the elusive bounce

[goldfish]

ello all! more clueless questions from a beginner :) i've been wondering about the bounce:

i've been told to 'bounce' more in lindy, which is easy when you're in a close hold, but once i start moving around a lot more... :shock: and if your lead isn't bouncing all that much, do you still bounce? do you bounce all the time? does following also mean matching the extent and timing of a lead's bounce?

i don't want to look like a rubber ball but there's an energy that i know i'm missing sometimes too... thanks people!

also some leads have done funny things like pulled silly faces or danced in a kooky sort of way, which cracks me up :D i usually mimic what they're doing or try to throw something responsive back at them. nobody seems to have minded so far, but i'm just wondering if that's the right etiquette

[Sagitta]

I'm still pretty clueless goldfish...however, I would say that in general you should match the lead to a certain extent. If you really bounce and the lead doesn't the danec might become very jarring. I've experienced this sort of thing in various dances. It is the worst sort of experiences that I have. I always then try to match the follow, but sometimes I'm incapable of doing so as it is just too way out there!! :( That's when I really suffer. :cry:

[jdavidb]

My observations... not necessarily what a teacher might teach:

I've seen people hop constantly, swivel one foot at a time, step without adding anything or whatever they want in ECS.

Charleston: the foot that's not kicking is hopping. I like to add to that "...if you want to be hopping". Smoothing out in Charleston looks & feels cool too.

Lindy Hop kinda glides around smoothly, yet there is this really cool (subtle) bob downward which happens during triple stepping. It doesn't bounce up, it dips down.

Then there's Balboa. When you do that, it dictates on its own how much bounce you're gonna have... It's more like a ripple.

[Flat Shoes]

Yes, you bounce all the time in Lindy. (A truth with modifications.) You bounce just as much in open position as you do in closed position and while doing charleston moves.

The amount of bounce is given by you, your partner and the music. You and your partner should match each other, that is get the feel together. And if you listen to swing/jazz music, you will hear different amounts of bouncing in the rythm. Try fitting it all together.

It is possible to dance Lindy without bouncing at all. You can do it totally smooth. Technically this is not swing (no bounce =no swing) and thus not Lindy. But that is technicallities, in practice you can, and sometimes do, dance this way.

There are diffferent techniques for bouncing. But that is not important, at least not for a beginner. But one thing is important, you bounce downwards, and not upwards. You do NOT bounce upwards, that looks stupid and it is also all the wrong feeling. Good Lindy music is relaxed, cool and bouncy. So should you be. And relaxed bouncing is not going upwards. 8)

You probably know what a break are, but I'll say it anyway. The term is used a bit loosely for parts in the music changing characteristics from the main melody. This is when you often don't do normal turns, but often do a freeze, do jazzsteps or plays around. A break is actually when the rythm stops, when the drum and base don't do the swingy thing for a short while (usually 8 beats). When this is happening, the music doesn't bounce and neither do you!

These breaks (now I'm using the term loosely), where you play around, are most beginners nightmares. I still don't care for them too much. At least not when a song hits them all the time. But the key idea is that the normal music stops, and you do something else. It's play-time or it's shine-time. You can do some jazz-steps to look cool, you can do something else that makes you look good or you play with your partner. Or all three at the same time :-)

Since you ask specifically about this, when your partner does funny faces or funny things at you, you can mimic him. Or you can do something different in response. It's play-time, you let loose and do something that feels right. And yes, this can be very difficult to do. How loose and/or good youare at these things depends uppon your personality. What you can do, and many people do do, is practive alone in front of the mirror. This gives you a vocabulary of moves you can use, and gives you a basis for things you can play with during breaks.

Trust me, this becomes easier with time and practice :D

[jdavidb]

Technically this is not swing (no bounce =no swing) and thus not Lindy.

That sounds more like propaganda, force-feeding or idealism, not technical detail.

[Flat Shoes]

Technically this is not swing (no bounce =no swing) and thus not Lindy.

That sounds more like propaganda, force-feeding or idealism, not technical detail.

Why?

