independant or employeed, which is more honest [Archive]

Larinda McRaven

04-23-2004, 07:18 AM

All Righty, after some discussion with an independant studio owner this past week and two sleepless nights I am going to ask for your opinions here, especially the dance professionals in the styles besides ballroom.

The discussion the other day went something like this. Studio Manager says to me: "My business partner and I were talking to another owner. And we have come to realize that you independant teachers are the very bain of our existence. You steal students, charge outrageous prices, pocket all of the money, don't pay taxes, and our employees wonder why they can't be independant and come and go like you. You will eventually ruin the business for everyone. Don't get me wrong, I like you, but..."

OK so that was paraphrased but you get the idea. She kept telling me how she wasn't talking about us and trusts us in her studio but "those damn independants..." Well there are only a handful of us in the entire state so in all honesty she is talking about us.

All of her charges do not apply to us as we don't "steal", don't charge anymore than they do, don't pocket the money - but deposit to our business (CTBallroom) and draw a personal paycheck as any other employee would, and pay our taxes on our business and again on our personal income. The only real perk we get is that YES we do get to set our own schedule and go home as soon as we are done.

So I began thinking, unfortunately at 3 am, what was really the basis of her gripe, I guess the studio owners feel that we take advantage of them.

Then it hit me. I don't think the other dance styles actually have closed studios where there is a boss, and many full time employees. Like, is there really a swing/lindy studio that runs on a close system or is it a space that one (or a group of people) is responsible for and everyone that teaches or practices simply pays a floor fee. How about CW, Salsa, or Argentine Tango? Is this because most of the teachers only are part-time and have normal day jobs? Or is it another system completely.

Are we taking advantage of them...or are they taking advantage of their employees? Emplyees that must be there noon to 10, and only get paid $15 for the hours taught. This isn't a question of whether or not studios are profitable. I know so many studios that struggle to get by and probably can't pay the teachers anymore. But is this closed system ultimately flawed.

So many more thoughts and questions, my mind is reeling...
What do you guys say?

Genesius Redux

04-23-2004, 08:38 AM

Oh, don't get me started....

I first began dancing in a franchise studio, and because I became friends with my teachers, I eventually learned all about the business practices of the place. As you say, teachers got 15/hour for lessons (if they were pulling in more than 30 hours--otherwise they got 10). Most the teachers were kids with some dance background who were trained at the studio--they then signed contracts (given a couple of minutes to look over them, no legal representation) agreeing that in the event they leave the studio, they wouldn't teach any "past, present, or future" students of the studio for I think either a year or two years. The studio chose their dance partners, and by and large they couldn't go to any but the in-house competitions the studio sponsored. Every now and then, the owner would support a comp out of town, but at his whim. And when they did go, they'd get creamed, so naturally they stuck with the in-house comps.

They were not supposed to attend any comps in town that weren't run by the studio--and they didn't invite any local non-studio dancers to their own comps. Managers even had the temerity to tell them that they couldn't dance with dancers from other studios. The studio was charging $100 per lesson, of which as I've said 10 or 15 was going to the teacher.

The ludicrous contract made all the teachers feel as though they wouldn't be able to get any work if they left the studio. (I think the contract tried to specify a radius of 100 miles). Many teachers leaving the studio also left the state.

Eventually the contract was challenged by a couple of teachers who'd been around--had actual experience in the industry. And of course the stipulations in the contract were laughed out of court. The managers, for their part, lied to the remaining instructors, telling them they'd won the court battle--and most of the instructors, young and impressionable, believed them.

Where I dance currently, teachers rent floor space. Most of them charge around 65 for an hour--students pay less, teachers get more, and it's a very fine system.

As far as stealing students. The franchise owner or, for that matter, the dance instructor who would presume to think s/he owned me can bite me. I have a great deal of loyalty to my teachers, but I'm not their property--my current teacher is one of the least proprietary people I know. Why? Because she knows she's good, and she's not in competition with anyone over me. She's not the sort of person who would actively solicit students from other studios--but if she did, so what? That's what a free market is all about. The franchise studios with their medieval guild-oriented notions of business make me frankly sick to my stomach. If they feel there's some competition out there, then let them deliver a superior product for a competitive price. What they currently do (at least where I used to dance) is keep their students ignorant of what's going on in the larger dance world. They've actually asked students to leave when they've found the students had taken a couple of lessons with someone else.

The instructors are told to keep their students away from other dance events in town--and the studio mounts an ongoing internal campaign of disparagement of all the other studios. The dancers there aren't first rate, they don't have our training, their competitions are amateur. Meanwhile, we're pulling in people like David Hamilton and Buddy Scwhimmer for seminars, and putting out students who can outdance the best of the teachers at the other franchise.

So yes, for the poor beleaguered franchise owners. Stop whining and put out a product. Maybe don't buy the new Lexus and hold your prices down. Get teachers who know how to teach the syllabi, and don't prey on older students with lots of money whom you think you can fool. For all the poor franchise owners who feel that the entire industry is threatened by independents--hey, baby, my heart freakin bleeds for you.

Most sincerely,

Genesius[/list]

DanceMentor

04-23-2004, 08:45 AM

Great topic, Larinda!

I have talked about this topic on many occasions, as it is an common issue with owners, teachers and students. I think you have to start by looking at the business model. I have been on both sides of the fence.

