What Makes a Good Swing Dancer?

[pygmalion]

Okay. So just by coincidence, I started dancing in the ballroom world, planning to move into swing later. But when I started trying to move into swing, I kept bumping into walls -- things that were unique to swing dancers. :oops: :lol:

So now I have a question for all you swing dance people. What characteristics make a good swing dancer? Are there particular dance skills? Personality chracteristics? Physical abilities? Or are swing dancers the same as all the other dancers out there (with an enhanced love of 40's music LOL)?


What makes a good swing dancer? What do you think?

[jon]

Swing dancers tend to have a much stronger connection to & passion about the music they dance to than ballroom dancers, for one. But I suspect that's more of an effect than a cause, for most people.

[SDsalsaguy]

Certainly depends on the dancer, but there's definately some truth to what jon says... and it seems to be something that also holds true across the other non-ballroom partnered dances as well.

[Flat Shoes]

Since I don't do Ballroom, I can't say what's different for swing dancers. So this is more general.

What makes a good swing dancer is a person that is smiling, having fun, giving eye contact, plays with his/her partner and enjoys the music! :D

These are the most important factors, though many seem to forget about them. Some people seem to be under the impression swing is solo dancing while holding hands. It's not. :lol:

More technically, what is very important for good dancing is a good connection in the lead/follow arm. It's a relaxed tension that should be present almost all the time.

Swing dancers have a different body posture. But his varies between the different forms of swing. While WCS is more erect, gliding and sexy with stylish arm movements, Lindy dancers are more bouncy, loose, a bit forward bent and a bit sitting down. WCS I guess is more like Ballroom in that sense.

[etchuck]

Swing dancers tend to have a much stronger connection to & passion about the music they dance to than ballroom dancers, for one. But I suspect that's more of an effect than a cause, for most people.

Oh, I'm going to really chide you for that generalization. Then again, all generalizations are generally wrong. ;)

Since I do both, swing dancers do tend to be quite a bit more "free" from the constraints of ballroom syllabus (as it would be the case if you did club salsa vs. ballroom mambo). Those people I have seen doing just lindy/swing/balboa around here tend to be really expressive and wild about just the music they like to dance to. That being said, ballroomers are expressive but in a different way when it comes to dancing swing. The characteristics of dancing within ballroom expectations are different for whatever reason.

But believe me, there are plenty of ballroom dancers who do jive (ballroom swing variant) who are very expressive with dancing.

[etchuck]

Swing dancers have a different body posture. But his varies between the different forms of swing. While WCS is more erect, gliding and sexy with stylish arm movements, Lindy dancers are more bouncy, loose, a bit forward bent and a bit sitting down. WCS I guess is more like Ballroom in that sense.

Actually, that's partly true in my opinion. I don't know if it's so much posture as it is frame vs. connection. Ballroom (especially smooth and standard dances) emphasizes frame a lot while swing (not in ballroom context) is much more on connection. That goes the same with WCS, which I really enjoy dancing. But ballroomers have as much difficulty with WCS as would most people taking it for the first time because WCS is so improvisational and depends so much on connection in ways that ballroom does not as much (because ballroomers connect with their frame).

However, I have noticed and used what I have learned with WCS and used it in my Latin dancing as I have been able to use compression better for leading.

[etchuck]

Okay, to actually answer the question:

I wish swing/lindy/bal dancers were more in love with classic Big Band versus neo-swing or neo-Big Band. They don't play as many "classics" unless they are remade, but you can understand that (quality of recordings is better). What I wish is that we'd play more sock-hop 50's music, but that's another issue.

Basically in swing, I have been told good swing dancers have strong connections to lead spins and various kick combinations. I haven't mastered kicks. Frankly I am no big fan of those kicks because depending on who you dance with the timing of kicks is entirely different. Consequently most people will kick only with people they know (which makes sense) so the timing problems of lead-follow there aren't issues.

Lifts and aerials... I won't go there.

Personality wise:
1) They must have a fun time while not losing frame or connection.
2) They must not be creepy. I've covered that.