[Flat Shoes]

Yeah, and when bouncing keep your legs flexed and bounce from the body. Relaxed, is the key word. :D

[jdavidb]

Technically this is not swing (no bounce =no swing) and thus not Lindy.

That sounds more like propaganda, force-feeding or idealism, not technical detail.

Why?

It excludes people who are smooth from Lindy Hop and swing altogether.

[Flat Shoes]

Technically this is not swing (no bounce =no swing) and thus not Lindy.

That sounds more like propaganda, force-feeding or idealism, not technical detail.

Why?

It excludes people who are smooth from Lindy Hop and swing altogether.

In what way are they excluded?

I mean, if the music isn't bouncy I'm not bouncing either. So what I'm doing then is dancing based on Lindy and swing, but strictly/technically speaking it is not Lindy and it is not swing. But I cannot see that that excludes me from anything at all. I'm not excluded from the good dancers. I'm not excluded from the Lindy crowd. And most important, I'm not excluded from fun and having a good time.

In my oppinion information like this is only excluding if you use the information to actively exclude someone.

Btw: you can bounce and be smooth at the same time. In fact, you should be smooth, your bounce should be smooth and your lead should be smooth. Neither should be shocky or jerky or not smooth.

[jdavidb]

I mean, if the music isn't bouncy I'm not bouncing either. So what I'm doing then is dancing based on Lindy and swing, but strictly/technically speaking it is not Lindy and it is not swing.

I don't think it is technical. I think it's splitting hairs. Just because you shift technique of Lindy Hop from bouncy to wavy to smooth can't mean that it is no longer swing / no longer Lindy Hop. People win Lindy Hop championships in the "Strictly Lindy" category with pretty much no bounce at all.

I don't want to seem to be protesting all of everything else you have said in this thread. It's all quite constructive aside from the way I am understanding the "not swing / not Lindy" part.

[pygmalion]

I thought swing "swings," because of the music's structure, not the bounciness of the dance, or lack thereof. Is that wrong? :oops: :?

[Genesius Redux]

I thought swing "swings," because of the music's structure, not the bounciness of the dance, or lack thereof. Is that wrong? :oops: :?

That would be my understanding, and usage. Eighth notes are said to "swing" when they are given values more like a dotted eighth and sixteenth, or like a triplet designated as a quarter note and an eighth. Swing dancing is dancing to that kind of music.

[goldfish]

it never ceases to amaze me how posts pour into this forum within a few hours... :D

thanks all for the input!

is there a technique for bouncing more smoothly then? i've been told to bounce from the floor by teachers too, so i keep thinking about the floor which makes me look somewhat less like a caffeinated rabbit. but i think i'm still going up rather than down....

[jdavidb]

is there a technique for bouncing more smoothly then? i've been told to bounce from the floor by teachers too, so i keep thinking about the floor which makes me look somewhat less like a caffeinated rabbit. but i think i'm still going up rather than down....

When I do the "A" left-right-left triple step (that would be right-left-right to a follower), my left knee is more loose/bent for the first left, but it still supports me. I'm slightly "down" there. The x-right-left of this triple is rising back up to default height. My knees almost never do go all the way straight in Lindy Hop, of course. The "B" triple step, I make the dip happen there sometimes too, but nowhere near as often as the "A" triple step.

[SDsalsaguy]

goldfish, I don't do this type of swing, but the image that comes to my mind is that of a boxer warily circling his oponent... compressing down into the floor in a deliberate and methodical manner so that they are firmly grounded when the time comes to change direction, speed , and action. HTH.

[goldfish]

awright the next time i dance i'm mentally gonna take out my lead... :twisted:

[Flat Shoes]

I thought swing "swings," because of the music's structure, not the bounciness of the dance, or lack thereof. Is that wrong? :oops: :?

You are right about the music, you are wrong when you don't distinguish between music and dancers. The music is swinging because of its structure. But the dancers can dance to swinging music without swinging themself.

The music swings because of the music structure, the back beat (that makes you wanna clap your hands at 2, 4, 6, 8) etc. It's really difficult defining with words what makes musik swing, but you know it when you hear it! What's very certain, music that swings ain't flat.

