Magic Pill

[Black Sheep]

Swing Addicts,
The Magic Pill is a Teaching Method that will guide you through several Basic Lindy Steps, and will enable you to go dancing with a variety of partners well within a 20 minute period, IF you follow instructions faithfully. It will be helpful if you practice the 'LANZA SIX COUNT LINDY', Teaching Method with a partner. If none is available, hang onto the back support of a chair for a partner.
The Magic Pill will arrive July 4th, but please prepare yourselves in the two specifications below:
1) You should be able to identify the Down and Up Beats in Swing Music. Have a friend help you if need be.
2) I will assume you are or have heard the rhythmic count, 'TRIPLE , TRIPLE, ROCK STEP'.

There are only Two Rules involved in this method that you will have to follow faithfully for the Magic Pill to take
affect.

Black Sheep d.lanza@netzero.net
Only subscribers who Email me a YES vote will receive the MAGIC PILL. Non subscribers will have to buy it on the Black Market! Only two weeks left to vote!

[Black Sheep]

To Skeptics,
Simplified Swing is a Teaching Method which I am offering to whomever is interested with NO STRINGS attached! Why should I share a priceless secret to the general public. What's in it for me?
In the past few days 'YES' votes have been trickling in, but I notice not one vote is from a Southern California Instructor! And a few voters have expressed that they thought the Magic Pill is a 'HYP' like so many offerings on the internet. So let me give you an 'Overview' of what the 'LANZA SIX COUNT LINDY' (a teaching method) will accomplish
Last Friday June 13, I was at Hilary Alexander's closing, final Venue at Suzy Q. As usual;l I searched for a Wallflower to employ my Magic Pill method on. This night I found two young ladies sitting in a corner stuck to the wall. A few steps with one on the dance floor convinced me the lady was willing but had no idea what Swing was about.We returned to her friend and I escorted both to an empty area away from the crowd. Within six minutes I had them dancing on syncopated rhythm and following the lead on several basic steps and then l left them practicing holding onto the back of a chair. Within minutes they were asked to dancer and spent the rest of the evening dancing with a variety of men. When I bid them good evening, both Chee and Jamie were almost in tears with gratitude. And that made my day! What's in it for me?
I was a wall flower until I was 27 years old. My High School dances were very lonely for me and after a few dozen rejections, I never returned to that humiliating situation where no lady would dance with me because I was a club-foot exemplar. Ten years later when I became a dance teacher, it has become my personal commitment to help other wallflowers to share in the ecstatic experience of social dancing. What's in it for me?
Now allow me to explain the Overview of the Magic Pill. There is one factor of the Magic Pill method, that some dancers will have difficulty with if they are West Coast Swingers; The Lanza Six Count Lindy' is strict, authentic Savoy style Lindy. A complete beginner will learn to apply this dance literally within minutes, but the student with previous Swing experience will take much longer depending on how strong his WCS dance habits have become. When I changed from West Coast Swing, after four years of teaching it at my Hollywood Dance Club, to the authentic Lindy Hop, it took me about a year to reach an accomplished level in Savoy Lindy. And I had an authority on the Lindy Hop teaching me, Dean Collins. In the past three years, I have taught countless dozens of patrons at the vasrious Swing Venues using the Magic Pill teaching method. Occasionally, a dancer would feign being a beginner and the results were frustrating for me only to discover after I quit trying, that they were already taking private lessons in West Coast Swing.
In addition to the concise integral structure to the Magic Pill method, I will include some of the crucial techniques and also the most effective way to teach the Lanza Six Count Lindy, (a teaching method).

Your 'YES' vote places you automatically on my special list of Recipients for the Magic Pill, the complete ball of wax, gratis! NO VOTE, no Magic Pill!

Black Sheep d.lanza@nwtzero.net

[Black Sheep]

For Teachers Only,
The Magic Pill will be hard for some teachers to take, because it may suggests a competitive way of teaching. And it is an assumption that the new way is a criticism of the established way. But keep in mind that if my Magic Pill is capable of addicting new students to Swing within the first 15 minutes, you can be assured that the student will return. What a great interviewing tool for selling new students on an extensive dance course!
The Magic Pill Teaching Method has many other benefits to Professional Dance Teachers: It will, not only give a student a quick jump start, but there is in the method a consistency in the COUNTING that makes teaching much less complicated because the numbers are a rhythmic mechanical guide for any move or combination of moves that your imagination can conjure up.
A further consideration that will allay any qualms of competition or concerns of contradicting your own methods of teaching, is the simplicity and logic of this Magic Pill I offer with no strings attached. And if you don't see the benefit, just hit the delete button.
An additional value of this innovative teaching method is that it brings a much needed uniformity to teaching so that a student can move from one Venue Class on a Wednesday and feel comfortable in another Venue class on a Friday, instead of being subjected the confusion of different counting that is now being used.
The Magic Pill, will not turn out a finished dancer in 15 minutes, it will only bring students to the point of dancing several Swing steps with leads and follow in sync with the music. The Professional teacher will be needed to help student develop styling, teach them techniques, choreograph routines, introduce them to Shim Sham Steps, show them how to incorporate Charleston eight count jazz moves with the Swing; there is an infinite number of facets in dancing left for the PROFESSIONAL Dance Teacher to work on, once the new student is hooked with my Magic Pill that gets them started dancing within 15 minutes.

Black Sheep d.lanza@netzero.net

Email me your YES vote and I'll share my 50 years of teaching experience with you in this MAGIC PILL.

[Black Sheep]

THE MAGIC PILL PART I

Lindy Lovers,
For your July 4 holiday enjoyment I have decided to POST the Magic Pill
earlier than promised, so that those of you who know how, can get your
wallflower friends unglued and dancing Swing/Lindy within 15 minutes.

THE MAGIC PILL PART I
(The Magic Pill is a uniform, concise method of teaching the authentic Savoy
Lindy Hop that expedites the learning process in a simplified manner that
makes the rhythmic patterns UNFORGETTABLE when using the 'Lanza Six Count
Lindy' (LSCL) Guide Lines.)

Basic Lindy Steps are danced to Six Quarter Beats or Notes;
LSCL: ONE & TWO (2 quarter beats), THREE & FOUR (2 quarter beats), FIVE -
SIX (2 quarter beats)

'Lanza Six Count Lindy' (LSCL) Guide Lines.
LADY ON THE 1&2 ALWAYS travels or turns only on these 3 steps;
LADY ON THE 3&4 ALWAYS takes 3 steps in-place;
LADY ON THE 5-6 ALWAYS Rocks Back.

MAN ON THE 1&2 and 3&4 ALWAYS takes six steps in-place;
MAN ON THE 1&2 ALWAYS gives his leads.
MAN ON THE 5-6 ALWAYS Rocks in the direction of his leads;

PART II will give procedural method of using LSCL most effectively.
To receive your Part II, send in a YES vote to d.lanza@netzero.net :

Joe Lanza aka Black Sheep

[Black Sheep]

Magic Pill Addicts,
Those of you who have received Part I of the Magic Pill will
automatically receive Part II on August 4th, so you do not have to send me a
second 'YES'. Once your name is on tyhe MP list, you will receive all
subsequent teaching materials for using the MP, i.e., Procedural Methods for
getting the best results when using the MP, teaching techniques, and styling
pointers. Those of you who have not yet sent in your 'YES' for the Magic
Pill, Teaching Method for the authentic Savoy Lindy Hop, Send me a simple
'YES' and I will send you the 'Pill'!
Joe Lanza

[Black Sheep]

For Part II of the Magic Pill, procedural steps for the most effective way to use the 'Lanza Six Count Lindy' teaching method, Email your YES vote to d.lanza@net zero.net

For Teachers Only,
The Magic Pill will be hard for some teachers to take, because it may suggests a competitive way of teaching. And it is an assumption that the new way is a criticism of the established way. But keep in mind that if my Magic Pill is capable of addicting new students to Swing within the first 15 minutes, you can be assured that the student will return. What a great interviewing tool for selling new students on an extensive dance course!
The Magic Pill Teaching Method has many other benefits to Professional Dance Teachers: It will, not only give a student a quick jump start, but there is in the method a consistency in the COUNTING that makes teaching much less complicated because the numbers are a rhythmic mechanical guide for any move or combination of moves that your imagination can conjure up.
A further consideration that will allay any qualms of competition or concerns of contradicting your own methods of teaching, is the simplicity and logic of this Magic Pill I offer with no strings attached. And if you don't see the benefit, just hit the delete button.
An additional value of this innovative teaching method is that it brings a much needed uniformity to teaching so that a student can move from one Venue Class on a Wednesday and feel comfortable in another Venue class on a Friday, instead of being subjected the confusion of different counting that is now being used.
The Magic Pill, will not turn out a finished dancer in 15 minutes, it will only bring students to the point of dancing several Swing steps with leads and follow in sync with the music. The Professional teacher will be needed to help student develop styling, teach them techniques, choreograph routines, introduce them to Shim Sham Steps, show them how to incorporate Charleston eight count jazz moves with the Swing; there is an infinite number of facets in dancing left for the PROFESSIONAL Dance Teacher to work on, once the new student is hooked with my Magic Pill that gets them started dancing within 15 minutes.

Black Sheep

[uncle joe]

ANDIRA, I thought you would never ask.
In this Dance Forum's Archives, you can find the breakdown of the SIX COUNT LINDY teaching method and comparing and explaining the difference with the Eight Count.

The dance counts are for the same Swing/Lindy Hop dance only the Magic Pill is a teaching method instead of just a way of counting beats at random.

In the Dance Forum archives you will find 'THE MAGIC PILL' by Black Sheep which explains and compares both counts in detail.

