. Also, this is something that could easily vary from location to location. Since one dance scene does not nessesarily reflect all of swing dancing so this would put sole personal experience in the 'not so useful' catagory without representatives form multiple other locations giving their input as well.

Another question, What role does economics play in this? Does dancing carry as much importance in times of posperity? I could see if things aren't going too well finacially for folks that that could cut back on the amount of time they spend dancing... however I can also see how if things aren't going so well for folks that they would need the sort of escape dancing would provide. I'll leave this one to the historians though... I am not adaquately informed in subject.

The Depression Era (circa 1929-1939) and the explosion of Lindy Hop as a dance coincided. Many historians tie them together, as dancing became more than just a casual way to escape issues, but a lifestyle - some would even bring their babies and children into the Savoy, for one example, in the afternoon and stay all day.

But whether someone was 'escaping' or 'wallowing' in the hard times, or looking for jubilant music to fit their mood, jazz and blues music was there for many of them in their homes, on the streets, in the house parties, on the car radios (developed 1929).

That was a large difference, the music infiltration into the cribs and beds of people when they slept, and the awareness of it during the day. Which is why I like DanceMentor's drop about it starting with the music, the other half of the marriage ;)

-FF

[MissAlyssa]

I disagree. There has been an increasing number of people asking for swing when they come to take dance lessons.

Sorry, what is it you disagree with?

-FF

[MissAlyssa]

I disagree that the swing population is thinning.

[Swing Kitten]

It very well may not be. Although it would make perfect sense for it to fluctuate.

Also there's the difference between thinning and dying. Am I correct in saying that swing dancing enjoy a popular resurrgance around the same time as the release of Swing Kids? If so, since then hasn't it experienced a decline from that period of hype? Into a healthy scene?

I could be mistaken of course.

[MissAlyssa]

the ballroom dance community has actually increased in size and activity since the realease of many updated dance movies and dance related shows on television.

[Swing Kitten]

does ballroom and social swing dancing correlate?

[MissAlyssa]

well, swing is considered a ballroom dance. we teach many different types of swing dances at our studio and we show how to social dance to swing...I don't know if that makes it a social ballroom dance or not... :?:

[Swing Kitten]

but I would agree that media attention would increase the amount of new comers... it only makes sense... put enough media attention on anything and more people are bound to try it... but especially when it seems people enjoy themselves.

[d nice]

well, swing is considered a ballroom dance. we teach many different types of swing dances at our studio and we show how to social dance to swing...I don't know if that makes it a social ballroom dance or not... :?:

Depends entirely on ones definitions. I normally consider Swing outside of Ballroom dance though a number of studios teach it. A lot of it has to do with what is focused on. Most Swing dance performances/comp. divisions I've seen I barely recognize the dance. While a number of the moves are similar or even the same the manner in which they are executed is very different from its roots. I personally have no issue with this it's like American Tango to Argentinian Tango. Two different very dances that share the same name. One is not superior over the other (though some people love to argue this) they just appeal to different people for different reasons.

What kind of swing dances do you guys teach at your studio?

I've always kind of thought that the energy/spirit of the dance is what first caused the explosion in the depression, and again during it's "rebirth". The more interesting and exciting the dance and the dance scene, the bigger the crowds.

[MissAlyssa]

we can teach EC, WCS, lindy, jive, boogie..basically if the student asks for it..they get it. we mostly do EC, WCS.

[Black Sheep]

SwingKitten,
Any dance that involves two people dancing in unison with one leading while the other follows, can be considered a Ballroom dance from the Minuet to the Polka. The fact that there are many styles of Swing dancing with various names does not exclude them as ballroom dances; the character of a unique dance is determined by 1) the music it is danced to (although this can be very flexible), 2) the rhythmic patterns, 3) the mood and 4) the style of the body, leg and foot movements. The Savoy Lindy is the generic of all Swing dances whether they be WCS, ECS, Boogie Woogie, or Joshua's Jive.
The traditional Ballroom dances like Foxtrot, Waltz, Slicker dances, Peabody, Pasadoble', Marengo, Samba, Tango, Shag, Balboa, Bossa Nova, and Swing all fit within these parameters of the definition of Ballroom dances. There are 'borderline' dances like Disco Dancing, the Big Apple which is a series of single step dances, and the Charleston that are done mostly without hand contacts, but If we don't call them SOCIAL Ballroom dances, Who has got a better categorical name for those Borderline dances, and who cares?
Black Sheep, one who does care.

[Swing Kitten]

I see your point Joe that every partner dance has its place in the ballroom although I don't think it's that cut and dry. I wasn't asking if swing was a ballroom dance... just if it's popularity correlated with that of other ballroom dances.

[d nice]

Lets remember to keep our posts on topic. A little bit of "migration" within a post is fine of course, but please try and include at least a few sentences to the threads topic.

If you want to persue a tangent feel free to start a new topic and reference it in the thread that spawned it.

