Why competition?

[Zhena]

We have a couple of threads going that address this topic:

http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=28533
http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=27688

I'd like to approach it from another angle ... why competition? Please don't take this as bashing competition, but rather as a serious question.

Some of the purposes have been mentioned or implied include:

To measure personal progress (or, per Chris Stratton, the organizing goal of a persistent and targeted learning program).
To increase the level of ballroom dancing.
To increase the popularity of ballroom dancing.
To give people who like to compare themselves to others something to win.
To provide income opportunities to professionals.
To give people (men as well as women) an opportunity to "dress up".
Other ...?

I want to make it clear that I agree with all of these goals to some degree. But ... I'm not sure whether I can express this well ... I wonder which of these purposes are best achieved through competition, and whether there are some that might be better pursued through other means? Or at least, whether putting additional efforts into other means might accomplish the goals more efficiently?

What is it about competition that makes it so common? Why is so much time and money directed to these activities?

For example, for the cost of a competition (including preparatory lessons and costumes) you could have one heck of a party where you could get dressed up in gorgeous clothes and dance for several hours rather than 15 minutes out of an entire day.

Or, again for the cost of a set of competition entries where you catch the eye of the judges for 15 seconds out of every event and get a mysterious score, you could have one or more coachings with an expert who will look at YOU and YOUR dancing for long enough to evaluate how well you dance and tell you what you can do to improve!

I know that those who have won the big competitions can command higher prices for their lessons ... but, as has been said many times on these forums, a great dancer is not necessarily a great teacher. Is there a better way of determining who you want to take lessons from?

The only thing that competition seems to have that other avenues don't have is the "win" factor ... the prize or trophy. So am I missing something about competition, or is the "win" factor so big that it dominates all others?

I'd like to hear responses both on the questions of dance competition in a general sense, and why you as an individual choose to compete.

[Warren J. Dew]

To measure personal progress (or, per Chris Stratton, the organizing goal of a persistent and targeted learning program).
To increase the level of ballroom dancing.
To increase the popularity of ballroom dancing.
To give people who like to compare themselves to others something to win.
To provide income opportunities to professionals.
To give people (men as well as women) an opportunity to "dress up".
Other ...?

Competition is very difficult to beat for objective measurement of overall performance. It's easy to fool oneself when evaluating one's progress - even when listening to coaching feedback or watching videos - but how well one thinks one is dancing doesn't affect the number of places in the final.

Obviously competition is also the only real way to beat other people in dancing, though in my opinion that's not a very worthwhile goal.

For some of the other things, though - like the opportunity to dress up or the popularity of ballroom - I think competition is not the best way to do it. Social dancing will always have a broader appeal than competition, and formal dances would be less expensive than competitions for more dancing.

[mummsie]

I guess for us one of the big reasons is that it gives us the incentive to train hard and improve. If it were for training alone we would find excuses not to go and train because we would have nothing to aim for. Now we have moved up into Open, its even harder as there are a lot of people in the Open group who will always place even though they don't dance that well. We just have to plug away and make inroads into the highly competitive field. If we get called back to a semi at this stage, we are more than happy but one day I would love to get back to a major final. mummsie :)

[elisedance]

For some reason your list seems sterile. Thus, for me its:

To glory in dancing ballroom...

What I mean by that is most things above and that its way more than a sum of its parts.

[Angel HI]

Ditto this....

To measure personal progressTo increase the level of ballroom dancing.
To increase the popularity of ballroom dancing.
To give people who like to compare themselves to others something to win.
To provide income opportunities to professionals.
To give people (men as well as women) an opportunity to "dress up".


Ditto that....

...one of the big reasons is that it gives us the incentive to train hard and improve. If it were for training alone we would find excuses not to go and train because we would have nothing to aim for.

[latingal]

Reasons for competing in the ballroom style dances I'm sure are very similar to reasons people choose to compete in any sport.

They say sport and competition is like a microcosm of life itself, many of the same challenges but in a very short and condensed time frame. It gives one many opportunities not only to improve in a skill you enjoy, but to challenge yourself to grow as an individual.

That said, winning is nice too...but in the end, for me, not the ultimate reason I do this.

[wooh]

I like showcases (or demos or whatever) as a pursuit to goals. Gives me something to work on. Often with an expiration date attached. And if I want to, I can dress up. I don't need to "measure" my progress against rankings or levels. To me, I'm either progressing or I'm not. As long as I'm progressing, I don't care how much. As long as I do better with my next showcase than I did with my last, and that can be "better" in any number of ways, then I'm happy. And I think the entertainment factor is better for increasing the popularity of ballroom, after all, how many people attend a comp and how many people watch DWTS or go to see the DWTS tour that would NEVER attend a ballroom comp? I personally get bored watching the same people do the same dances over and over again. I still remember watching latin/rhythm day at SRC and that same woman in that same pink zebra dress do the same move in her rumbas and bolero in all 3 levels in both age categories. So 3 dances x 3 levels x 2 ages means I saw that same woman do that move EIGHTEEN times. You aren't going to get the average public to go watch that. Even high level pros in competition can get boring to watch, it's so much of the same thing over and over to the average eye. But a fun choreographed routine? Friends and family of mine seem to enjoy low level performances (and not just mine:)) over high level comp routines. So I really don't see comps as a way to increase popularity of ballroom to the public. (Although when it makes it into the Olympics, it will surely become as popular as the Olympic sports of curling and trampoline!)
I like to compete in non-ballroom venues. I'm very competitive in fact. Right now I'm happily making a website for someone that I know will be so much better than their business rivals'. And I love that I'm better than that hack of a web "designer." As for dancing, I love doing a better showcase with my current teacher's choreography than what my former instructor puts out. So I definitely do have a competitive streak. I could soooo easily get sucked into ballroom comps. But I really enjoy having something that I can just do, get better at, and not be forced to compare myself to others. Sure, I still do compare myself. But it's not the sole reason I'm there. And it's something that I really want to focus on the artistry of, rather than the "what do I have to do to win." I can concentrate on the feel of the dance, rather than on my spray tan or the perfect shiny hairdo or will the judges be offended by my choice of nail polish.
Besides I like concentrating on my own goals, not arbitrary ones set by comp organizers. If I want to work on standard waltz, smooth foxtrot, rhythm cha, and latin paso, I can do that. And I can happily ignore tango that I don't like. And I can ignore swing that I don't like. No "need" to learn them. I can march to the beat of my own drummer, as long as I'm in time with my partner. I don't want to dance Federation steps! A life lived in fear is a live half lived! (/rambling)

