Rise & Fall

[ShyDancer]

I had a really good private lesson tonight, my teacher really worked me hard (I loved it!) on the rise and fall. It was a 1 & 1/2 hr lesson so I am pretty exhausted now and cant be bothered practicing (not to mention I stupidly wore my new shoes hoping to break them in a bit :? )

Any ideas and tips for practicing at home would be greatly appreciated.

I am struggling just a bit in one dance as its "heel, toe heel, heel, toe heel" and I feel like Im a small boat on an angry sea, bobbing around like that!
Any advice on making it smooth?

[D-spot]

Rise is relativelyeasy as you go up until your knees are only slightly flexed. Fall was my nemesis, how far to go? I read a good indicator as to how far, approx 45 degrees of your shins to the floor. For me that's a long way down.
Still practicing rise and fall, makes for a great flow but it's much harder to stay in the good balance zone.
D-spot

[Vince A]

Don't feel bad, many of us strggle with this.

The rise and fall doesn't happen by making your legs flex and straighten. It happens from the extenion of your legs and how you land.

Here are a few of the things that worked for me . . .

-THINK . . . bowlegged/pigeontoes, etc. -exaggerate this feeling, and when you do dance it, your legs will be correct.

-THINK being joined at the hip with your dance partner - one and the same. It's not a sexual thing, so get off of that feeling!

-THINK . . . huge strides, over-extend your stride, which causes you to lower and stepping causes you to rise.

Although what you wrote - "heel, toe heel, heel, toe heel" - is correct,
-THINK . . . heel, toe, toe, heel . . . unless of course, you're teacher says don't do it this way. All this is . . . is a mind trick to get rid of what you are already saying, which is a mouthful!

-THINK proud . . . chest and head up.

-THINK of a champagne glass balanced on top of your head. It is filled with champagne, and you cannot spill any of it. So, stay smooth!

These are just ricks that worked for me . . . they are not for everyone, nor may not be entirely correct.

They are just mind tricks!

[Sagitta]

I still haven't got the rise and fall thing myself, and I do find the fall half the harder half. I try to do a bit of it, but I feel that it is just as or more important for there to be good balance and leading when social dancing, so I may not do as much of it as I should. If I have a really good follower, then probably do it, but with a beginner I'm not good enough to try that and have a really pleasurable dance experience.


What I'm doing is practicing the rise and fall at home in very slowly, making sure that I feel balanced and in the right position at every point, and slowly pick up the pace. I've noticed that it does help when I do social dancing. I do remember a video clip at dancevision.com for a video that they were selling on waltz/ballroom, where they show the technique of rise and fall. Something for you to use outside your dance lesson, perhaps?

[Sabor]

:shock: .. oh .. pardon.. i thought this was about the 'Rise & Fall'.. of Rome :shock:

sorry :bouncy:

[Genesius Redux]

I had a really good private lesson tonight, my teacher really worked me hard (I loved it!) on the rise and fall. It was a 1 & 1/2 hr lesson so I am pretty exhausted now and cant be bothered practicing (not to mention I stupidly wore my new shoes hoping to break them in a bit :? )

Any ideas and tips for practicing at home would be greatly appreciated.

I am struggling just a bit in one dance as its "heel, toe heel, heel, toe heel" and I feel like Im a small boat on an angry sea, bobbing around like that!
Any advice on making it smooth?

Hi ShyDancer! :D

My thoughts on rise and fall are a little different from the ones here. I can see why your teacher began by doing heel-toe-heel, a simplified version of the footwork which is much more complicated (I'm guessing you're practicing with forward steps?).

The actual footwork that I've learned (I'm counting this in waltz) goes like this:

1. Heel-Ball-Toe
2. Toe
3. Toe-Ball-Heel

There is a compression prep for the first step. Compress into the first step, and extend your leg, as you shift from the heel to the toe of your first step, you rise onto that leg, and bring the second leg into your toe step. Then the third step is also a toe step. When you're on your toes, then lower into the compression and step forward on your heel for the next step.

It's the lowering action, the compression that keeps it smooth--controlled with ankles. Keep tone in your feet, even when your up on your toes and really control that descent before you step.

My view is almost the opposite of Vince's--in that I'm seeing the compression step, the lowering, as what drives the leg forward, not the other way around. You don't want to fall into that forward step. Keeping yourself balanced as you compress is what's going to make the step smooth.

I'd keep my toes pointed in the same direction. Eventually (if we're talking about moving forward), it may be helpful to think of all of the steps as forward steps, but toes always pointed in the same direction.

HTH,

Genesius

[msc]

There might be just a teensy bit of hip action, at least if you employ swing and sway.

[Vince A]

GR,
I agree . . . we really do not "fall" into the forward step . . . I was trying to get her to get passed some sticking points for her . . . she will get to what you wrote out . . . just some of us, have to translate into our own interpretation.

I had to write my own "words for counting" out for Hustle . . . It took me years to get passed a sticking point, but I do count it correctly these days!

