Villa Urquiza [Archive]

10-27-2008, 10:00 AM

"In this class we will work [on] elegance, virtuosity and dancing the pause of the music. [This tango class] is not about figures, it's about the musicality and quality of movement focusing on the connection between the partners. We will be working to find comfort, elegance, clarity in the lead, sensitivity in the follow and confidence. "

Copy/paste that blurb to any tango workshop flyer. (Bold brackets are my edits.) I honestly don't see how this is different from any solid tango class. These are qualities that transcend names. We should strive for these qualities in all of our tango.

The blurb you posted is all I ever hear about this special style. Nobody I have spoken with can define why it is different except for the exotic sounding name to the non-Argentine ear. (Hoping that does not sound rude.)

I am glad you started this topic. Hopefully somebody more knowledgeable may come along and shed some light!

opendoor

10-27-2008, 10:08 AM

I .. cant see what makes it so different from milonguero...

Its upper class Salón style Tango, far away from the port and the porteños which used to dance what we call Milonguero today. Sin Rumbo (http://www.sergioseguraproductions.com/clubsinrumbo.htm) lies in Urquiza. The Tango of the golden age tried to dissociate from its own roots. Tango de Salón means the dancing and the music style as well. This is an opportunity to invent a new name (new brand on an old thing).

UnfamiliarSameness

10-27-2008, 12:45 PM

I'm not going to attempt to define anything (i've no idea) but there's a whole load of interesting videos on Neymelo's youtube channel titled "Origins of Villa Urquiza Style" if you fancy a look.

There's one "Alberto y Esther" with plenty of commentary/comment about defining a style...if I remember correctly.

Ampster

10-27-2008, 01:37 PM

dchester

10-27-2008, 04:15 PM

As far as I know, Villa Urquiza is a derivative of Close embrace. It started from the neighborhood ("Villa" in Argentina, also used for "House") of Urquiza. Watching it, to the casual observer will not make a difference as the changes are so subtle. However, it makes a BIG difference when you dance with someone who dances that style. It feels very different. The movement, pressure, grounding, etc. I guess you have to experience it to tell the difference.

Here's a video of Jennifer Bratt and Ney Melo. Proponents thereof
I think this is what you were going for.

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Ampster

10-27-2008, 04:33 PM

I think this is what you were going for.

Yes, d! That was it. Thanks for the save. :rocker:

Angel HI

10-28-2008, 02:42 AM

Does anyone know what this is and what defines it as a style?

No.

I looked but I cant see what makes it so different from milonguero.

Nothing.

....but this does not stop people from bringing in an Argentine to teach a workshop in it.

The most important part of a successful business is marketing, and continually reinventing one's self/product. It is the reason why everything on store shelves today is "New and Improved".

To be honest, for me, this just looks like good solid tango ... about "feeling" and "beauty."

Copy/paste that blurb to any tango workshop flyer. These are qualities that transcend names. We should strive for these qualities in all of our tango.

Very well said.

As far as I know, Villa Urquiza is a derivative of Close embrace. It started from the neighborhood ("Villa" in Argentina, also used for "House") of Urquiza. Watching it, to the casual observer will not make a difference as the changes are so subtle. However, it makes a BIG difference when you dance with someone who dances that style. It feels very different. The movement, pressure, grounding, etc. I guess you have to experience it to tell the difference.

You and I usually agree, Amps, but on this one, I'll go halves. Your first few sentences are spot on, but as for VU being different, I must defer to Me's comments about just plain good tango, and Open's post.....

Its upper class Salón style Tango, far away from the port and the porteños which used to dance what we call Milonguero today. Sin Rumbo (http://www.sergioseguraproductions.com/clubsinrumbo.htm) lies in Urquiza. The Tango of the golden age tried to dissociate from its own roots. Tango de Salón means the dancing and the music style as well. This is an opportunity to invent a new name (new brand on an old thing).

Ampster

10-28-2008, 03:19 AM

You and I usually agree, Amps, but on this one, I'll go halves. Your first few sentences are spot on, but as for VU being different, I must defer to Me's comments about just plain good tango, and Open's post.....

Not a problem, Angel. What I know about VU is strictly anecdotal, and strictly my observations from having partners who do and don't dance this way. :cool:

As Me said, its all " good solid tango."

bordertangoman

10-28-2008, 05:38 AM

Not a problem, Angel. What I know about VU is strictly anecdotal, and strictly my observations from having partners who do and don't dance this way. :cool:

As Me said, its all " good solid tango."

So should I put a little copyright symbol after "Bordertango"? ;)

newbie

10-28-2008, 05:41 AM

Heather2007

10-28-2008, 06:17 AM

No.

The most important part of a successful business is marketing, and continually reinventing one's self/product. It is the reason why everything on store shelves today is "New and Improved".

And I can already see the impending domino effect. The more people start to feel the squeeze of the present global economic crisis the more "new and improved" (as you say) will hit the milonga market. Deffo! ;)

bordertangoman

10-28-2008, 06:32 AM

And I can already see the impending domino effect. The more people start to feel the squeeze of the present global economic crisis the more "new and improved" (as you say) will hit the milonga market. Deffo! ;)

hmm round here, there is a retrograde movement for "Real & Authentic" tango, a sort of guardia vieja, being led by the local General Galtieri! Galtieri has appointed himself Grand Inquisitor and finds what I teach heretical. Unfortunatley how Galtieri dances would hardly pass muster in Bs As.;)

Heather2007

10-28-2008, 06:59 AM

hmm round here, there is a retrograde movement for "Real & Authentic" tango, a sort of guardia vieja, being led by the local General Galtieri! Galtieri has appointed himself Grand Inquisitor and finds what I teach heretical. Unfortunatley how Galtieri dances would hardly pass muster in Bs As.;)

"Galtieri" - ha, ha, ha. Memories come flooding back: "Muuummm, Daaaadd. The Argentinians have invaded Scotland". ha, ha, ha.

And hey - nothing wrong with Real & Authentic (whatever that is anyway - my guess is one would probably have to dig through the deepest ends of Africa to dance the O-Riginal tango - I'll betchya). That said, I'll go with the heretical tango anyday. Tada! There you go. Something new, fresh and exciting to plug the market: Heretical Tango. I said it three times - and - it definitely has an enticingly teasing ring about it :-)

bordertangoman

10-28-2008, 07:25 AM

"Galtieri" - ha, ha, ha. Memories come flooding back: "Muuummm, Daaaadd. The Argentinians have invaded Scotland". ha, ha, ha.

And hey - nothing wrong with Real & Authentic (whatever that is anyway - my guess is one would probably have to dig through the deepest ends of Africa to dance the O-Riginal tango - I'll betchya). That said, I'll go with the heretical tango anyday. Tada! There you go. Something new, fresh and exciting to plug the market: Heretical Tango. I said it three times - and - it definitely has an enticingly teasing ring about it :-)

And I do love dancing to Heretical Music. Have you come across Tango Santo

"In the beginning, tango was influenced by African music, by rhythms brought by slaves that came on ships.

Around 1870, in Buenos Aires and Montevideo the dances of Mulatos (black Africans) was called Tango. The dance was open, like Candombe, or like the Milonga, was danced by a couple holding each other.

The compadritos (men of low life) imitated the Mulatos at the local cabarets and public houses, dancing with women of dubious reputation. That was the origin of the tango as we know it today.

Our intention is to get back to the African roots of Tango, and to mix them with the newest influence, electronic music, creating a new language based on the real origins of tango: the TANGO ELECTRO TRIBAL (Tribal Electro Tango). Made with samplers, synthesizers and traditional instruments put together in a music that's specially made for dancing. In couples or on your own, always perfect for dancing."

www .tangosantosounds.com (available on i-toons)

heretical or authentic its pretty wonderful stuff!

Heather2007

10-28-2008, 08:29 AM

And I do love dancing to Heretical Music. Have you come across Tango Santo ..... "In the beginning, tango was influenced by African music, by rhythms brought by slaves that came on ships.

Hmm - and so what we dance today is the hygienic Memorex version of the real thing :confused: No I haven't heard of Tango Santo - have coplied the link. Thanks for that.

bordertangoman

10-28-2008, 08:47 AM

A friend of mine noticed that there weren't any African Argentinians in Bs As when she was there with an Anglo-African. He was the only black man at the milongas.
What happened to them i wonder?

bordertangoman

10-28-2008, 10:06 AM

more heresy:

www. plastictango.com/flux.html

newbie

10-28-2008, 10:08 AM

What happened to them i wonder?

There are hypothesis here ht tp://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/argentina.html and they're not too flattering for Argentina.

Heather2007

10-28-2008, 10:21 AM

A friend of mine noticed that there weren't any African Argentinians in Bs As when she was there with an Anglo-African. He was the only black man at the milongas.
What happened to them i wonder?