[Flat Shoes]

I wish swing/lindy/bal dancers were more in love with classic Big Band versus neo-swing or neo-Big Band.

I agree! There's nothing like a live big band knowing their stuff (i.e don't play fast music all night long, but varies in tempo).

Neo-swing is cool, but it's not really the Lindy feeling that Big Band gives. It's nice for variation though.

[d nice]

Actually, that's partly true in my opinion. I don't know if it's so much posture as it is frame vs. connection. Ballroom (especially smooth and standard dances) emphasizes frame a lot while swing (not in ballroom context) is much more on connection. That goes the same with WCS, which I really enjoy dancing. But ballroomers have as much difficulty with WCS as would most people taking it for the first time because WCS is so improvisational and depends so much on connection in ways that ballroom does not as much (because ballroomers connect with their frame).

Connection is derived through body movement and frame. A lot of swing dancers will not address frame specifically but instead will address connection because in order to have good connection you must have good frame and move your body in an appropriate manner.

As an instructor I talk about frame specifically when the body movement is present but the frame has some problems that are minimizing connection rather than maximizing it.

As to people having problems with WCS because of its improvisational manner... that is based entirely on the person. I've seen creative artistic people take to the dance with little training at all and i've seen more analytical people struggle with a lot of personal direction. At least until they over came the idea that there were rules and finite values that were being dealt with.

[delamusica]

Ballroom (especially smooth and standard dances) emphasizes frame a lot while swing (not in ballroom context) is much more on connection.

What do you consider the difference between frame and connection? I always thought of them as more or less the same thing - ballroom frame isn't just holding your arms at a certain position, but a standardized connection . . . a frame that isn't a connection with your partner is just akward(sp?) and stiff . . .

[jon]

Swing dancers tend to have a much stronger connection to & passion about the music they dance to than ballroom dancers...

... But believe me, there are plenty of ballroom dancers who do jive (ballroom swing variant) who are very expressive with dancing.

Er... OK, but the degree of expression in dancing wasn't what I was talking about.

(and, BTW, I've been dancing both swing and ballroom for about 15 years, so am more likely to be swayed by arguments more specific than "Since I do both" - what I opined may be right or wrong, but it isn't rooted in ignorance of ballroom dancing).

[Swing Kitten]

connection is created and maintained throught the frame... frame is the conduit in which weight is transfered, leads are lead, and connection lives-- it's the method of communication.

[hepcat]

I'd say what makes a good swing dancer is:

proper frame
good grasp of newton's 1st law (...an object in motion stays in motion)
seated posture
no resistance (i.e. when you push a follow, they don't push back, but rather move instead)
arms are always in dance position (whenever possible)
no thumbs!
upper body moves very little in relation to the lower body
staying in one place on the dance floor when not trying to travel
clear but soft lead
awareness of where your partner is & is within arm's reach
staying on the track
energy and enthusiasm
vocalizing: whoops and wails ;o)

When a follow can't describe the moves they do, you know they're good because they're not doing moves, they're just going where you put them. There are certain signals that tell you when to tripple or double step. If you know them, then you're really good. When dancers think in terms of two beats instead of 6 or 8, they're damn good.

Did I miss anything?

[swinginstyle]

I used to work in a ballroom studio for slightly over a year. Now, that I've been dancing outside the studio, I can see the differences more clearly. Social swing dancing is all about the proper connection and technique. The frame is used, but not overly emphasized. Ballroom also appears too stiff and unyielding for me. Also, watching ballroom dancers dancing swing, whether it be ECS, WCS, or what they call lindy, tends to be humorous experiences, because of their frame. They need to loosen up and focus on leading with their body more without the awkward stiffness.

[pygmalion]

I'd say what makes a good swing dancer is:

vocalizing: whoops and wails ;o)

Did I miss anything?

You crack me up! :lol: :lol: Welcome, hepcat. 8)

[Spitfire]

Also, watching ballroom dancers dancing swing, whether it be ECS, WCS, or what they call lindy, tends to be humorous experiences, because of their frame. They need to loosen up and focus on leading with their body more without the awkward stiffness.