The confusion comes when the 6 & 8 counts are intermixed by the instructors in the same dance lesson which is due to a lack of their understanding the 'SIX COUNT' teaching method.

Here is a brief comparison of the counts:

1980' counting tripple triple Rock Step;
1940-50's counting 123- 123- 12
Standard 8 ct. 123- 456- 78
Magic Pill 6 Ct 1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5-6

The Magic Pill is a more precise and consistant counting method for the Basic step Patterns (but varies slightly in the advanced Swing/Lindy Patterns) since the techniques and the rhythm are locked into each specific number, e.g.
< 1 & 2 are where the leads take place;
< 3 & 4 are in place movements;
< 5-6 are always back Rocks for Lady
< 5-6 the Man always Rocks i the direction he leads the Lady into;

The even numbers, &2, &4, -6 are subtly accented instead of the downbeats (the Odd Numbers) this is where the dancers gets the euphoric feeling of dancing in Syncopated rhythm with the music.

Uncle Joe aka Black Sheep
The Lindy Hop is America's cultural gift to the world.

[uncle joe]

RAWTOOTHBONE, SIX VS EIGHT
The Six Count Swing is a unique teaching method which uses a Six Count as the structure of the dance; the Six Count only came in use when I introduced it in my book, Lindy By Lanza in 1997.

When using the Eight Count, instructors are counting the number of steps in the Basic Swing step pattern, e.g. Triple (3), Triple (3) Rock Step (2) = 8 steps;

When using the Six Count, instructors are counting quarter beats and eighth beats, e. g.
1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5-6. = Six full quarter beats; the & 2, & 3 counts are eighth beats which can be counted `Slow Quick Quick, Slow QUICK QUICK, Slow Slow.

Each counting method is only using six Quarter beats, which is a bar & a half of music, which gives you the feeling that you are out of phrase on every other Basic Pattern.

To avoid getting distracted, just dance on the down beats, without trying to stay on phrase.

In this Dance Forum's* Archives, you can find the breakdown of my Magic Pill SIX COUNT LINDY teaching method, or check my Website < WWW.LINDYBYLANZA.COM >.

Uncle Joe aka Black Sheep
The Lindy Hop is America's cultural gift to the world.

[uncle joe]

On Jun 20, 2009, at 1:31 PM, Joe lanza wrote:

ANDIRA, I thought you would never ask.
In this Dance Forum's Archives, you can find the breakdown of the SIX COUNT LINDY teaching method and comparing and explaining the difference with the Eight Count.

The dance counts are for the same Swing/Lindy Hop dance only the Magic Pill is a teaching method instead of just a way of counting beats at random.

In the Dance Forum archives you will find 'THE MAGIC PILL' by Black Sheep which explains and compares both counts in detail.

The confusion comes when the 6 & 8 counts are intermixed by the instructors in the same dance lesson which is due to a lack of their understanding the 'SIX COUNT' teaching method.

Here is a brief comparison of the counts:

1980' counting tripple triple Rock Step;
1940-50's counting 123- 123- 12
Standard 8 ct. 123- 456- 78
Magic Pill 6 Ct 1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5-6

The Magic Pill is a more precise and consistant counting method for the Basic step Patterns (but varies slightly in the advanced Swing/Lindy Patterns) since the techniques and the rhythm are locked into each specific number, e.g.
< 1 & 2 are where the leads take place;
< 3 & 4 are in place movements;
< 5-6 are always back Rocks for Lady
< 5-6 the Man always Rocks i the direction he leads the Lady into;

The even numbers, &2, &4, -6 are subtly accented instead of the downbeats (the Odd Numbers) this is where the dancers gets the euphoric feeling of dancing in Syncopated rhythm with the music.

Uncle Joe aka Black Sheep
The Lindy Hop is America's cultural gift to the world.

[uncle joe]

SIX COUNT VS EIGHT COUNT
RAWTOTHEBONE, In March 2001 a book came out, 'Lindy by Lanza' where a unique Lindy Hop teaching method was first introduced by the author called the, 'Magic PILL'.

For the first time in known Swing history the Swing dances were broken down to a six count syncopated rhythm instead of the Eight count step patterns. The difference is that the Eight count is just a another method of counting STEPS like TRIPLE TRIPLE or 123, 123, 12 etc.
While the Six Count Lindy Hop is an actual complete compact teaching method with the syncopated rhythm built into the SIX counts along with the Cues for the leads and primary techniques of tension and rectangular directional control, all in the SIX Counts <1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5-6 >.

It is called Magic because the Six Count Lindy Hop teaches a beginner how to dance the basic steps well enough to follow or lead any stranger on the dance floor within 15 or 20 minutes of instruction using this SIX COUNT teaching method.

I spent a whole year testing and teaching Wall Flowers how to Swing dance at the various Swing venues in Southern California in the year 2000 before publishing the Magic Pill on my book. Before my book came out, all swing dancers including Frankie Manning admitted dancing Swing to eight counts.

Today many Swing teachers mix the Six counts with the Eight counts. which is confusing for novice Swing dancers. And it just takes a few moments to check the MAGIC PILL paradigm to know the difference between a count and a Compact Teaching Method.

The Magic Pill is in the very earliest archives of Dance Forums or you can log onto my Website and check the Menue, 'Strictly Swing' for a graphic display of the MAGIC PILL.

< WWW.LINDYBYLANZA.COM >
Uncle Joe, the instructors best friend.

[uncle joe]

Rawtothebone, EIGHT COUNT SWING VS SIX COUNT LINDY
The difference between 8 Count Swing and 6 Count is that in 8 count the instructor is counting the number steps in a step pattern;

In Six count Swing < 1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5-6 > the instructor is using the rhythmic Quarter Notes (beats) and Eight Notes (beats) to focus on rhythm.

The Six Count Lindy is a Teaching Method while the Eight Counts in Swing are similar to Triple Triple or i23, 123, 1-2 or 123, 456, 7-8. or any way of counting step patterns.

For more Detailed explanation see 'Magic Pill' in Dance Forum Archives.

Uncle Joe

[uncle joe]

SIX COUNT OR EIGHT COUNT IN SWING MUSIC
The Basic step in Swing only takes a bar and a half of music to execute; SIX QUARTER NOTES (BEATS).

The 4/4 time Swing music is built in phrases of two bars, four bars, eight bars, etc. so staying in phrase in regular dancing is a little confusing unless you have a dance routine built on two bar phrases, i.e. `.

In Swing music there is a predominant accent on the first Quarter Note (beat) of each bar of music which is a little more accented than the third Quarter note (beat); the second and third notes are unaccented in relation to the other two Notes.

With a little practice you can feel or hear the accented sound on the FIRST beat of each bar on the bass drum or on the bass guitar; hitting that first accented beat is the best way to start dancing.

And forget about phrasing because you will only be on phrase every third bar of music and off on the rest the other two bars.
Uncle Joe
A dancer's best friend.

[kayak]

... The Six Count Lindy is a Teaching Method while the Eight Counts in Swing are similar to Triple Triple or i23, 123, 1-2 or 123, 456, 7-8. or any way of counting step patterns.

Uncle Joe,
When I read your posts, I seem to only come up with 6 beat swing for each combo? What about all the 8 beat patterns? Maybe, I am just not understanding what you are posting?

[uncle joe]

Kayak,
After WW II, a new jazz dance became the dance craze in my home town NYC called the 'BIG APPLE; it consisted of several Eight count Jazz moves e.g. the Suzy Q, the Shorty George, Truckin-on-down, Struten, the Bug-a-loo, and several others; these Eight count jazz moves in the 1980's began to be used in Swing routines creatively, and as long as the Leader used smooth transition steps to stay with the flow of the rhythm the continuous euphoria of the dance was maintained.

The Charleston Kick from the 1920's is also used as an eight count step pattern in Swing routines in a variety of ways, e.g. side by side, behind your partner holding hands, or face to face.

When I returned to the swing scene in 1997 after a 32 year hiatus, I saw many dancers doing the Charleston Kick to Six counts which works OK, but the original Charleston Kick is an Eight count Step pattern with two Quarter beat pauses, the first Quarter beat pause is on the count of #3 and on the second pause is a Quarter beat held at the very end of the pattern for an Eight count pause; a much more rhythmic and stylish configuration.

So yes, you can mix Eight Count Steps in Swing, and it enriches the variety of dance patterns euphorically.
Uncle Joe
The dancer's best friend.
All rights reserved @ 2009 by Joe Lanza

[uncle joe]

EIGHT COUNT SWING VS SIX COUNT LINDY
The difference between 8 Count Swing and 6 Count is that in 8 count the instructor is counting the number steps in a step pattern;
ANDIRA,
In Six count Swing < 1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5-6 > the instructor is counting the rhythmic Quarter Notes (beats) and Eight Notes (beats) to focus on rhythm.

The Six Count Lindy is a Teaching Method while the Eight Counts in Swing are similar to Triple Triple or i23, 123, 1-2 or 123, 456, 7-8. or any way of counting step patterns.

HOWEVER, Six Counts < 1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5-6 > can be used interchangeably but it is confusing; It is logical to just used one or the other.

For more Detailed explanation see 'Magic Pill' in Dance Forum Archives.

Uncle Joe

[kayak]

Rawtothebone, EIGHT COUNT SWING VS SIX COUNT LINDY
The difference between 8 Count Swing and 6 Count is that in 8 count the instructor is counting the number steps in a step pattern;

Thanks UJ,
I would just generally look at this statement differently. I would do the 8 count pattern normally as SS QQS SS QQS and the 6 count as SS QQS QQS. So 8 beat patterns would have 10 steps and 6 beat patterns would have 8 steps. Is that kind of what you were describing?