Argentina being the only South American that didn't have a slave trade (I guess the Spaniards at the time made the wrong turning: I said left instead of straight ahead - dammit) probably being the reason why there aren't many black people to be seen in that neck of the woods - the few there having spilled over from neighbouring countries. Also, I read some while back (true: who knows?) that slave owners at the time in Uruguay would allow their slaves some free time and during this - respite - the slaves would get together and dance a dance they called Django. (Again: true: who knows?) I guess its one of those wonderful "who really knows?" best left as such, lest we discover it came out of Peckham. And Peckham certainly doesn't have the same er... you know:cool::p

bordertangoman

10-28-2008, 11:01 AM

Argentina being the only South American that didn't have a slave trade (I guess the Spaniards at the time made the wrong turning: I said left instead of straight ahead - dammit) probably being the reason why there aren't many black people to be seen in that neck of the woods - the few there having spilled over from neighbouring countries. Also, I read some while back (true: who knows?) that slave owners at the time in Uruguay would allow their slaves some free time and during this - respite - the slaves would get together and dance a dance they called Django. (Again: true: who knows?) I guess its one of those wonderful "who really knows?" best left as such, lest we discover it came out of Peckham. And Peckham certainly doesn't have the same er... you know:cool::p

Yes like the famous environmentalist Indian who was really Archibald Belaney from Hastings.
I think tango was reinvented by the ARgentinians after Rudoplh Valentino made Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, I mean what great PR.

Although Rodolfo Alfonso Raffaello Piero Filiberto Guglielmi (Valentino) claimed to be from Italy, was in fact Bertrand Higgins from Dagenham, ("not many people know that") though his grandfather was from Italy.;).

bordertangoman

10-28-2008, 11:21 AM

even Aston Villa doesn't have quite the same ring, but you wouldn't want to mess with an AV milonguero.

Steve Pastor

10-28-2008, 11:24 AM

Around 1870, in Buenos Aires and Montevideo the dances of Mulatos (black Africans) was called Tango. The dance was open, like Candombe, or like the Milonga, was danced by a couple holding each other.

mulatto 2. One of mixed black and white ancestry.

Much of the rest of that information is similarly not very accurate, except that, again, someone is wrapping their new thing in their (not very accurate) version of history.

i-toons, indeed.

Heather2007

10-28-2008, 11:27 AM

Although Rodolfo Alfonso Raffaello Piero Filiberto Guglielmi (Valentino) claimed to be from Italy, was in fact Bertrand Higgins from Dagenham, ("not many people know that") though his grandfather was from Italy.;).

No way. Really? I don't believe you. No. You just want me to go make a prat of myself at the water cooler. I'll Google the truth.

opendoor

10-28-2008, 11:37 AM

.. what happened to them i wonder? ..

Hi, do you know if there is a difference concerning this question between the old tango capitals BsAs, MV, and Rosario?

bordertangoman

10-28-2008, 12:07 PM

No way. Really? I don't believe you. No. You just want me to go make a prat of myself at the water cooler. I'll Google the truth.

Sorry ;) its from my grandad ( who was from Dagenham., honest injun, straight-up) used to do that to everyone. Start with something quite true and credible then start to bend it into a whopper that got more and more unbeleievable until somebody realised they were having their leg seriously pulled, ended in shouts of " Dad!" "Grandad!" "or "Bill!" depending on who you were.

and of course if the Grauniad says Frederico is the UKs best tango teacher it must be true!
( see the yahoo tango uk group)

I declare it October Fools Day!

Angel HI

10-28-2008, 05:09 PM

So should I put a little copyright symbol after "Bordertango"? ;)

I like it. You'll probably start getting calls for workshops all over the country. :)

Angel HI

10-28-2008, 05:21 PM

Among a series of privates in BsAs with the same teacher she made one session of Villa Urquiza. It was a variation of Salon (i.e we were on our axis, no leaning at all), with emphasis on the precision of the leader's steps (forward is forward and not slightly diagonal) and of the leading (you make the follower step *this* size and not one inch larger or shorter), and we were either stepping on the beat or pausing, no double-time/syncopation whatever.

My point, exactly. BS. It's dance...not math.

"....nothing wrong with Real & Authentic (whatever that is anyway - my guess is one would probably have to dig through the deepest ends of Africa to dance the O-Riginal tango - I'll betchya).

Though much of this statement is truer than one would think, I bolded the best part.

Angel HI

10-28-2008, 05:26 PM

A friend of mine noticed that there weren't any African Argentinians in Bs As when she was there with an Anglo-African. He was the only black man at the milongas.
What happened to them i wonder?

Actually, 2 of the most respected BsAs teachers in the world are of such origin.

Argentina being the only South American that didn't have a slave trade .....

Oooh! Incredibly incorrect. I will try to get access to a superb documentary by Dr Evangeline Franklin that depicts the amazing similarities between Argentine and U.S. history, inclusive of slavery, the music industry, and, of course, dance.

Steve Pastor

10-28-2008, 06:32 PM

The url Newbie posted covers it (slavery, blacks in Argentina) to some extent...
http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/argentina.html
The other source that I can recommend would be "Tango: The Art History of Love". It's the best book in English on AT history that I've seen, and has extensive information on the African side of the roots of Tango (without the European influences, however, and the combining of the two, it wouldn't be the AT we know).

bordertangoman

10-29-2008, 04:52 AM

Actually, 2 of the most respected BsAs teachers in the world are of such origin.
.

who are they?

newbie

10-29-2008, 05:17 AM

Facundo Posadas may be one.

Dave Bailey

10-29-2008, 06:08 AM

Blimey, this thread has gone weird...

Anyway, this Villa Urquiza style thingy is being advertised at Negracha for this friday, From here (http://www.negrachatangoclub.com/program.htm)

This Friday, Negracha Tango Club is pleased to host Andres "Tanguito" CEJAS & Genoveva FERNANDEZ, and excellent classic tango couple leading our main class and performing for us at 23.30pm. Theme of the Class: Tango VILLA URQUIZA STYLE.Interesting - I'm seriously tempted to pop along, if only to ask them a couple of questions as raised in this thread.

My gut feeling is that this is just the latest trendy trend, yawn yawn...Oh, and this also made me laugh:Don't forget ASTILLERO Tango Orquestra only live concerts in the UK this Sunday 2nd and Monday 3rd November. ASTILLERO WILL NOT BE PLAYING LIVE IN ANY MILONGA THIS TIME AROUND.
Based on their performance earlier in the month, Am I the only one to think "Well, thank **** for that"? ;)

pascal

10-29-2008, 06:18 AM

Based on their performance earlier in the month, Am I the only one to think "Well, thank **** for that"? ;)

They're not good? They'll be playing in Paris during a milonga on Nov 12th

bordertangoman

10-29-2008, 06:31 AM

Hmm I felt the same way about LA Portatil; I saw them on Youtube and definitely not my cup of tea; I dont like crooners and not paying good money to go and dance while some bloke is bawling away; my favourite acronym on many a cd is AGSRBS ( Another good song ruined by singing) I'm a strictly instrumental man with one or two exceptions; (eg Adriana Varela, Tom Waits, )

Dave Bailey

10-29-2008, 06:33 AM

They're not good? They'll be playing in Paris during a milonga on Nov 12th
Well, I'm only a mere mortal, I'd hate to have to pass judgement on The Musical Gods Who Walk Amongst Us...

Seriously, they were great to listen to, not great to dance to.

For more information I refer you to the lovely Ms Hedgehog's review (http://mshedgehog.blogspot.com/2008/10/negracha-wild-court.html) - and

There was a band, who played some merengue, great if you know how to dance merengue, which some did, and a kind of jazz-tango fusion. ... Making Milonga Sentimental (http://www.last.fm/music/Francisco+Canaro/_/Milonga+Sentimental?autostart) that difficult to dance to takes real dedication to your musical ideals.
:D

Heather2007

10-29-2008, 07:03 AM

Oooh! Incredibly incorrect. I will try to get access to a superb documentary by Dr Evangeline Franklin that depicts the amazing similarities between Argentine and U.S. history, inclusive of slavery, the music industry, and, of course, dance.

Thanks for that Angel as when an (gasp) Argentinian was giving me a little history of Argentina I was surprised to learn that they never had a slave trade, especially when one takes into consideration the field day the European spaniards were having in that period and across the whole of that regino as well as the Carribbean. "No we never did," I was told and so I just put it down to what I call the Swiss Effect - remaining immune from the horrors of the hell that is breaking loose all around you. Then and now;)). So yes, as I'd suspected/expected. Hmm..have taken a note of Dr Evangeline Franklin's name...Thanks. (I knew it). :notworth:

Dave Bailey

10-29-2008, 10:10 AM

"No we never did," I was told and so I just put it down to what I call the Swiss Effect - remaining immune from the horrors of the hell that is breaking loose all around you. Then and now;)). So yes, as I'd suspected/expected. Hmm..have taken a note of Dr Evangeline Franklin's name...Thanks. (I knew it). :notworth:
Blimey... I've just taken a look at the Wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro_Argentine

It's a bit of a mess... I've done some tidying-up, but it'll need more work. However, it does have some useful information.

