Tango Styles

[tangonuevo]

I am very curious as to what "tango styles" people think exist and distinguishes them. I will start with my belief that Milonguero, "Classic Salon", and Nuevo (modern if you will) have enough differences to be called different styles.

Thanks
TN

[Tango-ne]

Just last night, one of my instructors said there are three styles of tango: waltz, milonga, and tango. He said that waltz's character was smooth motion, milonga's character was stepping with the beat, and tango's character was connection between the partners. Last night's lesson was in making the steps small, and keeping the man's frame tight, and having the woman step with her foot already pointed towards the man so as to avoid pivoting...all in the effort to keep a close connection, even in open embrace.

[opendoor]

... and Nuevo (modern if you will) ..

I know I´m standing alone: but for me Nuevo is an old style. Neo is modern, and some variants of contemporary Salón, too. And remember, there is a renaissance of milonguero. Last week Anton Gazenbeek visited Hamburg, next week Raoul Bravo will do. Both representatives of another old Tango style (Show - Fantasia) which was hip when I started TA, fading out then almost completely, but returning actually with great energy on stage.

[Dave Bailey]

To me, the defining characteristic of nuevo is that it's based around the concept of a circular motion, rather than a walk. So that's a clear and definite difference between nuevo and traditional.

Of course, I could be totally wrong :D

[Dave Bailey]

Just last night, one of my instructors said there are three styles of tango: waltz, milonga, and tango.
Yes, but there are sub-forms of tango (or "Tango tango" if you want :) )

So you have:


Waltz (Vals)
Milonga
Tango

Traditional Tango
Nuevo Tango
Show Tango
etc.


He said that waltz's character was smooth motion, milonga's character was stepping with the beat, and tango's character was connection between the partners.
Sounds about right to me.

[opendoor]

To me, the defining characteristic of nuevo is that it's based around the concept of a circular motion, rather than a walk. So that's a clear and definite difference between nuevo and traditional.

Of course, I could be totally wrong :D

I would agree partially: Nuevo started with that circular and tangential movements, but, a lot of modern Salón stylists now do the same. (Likewise the off-axis portion of the dance)

[tangonuevo]

To me, the defining characteristic of nuevo is that it's based around the concept of a circular motion, rather than a walk. So that's a clear and definite difference between nuevo and traditional.

Of course, I could be totally wrong :D

I am "often wrong but seldom in doubt", so take this for what it is worth.

My view of tango nuevo is that it has two significant characters:
1. It is strongly energy based. I must lead, and the follow must sense, energy at least as much as position, weight, axis, etc that I think of as more classical notions.
2. The frame can be utterly and totally broken relative to classical tango, even to the extent that the connection might sometimes resemble swing style connection more than any classic tango connection.

[opendoor]

My view of tango nuevo: ..
1. It is strongly energy based. ...
2. The frame can be utterly and totally broken relative to classical tango, ...

hi TN, agreed, but it would apply to the stage - show - fantasia Tango style as well!

[tangonuevo]

hi TN, agreed, but it would apply to the stage - show - fantasia Tango style as well!
OK. But is Stage Tango 100% lead follow?? I thought it also incorporated choreographed/signaled moves that wouldn't work as pure lead/follow.

OTOH, I know nothing from stage tango except that it is danced for an audience. I guess that I also think of tango nuevo as strictly, and 100%, for the couple dancing it.
TN

[kieronneedscake]

Another style that you've all missed: Tango de los pasteles

Characterised as a broadening of milonguero with other stylistic influences and intermittent silliness.

I just thought I'd put this in writing so you all know where and when it started, such that in 30-50 years time this kind of debate need not arise. (No, I'm not being serious. Kinda poignant though. The definitions evolve along with our dancing and not everyone's style fits nicely into neat little boxes.)

[tangonuevo]

Another style that you've all missed: Tango de los pasteles ......

Point taken. I find the stylistic characterization useful in that is how I to first order decide how to dance with a given follow. I have studied and lead the several styles I listed above. But there are many Milonguero follows who can't follow, and have absolutely no interest in learning to follow, nuevo. Similarly, some follows don't want to dance on-body, or perhaps for a Milonga don't want to remain on-body, but do very well with a classic style. Etc.

My categorization of styles not intended as an academic exercise.

[bastet]

Point taken. I find the stylistic characterization useful in that is how I to first order decide how to dance with a given follow. I have studied and lead the several styles I listed above. But there are many Milonguero follows who can't follow, and have absolutely no interest in learning to follow, nuevo. Similarly, some follows don't want to dance on-body, or perhaps for a Milonga don't want to remain on-body, but do very well with a classic style. Etc.