But one thing is the swinginq music. A different matter is swingin dancers. Are dancers swinging when they are dancing in a flat non-bounce way? This is were I say no. Swinging music ain't flat, neither should swinging dancers be.

[SDsalsaguy]

So FS, is WCS not swing? I certainly don't expect WCS to be danced in a "bouncey" way." :?

[jdavidb]

I've heard lots of swing music that isn't bouncy. To say it is all bouncy is limiting. There are lots of songs where I'd rather glide Lindy Hop in the "catchy" tempo range of 125 to 200 bpm. Then there is also the slower stuff at 105 to 125. There are some really good songs with the swing beat in that range such as Tuxedo Junction, Pink Panther Theme, but none of them make me feel bouncy. Then way up beyond 200 bpm (imagine 260 to 280 bpm), I doubt I'll do any bouncing at all if I am doing Lindy Hop.

[Flat Shoes]

I don't think it is technical. I think it's splitting hairs. Just because you shift technique of Lindy Hop from bouncy to wavy to smooth can't mean that it is no longer swing / no longer Lindy Hop.


The word smooth is ambigous, because you can be very smooth and still bounce. So can the music. So let's call it flat instead, to distinguish. And with flat, I mean no up and down motion of the body, or no down on the beat. So when going from bouncy to wavy to flat, I will say that on the way you're loosing the swing in the dance.

Swing: (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=swing) To move laterally or in a curve: The car swung over to the curb.

Flat ain't swing. And if it ain't swing it ain't Lindy. But does it matter? Not if you enjoy what you're doing.


People win Lindy Hop championships in the "Strictly Lindy" category with pretty much no bounce at all.


I've seen no 'Strictly Lindy' contests, as I don't live in the states.

Here in Europe, we have very little ECS and WCS. (Or we might have something very similar to ECS, under different names. I'm not sure.) What we do have is Boogie Woogie. BW is a six count based swing dance, where, compared to Lindy, more bouncing is in the feet, the posture is more upright and the upper body is 'stiffer' for lack of a better word. It's more suited to be danced to rock'n'roll music of the fifties, than to the big band swing of the forties. It has a different feel to it, than Lindy.

I don't know if you've been dancing Lindy to Boogie Woogie piano music? I don't like it, it doesn't quite give me the Lindy feeling, but it is very fit for BW dancing.

When dancing fast, BW and Lindy are quite distinct. This does not come from the amount of six and eight count steps, but from the different bouncing and the different posture.

However, when dancing slowly Lindy and Boogie becomes much more similiar, to the point when I can no longer distinguish the dance. It's because the dance gets smoother (flatter) and less bouncy. When the bounce is lost, the charateristics of the two dances are lost too. :!:

Interestingly, as the two dances melt into much the same, the music you dance too is also the same. While for fast, some BW-music is not very fit for Lindy and vice versa, for slow there is almost no such problems.

When it comes to 'strictly lindy' competitions, I find it hard to argue without seeing what you're talkling about or knowing the definition of the 'Strictly Lindy' class of competition.


I don't want to seem to be protesting all of everything else you have said in this thread. It's all quite constructive aside from the way I am understanding the "not swing / not Lindy" part.

For me it's not a big deal. When not trying to define anything (i.e not being technical and not teaching), I don't distinguish. I use the term Lindy freely. In my first post, it was mostly a side remark. But I do stand by that remark! :D

(Also I the term smooth as you do in your posts. But since smooth means more than one thing, smooth as in little or no bouncing, and smooth as in a smooth lead, I found it necessary to be more precise. And for any beginners out there reading this, this makes a good point. Your lead/follow arm should not be bouncing, but kept steady and smooth.)

[jdavidb]

The word smooth is ambigous, because you can be very smooth and still bounce. So can the music. So let's call it flat instead, to distinguish. And with flat, I mean no up and down motion of the body, or no down on the beat. So when going from bouncy to wavy to flat, I will say that on the way you're loosing the swing in the dance.