Zoopsia59

10-29-2008, 10:57 AM

Thanks for that Angel as when an (gasp) Argentinian was giving me a little history of Argentina I was surprised to learn that they never had a slave trade

Yeah. They never gave refuge to nazis either. And they've never heard of Eichmann

On the other hand, Shindler went to Argentina as well, but didn't stay (although I believe Frau Shindler did.)

Ampster

10-29-2008, 01:19 PM

Thanks for that Angel as when an (gasp) Argentinian was giving me a little history of Argentina I was surprised to learn that they never had a slave trade, especially when one takes into consideration the field day the European spaniards were having in that period and across the whole of that regino as well as the Carribbean. "No we never did," I was told and so I just put it down to what I call the Swiss Effect - remaining immune from the horrors of the hell that is breaking loose all around you. Then and now;)). So yes, as I'd suspected/expected. Hmm..have taken a note of Dr Evangeline Franklin's name...Thanks. (I knew it). :notworth:

Technically, No, they did not. They were devout Catholic. The Holy Roman Church banned slavery under pain of ex-communication. HOWEVER, they did practice a form of social class segregation/oppression which included indentured servitude (Encomienda system). Its quite similar to the Caste system. So, from an socio-economic point of view, Yes.

What was this thread all about again? :doh:

Zoopsia59

10-29-2008, 01:37 PM

What was this thread all about again? :doh:

Some dance thingy.

Angel HI

10-29-2008, 05:40 PM

who are they?
Facundo Posadas may be one.

Yes. This is correct. He told me there was another whose name escapes me. I'm trying to get in touch w/ him to find out.

Angel HI

10-29-2008, 05:46 PM

.....when an (gasp) Argentinian was giving me a little history of Argentina I was surprised to learn that they never had a slave trade, ...... "No we never did," I was told

Aware that today's youth seem to know little of the world w/o a cell phone, color tele, pc or mac, it is still astounding to me that someone would make that statement. Vangy's lectures are quite thorough and well known, and the other articles referenced in this thread are readily available.

Maybe just a "Not in my yard." thingy going on there. :rolleyes:

Zoopsia59

10-29-2008, 05:58 PM

Aware that today's youth seem to know little of the world w/o a cell phone, color tele, pc or mac, it is still astounding to me that someone would make that statement. Vangy's lectures are quite thorough and well known, and the other articles referenced in this thread are readily available.

Maybe just a "Not in my yard." thingy going on there. :rolleyes:

Cultures rewrite history all the time. From talking to a Japanese friend, he was not taught much of anything about the atrocities Japan commited in WWII and learned about them only from talking to Chinese co-workers who consider VJ day and the day the bomb was dropped to be days of celebration rather than mourning. He couldn't understand how anyone could possibly react that way to the dropping of the atomic bomb until his coworkers enlightened him to the Chinese perspective on Japan's role in the war. He grew up in a Japan dedicated to peace, and the cruelty of the war years are glossed over.

And plenty of people all over the world have their head in the sand about slavery TODAY even in their own country.

So it doesn't surprise me at all that Argentines may not have gotten an objective lesson in their own sordid past.

Angel HI

10-29-2008, 06:00 PM

What was this thread all about again? :doh:[/quote]

:p The latest AT marketing :spam: ..... Villa Urquiza. Now before someone goes for my head http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/characters/character0056.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=characters/character0056.gif), I Like VU....OK.

Dave Bailey

10-30-2008, 04:51 AM

:p The latest AT marketing :spam: ..... Villa Urquiza. Now before someone goes for my head http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/characters/character0056.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=characters/character0056.gif), I Like VU....OK.
Can someone actually explain what it is though?

Because I'm now hopelessly confused...

Dave Bailey

10-30-2008, 04:55 AM

So it doesn't surprise me at all that Argentines may not have gotten an objective lesson in their own sordid past.
Meh, that's the same for every country. Argentinians can be as ignorant and prejudiced as the rest of us, basically.

I'm going to work on that Wikipedia article though, I think it's worth some effort...

bordertangoman

10-30-2008, 04:59 AM

Meh, that's the same for every country. Argentinians can be as ignorant and prejudiced as the rest of us, basically.

I'm going to work on that Wikipedia article though, I think it's worth some effort...

Some of it looked like it had been auto-translated and I was getting deja vu in some passages!

Good luck DB

Heather2007

10-30-2008, 06:33 AM

Yeah. They never gave refuge to nazis either. And they've never heard of Eichmann

On the other hand, Shindler went to Argentina as well, but didn't stay (although I believe Frau Shindler did.)

Hee, hee, hee

bordertangoman

10-30-2008, 06:36 AM

I think this has become the Argentinian Whispers thread........

spot the post which had something true in it???????

Heather2007

10-30-2008, 06:36 AM

Technically, No, they did not. They were devout Catholic. The Holy Roman Church banned slavery under pain of ex-communication. HOWEVER, they did practice a form of social class segregation/oppression which included indentured servitude (Encomienda system). Its quite similar to the Caste system. So, from an socio-economic point of view, Yes.

So, they didn't. Crikey, I'll let it go. Let it go, Heather, let it go. Now, what was this thread all about?:o

Dave Bailey

10-30-2008, 07:38 AM

Right, I'm going to this flippin' class, and I'm going to ask some serious questions about this style. I've got a suspicion it's all smoke and mirrors, but maybe I'm just being cynical.

Heather2007

10-30-2008, 07:52 AM

Right, I'm going to this flippin' class, and I'm going to ask some serious questions about this style. I've got a suspicion it's all smoke and mirrors, but maybe I'm just being cynical.

Ha, ha, ha..sounds as if you've been spending much time debating over whether to go or not DB. Do let me/us know how it goes. and p.s. Don't Mention the Slave Trade - Hxx:)

Dave Bailey

10-30-2008, 08:32 AM

Ha, ha, ha..sounds as if you've been spending much time debating over whether to go or not DB. Do let me/us know how it goes. and p.s. Don't Mention the Slave Trade - Hxx:)
Well, Stefano and Alex are teaching at Conway Hall (the "Tango The Argentino Way" guys have renamed themselves "Carablanca" apparently) so I was thinking of doing that.

Must not "think".

Must "do" :)

[/yoda]

bordertangoman

10-30-2008, 08:37 AM

Heather2007

10-30-2008, 10:01 AM

Well, Stefano and Alex are teaching at Conway Hall (the "Tango The Argentino Way" guys have renamed themselves "Carablanca" apparently) so I was thinking of doing that.

Must not "think".

Must "do" :)

[/yoda]

Yep: Cognito ergo sum (I think therefore I am). Alex and Stef you can study with anytime. Check out this other dance at Negs and report back. :-)

dchester

10-30-2008, 01:58 PM

Can someone actually explain what it is though?

Because I'm now hopelessly confused...
I did a brief search of some sites. Inside this lengthly web page was a paragraph that somewhat attempted to answer the question.

http://tango.romanvirdi.com/villa-urquiza-style.htm Historic family clubs like "Sunderland" or "Sin Rumbo" had their addresses there and benefited from the genius of "Milonguita", the legendary dancer who never went up on a stage ("It is not worthy of a real milonguero") but left his legacy to names like Gerardo Portalea, EL Turco Jose, "Finito" Ramon Rivera, "Lampazo" Jose Vazquez, Miguel Balmaceda and of course "Virulazo", the one and only, who came to New York with Tango Argentino. Many of them are now gone but the "Milonguita'style", today known as "Villa Urquiza" remains with its firm, straight, elegant way of delivering the foot in long steps, caressing "el piso" simply and continuously but explosing suddenly, if need be, in a display of complex figures that the "open" space between dancers allows. Never losing embrace, never losing contact.Also, the post by Sergio at the end of the same page might be helpful as well.

Angel HI

10-31-2008, 04:17 AM

Dave Bailey

10-31-2008, 05:51 AM

I did a brief search of some sites.
Thanks - much appreciated.

So, to sum up, it's long steps and complex figures.

Meh. Don't fancy that class now...

tangonuevo

10-31-2008, 01:10 PM

Well that blows the Argentine teacher's teaching (an earlier post in this thread...*too lazy to find it*) of these "...exactly 6" long steps...". Of course, we all suspected this outcome, eventually, anyway.
I think that the criticism directed at VU style as simply being a marketing gimmick is very much misplaced and rather unbecoming. There is ample evidence, some provided by reference here in this thread, that VU is a real style originating with real dancers in a real neighborhood. That you are unable to make the fine distinctions required to recognize this is not a cause for such criticism.