My categorization of styles not intended as an academic exercise.

I agree with yout that I have experienced 3 general styles when out social dancing- salon "v" embrace, milonguero (flat on embrace) and nuevo (usually mixing a "v" with open embrace).

I tend to group villa urquiza in with salon, even though the body positions Jennifer taught me (boob boob boob boob - her words- pardon me! :p) with squared up hips and feet aren't the same as a "v" embrace but all the dissociation techniques are there which makes it more in line with Salon than milonguero style.

I find nuevo the most energetic and I tend to put myself in a sort of energized "ready for anything" "full of surprises" way of approaching the dance when I dance nuevo with someone.

This is not how I dance when I am dancing full on close embrace (boob boob rather than boob boob boob boob), where I find myself exploring the opposite end of the scale...going for maximum body connection, and more of a "zen" like meditiative state where the simple repetitive and rhythmic variations are very soothing and not to be disturbed.

I've asked multiple masters about this and they all have told me the same thing, when they are dancing flat on close embrace (with a follows arm around their neck and cheek to cheek) they tend to not make any adjustments to the embrace during the dance rather than disturb it.

I find moving from salon to nuevo and back very compatible because of their closer technical ties. Whereas I don't prefer mixing too much nuevo or salon with milonguero, since it would likely mean moving the embrace away from a flat on style to accomodate it.

I try not to let multiple names for things that are essentially the same phase me too much, names may come and go...but these 3 embraces and genres seem to be what other people notice and agree that they have enough differing techniques that they warrent being called different styles that feel different when danced socially under part of the general umbrella of tango. I just tend to group by these 3 embrace styles and let the names come or go.

[Zoopsia59]

This is not how I dance when I am dancing full on close embrace (boob boob rather than boob boob boob boob), where I find myself exploring the opposite end of the scale...going for maximum body connection, and more of a "zen" like meditiative state where the simple repetitive and rhythmic variations are very soothing and not to be disturbed.

I've asked multiple masters about this and they all have told me the same thing, when they are dancing flat on close embrace (with a follows arm around their neck and cheek to cheek) they tend to not make any adjustments to the embrace during the dance rather than disturb it.

I find moving from salon to nuevo and back very compatible because of their closer technical ties. Whereas I don't prefer mixing too much nuevo or salon with milonguero, since it would likely mean moving the embrace away from a flat on style to accomodate it.
.

I'm becoming really glad that I primarily follow and I can just go with whatever style the leader leads and forget all this stuff... I try to do as many styles as possible so that I dance rather than sit, but I don't really analyze them much... I just try to be ready for most anything as a follower.

That said, I find moving in and out of the embrace smoothly to be a rare skill. Most of the people I have danced with dance either open or closed and don't vary it. There are only a few leaders I've danced with that can vary the embrace and have a fluid embrace work.

Most who try are awkward and many dont' realize that the woman shouldn't have to GUESS when to come in or go out.. the leader should make the nessesary change to effect it wihout expecting HER to do it. After all, as a follower, she has a responsibility to do her part to maintain the relationship of their bodies. She would be incorrect to move into him or away from him on her own, yes? So he has to make it happen DESPITE her natural tendency to keep an already set distance from him. I have had leaders try to close the embrace by simply moving into me and then correcting me when I move. Of course I move back... Thats what I do when the leader moves forward, and vice versa.

But even with someone who can vary the embrace cleanly and indicate the lead clearly, I find going from a milonguero (for lack of a better term and we all seem to agree what we mean by that) ... going from a leaning milonguero flat on embrace where you are sharing an axis to an open embrace where you must get onto your own axis to be EXTREMELY hard. I wonder if it is unusual for people to go from milonguero to open for the reasons they clain... ie: connection, closeness, an intimacy of dance, feeling whatever, and how much of it is simply because its a real challenge to change the axis so profoundly while moving and trying to lead or follow.

Or maybe I'm just a boob...

or a boob-boob...

[Angel HI]

OK....here's the list; part fact - part farce.