[fascination]

I think wooh makes some great points...a dedicated dancer can certainly prosper in a more independent way without competing and is able to custom design their path by not competing...

for me competition provides many things....it has a motivational factor for me...it insures that I will improve b/c it provides some timelines and pressures for me to internalize as motivational factors...some stress is good and some of us need a structural component to push ourselves toward our goals...so an upcoming comp, like a showcase, motivates me to work...

secondly, anyone who has competed alot will tell you that it beomes a community sort of feeling and a way of life...after a while, going to a comp is like going to a reunion, or going home even...if it is the place that you love...home isn't always functional...but it is home...and some of us have found that being there is like being home...of course I only speak for my own highly dysfunctional self...but that is my perogative...

I can say that I so look forward to ohio...part of it is going out there and trying to nail all that I have been working on, the stuff I love and the stuff that I could do without... part of it is just gazing upon the people I have grown accustomed to seeing... part of it is the whole ritual of costuming up.... and part of it is enjoying a meal or a drink with people who are my friends and who understand me like no one else possibly can...it isn't a life lived in fear for me, it is a life structured in a way that works for me on many levels

[danceronice]

Honestly, one reason I gave up horseback riding (besides the deep-seated and not 100% irrational fear of becoming a quadruplegic) was the realization I'd never have the money or connections to really be able to compete in the sport.

I agree that there are always chances to dance, but at a social they don't line you up at the end and tell you who won. Looking at my videos I can even see with showcases I don't quite give it all the way I do in a competition--there's something about having judges there, and other things to draw the audience's attention, that makes me just turn it on. And like fasc says, it's the ritual, too. Just like when I was riding, I didn't mind 4am wake-up calls when it meant I was out to the barn, we were braiding, I was putting on the ratcatcher and breeches and shining boots, the tack was all clean, I had a number on my jacket....it's all part of the drill. You don't get that preparing for a social, just stress about what to wear this time, can I dance in it, too much/not enough makeup, doing hair, etc. For a comp, there's easy answers to all that (plus there is no comparison between ordinary clothes and a custom-designed ball gown. Even wedding clothes I'm finding a little blase lately. Also wedding dances--bad a person as it makes me, I realized at my friend's wedding during their first dance, "Wow, this is a REALLY long time to do basically the same four or five steps over and over. And this is waltz but they've moved maybe eight feet." Of course it was good for people who'd only had maybe five lessons, but still, watching it wasn't all that interesting. Also, I discovered I really am spoiled--I'm used to songs with tempos adjusted to be dancible, and to having even the least experienced people on the floor known how to actually dance.)

[tanya_the_dancer]

Or maybe people compete because they find it thrilling. I love working on my dancing and making it better just for the sake of making it better, and I love to show off doing a showcase, or just dancing with a good partner, but I also love the thrill of competing against others. I don't really care about going to a super-fancy social or a dance cruise for the same amount of money. I don't get the same enjoyment out of them.

[Chris Stratton]

Or, again for the cost of a set of competition entries where you catch the eye of the judges for 15 seconds out of every event and get a mysterious score, you could have one or more coachings with an expert who will look at YOU and YOUR dancing for long enough to evaluate how well you dance and tell you what you can do to improve!

I'm making a guess here but it sounds as if the costs being compared are those of pro/am entries.

Traditionally pro/am was only available in lesson format or in competition, but that is changing in some places.

How would (or does) the possibility of attending a suitable "social" dance event with a hired partner compare to entering a pro/am competition, in terms of reward/cost ?

[njdancegirl]

How would (or does) the possibility of attending a suitable "social" dance event with a hired partner compare to entering a pro/am competition, in terms of reward/cost ?

For the first time, I did that this past weekend...took my pro to a social. I dance pro/am competitively with him, but used this outing as a way to just kick back and have fun with dancing with an excellent partner. Felt like I've been way too serious lately and needed to dance just for the joy of dancing. It was much less than a comp in terms of cost, much more than a social on my own. Reward was very good, but in a different way than competition rewards are for me - comps have goals; in social, only goal was to have fun. Complimentary, but not a replacement for me personally.

[Laura]

I compete because it's fun and exciting. Social dancing is fun too, but it's not the same. Getting dressed up and going to a party is fun too, but it's not the same. I like the competitive aspect of competition, the pressure to perform RIGHT NOW, the emotional ups and downs, the goal-setting and the training, and so on.

I've always been a competitive person -- horses when I was a kid, swimming in college, and now dancing. If I wasn't competing in dancing I'd probably be doing another hobby/sport with a competitive aspect, but as I enjoy dancing...well...here I am. :)

[waltzguy]

I think that competitions provide some sort of indicator on how well you can dance. As a previous poster has said, dance is subjective and comp results help objectify results to a certain degree. I do not use comps to beat other people (or be beaten), but to understand how we are doing.

