Guys, where do you place your right hand on her...?

[salsachinita]

This has probably been covered in one of the more formal "Proper Dance Position" type of threads, but here it goes:

I was dancing with one of the relative newbies last night. The focus at that moment was helping him relating movements to a descarga. I was very uncomfortable with the way I was being held, and realised he had his right hand over my shoulder blades, above my bra line. So I asked him to put his hand on the small of my back. We felt better right away.

Funny enough, I had never thought about this issue, ever. Until this time :? (funny how we take these things for granted, huh?)

Later he told me that he'd been taught to place his right hand there, by one of the respected instructors. I got curious so I went around the club asking my regular social partners to show me their hand placement.

Results...? All of the Latinos put it on small of the back, while the formally trianed ones tend to go higher, on (NOT above) my bra line.

Then this guy from a show group explained. The higher position is better for giving leads & control, through the centre of follower. While it feels right with some space between the two partners, it feels wrong when the two are dancing very closed together (as we must in a crowded club). That was when the guys place their right hand on the small of the follower's back :!:

Different horses for different courses :wink: !

What's your experience on this....?

[Canadian Guy]

In a close hold I have also been instructed to hold the woman by her left shoulder blade with leader's right hand. There was no instruction about it being above or below the bra line :oops:

I think it comes from ballroom, in ballroom the dance frame is everything. You want a wide dance frame for better leading. When you have your hand on the small of the woman's back, it narrows the leader's dance frame. It makes it harder for the follower to feel the lead.

Just my 2 cents.

[delamusica]

but in latin - the ballroomized version, i guess you could say - the hold is narrow and you NEVER put your hand on the small of the lady's back . . . it makes it so hard to lead! but i can see how it might feel better to put it down there if you were somewhere crowded dancing really close together - i'll have to pay attention to the guys next time i go out and report back!

[Sagitta]

It depends on the dance partners. For me it changes if a person whom I am dancing with is short / tall / skinny / well endowed / no sense of rhythm.... nn addition to the environment and the constraint of my small arms.

[Chris Stratton]

I think that if the man's wrist is going to connect firmly under the lady's arm, then one of two things must happen to use up arm length:

Dance apart, with rounded arms - this is contemporary latin dancing

OR

Dance with the centers in contact, but the elbows out (intermediate quality modern ballroom) or the tops shaped away from each other (advanced modern ballroom).

Dance styles with the arm wrapped further around/lower tend to be have more introspective and close frames, and may include what ballroom folk would consider a hunched posture. Examples would be argentine tango, and old style ballroom, as often depicted in art (arm around lady's waist).

Modern ballroom tango is a bit wierd, in that the hand is further around and lower, but this is still a "big" frame, just with the lady moved more towards the crook of the man's right elbow.

So, basically, if you don't want or need to hog attention and floorsapce, then it's probably best to have the hand lower and further around, provided you can connect sufficiently that way.

[brujo]

I think it has to do with the nature of LA/NY vs. Casino as well. LA/NY requires the woman to be a stronger solo dancer where Casino doesn't.

I had it explained to me in two ways. Connection and control. The way you put your hands horizontally affects the amount of trust you will get from the follow. If my hands are on the shoulder blades or love handle area, the follower cannot feel confident that I will be able to hold her if she leans back because my hand will slip away. But if it is right above the spine, ( or below the armpit, at the other side of the spine ), she can feel secure whenever she leans back because my whole arm is there to support her. So the closer to the spine, the more connection you get.

By putting the hand below your bra line, I have total control of your spine, by moving my hand, I can require your entire body to move with it. This might be good in Casino, but not as good in NY/LA, where there is a higher requirement for stronger solo dancing. But it has too much of the 'go here, now!' idea that many LA dancers frown upon.

My hand is usually on top of the bra line when dancing with dancers of my level, and will only move them down to the back when I am trying a fancier spinning move, or when trying to lead an around the world like move with a beginner.

[salsachinita]

Ok, Brujo. I'd like to make a little summary of what you said, hope I got it right.

More control, therefore less trust = ON bra line/OVER shoulder blade = Preferred by Cuban Casino

Less control, therefore more trust = Near spine (ie. ON the small of her back) = Preferred by LA/NY

Did I get that right....? Please correct me if I understood it wrongly (I was slightly confused :oops: ).

Oh, one of my Latino friends who places his right hands lower (on the small of my back) said that the higher position is too "dominating" :shock: (does that mean the guy has MORE control?).

Comments, anyone?