Apilado
Almagro
Canyengue (http://www.tejastango.com/tango_styles.html#canyengue)
Club-Style Tango (http://www.tejastango.com/tango_styles.html#club)
Fantasia (http://www.tejastango.com/tango_styles.html#fantasia)
Milonguero-Style Tango (http://www.tejastango.com/tango_styles.html#milonguero)
Orillero-Style Tango (http://www.tejastango.com/tango_styles.html#orillero)
Nuevo Tango (http://www.tejastango.com/tango_styles.html#nuevo)
Liquid Tango (http://www.tejastango.com/tango_styles.html#liquid)
Nuevo Milonguero (http://www.tejastango.com/tango_styles.html#nuevo_milonguero)
Salon-Style Tango (http://www.tejastango.com/tango_styles.html#salon)

Tango Argentino
Tango Oriental (uruguayo)
Tango Liso


Then, there's this addendum....
....but for me Nuevo is an old style. Neo is modern, and some variants of contemporary Salón, too.

OD, they are basically the same. Neo (actually first used to reference music) is a more fluid (often slower) form/style of Nuevo. But, add it to the list if you must.

I agree with you that I have experienced 3 general styles when out social dancing- salon "v" embrace, milonguero (flat on embrace) and nuevo (usually mixing a "v" with open embrace).

I find nuevo the most energetic and I tend to put myself in a sort of energized "ready for anything" "full of surprises" way of approaching the dance when I dance nuevo with someone.

I find this interesting b/c Nuevo is actually quite fluid (not energetic), and extremely lead/follow based.

I try not to let multiple names for things that are essentially the same phase me too much, names may come and go...but these 3 embraces and genres seem to be what other people notice and agree that they have enough differing techniques that they warrent being called different styles that feel different when danced socially under part of the general umbrella of tango. I just tend to group by these 3 embrace styles and let the names come or go.

Well said.

[Peaches]

I agree with yout that I have experienced 3 general styles when out social dancing- salon "v" embrace, milonguero (flat on embrace) and nuevo (usually mixing a "v" with open embrace).

I tend to group villa urquiza in with salon, even though the body positions Jennifer taught me (boob boob boob boob - her words- pardon me! :p) with squared up hips and feet aren't the same as a "v" embrace but all the dissociation techniques are there which makes it more in line with Salon than milonguero style.

I find nuevo the most energetic and I tend to put myself in a sort of energized "ready for anything" "full of surprises" way of approaching the dance when I dance nuevo with someone.

This is not how I dance when I am dancing full on close embrace (boob boob rather than boob boob boob boob), where I find myself exploring the opposite end of the scale...going for maximum body connection, and more of a "zen" like meditiative state where the simple repetitive and rhythmic variations are very soothing and not to be disturbed.

[...snip...]

I try not to let multiple names for things that are essentially the same phase me too much, names may come and go...but these 3 embraces and genres seem to be what other people notice and agree that they have enough differing techniques that they warrent being called different styles that feel different when danced socially under part of the general umbrella of tango. I just tend to group by these 3 embrace styles and let the names come or go.Interesting. I agree. Wholeheartedly!

Because of how I heard things explained early on, I think of the styles this way:


Milonguero, to me, is what you call "boob boob boob boob." The way I heard it explained was, "For milonguero, ladies, you let the man feel both your boobs." It can be shared axis (apilado, a subset) or not.
By contrast, Salon is "letting him feel just one boob," aka V-embrace. It can be either closed embrace or open.
Nuevo is characterized by playing with movement that incorporate extreme dissociation (lady's back sacada comes to mind, offhand), and/or counterbalancing of weight (volcadas, colgadas and the like).

Furthermore, I've always understood there to be variations in the type of musical interpretation. (Although the differences tend to be more between milonguero and everything else.)



Milonguero, IMO, is characterized by smaller, rhythmic movements. It tends to seem to fit well with the oldest styles of music, where much more emphasis was placed on the strong, driving rhythm.
Salon, OTOH, is characterized by somewhat larger (depending on the floorspace available) movements and a more lyrical interpretation. Again, it fits with slightly later styles of musical composition.
Nuevo also seems to work well with more lyrical interpretations, and it seems most fitting for electronic or alternative music. IMO, at least.

No, I can't provide musical examples offhand. Sorry.

However, despite all this... I really have to day I don't give a rat's butt about any of it. Music...leader...dance...end of story. I've learned all three "styles," I'm comfortable with all of them (and, if you want to bring Canyengue in there, too--characterized by an almost perpendicular embrace, more bent knees, small and simple steps, and rhythmic interpretations--I'm comfortable with that, as well), and however the guy wants to lead is fine by me. Anything is preferable to sitting. :D

Neo (actually first used to reference music)That was my understanding, also.