[suburbaknght]

I guess for us one of the big reasons is that it gives us the incentive to train hard and improve. If it were for training alone we would find excuses not to go and train because we would have nothing to aim for. Now we have moved up into Open, its even harder as there are a lot of people in the Open group who will always place even though they don't dance that well. We just have to plug away and make inroads into the highly competitive field. If we get called back to a semi at this stage, we are more than happy but one day I would love to get back to a major final. mummsie :)

You hit the nail right on the head. For me, it makes a big difference in my training from saying, "I want to be a better dancer," to, "I need to execute silver level rise and fall in a fallaway twinkle, and I need it by March." While there are other ways to set goals, having specific deadlines and other people working with you towards those same deadlines makes a huge difference.

[etp777]

Absolutely SK.

[njdancegirl]

for me competition provides many things....it has a motivational factor for me...it insures that I will improve b/c it provides some timelines and pressures for me to internalize as motivational factors...some stress is good and some of us need a structural component to push ourselves toward our goals...so an upcoming comp, like a showcase, motivates me to work...

secondly, anyone who has competed alot will tell you that it beomes a community sort of feeling and a way of life...after a while, going to a comp is like going to a reunion, or going home even...if it is the place that you love...home isn't always functional...but it is home...and some of us have found that being there is like being home...of course I only speak for my own highly dysfunctional self...but that is my perogative...

Agree with both these sentiments...

I use it for setting goals, for motivation, to keep me focused. Love the preparation (physical and mental), seeing friends and familiar faces, the inspiration that is provided by those better than me, the energy and excitement, etc.

I too have always been a competitive person - as a kid, it was cheerleading, now it is dance. I like the rush...the dance high that I get from competing.

[Zhena]

To measure personal progress.
To increase the level of ballroom dancing.
To increase the popularity of ballroom dancing.
To give people who like to compare themselves to others something to win.
To provide income opportunities to professionals.
To give people (men as well as women) an opportunity to "dress up".
Other ...?



Added:
The competitive atmosphere (the rush, the excitement, the NOW)
Community
Ritual/structure
To glory in ballroom (Elise, would you expand on this? Is there something about competition as opposed to other venues that provides this for you? Or is it another way of saying one of the other things on the list?)

I have some comments and questions on some of the responses, but not enough time to write on what remains of my lunch hour ...

[Zhena]

I'm making a guess here but it sounds as if the costs being compared are those of pro/am entries.


I'm actually comparing it to the cost of a chain studio event where DH and I paid a lot of money for a day of watching other people dance, a few minutes of dancing ourselves (including a little bit of "general dancing" between heats and in the evening), a cocktail hour, dinner, and a floor show.

[tsb]

- to put the (hopefully flattering) results on one's resume to improve one's chances of getting film/video work;

- to gain a sense of accomplishment from having mastered a(n albeit somewhat arbitrary) syllabus the way one might pursue higher education for a degree;

but i still place the highest priority on being fun to dance *with* - and this includes not being a nuisance to anyone else on the floor due to poor floorcraft/"black belt" latin styling;

[etp777]

Yeah, chain comps are definitely not cheap, and you're paying for the comraderie/social aspect, not just the dancing.

For instance, comp this weekend (chain comp), cost just under $2500. Same amount of entries at harvest Moon would cost me $1050. But that's not a fair comparison, as chain cost includes cost of both of my pros' times for a day and a half. The $1050 doesn't, and I don't know what I would be charged for that. So while it's certainly cheaper, I doubt it's $1500 cheaper. And Harvest moon I'd have maybe 10-15 people I know. Our chain comp there was 100-150 people I know and I enjoy spending time with.

[DL]

I compete every so often because my practice partner regards me as her competition partner. But, when I play -- I play to win.

[DL]

- to put the (hopefully flattering) results on one's resume to improve one's chances of getting film/video work;


Actually, it's not totally useless in the tech sector, either.


but i still place the highest priority on being fun to dance *with* - and this includes not being a nuisance to anyone else on the floor due to poor floorcraft/"black belt" latin styling;

agree

[etp777]

Actually, it's not totally useless in the tech sector, either.

Ah, you mean lik ecertifications which are really no proof of anything, but which got me last job? Yeah, meaningless things on resume can be useful in tech sector.

[Dancemum]

Both my kids compete and for both it is a chance to perform and also to participate in a team activity (so both an art form and a sport as such). DD could do this in shows ( she competes ballet and theatre discaplines) but the festivals (comps) give her extra performace actives.

DS competes ballroom and latin and is competing in blackpool soon whcih will be a new and exciting experience- a chance to dance in the best known and one of the biggest ballrooms in the country
Also both my kids use it to judge progress (along with exams) in a sense competeing to beat your own best score not against others

PS I competed once- the reason I competed was to see what my kids go through- was a bag of nerves, but might do it again- it was nice to get the chance to dance

[waltzguy]

My experience has been that comps don't make me nervous, at least not anymore. Only solo show-dances still make me somewhat nervous. Perhaps that's another reason: comps prepare you for shows.

[etp777]

My experience has been that comps don't make me nervous, at least not anymore. Only solo show-dances still make me somewhat nervous. Perhaps that's another reason: comps prepare you for shows.

Definitely agree with you on this one, waltzguy. My comp entries weren't much of anything. Sure, a tiny bit of nervousness, but not much. Showcase I was extremely hesitant about and came off floor literally shaking. Still ahven't completely identified why it's so different (was on floor solo, without even support of pro's during gymnastics and track meets), but definitely a difference there for whatever reason.

[Stagekat]

Well it's harder to perform in front of everyone you know.. and especially at that time of day... I'm pretty sure you knew the ENTIRE room! Not to mention the extenuating circumstances behind that whole routine... I'd be very interested to hear how you feel after doing it when both pros are healed.

