tango and maths? Loving/addicted to tango :) Tips for beginner...

[LovingIt28]

Hi,

Have been dancing a little while in other styles and now have about 4 months of tango under my belt. My goodness. My first impression was that I was ABSOLUTELY overwhelmed with the possibilities/variables/intricacy and complexity.

It ABSOLUTELY reminds me of maths and exponential growth sequences.

Anyone else notice that?


Also, it reminds me of those choose your own adventure books lol.

So what tips can you give me in order to be the best tango dancer possible.

I know I must be patient but it will be a constant struggle. I do have a lot of respect for the dance and dancers though so not in a rush. Went to my first social night Friday which was fun. Just practiced my walks mainly :)

I am a 28 yr old male.

I probably need most help on being grounded and connecting with my partner

[Angel HI]

Welcome to AT. Fair warning: It's Addicting!

What will make you better? Read through either of the posts here on the DF re basics, fundamentals, etc. There are several here who can help you become the best that you wish to be.

Other than going into a redundantly loooonnnggg list......

Practice...as much as possible. Good dancing.

[newbie]

My first impression was that I was ABSOLUTELY overwhelmed with the possibilities/variables/intricacy and complexity.

It ABSOLUTELY reminds me of maths and exponential growth sequences.


The combinations aren't that numerous. Yes you can consider the possible steps for the man, forward, backward, with one foot or the other, and the possible directions, LOD, back to LOD, facing the wall, back to the wall, and same for the woman, and you combine all that and it makes a lot of possibilities.
But not all of of them make sense tango-wise. If you move backwards and the woman moves to the side, most of the possibilities will make you move away and a few ones will work, back sacada (also tomada) by the man, one alteration too.

[Heather2007]

Hi,
It ABSOLUTELY reminds me of maths and exponential growth sequences.

Anyone else notice that?

It reminded me of two things: As a Follower it reminded me of a dance. As a leader it reminded me of a much bigger dance. C'est tout! ;-)

As for you: My tip is to let it do the same. And yes, I am able to tell apart the Academics from the Artists. In the way they lead me in the dance. And so. Let the scientists work out the science. Just dance? Yep! Just dance :-)

[Heather2007]

I know I must be patient but it will be a constant struggle. :)

gave a talk the other week on "how we consciously plan ahead the negatives". See the highlighted bold above. Wish I'd got hold of this before - would've used it as an example in my powerful Powerpoint display. Ha, ha, ha. Come in LI28: You have a restar. Repeat: ...this is going to be so easy. There. You see? Easy ;-)

[bordertangoman]

gave a talk the other week on "how we consciously plan ahead the negatives". See the highlighted bold above. Wish I'd got hold of this before - would've used it as an example in my powerful Powerpoint display. Ha, ha, ha. Come in LI28: You have a restar. Repeat: ...this is going to be so easy. There. You see? Easy ;-)

Aha! to which I would add learning tango is not an intellectual exercise: better to let your body do the learning and let your brain take a rest; its simply a case of letting as much movement become automated responses ( there is proper term for this but it escapes me)
and receiving the stimuli from the music and your partner.

[kieronneedscake]

It ABSOLUTELY reminds me of maths and exponential growth sequences.


Yes there are a lot of possibilities, and the order in which you assemble them gives you nearly infinite variety by the end of 3 minutes. However, this is not the variability to be thinking about.

The exciting variation comes from personalities interacting. Focus on the now for both people, and at most the next 3 steps or so. In 4 steps time, the world will be a different place, so deal with that when you come to it. Now you have a tractable problem based around making 1-3 partnered steps excellent.

[newbie]

it will be a constant struggle.

Not really because there is not much that you can control. If there is no good teacher in your area, if there is no partner to practise with between the classes, if the classes are for couples only, if the gender imbalance is the wrong way, etc etc then it will be a constant frustration but not a constant struggle.

