Leading small... Its hard!

[Ampster]

In Seattle, there are times when our milongas get jam packed. This forces one to dance small. REALLY small without stopping and still moving in the line of dance.

IMHO, I find leading very small to be very hard. Why? It takes so much control and your lead so subtle, but needs to be so clear that your follow can, well, follow. You can't cheat. Its really very beautiful if you can make it work.

To illustrate, look at the video of Detlef Engel and Melina Sedo below. The first part is a milonga, danced sooo small. BTW, they teach only social dance. Tangos you would really use.

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[bastet]

that was lovely. clean and simple.

[kieronneedscake]

Small is beautiful. I like dancing in the queue for food at my local tea dance :)

I find it stays relatively easy as long as I don't allow everything to grind to a halt. Then hesitation becomes a problem, and I lose the sensitivity of connection.

[Zoopsia59]

Its really very beautiful if you can make it work.


Its really beautiful to follow also. Its an incredible feeling to be led well this way. Despite the crowd, I feel more alone with my partner than I would in a less crowded space doing bigger movements.

I wish more guys would learn to lead like this. Maybe if we tell them its a great way to woo women?

[Angel HI]

Ditto Zoops' post...every word. I remember taking a re-fresher (yeah, even we who are often considered maestros still do that), from Firpo on this style. Very difficult. Loved every minute of it.

[Heather2007]

I wish more guys would learn to lead like this. Maybe if we tell them its a great way to woo women?

:razz: I get an "aaaaaaah" when I follow but a (even better) blissful "in the etheric zone" feeling when I lead it.

[bastet]

Its really beautiful to follow also. Its an incredible feeling to be led well this way. Despite the crowd, I feel more alone with my partner than I would in a less crowded space doing bigger movements.

I wish more guys would learn to lead like this. Maybe if we tell them its a great way to woo women?

So agree on this....that pretty much captures my opinion of how it feels to follow this way. I know I've said before I like it, but the video does a really nice job of capturing the visual idea of it.

[dchester]

In Seattle, there are times when our milongas get jam packed. This forces one to dance small. REALLY small without stopping and still moving in the line of dance.

IMHO, I find leading very small to be very hard. Why? It takes so much control and your lead so subtle, but needs to be so clear that your follow can, well, follow. You can't cheat. Its really very beautiful if you can make it work.

To illustrate, look at the video of Detlef Engel and Melina Sedo below. The first part is a milonga, danced sooo small. BTW, they teach only social dance. Tangos you would really use.
I agree with Ampster that it is hard to lead small (thus I try to avoid it). However at times it is necessary. I'm likely not at the point where I can make it look beautiful.

Now for my "dog house" comment: While a lot of this stuff comes down to personal preference, I found that milonga to be mostly a snoozefest (although it got better towards the end). I'm in no way trying to dismiss their talent, but rather I would have no desire to try and do a milonga like they did in that video.

I will say that I liked the tango they did afterwards a lot better. I thought that dance matched the mood of the music a lot better than in the milonga.

[Steve Pastor]

It has been said that we dance with three things: the music, our partner, and all of the other couples on the floor.
I know people who dance small no matter what.
Lots of energy the music, milonga or otherwise? They plod along.
Lots of room on the floor? They plod along barely moving.
etc

If there is room, and there is energy in the music, I like to move. (sometimes this distresses some of my shorter partners, who end up being less and less frequent partners).
If the floor is crowded, I consider it a challenge; and I will dance small. This is always best with women who know how to keep it small. It's always embarressing to think you know how much room there is behind your partner, lead a small movement, and have her kick or touch another couple, however gently.
So, part of this is, if you want to dance small, look for "small music", crowded conditions, and be able to "dance small".
Every AT teacher should have one or more classes devoted to this subject, and should make "dancing small" and appropriately a part of regular instruction.
Yeah, it's hard. But it gets easier the more you do it. And it's great with someone who gets it. Just like most everything else, you can't do it by yourself (although you can practice by yourself!)
Oh, and try to find a crowded practica to practice with a partner.

[Zoopsia59]

Now for my "dog house" comment: While a lot of this stuff comes down to personal preference, I found that milonga to be mostly a snoozefest (although it got better towards the end). I'm in no way trying to dismiss their talent, but rather I would have no desire to try and do a milonga like they did in that video. .

I'm not sure this qualifies as a "doghouse" comment. I think it just prooves the point that dancing like this is for you and your partner, not for an audience.

Maybe that's why followers like it... it indicates that the leader is trying to connect with her as his primary goal, rather than show off for other dancers or spectators.

No one who is trying to show off dances this way.

(I'm not saying you are trying to show off when you dance, dchester... I'm saying that this kind of social dancing doesn't have quite the same performance interest for someone watching unless they are really into studying this style of tango personally)

[Zoopsia59]

If there is room, and there is energy in the music, I like to move. (sometimes this distresses some of my shorter partners, who end up being less and less frequent partners)..

I pretty much agree with your post, but I find this sentence slightly disturbing. It indicates to me that you aren't dancing for your partner at all even though you list it as one of the 3 things we are dancing for.