I have been told that swing dancers in LA back in the late 30's could tell which high school other dancers came from by their stylistic differences. So why should BaAs be any different??

The VU that I know is upright, precise and outstandingly elegant. It needn't comprise complex figures - just the elegance and precision. All else is personal. So that isn't for everyone; but it doesn't deserve a bad rap just because you can't, or don't choose, to dance in that style.

Angel HI

11-01-2008, 03:34 AM

I think that the criticism directed at VU style as simply being a marketing gimmick is very much misplaced and rather unbecoming. There is ample evidence, some provided by reference here in this thread, that VU is a real style originating with real dancers in a real neighborhood. That you are unable to make the fine distinctions required to recognize this is not a cause for such criticism.

The VU that I know is upright, precise and outstandingly elegant. It needn't comprise complex figures - just the elegance and precision. All else is personal. So that isn't for everyone; but it doesn't deserve a bad rap just because you can't, or don't choose, to dance in that style.

First of all, there isn't anything in AT that I can not dance. Bold statement...yes. But, I have been studying/dancing (some while living in BsAs for a year and a half), various styles of AT since 1984. Of course, there are styles, music, etc., that I do not prefer, but, as a teacher, must know, and must know how to teach. Simply that I do not prefer it doesn't mean that I do not like it. I love AT and all of its variances and related dances.

Secondly, VU is not the only style of AT that is danced upright and precise w/o complex patterns. As a matter of fact, this is the more prominent style danced most everywhere except in tango for export. The preciseness has more to do with correctness than a particular style, much of which is not attained quickly for those outside of the Arg. culture simply b/c it is a different culture, different feel. different understanding and respect for the dance.

I will say again that the reason many were not exposed years ago to VU was, not totally, but in part, b/c it was not considered a specialized style...just tango. VU, as many things, separated itself from as a specialized style out of necessity for the growth and sustenance of the art. We see it in many things, not just tango. How far would a product go if it were only one; never changed; never grew; didn't keep up w/ the competition. This is not a slam nor a mystery. There are 12 different scents and 5 different ways to have a Glade freshener in your home for the same reason.

I am not against VU. I am merely a proponent for it being just good tango not really that different from other good tangos. Does it have the signature of a certain region? Yes. But much the same as there is a NY Hustle; Chicago Hustle; Latin Hustle, blah, blah, blah. They are all good, and pretty much the same w/ some regional tweak or quirk that identifies it as being from that region...not as a better or specialized form. Perhaps you should have PM'd me or asked someone about me before making the assumption that I am unable to make the fine distinctions required to recognize, or can not dance VU.

newbie

11-01-2008, 03:58 AM

The VU that I know is upright, precise and outstandingly elegant. It needn't comprise complex figures - just the elegance and precision. All else is personal.

There must be something else. If there is something at all. With just elegance and precision then many styles can have a VU variant. Osvaldo Paiva Jr's is VU, Pulpo is VU, and so on. Any maestro who has refined his style (any style) through the years makes it precise and elegant.

If you can recognize VU when you see it then it's nice because we can only assume/infere what it is. And yes the hypothesis that it's only a fashionable marketing name is a sensible conclusion. Please examplify your knowledge with a dozen of Youtube samples; this one is VU, this one is not , this one is not, this one....

dchester

11-01-2008, 01:01 PM

There must be something else. If there is something at all. With just elegance and precision then many styles can have a VU variant. Osvaldo Paiva Jr's is VU, Pulpo is VU, and so on. Any maestro who has refined his style (any style) through the years makes it precise and elegant.

If you can recognize VU when you see it then it's nice because we can only assume/infere what it is. And yes the hypothesis that it's only a fashionable marketing name is a sensible conclusion. Please examplify your knowledge with a dozen of Youtube samples; this one is VU, this one is not , this one is not, this one....
How can a hypothesis be a sensible conclusion? A hypothesis doesn't even rise to the level of a theory.

FWIW, I was told that in times past, many areas had there own style of Tango. Could it be that the Villa Urquiza style simply became more popular than some other styles, and that is why some people don't realize that it's not the only style?

newbie

11-01-2008, 06:17 PM

How can a hypothesis be a sensible conclusion? A hypothesis doesn't even rise to the level of a theory.

When there is no certainty, which was precisely my point, then the conclusion is, among the various hypotheses, the one that has the highest probability, but even this one remains a mere hypothesis.

And Mr Subtlety drives home another point.

11-02-2008, 01:19 AM

Does anyone know what this is and what defines it as a style?

Page 8 and counting... I've yet to read anything that compels me to believe this is nothing more than a fancy name. The closest I've read is where Ampster mentioned a difference in the feel of the dance.

11-02-2008, 01:13 AM

The VU that I know is upright, precise and outstandingly elegant. It needn't comprise complex figures - just the elegance and precision. All else is personal....

Since you study Villa Urquiza, I ask that you please share what makes it a style in respect to the genre of Argentine Tango. Discussions of precision of lead/follow, elegance, subtlety, etc., are of no interest to me because I believe these are qualities of movement that should be practiced by all good partnership dancers. (You go to the ballroom boards and tell to study Villa Urquiza style of Argentine Tango to master elegance and precision and they'll have you for breakfast!)

tangonuevo

11-02-2008, 09:59 AM

First of all, there isn't anything in AT that I can not dance. Bold statement...yes. .....
I did not intend to offend. I don't know you, your dancing or your teaching. I can only go by what I read in the thread and what I, perhaps erroneously, read was an opinion that VU was merely a marketing gimmick and did not truly represent a neighborhood style as danced by the locals in VU. Yes, I believe that VU is also considered "Traditional Salon Style", but it still originated with dancers in particular a neighborhood and there is nothing at all wrong with respecting those origins.

Since you are a well known tango maestro, it might be helpful to those of us who only know you by your forum name if your profile were a little more enlightening, or provided a link to a site with more information, or even a link to a youtube video that someone may have uploaded.

With respect to VU, I can do no better than provide a quote from an acquaintance of mine that many of you have probably seen on tango-l:

Sergio wrote:
//QUOTE. I grew up in Villa Urquiza, I should know the clubs of my neighborhood and what styles of tango people dance there. Sin Rumbo and Sunderland are two clubs where the Salon Traditional style is taught and danced every week both in open and close embrace. The openness or closeness of the embrace naturally will vary with the available space at the floor and the time when you arrive. Open early or late when there is space and close embrace when it is crowded.
People come to these clubs from all over the world and portenos from all over the city to learn the Traditional Salon Style . Some people all over the world are calling the tango danced there "Villa Urquiza Style".
//END QUOTE

I have been told that every dancer in BsAs calls what he/she dances "salon", and I was strongly advised that what we non-portenos call salon is better called VU to make clear that we are not referring, for example, to Susana Miller's style of dance which practitioners in BsAs also refer to as "salon". To them, salon simply means social, as opposed to stage tango.

11-02-2008, 10:48 AM

Since you are a well known tango maestro, it might be helpful to those of us who only know you by your forum name if your profile were a little more enlightening, or provided a link to a site with more information, or even a link to a youtube video that someone may have uploaded.

Or maybe you should just read the forums more. We have many professionals here who do not choose to brandish their names for various reasons. Not everybody is here to throw a name around to hock lessons and workshops, and when they do, people do not like it. :|

Angel HI

11-02-2008, 11:49 AM

I did not intend to offend.

No offense taken. I guess I might have sounded a wee miffed. I'm not. ;)

Yes, I believe that VU is also considered "Traditional Salon Style", but it still originated with dancers in particular a neighborhood and there is nothing at all wrong with respecting those origins.

Perhaps, I said it poorly (bad move for a linguist), but this is all that I meant. VU is no different than all others, really. Me, Ampster, and others have posted on the qualities that make AT good, and I really see no difference in VU. If we were talking Swing, and someone said, "Well, where I come from, we don't hold the lady's hand like that; we hold it like this.", and then proceed to offer that as a course in the Down Home Neighborhood style, I'd say that they were just takign plain, good swing...tweaking something about it, and marketing it as "New and Improved".

Sergio wrote:
//QUOTE. I grew up in Villa Urquiza, I should know the clubs of my neighborhood and what styles of tango people dance there. Sin Rumbo and Sunderland are two clubs where the Salon Traditional style is taught and danced every week both in open and close embrace. The openness or closeness of the embrace naturally will vary with the available space at the floor and the time when you arrive. Open early or late when there is space and close embrace when it is crowded.
People come to these clubs from all over the world and portenos from all over the city to learn the Traditional Salon Style . Some people all over the world are calling the tango danced there "Villa Urquiza Style".
//END QUOTE

Good quote. Seems to support what I'm saying, exactly.