The first type of studio is the type only has employees, and no independant teachers (ex. franchise). One thing you have to consider is there is a cost to the studio to gain new students. They are probably advertising in the yellow pages, and doing telemarketing. They also have to hire a full time person to answer the phone and book lessons. I can understand the frustration of spending all this money to get interviews, only to keep losing students to independent instructors who have no overhead, especially with this business model. If you are paying your teachers well, and you are good at getting new students through the doors, this can still be a successful business structure.

Another business model is the studio who has big open to the public parties, and rents floor space to independants. Let's say rent is $5000 per month. They have 4 parties a month with over 100 people attending each time and they charge $10 per person. In addition, they offer group lessons taught by independent instructors, and they split the money. They also rent floor space to the instructors. In this scenario, they hopefully have enough money to pay a couple of people to answer the phones and run the parties. It's often difficult for small studios to use this model.

I've also seen a mixed business model where teachers may work for the studio and work for themselves. The rule is that when the studio provides the interview to the teacher, the teacher must work for the studio for a certain number of lessons. It's nearly impossible for small studios to use this model.

Larinda McRaven

04-23-2004, 08:56 AM

Wow GR..sorry to get you going so early in the morning... :wink:

Yes there are many studios, franchised and independant, that really pull a fast one on their teachers, I was once young and niave and worked a full week for $250 when I started and was asked to sign a no-compete clause. And Steve was fired by his franchise studio for dancing with me.

The funny thing is though, that these studios across the country(most in my opinion are better than the conditions you described) love to have us in to do coaching, or to do a show, they simply don't want us teaching in their backyard. The local ones want to have us in a 10am to work with their staff, but not at 1pm when a student might see us. The local ones love that I tell my students "hey you want to be in a showcase, go ahead and sign up with the studio." or "Yes the studio is having a party on Saturday go ahead and go if you want." It doesn't hurt me, these are not services I offer anyway and am not losing business to the studio for these things. The studo will gladly take my students money and even sign them up for their mailing lists and solicit them directly for other studio functions. But somehow the independant teacher is the bad guy in all of this?

I just wonder how the other dance styles cope. Isn't there any system out there better than what ballroo has now? Is there a way for us to all work together and not feel taken advantage of?

Flat Shoes

04-23-2004, 08:57 AM

What they currently do (at least where I used to dance) is keep their students ignorant of what's going on in the larger dance world. They've actually asked students to leave when they've found the students had taken a couple of lessons with someone else.

:shock:

The next step down this line is mass suicide and hitching a hike with the dance shoe shaped spaceship hiding in the tail of Haleys comet.

This isn't a business, it's a cult. :roll:

Larinda McRaven

04-23-2004, 09:40 AM

DanceMentor, I totally agree, the first business model has no room for independants. The sheer volume of money spent on advertising alone is dizzying. I am, thankfully, good enough friends with past and present owners from 8 studios in the area and have grown up in the business watching them all struggle to make ends meet sometmes and can completely sympathize. They are simply protecting their investment.

However, blaming the independants can seem a bit misguided. Who said I don't have advertising costs? I may not have a yellow page ad but I pay thousands and thousands of dollars on my dancing, results, and reputation, to advertise for work locally and around the country. And it is not as if we are stealing everyone students. Even when students, of studios where we rent or coach, approach us for lessons we turn them down, because the owner let us in on the good faith that we would not take their business from them, simply teach our hours, pay our floor fee, and go home, with as little disruption to their system as possible. So in the end our pool of students is extremely narrow...those students we have gather slowly and carefully over the years without offending a studio or teacher (or from local studios that have no regard for us and we in turn have little for them) and those students who are generally interested in competitive dancing only and are willing to put up with our chaotic schedule, of which there are very few.

The second business model you mention just doesn't seem to work well, as you said, on a small scale. So unfortunatly, one studio we are in tried it and gave up and had to move to the first business model, leaving us a little on the outside as they don't want us to disrupt their new system. We still teach there, but keep our interaction with their business to a bare minimum.

The other studio we teach in tries the third model. They have teachers that are both employed and independant. We are still the exception in that we are completely independant there and do not teach their students. They are the ones originally complaining to me. Which I thought was odd since they seemed to have the most progressive outlook.

We actually own a business, Connecticut Ballroom is legitimate, and I have many lawyer fees and acconting fees to prove it. Most people assume we own a studio, actually we do. It is right here in our home and we perform business transactions in various locations.

But in reality even a studio owner is only renting the space (unless they have bought the building), so really everyone owns a business and everyone rents, we just rent on an hour by hour basis and the studios rent on a montly basis. So I fail to see why independants are considered the road to ruination.

Adwiz

04-23-2004, 09:51 AM

From my perspective as someone in marketing who has worked with many kinds of businesses, from startups to billion dollar corporations, the attitude a business takes towards its customers and staff (or teachers, both independent and internal) always boils down whether they have a scarcity mentality or abundance mentality.

Business people with a scarcity mentality are always focused on protecting their assets. Of course all businesses have to protect their assets, but these people focus on this above everything else. They feel that there are a limited number of customers and hoard what they have, trying to suck out of this small group every dime they can get. This almost always keeps the business from growing, especially in the Internet age where customers are becoming more aware of their choices, more demanding, and more wary of being taken. Word of mouth is a powerful force, and people sense this kind of attitude in a business. It keeps them from recommending it to others because they don't want to be embarrassed down the road.

