Enhance your dance...Make it your own [Archive]

Ampster

10-20-2008, 07:08 PM

So this last weekend, I once again had the opportunity to try out my newly found "Dancing small" (http://dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=613884&postcount=1) technique. It seemed to work great, and all my parents seemed to like it. I did have to mix it up with the other stuff that I like to do. Otherwise it gets boring all on it's own.

As an evolutionary process, it's one thing to be able to do something you learned. It is (IMHO) another thing to make it "Your own." I.e. Assimilate it into your repertoire, and be able to utilize it seamlessly.

Why assimilate? It keeps things fresh. It makes for more interesting delivery and musical interpretation. It makes for a memorable dance experience. It's when you ask someone, and they describe you by the way you dance. It helps build an identity. I believe that in AT, one should have their own memorable dance persona, and not just be a "step and pattern copy cat."

My first AT teacher once said,

"You need to make your dance your own. I see too many people trying to be like their heros; a Gavito (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDhXTW2FlN8), a Fabian (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7kabcQy-gU), a Frumboli (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uinWGA64dhI), or even a Miriam (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ5UEJVT9W0)... It's a shame that they limit themselves so much by being satisfied by just copying moves. The experts started just like you, and learned a lot of this stuff from others and made it their own. They developed into what you see. You should do the same."

Zoopsia59

10-20-2008, 08:45 PM

all my parents seemed to like it. "

How many do you have?

(giggle);)

Ampster

10-20-2008, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by Ampster
all my parents seemed to like it.
How many do you have?

(giggle);)

Oops, I meant, PARTNERS! At least the spelling was right...:rolleyes:
:uplaugh:

Thanks Zoops!

Heather2007

10-21-2008, 05:00 AM

How many do you have?

(giggle);)

You and me both - ha, ha, ha - then I thought, okay, that's explainable, his own, his wife's, his ex's ;)

Heather2007

10-21-2008, 05:23 AM

It's when you ask someone, and they describe you by the way you dance. It helps build an identity. I believe that in AT, one should have their own memorable dance persona, and not just be a "step and pattern copy cat."

My first AT teacher once said,

"You need to make your dance your own. I see too many people trying to be like their heros; a Gavito (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDhXTW2FlN8), a Fabian (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7kabcQy-gU), a Frumboli (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uinWGA64dhI), or even a Miriam (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ5UEJVT9W0)... It's a shame that they limit themselves so much by being satisfied by just copying moves. The experts started just like you, and learned a lot of this stuff from others and made it their own. They developed into what you see. You should do the same."

Aaaaahhhhh...yesssssss!! Blue bold: Hmmm...the breath of freshness wafting into the space of stale sameness. Your first teacher's words mirrors mine every time. Red bold: You are 110% correct (all, esp. those new to the dance take heed of Ampster's words). Copying is cloning. Cloning lacks originality. Orginality is what stands out from the crowd and makes for a creative piece of dancing. For you as well as your partner and of course the sitting public. Green bold: understandably when starting out one feels the need to feast upon the (Youtube) greats and retire to the lounge to practice what they've just seen, but over time one should be aiming to... well, I guess, I've already stated it on earlier posts. Thanks Amps. :rolleyes:

tangonuevo

10-21-2008, 12:32 PM

I know that this will sound like heresy to some, but it has helped me to develop my own dance. A little context so this doesn't come off as too outre. I have danced for over fifteen years and have many hundreds of hours of both group & private tango instruction under my belt, much of it in close embrace taught by a _very_ highly respected couple. I dance both very traditionally as well as incorporating all of the energy concepts and other aspects of nuevotango.