[uncle joe]

Kayak, We are using different dictionaries:
You are designating the Basic Swing Step pattern as a ten step Eight Quarter note duration; SS QQS SS QQS; (10 STEPS to an 8 QUARTER NOTE DURATION);

I am talking about a Basic Swing Step which has only a Six Quarter Note Duration; SQQ, SQQ SS (8 STEPS to A SIX QUARTER NOTE DURATION).

Unless we use the same terminology for a Basic Swing Step, our communication on this subject will only get confusing.

Whether you use 8ct, 6ct, 10ct the Basic Triple Swing Step consists of Eight Steps to the Duration of Six Quarter Beats.

If the teacher or dancer wants to count eight steps or Count the Six Quarter Notes that's fine but mixing the counts obviously is confusing or Rawtothebne would never have started this thread.

I suggest you check the Magic Pill in the Dance Forum's Archives to clarify my use of the Six Count Lindy teaching method (it's only one page long) Vs the Eight count Step WCS.

Baffled but willing to try answering the question whatever or wherever it got lost to.

Uncle Joe
A dancer's best friend

[uncle joe]

Apache, The Swing-out was originally called the Whip up until the 1960s. (Except in AM Studios)
There is a detailed breakdown of the Whip/Swingout in the Dance Forum archives under Magic Pill by Black Sheep.
It uses the 'Turn Rhythm' also called the 'Secondary Rhythm' which varies from the Basic Rhythm as explained below:

Basic Rhythm: 123, 123, 12 or < 1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5-6 > (6 Quarter notes)
Turn Rhythm: 123, 12 or < 1 & 2, 5-6 > only 4 Quarter notes to complete the Lady's circle around the man. Skipping the < 3 & 4 > count.

The problem usually is caused by doing the the Swing-out as a Basic Rhythm
pattern; <123, 123, 12 > which works using 6 Quarter notes to complete the Lady's circle around her partner, but lacks the Snap movement on the through out.

Uncle Joe aka Black Sheep
The dancer's best friend

[uncle joe]

This Thursday, the annual four day Swing celebration, "CAMP HOLLYWOOD" begins in LA..
Unfortunately, I am on crutches and will not be able to attend, but I am curious about the style of Swing classes and dancing that predominates during these four days mainly, how many instructors are still teaching WCS and how many instructors are using the SIX COUNT LINDY HOP method?

And you can always tell the difference if the Lady always Rocks Back and the Man always Rocks in the Direction of his Leads than they are dancing and teaching the Six Count Lindy Hop.

If the Lady walkas fwd on her 7-8 steps `(Rock Steps) she and her partner are doing the WCS style.

These clues are only indications of the differences, but in no way explain the complete additional various techniques used in the Six Beat Lindy Hop.

Question :
1) How many are doing the WCS Eight Step count Swing?
2) How Many are doing the Six Beat Rhythmic Lindy Hop ?
3) How many are Mixing the Eight Count Steps <Triple, Triple, 1 - 2> with the Six Beat Rhythmic Lindy Hop < 1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5-6 >?

ANSWER in approximate percentage; any guess will do.
Unce Joe
The dancer's best friend

[DWise1]

It's a Lindy event, not WCS. And although some ECS moves have been incorporated back into Lindy, it's not ECS either.

We don't do the ballroom thingee of starting with triples (though we can accommodate ballees who hadn't learned Lindy yet, except we have to fight the temptation to lead a swing-out). We start with the rock-step, during which the lady also rocks back. The six- and eight-count rhythms are the same as in WCS:
6-count: 1-2, 3&4, 5&6
8-count: 1-2, 3&4, 5-6, 7&8

Which is the same as Frankie Manning taught it and he dated back to the 1930's.

[uncle joe]

Frankie Manning first heard the words Eight count from the Stevens Sisters in Pasadena. Up until that time after the 1980's Frankie admitted that he never heard of Eight count.

The first time that Six Count Lindy was introduced in LA, or any other place that I know of, was in Dance Forum in 2003 under the title 'Magic Pill' by Black Sheep. Check the archives.

My book Lindy By Lanza, originally documented a unique "Teaching Method' which for the first time introduced 'Six Count Lindy' in March 2002. Before 2002 the term 'TRIPLE TRIPLE Rock Step' was used in teaching WCS.

Incidentally, try telling an ECS dancer that there's no difference between ECS or WCS. LOL.
ECS is the closest style to the Lindy Hop.

Uncle Joe aka Black Sheep aka Joe Lanza
The teacher's best friend

[DWise1]

Frankie Manning first heard the words Eight count from the Stevens Sisters in Pasadena. Up until that time after the 1980's Frankie admitted that he never heard of Eight count.

Granted. Theory comes later as we try to explain how something works. From what I've been taught, they communicated rhythms by speaking them in a form of scat. Counts came later.

The first time that Six Count Lindy was introduced in LA, or any other place that I know of, was in Dance Forum in 2003 under the title 'Magic Pill' by Black Sheep. Check the archives. That I'll do. In order to figure out what your terminology is supposed to mean.

BTW, I started Lindy in August 2002, which BTW predates 2003. That included both eight-count and six-count moves. And that instructor had been teaching those moves for nearly a decade ... again predating 2003.

Unless is your "Six Count Lindy" is something entirely different. In which case, why give it a confusing name?

Before 2002 the term 'TRIPLE TRIPLE Rock Step' was used in teaching WCS.

Similarly, I started WCS in 2001, which BTW also predates 2002. From a long-established teacher who had been teaching for over 20 years, which also rather predates your 2002. "Double, triple, triple".

Of course, it could very well be that ballroom teachers were teaching your 'TRIPLE TRIPLE Rock Step' , but then ballies tend to be off in their own special world anyway. Like their big concern with WCS is whether it's with a toe-lead or a heel-lead.

Incidentally, try telling an ECS dancer that there's no difference between ECS or WCS. LOL.
ECS is the closest style to the Lindy Hop.

I've danced all three. If people laugh in your face when you tell them that there's no difference between ECS and WCS, then that does not surprise me in the least.

Of course, if you have redefined the terms sufficiently to erase all differences between ECS and WCS, then what can we say? Except that the rest of the world doesn't use your own special redefinitions.

And convention has it that ECS is ballroom's simplification of Lindy, so one would expect it to be close to Lindy.

[uncle joe]

DWIS1,
There is one main misunderstanding that can clarify where I am coming from with the Six & Eight discussion:

My Magic Pill is NOT a new dance , it is not WCS or ECS or Ballroom Swing, it is a Teaching Method which is documented as, "The Magic Pill" in the Dance Forum Archives and in my book "Lindy by Lanza"; it is not based on, 'who taught me what when etc.' which comes under the category of "Here-say".

There is quite a difference in using numbers to count Swing configurations and setting up a whole teaching method for beginning Swig dancers on just one single 8 X 10 page where other Swing teaching methods often run into a book size explanation or a full hour video.

I emphatically stated in my Magic Pill, that this is a TEACHING METHOD.
And once you read the single page instructions you will also understand why using Eight counts and Six counts in the same lesson can be very confusing because Eight is counting steps and Six is counting rhythm which has some basic techniques built into the coded < 1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5-6 > which is not possible to apply when merely counting Eight steps or Tripling counts.

The Six Count Teaching Method will enable a wall flower to learn the Lindy Hop on a private 15-20 minute lesson, strictly following the instructions step by step to the level where the student can step out on the dance floor immediately after the lesson and lead or follow any fair to middling WCS or ECS Dancer.

I tested this Magic Pill method for over a year, at different Swing venues three and four times a week, in 2001 before I documented the Magic Pill in my book, "Lindy by Lanza" which most of the teachers in LA, England, Germany and Italy have copies of starting with Hillary Alexander of Camp Hollywood.

And as for WCS borrowing steps from ECS; steps DO NOT identify a dance; many dances have the same steps like Mambo and Salsa, Fox Trot and Waltz, Rumba and Bollero, WCS and ECS.

Steps are only configurations that are infinite, it is the RHYTHM, TECHNIQUES and STYLING that identify a dance and gives the performer a different unique euphoric experience.

Just imagine the Sensual Romantic feeling when dancing a Tango compared with the Rhythmic throbbing of a Bossa Nova, and you will clearly see that STEPS are not unique to any dance, and that is only one of the weakness of the Eight Step count WCS compared to my SIX note rhythmic Teaching method which is about techniques and syncopated rhythm and smooth transitions all included in the coded < 1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5-6 > in a 15-20 minute lesson.

Check the Dance Forum's archives before you respond and you'll realize we were talking about different subjects.
Whether or not you agree with my Six count Lindy teaching method or not, there it is, documented for posterity in hundreds of books copyrighted on March, 2002. And not just on 'Here-say".

Uncle Joe aka Black Sheep
The dancer's best friend
All rights reserved @ 2009 by joe lanza

[DWise1]

If you were only talking about some teaching method, then why didn't you say so from the start?

Though that still doesn't excuse your crazy claims, such as Camp Hollywood being where they teach West Coast Swing, whereas instead they teach Lindy and other dances of that era (eg, Charleston, Balboa, Shag) along with jazz dances (eg, Shim Sham, Big Apple, Trankydoo). Westie-landia it is not.

Or that "there's no difference between ECS or WCS". Sorry, but anyone who has danced both knows that there's a lot of difference betwee ECS and WCS. Even if your method exploits commonalities to remove most differences for the beginner, they are still two different dances.

Or that "Before 2002 the term 'TRIPLE TRIPLE Rock Step' was used in teaching WCS." I very clearly pointed out that for at least 25 years before 2002, that was not the case. OK, I allowed that maybe ballroom syllabi had that, but we must remember that ballies are off in their own world -- there's another recent thread in this section which briefly touched upon this. Sorry, but your claim is just plain bogus.

