Feel like never entering a comp again :(

[Ginger]

Hi all
I am a long time viewer of this site and find it a real help in my dancing. I suppose I could do with a bit more help this morning though.

Just came from a competition were we tied for first place. Should be happy I know but the couple that tied with us are no where near our standard. I know this because they go to the same school as us and we see them dance. They have not danced in over 3 months and are finding the basics difficult to manage. We are in beginners. Our teachers were at the comp and could not believe the result. We have put in the work made no mistakes and danced our best. Our teachers are at a loss which really is of no help to us. Things like they are a taller couple (apparently some judges prefer taller couples) the judge wanted to share the wins so as to encourage beginners to stay at it etc
I feel like we lost! This is not the first time that we have being treated badly by a judge in the past we have came second to couples dancing steps outside of the syllabus or were dancing below there grade. We have had judges pick their own couple. I'm the type of person who follows the rules and I expect others to do the same if you are going to enter a competition.
How do you pick yourself up "again" after a bad and maybe unfair result?
My partner has a theory that Beginners don't get the same serious attention as higher grades from judges.

I do love dancing but maybe I am not cut out for competition.

[Angel HI]

Hi all
I am a long time viewer of this site and find it a real help in my dancing.
Just came from a competition were we tied for first place. Our teachers were at the comp and could not believe the result. Things like they are a taller couple (apparently some judges prefer taller couples); the judge wanted to share the wins so as to encourage beginners to stay at it etc
I feel like we lost! This is not the first time that we have being treated badly by a judge in the past we have came second to couples dancing steps outside of the syllabus or were dancing below there grade. We have had judges pick their own couple.

How do you pick yourself up "again" after a bad and maybe unfair result?


Welcome, Ginger, to the DF. Glad you stopped just reading, and posted.

Your question is two-fold. Unfortunately, there is no accounting for the judging at comps. I am one. I, as most others, try to be; professional, impartial to professional/personal feelings, and view comp as a fun and learning experience for the dancers. However, there are times when the issues that you pose come to view. Often, no one really knows how or why a score results in the manner which it does.

The second point merges with the first...you pick yourself up "again". Comp is like life...there are others vying for your seat on the metro or your place in the lane on the way to work; there are others vying for your position on the job; your place in the lunch line; your time with the kids. It's just life.

Perhaps someone took the seat; cut you off; was promoted; bought a better toy. You do not awaken in the a.m. and say, "I love to live, but maybe I am just not cut out for this life". You simply get yourself up "again". If dance is worth doing, then it is worth doing "again".

I know that this was probably not the type of reply that you wished for, but I also hope that you find it to place things in a more proper perspective. I do not mean to belittle the disappointment of not doing better. But, there is much to be said for your knowing, and your teachers' knowing, that you were better, even if the judges didn't.

Bonne chance, cherie.

[SwingWaltz]

Should be happy I know but the couple that tied with us are no where near our standard.

How do you define standard? What did you look for when you made the comparasion youself? Are those the same that the judges look for? And how do you differentiate between good or bad. There are days at the competition I felt that I danced fabulously but what I saw in the video later absolutely disgust me. There are days I thought I did something right, but I have done the wrong.

We have put in the work made no mistakes and danced our best.

Remember it's a competition, just because you danced your best doesn't mean it's the best on the floor. You may not have seen the other couple for 3 month, but it doesn't mean that is going to stop them from dancing their best or even better than they have ever danced before. I remember winning the nationals after 3 weeks of no dancing, and it felt crap although we won. It was definitely not our personal best, but will do to beat the rest of the field.

This is not the first time that we have being treated badly by a judge in the past we have came second to couples dancing steps outside of the syllabus or were dancing below there grade.

You are not marked by one judge, you are marked by a number of judges from different studios etc. Hence no one is treating you badly. There is no rule saying that a lower grade couple should not win at high grade. I see too many of that happening, simply due to the fact the a lot of people prefer to go through the grade even though they are capable to dance at higher level. With regards to dancing out of syllabus, say there are 6 couples on the floor for a final with 1min30 music time, each couple will only be seen for 15 seconds. It is very unlikely that every step will be monitored and more likely than not, one or two steps out of the syllabus will be missed.

How do you pick yourself up "again" after a bad and maybe unfair result?

You don't pick your self up again. You just don't let things like these knock you down. If you feel like you can not take what has happened to you and forget about it, ballroom dancing probably isn't for you.

[elisedance]

Perhaps you are taking this all a bit too seriously? When you start dancing you can become very good in aspects of it but its virtually impossible to become good at all aspects at the same time. I agree in essence with SW - you may well be good at the aspects of ballroom that your teacher finds important but may not be as good at those that the judges value.

A good way to approach this is to watch a lot of other heats. What you will inevitably see is a couple that you think is excellent and another that is boring - and then the judges award first place to the boring one. Thats because syllabus dancing is really not about looking great its about establishing an excellent technique and the judges were either recognizing a technical development in the boring couple or penalizing the more flashy ones because of a disregard for technical accuracy.

If you did not do as well as you expect (hey, we all feel that OK?) then look to improving your own dancing. If your teacher can not see why you did less well - then ask a different professional, perhaps even one of the judges if you think you can approach them.

I have found that thoughts of judging bias are only destructive to my dancing. The best way to deal with post-comp blues is to accept that you were not as good at the other couple on that day and look to improving yourself and your partnership.

[ashybang]

Hi all

Just came from a competition were we tied for first place. Should be happy I know but the couple that tied with us are no where near our standard.
I feel like we lost! This is not the first time that we have being treated badly by a judge
How do you pick yourself up "again" after a bad and maybe unfair result?


I do love dancing but maybe I am not cut out for competition.





Hi Ginger.
I`d just like to say that this does happen in competition.
A similar type of result happened to me on occasion.
Once, some time after i`d finished 15th in the British Championship at Blackpool, i was beaten in competition by a couple who were still dancing Pre Championship.
I was stunned, but laughed it off as i knew it wasn`t a true reflection.
Judges are only human after all and sometimes make errors as we all do.
Just to add to this point.
A week later i was competing and was overmarked by a judge.
In Waltz he placed me first, above two much higher ranked dancers than me, indeed one couple he marked me above had finished in 3rd place at the British Championships.
So, judges marks can sometimes be an unexpected pleasant surprise as well as being sometimes disappointing.
Politics can also enter the equation, but i`m not going there.
Generally though, the couples who dance best come out on top.
Take it on the chin, keep smiling, and i`ve no doubt you`ll get the results you deserve over a period of time.