Have I been taught differently?

There is particular emphasis on body leads in WCS in all the classes I've ever been to; in fact, it's stressed at some point with just about every dance that I have learned. FWIW, while most of my dance education has been at the studios it's been mostly group classes if that means anything.

Whenever I'm dancing an ECS or other dance I just don't have any feeling of it being stiff and unyielding, but rather loose and free - to me anyway.

[pygmalion]

I think it's a common misconception among some swing dancers that all ballroom dancers focus on pattern memorization at the expense of learning lead/follow concepts and frame. Unfortunately, that stereotype is often true, but not always.

My view, having had many ballroom, some salsa and some swing teachers, is that you have good and bad everywhere. The good teachers all teach lead/follow and proper use of the frame, regardless of their discipline. Those concepts are essential to good partner dance, I think.

Maybe another thing that leads to ballroom dancers being perceived as not so hot in the connection department is the teaching approach many studios take -- steps first, then partnership, styling, etc. The swing teachers I've had seem to start out with lead/follow concepts on day one. Not sure why there's a difference in approach, but that's what I've seen. *shrug*

[Flat Shoes]

Maybe another thing that leads to ballroom dancers being perceived as not so hot in the connection department is the teaching approach many studios take -- steps first, then partnership, styling, etc. The swing teachers I've had seem to start out with lead/follow concepts on day one. Not sure why there's a difference in approach, but that's what I've seen. *shrug*

Oh! Oh! I want to comment on this... but I gotta run! Cya! :car:

[pygmalion]

Dying to hear what you have to say. I have my own (jaundiced) view of why the dance studios sometimes push steps at the expense of other important dance concepts, but I'll leave them to another day. Gotta keep the old blood pressure down. LOL.

[pygmalion]

btw, I'm not suggesting that ballroom dancers cut a mean rug doing lindy, necessarily. I'm saying that good ballroom dancers do use lead/follow and frame. There's no way they could do standard dances or smooth dances in closed position if they didn't. It would be impossible.

If I want to learn lindy, I'll go to a lindy teacher, though. :wink: :lol:

[Vince A]

btw, I'm not suggesting that ballroom dancers cut a mean rug doing lindy, necessarily. I'm saying that good ballroom dancers do use lead/follow and frame. There's no way they could do standard dances or smooth dances in closed position if they didn't. It would be impossible.

If I want to learn lindy, I'll go to a lindy teacher, though. :wink: :lol:
. . . and there is only ONE that you should go to!!!

[goldfish]

There are certain signals that tell you when to tripple or double step.



what are these signals? :shock:

[Flat Shoes]

Dying to hear what you have to say.

Putting the pressure on me here :lol:

Well, it was like this. A short while ago I took an instructors course in swing. It was not Lindy, and it's not something I would need if I wanted to teach Lindy here. But it was heavyly sponsored, and I thought it whould be interesting.

It was held at a local dance studio. The course turned out to revolve around this very formalized version of swing. All six count, going back step, tap left, tap right. And it had all these 'syllabus figures, student teacher and bronze'. Very formalized.

Most of the classes (like 25 out of 30 hours in total) was about learning basic step patterns and the figures. We learned how to walk through the steps as lead and follower, with and without partner.

The crazy thing was, during all these hours, not a single sentence was said about connection or frame. Not one thing! :shock:

Can you imagine that? We're supposed to learn how to teach others to dance, and lead and follow is hardly a subject at all. Everything is just about learning and knowing where to walk, turn 1/4 left, 1/2 right etc. :nope:

And when it came to the exam, suddenly there's a lot about feet placement. It's a big point when doing the back-step that you replace your right foot (for leads) at the exact same place you moved it from. It's important that at the end of certain figures, you end up with your feet a bit closer together etc. etc :roll:

I mean, this course on teaching swing is as far from how I would teach Lindy as I can imagine. We're supposed to teach people to dance, and we learn how to walk through figures like mechanical robots with no feelings at all. :doh:

Anyway, I failed. :( And I'm not going to try again, since it will be expensive as **** taking the exam when it's not sponsored. (And as I said, I don't really need it for anything.)