I find this interesting b/c Nuevo is actually quite fluid (not energetic), and extremely lead/follow based.I didn't get the impression that Bastet felt it was less fluid or less lead/follow based. I think it can be fluid, lead/follow, and energetic. Perhaps I'm just biased, though, since I feel the same way about a lot of Nuevo. When a guy starts leading that way I kind of mentally prepare myself to follow whatever crazy fun stuff he can throw at me...fluidly, of course. ;)

Most who try are awkward and many dont' realize that the woman shouldn't have to GUESS when to come in or go out.. the leader should make the nessesary change to effect it wihout expecting HER to do it. After all, as a follower, she has a responsibility to do her part to maintain the relationship of their bodies. She would be incorrect to move into him or away from him on her own, yes? So he has to make it happen DESPITE her natural tendency to keep an already set distance from him. I have had leaders try to close the embrace by simply moving into me and then correcting me when I move. Of course I move back... Thats what I do when the leader moves forward, and vice versa.

But even with someone who can vary the embrace cleanly and indicate the lead clearly, I find going from a milonguero (for lack of a better term and we all seem to agree what we mean by that) ... going from a leaning milonguero flat on embrace where you are sharing an axis to an open embrace where you must get onto your own axis to be EXTREMELY hard. I wonder if it is unusual for people to go from milonguero to open for the reasons they clain... ie: connection, closeness, an intimacy of dance, feeling whatever, and how much of it is simply because its a real challenge to change the axis so profoundly while moving and trying to lead or follow.I agree that not many men seem to be able to vary their embrace smoothly, without mixing it up with what their leading. If it's done well, I never notice the change until it's happened...if it's done poorly...oy. :rolleyes:

I can't say that I've ever really noticed a difference in difficulty moving between various embraces. I just find that it happens. Then again, my teacher prefers apilado and nuevo, so he tends to move between them with some frequency, so I guess I'm used to it from lessons. I actually wish more guys would learn to vary their embrace, and to play with it. I understand that everyone has their own style (still looking for mine...), and that leaders have way more to think about than I do (thank you, gentlemen), and that they'll use a type of embrace that is most comfortable for them. ...but I still like to mix it up...it just opens up so many possibilities when everything is fair game... Sometimes I just feel so...constrained...bored, even...by everyone dancing Salon.

...I suppose, perhaps, I'm just an "immature" tanguera, though, and my desires will change as my dancing improves...

(*pout* ...I still like the fun nuevo stuff, though... *pout*)

[Peaches]

Just last night, one of my instructors said there are three styles of tango: waltz, milonga, and tango. He said that waltz's character was smooth motion, milonga's character was stepping with the beat, and tango's character was connection between the partners. Last night's lesson was in making the steps small, and keeping the man's frame tight, and having the woman step with her foot already pointed towards the man so as to avoid pivoting...all in the effort to keep a close connection, even in open embrace.Not so much. Tango, vals ("tango waltz") and milonga are the body of three very interrelated dances which comprise Argentine Tango. All three dances are danced by all styles.

You have a bit of a ballroom background, IIRC, no? Consider tango/vals/milonga sort of like the set of dances that make up Standard. The differences in styles that are being discussed around here lately (milonguero, salon, nuevo, VU, etc.) are sort of like the difference between Standard and Smooth (they both have tango, waltz, foxtrot, vw), or between a Latin cha and a Rhythm cha.

Sort of. (I'm not getting into the intricacies of the analogy. I know it's not perfect. I don't feel like debating it.)

[bastet]

Woah- lots of discussion since I went to bed last night....

Peaches- yes- you are right- I did not mean to imply that I thought nuevo was not lead and follow. When a leader wants to dance nuevo I generallly prepare for ANYthing to occur, not knowing what that anything may be....(though I can be nearly certain some very deep volcadas will surface somewhere)....and yes- it can be fluid....slow Piazolla....slow electronic...or pretty peppy....Otros Aires....Gotan Project....but the movements tend to require lots of energy and tone regardless of how they are carried out (think ballet)...whereas...when I am dancing milonguero....the leads I like to dance with tend to go for relaxed and comfortable...intimacy, rhythm and not sudden surprises like overturns and so forth which generaly don't show up in the milonguero vocabulary because they'd require a change of embrace.

Yes- the way I learned milonguero is "the guy feels both your boobs" but the....errr... arrangment...is boob on top of boob (boob boob)...fully square on, rather than offset in the upper torso the way Jennifer taught me (her boob his then her boob and then his...WOW! how....technical!) I have back problems and that offset she tried to get me to do just didn't work for me so I prefer completely straight on.

And the "v' is like you say...the guy get to feel one of my boobs (ok...they can at least imagine I have cleavage....)