[bordertangoman]

Yes there are a lot of possibilities, and the order in which you assemble them gives you nearly infinite variety by the end of 3 minutes. However, this is not the variability to be thinking about.

The exciting variation comes from personalities interacting. Focus on the now for both people, and at most the next 3 steps or so. In 4 steps time, the world will be a different place, so deal with that when you come to it. Now you have a tractable problem based around making 1-3 partnered steps excellent.

Guy Marrec advised that you should only be thinking about the step you are doing..... the others can wait.

[kieronneedscake]

Guy Marrec advised that you should only be thinking about the step you are doing..... the others can wait.

Sound advice, but no help if you're trying to nail a musical flourish! I've always got to be one step ahead or all my musicality goes down the toilet.

[bordertangoman]

Sound advice, but no help if you're trying to nail a musical flourish! I've always got to be one step ahead or all my musicality goes down the toilet.

Ah yes Fibonacci the great Tango maestro
1
121
12321

etc

[dchester]

Hi,

Have been dancing a little while in other styles and now have about 4 months of tango under my belt. My goodness. My first impression was that I was ABSOLUTELY overwhelmed with the possibilities/variables/intricacy and complexity.

It ABSOLUTELY reminds me of maths and exponential growth sequences.

Anyone else notice that? I often talk to my wife about there being an analytic aspect to tango, along with the artistic (visual) aspect and the emotional (connection) aspect of it. I tend to think of the analytical side, more in geometrical terms rather than exponential growth, but one does tend to lead to the other.

My one piece of advice is to try to understand (but not necessarily do) the follower's part as much as your own. To lead clearly, you have to understand what it is that you want her to do (among other things). If you learn a pattern but only know your steps, you won't be able to lead her steps effectively.

[Gssh]

I would probably prefer model tango by using a markov chain, this would allow to keep all the complexity in place, while making for a much more concise description
h t t p : / / en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_Markov_model




What?

:)

Gssh

[Steve Pastor]

In mathematics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics), a Markov chain, named after Andrey Markov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrey_Markov), is a stochastic process (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_process) with the Markov property (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markov_property). Having the Markov property means that, given the present state, future states are independent of the past states.

This may be true for tango...except that, as with music, the current state is NOT independent of past states. If they WERE, then where would be no phrases, no recurring patterns of notes and durations, etc.
Therefore, dance that is a reflection of the music would also NOT be independent of past states.
Of course, most people don't really reflect the music, so...
But then, they aren't very good dancers.

No?

[Gssh]

Well, as a tango dancer i would claim that i can walk musically, which is not only a markov process, but a stationary markoff process:

State A: Step forward with left foot
State B: Step forward with right foot

Transition matrix:
0

[Gssh]

Sorry, computer hiccup - better version

Well, as a tango dancer i would claim that i can walk musically, which certainly has the markov property:

State A: Step forward with left foot
State B: Step forward with right foot

Transition matrix:
a b
a 0 1
b 1 0

[LovingIt28]

wow - what great enlightened responses. Learnt and felt so much.

thanks!!!

[Gssh]

I apologize - i was not trying to derail your thread, and judging by the last response you feel quite hurt. Again, apologies.

OTOH, i am a mathematician, and honestly, my first reaction to the OP was "hmm, if i wanted to create a mathematical model of tango i probably would not choose an exponential series (which does not have markov properties, but is instead possibel to reconstruct every single element of the complete series from any point on it), but i would try to emphasize that the beauty of tango lies (imho) in its marcov properties, where every step can follow any other step". Again, this might have fallen a bit flat.