[pelao]

I put my hand on the back or hips. The problem with the shoulder thing is that it seems a little too forceful. You gotta be sensual with the lady. You wanna bring her closer, not push her away. So, when you put your hand around the small of her back, its as if your hugging her towards you. When you put your hand on her shoulder, its too easy to push her away.

[Vince A]

I think it depends on the dance and the size of the follower . . .

My previous Pro taught me . . for straight up, hardcore-framed dances like Waltz, that the heel of my palm butts up against the aft portion of her lats and over her shoulder blades - above the bra - with hand completely closed (all five fingers touching each other) and hand slightly pointing down.

This hand-hold allows the follower to push back slightly against the hand in order to fill up the compression stroke . . .

I have learned to use the same hand hold in any dance that has me placing my hand on the followers' back . . . especially when the hand is closed and fingers are pointing down!

I don't use this too often in WCS, ECS, Latin dances, as there is no time or the hand is not there long enough . . . besides, thaose dances are fun dances, who cares where the hands are??? Well, other than you ladies of course :wink:

[salsachinita]

I put my hand on the back or hips. The problem with the shoulder thing is that it seems a little too forceful. You gotta be sensual with the lady. You wanna bring her closer, not push her away. So, when you put your hand around the small of her back, its as if your hugging her towards you. When you put your hand on her shoulder, its too easy to push her away.

My thoughts exactly. I guess the reason why I had never noticed the shoulder blade thing was because I've been dancing with instructors or seasoned salseros who didn't make me feel uncomfortable to notice any difference.

[Sagitta]

For certain moves, if you have your hand too low on your partner's back your partner may go back when you don't want her/him to, which could injure her/him. A higher hold on the back supports your partner and prevents this.

[borikensalsero]

NY City Style, well, as it was taught to me is, shoulder blade high, above bra line. That comes from ballroom.


The true latin way to hold a woman has always been by the waist. Anything that isn't the waist you can pretty much bet isn't of latin origin.

I use both holds depending on what move I am going to do, and what look I want to achieve.

If I am going for a sexier "embrace" look, I will bring my hand down to the girls waist, if I want to look sexy yet have control of her upper body, I will use the shoulder blade hold with my right, yet lower my left to her hip, as if we were hugging.

I feel a lot more comfortable holding the girl by the shoulder blade, as I feel that I have more control given the moves I do.

If the girl has a sexy feel and is smooth, I tend to lower my hand to her waist. It really all depends, some moves feel better with hand at waist others with hand at shoulder. However, if dance floor is crowded, I do the waist hold.

[salsachinita]

Thankyou for confirming, Boriken :notworth: !

I was hoping you'd help me out on this one :D !

[salsachinita]

SD, what's your take on this :? .......?

[borikensalsero]

Thankyou for confirming, Boriken :notworth: !

I was hoping you'd help me out on this one :D !

My pleasure salsachinita.

[SDsalsaguy]

SD, what's your take on this :? .......?
Have to *run* to work now, I'll try to respond when I get home this evening.

[salsachinita]

SD, what's your take on this :? .......?
Have to *run* to work now, I'll try to respond when I get home this evening.

Thanks, SD!

That's perfect for me. I'm off to bed now. Time zone is too much fun :P !

[salsachinita]

Oh, entertainment break: while I was 'researching' for this topic, quite a few guys got real cheeky & swore by a somewhat not-so-leadable placement :oops: :roll: .........

[Danish Guy]

I’ll use the shoulder blade/bra line hold to.
Mostly during the NY/nightclub style.

During Cuban, or some casino moves, I’ll sometimes go lover.

When I started on salsa, some girls told me I locked the hip motion,
if I got under the shoulder blade.

[Vince A]

When I started on salsa, some girls told me I locked the hip motion, if I got under the shoulder blade.
I've also heard that a few times . . . and the teacher that I take lesson from said, "although it may look good like the real dancers do, the hand on the back is correct."

My questions is, "What the hell is (are) the "real dancers?"

[Vince A]

. . . and . . . from our own Photo Album . . .

http://www.dance-forums.com/album/showphoto.php?photo=142&password=&sort=1&cat=502&page=4

[Sagitta]

Oh, entertainment break: while I was 'researching' for this topic, quite a few guys got real cheeky & swore by a somewhat not-so-leadable placement :oops: :roll: .........

Really? :o I wonder what naive Sagitta is missing!!