[bastet]

Not so much. Tango, vals ("tango waltz") and milonga are the body of three very interrelated dances which comprise Argentine Tango. All three dances are danced by all styles.

You have a bit of a ballroom background, IIRC, no? Consider tango/vals/milonga sort of like the set of dances that make up Standard. The differences in styles that are being discussed around here lately (milonguero, salon, nuevo, VU, etc.) are sort of like the difference between Standard and Smooth (they both have tango, waltz, foxtrot, vw), or between a Latin cha and a Rhythm cha.

Sort of. (I'm not getting into the intricacies of the analogy. I know it's not perfect. I don't feel like debating it.)

Hey- I kind of like the analogy....and I think it makes sense....

[bastet]

I find going from a milonguero (for lack of a better term and we all seem to agree what we mean by that) ... going from a leaning milonguero flat on embrace where you are sharing an axis to an open embrace where you must get onto your own axis to be EXTREMELY hard. I wonder if it is unusual for people to go from milonguero to open for the reasons they clain... ie: connection, closeness, an intimacy of dance, feeling whatever, and how much of it is simply because its a real challenge to change the axis so profoundly while moving and trying to lead or follow.

Or maybe I'm just a boob...

or a boob-boob...

Probly a boob boob like me? :D And I agree completely on the difficulty of going from milonguero to open- IMO, this is the only thing I dislike when dancing with a leader is one who tries to go from full on milonguero to full on open...not only do I find this very hard to do mid dance, but also for me it would involve a "change of mindset" for lack of a better term. I tend to go in to comfy mode and don't like being removed from it, when dancing milonguero style...whereas...if a leader starts in open or a closed "v" then I generally have some expectations that the dance is going to follow some other direction...and so I prepare myself mentally for things like sacadas of all sorts, ganchos, dissociation and extreme dissociation, etc etc....whereas I know most of that is not going to happen in milonguero style and I generally am not wanting it to anyway....

So I think it is for both reasons, it is both very hard to do (though not impossible) and for me, at least, there's a mental aspect to it as well... "V" to open feels fine, open to "v" feels fine....milonguero to "v'- also ok....milonguero to open...not so pleasant feeling both because of the technical difficulty and that it more or less abruptly moves me out of the "comfortable zen zone" I try to get into in milonguero style....though I have had leaders who go from milonguero to "v" to open, using the "v" as a transition and that has worked ok.

[newbie]

I am very curious as to what "tango styles" people think exist

You want to know which styles exist, or which styles people think exist?

Yesterday I entered a class I hadn't tried yet and the teacher explained that there were four styles, and he demonstrated them.

The four styles were: "The nuevo, a.k.a fantasia [he danced wide open], the milonguero [he danced closer, on axis], the orillero [he danced apilado] and the canyengue [he danced apilado again but with more leaning]. They belong to different gangs of the Buenos-Aires outlaws, and they use the different styles to recognize who is from their gang and who is not."

All and everything he said is wrong of course but this is what he thinks and this is what he's been teaching for twenty years, among other peculiarities ("The tango was invented in Italy around year 1450").

[Zoopsia59]

The four styles were: "The nuevo, a.k.a fantasia [he danced wide open], the milonguero [he danced closer, on axis], the orillero [he danced apilado] and the canyengue [he danced apilado again but with more leaning].

Uh.... :rolleyes:

walking way, shaking head...

[tangonuevo]

... going from a leaning milonguero flat on embrace where you are sharing an axis to an open embrace where you must get onto your own axis to be EXTREMELY hard....
If you haven't had a chance to dance with Susana Miller, I suggest that you look for one. Her milonguero connection is flat on and extremely light. Yes, you are forward into the connection, but you are not leaning on each other. No pushing, no leaning!

TN

[Me]

I do not understand why you continue to mention Susana?

[Me]

... "For milonguero, ladies, you let the man feel both your boobs." It can be shared axis (apilado, a subset) or not.
By contrast, Salon is "letting him feel just one boob...
:uplaugh:

[Heather2007]

I do not understand why you continue to mention Susana?

Because Susana is Desperately Sought? :-)

[tangonuevo]

I do not understand why you continue to mention Susana?
"Susana Miller is one of the most prominent teachers, choreographers, and dancers of the old milonguero style of tango (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tango_%28dance%29). She introduced term Milonguero Style in the mid- '90s. In that time she was an assistant to Pedro 'Tete' Rusconi. Clarin, the Buenos Aires major newspaper called her one of the four most important figures of the contemporary (2007) tango. She was born in Buenos Aires and is teaching there as well as internationally." Wikipedia

"Susana Miller is the most prominent teacher in the world of the “milonguero” style of tango..." Tangoafficionado web site

And about a zillion more such references....