[samina]

It was much less than a comp in terms of cost, much more than a social on my own. Reward was very good, but in a different way than competition rewards are for me - comps have goals; in social, only goal was to have fun. Complimentary, but not a replacement for me personally.

good for you, njchica.

yes, cost is cheap...can't compare to a comp IMO. and what's nice is that it's *dancing*...not working on technique, not doing practice rounds, not competing under a judge's eye...you can focus on just allowing whatever you've been learning come out onto the floor in a relaxed way, with a good lead/

[DL]

Ah, you mean like certifications which are really no proof of anything, but which got me last job? Yeah, meaningless things on resume can be useful in tech sector.

I changed jobs recently, and mentioned, "sailing, judo, ballroom dancing," as interests at the bottom of my resume. I now know of something like 6 people associated with my new company who dance. Two work at my new company; one of them is in my group and interviewed me. There are a couple of other connections I won't go into, but, "it's a small world."

(Another interviewer asked me about sailing+judo.)

Anyway, even modest syllabus-level success, "wasn't totally useless," during interviews. Of course, it mostly helps to be good at my job!

[elisedance]

I compete every so often because my practice partner regards me as her competition partner. But, when I play -- I play to win.

Sounds to me as if you ARE her competitin partner then. I hope she understands your tenuous comittment to that role though.

[Chris Stratton]

DH and I paid a lot of money for a day of watching other people dance, a few minutes of dancing ourselves (including a little bit of "general dancing" between heats and in the evening), a cocktail hour, dinner, and a floor show.

That's arguably more "mini vacation package" than "competition"...

[Zhena]

That's arguably more "mini vacation package" than "competition"...

Hmmm ... I don't know how representative my experience was. Here's how it worked:

A couple of times a year, a group of studios from the same chain got together for a day. There were usually three judges for the whole day, judging every event (though I think they arranged things so they got occasional breaks in addition to the "general dancing" breaks for everyone).

They didn't group all the people in a single style/level at the same time, but had multiple heats that were never fed into a combined final. This meant that the teachers could dance multiple times (with multiple students) in the same style and level. This also meant that there were multiple "first place" winners at that style and level over the course of the competition, but it wasn't obvious because they never announced the winners AT the competition, but let the studios announce them back home. Sometimes the judges would be in the studio for the next day or two to give "critiques" or "coachings" or master classes.

The result was that I never felt like it was a competition. We won a lot of "firsts" but they didn't mean anything to me. I understood the events to be parties where we went to watch our friends dance and do a little dancing ourselves, with a dinner and a floor show including the "name" judges, plus a participant's medal thrown in for good measure. I liked the critiques afterwards because they provided good information on what we needed to work on.

Then last spring, they had a day that was just showcase routines (no "freestyle" heats). At the end of the day, they actually announced winners in various categories, and handed out trophies. Wow ... I looked at the program to see who had danced "against" us, and remembered enjoying the routine that won in our class, so I wasn't surprised we hadn't won. The next time we went to the studio, though, the owner said that due to a mix-up, they had lost track of the fact that our score was the same as the other couple, so we had tied for the win. That was the first time I felt like I had actually been in a competition. But, nice as it was to win, I didn't feel any happier than I did when the audience caught our energy during the showcase and started clapping with the music, or when we took our bows at the end. We knew we had done well, and we didn't need the trophy to reinforce that feeling.

So I guess you could say I've never experienced the competition "rush" ... any nervousness was simply due to dancing in front of people and not because anything important depended on doing something particularly well.

Except ... I did participate in a Jack and Jill competition a couple of months ago. I did four, I think. Most were OK ... I just danced with a strange partner, and didn't mind not getting to the final. But with one guy I picked up something that said he really wanted to win (though he didn't say so directly). This made me nervous, especially when he started by asking whether I danced smooth or standard. I'm aware of the theoretical difference from reading DF, but all I could do was stammer "smooth, I think". I don't know whether I'm reading something into this or not, but it seemed to me like he stiffened when I said that. The dance was foxtrot and I couldn't catch the rhythm he was leading because he was doing one of those high level interpretations. So I felt like I was letting him down, and I started to dance worse. It was a complete disaster, we didn't make the final, and I felt responsible. Of course he was a gentleman and said it didn't matter, but I think it did.

So ... not your typical competition experiences, I think. I'm still trying to understand competition, which is partly why I started the thread.

Wow ... this is one of my long posts again ... do I have a point? I don't know. I'll think about it later and maybe get back to you.

[noobster]

I don't know how enlightening this thread could ever be. Some people have the competitive spirit and others don't, and I don't know that there is more to it than that.

I do think that the culture of ballroom is so immersed in competition that there's not much room for high-level achievement in social dancing. I've never seen a ballroom social where there was anything like the level of dancing I see at WCS or salsa socials. A lot of this may be lack of exposure on my part but I doubt that's all of it. (After all I have seen lots of people on this board complain about the low level of dancing available to them at socials generally.)

If there were a culture of high-level social dancing in the ballroom world it might be more interesting to those of us who do not enjoy competition. As it is, it just doesn't seem like there's much for ballroom to offer in that arena. I almost think you could turn the question around and ask, "why dance ballroom and *not* compete?" since that's where so much of the ballroom culture is focused.

[DL]

I compete every so often because my practice partner regards me as her competition partner. But, when I play -- I play to win.


Sounds to me as if you ARE her competition partner then. I hope she understands your tenuous commitment to that role though.

Um, I think nothing I said there gives you enough information to characterize my, "commitment." I probably wouldn't compete if it weren't interesting to my partner, that's all.

We each know where the other is coming from. In a partnership or any relationship, good communication and a willingness to compromise go a long way.

[elisedance]

Interesting point about the level of social ballroom - I think we all see it. perhaps the answer is that to do ballroom at a high level you need a committed partner - more so, perhaps than the other dances you mention which have evolved to be relatively easy to grasp up to at least a moderate proficiency level. Once you have a committed partner there are a lot of opportunities for competition in ballroom and people move in that direction.