[fascination]

hi ginger ...I echo angel's sentiments....I would also add that, for my own sanity, I tried to look at my results over the year rather than from comp to comp b/c something bizarre tended to happen at every comp when one dances as much as I did for a while...I really appreciate your frustration...when dancing with a lesser known pro, I would sometimes be beaten by women who couldn't stand up straight but often got a pass for the wrong reason, and now that I dance with a better known pro, I know I walk in with an advantage...not that I intend to skate on it mind you, because I love dance and I have been there...but when those things would happen they would really offend my sense of justice b/c I had worked hard and the differential was sometimes aggregious...but you know, I chose what I chose for reasons that were very important to me ...more important than marks...and I am glad now for those experiences b/c they help me to just go out there and do what I have trained hard to do and to no longer take my results as authentic....not b/c I don't care to mark well, but b/c I know that there are too many things I am not in control of...and I love the dancing and competing...so I focus now I what I do have control of...how much I practice and how much information I can get

[samina]

anyone who competes for some length of time will experience this. just use it as motivation to become indisputably better.

[waltzguy]

This may sound tough, but there may be something about their dancing that gave them an edge, that you're not aware of.

Keep dancing and compete again.

[wooh]

Or keep dancing and don't compete again. Just because you dance, doesn't mean you have to compete (which I know is heresy to say around here!) There's a world of enjoyable things you can do with dancing that don't involve competitions. And if it's hard for you to separate yourself from your comp results, which it seems like one has to do, especially in light of the way ballroom is judged, maybe competing isn't for you. One reason I don't compete is that I am a competitive person, and I know that a string of bad results would take the fun out of it for me. I prefer things like karaoke, where I can just know I'm bad without having a bad score right in front of me, like with bowling.:)
If dancing makes you happy, keep dancing. If dancing doesn't make you happy, don't dance. But make sure the question of "does competing make me happy?" remains a separate question from "does dancing make me happy?" Because they don't HAVE to go hand in hand. (For me they certainly don't.)

[newbie]

You seem to have the illusion that the ones who win are the ones who dance best. That's a mistake, the ones who win are the ones who are ranked #1 by the judges. You have to decide what you want and then act accordingly. Take classes with the best teachers if you want to be the best dancers, take classes with teachers who are also judges if you want to win.

[elisedance]

I find that rather sad, maybe even cynical newbie. As far as dancesport is concerned overall I think the people who dance best also win. Obviously there are local biases and also obviously putting 'compete' and 'art' in the same sentance is always a push since art has to have an element of individual taste. However, at least at the level most of us are dancing at there are standards of quality that can be applied reasonably consistently.

Have I ever complained about the judging? Sure I have - but its hard to blame results on that alone since why did all the judges go the same way? If Couple A takes lessons from Judge A and couple B from Judge B even according to a biased system any benefit couple A get from Judge A is cancelled by Judge B.

I think its just far healthier to accept the results however they fall and then measure your progress over multiple competitions.

[WorksForShoes]

The most you can possibly say is that, for the 15 seconds the judges were looking at your competitors, they found more to like than they did for the 15 seconds they were looking at you. You can't generalize to say that one couple is "better" than the others overall from that 15 seconds, nor can you generalize to say the judges are biased from that 15 seconds. The best thing to do is shake off the annoyance, then get a copy of your judging sheet and see if your coach can help you decipher what might have been missing. For example, in our very first comp, I remember 1s in newcomer smooth waltz from two judges and a 3 from the remaining judge, and our coach explained that the third judge was from a standard background and was likely to be looking at footwork above all else. So we spent the next months working on neatening up the footwork.

[Yuan Ren]

1. Results don't matter; dancing, and only dancing is what matters.

2. When you think another couple is the same as you are, they are better. When you think they are one level below you are, you guys are the same. Only when you are wayyyyyyy above them, you can beat them with no doubt. So keep practicing and beat your bronze opponents with your gold technique and bronze routines. That's the only way to go.

[elisedance]

Right on Yuan! I like your style...

[latingal]

I am a long time viewer of this site and find it a real help in my dancing. I suppose I could do with a bit more help this morning though.

Hi Ginger, glad you decided to post!

We have put in the work made no mistakes and danced our best. Our teachers are at a loss which really is of no help to us.

It is disappointing to think that you danced your best and did not gain the results you were hoping for, yes? But judging is not something we can control, and in my opinion to compete successfully you have to concentrate on what you can control - your own dancing.

Others in the thread have mentioned the same, but what I'd like to make a point of is, being disappointed is a natural reaction, but it shouldn't be so deep that it discourages you from continuing your journey. If it is, too much emphasis is being put upon the results.

Use the situation as a spur to find out what you need to improve and keep moving forward. Remember one success is made from many failures.

And next time, consider setting your own goals for your dancing in the competition other than results. You can control that. Seeing your own progress and improvement each competition will encourage you to continue dancing for the reasons you originally started in it for.

Best of luck to you Ginger!

[barrefly]

Ginger, you should not worry too much over it..if you were truly happy with your dance.

My daughter recently competed and won first place, but she was not happy at all with her dancing and could not figure how she won. She did not even pick up the prize money. (Fortunatly/unfortunatly.......her performance ended up on youtube.).
So from now on...whenever someone beats her out that she thought was not as good....I will show her the clip.

[Standarddancer]

So keep practicing and beat your bronze opponents with your gold technique and bronze routines. That's the only way to go.

I like your attitude. Very well said.

[flashdance]

1. Results don't matter; dancing, and only dancing is what matters.

2. When you think another couple is the same as you are, they are better. When you think they are one level below you are, you guys are the same. Only when you are wayyyyyyy above them, you can beat them with no doubt. So keep practicing and beat your bronze opponents with your gold technique and bronze routines. That's the only way to go.

I'll echo that. Just don't give in and keep believing in yourself - we're all behind you :)

[jennyisdancing]

Hi all
I am a long time viewer of this site and find it a real help in my dancing. I suppose I could do with a bit more help this morning though.