[Vince A]

. . . and look where this guy . . . whoever he is . . . puts "his" hands!

http://www.dance-forums.com/album/showphoto.php?photo=34&password=&sort=1&cat=502&page=5

. . . and this one . . .

http://www.dance-forums.com/album/showphoto.php?photo=176&password=&sort=1&cat=500&page=3

. . . and this one . . .

http://www.dance-forums.com/album/showphoto.php?photo=47&password=&sort=1&cat=500&page=1

My point??? If you plan on staying in just one position all the time, like the start poition, hand position matters, if not . . . just DANCE!

[borikensalsero]

. . . and look where this guy . . . whoever he is . . . puts "his" hands!

http://www.dance-forums.com/album/showphoto.php?photo=34&password=&sort=1&cat=502&page=5

What was that guy thinking!!! :shock: :tongue: lol

[Sagitta]

A massage quickie on the dance floor?

[Vince A]

Well . . . he IS that good! And at dancing too!

[SDsalsaguy]

SD, what's your take on this :? .......?
Have to *run* to work now, I'll try to respond when I get home this evening.

Thanks, SD!

That's perfect for me. I'm off to bed now. Time zone is too much fun :P !
OK, finally getting around to this one... (1:45am here at the moment)

Personally, when in closed position, I prefer the shoulder blade. As already mentioned this lets me lead through my partners center. Followers, try pretending you felt pressure in your lower back pulling you to step forward. Now try pretending you feel pressure on your shoulder blade pulling you to step forward.

I actually don't use closed position all that much, except perhaps with beginers, but as I transition in and out of it the higher hand position just seems to provide me with a lot more control of our frames, distances, and positioning.

[SDsalsaguy]

Boriken, Sagitta, and Vince... :tongue:

[salsachinita]

Personally, when in closed position, I prefer the shoulder blade.......
I actually don't use closed position all that much, except perhaps with beginers, but as I transition in and out of it the higher hand position just seems to provide me with a lot more control of our frames, distances, and positioning.

Thanks, SD. What you said is in-line with all of the more 'formally trained' leads who seem to lead somewhat 'lighter', with more control.

The guys who choose to have the lower hand positions tend to be less concern with techniques, can lead relatively 'heavier', and their moves more 'momentum based'.

:idea: The preferred placement of a leader's right hand is yet another clue to the follower :idea: ! With this, I can adjust my frame & centre of gravity to suit the styles required :D .

Thanks to all you guys. What do you think of my summary...? Agree/disagree? Comments...?

*Disclaimer: The above info is drawn from my personal experienced/observasion only. There is no suggestion which of the two hand positions is right/wrong, and by no means indicate the leading/dancing skills of the guys. :wink: . Just thought I'd cover all bases*

[pelao]

I personally prefer puttin my right hand on her face; that way she doesn't get confused where i'm trying to shove her, and she won't gimme no lip!! :lol:

[Sabor]

personally, there's no particular way i place my right hand on the lady in salsa.. it depends on what i want to do in co-ordination with how good she follows..

there are dances that i would only have my hand in contact with her shoulders and/or hands and/or waist and/or neck only.. without even going near her back.. a beautiful thing about salsa is that it is very variant and u dont need to stick to certain technicalities so long as u execute while feeling good and smooth as a couple.. again i would believe that this is a case of how its done rather than what is done.. if u can get away with it , then place the hands in your pockets even far as i'm concerned :wink:

[borikensalsero]

I personally prefer puttin my right hand on her face; that way she doesn't get confused where i'm trying to shove her, and she won't gimme no lip!! :lol:

Now why didn't I think of that????

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

Well I can place my hand anywhere she wants. :wink:

The instructors at my studio have always advised us to place our hand on the lady´s shoulder blade slightly above the bra line. This is what I do and quite honestly it feels confortable (to me at least).

[delamusica]

I once danced with a guy who took both of my hands and put them on top of his head . . . seriously. He started spinning around under them (a feat, since he was more than a foot taller than me!), leaving me essentially rubbing the top of his head with no idea what to do . . .

For the record, guys - putting the lady's hands on the top of your head is NOT an effective leading or styling strategy. Just in case you were thinking about it. :wink:

[Sagitta]

Well I can place my hand anywhere she wants. :wink:

Me too. :)

I normally place my hand shoulderblade area, and a couple people have commented on the good connection they feel with me. As salsacinita said, it does allow for a certain sharpness in moves through using momentum, such as the CBL.