Which brings up how you just misrepresented what I had written:
it is not based on, 'who taught me what when etc.' which comes under the category of "Here-say".

I was clearly demonstrating that not only was I receiving pre-2002 instruction in both WCS and Lindy that was very clearly counter to your bogus claim, but they had been teaching it that way for upwards of 25 years! I wasn't playing any hear-say games nor name-dropping, but rather I was clearly demonstrating that your claim is just plain bogus. If you want to respond to that, then respond to it, but do not misrepresent what I wrote -- I have been subjected to such treatment from creationists for decades, so I have extremely little patience with such dishonest tactics.

Whether or not you agree with my Six count Lindy teaching method or not, there it is, documented for posterity in hundreds of books copyrighted on March, 2002. And not just on 'Here-say".

That was not at all the question, nor what I was disagreeing with. I was disagreeing with your blatantly bogus claim:
Before 2002 the term 'TRIPLE TRIPLE Rock Step' was used in teaching WCS.
To repeat myself, in 2001 I was very clearly taught WCS with "Double, Triple, Triple", never ever no stinkin' 'TRIPLE TRIPLE Rock Step'. And that teacher had been teaching it for 25 years. And "Double, Triple, Triple" has been used universally among all WCS teachers I've encountered since then and, again, most of them had been teaching since the 80's or even the 70's. And all WCS dancers I have encountered had all been taught "double, triple, triple" and most of them had learned long before your 2002, before which you claim that they had been learning 'TRIPLE TRIPLE Rock Step'.

Now, if you honestly and truly believe that until 2002 WCS had been taught with 'TRIPLE TRIPLE Rock Step', then you should identify where and when such a practice existed. And you should be able to recall such specific cases immediately, if your claim was based on actual knowledge.


Now this new one just bent my mind (my emphasis):
And once you read the single page instructions you will also understand why using Eight counts and Six counts in the same lesson can be very confusing because Eight is counting steps and Six is counting rhythm which has some basic techniques built into the coded < 1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5-6 > which is not possible to apply when merely counting Eight steps or Tripling counts.

Uh, we're counting the beats, not the steps. We have six-count moves and eight-count moves and 10- or 12-count moves because that's how many beats there are in the music -- they have different numbers of counts because some take longer to execute than others.

We never count the individual number of steps, but rather that's what the "&"'s are for:
6-count: <1-2 3&4 5&6> performed with eight steps, not just six.
8-count: <1-2 3&4 5-6 7&8> performed with ten steps, not just eight.
That's basic.

And I simply do not understand your repeated reference to "the coded < 1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5-6 >". Is that just simply a part of your method?

[uncle joe]

DWIS!,
You are accusing me of making many statements about teaching at Camp Hollywood that I never said nor even implied in any way.

I believe my explanation that the Magic PILL is a Teaching Method, negates all your statements as irrelevant since you were making statements that had no connection with my teaching method.

It might help you to realize that your trying to explain the teaching curriculum at Camp Hollywood was unnecessary, since I attended every Camp Hollywood Event from 1997 until 2007 when only my disability prevented me from continuing, and my professional teaching ballroom dancing started in 1949 at the Veloz & Yolanda Dance Studios in LA. a some 50 years before your introduction to ballroom dancing in 2001. Although experience and duration are not my way of equating knowledge.

Uncle Joe
Magic Pill is my contribution to dancers

[DWise1]

With all due respect (which can be read in the Woody Allen sense of you wish), if you make false statements then it does not matter one bit how many years you've been teaching what. Except that you should have known better than to have made false statements.

And, no, I wasn't talking about your teaching method, but rather about the false statements that you were making in this thread.

You started the thread with this (my emphasis):
This Thursday, the annual four day Swing celebration, "CAMP HOLLYWOOD" begins in LA..
Unfortunately, I am on crutches and will not be able to attend, but I am curious about the style of Swing classes and dancing that predominates during these four days mainly, how many instructors are still teaching WCS and how many instructors are using the SIX COUNT LINDY HOP method?

That is exactly what you wrote (except for my added emphasis); I copy-and-pasted it directly from the opening post. So are you going to stand there (or sit, since you're at your computer) and try to claim that you did not say anything about West Coast Swing being taught at the Lindy event Camp Hollywood?

Since you stated that WCS was taught at Camp Hollywood, despite all the times that you say you have attended, you obviously needed to be informed of what is taught there. Again, with your purported vast knowledge and experience, you should have known better than to have made such a statement.

And also please note that at no point in your opening post did you ever indicate that you were only talking about your teaching method. So that renders your show of indignation and your cavalier dismissals moot.

I am still waiting for you to support your blatantly bogus claim:
Before 2002 the term 'TRIPLE TRIPLE Rock Step' was used in teaching WCS.

But just as with similar requests for supporting evidence from creationists for their blatantly bogus claims, I'm sure I'll never see yours.

[kayak]

UJ,

What happens after the first 15 minutes? Every dance teacher has a general plan for getting total non-dancers up and going. So yours seems fine even if I would define 6 and 8 counts more like Dwise. My question is where does the Magic Pill take a dancer beyond a starter step?

The reason I ask is I can not imagine very many people going to a dance weekend or even reading Dance Forums that have absolutely no idea how to dance at least a little? Most come to these things with a real passion for dancing and a range of abilities from doing pretty well to totally awesome. So it seems like almost any instruction would be focused well past the first 15 minutes?

[uncle joe]

Kayak, After the first 15 minute dance instruction, hopefully the new student will continue Swing dancing and start taking more progressive lessons with other teachers; I never teach the same student a second time nor do I solicit Them.

My experience has been that some percentage of students take one or two class or private lessons, get discouraged because they can't 'Get it' and never return. Hopefully my Magic Pill teaching Method gives them the quick start to encourage them to continue their dancing.

I never charged or made any money on my Magic Pill. I've made it available for free on Dance Forum, in flyers distributed at the Swing Venues, at Camp Hollywood and on my Website. It works and that's my payback.

When I was first experimenting with my Magic Pill teaching Method, I would hunt out the wall flowers, and offer to teach them right the and there. We all have friends and relatives who don't know how to dance but would love to learn how.

Incidentally this thread was started as a survey to see what percentage of teachers are teaching WCS or ECS or Mixing the Six or with the Eight counts at Camp Hollywood this weekend?

Uncle Joe
A dancer's best friend

[DWise1]

Incidentally this thread was started as a survey to see what percentage of teachers are teaching WCS or ECS or Mixing the Six or with the Eight counts at Camp Hollywood this weekend?

[head in hand, slowly shaking head in disbelief]

First, if you wanted to know whether anybody there will be using your teaching method, then why did you not just simply ask?

Second, -- hellooooooo!!!! -- it's a LINDY event! Not a WCS event, nor an event that includes West Coast Swing, but a LINDY event. Duuuh???

Go to the Camp Hollywood site and read the schedule. Many Lindy classes, plus Charleston, Balboa, Shag (Collegiate, not Carolina), Shim Sham, and the Big Apple. There's even a class in Texas Tommy and another in partnered Black Bottom. But, uh, absolutely no sign of any West Coast Swing.

So what's with your fixation about West Coast Swing at Camp Hollywood?

OBTW, today:
2:15-3:15pm
Marcus & Baerbl – Mixing 6s & 8s (Beginner Track)

Though I'm sure that they're talking normal 6-count and 8-count moves instead of your bizaare redefinition.

[Flat Shoes]

And once you read the single page instructions you will also understand why using Eight counts and Six counts in the same lesson can be very confusing because Eight is counting steps and Six is counting rhythm which has some basic techniques built into the coded < 1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5-6 > which is not possible to apply when merely counting Eight steps or Tripling counts.

Language can sometimes be ambiguous and confusing. Steps can mean a single step, or it can mean a pattern that includes several steps. Counting can count each step, or it can count the beats.

When you write "eight is counting steps", I understand that as meaning counting each of the eight steps taken during six beats. But I think that most of us today is thinking about eight beats when counting to eight. So eight for us is not "counting steps", but counting beats. When counting to eight, we're not counting 1-2-3 4-5-6 7-8 (or 1-2 3-4-5 6-7-8 ) in six beats, but rather 1-2 3-&4 5-6 7-&8, in eight beats.

Both Lindy Hop and WCS have 6-count and 8-count patterns, as well as 4-count, 10-count and more. As we all agree on, counting is just a tool and not something that defines our dances. At least not when it comes to swing dancing.

The dances do have a basic rhythm, which is eight-count (eight beats) for both Lindy and WCS, and 6-count for ECS. In Lindy (I speak about Lindy, because that is the dance I know best) the basic rhythm is quick-quick slow quick-quick slow (each quick is one beat, each slow is two beats). The basic step pattern in Lindy to the basic beat is a triple-timed step going walk-walk triple walk-walk triple. But we're NOT limited to these steps during dancing. It's a basic rhythm and pattern, nothing more than that.

Putting this together in eight counts for Lindy:
walk-walk triple walk-walk triple
quick-quick slow quick-quick slow
1-2 3&4 5-6 7&8

It would be useful to have a table here, but each space (here an in the rest of my post) separates each "group" of two beats.

As for teaching Lindy Hop today, I don't think you will ever find anyone counting each actual step, like 1-2 3-4-5 6-7 8-9-10 (for eight beats) or 1-2 3-4-5 6-7-8 (for six beats). You'll find the variations given in the table above, or just scatting or clapping.

I thought I spotted a misunderstanding, so maybe I've been able to clear things up, or maybe I've misunderstood myself.