Also, high level dancers are encouraged in the social salsa scene, they can be actively discouraged in social ballroom, at least in standard, for fear (real or imagined) of collision and 'hogging' the floor (often real). No place better to go all out in standard than on a competition floor :)

[wooh]

I do think that the culture of ballroom is so immersed in competition that there's not much room for high-level achievement in social dancing. I've never seen a ballroom social where there was anything like the level of dancing I see at WCS or salsa socials. A lot of this may be lack of exposure on my part but I doubt that's all of it. (After all I have seen lots of people on this board complain about the low level of dancing available to them at socials generally.)


Of course part of that is self-perpetuating. "I'm a high level dancer so I won't social dance because there's no high level dancing."

[wooh]

To continue with my last comment, the emphasis on competition discourages social ballroom from progressing. How many threads do we have where people are worried social dancing will hurt their comp dancing? After all, dancing with anyone other than your pro will ruin your frame and your following and your toes and whatever. So lots of people think it's one or the other, and with the perpetuated idea that you have to do comps to improve, there goes all the "good" dancers into competition oblivion. Except for us few diehard social dancers.

[Mostly Ballroom]

I'm not sure there's much to drive high level dancing in social ballroom. I believe that salsa has a pecking order where good dancers don't dance with people below them. You really do have to work your way up. In ballroom we're so nice we dance with everybody and every body dances with me. And with an abundance of women in my neck of the woods the men don't have to work so hard to get dances as they do in salsa. In salsa I had to work darn hard for two months (I think I put a lot of the experiences here as tacad in the salsa forum) before I was able to consistently get dances. In ballroom I've been rather lackadaisical. I've been dancing with better dancers than me which has raised my level of dancing somewhat but I haven't even taken a group lesson for two years. So I don't see a big drive for people to get better. Or at least for men to get better. Maybe women experience more of a need to dance well because of the relatively fewer men but I don't know. I think competition adds an impetus which is absent from social dancing.

By the way I see three levels of social dancing in my circles. People who are doing better technique or are trying to do better technique (I try or at least am conscious of it.), an older set that doesn't do too much in the way of technique or style but they are having a good time, and some who I would call street ballroom dancers. They definitely have style and panache and are pretty versatile but not classic ballroom technique by any means. These last two are not affected by competitors in my opinion and live in their own world. The first set which I belong to is affected by competitors, IMO.

[elisedance]

I actually agree wooh - I absolutely love to social dance and let my mind go into dream space. For me its really what dancing is all about. However, getting there - into that head space - means learning technique and steps that most social dancers either do not have time for or do not want at all - for these I have to be in the competition environment. It so happens that I love competition too (but not as much as simply dancing to be honest) so the two go well together for me.

When we are at a social dance I never, never ever, get asked to dance by anyone other than my partner (and he never asks anyone else for that matter). That is, actually, the norm here - and is also the case for most of the social dancers. People dance with their partners exclusively so the issue of effect on dancing does not come up (and is actually a red herring for me - I love to dance with anyone with at least a modicum of training).

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Interesting point about the level of social ballroom - I think we all see it. perhaps the answer is that to do ballroom at a high level you need a committed partner - more so, perhaps than the other dances you mention which have evolved to be relatively easy to grasp up to at least a moderate proficiency level. Once you have a committed partner there are a lot of opportunities for competition in ballroom and people move in that direction.

Also, high level dancers are encouraged in the social salsa scene, they can be actively discouraged in social ballroom, at least in standard, for fear (real or imagined) of collision and 'hogging' the floor (often real). No place better to go all out in standard than on a competition floor :)
The other dances may not have the same technical emphasis as ballroom, but they seem to direct that energy towards improvisation and musicality on both the social and competition floors.

Perhaps our areas are different. I can't imagine advanced dancers ever being encouraged to stay off the social floor. I can name at least four social venues where they would need to make little to no adjustment to their level of dancing.

[elisedance]

You are fortunate indeed - social dancing is very popular here and the floors are often too crowded to even dance a few 'competition style' steps let alone a routine - at least during the 'peak' hours. We compensate by going early or staying late and using the in between time for practising floor craft or just having fun of course.

[njdancegirl]

So ... not your typical competition experiences, I think. I'm still trying to understand competition, which is partly why I started the thread.

Zhena, you attended a closed comp. Maybe before you can make a solid decision about competition - whether it is for you or not - you should try other competitions. Try NDCA sanctioned or USA dance (if am/am)...sounds as though things are run a bit differently. If you still don't get what everyone is going on about, then maybe competition isn't for you is all. Not a bad thing...you'll find a different dance thing.

[tanya_the_dancer]

When we are at a social dance I never, never ever, get asked to dance by anyone other than my partner (and he never asks anyone else for that matter). That is, actually, the norm here - and is also the case for most of the social dancers. People dance with their partners exclusively so the issue of effect on dancing does not come up (and is actually a red herring for me - I love to dance with anyone with at least a modicum of training).

Man, it must really suck to be an unpartnered dancer (social or competitive) in your area.

The social scene around here is different. There is a lot of unpartnered people and while women outnumber men, most of those who do have a partner still dance with others. However, if you exclude those (maybe 10 or so people) who compete, the skill level spread is not that big.

[waltzguy]

Interesting point about the level of social ballroom - I think we all see it. perhaps the answer is that to do ballroom at a high level you need a committed partner - more so, perhaps than the other dances you mention which have evolved to be relatively easy to grasp up to at least a moderate proficiency level. Once you have a committed partner there are a lot of opportunities for competition in ballroom and people move in that direction.


I wholeheartedly agree with this.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I don't know how enlightening this thread could ever be. Some people have the competitive spirit and others don't, and I don't know that there is more to it than that.

I do think that the culture of ballroom is so immersed in competition that there's not much room for high-level achievement in social dancing. I've never seen a ballroom social where there was anything like the level of dancing I see at WCS or salsa socials. A lot of this may be lack of exposure on my part but I doubt that's all of it. (After all I have seen lots of people on this board complain about the low level of dancing available to them at socials generally.)

If there were a culture of high-level social dancing in the ballroom world it might be more interesting to those of us who do not enjoy competition. As it is, it just doesn't seem like there's much for ballroom to offer in that arena. I almost think you could turn the question around and ask, "why dance ballroom and *not* compete?" since that's where so much of the ballroom culture is focused.

This is an interesting point. OK, I'm not familiar with salsa or WCS scene, so I can't comment on the level there. With the ballroom, however, it does seem that at a certain level of interest/commitment to it, people get drawn into some type of competition. Even those of us who are not as young and it's obvious that we will not have a meaningful (from outside perspective) competitive career. It's almost as if the same personality traits which make a person want to pursue something with high level of commitment, make them want to go out there and show off, and ballroom social scene is not perceived as a place to show off, I think.

[Angel HI]

It's almost as if the same personality traits which make a person want to pursue something with high level of commitment, make them want to go out there and show off, ....

Or, just dress up and dance for fun; competition being a secondary means to.

...and ballroom social scene is not perceived as a place to show off, I think.

Thank you! And, I hope you don't mind my bold. I know many persons who need to read that.

[waltzguy]

If you check out my avatar, you'll see that another reason for a comp is to wear the numbers on your back (for men anyways). This allows you to easily see the degree of swing on a waltz natural turn. :D

Of course, having a photographer helps too.

[anp73ga31]

Of course part of that is self-perpetuating. "I'm a high level dancer so I won't social dance because there's no high level dancing."

You gotta admit, though, that it is hard around here at socials to find a guy to dance with who will even attempt hold their arms up in some semblance of a frame. Give me a social where the guys will at least commit to their frame and I'd be happy! Also alot of ppl who social dance (around here anyway) are content to do the same steps with no technique whatsoever like they have been doing for the past twenty years. Not all of them, but alot of them. So I can see how some ppl think that social dancing could be bad for them in that dancing with someone who doesnt even attempt hold their frame makes you have to relax yours to compensate so you dont look ridiculous holding your arms up in midair where his should be. I can see both sides. I like to social dance because it is fun and relaxing, but I will always prefer dancing with my pro the most because he can correct the things I am doing wrong and then I can fix them so that I can get better. In this respect I will always pick private lessons above social dancing and even competing.

Also, with regards to social dancing, you do have a slight advantage to others who social dance in that your husband is quite good (thanks to you). You have to admit, that he is usually one of the best (if not the best) guy dancer in the room at socials around here. And you know we are still ballroom babies so thats not exactly saying very much! lol!

[tanya_the_dancer]

Or, just dress up and dance for fun

For some reason, it just does not appeal to me as the main goal anymore. Although when I just started dancing, that was all I wanted. But then I got in touch with my competitive streak...

[elisedance]

If you check out my avatar, you'll see that another reason for a comp is to wear the numbers on your back (for men anyways). This allows you to easily see the degree of swing on a waltz natural turn. :D

Of course, having a photographer helps too.

As do plumb lines on your partners gown... ;)

[wooh]

Also, with regards to social dancing, you do have a slight advantage to others who social dance in that your husband is quite good (thanks to you). You have to admit, that he is usually one of the best (if not the best) guy dancer in the room at socials around here.

He's cute too, but don't go let him hearing that. He's already got all that head weight to learn to put in the right place. Don't need his head getting bigger!:)

[waltzguy]

As do plumb lines on your partners gown... ;)

Yup.

[syncopationator]

For me, I feel in love with dancing from the begining; however, it didn't become a passion until I discovered Dancesport.

[Mostly Ballroom]

I don't know how enlightening this thread could ever be. Some people have the competitive spirit and others don't, and I don't know that there is more to it than that.

I do think that the culture of ballroom is so immersed in competition that there's not much room for high-level achievement in social dancing. I've never seen a ballroom social where there was anything like the level of dancing I see at WCS or salsa socials. A lot of this may be lack of exposure on my part but I doubt that's all of it. (After all I have seen lots of people on this board complain about the low level of dancing available to them at socials generally.)

If there were a culture of high-level social dancing in the ballroom world it might be more interesting to those of us who do not enjoy competition. As it is, it just doesn't seem like there's much for ballroom to offer in that arena. I almost think you could turn the question around and ask, "why dance ballroom and *not* compete?" since that's where so much of the ballroom culture is focused.
It's difficult to dance at a high level socially with all skill levels present at the same time. It's difficult for me. And I am not high level. In salsa the good dancers arrive a bit later and crowd the beginners off the floor. Or they manage to occupy their own portion of the floor. In ballroom culturally this isn't acceptable.

Now at Westmor on Friday night I'd love to see some beginners try to dance around the edges of the floor. The competitors there I dare say could do a bit of intimidation lol. I was there one night just watching. They just dance by and "encourage you" to not stand on the edge of the floor lol.

[SwingWaltz]

This allows you to easily see the degree of swing on a waltz natural turn. :grin:
:shock:

Oh...you get to meet lots of girls at competition. :rolleyes:

[Chris Stratton]

on Friday night I'd love to see some beginners try to dance around the edges of the floor.

Slower traffic really belongs to the inside, not on the outside.

They just dance by and "encourage you" to not stand on the edge of the floor lol.

Nobody should be standing on the floor who is not actively dancing the dance being done at that point of the time.

[waltzguy]

Nobody should be standing on the floor who is not actively dancing the dance being done at that point of the time.

True. However, this is seriously violated at some social dances. People would just start socializing up a storm after a dance, right on the dance floor. :x

[elisedance]

Social vs competition dancer tales reminds me of the Rogers and Hammerstein song:
"The farmer and the cowman should be friends.
Oh, the farmer and the cowman should be friends.
One likes to push a plow,
the other likes to chase a cow,
but that's no reason why they can't be friends."

But as soon as there is a shortage of space there there is every reason why they wouldn't be. I'm afraid exactly the same goes for out two groups - crowd the floor and the competitors can't go all out while the social dancers get afraid of being taken out!

"The dance -sporter and the social should be friends.
Oh, the dance -sporter and the social should be friends.
One likes to push the limit,
the other likes to be quite timid,
but that's no reason why they can't be friends."

[Stagekat]

Cute Elise :-)
Although as a social dancer...I'm definitely not timid... I'm just not nearly as polished...but I like to go all out when I can...I leave that more up to my lead than how crowded the floor is...the floor is ALWAYS crowded at my studio. :p

[wooh]

Social vs competition dancer tales reminds me of the Rogers and Hammerstein song:
"The farmer and the cowman should be friends.
Oh, the farmer and the cowman should be friends.
One likes to push a plow,
the other likes to chase a cow,
but that's no reason why they can't be friends."

But as soon as there is a shortage of space there there is every reason why they wouldn't be. I'm afraid exactly the same goes for out two groups - crowd the floor and the competitors can't go all out while the social dancers get afraid of being taken out!

"The dance -sporter and the social should be friends.
Oh, the dance -sporter and the social should be friends.
One likes to push the limit,
the other likes to be quite timid,
but that's no reason why they can't be friends."

Not all of us are timid.:rolleyes:

It sure would be nice to have ONE of these threads where we can refrain from insulting the other side.

[etp777]

Yeah, and depending on the leader, that sometimes will have Kat bumping into people like me and BB. :P

[Chris Stratton]

What I've found in discussions with "some of them" is that there's can be quite strong resistance to the idea of not dancing every last song, in the hopes of having a better time on the ones you do dance.

Part of what sets a competition apart from social dancing is that we have a system of taking turns on the floor. Not that I'm recommending that we drive 4 hours and wait around several more to dance 10 minutes, but some kind of informal scheme that gave everyone a nice dance on average every third song would seem far better than "sidewalk outside Penn station at rush hour" type conditions.

[anp73ga31]

He's cute too, but don't go let him hearing that. He's already got all that head weight to learn to put in the right place. Don't need his head getting bigger!:)


:uplaugh:

your secret is safe with me.....

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Social vs competition dancer tales reminds me of the Rogers and Hammerstein song:
"The farmer and the cowman should be friends.
Oh, the farmer and the cowman should be friends.
One likes to push a plow,
the other likes to chase a cow,
but that's no reason why they can't be friends."

But as soon as there is a shortage of space there there is every reason why they wouldn't be. I'm afraid exactly the same goes for out two groups - crowd the floor and the competitors can't go all out while the social dancers get afraid of being taken out!

"The dance -sporter and the social should be friends.
Oh, the dance -sporter and the social should be friends.
One likes to push the limit,
the other likes to be quite timid,
but that's no reason why they can't be friends."
Creative, elise. :)

However, there are many social dancers on (and off) DF who do not fit your description. It would be nice if you could try to stay away from these generalizations. :)

[Stagekat]

Yeah, and depending on the leader, that sometimes will have Kat bumping into people like me and BB. :P


:uplaugh: ---> :-|

Funny...

Are we referring to the party where that particular lead happens to be related to you?
or...
Did I happen to participate in some unknown transgression over the weekend? I don't recall running into anyone...

[Leonid Turetsky]

The reason why people go to competitions, is Drum roll.... Because that is basically the only place where you can dance!!??

See other dance forms like ballet, jazz, tap etc... Are performance oriented. They Don't have comps! They work on technique and music and etc, So that they can perform Perform perform better! Mind you they are very serious about it but look they got no comps, and yet they stay motivated.


Now Ballroom dancing (especially international style) where you want to do all your technique and dance your best doesn't really occur in social events!
I hardly even see anybody do an international Samba, Paso doble or Quickstep as well in social dance with some random partner, as they would with their regular partner, with the memorized routine in a comp.

So Competitions basically are the "performance" (tap, jazz, ballet) in ballroom dancing. Only its a competition!

The other things we have are showcases and those truly are like the other art forms performance oriented, but for some reason people who ballroom dance need to win a place to prove to themselves they are worth while beings?

LOL

[etp777]

Heh, yeah, talking about the party. :) Actualy didn't get a chance to dance with B at all this weekend. Though in the video of heats, you could see her and rest of pros from your studio all watching me and cheering me on every time I passed that corner of floor, which was certainly nice.

[Stagekat]

To be totally out of character and OT for a moment... I actually agree with Turetsky.. except for that last bit...

K...back to what has become my tradition... hijacking..
I thought you were referring to the party... :-) I hope to never have quite the "battering ram" night again!!!

[Mostly Ballroom]

Slower traffic really belongs to the inside, not on the outside.



Nobody should be standing on the floor who is not actively dancing the dance being done at that point of the time.
Yes. And the dancers at Westmor enforced this (me standing on the edge not knowing this) by coming along and precisely brushing me as they went past lol. If you brought the same dynamic to a social dance one might be able to dance at a higher level than is currently possible. But we're mostly polite and don't do such things like crowd out dancers who are not in their correct lane.

[Mostly Ballroom]

Social vs competition dancer tales reminds me of the Rogers and Hammerstein song:
"The farmer and the cowman should be friends.
Oh, the farmer and the cowman should be friends.
One likes to push a plow,
the other likes to chase a cow,
but that's no reason why they can't be friends."

But as soon as there is a shortage of space there there is every reason why they wouldn't be. I'm afraid exactly the same goes for out two groups - crowd the floor and the competitors can't go all out while the social dancers get afraid of being taken out!

"The dance -sporter and the social should be friends.
Oh, the dance -sporter and the social should be friends.
One likes to push the limit,
the other likes to be quite timid,
but that's no reason why they can't be friends."
Sounds like fun! :cool:

[fascination]

Not all of us are timid.:rolleyes:

It sure would be nice to have ONE of these threads where we can refrain from insulting the other side.
agree

[elisedance]

Not all of us are timid.:rolleyes:

It sure would be nice to have ONE of these threads where we can refrain from insulting the other side.

Please dont take offence - I was only trying to make light of it precisely by stereotyping...

Hey, go to town, you write a version OK?

[Rugby]

I love it Elise.

Perhaps you should have said:

One likes to push the limits,
the other likes to limit the pushes.

[Angel HI]

Now Ballroom dancing (especially international style) where you want to do all your technique and dance your best doesn't really occur in social events!

It does in europe. It's just what one becomes accostomed to.

Please dont take offence - I was only trying to make light of it precisely by stereotyping...

In all fairness, that's the way I read it. Albeit, I do understand TC's point about being careful of generalizations...dangerous in person, let alone cyber chat.

[Chris Stratton]

Now Ballroom dancing (especially international style) where you want to do all your technique and dance your best doesn't really occur in social events!

With a good partner, you can actually end up using most of your technical skills on a social floor, though you may end up exercising them in different ways than you would at a competition. For example, instead of foot strength letting you project a huge feather, it might let you precisely place a small curved feather into the one available space in the room. Certainly there's a need for an active competitor (or anyone with fond memories of a previous career) to find a time when they have space to stretch their legs. But those are not the only situations in which very high quality dancing can occur.

I think there are two primary reasons socials often aren't recognized as options for good dancing.

The first is that to dance well, you need to be with someone where you each have enough reserve of security in your basics and well-founded trust in your reflexes that you have the luxury of being able to really dance with each other in natural coordination. Unfortunately, there's only a tiny fraction of dances where you will meet a stranger you can click with like this; usually if you want to get to dance like that, you need an attendance conspiracy.

The second is the frequent emphasis of lessons on the "show" skills of competition rather than the supporting "dance" or even "partnering" skills. You probably won't make your biggest shape ever on the social floor, but you might well make your most partner-interactive one.

[Mostly Ballroom]

With a good partner, you can actually end up using most of your technical skills on a social floor, though you may end up exercising them in different ways than you would at a competition. For example, instead of foot strength letting you project a huge feather, it might let you precisely place a small curved feather into the one available space in the room. Certainly there's a need for an active competitor (or anyone with fond memories of a previous career) to find a time when they have space to stretch their legs. But those are not the only situations in which very high quality dancing can occur.

I think there are two primary reasons socials often aren't recognized as options for good dancing.

The first is that to dance well, you need to be with someone where you each have enough reserve of security in your basics and well-founded trust in your reflexes that you have the luxury of being able to really dance with each other in natural coordination. Unfortunately, there's only a tiny fraction of dances where you will meet a stranger you can click with like this; usually if you want to get to dance like that, you an attendance conspiracy.

The second is the frequent emphasis of lessons on the "show" skills of competition rather than the supporting "dance" or even "partnering" skills. You probably won't make your biggest shape ever on the social floor, but you might well make your most partner-interactive one.
Great stuff!

[Angel HI]

With a good partner, you can actually end up using most of your technical skills on a social floor, though you may end up exercising them in different ways than you would at a competition.

Perfect.

[elisedance]

I love it Elise.

Perhaps you should have said:

One likes to push the limits,
the other likes to limit the pushes.

Thxs RB. I like yours better!

[elisedance]

Originally Posted by Chris Stratton
With a good partner, you can actually end up using most of your technical skills on a social floor, though you may end up exercising them in different ways than you would at a competition.

Perfect.

Ego cogruo. CS!

[Joe]

Yes. And the dancers at Westmor enforced this (me standing on the edge not knowing this) by coming along and precisely brushing me as they went past
You must have been really crowding the plate. ;)

[fascination]

In all fairness, that's the way I read it. Albeit, I do understand TC's point about being careful of generalizations...dangerous in person, let alone cyber chat.
same here...

[Mostly Ballroom]

You must have been really crowding the plate. ;)
:) I don't remember how far in I was. I was turned sideways or something and didn't notice them come up. All of a sudden I feel a brush. :shock: :rolleyes:

[waltzguy]

I think there are two primary reasons socials often aren't recognized as options for good dancing.

The first is that to dance well, you need to be with someone where you each have enough reserve of security in your basics and well-founded trust in your reflexes that you have the luxury of being able to really dance with each other in natural coordination. Unfortunately, there's only a tiny fraction of dances where you will meet a stranger you can click with like this; usually if you want to get to dance like that, you need an attendance conspiracy.

What? Am I missing something here? Does going to a social dance exclude you from the option of bringing your amateur competition partner?

And in fact, if you do bring your partner, I would believe that a social dance floor is sometimes the best place to strut your stuff. It's where technique meets floorcraft.

Now, the fact that it may be construed as showing off, well, that's another issue.

[waltzguy]

Another reason that I like competitions is that it is one of the few times where the man really can be chivilrous (spelling?). You know, debutante style. In the US anyways, chivalry is basically dead at social dances, for example.

[elisedance]

I like that WG - and its actually an key element of competetive dancing - at least in the Smandard styles.

[Chris Stratton]

What? Am I missing something here? Does going to a social dance exclude you from the option of bringing your amateur competition partner?

And that would be why I was talking about why socials often aren't recognized as options for good dancing rather than why they can't be - especially if you coordinate with friends ;-)