So, let me try this again without referring to mathematical concepts:

The beauty of tango is for me not the fact that there so many different possible moves, and that a good dancer is able to make up infinitively many sequences and figures.
It is actually in the contrary that tango has only a few, very basic prinicples that can be combined limitlessly. The most enlightening moments for me have been when i looked at a figure that i knew, and realized that it was just the same old basic elements combined in a new way. Like when i really understood that a ocho is only step-pivot-step, and a moulinette is ocho-sidestep-ocho-sidestep, and this means that a ocho can be tranformed into a moulinette, and that all the moves that i knew that started with an ocho could be started from an moulinette and so on.
Becoming aware of the limitless freedom i have because i can go from any step to any other step, and that even fancy moves follow this basic logic deep down - the basic saccada is just a followers sidestep, and a leaders front step, and some dissociation to make it possible that i am moving in a different direction than her. This means that i can do a side step, or a back step instead, or use my right leg or my left leg, or she could step to the front, or to the back, and either to my right or to my left. So, there are not infinite possibilities, but just 5 or so, and the genius of tango is that it looks like it infintely complex.

Gssh

[LovingIt28]

Thanks Gssh, was not upset just enlightened lol.

I appreciated the posters brining out some important points.

By saying Tango is maths I was merely making conversation. If Tango WAS maths it would be called Maths not tango :)

However, the topic raises for me at least, interesting discussion as you have given below.

For instance. All a computer can do is at a basic form add 0 and 1. Yet look at the possibilities. As for your post, the basics combine to create a myriad of possibilities and potential.

Boundless, only by our imagination I imagine as the same move can be done with a variety of emotion/feeling etc etc multiplied by the same with your partner.

Very interesting situation :)

[Heather2007]

For instance. All a computer can do is at a basic form add 0 and 1. Yet look at the possibilities.:)

Indeed! All the teacher can do is show you the basics, it is then up to you to create the possibilities.;)

[Steve Pastor]

Gssh:
How good are you at constructing models?
I'd like to have one for West Coast Swing to see what the likelihood is of any number of couples being in the walk walk or end of the slot at the same time.
It would be fun, too, I think, to have a Random Tango Model which could then set to music.
formuli in Excel?? anyother ideas?

[Gssh]

Warning! This is a probably stupid detour!

by request i present: The random milonga model - drumroll!


in r code (w w w .r-project.org (http://www.r-project.org)):



P <- matrix( c(
0, .6 ,0 , .2, 0, .2,
.2, 0 ,.6 , 0, .2, 0,
0, .2 ,0, .6, 0, .2,
.2, 0 ,.2 , 0, .6, 0,
0, .2 ,0, .2, 0, 0.6,
.6, 0 ,.2, 0, 0.2 ,0), 6,6, byrow=TRUE)
simMilonga <- function( P, size=6) { n <- NROW(P)
result <- numeric(size)
result[1] <- sample(1:n,1,prob=P[6,])
result[size]<- 6
for (i in 2:(size-1)) {
result <- sample(1:n, 1, prob=P[ result[i-1], ])
}
result
}
[I]figure <- simMilonga(P)
figure



This is a tango simulator in that generates random sequences based on the milonga basic (1: backstep with the right foot, 2: sidestep to the left, 3: frontstep with the right foot, 4: frontstep with the left foot, 5: sidestep to the right, 6: collect left foot to the right and shift weight - i am too lazy to use a larger set of basic steps). The underlying assumption is that the dancer will follow the classic milonga basic most of the time (60%) and only deviate some times. This code generates sequences of "size" length (here 6). The figure will end with 6, and start with a step one can do from the 6, i.e. collected with weight on their left foot, which means that they can be chained infinitivly.

Testruns resulted in:

1) 1 2 1 4 5 6

back, side, rockstep back, side, collect

2) 3 4 5 6 1 6

walk forward, sidestep, collect, back, collect

3) 1 2 3 6 5 6

back, side, front, collect, shuffle to the right


4) 1 4 5 4 5 6

rockstep back, sidestep to the right, frontstep, sidestep, collect

Not too bad - i like 2) and 3) and the other ones are danceable too. Might make a nice game to warm up - pick a random sequence from the hat, and dance it.