[uncle joe]

THE UNIVERSALITY OF COUPLE DANCING:
In 1972 I was at a public dance in Rome, Italy when Bossa Nova music came on. The Lady I had been dancing with, a stranger before that night, asked me if I knew how to dance the Bossa Nova, and I lied and said, 'No". She immediately began to teach me the Bossa Nova right there on the spot. To my pleasant surprise the young lady taught me the exact step patterns with the rhythm and body styling that I described in my original book, "Bossa Nova" in 1961.

The point of this story is that a ballroom dance should have universal application where any two good ballroom dancers on the planet earth can dance that dance together in unison even for the first time. The first time I danced the Tango with Beverly Mayo of Swing fame, who had learned the Tango in the Philippines, we danced a flawless Tango with only my body leads.

For any ballroom dance to have universal application, it must be leadable with only body leads and not dependent on special verbal instructions from the Leader. This is why I decided that there was a need to develop a teaching method for Swing/Lindy that would give the dance a consistency in basics to give it a universal flexibility. And that is why I ended up developing the Magic Pill, a Teaching Method for Swing/Lindy to bring a basic consistency of the fundamentals of the dance into a coded number system based on Quarter Notes and Eighth Notes to give Lindy/Swing the Universal Consistency it needed.

A new student to Swing/Lindy is more apt to get hooked on the dance if they can see their progress on the first lesson; the Magic Pill is designed to give the new student the thrill of dancing Swing/Lindy within 15-20 minutes of a private lesson which incorporates the essential rhythm with accents, foot patterns, lead and follow cues, all included in a coded system of < 1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5-6 >.


CODE FOR SWING/LINDY BASIC RHYTHM PATTERNS:
On < 1 >, start on any down beat moving FWD;
On < I & 2 > give leads and do three traveling steps;
On < 3 & 4 > do three step variations in place;
On < & 2, & 4, -6 > accent with subtle body move (syncopation);
On < & 2, & 4 > take Eighth Note duration steps, < Quick, Quick, Quick, Quick >;
On < 1, 3, 5, 6 > take Quarter Note duration steps, < Slow, S, S, S >
On < 5-6 > Lady Rocks Back, Man Rocks in the direction he leads the Lady.

Consistency does NOT mean conformancy. There is infinite room for using creative moves and styling beyond the guide lines in the Magic Pill.

If you can't lead or follow good Swing/Lindy dancers from Tibet or South Pasadena what good is your passport ?

Uncle Joe
Dancer's best Friend
All rights reserved @ 2009 by Joe Lanza

[uncle joe]

Flat Shoes, I agree on all your Points except the Counting of the Triples as <Q Q Slow >,
The Music Accents the First beat of the Bar, and a dancer can express the first Quarter beat as two Quicks and that is what is popular among WCS dancers and Post 1980 Swing dancers.

Swing/Lindy can be danced on beat or danced in syncopation with the music. By accenting the Up beats < &2, &4, -6 > the dancer is in syncopation with the music which for me is a more exciting rhythm.

Salsa dancers do the same thing, they accent the Down beat whereas Mambo, the origin of Salsa accents the upbeats.

It may sound like nit picking but I have done all four types rhythms of Swing and Mambo/Salsa, the only way you can appreciate the difference between accenting on the Down beat or Syncopating is by dancing in syncopation and you will never go back to the DOWN beat dancing, and your partner will never know the difference.

I ask you to check out the Magic Pill in the Dance Forum Archives, and then critique it.
It is he first time in Swing History that this "Teaching Method' and syncopation rhythm was documented and it's in the DF archives and in my book, 'Lindy By Lanza" published in March, 2002.
Uncle Joe
Dancer's best Friend

[uncle joe]

Flat Shoes, Yes WCS does incorporate Eight count step moves (8 Quarter Noted), however thes are Big Apple Steps like the Suzy Q, Shorty George, Trucken etc.. but these are moves that came into being after WW II, and were eventually incorporated into the Lindy.

As for counting Eifght beats for the Basic rhythm again I agree since you are counting the 4 Quarter Slows and the 4 Eighth Quicks (Eighth notes)

There is one area which I dagree with and with some excellent nouveau (Post 1980) Swing/Lindy Teachers, and that is when counting the Triples? From you post, I understand that you count the Triples as< Q Q Slow, QQ Slow?

I count the Triples as < Slow QQ, Slow QQ > and here is my reason for doing so:

The Down beat in a bar of music starts with the accent on the first Quarter Note\, and a dancer can split that Quarter Note into to Eighths (Q Q) so I understand your reason for a < Q Q Slow > for your Triple which most Post 1980 Swing/Lindy Teachers agree with you. However, when you do Q Q

[uncle joe]

Flat Shoes, I agree on all your Points except the Counting of the Triples as <Q Q Slow >,
The Music Accents the First beat of the Bar, and a dancer can express the first Quarter beat as two Quicks and that is what is popular among WCS dancers and Post 1980 Swing dancers.

Swing/Lindy can be danced on beat or danced in syncopation with the music. By accenting the Up beats < &2, &4, -6 > the dancer is in syncopation with the music which for me is a more exciting rhythm.

Salsa dancers do the same thing, they accent the Down beat whereas Mambo, the origin of Salsa accents the upbeats.

It may sound like nit picking but I have done all four types rhythms of Swing and Mambo/Salsa, the only way you can appreciate the difference between accenting on the Down beat or Syncopating is by dancing in syncopation and you will never go back to the DOWN beat dancing, and your partner will never know the difference.

I ask you to check out the Magic Pill in the Dance Forum Archives, and then critique it.
It is he first time in Swing History that this "teaching Method' and syncopation rhythm was documented and it's in the DF archives and in my book, 'Lindy By Lanza" published in March, 2002.
Uncle Joe
Dancer's best Friend

[Flat Shoes]

Flat Shoes, I agree on all your Points except the Counting of the Triples as <Q Q Slow >
The triple is only during the slow. During quick-quick we have (in the basics) step-step, and during slow, there is room for the triple step.

Each quick and slow is really a quick or slow weight change. A triple is really a single weight change (in triple timing). The triple can be replaced by a single step (single timing) or a tap-step (double timing).

Which means during a quick-quick slow we can have walk-walk step, walk-walk tap-step or walk-walk triple-step. (single time, double time and triple time basic)

[Apache]

Well to answer the original question of this thread, I just came back from Camp Hollywood this past weekend. (Thank you Hilary Alexander for that excellent event).

It was a mostly Lindy weekend with a few classes in Balboa and Collegiate Shag. There was nothing involving West Coast Swing. (As far as I know). Plus with Jonathan Stout and Dean Mora wailing at the speeds they were the night dances were not exactly Westie friendly either.

[uncle joe]

Thank you Apache, The tide is finally beginning to turn from the WCS to the Lindy. Congratulations Hilary for hiring Lindy dance Teachers.

For those of you who weren't around LA these past few years before say 2004, WCS was the predominant style of the Swing thing. Since 2002, starting with my book, "Lindy By Lanza" and my posts, "WCS Sucks", I have been on a Lone Crusade to rid the dance world of that abominable, boring WCS Chain Studio Swing.

I saw a gradual re-awaking since 2002 that the Lindy Hop was beginning to be accepted as the original more sophisticated dancer's dance, but I thought I'd never live long enough to see LA convert to the true version of the Savoy Lindy so soon.

Now hopefully, I can be forgiven for critiquing the WCS so vehemently all these year by my dance friends.

[uncle joe]

Flat Shoes,
All the years I have been teaching dancing, A <quick> has always been translated as a Eighth Note in music, and a <Slow> has always meant a Quarter Note in music. And in musical terms, a <Triple> is three beats evenly divided between two Quarter notes; creating a problem of where to accent; 1, 2, or 3 ?

Your explanation of Single, Double and Triple Swing is very clear and of course I agree with you there also; it is just where to accent the beat in the musc, and in Syncopated rhythm the accents are on the UP beats, the even numbered notes in a 4/4 bar of music; that is the musical definition of Syncopation.

But there is no rule you have to dance in Syncopated rhythm to the music. WCS and Salsa dancer's accent the DOWN beat and so do dancers in many other ballroom dances.

But once you try dancing in Syncopated rhythms you'll get hooked.
Uncle Joe
The dancer's best friend

[DWise1]

The triple is only during the slow. During quick-quick we have (in the basics) step-step, and during slow, there is room for the triple step.

Each quick and slow is really a quick or slow weight change. A triple is really a single weight change (in triple timing). The triple can be replaced by a single step (single timing) or a tap-step (double timing).

Which means during a quick-quick slow we can have walk-walk step, walk-walk tap-step or walk-walk triple-step. (single time, double time and triple time basic)

Let me put this in dancer-friendly terms. You basically have the right idea, but terminology is getting in the way.

In common usage, "quick" and "slow" both normally refer to a single step being taken. A quick is a step being taken in a single beat and a slow is a single step being taken over two beats. Therefore, for example, Country 2 Step is "quick quick slow slow", or in counts: 1-2-3-5. Counting with quicks and slows works well with a number of dances, especially ballroom dances. I've even heard it used with salsa, since the 4 and 8 counts are held, such that it becomes "quick-quick-slow, quick-quick-slow".

But I have never heard any swing dance rhythms ever counted with quicks and slows. Because it just does not apply. A triple is not a "slow", it is a triple. A triple is three steps, not just one. Yes, you can substitute a triple with a single, but that is a syncopation, not part of the basic rhythm.

Instead, I'll briefly describe Skippy Blair's "rhythm unit" system, which I've heard several WCS teachers use. A "rhythm unit" is a pair of beats, the downbeat followed by the upbeat (or "back beat"), AKA "1 2". During each rhythm unit, you can take any number of steps (within reason, of course0. But no matter how many steps you take, it will either be an even or an odd number of steps. Therefore, we can speak of even rhythm units and odd rhythm units. Therefore, your "quick-quick" is an even rhythm unit and the triple is actually an odd rhythm unit.