I suspect that I may be told that the Wikipedia got it wrong, as did Tango Afficionado, as did the others. But I do personally view Susana as one of the central authorities on Milonguero style.

The Milongueando ( http://www.milongueandoenba.com/new/english/home.html ) convened by Susana ( & Maria Plazaola ) certainly presents some of the, if not the, best milonguero style instructors that exist. Finally, Susana is very approachable and very available, teaching all over the US and Canada.

Is there some reason to think that she should not serve as a touchstone for this style? Especially here in the US where it is not so easy to just walk up to one of the Milongueros from back in the day at your local Milonga??

NT

[Ampster]

Originally Posted by Me http://dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=625725#post625725)
I do not understand why you continue to mention Susana?


"Susana Miller is one of the most prominent teachers, choreographers, and dancers of the old milonguero style of tango (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tango_%28dance%29). She introduced term Milonguero Style in the mid- '90s. In that time she was an assistant to Pedro 'Tete' Rusconi. Clarin, the Buenos Aires major newspaper called her one of the four most important figures of the contemporary (2007) tango. She was born in Buenos Aires and is teaching there as well as internationally." Wikipedia

"Susana Miller is the most prominent teacher in the world of the “milonguero” style of tango..." Tangoafficionado web site

And about a zillion more such references....


Susana is great. But, she is not the only one.

You should try dancing with either Muma (http://www.bendtango.com/muma/) (danced with her) who was once the long time partner of the late Ricardo Vidort, AND, Alicia Pons (http://www.aliciapons.com.ar/home-ingles.htm) both true milongueras, and both beatiful to dance with.

IMHO, Muma (http://www.bendtango.com/muma/) is the one with the best connection of the three.

[Steve Pastor]

And your definition of "best connection"?

[Ampster]

And your definition of "best connection"?

This_Thread (http://dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=30135)

[Zoopsia59]

"Susana Miller is one of the most prominent teachers, choreographers, and dancers of the old milonguero style of tango (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tango_%28dance%29). She introduced term Milonguero Style in the mid- '90s. In that time she was an assistant to Pedro 'Tete' Rusconi.

Its interesting to me that you say Susana does not incorporate any apilado lean and uses a light connectin and yet, theoretically, she is advancing the style of Tete.

I have not had a class with Susana or watched her much on video, but I HAVE taken workshops with Tete and also studied the Bridge to the Tango Tete' videos as well as a couple of YouTube ones.

There is definitely some lean there. And I would NOT call the amount of lean that his partner uses, a "light embrace". Not trying to be rude or obnoxious when I say this, but the simple truth is that Tete (and quite a few of the other old milongueros) has quite a belly on him. Without any leaning, his partner's chest would be MUCH further from his than it ever is. And I can see distinct forward pressure (and her resistance) in his lead.

Now maybe there's not so much lean as to create a shared axis.. but its not really close to what I'd call "upright" either.

And of course we have to keep in mind, that if Susana is fashioning her "milonguero" style after Tete (which from your description doesn't make sense to me) each of the old Milongueros had their own "style". Its a useful classification of a particular thing, but I'd think its a fallacy to assume thats how "old milongueros" danced, especially as to lean and pressure. They probably varied quite a bit in reality.

I can't say... I didn't dance with them when I was there, but originality and invention were crucial concepts for them, yes? A strive to be unique? So I would expect quite a bit of variation. Tete "revived" (repopularized) close embrace fairly recently in Tango's history. I imagine there were plenty of other ways "milongueros" were dancing if you could go back in time.

But I'm not a tango historian... I'm just going by what seems logical and waht I've observed.

[Me]

tangonuevo,

As evidenced by your posts here, I gather that you tend to fixate, rather defensively I might add, on names (of both instructors and styles). We all like to give credit where it is due, and we like to at times use specific quotes from workshops or classes (or post video clips) to illustrate points. Several of us have tango idols, and of course we have preferences of style. To fixate, however, on one person is not only odd, but limiting, IMO. When you take everything you see and process it from one perspective, you will never allow yourself to fully understand what all tango has to offer.



Is there some reason to think that she should not serve as a touchstone for this style? Especially here in the US where it is not so easy to just walk up to one of the Milongueros from back in the day at your local Milonga??

NT

Please do not name professionals by first and last name and then ask questions like this on the open boards. Your question is not rhetorical, regardless of your intentions.