Just came from a competition were we tied for first place. Should be happy I know but the couple that tied with us are no where near our standard. I know this because they go to the same school as us and we see them dance. They have not danced in over 3 months and are finding the basics difficult to manage. We are in beginners. Our teachers were at the comp and could not believe the result. We have put in the work made no mistakes and danced our best. Our teachers are at a loss which really is of no help to us. Things like they are a taller couple (apparently some judges prefer taller couples) the judge wanted to share the wins so as to encourage beginners to stay at it etc
I feel like we lost! This is not the first time that we have being treated badly by a judge in the past we have came second to couples dancing steps outside of the syllabus or were dancing below there grade. We have had judges pick their own couple. I'm the type of person who follows the rules and I expect others to do the same if you are going to enter a competition.
How do you pick yourself up "again" after a bad and maybe unfair result?
My partner has a theory that Beginners don't get the same serious attention as higher grades from judges.

I do love dancing but maybe I am not cut out for competition.


Hi Ginger, I notice many useful and encouraging comments on here, but not many have addressed your concerns about the unfairness of judging. The fact that even your teachers were surprised at your results indicates that it is probably not just your own perception. I have friends who compete and from what they tell me, the judging is not always objective, and yes, people do sometimes win when they are not the best. I don't know what you can do about it, other than to just keep trying as best you can.

This doesn't rule out the possibility of needing to improve your skills, though. Did you get any specific feedback from the judges or can you find out what they didn't like about your dancing? Maybe they will have some constructive advice for you.

[Some guy]

anyone who competes for some length of time will experience this. just use it as motivation to become indisputably better.

Words to live by!!!:cheers:

[JANATHOME]

Did you have the opportunity to see the judges marks by dance? I find that helps. In a recent comp we were disappointed and surprised we did not make the callback... Thought we had danced quite well. After I saw that not one judge gave us a callback in our tango... That was good informaton for us. If all judges do not like a dance that is a pretty good indicator of what you need to work on.... Just a thought.

[dancepro]

Hi all
I am a long time viewer of this site and find it a real help in my dancing. I suppose I could do with a bit more help this morning though.

Just came from a competition were we tied for first place. Should be happy I know but the couple that tied with us are no where near our standard. I know this because they go to the same school as us and we see them dance. They have not danced in over 3 months and are finding the basics difficult to manage. We are in beginners. Our teachers were at the comp and could not believe the result. We have put in the work made no mistakes and danced our best. Our teachers are at a loss which really is of no help to us. Things like they are a taller couple (apparently some judges prefer taller couples) the judge wanted to share the wins so as to encourage beginners to stay at it etc
I feel like we lost! This is not the first time that we have being treated badly by a judge in the past we have came second to couples dancing steps outside of the syllabus or were dancing below there grade. We have had judges pick their own couple. I'm the type of person who follows the rules and I expect others to do the same if you are going to enter a competition.
How do you pick yourself up "again" after a bad and maybe unfair result?
My partner has a theory that Beginners don't get the same serious attention as higher grades from judges.

I do love dancing but maybe I am not cut out for competition.




Hello Ginger,

Welcome to DF. I am also glad you finally decided to post. Will send you a pm with my 2 cents.

Dancepro

[Angel HI]

As far as dancesport is concerned overall I think the people who dance best also win.

However, at least at the level most of us are dancing at there are standards of quality that can be applied reasonably consistently.

Not even remotely close. For professional reasons, I am not going to say much here (yet, most know how I feel about the subject). I still feel that many here seem to be more concerned with beating other dancers than what I perceive to be a larger, or at least, more profound issue.

Ginger, as I said before, and some others have mentioned as well, the thing to do is to.....

1 - forget the other dancers...forget the judges' marks. Neither can improve your dancing or how you feel about Ginger and her dreams.

2 - stay focused on why you dance, and better that. In time, your art/skills will match your desires/dreams, and the rewards will come.

Life is not fair, least of all comp marks. Surround yourself with the best, and grow in your dancing by what you and your teachers find beautiful, and not by how well others do, or what others opine, as one poster said, in a fleeting 15/20 seconds at a comp.

[elisedance]

AH - I did preface that with 'as far as dancesport is concerned' - dancesport being competetive dancing and not 'dancing' per se. In the larger picture you are absolutely right, dance your heart out.

[danceronice]

Ginger: everyone already said the stuff about enjoy the dancing, focus on you, do your best, etc. On the other aspect: welcome to judged sports. You're always going to run into weird/bad/unfair judging in any judged event. Accept it and move on if you want to keep competing, because there's nothing you can do about it. (And yes, this did take a long time for me to learn, but fifteen years of horses made dealing with the dance judging a lot easier when the time came.)

[Josh]

Though it's been mentioned ad nausem before in other threads Ginger, I feel compelled to mention that a technically good couple with a bad physical look can easily be beaten by a technically average couple who is well matched physically. "Well matched physically" usually means:

the man is somewhere around 4-7 inches taller than the lady (maybe 4-10" taller for latin).. (these are approximates mind you).
both dancers are in reasonably good (and similar to one another) physical condition, and are on the slim side more so than the heavy side
These are physical characteristics that give the partnership an immediate advantage when walking onto the floor. If your partnership does not have these, then your dancing will have to be clearly better than that of your competitors to beat them. This is part of competitive dancing at all levels, and while it may seem unfair, it's based on the notion that the overall picture must be as pleasing as possible.

If you are well matched with your partner, consider it a bonus. If you are not, realize that you can win without being well matched, but you will have to work harder.

Either way, consider that while politics do play a role in competitive dancing, there is a panel of judges for a reason, and the skating system is used for scoring for a reason--it's all for the purpose of making it more difficult to cheat. Likely the judges have more experience than you, and respecting that and giving them the benefit of the doubt is usually the wise thing to do.

[elisedance]

Well put Josh - we should have that info on an archive somewhere!

Obviously, some aspects of a partnership can and some can not be changed. You can't loose height (without totally drastic measures - though sometimes I wish I could) but you certainly can loose weight. And you can bear these factors in mind if you are lucky enough to have a choice in partnerships. The hard part is choosing between look and talent - I would almost always go for the latter, after all you need to also enjoy the dancing :)

[BasicsFirst]

the man is somewhere around 4-7 inches taller than the lady (maybe 4-10" taller for latin).. (these are approximates mind you).