So a 6-count step is normally double-triple-triple, which is even-odd-odd. And an 8-count is even-odd-even-odd. Note that odd rhythms need to be paired up, though not necessarily next to each other, in order for you to end up on the correct foot for the next move. Though if you end up on the wrong foot, then you simply change the next move's intial double into an odd rhythm to correct it -- eg, the "hitch step" which is effectively a kick-ball-change.

A handy thing about thinking in even and odd rhythms is that it helps you in working with syncopations as well as in describing the rhythm of a move.

BTW, where Uncle Joe says
By accenting the Up beats < &2, &4, -6 > the dancer is in syncopation with the music which for me is a more exciting rhythm.
he's talking about "The Swing". That's the quality in swing music that "makes it swing" and that's what Lindy was danced to. West Coast Swing has since evolved and adapted to dancing to music that doesn't swing, so WCS is sometimes described as "swing dancing without the swing".

Dancing a triple without swing would be dividing the two beats evenly into thirds. To start dancing it with swing, prolong the first step for the duration of the first beat and then the remaining two within the second beat, almost with a ball-change feeling. Or to sing it out:
Without the swing: tri-ple-step
with the swing: triiii, ple-step


PS
uncle joe inadvertantly raised a good point for us to remember. Dancers and musicians use a lot of the same terms and those terms mean close to the same thing, but there are differences and we tend to use those same terms in slightly different ways. It's easy for confusion to creep in. We need to be clear in our minds what we mean by those terms and to understand what others mean by those terms.

[kayak]

Now all UJ just has to do is convince modern musicians to reverse their trend on emphasizing the Down beat and his mission to replace WCS with Lindy as danced to modern music will be well underway :cool:

[Dancelf]

So a 6-count step is normally double-triple-triple, which is even-odd-odd. And an 8-count is even-odd-even-odd. Note that odd rhythms need to be paired up, though not necessarily next to each other, in order for you to end up on the correct foot for the next move. Though if you end up on the wrong foot, then you simply change the next move's intial double into an odd rhythm to correct it -- eg, the "hitch step" which is effectively a kick-ball-change.

Right idea, but you are typing too quickly: that hitch step is an even rhythm unit (kick (0) + ball-change(2)).

Dancing a triple without swing would be dividing the two beats evenly into thirds.

No. Dancing a triple without swing would be dividing the two beats evenly into quarters (ie, splitting each beat in half), and stepping on three of them - "beat and beat". Your first weight change falls on the odd count, the last weight change falls on the even count, the middle step/press occurs centered between the two in time. This is the timing that we use when trying to match music that is played in "straight eighths".

To swing the triple, the middle is delayed (closer to the last step than the first), but the two full weight changes still fall on the beats.

[DWise1]

Right idea, but you are typing too quickly: that hitch step is an even rhythm unit (kick (0) + ball-change(2)).

&1 &2 is how we syncopate it when we start with the right foot (which is to say "the wrong foot") free:
& -- step onto the right foot
1 -- kick or point the left foot forward
&2 -- ball-change, having moved forward onto the rail, ending up where we would have been had it been a standard 1-2.

Which isn't to say that's the only way to do a hitch-kick, but rather that that is what I was referring to.


As for the rest of your reply, I agree with you.

[uncle joe]

May I suggest a music dictionary's definition of a Triple:

< TREE BEATS EVENLY DIVIDED BETWEEN TWO QUARTER NOTES >

In Swing/Lindy dancing, the controversy has been 'How to divide AND accent these three Beats of the Triple?

My explanation has always been since 1953, (although we never used the term 'Triple') is to divide the Triple's two Quarter Notes, into One Slow Step (One Quarter Note) and Two Quick Steps (2 Eighth Notes) e.g. < Slow Quick Quick > (See Magic Pill in DF archives)

And start on any of the music's Down beats with One Slow Step (First Quarter Beat) and followed with Two Quick Quick Steps accented in syncopation with the 4/4 time music.

There is no rule for dancer's; they can interpret music the way they feel it; I just defined what Syncopation is according to music dictionaries, i.e. "Syncopation is accenting the unaccented beats in a bar of music".

I prefer a Triple that is divided into One Single Quarter beat followed by Two Eighth Beats = Slow Quick Quick > with the accents on the Quick Quicks, the even numbered Quarter notes of a bar.

The Rock step takes Two Slows (Two Quarter Notes) < Slow Slow >.

Uncle Joe
The dancer's best friend

[bjp22tango]

My explanation has always been since 1953, (although we never used the term 'Triple') is to divide the Triple's two Quarter Notes, into One Slow Step (One Quarter Note) and Two Quick Steps (2 Eighth Notes) e.g. < Slow Quick Quick >

There is no rule for dancer's; they can interpret music the way they feel it;

I prefer a Triple that is divided into One Single Quarter beat followed by Two Eighth Beats = Slow Quick Quick > with the accents on the Quick Quicks, the even numbered Quarter notes of a bar.

I dance Single time, Double time, and Triple time depending on the type of music being played and how the rhythm is emphasised.

To "Swing" music of the 30's & 40's I tend to syncoplate 3/4 1/4 1 on the triple steps because that is what the music asks for.

For the simplified Rock & Roll and Country swing music I tend to do as Uncle Joe does and make is 1/2 1/2 1 or quick quick slow or even reduce it to a tap step or simply a step if the music is fast enough.

It just depends on the music.

[Alias]

I think that writing "triple" instead of "triple-step" is too much of an abbreviation and may lead to some misunderstanding (idem for "double" of course), even in a dance discussion we don't talk only about steps as there are other issues like timing and music, and other dance-related actions (what about a triple-kick, a triple-wink ;) ;) ;) …).

[Flat Shoes]

Let me put this in dancer-friendly terms. You basically have the right idea, but terminology is getting in the way.

I've learned this the informal way, so that might be very possible.


In common usage, "quick" and "slow" both normally refer to a single step being taken. A quick is a step being taken in a single beat and a slow is a single step being taken over two beats. Therefore, for example, Country 2 Step is "quick quick slow slow", or in counts: 1-2-3-5. Counting with quicks and slows works well with a number of dances, especially ballroom dances. I've even heard it used with salsa, since the 4 and 8 counts are held, such that it becomes "quick-quick-slow, quick-quick-slow".

But I have never heard any swing dance rhythms ever counted with quicks and slows.

You will find it on the net, but I see the problem you're pointing out when it comes to Lindy. But check out some (collegiate) shag descriptions, and you will find the slow-slow-quick-quick rhythm mentioned many places.


Because it just does not apply. A triple is not a "slow", it is a triple. A triple is three steps, not just one.

OK, seems I was wrong here. :)


Yes, you can substitute a triple with a single, but that is a syncopation, not part of the basic rhythm.

I disagree. I will say that quick-quick slow (step-step on beat 1 and 2, and step and hold on beat 3 and 4) is the basic rhythm. Then the the last single step can be substituted with a tap-step or a triple (or something else). But I understand that it is wrong (and causes confusion) to still use quick-quick slow, when the last step is replaced by a triple.

The main point of the triple is to add easy traveling. When I dance, and do not have to travel on the triple, I am often lazy and just use a single step instead.


Dancing a triple without swing would be dividing the two beats evenly into thirds. To start dancing it with swing, prolong the first step for the duration of the first beat and then the remaining two within the second beat, almost with a ball-change feeling. Or to sing it out:
Without the swing: tri-ple-step
with the swing: triiii, ple-step

I've heard too many instructors going tri-ple-step with an even unsyncopated rhythm. And being a local instructor myself I know how easy it is to do just this when not thinking about it.


uncle joe inadvertantly raised a good point for us to remember. Dancers and musicians use a lot of the same terms and those terms mean close to the same thing, but there are differences and we tend to use those same terms in slightly different ways. It's easy for confusion to creep in. We need to be clear in our minds what we mean by those terms and to understand what others mean by those terms.
Absolutely.

[Flat Shoes]

When it comes to what swings and not, I am not sure. I of course agree that the triple-step should be syncopate. And not doing it would be weird.

But there is more to it than that. I know I can swing when dancing single time too. And I know I can't swing if the music doesn't swing.

Describing what's happening is not easy, but the way I think about it is that good swing comes from the body and the bounce connecting with the rhythm in the music. Just syncopating the footwork is not quite enough.

This is one thing I sometimes mention when teaching locally; don't dance like metronomes.

[uncle joe]

bjp22tango,
You suggested that I do Quick Quick Slow on threes; actually I do <Slow Quick Quick >
And here is my main reason for doing so:
In any bar (measure) of music, the First note is the most accented regardless of the dance. If I started my three steps with Quick Quick Slow, how would I be able to syncopate and accent on the second Quarter note?

I try both rhythms with my hands and feet, but I can't in a zone with the Quick Quick Slow. It may be because I have danced Slow Quick Quick for over 50 years?

My Six count Lindy rhythm is < 1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5 - 6 > which seems to be the count being used on the Dance Forums and at he last dance venues I attended.
??If dance partners re using different accents with different rhythms it could cause a sense of not being together. Although Lindy is pretty much a free form dance, there needs to be a consistency in the rhythm if not in the subtle body accents. Consistency in rhythm is not conformity in dancing.

[uncle joe]

Out of general curiosity, what would be the main difference between the three? Is it the technique alone with which the steps are executed or is it something else?

And also, what are you more partial to dancing, and why? What is the easiest of the three (in your opinion), and what is the hardest?