So here goes: My wife & I approximately weekly go out to a random bar with live music - ranging from jazz ala Coltrane to rock ala Metallica - and dance "tango" to whatever they are playing and in what ever floor space is available. This has forced me to learn to dance in much less space than even a "crowded" milonga allows while not slipping in the freshly spilled beer, getting stuck in last night's beer, or tripping on the rough concrete floor; how to dodge both queue sticks and Foosball handles while protecting my partner; how to dance in a crowd of boogie dancers with no comprehension of what I am doing nor slightest respect for "floorcraft"; and how to very clearly change whatever I am leading mid-way through the lead so some staggering drunk doesn't run into us. You get the idea.

The result of dancing "tango" entirely out of context and with all hell breaking loose around me is that I have learned to assimilate and make all of my steps entirely my own, and to dance and lead smoothly and clearly (according to my regular dance partners) no matter the circumstances. It has helped me move entirely out of the world of patterns and entirely into 100% improve. I dare you to do _any_ pattern in a crowd of drunk boogie dancers :-). I find the regular milongas a joy. While others are complaining about having to live in a moving 3' square, I am rejoicing that the floor is smooth and clean, the music is spectacular, my fellow dancers are generally respectful of the LOD, that I am not trying to squeeze into a 1' square, and that I actually do get to progress around the flooor!

Steve Pastor

10-21-2008, 02:00 PM

No heresy to me.
There for a while I had a partner would would do "close embrace" milonga with me at the country western place. I could get other women to dance it (but not in a close embrace) if I called it "one step".
One difference, though, is that I decided that I would rather dance at the cw place, and one AT practica, than at milongas, for a number of reasons. One of those reasons is that AT dancers often seem obliviuos to anything but themselves.
I for one would rather dance on a floor with drunken country western newbies than some of the people I experienced at milongas.
(Maybe things have changed in the few years that I stopped going to milongas, and especially "festivals".)
It's funny though, an AT partner finally showed up at the cw place and although I tried to make our waltz, for instance, feel like an AT vals, it just wasn't there.
It was funny when she realized I was trying to get her to do a molinete.
Haven't decided if it's the music, or what.

tangonuevo

10-22-2008, 11:07 AM

No heresy to me....etc.
Thank you for that. One thing that we do like about dancing outside of the milongas is that we are inevitably complemented by other dancers, while the world of AT such behavior - offering positive comments - would appear to be a little gauche. We in fact know from direct statements that there is even some measure of opprobrium that comes our way for having the audacity to dance tango steps to entirely inappropriate music. Oh well. Life's too short to deal with that kind of narrow minded cr@p.

Zoopsia59

10-22-2008, 12:44 PM

while the world of AT such behavior - offering positive comments - would appear to be a little gauche. .

I've met people in all walks of life who think less of you when you offer them sincere compliments for their efforts as though it somehow diminishes you if you acknowledge that someone else has done something you admire.

The thinking seems to be that saying something nice means you think the other is superior at whatever, therefore you must be inferior.

I've no idea what their problem is, but as far as I'm concerned, those people need therapy.

tangonuevo

10-22-2008, 01:34 PM

I've no idea what their problem is, but as far as I'm concerned, those people need therapy.

I AM OFF TOPIC

Zoopsia - They might indeed. I sometimes think that the AT culture in our local community is dominated by slightly insecure alpha-male teachers trying to attract & maintain students. They seem to use complements as a tool in their contest with the other alphas. Neither they nor their acolytes can compliment one outside the fold.

Ah, I grow cynical in my old age. I should quit carping and go dance!

Zoopsia59

10-22-2008, 02:08 PM

a tool in their contest with the other alphas. Neither they nor their acolytes can compliment one outside the fold.

Why is it that some tango communities exemplify the worst of what we hated most during high school?

tangonuevo

10-22-2008, 03:15 PM

Why is it that some tango communities exemplify the worst of what we hated most during high school?
Zoopsia -
You have just asked the $64 question and I have no answer. But wait! I think I hear D'Arienzo's version of Cambalache, you know, the one with Echague on vocals? Sounds like it is the first song in the next tanda. Would you care for a dance?? Let's work on assimilating some fun into our dance!