[LovingIt28]

Warning! This is a probably stupid detour!

by request i present: The random milonga model - drumroll!


in r code (w w w .r-project.org (http://www.r-project.org)):



P <- matrix( c(
0, .6 ,0 , .2, 0, .2,
.2, 0 ,.6 , 0, .2, 0,
0, .2 ,0, .6, 0, .2,
.2, 0 ,.2 , 0, .6, 0,
0, .2 ,0, .2, 0, 0.6,
.6, 0 ,.2, 0, 0.2 ,0), 6,6, byrow=TRUE)
simMilonga <- function( P, size=6) { n <- NROW(P)
result <- numeric(size)
result[1] <- sample(1:n,1,prob=P[6,])
result[size]<- 6
for (i in 2:(size-1)) {
result <- sample(1:n, 1, prob=P[ result, ])
}
result
}
[I]figure <- simMilonga(P)
[I]figure



This is a tango simulator in that generates random sequences based on the milonga basic (1: backstep with the right foot, 2: sidestep to the left, 3: frontstep with the right foot, 4: frontstep with the left foot, 5: sidestep to the right, 6: collect left foot to the right and shift weight - i am too lazy to use a larger set of basic steps). The underlying assumption is that the dancer will follow the classic milonga basic most of the time (60%) and only deviate some times. This code generates sequences of "size" length (here 6). The figure will end with 6, and start with a step one can do from the 6, i.e. collected with weight on their left foot, which means that they can be chained infinitivly.

Testruns resulted in:

1) 1 2 1 4 5 6

back, side, rockstep back, side, collect

2) 3 4 5 6 1 6

walk forward, sidestep, collect, back, collect

3) 1 2 3 6 5 6

back, side, front, collect, shuffle to the right


4) 1 4 5 4 5 6

rockstep back, sidestep to the right, frontstep, sidestep, collect

Not too bad - i like 2) and 3) and the other ones are danceable too. Might make a nice game to warm up - pick a random sequence from the hat, and dance it.


AMAZING - Well done!!!

[bordertangoman]

Last night I ws endeavour to teach walking turns without predeterming either partners steps or whether or not one was in cross system;
simplified this would mean step, 90 deg turn, step 90 turn, repeated till one was facing the line of dance again ( basically using the Castro system)

Start with leader & follower each decideing indepently which eg they are standing on to start with (4 possible combinations) then off you go.

Have fun trying this!

[Tango-ne]

I'm new to this discussion forum, heck, I'm new to tango, anyways, it might be a little late to jump into this thread, but it parallels something (as a newbie) I've been thinking about. One of my tango teachers sold me his iPod that was still loaded with over 1500 tango songs! It is only HALF of his collection. His knowledge of tango music is immense! He said though, that there are a few hundred "most popular" songs, out of which there are just a few dozen "always played" songs. And because he knows these songs...he knows when certain phrases are coming up, and he nails some pretty awesome moves right on the beat when the phrase comes up!

Ok, so that got me thinking: he is obviously responding to the music, and he is indeed being totally improvisionary, but he has the advantage of knowing the music and being able to set up a certain "moment" for his partner. Which I think is part of the dance where the motion is nailed onto the music, and it occurs to me that the other part that keeps it nailed is the end...where often he knows how many more steps are coming before the dramatic pose is hit! Come to think of it, the other part where the motion is totally there is when he starts...whereas I do the typically taught "listen, wait, come together, find her weight, listen, listen...annnnnnnd, go!", he gets to do all the waiting while knowing when he is going to start, so he gets to wind up to it.

What I learned is that knowing the technical points of a figure are necessary in order to do them spontaneously without pre-planning, or to do them even halfway, or break them apart into different steps, BUT also, knowing the music contributes greatly to knowing where to be spontaneous, and where you can be framed in by the music. I think of it as a whitewater raft ride, there are great expanses where you can paddle from shore to shore, but there are also narrow chasm where you can but ride out the rapids! (At this point, my sweetie will say, enough pontificating, get in more practice! so here I go)