Unless you are very tall, there's no reason why you can't make your steps accomodate a shorter woman's leg length without it totally compromising your own style or movement. I mean, really, how big of a height difference are we talking about here?

I dance sometimes with a tall guy who REALLY moves. You have to really reach to keep up with him and I'm of average height. (I'd say he's about 6'-3"?) But he doesn't take such large steps with the 5' women. He knows I can keep up, so he goes for it. He doesn't figure that he just won't dance with anyone who is too short to keep up with his extremely long stride.

Now there are plenty of followers who just don't know how to really reach or how to stay in control when they take long steps. That's different. But there is a limit to how far someone can reach or how much effort it takes based on the length of the leg. (and paradoxically, the higher the heel, the shorter a follower's reach is, especially forward) Its really annoying as a follower to have a leader who completely ignores the obvious physiology. In fact, in every ballroom class I ever took, the men were cautioned that the follower probably cannot take as big a step as he can.

Though I suppose if you want to just not dance with anyone who physically can't take steps long enough for your style, that's your choice... it seems kinda limiting to me, and not at all in the vein of what a tango is supposed to be about, which is BOTH of you.

[mshedgehog]

To illustrate, look at the video of Detlef Engel and Melina Sedo below. The first part is a milonga, danced sooo small. BTW, they teach only social dance. Tangos you would really use.

I found both parts of that really fascinating instructional demos. They were jam-packed with useful material for the social dancer. I see the second one was at your 'home' milonga - was this the demonstration at the end of a class? I'd assume the milonga was, as they were obviously demonstrating some specific points.

I entirely see what's meant about it being snoozy to watch, but watching it a second time, it's so inspiring. It's not the kind of material people usually bother to demonstrate like this - probably because it is dull to watch, and pretty much incomprehensible without special knowledge. I really appreciate this couple having taken the trouble and allowed someone to put it on video. It's not what you'd do for a clueless audience, is it?

I noticed 00:42; his heels staying together. You could learn so much by watching from there to 01:10 and just trying to work out how to reproduce it. It's difficult for the leader, and requires quite no small skill in the follower, too.

[Steve Pastor]

Steve
"If there is room, and there is energy in the music, I like to move. (sometimes this distresses some of my shorter partners, who end up being less and less frequent partners)."
Zoops
"I pretty much agree with your post, but I find this sentence slightly disturbing. It indicates to me that you aren't dancing for your partner at all even though you list it as one of the 3 things we are dancing for."

Yes, indeed. I wrote that I am dancing WITH her.
I did not write that I am dancing FOR her.
That is a not too subtle difference.

If any of these women would mention to me that my steps were too large,
OR if they knew how to communicate to me non verbally that they didn't want to take big steps or dance with energy,
OR if they only turned me down when the music had energy, etc, etc....
If all I have to go on is the fact that I'm turned down once or twice, or someone avoids eye contact with me, I dance with that person less and dance more with the ones who seem to enjoy dancing with me, for whatever reason.

[Zoopsia59]

If all I have to go on is the fact that I'm turned down once or twice, or someone avoids eye contact with me, I dance with that person less and dance more with the ones who seem to enjoy dancing with me, for whatever reason.

Oh I totally misunderstood... I thought you were saying that YOU were choosing not to dance with these people anymore because you like to move and they get distressed when they can't keep up because they are too short for what you are leading.

Sorry... my mistake.

[Steve Pastor]

Hakuna matata!

Oh, I guess I should use my limited Spanish here.

No problema!

[Ampster]

I found both parts of that really fascinating instructional demos. They were jam-packed with useful material for the social dancer. I see the second one was at your 'home' milonga - was this the demonstration at the end of a class? I'd assume the milonga was, as they were obviously demonstrating some specific points.

Yes, its in one of my home milongas which is Dance Underground. This was a demo during the announcements section of the evening at Dance Underground.

The first one was in La Garua. My favourite, and the one you missed.



I entirely see what's meant about it being snoozy to watch, but watching it a second time, it's so inspiring. It's not the kind of material people usually bother to demonstrate like this - probably because it is dull to watch, and pretty much incomprehensible without special knowledge. I really appreciate this couple having taken the trouble and allowed someone to put it on video. It's not what you'd do for a clueless audience, is it?

The first time I saw them dance, I called them boring. Then I payed attention when I saw them dance this way during the milonga. It made me see their methods in a totally different light. It was beautiful to behold.

It was very courageous of them to demo their style. Because, for the clueless, uninitiated, newbie learner, their performance is nothing unless you know what to look for.

For the experienced, you start to see very small and subtle weight changes, twitches and impulses, and miniscule steps that are actually leads. In a packed floor where you are only able to dance in a space barely bigger than the both of you in an embrace, it turns into a wonderfully magical thing.

[Steve Pastor]

Ampster, you're making me smile. Again, welcome to the club!

[Peaches]

I finally got the chance to watch the video (well, at least the first half)...

WOW. OMG, beautiful. (OMG, "beautiful" is a tricky word to type when tipsy!) That was incredible. Wow...wow...thank you for posting that. Such an incredible example of real, social milonga.

I love dancing like that...with the right leader. It's too bad that so many leaders don't have nearly that much musicality.