So, that's my story about my experience with formalized ballroom-like teaching of swing. It was an interesting experience.... and now....
:banana: Back to Lindy :banana: Back to dancing :banana:

[Vince A]

Let's see if I can help out . . . there are signals, but it's been a very long time since I've heard or said them . . .

Usually, for a triple step (or double), the couple gets to a face-to-face position . . .

Then the man moves his hand from the shoulder blade area to the middle of the back . . .

Then the man's right elbow "closes up" to close up the couple if he has previously opened his elbow, thus opening up the couple from the above position, which could be coming out of something like a rock step.

[Flat Shoes]

There are certain signals that tell you when to tripple or double step.



what are these signals? :shock:

It should come quite naturally when dancing with a good leader. I've lead good follows who had never done Lindy, only Boogie Woogie (mainly 6 count) in Lindy. And I've had the comment they were hardly aware they were dancing eight count moves and not six count.

There is a marked difference in leading a six and an eight count step. It's in both the speed and the lead on 5 and 6. if you take a basic six count pattern, lead it a bit slower and lead movement on 5 and 6 you can extend it to an eight count pattern, and a good follower should be able to follow without problems and without thinking.

I'm saying this from a leaders point of view, so maybe followers would like to elaborate?

[pygmalion]

It was held at a local dance studio. The course turned out to revolve around this very formalized version of swing. All six count, going back step, tap left, tap right. And it had all these 'syllabus figures, student teacher and bronze'. Very formalized.

Most of the classes (like 25 out of 30 hours in total) was about learning basic step patterns and the figures. We learned how to walk through the steps as lead and follower, with and without partner.

The crazy thing was, during all these hours, not a single sentence was said about connection or frame. Not one thing! :shock:


...


So, that's my story about my experience with formalized ballroom-like teaching of swing. It was an interesting experience.... and now....
:banana: Back to Lindy :banana: Back to dancing :banana:

Yup. There are some cruddy teachers and some abysmal studios out there. I don't want to digress into ballroom-speak, or I'd tell you the story about the first ballroom studio I went to, where the majority of the teachers didn't know as much about proper ballroom footwork as I did. Needless to say, I quit. There are some bad teachers out there, that's for sure. :?

[suek]

There are certain signals that tell you when to tripple or double step.what are these signalsa follow speaks:

When I am connected to my lead, and following (my movement is a hair, a breath, a tiny bit of a beat behind -- or after -- my lead's), and I'm keeping my feet under me, guess what? Triple steps are led. No kidding. Inevitably. As in no choice.

I'll be honest. I experience this rarely. Mostly I keep step step triple step step step triple step as my default rhythm. However, I have been led to triple by (and Damon describes this so much better than I can--I have no physics vocabulary) my weight being pulled through and past my foot.

What helps me to be lead-able into triples is keeping my bounce consistent, making sure my bounce down occurs only on the beats (not the "ands"), keeping my weight over the balls of my feet and my sternum over my knees.

Hope this helps. And I trust DNice to clarify my attempt at explication if needed.

[SDsalsaguy]

Hiya suek! :D

Haven't "seen" you in a while and just wanted to give a virtual wave hello...

How's things? With the business? With dancing? All well I hope.

[suek]

Hiya suek! Haven't "seen" you in a while and just wanted to give a virtual wave hello...how nice. hi back at you. How's things? With the business? With dancing? All well I hope.life is very full and exciting. I've been checking in daily (lurk mode) and it feels great to be moved to take the time to post.

how are things with you?

[SDsalsaguy]

life is very full and exciting.
Sounds great. I'm happy for you.

how are things with you?
If I'm honest than things are fairly good... it just feels like life's been beating me up for the past few months. Nothing that a winning lottery ticket and three months of paid vacation wouldn't fix though... LOL (<-- typed out because I know you don't like the smilies)

[suek]

LOL (<-- typed out because I know you don't like the smilies)now don't cramp your style because of me...I'm used to seeing 'em; and nearly found myself using one recently. but no...not me. yet.