Business people with an abundance mentality are focused on meeting the needs of their customer. They have an attitude that if you charge fairly, treat your customers and staff well, are honest in your communication and provide as many services as you can afford, then there will always be growth.

From what I've observed, this applies equally well in the dance world. The closed franchise system as it exists in the ballroom world is a dying model. It has little respect for the customer and assumes that the people now involved in dance are all that there will ever be, so you better take them for all you can.

Many independents have an abundance mentality. I know one studio owner who is so successful that he is now building his own 16,000 square foot building (he's been leasing up to now). Everything he does is focused on meeting the needs of customers. He has 12 independent instructors and loves every one of them.

His entire attitude is one of abundance. He feels that there are tens of thousands of potential dancers out there in the city who just haven't discovered the joy of dancing yet and his vision is to show them how great it is. It's a completely different perspective from the franchise studios. And it works. He doesn't have to worry about his independent teachers "stealing" students because he knows he has a great product that gets talked about and that will always get people back no matter where they go. It doesn't bother him at all that I have one coach who works out of his studio and one who works at another studio. His attitude is that I'm more empowered to be a better dancer as a result of making my own choices, so that's great. Is it any wonder that I call his studio my dance home?

Danish Guy

04-23-2004, 10:00 AM

I’m shocked again. :shock: :shock: :shock:

This looks more like the mafia than the dance scene. :roll:

Its always sad to see when people fight about the money you use on your hobby.

Try different teachers, different styles of teaching, workshops and so on. I would not like to be branded as a copy of a teacher or a studio. Have an open mind, and use what fits you.

What is the point of dancing, if you can’t meet with other dancers, or dance with whom you like to. Ending like some kind of inbreed. And I thought that US ballroom was so big, there where regular parties and clubs where everybody could dance with everybody.

Then again, you can go for the gold, the glory and fame, and take it as a dead serious sport. But what are the chances for success, if the coach owns you! Did you start up with the right coach?

I have full understanding for that the people need some money for their services, and have to pay the taxes, the floors and so on. But I’m again and again chocked over the methods.

But it fits on all the things I didn’t like from my ballroom time as a kid. :oops:

It’s a tough world out there.
Take care. :wink:

pygmalion

04-23-2004, 11:42 AM

Oh! I wish I had time to write a long reply! :x I'll check in later with my own diatribe. But yes, my experience has been quite similar to GR's. :evil: I admit I know little about the costs of running a studio. However, in my view, in franchised studios, the teachers, particularly, the new, inexperienced, part-time teachers, are being grossly exploited. Also, the students, particularly the wealthy, lonely, and uninformed are being exploited.

I have much more to say, but I'd better cool down before I say it.

Great topic, Larinda. 8)

Hank

04-23-2004, 12:12 PM

1. I've taken lessons in the ballroom, swing, lindy, salsa, and country communities, and ballroom is the only system that uses the closed studio model.

2. The closed studio model has many faults but it has one redeeming quality: on average, it produces better teachers than the other systems. When I find teachers who understand dance fundamentals and know how to teach them, I always ask, "Where did you learn to teach dancing?" The expert teachers tend to have started at a closed ballroom studio. They may have long since moved away from the closed studio to an open studio and away from ballroom to another dance style, but they learned to teach at a closed ballroom dance studio. The other models do produce expert dancers, but they tend to be people who were never explicitly taught how to be a teacher, and there is a big difference between being an expert dancer and an expert teacher.

Genesius Redux

04-23-2004, 12:46 PM

Okay, I'm a little cooler about this topic now. Yes, Larinda, you're right, there are few franchise operations that are nightmares on the order of the one I came from. Suffice to say that I had a number of friends teaching there whom I cared about very deeply and who were put through the ringer. I could cheerfully put two behind the ear of the owners and dump them in the Cumberland.

Those non-compete clauses are generally unlitigable--they're often used to hold the young, naive teachers in awe. Of course the franchise operations don't want indies operating nearby--but that fear has nothing to do with the future of the industry. It has everything to do with fear of legitimate competition.

My feeling--if competition threatens your franchise, then reorganize the franchise to make it more competitive. Share profits with teachers, which will attract more experienced teachers to the franchise. Lower prices to make the franchise competitive. That will cut into managerial salaries.

Yes, a lot of the time these places are run mafioso-style. There are the teachers at the bottom, and the then the managers and the owners, all getting their cut. I don't buy the argument about expenses--there was a great disparity that I saw between management and teachers in terms of how much money they were pulling down. It is also probable that the studio owners where I was were pocketing much of the money that the students deposited on lesson packages. And right now, they're facing a rather devastating class action lawsuit by a number of former students who left and were not given the refunds they were entitled to. CEOs of other companies have gone to prison for that kind of mismanagement.

The whole experience of the independent studio is better than the typical experience at the franchise. Where I am, we buy individual lessons or whatever we work out with our teachers. Really good people are brought in to coach throughout the year. The teachers often just go out social dancing with their students. Far from being a threat to the industry, the independent studio where I dance now is a real boon.