I always WONDERED why we do better in Latin... I'm 8 inches taller than my DP. It's ALL in the height (or height difference).

Interesting though, the impact that optimum or non-optimum height difference can have.

[dancepro]

I always WONDERED why we do better in Latin... I'm 8 inches taller than my DP. It's ALL in the height (or height difference).

Interesting though, the impact that optimum or non-optimum height difference can have.

My partner and I had a height difference of 7.5 inches and we did very well. So don't think you can't do well with your hight difference. You do need to use a slightly different hold and some other different techniques, but it is totally possible to do well with a more then normal height difference. The dress design can also been used as a little bit of a cover up. My partner and I use all the tricks so people never thought of us as have a height difference the was more then average.

Dancepro

[SwingWaltz]

Though it's been mentioned ad nausem before in other threads Ginger, I feel compelled to mention that a technically good couple with a bad physical look can easily be beaten by a technically average couple who is well matched physically. "Well matched physically" usually means:

the man is somewhere around 4-7 inches taller than the lady (maybe 4-10" taller for latin).. (these are approximates mind you).
I completely DISAGREE with the above!

Twice, once at our state championship and once at national championship, me and my partner won our event out of 30+ other couples.

We were at the shorter end of the spectrum out of everyone on the floor, if not the shortest in the final.

I am same height as my parnter if not shorter, actually she had to wear reduced heel ballroom shoes (almost flat) to match my height.

It's ricidulous to suggest that being technically good is not comparable to look good!

Look, honestly I think the PO is probably not as great technical wise as he thinks. It should be an encouragement to him, or anyone, to have gotten a first place, equally placed or not. For someone to have an attitude that he has to be better than everyone else, he deserves no sympathy from me.

[latingal]

For someone to have an attitude that he has to be better than everyone else, he deserves no sympathy from me.

SwingWaltz, I didn't read this attitude in the original post, I read more confusion and disillusionment.

I do think it was valid for you to bring up the point that perhaps our perception of our dancing at times can be different than what others see, and that should be considered.

But as for the whole thing on the attitude, I think we should tread very softly when labeling somebody with an attitude.

[samina]

I agree... Swingwaltz, are you saying anybody who wants to be champion by definition then has "an attitude" and "deserves no sympathy"? I'm not even sure what that means, even...

[SwingWaltz]

Well I just felt that for a beginner who has just got a first place to say that he feels like never entering a competition again just because someone whom he thought to be a bad dancer, but in fact MIGHT be a better dancer, tied with him and holding a grudge might be a bit up himself.

Champions or at least the respected ones do realise that there are other people out there dancing too, instead of thinking all the time that they are the greatest and no one else should defeat them.

[elisedance]

I actaully see your point SW - though might not put it so strongly. I for one was much more intense with the first competition and put much more stock in the results than they were really worth - its natural since you have nothing to compare to. You take the results to be a judge of you as a person as much as or more than just your dancing that day. However, after loosing a lot more (and the occasional win ;) ) and watching many more competitions of others one becomes a bit more sage about it all.

Perhaps the attitude may be a bit uppity - but its also what we all go through before establishing some sort of equilibrium.

[fascination]

I think that is a bit harsh...true that sometimes folks overestimate their own skills...but sometimes there is also a glaring inequity and it is hard for a relative newb to take that in stride...IMO, one of the acquired skills in ballroom is to go out there and let the peripheral crap land where it lands.....in fact I have seen seasoned pros struggle with similar issues...shrug...just part of the game...which is why as I said in the ohio thread, regardless of category or level or whatever, my goal is to go out there and land what I have been working on...and whatever the judges or my fellow dancers think is their peorgative...I will know whether or not I accomplished something...after two years of banging my head on the wall, I have decided that that is the sane approach...b/c I am not in control of what level my pro puts me to dance, he has other people to consider, and I am not in control of what other pros choose to do with their students...and I am not in control of who is associated with whom between judges and dancers...I am only in control of how much I practice and how much of what I know I actually execute...I have always wanted to have that mindset, but I finally own it...and it is so freeing

[elisedance]

you put it all very well - wish I had reached your level of nirvana :)

[standardgirl]

Hi all
I am a long time viewer of this site and find it a real help in my dancing. I suppose I could do with a bit more help this morning though.

Just came from a competition were we tied for first place. Should be happy I know but the couple that tied with us are no where near our standard. I know this because they go to the same school as us and we see them dance. They have not danced in over 3 months and are finding the basics difficult to manage. We are in beginners. Our teachers were at the comp and could not believe the result. We have put in the work made no mistakes and danced our best. Our teachers are at a loss which really is of no help to us. Things like they are a taller couple (apparently some judges prefer taller couples) the judge wanted to share the wins so as to encourage beginners to stay at it etc
I feel like we lost! This is not the first time that we have being treated badly by a judge in the past we have came second to couples dancing steps outside of the syllabus or were dancing below there grade. We have had judges pick their own couple. I'm the type of person who follows the rules and I expect others to do the same if you are going to enter a competition.
How do you pick yourself up "again" after a bad and maybe unfair result?
My partner has a theory that Beginners don't get the same serious attention as higher grades from judges.

I do love dancing but maybe I am not cut out for competition.




Lots of good things said already, but lots addressing about your own perception may have not been accurate. While that is for sure a possibility, the fact that your teacher was also shocked about the results gave me some confidence that your perception may not have been too off.

I had this happened to me before. It was a pro/am comp, and my pro was very shocked about the results. Later that day, a very well known judge and former xxx champion stopped by and was chatting with the pro. This person is also a judge but happened to not have judged that particular heat I was in. He said my pro something like, so your girl obviously win, hum? While I did make the final cut, we were far away from winning. What does this say? The results may not have been fair, but I tend to think that judges don't just mark randomly. There may be something in my dancing that's better than the others, but some other things that are not. Judges for that particular heat may have simply used a different priorities than the one my teacher, this other guy and I have in mind. Later, I got a hold of the scrutneering sheets to only find out that marks were all over the place for the various dances. I've got 1st to 6th in the same dance from different judges. Maybe that's what happened to you as well?