I have been told that every dancer in BsAs calls what he/she dances "salon", and I was strongly advised that what we non-portenos call salon is better called VU to make clear that we are not referring, for example, to Susana Miller's style of dance which practitioners in BsAs also refer to as "salon". To them, salon simply means social, as opposed to stage tango.

It is true that in BsAs it is all simply salon. Perhaps, the confusion comes in the need to over-classify everything into some sort of neat and tidy little box so that nonportenos can better understand it. Suzanna, made up a term, "Milonguero" to identify local/social dancing from fantasia/tango for export (the show stuff that the world was introduced to at the time). The more appropriate term would have been apilado or almagro, but these might not have meant as much to non-argentines. And, it might go w/o saying that milonguero style dancing is not attributed to Miller...just the name.

dchester

11-02-2008, 12:07 PM

When there is no certainty, which was precisely my point, then the conclusion is, among the various hypotheses, the one that has the highest probability, but even this one remains a mere hypothesis. When there is no certainty, why would one be drawing a conclusion?

And Mr Subtlety drives home another point.
Do you have an issue with me or my posts?

Angel HI

11-02-2008, 12:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by newbie http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=623298#post623298)
And Mr Subtlety drives home another point.

Do you have an issue with me or my posts?

I thought he was referring to himself.

dchester

11-02-2008, 12:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by newbie http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=623298#post623298)
And Mr Subtlety drives home another point.

I thought he was referring to himself.
OK, my bad. I guess I didn't get enough sleep last night (was out at a milonga).

Angel HI

11-02-2008, 12:20 PM

Ampster

11-02-2008, 01:12 PM

As was I...sleepier than I've ever been. Took full advantage of the extra hour after, though. http://media.funsmileys.com/smileys/sleepy003.gif (http://www.funsmileys.com/smileys/moods/sleepy/sleepy-3-378.php)

Went to a Requiem Mass (All souls day. It's a Catholic thing). Had a most outstanding dinner party. Went to a milonga, then to an after milonga, milonga... I'm going to pass out now.

Good night friends in Tango...:???:zzzzzzzz

opendoor

11-02-2008, 01:24 PM

.. in BsAs it is all simply salon....

therefor I´m still interested in the spanish expression for the Salón- or V-Embrace. Has someone an idea, now?

Angel HI

11-03-2008, 03:20 AM

therefor I´m still interested in the spanish expression for the Salón- or V-Embrace.

Long time tango enthusiast Steven Brown writes......

".... In Buenos Aires and other parts of Argentina, tango is danced in a spectrum of individualistic or personal styles. Many Argentines do not accept a categorization of their own dancing by any broad stylistic name. They simply say they are dancing tango, their own style, or the style of their neighborhood or city.

A few confuse the issue further by identifying their own style by a name that other dancers associate with a different style. Consequently, to clearly describe the characteristics of various styles is challenging, potentially controversial, and possibly misleading. Nonetheless, if we regard style to mean an approach to dancing that creates incompatibilities with other approaches and has a sufficient number of adherents who stick firmly to the listed elements, I think it is possible to create rough definitions for a number of distinguishable styles.

Known as "tango de salon," salon-style tango is typically danced with an upright body posture with the two dancers maintaining separate axes. The embrace can be close or open, but it is typically offset and in a V. When salon-style is danced in a close embrace, which is common in Buenos Aires, the couple still typically loosens their embrace slightly to accomodate the turns and allow the woman to rotate more freely. When salon-style is danced in an open embrace, which is socially uncommon in Buenos Aires, the distance between the partners allows the woman to execute her turns more freely and pivot without requiring much independent movement between her hips and torso."

newbie

11-03-2008, 03:52 AM

therefor I´m still interested in the spanish expression for the Salón- or V-Embrace. Has someone an idea, now?

The spanish expression for the Salón is Salón.
The spanish expression for the V-Embrace is Salón.

Now, Salón is not everything. They do have categories. Tango for tourists, tango for export...

bordertangoman

11-03-2008, 06:10 AM

bastet

11-03-2008, 09:50 AM

Long time tango enthusiast Steven Brown writes......

".... In Buenos Aires and other parts of Argentina, tango is danced in a spectrum of individualistic or personal styles. Many Argentines do not accept a categorization of their own dancing by any broad stylistic name. They simply say they are dancing tango, their own style, or the style of their neighborhood or city.

A few confuse the issue further by identifying their own style by a name that other dancers associate with a different style. Consequently, to clearly describe the characteristics of various styles is challenging, potentially controversial, and possibly misleading. Nonetheless, if we regard style to mean an approach to dancing that creates incompatibilities with other approaches and has a sufficient number of adherents who stick firmly to the listed elements, I think it is possible to create rough definitions for a number of distinguishable styles.

Known as "tango de salon," salon-style tango is typically danced with an upright body posture with the two dancers maintaining separate axes. The embrace can be close or open, but it is typically offset and in a V. When salon-style is danced in a close embrace, which is common in Buenos Aires, the couple still typically loosens their embrace slightly to accomodate the turns and allow the woman to rotate more freely. When salon-style is danced in an open embrace, which is socially uncommon in Buenos Aires, the distance between the partners allows the woman to execute her turns more freely and pivot without requiring much independent movement between her hips and torso."

Don't forget this is also yet another person's personal take on the situation. The web is filled with personal opinions on these things.

In the first paragraph he says that they (people in BsAs) don't accept categorization of tango but in the very next breath says they identify with the style of their own neighborhood...which...IMO... is categorization...

Don't forget, up until the last 10 years, tango was mostly taught in a mysterious, just watch me and do what I do approach that thankfully is not used much any more. Just because people did it that way before, or didn't care to analyse what they did or give a style name to what they danced, doesn't invalidate the categorization of it now.

He also points out that each of the styles has a certain approach, and may even have imcompatibilities with other approaches...so I am finding most of what he is writing to support both sides of the case that is usually made with regard to tango, its various embraces, approaches, style names and so forth.

I've always had the hardest time understanding why so many people get up in arms about there being "only one tango" and want to force it to be encompassed only by one way of thinking of it because it all had one name (the nuance of which seems to be lost in translation) in BsAs. And I've always been dismayed that some find it unacceptable that yes, tango is tango, but there are a lot of different approaches and methodologies, some of which create incompatibility and the need for adjustment if you switch over to one of the other methodologies (i.e. salon v versus flat on close embrace methods) and even some people I know that purport to be experts don't avail themselves of any other knowledge than the one they feel is the "true tango path" and everything else is wrong and won't accept that there are other ways of approaching the dance.

Can't it be a particle and a wave too?

Angel HI

11-04-2008, 03:00 AM

In the first paragraph he says that they (people in BsAs) don't accept categorization of tango but in the very next breath says they identify with the style of their own neighborhood...which...IMO... is categorization...

Agreed, but his point is that each categorization, for lack of a better word, had no real named distinction. It was all just tango.

Don't forget, up until the last 10 years, tango was mostly taught in a mysterious, just watch me and do what I do approach that thankfully is not used much any more. Just because people did it that way before, or didn't care to analyse what they did or give a style name to what they danced, doesn't invalidate the categorization of it now.

In this you might be correct.

He also points out that each of the styles has a certain approach, and may even have imcompatibilities with other approaches...so I am finding most of what he is writing to support both sides of the case that is usually made with regard to tango, its various embraces, approaches, style names and so forth.[/quotes]

Which is basically my point. There is no need to classify either one sort as being right/wrong/better. Neither is there a need to overclassify by constantly recreating the obvious. When it comes to this, it is largely commercialism. And, as I said, I understand this part of it, as well.

The orig. question was what made VU different? The real answer is nothing from that which makes all good tango good.

[quote=bastet;623953]I've always had the hardest time understanding why so many people get up in arms about there being "only one tango" and want to force it to be encompassed only by one way of thinking of it because it all had one name (the nuance of which seems to be lost in translation) in BsAs.

My original point, exactly.

Dave Bailey

11-04-2008, 06:01 AM

Carrying on the completely-off-topic discussion about Afro-Argentines, the Wikipedia article is now looking much better:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro_Argentine

More importantly (for us :) ), there's now a whole new section about Tango:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro_Argentine#Tango

(No, I didn't do it - others who have actual knowledge did).

It's quite informative, actually.

bordertangoman

11-04-2008, 06:32 AM

Heather2007

11-04-2008, 07:37 AM

there'sa anothr link in there:
to "Blacks in Argentina - a Disappearing Act"
http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/argentina.html

Interesting read, thanks for that.