Flat ain't swing. And if it ain't swing it ain't Lindy. But does it matter? Not if you enjoy what you're doing.


It's not flat; it's gliding. Some songs make a swing dancer want to minimize the dip / maximize the glide. Some songs make a swing dancer want to increase the dip. It's still swing, and Lindy Hop is what they're doing. The majority of what I have seen from Lindy Hop dancers is minimizing bounce. Bounciness is nowhere near the top criteria for validating Lindy Hop or anything "swing".

[Flat Shoes]

It's not flat; it's gliding.
[quote]

As long as we make the distinction between a smooth lead and a nonbouncy dancy style.

[quote="jdavidb"]
Some songs make a swing dancer want to minimize the dip / maximize the glide. Some songs make a swing dancer want to increase the dip. It's still swing, and Lindy Hop is what they're doing. The majority of what I have seen from Lindy Hop dancers is minimizing bounce. Bounciness is nowhere near the top criteria for validating Lindy Hop or anything "swing".

A little (minimized) bounce is still bounce. It's dance without bounce I say can't be defined as swing. Even if you're doing swing patterns. (For me dancing without bounce is a more 'focused' way of moving.)

So we disagree, and I think we can leave it at that. This is hardly important for any practical purposes anyway.

[SDsalsaguy]

It's dance without bounce I say can't be defined as swing.
Again, I'd say that this cannot be generalized to WCS... :?

[Flat Shoes]

One last question to you jdavidb (and anyone else who disagrees with me): To you, what makes swing music swing, and what makes swing dancing swing?

[Flat Shoes]

It's dance without bounce I say can't be defined as swing.
Again, I'd say that this cannot be generalized to WCS... :?

I don't think WCS swings. I think it's a non-swing dance that has developed from swing.

I don't think any less of the dance though, I think it's a wonderful dance and would love to learn it. At the moment I'm only superficially aware of the differences between Lindy and WCS (and thus I may be wrong about the above statement).

[d nice]

Hey how come all the fun topics always happen when I'm away?

So many good questions and ideas being given here... I'll start at the begining...

Goldfish you should be bouncing, and it should be down... now the word bounce has lots of different meanings to different people. In the case of the Lindy Hop it is a natural movement of the body, as you begin to move your body in an athletic manner you must gather your weight, ground yourself and then finally push into your step. We do this by ensuring that all of our weight is comitted to one foot, we allow the ankle knee and hip to flex letting the muscles relax which brings our body down into the floor. We flex the muscles which push us out of the floor. If we were maintaining our position it is concievable that we might end up with a instead of a recovery of the distance we sank into the floor we end up with positive travel aling the vertical plane. This is entirely undesirable for this dance.

Instead we want to travel along both the vertical and horizontal planes. This gives us a natural rise and fall just as when you are jogging. Actually the human body is intended to move in this manner, it is ebven present in a much minimized way when we walk, but if you jog a bity and concentrate on the flexing of your body and the feel of various parts of your body moving up and down without jarring we have a smooth bounce..

Quick note... as a general rule breaks in the music should not be responded with the cessation of movement on the parts of the dancers. Frankie Norma, Sugar, George, Ruth and the other Savoy Alumni will tell you one of if not the major difference between how lindy hop is danced today and the way it was in the thrities through fifties in Harlem is the amount of stopping we do. Lindy Hop uses momentum and elasticity to create its moves... it is certainly one of the defining elements of this dance... stepping away from this lessens our connection to the original dance. Socially you of course can do whatever you want, but to many changes and what you are dancing is no longer lindy hop. You may care about this or not... personally I think as long as you are having fun, that is what is important... but you should be careful about categorizing the dance you do as the Lindy Hop.

[jdavidb]

Goldfish you should be bouncing, and it should be down... now the word bounce has lots of different meanings to different people. In the case of the Lindy Hop it is a natural movement of the body, as you begin to move your body in an athletic manner you must gather your weight, ground yourself and then finally push into your step.

