Learning Lindy Hop Before ECS

[DanceMentor]

I have this private lesson student who learned how to Lindy, but never learned triple count swing. I would try to lead a rock step and she would do "swivel, swivel". It just struck me as odd. I start dancing ECS steps and she couldn't follow me! Isn't that strange? Have you known pure Lindy Hoppers?

[HepcatBob]

I learned Lindy Hop before ECS. I had tried ECS a couple of times, but it just didn't feel right. Being a long-time amateur/semi-pro musician, and having played in a big band for a number of years, Lindy Hop just seemed to fit the music a lot better. I had a really hard time getting used to doing a 6-count step.

(It's funny. Even now, I find myself playing the trombone part in my head while I'm dancing.)

[Sagitta]

Interesting. I know many people who learnt ECS before lindy, but never lindy before ECS. The feel of the two dances are different, and so I would guess that if one suits your dance style more then the other it could be a difficult transition.

[Spitfire]

What seems like standard procedure from what I've observed is that Lindy groups will actually teach ECS at their group classes right before a swing dance. Lindy is taught in workshops and seperate class sessions.

I guess the purpose is that if one learns ECS that will make it easier to learn Lindy.

[DanceMentor]

Actually my student knew "side, side rock step", but not "triple, triple rock step". She said they taught 1x rhythm swing and then went strait into Lindy.

[Spitfire]

Actually my student knew "side, side rock step", but not "triple, triple rock step". She said they taught 1x rhythm swing and then went strait into Lindy.

They also teach that one as well; in fact more so then triple step. Many people believe ECS to refer to both.

[Sagitta]

Actually my student knew "side, side rock step", but not "triple, triple rock step". She said they taught 1x rhythm swing and then went strait into Lindy.

They also teach that one as well; in fact more so then triple step. Many people believe ECS to refer to both.

Doesn't it? If not what do you call it?

[Swing Kitten]

I'm under the impression that she's a very new lindy hopper... I wonder how long one could put off learning triple step ECS without a concerted effort to avoid it.

It seems that often ECS serves as a primer for lindy.. so I don't understand why they wouldn't teach triple stepping during the EC portion of the lesson to get it out of the way to apply it to the lindy part :shrug:

btw, ECS and lindy can, and often do, have a simlar 'feel' it's all about the athletic stance ;)

[DanceMentor]

I'm under the impression that she's a very new lindy hopper... I wonder how long one could put off learning triple step ECS without a concerted effort to avoid it.

It seems she was having trouble dancing with people at the public dances, and it took me 3 lessons to figure out why. I'm pretty sure part of of it was related to her leack of ECS. I must say though...she's a darn good dancer, so I'm glad I'm getting this opportunity to help her.

[d nice]

Actually sounds like her lindy instruction either wasn't very thorough or that she didn't take all of it in. Lindy Hop uses the double-triple-triple timing as well as double-triple-double-triple. Dancing without the six count rhythm greatly restricts one ability to dance to the music.

I know lots of people who learn lindy and never pick up ECS... after all ECS is based on a narrowed section of lindy hops lexicon. The general rule is if you can actually dance lindy hop triple rhythm swing is aoutmatically part of your repetoire.

I think part of the problem is the difference between an implied rockstep in ECS and the lead rock-step in Lindy Hop. In lindy hop you don't as a general rule execute an open position six count "basic". The rhythm is used in moves that maintain the lindy hop dynamic. She might have problems because her expectations don't match up with yours... but if you don't rock her back trhen she can take any step-step variation she wants as long as it does not break the connection between the two of you. Check her frame if you are physically leading the rock, but she is staying in place or coming forward.

[DanceMentor]

Yes, she is now doing much better following the lead for the rock step in the open position. At the venue she visits, ECS is at least 50%. She told she is doing much better now at the club. She seems to have learned almost entirely 8-count steps previously.

I've also introduced her to salsa, and she went to the club for the first time, and had a great time. When I started working on salsa, I did a lot of work on making her turns cleaner and getting her to have a better posture. She made the comment (jokingly) that Lindy Hoppers don't really have to learn technique, posture or how to turn properly. She has been learning Savoy. Do you think this attitude is common? (I don't agree with this attitude btw)

[Spitfire]

Actually my student knew "side, side rock step", but not "triple, triple rock step". She said they taught 1x rhythm swing and then went strait into Lindy.

They also teach that one as well; in fact more so then triple step. Many people believe ECS to refer to both.

Doesn't it? If not what do you call it?

Single time; that's the name generally used out here for that step and East Coast for triple time. No one here has ever used the term "single time ECS."

[jdavidb]

It might have been ecs's chasse triple steps that threw her off. I don't ever see lindy hop couples chasse triple steps in the ecs manor.

It is odd though that she did swivels for back rock leads. I thought all lindy hop followers were taught exactly how the different directional step-steps were led.

The choreographed back rock in ecs is one thing I do not like about it. Plus, ecs's 6-count basic is backwards to 6-count lindy hop patterns. It can be very confusing. I'm all for going ahead with learning lindy hop with no prior ecs experience. ECS instills a few habits which can make learning lindy hop feel like breaking one's spirit.

[d nice]

Yes, she is now doing much better following the lead for the rock step in the open position. At the venue she visits, ECS is at least 50%. She told she is doing much better now at the club. She seems to have learned almost entirely 8-count steps previously.

I've also introduced her to salsa, and she went to the club for the first time, and had a great time. When I started working on salsa, I did a lot of work on making her turns cleaner and getting her to have a better posture. She made the comment (jokingly) that Lindy Hoppers don't really have to learn technique, posture or how to turn properly. She has been learning Savoy. Do you think this attitude is common? (I don't agree with this attitude btw)

THe fact she had only learned 8-count steps shows that her lindy education has not been very good. Lindy Hop is as much about technique as any other dance... meaning that the teacher puts in how much they want and the student takes out how much they want. Moves, regardless of the dance don't work without technique.

Lindy Hop has a different posture and different "rules" or expectations about lead/follow (very noticable on turns), but again her lindy education, one way or another, has been lacking. The "style" she is learning is immaterial... it has nothing to do with how much technique she gains, the technique itself is the same between the various styles... what they choose to do with the technique is what causes the differences in style.

[DWise1]

The choreographed back rock in ecs is one thing I do not like about it. Plus, ecs's 6-count basic is backwards to 6-count lindy hop patterns. It can be very confusing. I'm all for going ahead with learning lindy hop with no prior ecs experience. ECS instills a few habits which can make learning lindy hop feel like breaking one's spirit.
I think that a lot of that has to do with how we were taught.

Both our first ECS instruction (single-step at that) and my Lindy instruction -- both from very different teachers and "schools" -- taught us to start with the rock step. So I don't see how the two 6-count could be consdered backwards from each other. Furthermore, in WCS my part (at least) in the 6-count steps also starts with the rock step.

I have seen and heard that other teachers will start you with two triple steps (I also just saw it in the beginning of "Assassination Tango"). I've only been through one pre-dance lesson where that was done, but then all the subsequent moves appeared to start with the rock step. That started me wondering whether that initial pair of triple steps isn't just a starter step, similar to what we're taught in WCS (OTOH, our Lindy teacher has us slow-dance the song's intro in order to "ramp up").

[jdavidb]

I would have preferred to have learned ecs as a narrowed lindy hop with the step step always being 1 and 2. Ecs works even if ya count it with letters, of course. But, ya reach a point where there is no more counting anyway.