Zoopsia59

11-04-2008, 12:46 PM

there'sa anothr link in there:
to "Blacks in Argentina - a Disappearing Act"
http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/argentina.html

Interesting... thanks for posting

tangonuevo

11-04-2008, 01:44 PM

The orig. question was what made VU different? The real answer is nothing from that which makes all good tango good.
So I am confused. Are you saying that there are no stylistic differences between different versions of "good" tango? For example, does Fabian Salas dance good (Nuevo) tango? Does Susana Miller dance good (Milonguero) tango? I suspect that Susana would argue that both are examples of excellent tango, but that they are stylistically very different and that she strongly (!) prefers Milonguero.

VU is quite different from what Susana dances. To say that VU is stylistically no different from Milonguero seems quite a stretch!

11-04-2008, 02:29 PM

VU is quite different ....
How is it different? Why is it different?

We were discussing an in-line voleo in the videos thread. We agreed it was led, and I believe we would also agree that it was elegant and precise. Were they dancing VU?

What would that same voleo look like in VU? Is the leg higher? Lower? Do you make lines? Break lines? What is the timing? How do I know somebody is dancing VU when they create voleo? How is it unique?

tangonuevo

11-04-2008, 03:19 PM

Me: The full sentence was:
VU is quite different from what Susana dances.
1. First I would like to get agreement (if we do agree) that not all "good" tango is stylistically the same, with nuevo and milonguero being more-or-less two extremes. This was what I was specifically driving at in the last post. Do you agree with this??

2. On the whole, I believe that VU is the prototype for "classic" salon. Classic salon (VU) styling wants one to totally "Lead with your chest". I have even had an excellent (and also well known) "classic salon" teacher attach strings from my right shoulder to my partner's left and my left to her right with the requirement that I dance a song with the strings constantly with the same tension.

I have also had an excellent (and also well known) nuevo teacher (Argentine - not local US) get quite upset with me for trying to maintain the chest to chest relationship that the "salon" instructor required. He said that it was good "classic" styling, but it was too restrictive for nuevo tango. The nuevo style requires that the relationship between the partners be _very_ flexible and not constrained by a fixed embrace. Nuevo also requires that by a lead be able to initiate moves with the arms and hands, VU does not. Etc. Very different feeling to the dance, very different style.

Ampster

11-04-2008, 04:05 PM

Because of the current argument going on, here's my quip about AT naming conventions, and categorizations.

Fabian Salas, Inventor (credited) of the nuevo tango style of dancing was interviewed (http://totango.net/salas2.html) about his views regarding the style of Tango he pioneered.

When asked "Then do we call what your doing... Tango Nuevo?"
Fabian's answer: "No, Argentine Tango. That's what we like. It's an evolving thing that has arrived where it is today."

The point I'm trying to make is this. Even the great Fabian Salas himself does not see the need to overcategorize this stuff. Why should we?

The full transcripts of the interview I am referring to are here: Part_1_Click_here (http://totango.net/salas.html) ; Part_2_Click_here (http://totango.net/salas2.html)

11-04-2008, 04:32 PM

First I would like to get agreement (if we do agree) that not all "good" tango is stylistically the same

Exactly. Now we are on the same page. Now you understand why I take issue with style being confused with good dancing. To define VU as a style by saying it places emphasis on precision, lead and follow, and elegance is extremely vague, because these are not issues of style at all. These are necessities for all good partnership dancing that go beyond tango, and are not to be confused with style.

2. On the whole, I believe that VU is the prototype for "classic" salon. Classic salon (VU) styling wants one to totally "Lead with your chest".

The nuevo style requires that the relationship between the partners be _very_ flexible and not constrained by a fixed embrace. Nuevo also requires that by a lead be able to initiate moves with the arms and hands, VU does not. Etc. Very different feeling to the dance, very different style.

I want to stress that I am not trying to be difficult. I want to know what VU is. It is the origin of salon... but it is not salon? It is very different from tango nuevo. That is what I understand from what you have written. I want to know more about what makes VU a unique style. These comparisons you have made are no good for me. :(

I would really appreciate it if people could post video clips (Youtube, for example) with notations. For example, somebody could post a video and say, "Please look at 1:43. [this] is unique to Villa Urquiza style. Now look at 2:20. [this] is definitive of this unique style of tango dancing."

Thank you for your time and help! It is very appreciated. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/liebe/love-smiley-009.gif

Angel HI

11-04-2008, 04:39 PM

So I am confused. Are you saying that there are no stylistic differences between different versions of "good" tango?

No. Not at all. Of course, there are stylistic differences. we understand that dance is made up of 3 things; rhythm, timing, styling. When one changes either of these, they change the dance.

VU is quite different from what Susana dances.

Agreed. 100%. But, does that mean that what she does is not as good, or that what she does is better? I understand, and have no issue with classifying or teaching styles. My issue is when teachers/students try to overclassify stylings as new/different types of tango.

Thanks, Amps. You always seem to find a simpler way of backing me up. To be a linguist, I don't always do a good job of making myself easily understood.

Fabian Salas, Inventor (credited) of the nuevo tango style of dancing was interviewed (http://totango.net/salas2.html) about his views regarding the style of Tango he pioneered.

When asked "Then do we call what your doing... Tango Nuevo?"
Fabian's answer: "No, Argentine Tango. That's what we like. It's an evolving thing that has arrived where it is today."

The point I'm trying to make is this. Even the great Fabian Salas himself does not see the need to overcategorize this stuff. Why should we?

The full transcripts of the interview I am referring to are here: Part_1_Click_here (http://totango.net/salas.html) ; Part_2_Click_here (http://totango.net/salas2.html)

tangonuevo

11-04-2008, 05:37 PM

I would really appreciate it if people could post video clips (Youtube, for example) with notations. For example, somebody could post a video and say, "Please look at 1:43. [this] is unique to Villa Urquiza style. Now look at 2:20. [this] is definitive of this unique style of tango dancing."
Not to over classify, but from an article dealing with VU stule, we have:

For El Chino Perico - a legend in his own - is one of
the last masters milongueros. This living bridge
connects today through the Villa Urquiza style
("Milonguita" was his idol and teacher) a whole new
generation of contemporary names perhaps more
"familiar" nowdays. Names like Miguel Angel and
Osvaldo Zotto, Ricardo Herera or Sebastian Misse.

So given that Zotto is part of the contemporary VU style, go here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BAno8kvZuQ&NR=1
I believe that this is an exerpt from Zotto's "How to dance Tango" series produced for Solo Tango in Argentina.

This is _very_ distinct from say Ricardo Vidort (& Liz Haight)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2puX7uOCDg

These are visibly very different styles. The first focuses on elegance. The second on the quality of the connection and the internal feel of the dance and is hard to see from the ourtside. The milonguero style has almost nothing to do with how it looks - only with how it feels and how it works. If you ever get a chance to dance with one of the remaining Milongueros, or with Susana Miller or Liz Haight or someone of their ilk, it will be a enormous eye opener. At least it was for me!

Angel HI

11-05-2008, 01:22 AM

So given that Zotto is part of the contemporary VU style, go here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BAno8kvZuQ&NR=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BAno8kvZuQ&NR=1)

The milonguero style has almost nothing to do with how it looks - only with how it feels and how it works.

I have already agreed that good tango need not be microclassified, and that perhaps you are referring to identification of style traits. If so, OK. yet, I have known Osvaldo for years, and have never heard him refer to what he dances as VU. Again, if elegance, to you, needs a name (VU), then so be it.

Dave Bailey

11-05-2008, 09:44 AM

I still don't get it.

What is VU style? :confused:

Am I missing something?

newbie

11-05-2008, 02:03 PM

Names like Miguel Angel and
Osvaldo Zotto, Ricardo Herera or Sebastian Misse.

Ricardo Herera? :confused:

bastet

11-05-2008, 07:36 PM

So I am confused. Are you saying that there are no stylistic differences between different versions of "good" tango? For example, does Fabian Salas dance good (Nuevo) tango? Does Susana Miller dance good (Milonguero) tango? I suspect that Susana would argue that both are examples of excellent tango, but that they are stylistically very different and that she strongly (!) prefers Milonguero.

VU is quite different from what Susana dances. To say that VU is stylistically no different from Milonguero seems quite a stretch!

Most certainly- anyone I know who has been trained by her seems to be most emphatic about what they are dancing.

I think the thing I keep seeing that probably needs clearing up is that appears sometimes that some people think by categorizing stylisically people are trying to say that one tango style is better than another. I think this is an untrue inferrance for one thing. I've never read that in to hardly anyone's comments. (Sure you're going to have an odd one out now and then)

I don't find anything wrong with having a few general categories for things that use different techniques that tend to be associated mainly with that particular style (like body position, embrace type and lack of or use of dissociation). I don't think categories based on that are anything at all like saying one is better than another and are a great training tool.