Thanks . . .

[Genesius Redux]

GR,
I agree . . . we really do not "fall" into the forward step . . . I was trying to get her to get passed some sticking points for her . . . she will get to what you wrote out . . . just some of us, have to translate into our own interpretation.

Oh, without a doubt! You just never know, especially in describing steps, what will make sense and what won't. So in making suggestions, we all break it down differently. Ultimately, I think we're looking for the same thing, simultaneous compression and stepping. It's been my experience that the practice was just horrendous, couldn't get it right, and then all of a sudden I was dancing to music and rising and falling.

I did have the problem with smoothness, though, and what helped for me was really focusing on footwork.

[dancin_feet]

This is just starting to fall into place for me. Got the rise happening consistently, but the fall is still inconsistent. I tend to lose my forward poise when I fall back, instead of lowering the heels and staying forward. To prevent doing this, I have got the bad habit of not lowering my heels, but just bending at the knees.

Control is the main key. Ankle exercises have helped me, and once you have stronger ankles, the smoothness comes along with it as you control it better.

That's been my experience anyway. :D

[ShyDancer]

Fall was my nemesis, how far to go? I read a good indicator as to how far, approx 45 degrees of your shins to the floor.


Thanks for that, I will keep that in mind now, I love these little bits of info, I learnt how to properly "lift" my leg this way.


Although what you wrote - "heel, toe heel, heel, toe heel" - is correct,
-THINK . . . heel, toe, toe, heel . . . unless of course, you're teacher says don't do it this way. All this is . . . is a mind trick to get rid of what you are already saying, which is a mouthful!


My teacher did begin by saying it this way, but he quickly noticed that when he said Toe, Id just hang right up there on it without lowering my heel , then overbalancing on the next heel lead. I want to keep using that until it becomes natural to put my heel down.
I love mind tricks though! I use them myself often..one of my teachers is really big on not dragging your feet...but in one dance I say to myself "heel, drag(toe lead) " because it makes me use my foot differently...he has complimented me on how well I do it :lol:


I'm seeing the compression step, the lowering, as what drives the leg forward, not the other way around. You don't want to fall into that forward step. Keeping yourself balanced as you compress is what's going to make the step smooth.


I think this is what my teacher referred to as "push" . Not leaning into a forward step but using the lowering action to build up enough power to push your step out, this way it comes from under you and is less likely to cause you to lose balance.


I tend to lose my forward poise when I fall back, instead of lowering the heels and staying forward. To prevent doing this, I have got the bad habit of not lowering my heels, but just bending at the knees.



Did I write that???? :shock: :shock:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

As soon as I read that, I was like "Thats what Im doing!"

Even though I have all the technical information stored in my brain, my body is yet to co-operate fully with all my knowledge.
When I was thinking hard about my technique it was working pretty well, but as soon as I relaxed (read that as-thought I was doing good enough to stop focusing so hard :lol: ) it all went out the window.


I should also mention that the dances I am doing are New Vogue, and the tempos are pretty fast 50-56bpm (Evening 3 Step) 48-54bpm (Parma Waltz) and 28-32bpm (Merrilyn) compared to Modern Waltz at 28-30bpm
So I have less time to think about my rise and fall. They are the same thing though...just almost in double time! Dj Otzi version of Hey baby is a track we parctice Evening 3 Step to, so you can imagine the tempo of the dance.

[delamusica]

For me, the hardest thing about learning rise and fall was simply muscle strength and control - moving up and down with such precision is hard! If you're interested, here's an exercise that I used to get used to controlling my leg/ankle muscles:

Stand on the stairs, facing up, with only the balls of your feet/toes on the stair (heels hanging off the edge).

Let your heels drop below your toes, then bend your knees as far as you can while staying balanced (go ahead and use the railing!). Slowly alternate between this position and standing as far up on your toes as you can get - be sure to hold the up and down position for a few seconds at least, and to move very slowly to work your muscles.

This is great for strengthening the ankles, calves, and thighs - so important for smooth rise and fall!

Hope this made sense - I'm not very good at explaining it, I think . . .

[dancin_feet]

For me, the hardest thing about learning rise and fall was simply muscle strength and control - moving up and down with such precision is hard! If you're interested, here's an exercise that I used to get used to controlling my leg/ankle muscles:

Stand on the stairs, facing up, with only the balls of your feet/toes on the stair (heels hanging off the edge).

Let your heels drop below your toes, then bend your knees as far as you can while staying balanced (go ahead and use the railing!). Slowly alternate between this position and standing as far up on your toes as you can get - be sure to hold the up and down position for a few seconds at least, and to move very slowly to work your muscles.

This is great for strengthening the ankles, calves, and thighs - so important for smooth rise and fall!

Hope this made sense - I'm not very good at explaining it, I think . . .

Makes perfect sense. I use this exercise myself to strengthen my ankles, though I did overdo it one day and ended up with calves so sore I could barely walk!!