That said I think that enrollment at a studio will increase/decrease with any rise of public attention to partner dance. I think it goes without saying that specific dances will have fluctuations depending on popular trends, and studios will experience spill-over in their other dances.

Personally I don't think that the swing population is thinning... I think it has done all th ethinning it is going to do and is actually stabilized, and has been so for awhle now. With the economy I do feel that students seeking instruction has thinned out. Dance lessons are a "luxuary item" for most people, not the necessity of life most of us probably view it as.

[Black Sheep]

Swing Kitten,
Swing has always been taught as a Ballrooim dance, Although you have a 'Swing Crowd', and a Salsa Crowd, and a 'Tango Crowd', etc; They have always been taught as Ballrooim dances in the same studios.
In a previous post, I have called attention to the 'Thinning of the Swing crowd these past three years as a warning of what happened in 1963 and what can happen if we do not take steps to nourish the Swing trend. A few of the suggestions I made were the following:
1) Giving free lessons at the various Swing Venues;
2) Employing Qualified Instructors;
3) And using efficient teraching techniques such as my Magioc Pilkl which I have distributed freely with no strings attached to over 11,000 Swing fans at my own cost in money, time and creative eneregy.
Much of the Salsa's popularity is due to its simplicity in learning; all you have to do is take three steps with a pause on the fourth beat and do whatever the imagination dictates with your body.
If we can sinplify the teaching and learing of Swing, than we all benefit; dancers, teachers, dance studios, dance shoe companies, and future Swing dancers world wide. And then we can begin to stem this Thinning Swing population.
That is my commitment and reason for simplifying the structure of Swing with my Magic Pill or by whatever other means.

Is Swing a Ballroom Dance? My vote for whatrever it is worth, Absolutely!
Black Sheep, your Ballroom dance instructor for over 50 years.

[d nice]

The only dances that have always been taught in Ballroom studios are ballroom studio created dances. Thankfully they tend to be flashes in the pan and only dances that develop naturally from music "by the people" tend to really catch on.

The Macerena and Ketchup are perfect modern examples.

The charleston has been around since the late teens, saw a rebirth as the mashed potato, the kick step (aka the "kid-n-play"), the skank, and wham rebirth in its various forms of the twenties and thirties in the late ninties and still going.

Since late 2001 I've noticed a stabilization in the scenes through North America. There is fluctuation but nothing too wild. A number of clubs closed by 2000, the fad had shifted to Salsa. Clubs that were unwilling to change their business models closed our changed to latin music. However by the very next year new clubs were opening catering to dancers.

With the close of the clubs a significant number of people who had started to teach for ego boosts and the urge to be trendy disappeared. They often didn't have the passion or dedication to become good teachers. Buh-bye.

Those left started questioning the methods in which they had been taught looking for new, different, and better ways. No more rote memorization, no more arbitrary statements with no concept about why it should be done this way. At least not as much. :)

While the "Summer of the Daddies" lined my pockets, and filled my club, I'm happier with my studio, my teaching, my students, and my scene the way it is now.

[Swing Kitten]

While the "Summer of the Daddies" lined my pockets, and filled my club, I'm happier with my studio, my teaching, my students, and my scene the way it is now.

Hear! Hear!

I like that it is no longer just the "in" thing, as helpful as it may have been for getting the word out and creating greater accessibiliy.

I also feel that there is not the need to simplify the dance. I think in trying to do so something will inevitablly be lost. The basics are not that hard or complicated as they are and I think it's perfectly fine for a new dancer to work for their accomplishments... that way, they truely are accomplishments. People value what they work for so while we shouldn't try to make it difficult, why take that away?

[Swing Kitten]

Lets remember to keep our posts on topic. A little bit of "migration" within a post is fine of course, but please try and include at least a few sentences to the threads topic.

There is a thread entiled East Coast Swing, Ballroom or Non-Ballroom gathering dust if you care to read what some others have already said about the subject. I personally do not feel the overwheming urge to disscuss it but enjoy the reading! :)

[Black Sheep]

WCS swingers,
It looks like the dance crowds at the Swing Venues are increasing significantly. The PBDA and Lindy Groove are thriving with hardly elbow room, and the Joshua's 3rd Street Santa Monica Promenade open air free admission Venue is drawing by far the largest crowds of audience of all the attractions on the 3rd Street Mall. What is left of our remaining Swing Venues looks good.
However, do the crowds get larger because the Venues are fewer in number? I hope not. Perhaps it's 'Survival of the Fittest'. All three Venues mentioned do an entertaining job with their choice music, thanks to good D. J.'s and the ambiance at all three is attractive, especially the 3rd Street promenade with fleecy clouds for a ceiling, an ocean breeze for air conditioning, and an appreciative audience of Sunday visitors to applaud the dancers. And it's free?
Black Sheep, dancing on the Sunny Side of that 3rd Street.

[dancergal]

It's hard to say the Swing population is thinning if you ever attend a WCS dance convention. The dance floor is usually packed with dancers and doesn't thin out until the wee hours of the morning. Talk about bumper cars!

[Black Sheep]

Dancergirl,
When this thread started a couple of months ago, several Swing Venues closed down, and I asked some Venue hosts why, and they confirmed my suspicions then by saying they weren't getting the crowds anymore. But since some of the Venues closed down, the crowds are looking bigger. The only logical explanation I can give is there were too many Venues splitting the same pie. Now that there are fewer Venues the crowds are larger.
Having said that, I am always anxious when I attend my weekly venues and seem to observe many of last weeks patrons not returning. Swing or any type of dancing is habitual weekly social event for most dancers. I wonder why too many faces do not return. And how long can we expect the well of potential dancers NOT to run dry?
I'm an optimist and positive in my outlook, but I personally experienced the ballroom dance debacle in the early 1960's. What replaced Swing, Mambo, Cha Cha, and the Slicker dances was the Trwist and Disco which was a 'turn off' for most of the ballroom dancers. So if I appear a little paranoid about the survival of Swing in particular, it is because I saw Swing/Lindy almost disappear from the social arena in the early 60's.
That is why I encourage in any way I can to attract anybody to Swing dancing in particular.
It is a dance that has kept me healthy and sane, and I want others to share in this therapeutic wholesome American sport or Performing Art whatever.
I developed the Magic Pill with this in mind, to make it quick, easy and inexpensive to get started dancing Swing. And if there is another way to simplify the teaching and learning the Lindy, I sincerely will endorsed it.
Black Sheep, always looking for greener pastures

[borntodnce]

Hi,

I'm new to the forum and took notice of this thread. I'm in the St. Louis area and can tell you that swing is most definately alive in the midwest. We have 6 swing dance clubs (and at least 1 Lindy club that I know of) here whose members gather and dance at any venue we can find playing music. Additionally, each club hosts a Saturday or Sunday night dance at least once a month in a hall or bar in the area. Several of the clubs host a Tuesday or Wednesday evening every week at local bars. And nearly every event is packed.

Inexpensive or free group lessons are offered by several clubs. I help teach at one of them. We usually have so many people for our weekly group lessons that it's difficult to find someplace big enough. Another group I belong to does dance demonstrations at local events to make others aware of the dance community. I think that is important because I just started swing dancing 2 years ago and prior to that I had no idea the dance clubs existed.

We do a mix of EC and WC here and call it Imperial. Although we do have a fair amount of people who prefer straight WCS. :)

[Black Sheep]

Borntodance,
Welcome to the friendliest forum in the USA. You bring good news. If the Mid West is Swinging, then my fears are allayed. Since your new to the forum, check out a previous post 'The Magic Pill"; since you teach Swing, you might get some ideas from the Commentary. If the Commerntary is buried too far back from the 'Last 50 Posts', Email me the word, 'YES' and I'll Email you a copy of the "Magic Pill' <d.LANZA @netzero.net>
If you are into vintage 1950's Hollywood dance photos of the prime dancers in that time and place, log on to <WWW.LINDYBYLANZA.COM> and download to your hearts content. Just respect my Copyrights.
Let us hear more about you and your activities.
Black Sheep aka Joe Lanza

[MissAlyssa]

I heard this from another person the other day...that swing is back in the midwest in a big way!

[Vince A]

C'mon over here to mid-state CA . . . WCS, WCS, Lindy . . . Anytime and anwhere! SWING IS ALIVE!

Salsa is hot and it's not a meat market . . .
All theother Latin dances are big . . .
Ballroom is also big . . .
C&W is very big . . .

But Swing is the most requested!

[MissAlyssa]

we have had so many people come into the studio asking for swing. :o

[Black Sheep]

Dancers,
If you want to see and dance a grreat variety of Ballroom dances in one afternoon within a two block area, the Santa Monica Promemade Mall on Sundays has Salza, Argentine Tango, WCS, and Joshua's Jive Venues from 4 to 8 O'clock every Sunday; Joshua 's Swing Session is on every 1st, 3rd and 5th Sunday with Swing, Cha Cha and Mambo thrown in. A great day at the dances, Sunday on the Santa Monoicas Promemade Mall.
Tell them Joe Lanza sent you, and you get in free!
Black Sheep, the last of the big spenders.

[Swing Kitten]

:shrug: I probably won't make it to Santa Monica anytime soon!

[Black Sheep]

Swing Dancers,
The latest casualty in the 'Thinning of the Swing Population is the 'Satin Ballroom'. On Margie Kate's Forum it was announced that the 'Satin Ballroom' will not be a Swing Venue next year.
Three years ago they were drawing 2,200 Swing Dancers; last time I attended SB was in February and they had less than one third that number attending. I have alerted the Swing Venue hosts of the diminishing crowds three years ago. I gave my suggestions for improving the attendance, gratis, but they ignored those suggestions. The only Venues that have been holding the crowds is Lance's 'Lindy Groove' on Thursdays and Hilary's 'Camp Hollywood', but that is only once a year.
Black Sheep 'If you want to sell milk, you have to buy the hay' Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.