LOfreakingL

good night all

[SDsalsaguy]

....and nearly found myself using one recently.
OK, that demands one... :shock:

good night sue

[Swing Kitten]

I really don't see a much of a difference between smilies and all the internet anacronyms :shrug: seems to all be part of the same vocabulary

ah well... nice to see you Sue... I trust everything turned out well in Florida? (yes it's been that long since I've talked with you)

[suek]

ah well... nice to see you Sue... I trust everything turned out well in Florida? (yes it's been that long since I've talked with you)thanks for asking. mom's mid-treatment and it's really starting to get to her. radiation burning her throat so she can't swallow. chemo doing what chemo does...nausea, fatigue.

sucks.

nice to see you too...I've been reading your stuff frequently. did I hear/see you say something about not swing dancing these days? wassup with that?

[suek]

we've drifted w-a-a-a-a-a-a-y off topic huh? well, it's been a mini reunion DF love fest and everyone else is either gagging or shrugging (yup they make emoticons for this don't they?) and will forgive us some day.

rueful grin

[d nice]

Okay so what makes a good swing dancer or a good swing dance follower?

Sue you have those flashcards made?

[suek]

Okay so what makes a good swing dancer or a good swing dance follower? Sue you have those flashcards made?I'm not even sure what you mean, D, but I've been smiling since I read this earlier on my way out the door. You could mean:
• a card I should make and carry around to remind myself to wait, to be led (I should also add coming forward on the line I'm on, huh?)...we could call this the anti-anticipation card
• a card full of pearls of wisdom about lead/follow connection that we can market to the newbie or too stubborn to learn anything swing dancer
• the cards we were joking about making to put on each other's shoulders to use as crib sheets during our upcoming performance
or some other reference I'm totally not getting
In any case, thanx for the grin

[d nice]

The four/five things that makes a perfect lindy hop follower.

[suek]

The four/five things that makes a perfect lindy hop follower.oh. you mean:
1. have fun
2. athletic posture (knees bent, sternum over knees, weight on ball of foot)
3. frame engaged (not stiff, engaged)
4. feet underneath body and constantly moving (do footwork)
5. let the leader initiate/change/halt my movement

there. simple. not easy, simple.

[jdavidb]

How would triple steps be physically led through a connection by only 1-hand? Something like the 3 through 6 of a sugar push.

[jdavidb]

I guess I should not concern myself with leading triple steps during a 1-hand connection. Instead, I should probably just give her a little spankin' afterwards if she doesn't do it right.

[etchuck]

Drat... sorry I'm late on this...

To me frame and connection are related but not quite the same. Connection to me is the ability to sense leverage and compression. Frame is the body position through which that connection is sensed. I associate "frame" more with ballroom position as opposed to "barroom" club position, but you're right that a proper frame in club dancing is also necessary for proper connection.

The thing is you can achieve proper connection without proper frame. I think we covered that in an earlier thread, but one example is in lindy where the intermediate lindy follower can be facing 90 degrees away from where her arm is connected with the leader, but swivel-steps towards her partner on '1'. That's not exactly the most proper "frame" that anyone suggests (in ballroom anyway), but as long as the connection is there, it's not too bad.

So to that extent, I look for the types of connections I can make with a follower, and the quality of that connection determines how good my follower can be (or leader I can be).

[Swing Kitten]

The thing is you can achieve proper connection without proper frame. I think we covered that in an earlier thread, but one example is in lindy where the intermediate lindy follower can be facing 90 degrees away from where her arm is connected with the leader, but swivel-steps towards her partner on '1'.


while you might be able to 'achieve' a connection without an active frame (and even this I doubt) it's impossible to maintain that connection. Frame is the telephone line which partners of this dance use to communicate. Unless you're dancing torso to torso I've never seen or experienced a true connection without the use of frame.

Just because a follower comes in on "1" does not mean that she's completely doing her job. If her frame was not engaged to motivate her motion forward then she was merely hitting her cue-- and there is a difference... one is following.