The ECS is the Lindy Hop and here are the techniques for this version of Swing taken from My Magic Pill by Black Sheep. (See DF archives for complete description of Lindy.)
"Slow, Quick, Quick Slow, Quick, Quick, Slow, Slow
ONE & TWO, THREE & FOUR, FIVE SIX

LADY, ON THE 1... &2 ALWAYS travels or turns only on these 3 steps;
LADY ON THE 3... &4 ALWAYS takes 3 steps in-place;
LADY ON THE 5 -- 6 ALWAYS Rocks Back, takes 2 steps.

MAN ON THE 1... &2 - 3... &4 takes 6 steps in-place, rotating with thedirection of his leads;
MAN ON THE 5-- 6 ALWAYS Rocks in the direction of his leads;
MAN ON THE 1... &2 ALWAYS gives his leads.
--------------------------------------------------------------
The WCS is obsolete, a waste of time learning: basically the Lady walks into her partner on the Rock Step instead Rocking Back. WCS was danced by Chain Dance Studios in Southern California from the 1940's until last year when it finally was substituted by the Lindy.

Jazz, is another name for Swing dancing that is rarely used. Free form interpretive dancing is what dancers call Jazz.

Uncle Joe The Dancers Best Friend

[uncle joe]

And, just because I've looked for this before, and came across it, and want to get it out there.
Haile wrote (this was in the 50s) in the description of "Western Swing"...
"Altho' triples are taken to 2 beats, they should not be "equalized" - they slould (sic) still have a feeling of "syncopation" similar in count to "quick-quick-slow".

Laure' Hail was a long time friend of mine and we danced swing together often throughout the years, and she was one of the best all round ballroom dancers, but she was strictly an Arthur Murray WCS dancer, which lacks many of the advanced techniques of the NYC Lindy Hop.

She was right about dividing the Triple into separate beats in order to be able to dance in syncopation. However, instead of QUICK QUICK SLOW I recommend <Slow Quick Quick > Nit-picking? Try both and see what feels more rhythmically euphoric.

My Six Count Lindy Teaching Method is a result of dancing and teaching NYC Lindy Hop since 1953.

Uncle Joe
The Teacher's Best Friend

[uncle joe]

In my book, "Lindy by Lanza", please note the date of publication April 20, 2001 when I first described the, "Lanza Six Count Lindy", a teaching method. It took almost a decade before my friends in L.A. finally abandoned the WCS which was based on the WW II film, "Buck Private" which was revived in 1980. And for almost thirty years Southern Californians were dancing a poor substitute of the NYC Lindy Hop, under the impression this was the Real Deal.

Ironically, in this past month's Camp Hollywood four day festival, Hilary Alexander advertised in her previews that the WCS style would be taught, and friends who attended Camp Hollywood this past month informed me that the WCS was suddenly obsolete and every one at the CH dance was doing the Six Count Lindy that I had preached and formulated a teaching method for that converted WCS dancers to the Lindy hop in my Magic Pill which first appeared on Dance Forum in 2002, and in my book, "Lindy By Lanza" and in countless flyers delivered at the annual Camp Hollywood events, and at weekly Swing venues for the past nine years here in Southern California.

But Unfortunately, "The Lanza SIX Count Lindy" teaching method is being taught by A FEW incompetent teachers who add so many of their hubris modifications that the effectiveness of the original paradigm is lost in the confusion by their mixing Triples with Six Counts and starting with Rock Steps instead of FWD on the < 1 & 2 > and thereby changing the functions of the counts < 1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5-6 > thereby crippling the effectiveness of the original formula with coded numbers including their four specific crucial Lindy Hop techniques: Rock Back for Resistance, syncopated rhythm, placement of Leads, and When to Travel.

This is my, "Lanza Six Count Lindy Teaching Method", if anyone can do better, show me !
(The Six Count Teaching Method is in he DF archives under "Magic Pill".

Uncle Joe
The Dancer's Best Friend

[DWise1]

Ironically, in this past month's Camp Hollywood four day festival, Hilary Alexander advertised in her previews that the WCS style would be taught, ...

I'm sorry, but I must not have heard that correctly. You see, you just set off my BS detector and it's going crazy.

Of course, I must request^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hdemand that you point us to those previews. So we can see it for ourselves. Nothing personal, but you've been trying to shovel so much BS on us that we just cannot take your word for anything.

... and friends who attended Camp Hollywood this past month informed me that the WCS was suddenly obsolete and every one at the CH dance was doing the Six Count Lindy

Oh man! You just pegged my BS detector's needle!

Just straight 6-count? No swingouts? No 8-count circles? You're trying to tell us that all those Lindy hoppers just abandoned Lindy in favor of boring old ECS???

[RickRS]

Uncle Joe,

Why dump on WCS? Your tone toward WCS, when you have commented, has been very negative:

post 33 (1 week ago)
.....tide turn from WCS to Lindy.
.....crusade to rid the dance world of that abominable, boring WCS chain studio swing.


post 45 (6 days ago)
.... WCS is obsolete, a waste of time learning;....


And now your last post is all gleeful that there wasn't any WCS at a Lindy comp.
:confused::confused::confused:
Of course it didn't feature WCS, it was a Lindy comp!

Why not be nice; promote your favorite, Lindy, without knocking a style others are enjoying?

[fascination]

one does not have to respect anyone elses' ideas around here but we need to be respectful in how we disagree...I hope I will not have to elaborate or get specific with folks...thanks all for your cooperation

[uncle joe]

My criticism of the WCS was no a criticism of the dancers or instructors, but since WCS dancers were obviously offended, I sincerely apologize to them.

I know several old time WCS Swing dancers who eventually converted, I was one of them. It is true that converts usually end up being fanatical about their new religion, that is not my excuse, it is a personality aberration and just an explanation of my seeming insensitivity to others feelings.

I hope and believe that in the near future my vitriolic comments about the WCS will be forgotten along with the WCS. I might add that I have already paid dearly for my criticism of the WCS; A majority of my acquaintances who are advocates of WCS have given me the cold should these past nine years.
That is the price you pay for rudely expressing opinions that are contrary to the majority.
Thanks for teaching me a good lesson.
Sincerely,
Uncle Joe

[DancingMommy]

Why on earth would you want the demise of a legitimate form of dance? That's so... Elitist. And snobbish. Perhaps the fact that people have been giving you the cold shoulder for almost a decade is a wakeup call.

For the record, many people enjoy WCS just fine and have no interest in Lindy Hop. How arrogant would it be for a ballroom dancer to say "Oh I hope Lindy Hop dies a slow lingering death"?

Dancing is - and SHOULD - be about enjoying one's self on the dance floor. All the sturm and drang of "I hope it DIIIIIIIIEEEEEEES" is a load of bullhockey. Dance what *you* want to dance. Don't begrudge other's their happy place.

There's nothing in this world that gets me in a state of [can't put the words on this forum] than egotisitical dancers of any stripe who get bent because other people are enjoying themselves doing [insert dance] that the EDs don't "approve of".

William Shatner said it best in his SNL sketch.

[DWise1]

William Shatner said it best in his SNL sketch.

"Sulu! Is that you?"

Oh! The other SNL sketch! [grin]



Joe, other forums tend to attract a rather disgusting lower life form called the troll. It seems that the only purpose in life that a troll has is to subvert normal forum discourse and to generate flame wars. They do this by posting outrageous messages that contain outlandish lies which are calculated to generate angry responses. The conventional wisdom is to not feed the trolls, though my approach tends to be to hold the troll's feet to the fire.

Joe, when you exhibit troll-like behavior, then you should not be surprised to be treated like a troll. The solution to this is simple and entirely up to you.

We have no problem with somebody holding an opinion that we do not share. We do not have any problem per se when contrary opinions are expressed, but how those opinions are expressed is where problems can arise. Honest and respectful discourse is most advised, especially when it allows and even encourages an exchange of ideas and views. We need to support our position with evidence, facts, and honest reasoning. It does not help our position when we present outrageously false statements and claims, basically just throwing out foolish nonsense that we make up. If that is all that we are able to present in support of our position, then that position is baseless.

Joe, instead of using foolish nonsense to support your position, use honest reasoning. It will serve you far better.


There are things that I don't like. For example, I abhor sports. Always have. So do I wish for and plot the demise of sports? No, I simply have nothing to do with it. Simple as that.

There are dances that I don't like. Similarly, rather than berate those dances and wish they ceased to exist, I simply don't participate in them. At worst, I'll enjoy jokes at their expense (eg, t-shirt of a long-horn steer standing in the midst of a herd of sheep; the steer exclaims: "Oh no! I'm surrounded by line dancers!"). Doesn't bother me much when a line dance starts, because at the country venue I usually go to there's still room all along the sides of the dance floor for WCS; though at another country venue, they only leave room for a few slots.

And it's not a matter of either WCS or Lindy. For one thing, they have their own communities that do not compete directly with each other; if WCS were to completely disappear tomorrow, that does not mean that suddenly all those people would go to Lindy. In fact, most dancers I know do not restrict themselves to just one dance community, but rather they are in multiple communities. I'm only one of several who dance both WCS and Lindy (and hustle and nightclub and country and ballroom and salsa and Argentine tango).

No dance exists at the expense of any other of the dances. Unless bigots in one community campaign against the other communities. Most of us agree that such campaigns are totally uncalled-for and unacceptable.

[DancingMommy]

"Sulu! Is that you?"

Errr... Actually, yes it is. ;)

[Larinda McRaven]

If the concept that WCS is alive and well is so important to each of you, then YOU go live it!

Joe is very clear in his reality that WCS is worthless... then let HIM live it.