[Heather2007]

From post-slavery Africa to Charlie Parker to Bob Marley to UB40 to Eminem. All quite different artists but all performing styles that has its roots in Africa - BUT - they have their own style and neither sounding like the other.

My question: Does anybody here have their own style. I fully appreciate it is necessary to get to grips with the fundamentals with heaps of copying of the past and present greats but after a couple of years and confidence - this is where I think your "own" should be creeping your dance. Note: it's not an imperative..but it can happen, either consciously or sub-consciously. If you're aware of it, what would you call it?

You've heard me state before that my dancing has been described as ugly or weird or different (but mainly ugly :rolleyes::p) and also it has been stated many times that "I've obviously done other dancing" in the way I stand, hold myself, whatever.. So somewhere between an UgDuck and BelleSwan. My tango is the Swanduck Tango. And yours?

[newbie]

[FONT=Verdana]"Susana Miller is one of the most prominent teachers, choreographers, and dancers of the old milonguero style of tango

Lol

She may have been the first on the market, that's all.

Her credentials are, she's been Tete's assistant. How impressive. Why not directly take classes with Tete, then? He's touring abroad. I think I attended three workshops with him so far. And I'm not an adept of this style, so I suppose that for someone who does like this style it is possible to attend a lot more workshops with him.

[tangonuevo]

Lol

She may have been the first on the market, that's all.

Her credentials are, she's been Tete's assistant. How impressive. Why not directly take classes with Tete, then? ...
I have. But I find that my efforts to learn to be able to make my dance feel like a Porteno's are most rewarded when I dance, accept feedback, study and learn from the women who have partnered with the Portenos. The men know what they are doing, the women know how it feels. The "what" can be observed and explained. The "how it feels" can only be felt, and can only be taught through dancing with women who know.

Just MHO.

And to respond to Me, I have not even mentioned my primary instructors on this forum, am hardly fixated on this one person, and haven't danced with her for more than a few tandas. I only selected her as a well known, non-controversial instructor who I think is well informed in this style. Oh well.


TN

[Ampster]

My question: Does anybody here have their own style. I fully appreciate it is necessary to get to grips with the fundamentals with heaps of copying of the past and present greats but after a couple of years and confidence - this is where I think your "own" should be creeping your dance. Note: it's not an imperative..but it can happen, either consciously or sub-consciously. If you're aware of it, what would you call it?


Why, surely. "Villa Ampster!" :banana:
:uplaugh: Just kidding. My style is just an evolution of what I've learned applied to my dance and my partner. Just as I pointed out in an older thread I had started: "Enhance your dance... Make it your own" (http://dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=29218)

[Angel HI]

Not to belabor a point, but, to clear the air....
If you haven't had a chance to dance with Susana Miller, I suggest that you look for one.
I have, and have had her teach in my studio.

"Susana Miller is one of the most prominent teachers, choreographers, and dancers of the old milonguero style of tango (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tango_%28dance%29). She introduced term Milonguero Style in the mid- '90s.
Susana is great. But, she is not the only one.
And, this is the point that Me and others are making. She is but 'one' of the good ones out there, and, though I think wonderfully of her, is not the only one to define "Milonguero".

She did create the name, but do we really understand why? At a time when the US really knew nothing of how they danced in BsAs, she was simply stating that [her style] was the way that [those whom attended the milongas in BsAs] danced. They are called milongueros; so, she called her dance the milonguero style. It was not intended to become a brand name. Great for her that it has, but let's not make it/her some sort of biblical equivocation.

You should try dancing with either Muma (http://www.bendtango.com/muma/) (danced with her) who was once the long time partner of the late Ricardo Vidort, AND, Alicia Pons (http://www.aliciapons.com.ar/home-ingles.htm) both true milongueras, and both beatiful to dance with.

IMHO, Muma (http://www.bendtango.com/muma/) is the one with the best connection of the three.

Agreed!

And to respond to Me, I have not even mentioned my primary instructors on this forum, am hardly fixated on this one person,...
It did seem that way. No worries...no harm.

[Angel HI]

Does anybody here have their own style. If you're aware of it, what would you call it?

Mine?

WTH-onguero.

[newbie]

learn from the women who have partnered with the Portenos.

It's Plato's cave then. You're learning the real life by looking at shadows.

[newbie]

Does anybody here have their own style. If you're aware of it, what would you call it?


Open close.

[Me]

Mine?

WTH-onguero.

That's pretty funny. Earlier I almost replied, "Mine is Villa WTH."