So if the bouncing which occurs is natural, it is correct. Therefore, I wouldn't go trying to find ways to manufacture a bounce. Instead, I would be striving for what you said about being athletic or the jogging motion, and the bounce would either happen or it wouldn't. I happen to be very smooth athletically. I allow a slight wave to happen, but it is definitely no bounce. It is looseness because I never hold my back stiff in any position (unless it's a lift done with the legs and a locked back). So, my swing persona also has almost no bounce. My upper body constantly adjusts with lower body rise & fall to keep me quite level from the chest up. If I want to let my upper body sink into (dipping, not teapotting) the first triple step though (and sometimes the 2nd one too), I do it.

I said "no teapotting" in the previous paragraph. D Nice delivered that advice a few weeks ago. So, remember that tilting is not a way to help acheive "bounce".

Quick note... as a general rule breaks in the music should not be responded with the cessation of movement on the parts of the dancers.

That's good news because I want to figure out how to get through St. Louis Blues March without stopping when those drum breaks throw me off.

[d nice]

If you are minimizing your bounce in anyway you are disrupting the natural movement of your body. With your background in ballet it may be a learned response, but it shouldn't be done in this dance. Flat Feet was partially right, if there is no bounce it is not lindy hop.

If you look at old clips of Whitey's Lindy Hoppers as well as the Ray Rand Dancers you'll see a constant pulse/bounce in their body. Most of it is in their legs and waist. Just because the head isn't bobbing doesn't mean you are bouncing, just becase the head doesn't bob doesn't mean you aren't bouncing.

Lindy Hop is an African diaspora dance... one of the prime factors in dances that are rooted in African tradition is grounded movement we describe as a bounce. You can use any language you want, but it must be present. One of the prime differences between the Lindy Hop and West Coast Swing is the lack of a number of the African elements. If you have no bounce you aren't doing the Lindy Hop, you are doing a lindy descended dance. There is nothing wrong with this at all. I do LOTS of lindy hop descended dances, teach them, and love them. I'd never get on the floor and dance smooth swing with no slot at all and try and pass it off as WCS. It is dishonest with my self and a misrepresentation of the dance that a number of people I really respect spent so long developing and popularizing.

[jdavidb]

I do just as much as anyone else does with the lower body. I never have described it as bouncing though. As big as the English language is, there must be a better word.

My upper body is only minutely smoother than videos from Meeshi's site, those Kevin & Carla videos, all those competition/performance videos I have watched including Sommer & Dorry and Steve & Rebecca, and others. I just now watched a Dorry & Sommer one where their upper bodies are smoother than I ever get. All of those dc area swing dance videos that get updated all the time... I get a lot of influence from their dances.

"Bounce" means that there will always be confusion and elaborate discussions when implying that non-bouncing is not swing and is not Lindy Hop.

[d nice]

Bounce is the right word and it is a good gatekeeper. The original style bounced... once the word can not be applied to ones dancing I feel it is probably too far away from the original style to be properly termed Lindy Hop.

[jdavidb]

Bounce is more descriptive of free hopping against one surface -- the floor. In Lindy Hop, the floor would be one plane, and the upper body would be the other. So, what we are doing is trying to say the lower body is bouncing between two planes because it seems like everyone agrees that upper body horizontal smoothness (gliding) is acceptible, creating a plane on the opposite end. The first word that comes to mind to fit better is pumping because that means there is a constant (floor) on one end, and variable levels of pressure, resistance and absorption (upper body) on the other.

[d nice]

Sorry I'm going to have to disagree... the bounce is a down and up motion, a falling action and then pushing up and out into a recovery. Pumping is energy applied down and up... this is the exact wrong type of action most people apply.

How energetic the bounce is dictated by the song and the persons personal range... but the energy decreases as it travels up and out which is why the legs will flex more than the body and the body more than the head. Those that continually pour energy into the bounce so that it does not diminish are creating an artificial bounce. Those that apply muscular energy to dampen the bounce are fighting their bodies desired mode of movement... as well as the dances.

[Flat Shoes]

Those that apply muscular energy to dampen the bounce are fighting their bodies desired mode of movement... as well as the dances.