Three things that really stood out for me that I loved:
1) @ ~ 1:30: the little points that he did and lead
2) @ ~ 1:58: the way he danced in double time while leading her single time (for lack of a better way to describe it)--I've just a weakness for that sort of timing play
3) @ ~ 2:19: the way he stopped and just stood there--I don't know why, but I really liked that use of the lack of movement...maybe just a nice counterpoint to the rest of the dance

It's too bad they're both wearing all black--I'd have like to been able to get a clearer picture of her body and how she moves when she walks...

Edit to add:
OK, now I've watched the tango part. I didn't care for it nearly as much. I'd already been wowed by their mastery of small movement (which is to say, I'm not knocking them for the small, social style--I completely understand and can appreciate it)...but I didn't see (which isn't to say it wasn't there--maybe she felt it, but I couldn't see it) a change in the movement style that correlated to the music. It all had the same measured, smooth feeling to it for me. No staccato, no "force," no...dynamic. Like I said...it doesn't mean it wasn't actually there, but it just didn't show up to me. It was too...even...for my tastes.

[bafonso]

My favourite way to dance. Can't do it with everybody though. I love crowded milongas because it seems to be the only way some people slow down from their formula 1 tango...

[newbie]

If there is room, and there is energy in the music, I like to move. (sometimes this distresses some of my shorter partners, who end up being less and less frequent partners).


When the partner is too short to follow my large steps then I make my large steps around her, this way she's in the inner circle and she can follow with small steps.

[bafonso]

When the partner is too short to follow my large steps then I make my large steps around her, this way she's in the inner circle and she can follow with small steps.

A great follower is able to adapt to your big steps but why not just take smaller steps?

[Zoopsia59]

formula 1 tango...

:applause:

[Ampster]

I love crowded milongas because it seems to be the only way some people slow down from their formula 1 tango...


Over the years, I've learned that you don't need a packed club to dance small and slow. As the leader, you are the one making the call to the size of your floor craft. IMHO, if the mood and music is right, dance small if the opportunity presents itself.


As for the formula 1 tango dancers... *Cough* I used to be one of these when I was first starting out (Not good :shock:). I have since realized the absurness of this folly.

[bafonso]

Over the years, I've learned that you don't need a packed club to dance small and slow. As the leader, you are the one making the call to the size of your floor craft. IMHO, if the mood and music is right, dance small if the opportunity presents itself.


As for the formula 1 tango dancers... *Cough* I used to be one of these when I was first starting out (Not good :shock:). I have since realized the absurness of this folly.

Hey Ampster,

Yes, no one needs a packed club to dance small and slow. :-) But, that forces me to go to either to the inside lane or the center. Otherwise, I will be disrespectful of others if they're all doing formula 1 tango and holding up traffic :) I guess I said I love crowded because it forces everyone to dance smaller and more musical, creating a common shared experience. I find that very rewarding :)

I guess there are moments and parts of songs where doing formula 1 is cool and fits in. I tend to prefer small and subtle.

My favorite milonga in boston is the one with the smallest floor space.

[newbie]

A great follower is able to adapt to your big steps but why not just take smaller steps?

Because the very idea of putting her in the inner circle is to allow me to take big steps. I'm leading small but I'm taking big.

[bafonso]

Because the very idea of putting her in the inner circle is to allow me to take big steps. I'm leading small but I'm taking big.

I don't get it... you're taking steps around the follower instead of straight ahead?

[newbie]

I don't get it... you're taking steps around the follower instead of straight ahead?

Yes. Usually CCW

[Zoopsia59]

I don't get it... you're taking steps around the follower instead of straight ahead?

I got the impression he's talking about doing a molinete around the follower (as opposed to having the follower do it around him) Perfectly legitimate move.

[Zoopsia59]

ccw

Ccw?

[Ampster]

Originally Posted by newbie
ccwCcw?

Concealed Carry Weapon?
:uplaugh:

I couldn't resist. I'll shutup now... bwahahahaha

[Zoopsia59]

Concealed Carry Weapon?
:uplaugh:

I couldn't resist. I'll shutup now... bwahahahaha

Criminally complicated walking?

[bordertangoman]

Ccw?

Clever Country & Western

[Angel HI]

CCW...Counter Clockwise. Perhaps, he was speaking of molinete, and perhaps the basic caminada (outside, inside, inside).

[Zoopsia59]

CCW...Counter Clockwise. .


:doh:

Duh...

[Ampster]

CCW...Counter Clockwise...

AHA! I knew that. I was seeing if you did too... :rolleyes: :doh: *chuckles*
Okidoki, I'm gonna go hide in a corner.

[Steve Pastor]

And here I thought you guys were just one of your funny tangents!

[Ampster]

And here I thought you guys were just one of your funny tangents!

What can I say? I am but human, and have my flaws... :bouncy:

(P.S. I still think Concealed Carry Weapon was cooler!)

[bastet]

And here I thought you guys were just one of your funny tangents!


me too! :p

[Zoopsia59]

And here I thought you guys were just one of your funny tangents!

Hey, I can multitask. I can be dense and funny and go off on a tangent all at the same time.