Angel HI

11-05-2008, 07:40 PM

I still don't get it. What is VU style? :confused:

According to Tangonuevo, apparently it's AT danced elegantly. Of course, immediately we are faced w/ what that is. Is it the same to/for everyone? If yes, then does that mean that all other styles are not elegant? And, if not, then why does VU have the patent on elegant tango?

Or, maybe, I just don't know. Maybe, I just should have let him answer. :(

Angel HI

11-05-2008, 07:58 PM

I think the thing I keep seeing that probably needs clearing up is that appears sometimes that some people think by categorizing stylisically people are trying to say that one tango style is better than another.

This was/is not my reference, at all. My point was/is that I believe we overclassify AT to a fault. At some point we mock the dance, and lose the essence, by nitpicking it to death...paralysis by analysis. If you step w/ the toe, then you are dancing A; if you step w/ the heel, you are dancing B; and, if you step w/ the toe, but on an inside edge, you are a Millerphite b/c that is his creation, and...oh, nevermind, that was last year. Have you seen the new couple from ??, they dance the Z Style...she clicks her heels, you know. It's all the rage. Then, off we go...discussing, yet another recreation of what should be just good tango.

Taking nothing away from legitimate style differences; Copes/Dinzel vs Zotto/Angel vs Salas/Naviera...all great...MHO is that we spend way too much time creating way too much confusion making the dance way too much overwhelming, by our incessant order needs of/to identify/title/classify everything that is foreign/not innate.

Sorry...mini-rant over............ http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/ashamed/ashamed0001.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=ashamed/ashamed0001.gif)

Zoopsia59

11-05-2008, 08:08 PM

According to Tangonuevo, apparently it's AT danced elegantly.

Well that would certainly distinguish it from Orilleo at least ;)

Angel HI

11-05-2008, 08:17 PM

Well that would certainly distinguish it from Orilleo at least ;)

Oh Dear God...another name...another style......... :confused:

Peaches

11-05-2008, 09:49 PM

Good lord. Eleven pages and still no real answer as to what VU is.

I suppose that that, right there, is an answer in itself.

:rolleyes:

Ampster

11-05-2008, 10:23 PM

Good lord. Eleven pages and still no real answer as to what VU is.

I suppose that that, right there, is an answer in itself.

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes: It's Milonguero style with the woman's beautiful butt prominently out! :cool:

Zoopsia59

11-05-2008, 10:49 PM

Oh Dear God...another name...another style......... :confused:

Well it probably would have helped if I had spelled it correctly...

Orillero. With an r.

Zoopsia59

11-05-2008, 10:52 PM

Peaches

11-05-2008, 10:59 PM

:rolleyes: It's Milonguero style with the woman's beautiful butt prominently out! :cool:

Oh... then that's what I dance all the time.. even when I'm trying not to. Glad to know its a legitimate style after all and not just my lack of abdominal control ... ;)

I don't have poor posture.. I'm dancing VU!

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!I LIKE this definition!!! (Especially since it's not unheard of for my teacher to either correct me for losing tone in my core, or ask me if I'm letting myself go swaybacked. For a while now, my answer has been no--I haven't lost tone, and I'm not swaybacked. Which is usually followed by a "laying on of hands" on my stomach to check or something similar...followed by some stammering on his part about not being able to tell from glancing in the mirror, and a comment about curves. :rolleyes: At least he has the decency to look abashed, lol.)

FWIW, I think of VU as brand name salon style. Perhaps there's something different. I don't see it, and I've never read anything which suggest otherwise. If it genuinely feels different I wouldn't know; the only couple I know of who "advertises" their VU style is Ney/Jennifer, and I wasn't honored by his asking me to dance the two times I've seen him in person. (And, you all "know" me...of course I wouldn't dream of asking him. Or just about any other guy, for that matter.)

newbie

11-06-2008, 05:11 AM

According to Tangonuevo, apparently it's AT danced elegantly. Of course, immediately we are faced w/ what that is. Is it the same to/for everyone? If yes, then does that mean that all other styles are not elegant? And, if not, then why does VU have the patent on elegant tango?

Or, maybe, I just don't know. Maybe, I just should have let him answer. :(

If I'm allowed to add some confusion, there is a style named elegante (elegance/elegancia), advocated by Orlando Paiva Jr, which is a kind of Salon danced with (self-proclaimed) elegance. So, it has all the features of VU. But on his site Mr Paiva says nothing about VU and names this styme "Paiva style".

newbie

11-06-2008, 05:13 AM

:rolleyes: It's Milonguero style with the woman's beautiful butt prominently out! :cool:

This is estilo Geraldine, not VU.

Dave Bailey

11-06-2008, 06:45 AM

Good lord. Eleven pages and still no real answer as to what VU is.

I suppose that that, right there, is an answer in itself.

:rolleyes:
Yup.

My only reason for asking is to know whether this is something I "should" be aware of, or not.

For example, I missed a trick in Salsa in the late 90s, by completely ignoring the cross-body style - I dismissed it as a fad, and then got caught out when it swept through like an all-conquering whatsit.

But, it sounds like this VU is, frankly, nothing - if no-one can clearly define it, I'm not going to worry about it.

dchester

11-06-2008, 08:56 AM

:rolleyes: It's Milonguero style with the woman's beautiful butt prominently out! :cool:
Finally, a constructive post on the subject.

:mrgreen:

bafonso

11-06-2008, 09:52 AM

If you can't see a difference, then it's nothing to you. Some people want to see things so they can market, write and talk about it. Other times, you'll need to dance with someone from those neighborhoods to understand it.

Dave Bailey

11-06-2008, 11:08 AM

If you can't see a difference, then it's nothing to you.
If you can't describe the difference, in a consistent and general way, then it's not a general style, it's just the way one or two specific individuals dance.

I can (for example) provide definitions of the differences between LA and Cuban salsa style, or between Nuevo and Fantasia. But no-one, so far, seems to be able to do the same for "VU style" - and no, "elegance" isn't enough.

So until someone can provide this, I'm sticking with "it's nothing"...

bastet

11-06-2008, 11:19 AM

Oh... then that's what I dance all the time.. even when I'm trying not to. Glad to know its a legitimate style after all and not just my lack of abdominal control ... ;)

I don't have poor posture.. I'm dancing VU!

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

me too!

bastet

11-06-2008, 11:30 AM

If you can't describe the difference, in a consistent and general way, then it's not a general style, it's just the way one or two specific individuals dance.

I can (for example) provide definitions of the differences between LA and Cuban salsa style, or between Nuevo and Fantasia. But no-one, so far, seems to be able to do the same for "VU style" - and no, "elegance" isn't enough.

So until someone can provide this, I'm sticking with "it's nothing"...

well- I never gave my two cents worth...but I'll give it a go...mainly becasue I did have lessons with Jennifer, but I'd say that's my only claim to having an opinion.

I put it in with general Salon in terms of technique because the focus is the walk (as opposed to in place, rhythmic movements like in milonguero) even though the flat offset embrace Jennifer taught me fits more with milonguero...and if you ask Jennifer she most likely will group it in Salon as well. She most adamantly told us when we had several months of lessons that the embrace we were going for was not apilado.

I do see some couples who are categorized in this way (as dancing VU) tending to use specific figures (namely a turn to the left that then whips back around to a forward ocho across the lead past his right side....and I see this move fairly consistently in dancers like Jennifer and Ney, Javier and Andrea (and Javier and Geraldine before that), plus great emphasis on the walk, not too much emphasis on breaking in to open embrace....but I'm not sure if that's the type of thing you are looking for in an explaination.

That's all I can come up with technically, as a non-Argentine outsider who may not have inside information on it....take it with a grain of salt...just like anything else...as I said in another thread, I tend to use 3 categories of style and I delineate those by very distinct types of embrace and also technique differences so I group what some people call VU in with Salon and just don't worry too much about it.

For what it's worth- if you haven't learned that fun little turn (we call it the Ney and Jennifer turn), and can get it in a class, go learn it...it has a lovely feel (at least from the follows side).

dchester

11-06-2008, 11:31 AM

newbie

11-06-2008, 12:03 PM

“Puppy” (his preferred spelling) Costello

Castello is his preferred spelling.

bordertangoman

11-06-2008, 12:20 PM

This thread is getting like an Umberto Eco plot ; mystery inside an enigma within a labaryinth;
The Knights Templar of Urquiza guard the secrets of the tango style that has passed down seven generations; each knight holds only a seventh of the key to the mystery;
The evil BTM has found three of the keys and their guardians have met with "accidents"
Now begins the race for the four reamining keys and the battle between good and evil continues.

Sorry its friday afternoon in the BTM calendar and I'm losing the plot or reinventing it?