How different from walking into the franchise, having big packages pushed on you as the teachers, well prepped by the managers, descend on unsuspecting students like a flock of harpies. Every time you walk in and there's some big new thing the studio is selling, it's like Night of the Living Dead. Hordes of zombified teachers surrounding you, "You're dancing has gotten so good," and "Wow, what great work you were just doing on the floor." It's so transparently self-interested and intent on sales that it's laughable. It's like being caught inside a bad community theatre production of Glengarry Glen Ross.

But while students are beleaguered, the people most victimized are the teachers. While some owners of franchises may complain about independents "stealing" their students, that atmosphere of suspicion is most pronounced within the franchise itself, where many times teachers are in competition with other teachers for students to fill up their hours. Often the teachers don't know a lot about what's going on with the other teachers at the studio, because they never have time to socialize, and they're constantly worried about losing students to someone else who may sell a package and get the credit for it.

On top of that, a lot of the franchises forbid fraternization between the instructors and the students. They say they do this to protect people, but in actuality it's to divide people from each other, to prevent the greater understanding that comes from organization and association. Union busting techniques pure and simple. Often the people the teacher sees most of are students--and particularly if students and teachers are close in age or experience, friendships developed--which the teachers engage in at peril to their jobs!

So separated from their fellow teachers by the poisonous atmosphere and insane work requirements, separated from their students by studio policy, teachers who are having a hard time in their lives have nowhere else to turn but the smiling avuncular studio owner, and this parasitical malignant vampiric sob cultivates loyalty by being the only figure from whom the teacher can get validation, work, and comfort. It's sick and it's twisted and it's wrong. Yes, it's a cult mentality. Union busters meet mafia tribute and cultic psychological control. Lovely.

When I first walked into the independent studio where I dance now, I was especially struck by how friendly everyone was, how much they liked each other, how open the atmosphere. Of course, people still gossip, and say catty things--they're artists, what do you want? But you can tell when people really get along.

So, no, I don't buy the whole idea about independent studios threatening the industry--unless by the industry you mean the franchise operations. I look at some of the franchise operations in the same way I look at the AKC (American Kennel Club); they've gotten hold of living, breathing animals and inbred them to the point that, like the American Bulldog, they can't even reproduce on their own. And then they have the temerity to put out slogans about "responsible breeding."

If the independent studios really did threaten the stranglehold of the franchises, I'd call it a good thing, for students, teachers, and dance in general. Alas, it looks like the franchise operations will continue far into the foreseeable future. The great lie will be believed. And there is, in fact, a sucker born every minute.

Genesius

04-23-2004, 01:03 PM

The other models do produce expert dancers, but they tend to be people who were never explicitly taught how to be a teacher, and there is a big difference between being an expert dancer and an expert teacher.

I agree w/that - a lot of salsa scenes have a few "so-called instructors" who haven't been dancing very long, and really have no concept of proper technique. It's a common enough story of (90% of the time it's a guy) someone who's been dancing 6 months, all of a sudden decides to open up a studio and start teaching. And what ends up happening is that you start coming across dancers who have no clue about fundamentals and get suckered into paying for privates that end up not helping them. Caveat emptor, indeed!

The closed system also has it's drawbacks, too. For salsa, some of the studios with closed systems that I've seen, end up teaching stuff that isn't necessarily helpful for students. For example, in a city where 99% of the people dance On1, I knew of a ballroom studio which was teaching On2. I think it's potentially detrimental for a beginner who wants to go social dance outside of the studio, to spend top dollar on a style that most others won't be able dance.

Another thing that I saw with a few of the closed studios were that some of the instructors were majorly getting ripped off - I know this one gal (she's an illegal alien, so it's hard for her to get work) who was making only $8-10/hour. And I heard stories about how much some of the students were paying, and for as much $$ and time they were paying, you'd think their dancing would/should improve by leaps and bounds but it wasn't...

It's unfortunate that instructors get so competitive with each other. And it really turns me off when an instructor insults other studios/instructors during class. Or when an instructor "shows up and hangs out" during another instructor's class.

Larinda McRaven

04-23-2004, 01:15 PM

I had not meant to start another topic on independant studios vs franchises I realize this a very sore subject for several memebrs of DF. This was more of an independant self employed teacher vs a studio with employees question.

The funny thing is all of the Arthur Murrays around here are very open and amicable to Steve and I, as independant teachers and their coaches. It is the independant studios that have employees that seem to give us the harder time. That want to restrict our access to "their clientle" and refuse to tell the new students in the studio who we are when they ask about us, or seem to get really nervous when we strike up a conversation with their students, but have no problem using our amateurs and pro-ams entries to get themselves a Top Studio award somewhere. I guess this is why I was really shocked and disturbed at the managers statement. I kinda felt like we were supposed to be "on the same side"

Larinda McRaven

04-23-2004, 01:24 PM

Hank, why do you think that is?

I would assume that if you are employed by a studio it is in their best interest to make sure you have skill and professionalism. If I had not gone through a closed independant studio first, I could never have made it to where I am now, and be able to make it as an independant instructor. Being in a closed independant studio (meaning we were all employed by the studio) gave me great experience with daily business skills, and gave me dance and sales training.

bordertangoman

04-23-2004, 02:05 PM

sounds like its all building up to the gunfight at the OK corral. trouble is who are the good guys? I'm rooting for the underdog.

I'm an amateur teacher ie I don't do it for the money. At the moment Iteach AT weekly, and there's a professional teacher who comes in to another venue once a month. In terms of working relationship until we reach a critical mass then I think we are supportive rather than competitive.

Too many rules about what should be. If you think what you get is worth paying for stay with it if not then leave. :wink:

Hank

04-23-2004, 02:33 PM

Professional dancers tend to have artistic/creative personalities. They tend not to be focused on things like showing up on time, scheduling and keeping appointments, and returning phone calls, all of which are necessary to run a successful business. Thus, many dancers teach independently and rent space at an open studio because having and managing employees or being an employee at a closed studio and having to follow its rules doesn't fit their personality. Thus, they aren't really interested in training someone to be a teacher because they don't want to have employees to manage. Also, they only have the money that they themselves earn by selling their personal time, which doesn't leave them any extra time to train someone else to be a teacher.

Training new teachers is very time-consuming and expensive, and only a business that earns money by selling the time of its employees, and has some guarantee of a future return (such as non-compete clauses), can afford to train new teachers.

Genesius Redux

04-23-2004, 02:42 PM

The other models do produce expert dancers, but they tend to be people who were never explicitly taught how to be a teacher, and there is a big difference between being an expert dancer and an expert teacher.

I think I may want to challenge an overly easy distinction here. Yes, it's true that not everyone who is a great dancer can teach. But if you're not a great dancer, then the question becomes what do you have that's worth teaching?

Yes, studios that hire employees can give them a "method" for teaching dance steps--the same way that common syllabi at public high schools can give teachers "methods" for teaching writing, math, history, whatever.

But when push comes to shove, you can only teach what you really know, and you can only really know by making yourself into an expert. And in the dance world, there's only one route to expertise--you have to dance and dance and dance.

Here, I'll stop using the word "franchise" as though it's synonmous with the term "closed studio." At a studio where instructors are retained as hourly employees, the emphasis is on the volume of students that they can move through the system. More students, more lessons, means more money. Students "learn" steps--very infrequently do they learn real technique. Mostly because the instructors don't have technical knowledge to teach. Because the instructors spend all their time cultivating new students--rather than working on their own dancing.

Occasionally you can have teachers in such a system who take their own professional growth seriously, who spend the extra time practicing and going to competitions, and getting the coachings. But it's all too easy to start to build a dependent clientele, keep them happy, get lazy, and never work on your own professional development. This isn't unique to dance; it's going to be true anywhere you have a situation where profit is not directly related to professional expertise.

No more do I think a common methodology leads to superior teaching; it may conceivably prevent people from becoming disastrous teachers. But what is really key behind superior teaching is having struggled through the same issues yourself. The much-touted ability to "break down" a step hardly makes it more doable in the existential experience of a student. It does give a supervisory authority a raison d'etre. Because the supervisory authority is there to guard the sanctity of the "method." From my first experience in dancing, however, I was lucky enough to work with teachers who'd had a whole lot of experience in dance and who felt free to ignore the schedule and the method so they could teach their students how to dance.

You'd have to look at the very specific common methodology before you drew any conclusions about whether such methodology genuinely produced good teachers or whether it existed to justify the expense of the big packages studios sometimes sell. On other threads, questions have even been raised regarding the propriety of a whole dance--the Bronze Foxtrot, for instance.

People who learn steps and how to teach steps, and maybe a little bit of preliminary technique, may be good at imparting some of that to students and organizing their students movements in a comprehensible way. But that is not, in itself, teaching.

Ultimately, while excellence in dance does not make in itself for a great teacher, it is a necessary adjunct to great teaching. You can't separate teaching from its content, the discipline being taught. How can you really have a great teacher if s/he doesn't have anything great to teach?

Genesius

jon

04-23-2004, 02:50 PM

The discussion the other day went something like this. Studio Manager says to me: "...You will eventually ruin the business for everyone."

The studio system seems to have survived just fine for longer than anyone running one today has been alive. If they think it's going to be ruined at this particular point in time, that says more about their particular business than about the "business for everyone".

d nice

04-23-2004, 03:03 PM

Neither system is more "honest" than another in and of itself... But there is a reason why there are specific laws governing studios and their contracts with their students and not about independant dance instructors...

I can only think of two physical studios that are swing specific (at least it was when it opened as far as I know) and that is the Rhythm Room in CT and Hop, Swing & Jump in Manhattan. Both pretty successful studios overall, but nearly every other studio is "virtual", they rent space and teach their classes out of someone elses building. It allows them to control every aspect of their business without getting stuck in a long term lease with a huge overhead. Most pay taxes on their supplemental income (most don't do it full time) and pay money to advertise.

Being independant is about flexibility not just about profits, though they often go hand in hand. I can make more running a series class on my own renting space than I can in twice as much time at a studio. I can run a class for six weeks, go and tour for two weeks and then start a new series, allowing to maximize my time and money, but if I am an employee at a studio it makes it harder to set classes to my schedule, and to own a studio would be tantamount to a ball and chain.

Personally if I ever own my own studio... it will be through collaboration. A dance collective. I have seen some truly amazing studios run this way.

Throwaway Overshare

04-23-2004, 03:12 PM

Larinda, here are a couple of thoughts in no particular order or organziation

- Both models - employees and independents - are going to encounter a great deal of struggle to stay afloat most of the time in most markets. In any less-than-ideal situation like this, it's tempting to fall into a 'grass is greener' sort of mindset - so some of what you are hearing may be simple jealousy over your perceived advantages in ignorance of the disadvantages of your approach.

- Many studios unwisely put in extra layers between their students and teachers. Receptionists, multiple categories of teachers, etc . These people have to be paid, and that reduces the amount of money available to the person actually doing the teaching. They can also interfere substantially, both with the development of the student-teacher relationship, and with practical things like scheduling. Independents, and those small studios where the 2-3 teachers also do everything else, get to keep more of the check, have closer and more trusting student relationships, but have to carry their cell phones everywhere and stay late to clean the bathroom.

- studio owners can get trapped in a corner when they say to the public with their rates that their greener teachers are worth as much as you and Steve, but say to their staff with lower paychecks that they are not. Ironically it may cost enough to train and support a new teacher that the studio really can't charge any less for them. Two additional factors add to this. One is that people who turn or even start pro without first gaining substantial experience and name recognition on their own dime as amateurs (or at least in a previous job) are simple not going to be as cost effective to employ as people who have. The other is that many studios sell the EXPERIENCE of dancing to those with disposable income, wheras you are more selling TRAINING in dancing to those with determination, and the two markets price out very differently. It's almost like saying that the studios are retail (boutique really), wheras you are very nearly 'sales to the trade' - ever notice how industries try to conceal those prices from the general public, or at least the less-informed public?

- The cost to a small business of adding the first non-owner employee is simply outrageous - but it gets more reasonable when you can spread it over more employees. So once you have some, you might as well have more employees and no independents.

- a former world champion recently came to a town that has a very mobile core of dancers who make the rounds of all the major studios. Several studios where approached, but only one was willing to host this teacher on a non-exclusive basis. Despite the fact that their precious students all mix at each other's socials, they were too paranoid about cross contamination if they shared this visiting teacher.

Larinda McRaven

04-23-2004, 03:17 PM

d nice, I was actually wondering about Rhythm Room. They are literally minutes away from where we live. And I have been friends with some of the teachers there, until one of the studios we rent from closed their door to all independants except us, then I lost all contact with the swingers that would occasionally come in. So you are saying that the teachers are employed by Rhythm Room as opposed to just renting? I thought they rented, but perhaps assumed that since some of the teachers were renting at the same location as me in addition to working at Rhythm Room.

Larinda McRaven

04-23-2004, 03:32 PM

Throwaway Overshare, welcome to Dance Forums.

DancePoet

04-23-2004, 04:19 PM

The following is written from the perspective a student relatively new to the dance community, but not new to business. I suspect more experience and understanding is needed before I can write regarding the details of dance studio management, but hopefully the big picture concepts I present are still helpful.

Before embarking on my current career course, I worked for a company that had one of the top customer service records year after year as measured by various groups and organizations. They had grown far beyond the small business they once were and had crossed the threshold into big business. Their whole methodology was wrapped around creating a good product, treating people as they desired to be treated, and the customers would always come back for more. It seemed to be still working for them.

I carry these ideals into my current profession as I grow my business, and I see the owners of the studio where I take lessons as doing the same. They provide a range of different opportunities, without contracts, charge very fair prices, and deliver on instruction tailored to the individual(s) involved. This environment encourages freedom and choices, and it breeds loyalty without restrictions and control. They are independent and they have what it takes to make it work. It is nice to be part of this.

All businesses will have turnover in employees and customers. It needs to be part of the business plan and accepted rather then attempting to have none. Can it be minimized? Sure! But there will always be attrition and that's ok. A successful business can be established and maintained without over worrying about the loss of employees and customers. And this can best happen by fostering an environment where people have options and the ability to make choices within the context of their roles as part of their community/company.

A larger francise can survive if it keeps in mind the need for real customer service or it can prey on the vulnerable and in the long run suffer the problems that will bring it down. Word of mouth can be good and bad, and either way very powerful. Bad customer service can be deadly. I believe the independents are here to stay if they offer the best opportunities, and as long as they continue to provide the personal touches that are so very important in our communities today. The big one's can survive as well, but not if they loose the personal touch they delivered when they were smaller.

There are always reasons a business can fail, large or small. Those who continually create and innovate, those who find ways to make people feel good about themselves and the community, they will thrive!

pygmalion

04-23-2004, 04:41 PM

A larger francise can survive if it keeps in mind the need for real customer service or it can prey on the vulnerable and in the long run suffer the problems that will bring it down. Word of mouth can be good and bad, and either way very powerful. Bad customer service can be deadly.

Yes to this, DancePoet. The studio with which I was affiliated for some reason, thought that the best course was to deceive/withhold information from students. And, of course, they spent a lot of time courting new students to replace the ones they'd lost.

DancePoet

04-23-2004, 05:09 PM

Pygmalion: If their turnover was high, they were wasting time and money.

Larinda: I didn't answer your question. And I suspect this won't fully. However, I feel neither format is necessarily honest or dishonest. It's the people who run the business, whether it is big or small, that form the integrity or lack of integrity of a company. I suspect your's is very solid based on the things you write here on the Dance Forum, and as long as that continues, a lack of credibility won't weigh down your business. Next time a complainer decides to mouth off at your format, remember to pose an appropriate question that indirectly questions the strength of their statement, and I suspect the critizism will end abruptly. Perhaps you will need to be more diplomatic, but sometimes a question that causes another to constructively ponder their own feelings might change their viewpoint just a bit, and the world will be a better place in the long run even if there's a little pain in the short run. Go for it!

pygmalion

04-23-2004, 05:26 PM

Yes, DancePoet. I think they were wasting time and money, but didn't realize it. They were from the old school of management, and didn't have a clue.

And as far a Larinda's conversation with the franchised studio owner, I suspect that the studio owner meant that Larinda, Steve and company were spoiling things for everyone by providing too much value for the money, and by being too honest. "Outrageous prices" probably meant outrageously low, not high. I suspect that the franchise studio's prices are much higher. Salaries for all the extra staff, middle-men, and layers of upper management have to come from somewhere. :?

d nice

04-23-2004, 06:51 PM

So you are saying that the teachers are employed by Rhythm Room as opposed to just renting? I thought they rented, but perhaps assumed that since some of the teachers were renting at the same location as me in addition to working at Rhythm Room.

I am pretty sure they have independant instructors as well, but my understanding was that it was started by social swing dancer/competitors and they teach a number of classes.

I actually moved out right after they opened, so I've only been there twice. My information may be incorrect.

ShyDancer

04-23-2004, 10:01 PM

I’m shocked again. :shock: :shock: :shock:

This looks more like the mafia than the dance scene. :roll:

Its always sad to see when people fight about the money you use on your hobby.

Im shocked too!

Id hate to think this is going on at my studio ..

Maybe Im better off not knowing. I think the Teachers and the owner espescailly are fantastic, Id hate have that opinion changed to a negative one.

etchuck

04-24-2004, 10:03 AM

Okay, in my particular position, I do not own a studio, but I have been trained in the past two years by people who come from a franchised studio and people who are part of an independent. By no means is this a generalization, but one of our club's advisors is from a franchise.

I come from an academic world and I certainly take notice on methods of teaching (best practices) for my own purposes. I don't quite see that there is any better teaching from the franchised teachers compared to the volunteer amateurs that I consider myself part of.

But when it came for me to pick instructors for our ballroom classes, I went with an independent studio because reputation-wise the quality of instructors at the independents appear to be much better... credentials included. And because the teachers and students make an effort to be part of the dance scene (as opposed to the franchised members), I know them better as dancers than I would anyone from an Arthur Murray or Fred Astaire (or other closed) studio. Unless I can read your credentials off a resume or web site, the next best criteria is for me to see how well a teacher dances with people he/she knows and he/she doesn't know.

Basically put, the owners of the franchised studios are doing themselves a disservice by not being part of our dance scene (not to mention perhaps their students too). The independent studios, while I know they have their problems, are getting the reputation of getting the more serious dancers, and I think the whole community winds up improving faster because of their involvement.

Genesius Redux

04-24-2004, 10:24 AM

Basically put, the owners of the franchised studios are doing themselves a disservice by not being part of our dance scene (not to mention perhaps their students too). The independent studios, while I know they have their problems, are getting the reputation of getting the more serious dancers, and I think the whole community winds up improving faster because of their involvement.

They don't want to be part of the larger dance scene. They're only doing themselves a disservice if you think their goal is to promote excellence in dancing at their studios. It isn't. It's to make money--which they do by creating the atmosphere of a closed, exclusive club that they can hawk to people with money and time. They don't want people improving fast, they want people coming to their competitions, their parties, and their classes. And I'm not attempting to disparage that practice here--just describe it.

If they were interested in promoting dance, they'd have a totally different business structure. They wouldn't have all those layers of receptionists and managers and other teachers. They'd hire experienced dancers at a competitive rate and include incentive packages that allowed those dancers to keep competing.

You've got to think of these closed studios as part of a service industry and not as educational.

DanceAm

04-29-2004, 03:33 PM

GR,

I know who you are talking about and a remote studio of theirs is in our area.

Many students here were so frustrated that we opened our own independant studio. We simply rent floor space to professional instructors. It wasn't but about a year into it that most of the instructors banded together took 90% of the students to another studio and tried to force us out of business. In 6 months we are still here, better teachers than ever, and the other studio had to leave their building and move to a closet of a studio.

They said that they didn't want amateurs making a profit off the sweat of their brow. The funny thing was, these dance teachers are much worse off now than they ever were. Some were expert dancers and top notch teachers, but none of them are good business people.

Being an independant studio, we are accused of stealing teachers from other studios, and we are enabling them to steal students. So our studio is taking business away from all "ligit" studios in the area. (This coming from a dance professional that started his own studio against the non-compete he signed and took teachers and students with him.) We are also accused of driving the prices down. The worst part is, most of the amateurs at our studio are better than the most of the teachers at the other studios. All the owners have professions and we make our living off of anything but dancing. We pay our teachers at the studio their rate just as if we were their regualar students. Being an amateur and a student, let me remind the professionals that we are customers in a free market economy. You treat us well, we will stay your customer. I didn't sign over my freedom protected by the Constution of the United States that I couldn't choose my instructor or where I take lessons.

I love franchise studios, especially the one GR was using in his example. They put the love of dance into a person or couple, make them spend a lot of money right away, they blow them off as soon as they don't want to buy another package and then the come to us. Our teachers offer pay as you go, reasonable group rates, and we have a weekly party where the topic of conversation among them is how bad their previous studio was.

We will be out of business if they realized what they were doing, but they won't and we have no worries. And even if they did, we wouldn't need our studio. Independant teachers and coaches are as important as any other dance entity. I think Larinda's conversation was prompted by the fact that he/she saw you as making more money than him, and he had to pay all the expenses out of what he made. Sort of a jealosy thing. We want our teachers at our studio to make money. They will make a big chunk of money, but we don't pay for their advertising, we don't pay for certifications and coachings, they charge what they need to so they can invest in their own dancing. This is a free market economy and we are simply providing a place. It is more of a dancer's CO-OP that works together for the benefit of all.

Larinda, I have had the pleasure of being in a group lesson of yours. I am always rooting for you and Steve and I expect to see you two on top someday soon. BTW, I think Steve looks better in black like everyone else. Certainly the judges know who you are by now.

Genesius Redux

04-29-2004, 03:45 PM

Hey DanceAm,

Welcome to the forums. PM me and I'll give you all the real dirt.

I love the thing about how the indie drives down the prices--like they're complaining that competition prevents monopolistic business practice! Sheesh!

Good for you guys for starting your own studio--if there's anything I can do to help you out, please let me know. Promotional material, or whatever. I can also put you in touch with the people involved in the different lawsuits, and they could tell you about their experiences.

I just want to reiterate that I have no problems at all with anyone making money--more power to you. But to profit from the blood of exploited employees, many of them young, impressionable, inexperienced, and trusting, is to build a house like the Texas Chainsaw Massacre--made of the bones of your victims, and slurp chili made from their flesh. These young dancers are the future of the industry--and because they're artists, they're easier to exploit. To hurt them like this is simply evil.

Larinda McRaven

04-29-2004, 08:11 PM

...is to build a house like the Texas Chainsaw Massacre--made of the bones of your victims, and slurp chili made from their flesh.
oh my gawd... :shock: that is the ugliest most horrible image.

DanceAm, welcome aboard and thanks for the compliments. Co-op, that is a great analogy.

So just a small update, Steve has read through this thread and was pleasantly surprised at the insight from several of the replies. Thank you for taking the time to give me your thoughts. Then he told me to quit whining, since this is the path we willingly choose to follow and that we understood fully well that independant instructors have a tenuous place in a world of studios that prefer to hire, and there would always be others that felt we were making off better than they were with far less work. So thanks again for everyones input.

KevinL

04-30-2004, 07:26 AM

All of her charges do not apply to us as we don't "steal", don't charge anymore than they do, don't pocket the money - but deposit to our business (CTBallroom) and draw a personal paycheck as any other employee would, and pay our taxes on our business and again on our personal income.

I just spoke to my accountant yesterday, and I've got a question about this. Why did you set up your business in this way? Here in Vermont a Limited Liability Company (made up of one person, or several) doesn't have to pay any company taxes, any income is split between partners and they just pay personal income. It would still run the same way as whatever corporation you set up, just with less taxes. Does this form of company not exist in Connecticut?

I'm curious why you chose the double taxation route. Are there benefits, or does the LLC not exist?

Thanks for your time.

squirrel

04-30-2004, 07:28 AM

Ok, guys and gals, here's what's going on in my country:

1. We have ballroom dance studios... most of them either rent a venue or own one (very few) and they pay the teachers more or less, depending on the studio... I have no idea how they treat the employees, but I'll ask and get back to you.

2. We have the Salsa dance scene. Since Salsa is not an 'official' dance in my country (i.e. we have no competition, no rules whatsoever etc.) things thend to be rather chaotic here. For instance, there are the ballroom teachers who teach salsa (most of them don't know it, or dance mambo... I've danced with them and their students, and most of them suck! - don't mean to offend anyone... it's just what happens here).
Then there's the rest of the Salsa teachers, who have no 'credentials' - just learned Salsa using tapes, dancing in clubs or from foreigners who came to our country from countries with a tradition in salsa teaching).
I am among the latter. I mean, I took lessons from the non-ballroom trained teachers, became their friend, eventually danced with them in clubs and now I have my own school.
People tell me I'm a good dancer. Even abroad... not only in my country.
But as a teacher, it seems I am also good... I try to explain everything I know, insist on technique, rehearsal, interpreting the music... I tried to learn how to teach by watching tapes...
There's a fierce competition among the local studios, be it run by ballroom dancers or club dancers. And, as far as the Salsa scene is concerned, it's not about the money, it's about ego... I do not want to go into details (some of them disgusting) but I do not think such 'negative competition' is any good for dancing and the dance scene.
I mean, I suppose there is plenty of money involved, but love of dance should be more important... at least to me it is!
And I prefer to have 10 students who share my views than 100 who don't! And I prefer to teach as best I can, and not profit from those who don't know and have no access to information! And I prefer to have a professional attitude rather than run for the money!
Let me end with another stupid story: a friend of mine (ballroom dancer), who has won numerous competition both locally and abroad, who has been teaching for quite a while now, told me one of his students left the studio after having attended classes for 3 months, and immediately opened his own school! and of course he has more students than his former teacher, who is a professional! and why? 2 reasons: commercials (all kinds of advertising) and commercial attitude towards people... telling them how good they dance even if they cannot move... for God's sake, I saw this guy in the disco, dancing completely off-beat! and when I told him so, he wouldn't believe me!
Well, that's it! I just hope the dance scene all over the world will eventually improve....