This is exactly what I do when dancing without bounce. It takes a certain 'focus' to keep the body from not bouncing at all. It's a quite distinct way of moving compared to the normal bouncing of Lindy.

This is also why it's difficult to bounce when dancing really slow. Because one tries to bounce slower, one most use a certain degree of force to slow down the normal bouncing motion. This also makes it harder to keep a natural rythm in the bounce, and demands practise. When dancing really slow, it's often easier to take the bounce out of the dance.

But this of course changes the characteristics of the dance.

[goldfish]

:shock: wow

but if the lead's and follow's are (naturally) different, and one bounces more vigorously because of their body type/size/style etc, what happens then? i know i don't bounce enough to begin with, but i've had much more bouncy leads and i had to force a bigger bounce that was out of my comfort range to keep up ... what then?

i'm pretty new to all this jargon, so apologies if the question is too simple :P but where do i feel the bounce? for instance, in a charleston kick? and for charleston kicks where you turn 180 degrees around, how does the bounce make you turn? i feel a sort of momentum sometimes that pushes me around, but i feel my centre of gravity slide a bit when i kick - and it feels as if i'm bouncing up jerkily rather than down smoothly - and i'm not sure whether the kick should be a downward motion or upward... am i making any sense?

[jdavidb]

the bounce is a down and up motion, a falling action and then pushing up and out into a recovery. Pumping is energy applied down and up... this is the exact wrong type of action most people apply.

The way you describe pumping is the way I'm feeling about bounce. Bounce (when applied between two planes) tells me to apply springing energy on both ends like a tennis ball in play. Bounce up, bounce down. Also, bounce leaves one end potentially open like I said earlier, which could mean free hopping upward. Pumping allows absorption or various other degrees of action/recovery on one end like the differences between shock absorbers (changing) and engine pistons (consistent). Pumping also makes it undeniable that there are two planes to consider with very different characteristics from each other between which the action is taking place. Both ends of the action are very different, so they need to be addressed accordingly. Afterall, no one installs two opposing pumps to work against each other.

[jdavidb]

Still, regardless of whether it's bouncing or pumping, I'd never claim that an elderly couple who is walking through Lindy Hop steps or someone with knee or hip problems is doing "not swing / not Lindy Hop". Those are examples of non-bouncing, non-pumping which illustrate why I am not in favor of such exclusive, constraining idealism.

[d nice]

You can be against it, but from a labanotation stand point they aren't doing Lindy Hop. When you change such a basic quality of movement it has a chain reaction, fundamentally changing every aspect of motion. It isn't the same dance.

A pump involves a double action energy applied at both ends of the stroke. Doing that causes the body to attempt to retard energy that it has accumalated... it is working against itself.

Bouncing does have the lack of a ceiling beyond the natural degradation of energy as it pushes the body through space. THe key is the controlled use of energy which keeps the bounce fitting to movement and posture of the dance. If any of those three things changes the dance itself becomes extremely different.

The vast majority of the moves in WCS and Lindy Hop are the same. They can be danced side by side to the same music. You can even have the same two people dancing the two forms, doing the same moves on video tape on a split screen... how could you tell the two apart? Their personal styling isn't going to really change much, the moves are the same, same counts etc. Fundamental body movement.

[jon]

You can be against it, but from a labanotation stand point they aren't doing Lindy Hop.

Wow, does anyone actually use Labanotation for swing dance? I had the impression it had largely fallen out of favor even in the performance dance worlds, in favor of video.