Don't worry too much. Just dance, trust your teacher, trust yourself. The day you become so good and perferct, you will be marked with consistency since no one would be able to argue with you. At the lower levels, since not all the important concepts are developed, results sometimes are confusing. ;)

[Purr]

...b/c I am not in control of what level my pro puts me to dance, he has other people to consider

It's still your decision whether you want to dance at that level or not. Of course, if you don't then you won't be dancing at all. It's also your choice whether you want to dance a particular style or not. While you might dance all 4 styles of dance, you might not want to enter all 4 at every competition.

[fascination]

It's still your decision whether you want to dance at that level or not. Of course, if you don't then you won't be dancing at all. It's also your choice whether you want to dance a particular style or not. While you might dance all 4 styles of dance, you might not want to enter all 4 at every competition.well, yes...on some level it is one's choice...but if the alternative is not dancing or some other equally unpleasant one, that really isn't much of a choice...but that is beside the main point which is, that whatever one dances, one should make it their best and leave the rest, including the judgement of of others, out of their mind

[fascination]

you put it all very well - wish I had reached your level of nirvana :)nirvana is preferable to hell...and when one gets sufficiently tired of hell, nirvana comes along

[Josh]

...Twice, once at our state championship and once at national championship, me and my partner won our event out of 30+ other couples.

We were at the shorter end of the spectrum out of everyone on the floor, if not the shortest in the final.

I am same height as my parnter if not shorter, actually she had to wear reduced heel ballroom shoes (almost flat) to match my height.

It's ricidulous to suggest that being technically good is not comparable to look good!

SwingWaltz, please reread my post with the following emphasis:


...a technically good couple with a bad physical look can easily be beaten by a technically average couple who is well matched physically. "Well matched physically" usually means:
...

These are physical characteristics that give the partnership an immediate advantage when walking onto the floor. If your partnership does not have these, then your dancing will have to be clearly better than that of your competitors to beat them.

If you are well matched with your partner, consider it a bonus. If you are not, realize that you can win without being well matched, but you will have to work harder.

I merely noted that being well matched physically is an advantage, not some kind of guarantee. Of course you can cite multiple instances of how a ballroom couple with a 10" height difference, or one of equal height, or one with a partner who was overweight, or whatever, won something. Of course it happens. In fact, it's probably a testament to how good your dancing is that you have done so well with someone of equal height, and ditto that for dancepro as she mentioned.

You can find exceptions, but most often those who are well matched win. Also, I was in no way suggesting that the OP was technically great and did not have a good look. I'm merely pointing out the possibility that if the OP was not well matched with a partner, this could make a difference and should have a direct influence on how well they prepared and steps they took to disguise any imbalance. You're probably right that the dancing needs to be more solid, and that was exactly my point too.

[elisedance]

nirvana is preferable to hell...and when one gets sufficiently tired of hell, nirvana comes along

wow - you could use that one for your sig. Indeed, we could all use it for our lives.

Me, I'm still enjoying hell :rolleyes:

[fascination]

if i used it it would seem like I had a target ...and I have given up on anger...part of the exit from hell strategy...

[SwingWaltz]

SwingWaltz, please reread my post with the following emphasis:




I merely noted that being well matched physically is an advantage, not some kind of guarantee. Of course you can cite multiple instances of how a ballroom couple with a 10" height difference, or one of equal height, or one with a partner who was overweight, or whatever, won something. Of course it happens. In fact, it's probably a testament to how good your dancing is that you have done so well with someone of equal height, and ditto that for dancepro as she mentioned.

You can find exceptions, but most often those who are well matched win. Also, I was in no way suggesting that the OP was technically great and did not have a good look. I'm merely pointing out the possibility that if the OP was not well matched with a partner, this could make a difference and should have a direct influence on how well they prepared and steps they took to disguise any imbalance. You're probably right that the dancing needs to be more solid, and that was exactly my point too.

My apologies!

[anp73ga31]

To me, I dont worry about being first, I just dont want to be last. So long as someone has done worse than me, I'm happy. Weird, I know, but its my convaluted way of looking at things. This way, if I were to be in the top three, I'd be thrilled (rather than disappointed if I expected to come in first). My first comp I got 1st out of 3 couples in the individual dances, but in the scholarship round I got 4th (out of 7). I was just as happy with my 4th place as my 1st, because to me being 4th meant that I was not 5th, 6th, or 7th! And of course, the money was a plus. :D

On a side note, some of the other girls who dance with my pro had scholarship rounds that had semis. In that case, I would have been thrilled to make the semi, but even if not, as long as I was not last, I would be happy. If I WERE last, I'd have a serious talk with my pro about what was going on (or enter in a lower level like some other folks do so that I could place higher).

[samina]

Well I just felt that for a beginner who has just got a first place to say that he feels like never entering a competition again just because someone whom he thought to be a bad dancer, but in fact MIGHT be a better dancer, tied with him and holding a grudge might be a bit up himself. [/quote*

Gotcha...see your point.

[Champions or at least the respected ones do realise that there are other people out there dancing too, instead of thinking all the time that they are the greatest and no one else should defeat them.
Well-said. I love what my own pro told me recently when I failed to win a particular event I normally place well in..."There is no shame in being beaten by good dancers."

As for questionable or unwanted placements, I don't feel any attitude is a truly productive other than to aim to get indesputably better. I think it's helpful to get feedback around what weaknesses showed up that resulted in the perceived anomaly, but then I'd just take responsibility for my imperfections and move on. Otherwise I'd feel like a whiner, and utterly unprofessional, regardless of the level i'm dancing at.

[jerseydancer]

Hi all
I am a long time viewer of this site and find it a real help in my dancing. I suppose I could do with a bit more help this morning though.

Just came from a competition were we tied for first place. Should be happy I know but the couple that tied with us are no where near our standard. I know this because they go to the same school as us and we see them dance. They have not danced in over 3 months and are finding the basics difficult to manage. We are in beginners. Our teachers were at the comp and could not believe the result. We have put in the work made no mistakes and danced our best. Our teachers are at a loss which really is of no help to us. Things like they are a taller couple (apparently some judges prefer taller couples) the judge wanted to share the wins so as to encourage beginners to stay at it etc
I feel like we lost! This is not the first time that we have being treated badly by a judge in the past we have came second to couples dancing steps outside of the syllabus or were dancing below there grade. We have had judges pick their own couple. I'm the type of person who follows the rules and I expect others to do the same if you are going to enter a competition.
How do you pick yourself up "again" after a bad and maybe unfair result?
My partner has a theory that Beginners don't get the same serious attention as higher grades from judges.