[Tango-ne]

It's Plato's cave then. You're learning the real life by looking at shadows.

If you follow this line of thought, then having come out of Plato's Cave and watched the actual masters, do you not return to the cave with "corrupted eyes"? And those who are still trapped in the cave would not understand what you have seen, no matter how you tried to communicate it. Ha! Love it. This DF is a great place to pick up choice ideas! ne?

[opendoor]

.. do you not return to the cave with "corrupted eyes" .. ?..

.. does it mean, you would never dance with an ordinary guy, again then ?

[Zoopsia59]

That's pretty funny. Earlier I almost replied, "Mine is Villa WTH."

Ok.. obviously I have too much classical education and not enough modern one. I immediately understood the reference to the Parable of the Cave, but had to think about WTH.

[Zoopsia59]

If you follow this line of thought, then having come out of Plato's Cave and watched the actual masters, do you not return to the cave with "corrupted eyes"? And those who are still trapped in the cave would not understand what you have seen, no matter how you tried to communicate it. Ha! Love it. This DF is a great place to pick up choice ideas! ne?

Uh.. oh, I think we're going to need a whole new thread for "Plato's Tango"

or should we just call it Cave Tango or the Tango Cave or Pluto's Parable of the Tango? (with help from Minnie as a follower)

My own style is "damnmybuttsstickingoutagain Tango" although I occasionally use the "whoopsItotallylostmybalancethere" style which is renown for the "fallingbackwardsagainbecauseIarchedmyback" move.

By the way, it takes a long time to master the "fallingbackwardsagain" move in forward ochos.

But I'll get there... I'm very determined.

[Peaches]

I was thinking about "my style" tonight (there was a distinct lack of creative leaders--luckily, my brain wasn't getting in the way of following, but I could have followed with my eyes closed and one hand tied behind my back, so to speak).

I'm debating between "whole body tango," and "knees-hips-and-[butt] tango." I can't decide if this is a good thing or a bad thing, but I rather like it, so perhaps it's immaterial. Then again, I don't know if my partner's like it, so perhaps I should come to a decision in re: goodness/badness.

[Tango-ne]

...Then again, I don't know if my partner's like it, so perhaps I should come to a decision in re: goodness/badness.

Wow, that's an interesting point that never occured to me! That a woman is wondering whether or not I like her "style". Being so new to this tango, and having just started to get a little navel gazing (my own!) going on, I had just focused in on me, me, me. As in what does tango mean to me? how do I want to express myself? am I communicating loud enough? is this conversation pleasurable to my partner? In other words, I see all followers as subjects enduring my stumbling around, and I never considered the thoughts that might be runnng through their heads! So, I am thankful that you have brought up the fact that the followers are also thinking about their style, and the reason that comment hit home is that, right now, I'm seeing tango in the light of a conversation between two people and as such, I should be listening to what the follower is saying through her dance....as in she asks "do you like when I ocho thus?" (by squeezing my lead hand so that I don't take her out of the ocho too quickly) and I reply "it's wonderful" (by leading her into the ocho again, or throwing it in when I feel that the music and her wishes desire it again.) In that way, wouldn't that give the follower the positive reinforcement that the leader likes your style? Plus, as a conversation, tango happens between people who can have two different styles...just like in real life conversation, there are people who's speech mannerisms I don't care for, but that doesn't necessarily get in the way of a pleasant chat!

[Angel HI]

By the way, it takes a long time to master the "fallingbackwardsagain" move in forward ochos. But I'll get there... I'm very determined.

Very funny, Zoops. :D


Wow, that's an interesting point that never occured to me! That a woman is wondering whether or not I like her "style".
This is something that I always do. When at a milonga, before I ask a lady to dance, I have watched her; not to see what she knows, but what she likes. Then I try to give her a pleasurable experience based on such. What I like will come through within the "conversation".

[Tango-ne]

This is something that I always do. When at a milonga, before I ask a lady to dance, I have watched her; not to see what she knows, but what she likes. Then I try to give her a pleasurable experience based on such. What I like will come through within the "conversation".

This DF is an amazing resource to help me think through what tango means to me. Of course it makes sense that in order to engage in the tango conversation it helps to watch how the women on the dance floor have particular likes and dislikes and to remember what works on which partners!

This is SO helpful because when I danced with my sweetie, sometimes the partnership was really rough, I now realize that I had been pushing her into conversational phrases that she doesn't like, or I was pushing her too quickly for her to respond back! I was blind, but now I see! Thanks! (and there I was thinking that I was leading properly and she wasn't following! Duh!)