[DWise1]

Errr... Actually, yes it is. ;)

Oops! Remembered it wrong. It was Khan who delivered that line when he saw an over-weight Sulu -- the Enterprise had been converted into an interstellar fast-food restaurant and Sulu had been loading up on fries ever since. Well, I had only seen that one once and it must have been over 25 years ago.

The sketch I assumed you had meant was Shatner at a convention finally getting fed up over Trekkies' persistent questions over minutiae that he finally told them all to "get a life already!"

[DancingMommy]

HAHHHAHA Yes, the Shatner get a life skit is the one I was talking about.

The irony is that my last name is one letter off from Sulu's and pronounced the same. 8) I'm such a trekkie I married into the last name of one of the characters.

[uncle joe]

I add this post as a defense for my 'Lanza Six Count Lindy', but NOT as a defense for my insensitivity regarding my crude uncalled for remarks about WCS. I am guilty of that and am gratefully humbled by the advice given by Dwise1 and DancingMommy.
---------------------------------
I had a dream about a moth ago and I put the dream into a true story called, 'Little Joe and Big John'. In my teenage years, during the late 1930's I was forced into a boxing match by my peers to fight Big John a bully of the block who was much bigger and over a year older. In the second round I landed a lucky round house to his jaw that ended the Boxing match with a technical KO. Big John turned out to be a very friendly citizen after the technical KO. In my dream last month, Big John and I met once again and after a congenial meeting as I left, John said, "Thanks for teaching me a good lesson."
----------------------------------
Nw my post:
The test of a professional instructor is, 'Do the students retain the lesson just ended or do the students forget what was just taught when the door hits their asses as they leave'.

Why is the Lanza Six Count Lindy a fail-safe effective teaching method?
1) It is a simple uncomplicated method and anyone can TEACH or LEARN to dance the Lindy within minutes and the basic moves are unforgettable;
2) It is a guide line with an universal application for LEADING or FOLLOWING Lindy Dancing with whomever from wherever;
3) The Six Counts can be used to describe almost any Lindy configuration, and by adding < And (&) > Counts the most advanced configurations can be graphically described > . see page 133 in my book "Lindy By Lanza", the Savoy Slide;
4) There is a consistency to the Lanza Six Count Lindy formular without limiting creativity or styling;
5) The Six Count becomes an Universal language so when changing teachers the terminology is consistent between teachers from different dance studios, instead of contradicting and confusing;
6) Lindy dancing can have a continuos rhythmic euphoria because of the basic Lindy techniques are intrinsic in the simple Six Counts that make transitions from one configuration to another automatic;
7) The Six Count can also be easily adjusted to be used for Advance Whip Rhythms
< 1 & 2, 5-6, > instead of < 1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5-6 >
8) LSCL eliminates teaching any Tricky Configurations that are not leadable or followable.
----------------------------------
EXCERPTS FROM MY MAGIC PILL

LANZA SIX COUNT LINDY

"Slow, Quick, Quick Slow, Quick, Quick, Slow, Slow

ONE & TWO, THREE & FOUR, FIVE SIX

LADY, ON THE 1... &2 ALWAYS travels or turns only on these 3 steps;
LADY ON THE 3... &4 ALWAYS takes 3 steps in-place;
LADY ON THE 5 -- 6 ALWAYS Rocks Back, takes 2 steps.

MAN ON THE 1... &2 - 3... &4 takes 6 steps in-place, rotating with the direction of his leads;
MAN ON THE 5-- 6 ALWAYS Rocks in the direction of his leads;
MAN ON THE 1... &2 ALWAYS gives his leads.

TWO PRIMARY TEACHING RULES

1) PLAY MUSIC CONTINUOUSLY DURING LESSON WITH MEDIUM-SLOW TEMPO;
2) STUDENTS COUNT CONTINUOUSLY DURING LESSON, "1... &2, 3... &4, 5-6".
---------------------------------------
COMMON ERRORS:
1) Starting the dance by Rocking Back changes the sequence of the numbers and the techniques and starting any ballroom dance by both partners moving backward is awkward;
2) Mixing Triple and Eight counts with the Six Counts is totally confusing;
3) Lack of Resistance because of lose flexible arms;
4) Falling back on heels in Rock Steps slows agility;
5) Rushing Rock Steps as a Slow Quick instead of a Slow Slow.
-------------------------------
Uncle Joe
The Dancers Best Friend

[uncle joe]

Only a few years ago the term, 'Six Count' was NEVER mentioned in Dance Forum except in my Magic Pill. If there are any Swing Historians out there, would you dig up any statement mentioning 'Six Count Swing' or Six Count anything before April, 2001, when my book, 'Lindy By Lanza' was a first published and distributed to some 200 Dancers mostly in LA including the Entrepreneur of Camp Hollywood, Hilary Alexander.

I have had copies mailed to me and read through Skippy Blair's book and both of Laure Haile' s books and there was never a phrase in those books that mentioned Six Count Anything. And those two very talented ladies who were good friends of mine are prime authorities of WCS who I respect with a reverence for their contributions to WCS.

But 'Lindy By Lanza' is the first book published internationally, that mentions 'Six Count Lindy' and explains it as a Teaching Method and describes in precise detail the complete breakdown of the Teaching Method.

Now that Steve Pastor has a copy of 'Lindy By Lanza', he can make a personal evaluation of my statement that the 'Lanza Six Count Lindy' appeared in print before any other source publicly even mentioning the term or describing the rhythmic Six Count Lindy for Swing before April 2001.

It is always *******ing to set the historical Swing facts straight, don't you agree Steve?

Uncle Joe
The Dancer's Best Friend

[uncle joe]

In Dance Forum and in the dance classes that I have observed in LA in the past two years the Triple steps in Swing are divided as < Quick Quick Slow > instead of < Slow Quick Quick > as I do in my Six Count Lindy Teaching Method. Kayak and FlatShoes break up the `Triple as Quick Quick Slow. In the quote on DF Tang0man quotes Laure'' Hail as suggesting that the Triples are separated into Quick Quick Slow in order to dance in syncopation.

Dancing in Syncopation with the music is accenting the Quarter Up Beats, the # 2 & #4 beats in a 4/4 bar of music. Agreed?

Now when you express the first Quarter beat in a bar of music with Quick Quick (two Eighth notes), you are in fact accenting the down beat by varying the duration of first Quarter Note by Two Eighths therefore you are accenting a down beat which does not qualify as Syncopation even if you feel it does.

Another way to think of expressing the first Quarter beat is with an equal duration of one Slow weight change; there is no difference in duration between the first Quarter note and the duration of the weight change, and therefore no accent is felt on the Down beat.

If instead you hold the first Quarter note with a weight change of the full duration of the first Quarter note and you express the second Quarter note (the Up Beat) with a Quick Quick (two Eighth notes) (S Q Q), you are accenting the Up Beat, the even numbered Quarter notes in a bar of Music by changing the duration of the second Quarter note by two eighth notes, two weight changes i.e. Quick Quick.

And this qualifies as dancing in Syncopation with the music since you are accenting the Up Beat. It takes time to begin to feel the euphoric zone of dancing in syncopation, but once you do, you will get hooked not only on dancing in Syncopation, but on improvising your counter rhythms endlessly, which is the real high in dancing or in vocalizing or in playing an instrument when you get in the Zone where you are energized in a continuos euphoria. I've been on that trip cold sober.
The secret is < Slow Quick Quick >.

Uncle Joe The Dancer's Best Friend.

[kayak]

Thanks UJ,

After being a member of DF for 3-4 years and seeing you post and repost the Magic Pill, I finally understand the point you are trying to make in you Magic Pill effort. Before, my reading of your description of six count swing sure didn't sound very different than anything I was seeing. The past few post you have made help a lot. I can understand you mission to change the way the upbeat gets emphasis.

Probably a similar debate occurs in Nightclub 2-Step. The Buddy Schwimmer version places emphasis on the downbeat different from the CW version. I don't have a name for who in the CW world began placing the QQs on the opposite beat, but it does really fit a lot of super slow music better. So there is a similar debate on QQS vs SQQ in another dance.

Sorry, I have to defer to much smarter folks in music theory for rendering an opinion on whether QQS or SQQ is a better fit for Lindy.

[LindyKeya]

Here's the thing though (even though I would hesitate to count anything in triple steps in ECS as QQS or SQQ, since a S=2 and a Q=1, whereas the triple should be syncopated): NEITHER is inherently more correct than the other. Some steps require a different syncopation, some songs require a different syncopation. Yes, you should be accenting the 2s, and you can do that in many different syncopations. Accenting the correct beat is not about the syncopation itself, so much as how you do it. (Don't believe me? I've seen plenty of beginners accenting the 1 doing either something resembling SQQ or QQS.)

[LindyKeya]

But 'Lindy By Lanza' is the first book published internationally, that mentions 'Six Count Lindy' and explains it as a Teaching Method and describes in precise detail the complete breakdown of the Teaching Method.


Mind telling who the international publisher is? WorldCat turns up nothing.

[uncle joe]

LindyKeya,
I am self-published like many other authors. My books have been sold to many dancers and teachers in foreign countries.
My website might give you some satisfaction. < WWW.LINDYBYLANZA.COM >
Uncle Joe

[uncle joe]

Kayak,
The best way to test which feels better is to try both, accenting with a slight lilting of the body (No Stamping) on the Q Q of the first Down Quarter Beat (One) and then the QQ on the second Up Quarter Beat (two).
You do not need to be a professional musician to feel music.

Use a full medium tempo song to get into the rhythmic zone uninterrupted for each, QQS and SQQ; it helps if your partner is on the same accent during the test, but not essential. I always accent on the Up Beats regardless where my partner accents.

I appreciate your objective approach.
Uncle Joe