I do love dancing but maybe I am not cut out for competition.




Do not give up, it is only your first competition. If you want to understand better why are you loosing to other couples, one of the things that you can do is to ask someone to videotape the competition, and not only you but all other couples on the floor as well. It may give you very good idea about how you look in comparison to other couples. We have done that and realized that sometimes a simple thing like smiling can give you a little advantage and make you look more relaxed and lighter than other couple. Another time we looked on the video and realized that we lost the timing for just a moment during the foxtrot, we got back on the track, but few judges looked at us at that moment and gave us different scores, than the others. Our marks were 1 or 5. And as everyone said already keep dancing and practice, practice, practice

[biggestbox]

I think we all have moments of depression; moments where we want to give up b/c all the hard work we put in is just not paying dividends. Maybe you’re a beginner who can't make finals. Make you are a champion who keeps getting second no matter how hard you try. Maybe you can't jump as high or spin as fast as the next guy. It is how you treat those emotions that makes you a champion, a coward, or an average joe. We all feel the same thing, but how we act determines how we are different.

[latingal]

nicely said biggestbox.

[Izzy20]

I think we all have moments of depression; moments where we want to give up b/c all the hard work we put in is just not paying dividends. Maybe you’re a beginner who can't make finals. Make you are a champion who keeps getting second no matter how hard you try. Maybe you can't jump as high or spin as fast as the next guy. It is how you treat those emotions that makes you a champion, a coward, or an average joe. We all feel the same thing, but how we act determines how we are different.


wow. i've been following this thread and I really needed to hear that. Thank you very much.

[samina]

I think we all have moments of depression; moments where we want to give up b/c all the hard work we put in is just not paying dividends. Maybe you’re a beginner who can't make finals. Make you are a champion who keeps getting second no matter how hard you try. Maybe you can't jump as high or spin as fast as the next guy. It is how you treat those emotions that makes you a champion, a coward, or an average joe. We all feel the same thing, but how we act determines how we are different.
beautiful, BB.

[LucyDiamond]

beautiful, BB.
ditto

[2totango]

Thank you, biggestbox. That is exactly what I needed to hear today.

[dancepro]

I think we all have moments of depression; moments where we want to give up b/c all the hard work we put in is just not paying dividends. Maybe you’re a beginner who can't make finals. Make you are a champion who keeps getting second no matter how hard you try. Maybe you can't jump as high or spin as fast as the next guy. It is how you treat those emotions that makes you a champion, a coward, or an average joe. We all feel the same thing, but how we act determines how we are different.

Very well put. It is all about attitude. I totally agree:)

Dancepro

[SPratt74]

To me, I dont worry about being first, I just dont want to be last. So long as someone has done worse than me, I'm happy.

That was cute I must say lol!

As far as the scores go, well... you can't control what's in the stars. People win that aren't supposed to etc. But what I want to know is... is that how you feel about the person, or was their dancing not up to par? I mean maybe they are better for whatever reason, and maybe one just chooses not to see it due to personal reasons? Or maybe they just won by a point, and you won't ever know it? But I'd say whatever the reason, use the frustration to make yourself a better dancer than to give up completely. Look at the videotape, see how you can improve with your dancing, and maybe focus on gaining more points instead of winning the next time around. I don't know, but to me if I lost completely or just barely, well... I can only go up from there lol!

[and123]

Have you competed yet?

[dancepro]

When I first started competing I was not doing well at all. Actually we/I was always third from the bottom, I could really only move up. If there was 40 couples in my division (national competitions) we/I were 38th, if there was 30 couples we/I were 29th. A few times we danced competitions that only had about 15 couples and we/I were of cause lucky 13th. This went on for about 1 1/2 year. We finally decided to something about it and we never looked back. In the next 1 1/2 we worked very hard and made it to the finals of our national competitions. The first time we went to Blackpool we only danced the first qualifying round in open amateur standard. The last time we/I danced there as an amateur in we made the top 48 in standard. Then we stopped dancing together and I turned professional. Well, the rest is history as they say.

My point is that things will change when you make the decision that you want to change. There are plenty of people willing to help you on the way. All you have to do is ask for help. The DF is a perfect place to ask question and get help. So make the decision to change and follow through.

Dancepro

[SPratt74]

When I first started competing I was not doing well at all. Actually we/I was always third from the bottom, I could really only move up. If there was 40 couples in my division (national competitions) we/I were 38th, if there was 30 couples we/I were 29th. A few times we danced competitions that only had about 15 couples and we/I were of cause lucky 13th. This went on for about 1 1/2 year. We finally decided to something about it and we never looked back. In the next 1 1/2 we worked very hard and made it to the finals of our national competitions. The first time we went to Blackpool we only danced the first qualifying round in open amateur standard. The last time we/I danced there as an amateur in we made the top 48 in standard. Then we stopped dancing together and I turned professional. Well, the rest is history as they say.

My point is that things will change when you make the decision that you want to change. There are plenty of people willing to help you on the way. All you have to do is ask for help. The DF is a perfect place to ask question and get help. So make the decision to change and follow through.

Dancepro

I agree with you completely!

To answer the other question, I haven't competed in dance yet. Getting ready to! But I'm not going to look at it negatively though. I have had been through other competitions. I was a serious tennis player when I was younger (was thinking about joining the tennis pro team we have here actually, may still try to do so if I ever get back onto that kind of shape again lol). I was going to go to state in high school even (didn't go, because I ended up staying a week in the hospital instead). But I didn't start out well though. I did however take some lessons with some top pros (one pro was known for competing against Andre Agassi, because that's how serious I was of a tennis player), and competed against other playes in other cities every summer while being on a National Junior Tennis league. It was tough work, but a great experience overall, and one experience that I will never forget!

I was also a top musician in high school, which got me into college. I used to go and compete at different cities. Didn't do well at first. However, I ended up getting first at a major competition, and stunned a lot of people! I also had beat out the seniors when it came to chair placement lol. That was a really cool feeling lol!