You can get by pretty well for a while by hitting those cues and being where you're "supposed" to be... but in doing so you're missing the playful interaction that makes this dance so much fun :D

[Flat Shoes]

I think I want to add my two bits here too.

When talking about Lindy and leading, I don't talk about frames. This too mee menas two things, I don't know exactly how to define a frame and I don't think frame properly covers what we're doing (I might be totallt wrong on that last assumption though.)

I'm not used to formalize this into writing, but here goes. The important thing is proper connection:
:arrow: Proper tension combined with being relaxed.
:arrow: Smooth tension, increase/decrease pressure smoothly
:arrow: Body leading in the sense that the body is in general behind the arm and inititates/supports the movement.
:arrow: Keeping control of your arms. Always keep them where you have power between the arms and the body. Don't collapse and don't let your arms be moved too far behind the body/shoulders.

[d nice]

I think I want to add my two bits here too.

When talking about Lindy and leading, I don't talk about frames. This too mee menas two things, I don't know exactly how to define a frame and I don't think frame properly covers what we're doing (I might be totallt wrong on that last assumption though.)

You are... ;) but don't worry read below.

:arrow: Proper tension combined with being relaxed.
:arrow: Smooth tension, increase/decrease pressure smoothly
:arrow: Body leading in the sense that the body is in general behind the arm and inititates/supports the movement.
:arrow: Keeping control of your arms. Always keep them where you have power between the arms and the body. Don't collapse and don't let your arms be moved too far behind the body/shoulders.

This IS frame. While you may not be able to properly break down what muscle grooups are active and which are relaxed and the associated spcifics... what you described is using and keeping frame.

[d nice]

To me frame and connection are related but not quite the same. Connection to me is the ability to sense leverage and compression. Frame is the body position through which that connection is sensed. I associate "frame" more with ballroom position as opposed to "barroom" club position, but you're right that a proper frame in club dancing is also necessary for proper connection.

This is all true. Frame is not connection, but connection is dependant on frame. I can have a phone line and currently no dial-up internet connection, but I can't have a dial-up internet connection with no phone line.

The thing is you can achieve proper connection without proper frame. I think we covered that in an earlier thread, but one example is in lindy where the intermediate lindy follower can be facing 90 degrees away from where her arm is connected with the leader, but swivel-steps towards her partner on '1'. That's not exactly the most proper "frame" that anyone suggests (in ballroom anyway), but as long as the connection is there, it's not too bad.

I can be physicaly connected to my partner, but I can't have any really usuable "connection" without frame. Frame is how our bodies talk to one in other in this dance and connection is the ability to talk in both directions at the same time. If the follower is facing nearly 180 degrees away from her partner it is possible to still maintain connection (note: this is extremely hard to do because of all the compensation that has to take place from the normal muscle engagement for frame). Frame is not position dependant and as long as you both have frame you can have good connection. CAN have good connection.

[TemptressToo]

The best swing dancers I have noticed can be summed up in one word...

ENERGY.

That's it...it is a whole-hearted dedication to the music and the dance. It is never the people that you could consider "technical" that you notice and enjoy...but the people giving so much of theirselves, you can't help but notice and smile.

I am humored by the difference in the occasional swing I do at little ballroom practice parties. They throw a few in for variety...but it is like dancing to school figures. Now throw the same people in a real life swing dance (dedicated to it) and it is a different world of "full-out" dancing.

The end.

[d nice]

How would triple steps be physically led through a connection by only 1-hand? Something like the 3 through 6 of a sugar push.you don't "lead" a triple step per se... you move your body (which means her body as well) in a manner where triple stepping is the most natural response.

So if you lead a move right, and she doesn't triple step is it really the most natural response? She is moving with an assumption of a move rather than letting you move her.

For example in a sugar push the follower is coming forward generally on th estep step as she hits that first step of the triple it gets shortened due to the compression, the second step of the triple is a weight change as she settles into the compression and the third is a catching her body as the leader "pushes" her backwards. A follower who knows she isdoing a sugar push and knows that she will come forward "stop" and get sent back will do a touch step because they are thinking ahead and executing a move rather than dancing the current movement.