[jdavidb]

I think the heart of swing is too big to be mandated by labanotation.

double action energy applied at both ends of the stroke

Variable, adjustable action. There is in fact something at both ends of this stroke we are addressing. Since one end is constant, the floor, making the other end constant in a rigid manner would be the only way to bounce off both ends. This would probably look like when someone is goofing around on a trampoline, keeping their upper body at one level and thrusting their legs down into it then letting only their legs bounce back up. Something like that could be when applying useless non-Lindy Hop energy would occur, but I wouldn't want to ban a humorous move like that from swing either. That's 2-way bouncing. The alternative is to not catch & bounce the upward stroke back down with the upper end, but that is absorption because you are not really keeping the upper body firmly connected to it for a blatant hopping upward action, yet the body is still up there doing something. Absorption must be followed by a reaction at some point or else a collapse would occur. So we could say that a stroke can bounce out of an absorption from the incoming stroke. That would be like the previous trampoline thing. I don't see people do that. People look more like they are just releasing it, allowing it to fall out from the upper body for the downward stroke, catching and absorbing with the knees, ankles and ball of the foot, and then goes the up stroke. Overall, the energy is off, on, off, on like a pump. Bounce would be on, on, on, on.

[Swing Kitten]

ahh nomenclature!

[d nice]

Wow, does anyone actually use Labanotation for swing dance? I had the impression it had largely fallen out of favor even in the performance dance worlds, in favor of video.

Labanotation is a wonderful thing for defining motion. Video is great for recording overall movement and moves. HOwever if you really want to know what is going on in minute detail, labanotation is still the best way IMNSHO.

[Flat Shoes]

Still, regardless of whether it's bouncing or pumping, I'd never claim that an elderly couple who is walking through Lindy Hop steps or someone with knee or hip problems is doing "not swing / not Lindy Hop". Those are examples of non-bouncing, non-pumping which illustrate why I am not in favor of such exclusive, constraining idealism.

One thing is a fact, another thing is actively using it to exclude someone.

Even though I might be of the opionion that this couple was not doing Lindy, I would never use that fact to exclude them, look down at them or treat them or their dance as inferior in any way!

[d nice]

double action energy applied at both ends of the stroke

That's 2-way bouncing.

No that is a pump action. Take a water pump, a bicycle pump, any kind of pump... you must apply energy down for the push and energy up for the pull... energy applied in both ways... On/On, On/On, On/On. Or in a binary system 11111111.

People look more like they are just releasing it, allowing it to fall out from the upper body for the downward stroke, catching and absorbing with the knees, ankles and ball of the foot, and then goes the up stroke. Overall, the energy is off, on, off, on like a pump. Bounce would be on, on, on, on.

People aren't "releasing" they are only using a specific amount of energy that ceases to be able to fight gravity and move the body when it reaches a certain point. Gravity exerts its influnce doing the "absobtion" you are talking about and then as the body starts to fall gives it energy on the down stroke. The muscles (mainly in the legs, but including the lower back and abs) absorb this energy and redirect it up and out (forward, back, side, and oblique). It is Off/On, Off/On, Off/On, Off/On or 01010101.

[Flat Shoes]

To all beginners: Please don't be intimidated by this discussion into thinking that bouncing is difficult. This discussion has developed into being very technical, in a way that no beginner, unless having a special interest, need to worry about.

Just relax, bend your knees a little, bounce towards the floor on the beats and have fun. Like the banana guy here: :banana: YAY!

[pygmalion]

Well said, flat shoes! :kissme:

[Flat Shoes]

Well said, flat shoes! :kissme:

Ohh.. you... er... :oops:

[d nice]

What Flat Feet said.

The movement in the Lindy Hop should be completely natural. All this stuff is theory and mechanics... the body should not require the brain to micro-manage it to dance Lindy Hop. As a matter of fact the more thinking you do to control stuff like bounce the further away from the proper movement you tend to get.

[jdavidb]

The method of recharge for pumping could be passive or active. The recharge in Lindy Hop would for the majority of the time be passive. A pull is not required for a pump to be a pump on the push stroke. Any sort of recharge is all that is required, and the only reason it is required is for the sake of repetitive action. We've both already said the recharge is virtually the off part. At least we got the on, off, on, off part.

The fall out of the body I was referring to is when the foot is not on the floor, the leg is doing the down stroke, heading down to connect to the floor before engaging to catch the weight. I don't push down during this time. The only time a push (of varying sorts) happens is after that floor connection.

[goldfish]

actually that banana guy helped :uplaugh: i had a really fun bouncey dance last night, thanks!

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: