Many Salsa Moves Imported from Swing?

[DanceMentor]

More and more I see things like...
the tunnel
the pretzel
sweetheart
and many acrobatic moves...
that I'm pretty sure first appeared in Swing dancing.
What do you think of this trend?

[Sagitta]

Well...I think it is okay as long as the moves are adapted to the salsa style of dancing, that is if I use a swing move in salsa it should look like salsa and not like swing. I actually have done cuddle/sweetheart to hammerlock recently and I think it looks like sasla when I do it. :)

[pygmalion]

The basket (whip in swing) Works really well in salsa. 8) :)

[etchuck]

Is that necessarily wrong? I mean, so what if you can do a cuddle in salsa as well as doing one in swing? I don't think it's necessarily an adaptation. An arch turn is an arch turn, a loop turn is a loop turn... it's just the rhythm of the footwork that makes one a figure in salsa and the other in swing.

Besides, it makes things easier for me to dance both dances. :)

[Sagitta]

Is that necessarily wrong? I mean, so what if you can do a cuddle in salsa as well as doing one in swing? I don't think it's necessarily an adaptation. An arch turn is an arch turn, a loop turn is a loop turn... it's just the rhythm of the footwork that makes one a figure in salsa and the other in swing.

Besides, it makes things easier for me to dance both dances. :)

Not only rhythm, but how the move is executed, the styling that goes into execution and the footwork as well. I find the differences greater for leaders then for followers. I can do the cuddle, for instance, in salsa, on beat and to the salsa rhythm, and have all people who know swing say that guy does swing and is just using the same moves. I can do the cuddle very differently and have the same people not even having the faintest thought that I learnt that move in swing. That is what really makes a move belong to the dance. I've seen some followers start slipping into swing when I do a salsa move that also is done in swing. They are using the salsa rhythm and they are on beat, but in this case they are doing swing to salsa. If that's what you want to do and recognize it as such then that's up to you, as long as you don't call it salsa.

[pelao]

yea, without a doubt. from the early days of mambo, people knew that a major influence of it came from big band/jazz. If you look, in the old days of mambo in ny, many people were incorporating many of these swing/jazz moves into the dancing.

I think the main thing that makes something 'salsa', in respect to dance, is the footwork and physical rhythm the body creates. Apart from that, a lot of these very physical moves (like turns and such), were almost definitely from swing. Traditionally, to this day, salsa/mambo/etc. dancing is more subtle, and/or, has more of an afro-latin style to the dancing.

Actually, you guys should read about early afro-cuban music history. It talks a lot about how government, american culture/music, and local cuban culture influenced many of their genres of music. It even talks about how certain instruments were created, and/or why they were used, due to early cuban dictators banning the use of 'american' (i.e. - which instruments were associated with american music) instruments (and music!) in cuba.

[pygmalion]

Cool idea, pelao. I think there was a thread around here somewhere that recommended books and web sites where you could that info. Now I just have to figure out where that thread was. Hmm. Or else google. :lol:

[tsb]

if anything, salsa & hustle look a lot alike; if you put a couple dancing hustle next to a couple dancing salsa & turned off the music, the dancing & figures would look very similar. and a lot of basic hustle moves are similar to basic swing moves. but it's just natural for dancers to see a move from another dance & when appropriate, find a way to modify it to expand their own repetoire.

[Pacion]

I mean, so what if you can do a cuddle in salsa as well as doing one in swing?

Did someone say cuddle? :mrgreen: I also did a cuddle like move in lambada :banana: so I think that it is possible that each of the moves may have been "original" in each danceform, it is just the execution/body action/footwork that would make it different.

In swing, do the dancers use their hips and shoulders as much as salsa dancers though?

[borikensalsero]

if anything, salsa & hustle look a lot alike; if you put a couple dancing hustle next to a couple dancing salsa & turned off the music, the dancing & figures would look very similar. and a lot of basic hustle moves are similar to basic swing moves. but it's just natural for dancers to see a move from another dance & when appropriate, find a way to modify it to expand their own repetoire.

Ok, lets differentiate this even further, since I’ve also heard too many times that Hustle and salsa without the music are the same dance. Indeed, the hustle style that NY City style is known for looks like hustle, which is what it actually is. A hustle done to salsa, in fact that is one of the many complaints that NY City style has here in NY City by Old School salsa dancers. They say that it is nothing but hustle done to salsa music.

That style being the prevalent in the 80s and the only one that really took off, then it rooted in other parts of the United States, eventually the world. So now, what people really see in the world of salsa is one version of Salsa. A hustle salsa that captivated dancers by its fast movements done to a seductive beat/rhythm/etc... Its main advocate was a hustle dancer, so when he passed salsa along to new students, he could only pass that which he knew: Hustle.

However, if you watch a person with an afro-cuban influence, the last thing you will notice is any Hustle to their dancing, except that the combination moves are found in hustle as well, but they just don’t seem the same. The reason is that an afro-Cuban influence in technique requires the body to move differently. The dance stops being feet, and arms, and becomes more of a body dance. That style is more influenced by early salsa roots all the way down to an art form, which is something that The Hustle Style born in NY City lacks: Afro-Cuban movement.

For the many that say if you turn the music off with a salsa you won’t know what is being danced, that view is concentrated one prevalent style, the very well known hustle salsa style born in NY City. Which can only mean that the person doesn’t have an expanded view of salsa. Even if salsa today is about 90 hustle like. Another great characteristic of salsa, that we can incorporate even other dances to it.

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

The basket (whip in swing) Works really well in salsa. 8) :)

Ahh! No wonder I can´t do this move right yet. It´s not an original salsa move. I knew there was some reason for it. :wink:

[sbsalsera]

However, if you watch a person with an afro-cuban influence, the last thing you will notice is any Hustle to their dancing, except that the combination moves are found in hustle as well, but they just don’t seem the same. The reason is that an afro-Cuban influence in technique requires the body to move differently. The dance stops being feet, and arms, and becomes more of a body dance. That style is more influenced by early salsa roots all the way down to an art form, which is something that The Hustle Style born in NY City lacks: Afro-Cuban movement.
I couldn't agree with you more!

There's someone who teaches salsa in the LA area with a strong background in West Coast Swing. His group classes are great, and I enjoy them very much - especially because he breaks down the combinations well and keeps everyone in the class interested with styling alternatives or advanced variations.

For the longest time, though, I couldn't figure out why certain things didn't feel quite right. Like using three forward rock steps as preps for a turn (as done in WCS). Or another example: whenever I dance with this person, my initial step is late. Very definitely and consistently late, no matter how closely I'm paying attention.

Now I think both cases are related to Cuban/Latin motion. Those sharp prep steps just don't seem to allow the Cuban/Latin movement of salsa. And my initial step is late probably because I don't feel his upper body move before he takes his initial step. In comparison, when I'm dancing with someone with good Cuban/Latin motion, I can feel the timing and direction of his steps through the movement of his ribcage BEFORE he actually takes any steps. This makes it a lot easier to dance in sync!

[dancin/dj]

well i've danced in ny, nj, phila with some of the best hustle dancers/a crowd im part of, we do ny style hustle ,but i can do street also,and im part of the salsa crowd also,and certain moves done in ny style hustle look nothing like salsa at all,however i've noticed that when the advanced la style performers do their thing it looks more like hustle to me ,and theres a style in north jersey that juan caldrorn teaches that looks like hustle too me,too each his own,i try to get what i consider the look of salsa when i do salsa and the look of hustle when i do that-same goes for west coast,but all in all the dance leaders(so called movers and shakers) of hustle, salsa and west&east coast swing all have been swapping moves and patterns across america,but i admit like to see each one keep its own flavor as far as salsa looking like salsa etc etc.

[Sagitta]

Me too dancin/dj. Me too!! :) Usually, until I get into one of my funny moods and want to do something different. :)

[dancin/dj]

Me too dancin/dj. Me too!! :) Usually, until I get into one of my funny moods and want to do something different. :) lol :)