So, even though I haven't competed in dance, I know all about competitions and what to expect. I'm very competitive. I may not start out well, but I'm determined to make it to the top, and have done so in the past! But you should stay in it if you like it. You can't give up. We all had to start somewhere. And yes, everything has it's own politics etc., but you can't let that get to you. My thing has always been to stay out of the politics or whatever else... even when it comes to work. Don't get involved if you can help it. Just do what you can to learn and go from there. You will have bad days (like when I got sick and didn't get to go to state), but you can't let that get to you is all. Not if you want to compete.

[Josh]

So, even though I haven't competed in dance, I know all about competitions and what to expect.

I used to compete in music stuff as a kid, and later singles tennis in high school. But nothing prepared me for competitive dancing :-) I wish you much success, and I'm sure you'll do well!

[SPratt74]

I used to compete in music stuff as a kid, and later singles tennis in high school. But nothing prepared me for competitive dancing :-) I wish you much success, and I'm sure you'll do well!

Oh that is so cool! Yeah, I played singles as well as doubles. My partner and I were supposed to go to state. Well, I got sick, and she got to go lol. Kind of like what's going on with dance. Everytime, we are headed to a comp., something comes up to where I can't go! Grrr lol.

But yeah, dancing is a bit tougher technically lol. I was just thinking about this last night actually! In tennis, I developed a mean backhand, which would prevent me from running around a whole lot lol. I was in awesome shape though. I just didn't want to get sweaty lol!

In dance, you have so many rules etc., and if you mess up... you really mess up! But that's also why you shouldn't be so hard on yourself, because dance is a tough sport. However, a sport is a sport no matter how tough you think it is. You can learn all kinds of things, but only if you stay in to learn them. I'd just hate to see someone give up on something if they do enjoy it just because of a bad experience.

And thanks! I appreciate the thought!

[fascination]

it isn't just the physical challenge...it is also that in tennis the winner is an objective fact...but at any rate....you will find out soon enough

[elisedance]

I just looked through the entire thread and there was no reply or comment from Ginger after the first post - just think, 60 replies, discussions and wonderful suggestions but not an additional peep from the original poster!

Ginger?? If you have been following this I hope we did not scare you off or anything. I'm sure a lot of us would love to have your input either on the replies or on the process.

ee

[JANATHOME]

I think there are so many replies because it strikes a familiar chord with a lot of us; probably because now and then it is good to get your feelings out in the open and talk about with others who understand. How many times have I felt like Ginger after a comp, the fustration, once in a while anger, sometimes questioning if we should continue on, if we, in fact have it in us, what it takes to be a good dancer....

Sure, in the end you carry on, get past whatever it was that made you so fustrated to begin with because you enjoy it too much to stop.... but this thread has at a minimum brough on great encouragement, logical words of advise not just for the OP but for all of us.

[Stagekat]

Sure, in the end you carry on, get past whatever it was that made you so fustrated to begin with because you enjoy it too much to stop.... but this thread has at a minimum brough on great encouragement, logical words of advise not just for the OP but for all of us.

This thread has been good for comp and social dancers alike. I think the OP is likely just shy. :)

[SPratt74]

it isn't just the physical challenge...it is also that in tennis the winner is an objective fact...but at any rate....you will find out soon enough

Yeah I understand. I've read the threads etc. even if I haven't replied to them. I know what you all are talking about. But either way, yeah I'll find out, but I'm not going to get disappointed though. Things happen beyond your control sometimes. But I'm excited either way, can't wait! Hey if anything, I'll finally get to wear my dresses lol!;)

[and123]

Heh, sounds kinda like Kim Kardashian :p

[wooh]

I think this thread is a big reason why, any time I've pondered going and doing a competition, I go and decide that I'd soooo rather not. I can in my head know how to feel about the results, but I'd still be negative about them. I know myself too well, and I'd find a way to be negative about them. I could win Blackpool, and I'd find a way to be negative about it.
I started thinking today. When Max and Yulia still danced together, and would always come in second to Andre and Elena, how frustrating that would be to me. Like if I was Yulia, I wouldn't be happy with the fact that I could dance like Yulia, I'd be annoyed all the time that I always came in second.
I had this fabulous run in middle and high school where it seemed I was always the "alternate" or "runner-up" to things. If 3 would go, I'd be 4. If 2 would go, I'd be 3. End of my junior year in high school, I checked my class ranking. At graduation, it was the top 20 that got honors. I was #21. I worked my butt off because I was not going to be alternate again. (Got myself up to #19, woot!) But I just remember being so frustrated all the time. It didn't matter that I was the top bassoonist in my band, I was the alternate to All-State, TWICE! And all I could focus on was that. It didn't matter in middle school that every week in track and field season I could shot put further than the week before, because only 3 went to the competition, and I was always the 4th on the team.
And now, I hate bowling. Sure I'm better each time I go, but I still always lose to my super jock husband, and my mom, and dad and all my sisters, and even my disabled sister can bowl better than I can. Basically, I'm too competitive and perfectionistic to enjoy competing at anything unless I have winning in the bag. And even then, I'll think my scores were too low or whatever. I can know what kind of attitude I *should* have about it, but I know myself well enough to know that I just won't have that attitude. Dancing is where I can escape that. Just try to do better for the sake of being better. It's killed my need to be perfect, because I'm too old and out of shape to ever achieve "perfect" even if it was achievable. So instead of the sport of it, I can participate in the art of it.:)
Unfortunately, I think competition has taken over ballroom to the point that people think that it's really about competing or nothing. And if they don't enjoy aspects of competing, the only alternatives are to either learn to deal or quit dancing. There are other possibilities though.:)

[dancepro]

Unfortunately, I think competition has taken over ballroom to the point that people think that it's really about competing or nothing. And if they don't enjoy aspects of competing, the only alternatives are to either learn to deal or quit dancing. There are other possibilities though.:)

I didn't really like competing, but it was what was expected of me when dancing in the circles I was in. I loved, and still love learning. I loved to practice and would love to do it again more often. My ex-partner and I only see each other once in a while, but when we do get a change to dance together it great fun and I really miss practicing.

It doesn't matter in what format you enjoy dancing. Do it the way that works for you. My parents dance all over Europe and have never competed. They enjoy dancing together and they enjoy traveling. This weekend they are in Prag dancing. It a great way for them to both dance and travel at the same time. Enjoy your dancing.

Dancepro

[Angel HI]

Unfortunately, I think competition has taken over ballroom to the point that people think that it's really about competing or nothing. And if they don't enjoy aspects of competing, the only alternatives are to either learn to deal or quit dancing. There are other possibilities though.

This is true in many ways, and, indeed, unfortunate. I have nothing against competitive dancing; realize its importance to the business, and the enjoyment that many, including myself, gain from it. But, I remember when the main focus of studios was to teach dance, and have watched as the main focus shifted from the little old ladies (figuratively) to the pros, and their next comp. The student almost became a bi-product.

I'm glad to see the returning trend of teaching dance to help others improve and enjoy their lives (comp still being a part of that, but more as the interest of the dancer, and not as the main focus of the business).

[SwingWaltz]

Life is unfair, deal with it!

[elisedance]

Unfortunately, I think competition has taken over ballroom to the point that people think that it's really about competing or nothing. And if they don't enjoy aspects of competing, the only alternatives are to either learn to deal or quit dancing. There are other possibilities though.:)

I really don't agree - if it wasn't for competition ballroom dancing just wouldn't be as popular and it wouldn't be done at such a high level. Thats true for all sports. And I stress sport because dancing is a sport an art and a passtime - and perhaps there is some truth to the idea that here we forget the last, don't focus enough on the second and obsess with the first.

Personally, I love to compete but I also see competition as a way to improve my dancing. And by aiming to compete I get to enjoy a lot of social dancing with my partner - and there I can just let go and treat dance as a passtime and, in my small way, an art form.

For me competition is the opposite to you wooh. Its the means whereby dance becomes available to me without it I would not have such a wonderful dance partner, such amazing coaching sessions and such a glorious additional goal in my life.

[SPratt74]

Heh, sounds kinda like Kim Kardashian :p

You know I felt like I could relate to her for some reason lol.

[fascination]

wooh...I really appreciate your candid post...and I struggled with the same issues for a long time and for me rather than saying competition must not be my thing, I made my new goal a personal one and it was to overcome that particular disposition...to be able to be objectively proud of my dancing if I danced well regardless of where it left me....I placed second in a very important event to me no long ago, and I was so proud of it not only because of how hard I worked to improve my skills but becasue I could be happy placing second...they were both huge accomplishments for me

[QPO]

Its a tough one. competing not competing. Life has never been fair and judging at comps wont be either, having only done one it not a good judgment especially since you did well :-) , if you have been dancing years and had no success I can appreciate getting jaded.

I have friends that never could win in their own state as there were political overtones and. Your love of dancing will keep you motivated to try I am sure.

[wooh]

I really don't agree - if it wasn't for competition ballroom dancing just wouldn't be as popular and it wouldn't be done at such a high level.

I would have to totally disagree, ie, ballet is done at a pretty darn high level, and when's the last time you saw a ballet competition? People can do things at a high level just because they want to get better and improve as artists.

[danceronice]

I would have to totally disagree, ie, ballet is done at a pretty darn high level, and when's the last time you saw a ballet competition? People can do things at a high level just because they want to get better and improve as artists.

www.nyibc.org (http://www.nyibc.org)
http://www.usaibc.com/index.html
http://www.prixdelausanne.org/e/prize/index.php
And of course
http://www.varna-ibc.org/

If you want to be a top-level dancer with a realistic shot at making principal in one of the major companies, you need to be out there doing these competitions from an early age. Varna in particular can instantly make a career.

[elisedance]

I would have to totally disagree, ie, ballet is done at a pretty darn high level, and when's the last time you saw a ballet competition? People can do things at a high level just because they want to get better and improve as artists.

True enough for ballet - but would that work for ballroom? People pay to see ballet performances in large auditoria - I suppose that has been done for ballroom but its very rare so how would you generate the income to sustain it - at Mirko and Alessia's level? As I see it, the only reason we have top level ballroom is because of competitions such as Blackpool...

[waltzguy]

As I see it, the only reason we have top level ballroom is because of competitions such as Blackpool...

Well, and TV shows like DWTS, etc. help promote it too.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I would have to totally disagree, ie, ballet is done at a pretty darn high level, and when's the last time you saw a ballet competition? People can do things at a high level just because they want to get better and improve as artists.

I think most people perceive high-level ballet as a long performance to watch (i.e. Nutcraker). It's not something that can even be done outside of a theatrical performance. Ever seen a ballet social? :)

[latingal]

Ever seen a ballet social? :)

Now THAT would be amusing....

[Chris Stratton]

I think most people perceive high-level ballet as a long performance to watch (i.e. Nutcraker). It's not something that can even be done outside of a theatrical performance. Ever seen a ballet social? :)

Not exactly ballet perhaps, but I do believe that the dance-as-art community (which is heavily ballet in training/origin) does have various joint-improvisation forms and sessions.

[Chris Stratton]

I think competition has taken over ballroom to the point that people think that it's really about competing or nothing. And if they don't enjoy aspects of competing, the only alternatives are to either learn to deal or quit dancing. There are other possibilities though.:)

Competition has both collectively and individually made us aware of a range of possibilites, that simply can't be achieved without a persistent and targeted learning program. For many, competition ends up being the organizing goal of that program. Sure, you can dance without such effort, and many enjoy it - but once you become aware of the possiblity of greater depth in dancing, it's hard to personally settle for less.

And that brings up the second part; it's very hard to find a venue and social circle where you can put all of yourself into dancing, other than a competition. They do exist, and are unspeakably valuable finds... but can be harder to locate than a competition!

[Angel HI]

As I see it, the only reason we have top level ballroom is because of competitions such as Blackpool...

There are several BR performance companies (geared toward nothing but staged musicals...a BR ballet, if you will); American Ballroom Theatre and Balladagio, among others here in the US; TangoKinesis - BsAs, and Espirit du Corps in France. I'm certain tehre are more.

[elisedance]

I know they exist but do you think that if there were no competitions such companies could keep ballroom dancing alive? TV is a better candidate but it is whimsical - right now Ballroom is still hot but we can all remember when it was not and only appeared during fundraising. Its surely just a matter of time before it goes out of fashion again. The fact is that for any particular interest, if participants don't keep it going it will fall out of use.