Zoopsia59

10-22-2008, 03:24 PM

Would you care for a dance?? Let's work on assimilating some fun into our dance!

I'm all yours!

Angel HI

10-23-2008, 01:53 AM

I'm all yours!

AH! http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/confused/confused0074.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=confused/confused0074.gif) You Cheat! http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/mad/mad0111.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=mad/mad0111.gif)

tangonuevo

10-23-2008, 10:15 AM

AH! http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/confused/confused0074.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=confused/confused0074.gif) You Cheat! http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/mad/mad0111.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=mad/mad0111.gif)
A little possessive are we? ;)
But I think this tanda is mine.

Zoopsia59

10-23-2008, 12:15 PM

AH! http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/confused/confused0074.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=confused/confused0074.gif) You Cheat! http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/mad/mad0111.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=mad/mad0111.gif)

Uh-oh... I knew I should have snuck around behind your back by using PM's!

Ampster

10-23-2008, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by Ampster http://dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=616473#post616473)
It's when you ask someone, and they describe you by the way you dance. It helps build an identity. I believe that in AT, one should have their own memorable dance persona, and not just be a "step and pattern copy cat."

My first AT teacher once said,

"You need to make your dance your own. I see too many people trying to be like their heros; a Gavito (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDhXTW2FlN8), a Fabian (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7kabcQy-gU), a Frumboli (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uinWGA64dhI), or even a Miriam (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ5UEJVT9W0)... It's a shame that they limit themselves so much by being satisfied by just copying moves. The experts started just like you, and learned a lot of this stuff from others and made it their own. They developed into what you see. You should do the same."
Aaaaahhhhh...yesssssss!! Blue bold: Hmmm...the breath of freshness wafting into the space of stale sameness. Your first teacher's words mirrors mine every time. Red bold: You are 110% correct (all, esp. those new to the dance take heed of Ampster's words). Copying is cloning. Cloning lacks originality. Orginality is what stands out from the crowd and makes for a creative piece of dancing. For you as well as your partner and of course the sitting public. Green bold: understandably when starting out one feels the need to feast upon the (Youtube) greats and retire to the lounge to practice what they've just seen, but over time one should be aiming to... well, I guess, I've already stated it on earlier posts. Thanks Amps. :rolleyes:

You're welcome. I'm flattered that you think so. :notworth:

Peaches

10-23-2008, 09:22 PM

Heather2007

10-24-2008, 04:58 AM

Crap.

Just when I've finally figured out where my "center" is and how to start using it, something else gets added to the To Do list. Now I've got to have personality and make my dancing my own?!?! Crap. I just want to follow without injuring my partner. I don't even know what "my own" or "my personality" would be...much less what to do with it. I dunno, I'm a freakin' follower...I just follow. Crap. Can someone find me a personality for my dancing, please???

"Ahh! Pressure!!!" (quote from South Park, btw.)

I counted just 3 "craps". Whew, I was getting worried there. Major. ;) As for making the dance your own: consider that notion as one would democratically. It's a *choice* thing. There! You see, the pressure thermometer already dropping. Ha, ha, ha.

dchester

10-24-2008, 08:59 AM

Crap.

Just when I've finally figured out where my "center" is and how to start using it, something else gets added to the To Do list. Now I've got to have personality and make my dancing my own?!?! Crap. I just want to follow without injuring my partner. I don't even know what "my own" or "my personality" would be...much less what to do with it. I dunno, I'm a freakin' follower...I just follow. Crap. Can someone find me a personality for my dancing, please???

"Ahh! Pressure!!!" (quote from South Park, btw.) On top of that, what if "my own" dance is lousy? Wouldn't I be better off copying someone who is good?

:confused:

Heather2007

10-24-2008, 09:17 AM

On top of that, what if "my own" dance is lousy? Wouldn't I be better off copying someone who is good?

:confused:

Okay, here's a question. You say what if your own dance is "lousy" why then should you assume that by copying a reputable dancer's moves that your dancing will feel, look as good as theirs? Take our own X-Factor (or I think its called American Idol across the pond) as an example. A very good singer can only do two things with a song that isn't theirs: (1) to sound as good as the original artist or (2) make the song their own. However, if their singing is "lousy" then they can only opt for number (2) but with an added (3). (3) turning a good song into a dreadful (sounding) one.

And so...Fruit cake isn't fruit cake unless made with fruit. That is true enough. But the icing? The icing always, always adds that final touch. But, remember, its totally up to you if you choose to add the icing or not. There are no must do's here. Just preferences in how it is followed or how it is lead and of course how it is felt. And yes, dare I say it how it is seen. C'est tout. :rolleyes:

newbie

10-24-2008, 09:37 AM

On top of that, what if "my own" dance is lousy? Wouldn't I be better off copying someone who is good?

:confused:

I once had a teacher who in her introductory class explained this "find your own dance" thing.
Each week afterwards I tried to convince her that keeping my head bent, looking at the feet, was my own dance but she did not buy it.
I don't think either that you can completely build your own style, you'll always dance more or less the way your teacher dances, but the choice of the teacher is your own.

Heather2007

10-24-2008, 10:00 AM

I once had a teacher who in her introductory class explained this "find your own dance" thing.
Each week afterwards I tried to convince her that keeping my head bent, looking at the feet, was my own dance but she did not buy it.
I don't think either that you can completely build your own style, you'll always dance more or less the way your teacher dances, but the choice of the teacher is your own.

Disagree. My dancing has been described as "ugly". My teacher was never, ever ugly. She was as beautiful as a dove and moved like a swan. As an ex-contemporary jazz ballet dancer, I can do "swan", I can teach "swan" and I do teach "swan". But Heather's no swan. More a cross between a moody cat, and a hippychick clown on speed. And that is what shows in my dancing. I don't leave home without my personality. I'm on the train with it, I'm at the desk with it, I'm in the shops with it, I'm in the gym with it and yep, [surprise, surprise] I even dance with it.

dchester

10-24-2008, 10:46 AM

On top of that, what if "my own" dance is lousy? Wouldn't I be better off copying someone who is good?

:confused:
OK, no one got the joke (I guess I'll keep my day job).

Now for a serious post, I try to copy lots of different things from different people, but never everything that someone does. On top of that, I'm not good enough to exactly copy anything. Sometimes I'll intentionally modify some aspect of something I'm copying, and other times I just can't do it the same way. In any case it becomes my own "style" (whether intentionally or not).

(unfortunately there are days when my own style just isn't all that good)

Peaches

10-24-2008, 10:48 AM

Zoopsia59

10-24-2008, 11:03 AM

Each week afterwards I tried to convince her that keeping my head bent, looking at the feet, was my own dance but she did not buy it.

LOL... Or as one teacher put it to me:

"Bad technique is not a 'style' ".

Zoopsia59

10-24-2008, 11:17 AM

On top of that, what if "my own" dance is lousy? Wouldn't I be better off copying someone who is good?

:confused:

But you can't... Even if you are trying, you won't look like someone else. You can take what you think is good about their dancing and try to emulate it, but it still isn't going to look like the other person doing it. Its going to look like YOU doing it. I think people end up dancing some sort of style of their own whether or not they are even conscious of it.

Zoopsia59

10-24-2008, 11:19 AM

I'm not good enough to exactly copy anything. )

And if you were good enough to exactly copy, you would be so good that you wouldn't be.

Zoopsia59

10-24-2008, 11:19 AM

OK, no one got the joke (I guess I'll keep my day job).)

Maybe a wink instead of the questioning smiley would have made that more clear?

Zoopsia59

10-24-2008, 11:21 AM

I'm still just envious that y'all have something you could consider your own style or personality while dancing.

I'm still trying to find a personality for myself...besides the D-F personality of "crotchety" that I seem to have developed for myself.

Peaches, I don't know you, but from what I know on this forum, I think its highly improbable that you don't dance with any personality!:friend:

newbie

10-24-2008, 11:52 AM

Disagree. My dancing has been described as "ugly". My teacher was never, ever ugly. She was as beautiful as a dove and moved like a swan. As an ex-contemporary jazz ballet dancer, I can do "swan", I can teach "swan" and I do teach "swan". But Heather's no swan. More a cross between a moody cat, and a hippychick clown on speed. And that is what shows in my dancing. I don't leave home without my personality. I'm on the train with it, I'm at the desk with it, I'm in the shops with it, I'm in the gym with it and yep, [surprise, surprise] I even dance with it.

Go to some other teachers and I bet they can guess you took classes with the swan.
More over, ugly and swan is not antinomic, there is a child tale about this.

Angel HI

10-24-2008, 03:52 PM

Just when I've finally figured out where my "center" is and how to start using it, ....Now I've got to have personality and make my dancing my own

But Heather's... More a cross between a moody cat, and a hippychick clown on speed.

ROFL * You guys are cracking me up. and, I would doubt seriously that either of you have such problems.

Angel HI

10-24-2008, 04:04 PM

On top of that, what if "my own" dance is lousy? Wouldn't I be better off copying someone who is good?

Just copying someone else isn't really the point. We expect a learner to have to build/improve technical skills. Ths is not something that one can just copy; it requires serious teaching, and serious study, and serious development. During this process, one can --should-- find someone to emulate as far as style, presentation, desired look, etc. What inevitably happens last is that one develops a style and personality of one's own.

bastet

10-24-2008, 04:16 PM

Just copying someone else isn't really the point. We expect a learner to have to build/improve technical skills. Ths is not something that one can just copy; it requires serious teaching, and serious study, and serious development. During this process, one can --should-- find someone to emulate as far as style, presentation, desired look, etc. What inevitably happens last is that one develops a style and personality of one's own.

Exactly- even if you start out by emulating, your own understanding and personal style develop through it.

Lot's of things work that way, especially in the more creative areas. When I took art classes in college, one of the things teachers would have you do is actively emulate a certain style (one that you thought was totally different from how you worked), then let the effects of it trickle in to your usual MO and preferences.

tangonuevo

10-24-2008, 04:39 PM

Just copying someone else isn't really the point. ... What inevitably happens last is that one develops a style and personality of one's own.
What helped me was dancing alone in my living room. It allowed me to try on styles, flavors and attitudes with no one watching. It let me explore aspects of musicality without simultaneously worrying that my partner will think I'm a serious dork. It let me ignore steps, patterns, parallel/cross systems etc. and focus on how the dance felt.

The result is that I did eventually develop my own style/personality that feels comfortable in my body, and it is a personality that I don't think I would have even explored were I always under the pressure of leading and otherwise caring for my follow.

Angel HI

10-24-2008, 04:45 PM

What helped me was dancing alone in my living room. The result is that I did eventually develop my own style/personality ....

Oh, the evil sneers I receive when I tell my people to dance alone, and oh, the many hours that have I. Though, I understand what you are saying, I believe that dancign alone, however, will do more to build a superb technical base moreso than style/personality. These must be shared/danced w/ a partner since the objective is to display a partnership rather than one outstyling or mismatching the other.

Knowing that we all develop a signature style, we will ultimately have as many styles/personalities as we have partners.

Heather2007

10-27-2008, 06:11 AM

I think people end up dancing some sort of style of their own whether or not they are even conscious of it.

I'm still just envious that y'all have something you could consider your own style or personality while dancing.

Zoops is absolutely right. And if I may add to that: the more flamboyant, open, creatively "out there" the dance is felt or perceived then yes, the more it will then come across as original - BUT - that doens't mean to say that one who dances less so, no. One's "own" comes in varying speeds, creativity and subtleities. Those who have been dancing for a year or more and still striving hard to emulate, copy, picture-perfect other dancers whom they consider worthy to clone (note: here I speak more of Leaders from a Follower's dance of view), being with them is more like a technical procedure rather than a soulful experience.

Heather2007

10-27-2008, 06:21 AM

Go to some other teachers and I bet they can guess you took classes with the swan.
More over, ugly and swan is not antinomic, there is a child tale about this.

Aaaaahhh - me, the Ugly Swan:together: (But, but, but...nah! I truly do not dance like Jen - she is beautiful with a capital b. Rather, I'd be the Ug Sibling that turned the Pumpkin into a WMD. Believe:twisted::D....and you have me thinking now: Truthfully, I don't think I've ever been asked who it was that taught me or where it is I learned to dance. Hmm. Interesting).

Heather2007

10-27-2008, 06:55 AM

ROFL * You guys are cracking me up. and, I would doubt seriously that either of you have such problems.

Really. There is no fishing for compliments going on here. Just bare hard facts. Here's an example of my Personality. I went to a funeral last Thursday of a dear, dear (equally demented humoured). Our car pulled up at the Crematorium, I opened the car, leaped out, arms held aloft I shouted - "I've arrived. Thank God Almighty I've arrived". My friends hoisted me back quickly and we all ended up doubling over in laughter. That's me. That's my personality. Crematoriums are a severe place and severe places demand serious measures. Not unlike the Argentine Tango - n'est pas?:rolleyes:

Ampster

10-27-2008, 01:48 PM

Went to several milongas over the weekend. A few friends of mine were watching the floor, and a curious thing happened. As we watched, there were several couples whom you could tell that they came from this teacher (and that teacher) because they all did the same thing, exactly the same way. They were good at it.

Then there were other couples who did the exact same thing, but their movements had a certain "personal signature" to them, despite the fact that you could tell from whom they learned from.

We all agreed that these were the ones who progress to the point of making their dance "Their own."

Tango-ne

11-03-2008, 01:14 PM

Oh this is most interesting. I'm just a newcomer to Argentine Tango, but in the last year, my partner and I have taken classes with three different instructors and have participated in numerous workshops! All of the instructors are fabulous dancers! And all of them teach different styles. We found ourselves having to remold ourselves to match the lesson of the day. But there are elements that work for "us" (and in particular, me as the leader) that we can draw on from each instructor. And then there are elements that my partner likes in particular, so I can accommodate those elements when I dance with her so that the dance is enjoyable for her.

You know what it's like? It's like wanting to be a candy maker and trying to learn by going into a candy store! You sample this and that and you like those and some of these, but back in the kitchen, you really have to experiment and find your own combination that works. Then, one day, you can put your candy out in the store and someone else will see it and say "wow, not bad at all!"

But these are newbie thoughts. I feel like I'm writing in a diary. Years from now I may read this and cringe!

bafonso

11-03-2008, 01:26 PM

I've found that to find your dance you have to become a bit arrogant and let go of total teacher mentorship. Never forget every teacher is teaching what he/she believes is true, not necessarily what will make sense to you or you will end up finding that is truer. (grain of salt please)

Tango-ne

11-03-2008, 01:34 PM

We have had our share of trying too hard to incorporate each instructor's lessons! For instance, one instructor from Montreal advocated a totally loose lead hand, and said to imagine the follower as a leaf in your arms, just blow her a little this way and a little that way, gently, gently...So I did for a while. I was a shark in the water, looking to the horizon, water dripping from my elbows, strutting proudly but blowing a leaf around in front of me! Then, Sunday night tango lessons came locally, and I had the experience of getting to be the follower for a short lesson, and that instructor was totally opposite. I learned to grip the woman and swing her this way and that and bend her around and twist her over, and to step as if I were in a military drill. Ok ok, I'm joking. I loved his instruction and have learned the valuable lesson of being, as you put it, arogant! However, what a contrast to Montreal!

Ampster

11-03-2008, 03:57 PM