Heather2007

11-06-2008, 03:57 PM

The Knights Templar of Urquiza guard the secrets of the tango style that has passed down seven generations; each knight holds only a seventh of the key to the mystery;
The evil BTM has found three of the keys and their guardians have met with "accidents"
Now begins the race for the four reamining keys and the battle between good and evil continues.

Cor, has the makings of a powerful synopsis to a story to beat Dan Brown. You jest, but Knights Templar of Urquiza sounds bloody good title. Crikey O'Reilly, I might nick that myself. Ha, ha, ha.

Ampster

11-06-2008, 06:07 PM

This thread is getting like an Umberto Eco plot ; mystery inside an enigma within a labaryinth...

This is the part when you realize you have to change the movie to "Wallace & Gromit." Something less heavy and a bit more entertaining.

Zoopsia59

11-06-2008, 08:47 PM

This is the part when you realize you have to change the movie to "Wallace & Gromit." Something less heavy and a bit more entertaining.

No worries....

(where's the cheese?)

Angel HI

11-08-2008, 01:40 AM

If I'm allowed to add some confusion, there is a style named elegante (elegance/elegancia), ....
She most adamantly told us when we had several months of lessons that the embrace we were going for was not apilado.

I guess that Amps and I are 'somewhat' responsible for instigating the length of this thread. But, this is what we are talking about. Elegante is a description..not a style. Apilado is used here as a description...not a style. VU is a description that was created/marketed into a style (note that I did not say "as a", I said "into a").

For what it's worth- if you haven't learned that fun little turn (we call it the Ney and Jennifer turn), and can get it in a class, go learn it...it has a lovely feel (at least from the follows side).
Yes, it's a fairly common little grouping regardless of which "style" one is learning.

Angel HI

11-08-2008, 01:41 AM

This is estilo Geraldine, not VU.

:uplaugh: Best post in the thread.

Zoopsia59

11-08-2008, 12:26 PM

a turn to the left that then whips back around to a forward ocho across the lead past his right side....).

Isn't what you are describing just a back boleo with the follower's right leg into a forward ocho?

I must be missing something because that would be pretty common and I wouldn't think of it as something that you'd need very specific instruction from certain teachers on. (and certainly not any kind of "signature" move)

Can you post a video with a time count to show the move you are refering to?

dchester

11-08-2008, 05:01 PM

For what it's worth- if you haven't learned that fun little turn (we call it the Ney and Jennifer turn), and can get it in a class, go learn it...it has a lovely feel (at least from the follows side).Would you describe the turn you are referring to, or if you have a link to video of the turn, I'd be curious to know what this turn is that you are describing.

bastet

11-09-2008, 06:52 PM

Would you describe the turn you are referring to, or if you have a link to video of the turn, I'd be curious to know what this turn is that you are describing.

I've seen it most used by Javier and (partners), Jennifer and Ney, and also Mamie and Carlitos somtimes. A cute turn with a flourish....at about 1:00-1:05

I'm sorry I have never figured out how to embed video...feel free to repost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6YMpeJGg6U

Lilly_of_the_valley

11-09-2008, 10:10 PM

I've seen it most used by Javier and (partners), Jennifer and Ney, and also Mamie and Carlitos somtimes. A cute turn with a flourish....at about 1:00-1:05

I'm sorry I have never figured out how to embed video...feel free to repost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6YMpeJGg6U

From several different sources, I have heard this move called a "milonguero dip". Basically, for a follower, it is just a sharp forward ocho with a vertical change. It does feel very nice indeed... as if somebody turned off the gravity for a moment, and you are flying, but at the same time still are very connected to your partner, and in control :)
I do not see why it is considered a signature move. Quite a few people I dance with have it in their repertoir.( Most of them are on the more advanced level of tango, though... or, at least, intermediate). Including my regular teacher whose style, btw, is very "salon".

Angel HI

11-10-2008, 04:32 AM

From several different sources, I have heard this move called a "milonguero dip".

I do not see why it is considered a signature move. Quite a few people I dance with have it in their repertoir.

*cringing again at the apparent need to name "everything"* (Not meant for you Lily).
I have never known this move to have a particular name, and certainly not one attributed to "milonguero" (dance nor person). And, though it could be someone's sig, yes, I agree that it is seen everywhere.

bastet

11-10-2008, 09:13 AM

From several different sources, I have heard this move called a "milonguero dip". Basically, for a follower, it is just a sharp forward ocho with a vertical change. It does feel very nice indeed... as if somebody turned off the gravity for a moment, and you are flying, but at the same time still are very connected to your partner, and in control :)
I do not see why it is considered a signature move. Quite a few people I dance with have it in their repertoir.( Most of them are on the more advanced level of tango, though... or, at least, intermediate). Including my regular teacher whose style, btw, is very "salon".

Don't know- never heard it called a name. And like I said- Jennifer, if asked, classifies what she and Ney dances as Salon, so I'm also not trying to say it's a milonguero move.

11-10-2008, 10:01 AM

These look like plain old fans to me. The first style that comes to mind is American. These are pretty much a standard on American tango syllabi. Now, this isn't to say the students are always taught how to lead them, or to dance the elements well, so if you're watching a particularly bad couple, it looks like they are squatting and her leg is flopping behind, as though dead, a mere afterthought... does not remotely compare to, or look anything like, what is danced in the video link here.

Am I not looking at the right part of the video? Haven't had my coffee this morning, so... http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/schlafen/sleeping-smiley-006.gif

Feel free to kick me.

Lilly_of_the_valley

11-10-2008, 01:21 PM

I totally join in the Angel's feeling about the urge to label everything, the moves, the styles. Words can clarify as well as create more confusion. For example, in my understanding, the word "milonguero" does not always mean "belonging to milonguero style"(whatever it might be in the first place), but in some cases it might, and here we go...

Anyway, I merely thought sharing what I heard as a name for the move in question might help to identify it, but now I see how and why it did not :)

Angel HI

11-10-2008, 01:31 PM

... in my understanding, the word "milonguero" does not always mean "belonging to milonguero style"(whatever it might be in the first place),
Absolutely. Just posted somewhere that when Suzanna coined that term, the primary intent wasn't to name a style, rather to identify it as being what a particular culture did. There was/is nothing wrong w/ naming a style after it per se, but persons get carried away w/ it.

bordertangoman

11-10-2008, 03:01 PM

This is the part when you realize you have to change the movie to "Wallace & Gromit." Something less heavy and a bit more entertaining.

Are you implying that VA style is down to wearing the Wrong Trousers?

Ampster

11-10-2008, 03:15 PM

Are you implying that VA style is down to wearing the Wrong Trousers?

Nope. I meant that when...

Originally Posted by bordertangoman http://dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=625635#post625635)
This thread is getting like an Umberto Eco plot ; mystery inside an enigma within a labaryinth...

Then its time to change the movie into a happier one. Wallace and Gromit was the first one to pop into mind at the time of writting. Perhaps I should have listed "Chicken Run," or "Finding Nemo" instead?

dchester

11-11-2008, 01:18 PM

I've seen it most used by Javier and (partners), Jennifer and Ney, and also Mamie and Carlitos somtimes. A cute turn with a flourish....at about 1:00-1:05

I'm sorry I have never figured out how to embed video...feel free to repost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6YMpeJGg6U
Thanks, that is one of my favorite videos of Ney and Jennifer. It looks like the follower is doing front ochos, but they are overturned on only one side (while Ney does some fancy, energetic stepping). I occasionally will do a more sedate version, similar to what is on this video below (starting at around 4:39), although I'm pretty sure that Dario leads it a tad better than I do.

:wink:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9lf8gBU5wI

tangonuevo

11-12-2008, 05:28 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNnIkrkfAY

Clearly NOT Villa Urquiza since that is not a style, but I did find Sergio's comments (he was born and raised in Villa Urquiza) nevertheless interesting.

http://mailman.mit.edu/pipermail/tango-l/2008-November/009325.html

Just saying, not taking a position on the matter!!

Angel HI

11-13-2008, 12:40 AM

Clearly NOT Villa Urquiza since that is not a style, ....Just saying, not taking a position on the matter!!

:p From the ref. post above, http://mailman.mit.edu/pipermail/tango-l/2008-November/009325.html : "In my opinion this is the root of tango, as it has all the movements of tango, the other styles have adopted some of the moves of traditional tango to adapt to certain conditions or to achieve certain effects.
It is the style as danced in "Villa Urquiza" and called by that name by some. - Sergio"

You need not sound so dejected, :) We know that some call this style of dancing VU. Our earlier point/s was/were not that you were in err, but that VU needn't be singled out from just plain, good, basic AT (which [calling it good basic tango] is also posted in the comment by Sergio).