[Vince A]

Well I can place my hand anywhere she wants. :wink:

Me too. :)

I normally place my hand shoulderblade area, and a couple people have commented on the good connection they feel with me. As salsacinita said, it does allow for a certain sharpness in moves through using momentum, such as the CBL.
I agree . . . if the follower is not "filling up" your hand with her rounding out of her back . . . she is not fully compressed just before the acceleration "into" the move . . .

This tells you, the leader . . to "go" without saying any words . . . it's basic lead and follow technique!

[Sarah]

Personally, when in closed position, I prefer the shoulder blade. As already mentioned this lets me lead through my partners center. Followers, try pretending you felt pressure in your lower back pulling you to step forward. Now try pretending you feel pressure on your shoulder blade pulling you to step forward.


As a follower, I have to say that I prefer to be lead from the shoulderblade, although I am aware that this may just be because that is the way I first learned.

Then again, I reckon you can consider your follower to be two rigid horizontal structures (the shoulder-girdle+ribcage and the pelvis) connected by a relatively short flexible elastic column (abs and back muscles, around the waist.)
Now if you start to excecute a CBL for example, you can bring her shoulders round smoothly (and just that tiny bit early), while she stores the torque so produced in her abs and back, until she takes her weight off her left foot, and her hips can use the stored twist to >snap< round.

Leading from the waist, it seems to me that you can't take the same mechanical advantage, and are limited to slower turns and translational style moves. Also, because you are attempting to lead from a bendy bit, some of the energy of the lead is lost before it even starts to affect where the follower is putting her feet.
Leading from the pelvis is also possible, but should probably only be attempted with people you know well. :mrgreen:

Ok, you can now go back to considering your follower to be the sexiest person you laid eyes on, if you prefer ;)

Cheers
Sarah

[SDsalsaguy]

Trust an engineer to actually explain what I was trying to get at... :oops: :lol:

[Sarah]

Trust an engineer to actually explain what I was trying to get at... :oops: :lol:

Physicist, but we think similarly.

Cheers
Sarah

[SDsalsaguy]

Ah yes, my bad... but it certainly sounded like engineering-speak to me! :lol:

[Haz]

Trust an engineer to actually explain what I was trying to get at... :oops: :lol:

Physicist, but we think similarly.

Cheers
Sarah

All the physicists (I know a few) wouldn't say that in a million years :tongue:

[Sarah]

Physicist, but we think similarly.

Cheers
Sarah

All the physicists (I know a few) wouldn't say that in a million years :tongue:[/quote]

Compared to say political science students - physicists and engineers are practically identical.

Cheers
Sarah

[jon]

Physicist, but we think similarly.
All the physicists (I know a few) wouldn't say that in a million years :tongue:

All the physicists I know, for all practical purposes, are engineers with fancy titles - like my good friend at SLAC who spends most of his time designing accelerator electronics, not writing fancy equations on chalkboards.

[Haz]

Physicist, but we think similarly.
All the physicists (I know a few) wouldn't say that in a million years :tongue:

All the physicists I know, for all practical purposes, are engineers with fancy titles - like my good friend at SLAC who spends most of his time designing accelerator electronics, not writing fancy equations on chalkboards.

Oh definitely...all the ones I know are practically engineers but don't want to be considered that. I dated an engineering physicist last year but she would always get right mad when she was classified in the same group as the mechanical engineers, etc.

To get back on topic (at least to some extent...topic being salsa :roll: ) does anyone else out there view salsa mathematically? I don't mean calculating the centrifugal force needed to spin your gal 3 times, but I know that I need to break down every move I see into its steps (and beats to each eight note) and figure out how it works before getting it right. Once doing that, I can forget about the technical aspect of it and just dance the thing with whatever other variation my body memory has (body memory being the moves I can do without thinking about).

I've always tried finding parallels with the music and math I did (played music for most of my life and currently a comp sci major), and taking it to dancing just seems natural. Anyone else in the same boat?

[tj]

To get back on topic (at least to some extent...topic being salsa :roll: ) does anyone else out there view salsa mathematically? I don't mean calculating the centrifugal force needed to spin your gal 3 times, but I know that I need to break down every move I see into its steps (and beats to each eight note) and figure out how it works before getting it right. Once doing that, I can forget about the technical aspect of it and just dance the thing with whatever other variation my body memory has (body memory being the moves I can do without thinking about).

Most definitely! When I see something complex, I'm likely to break it down into the parts that I already know. Or if an instructor is teaching something with "funky" timing, I'm likely to do it in a more familiar way first (to make sure I get the other components correctly), then try it to the different timing. (That being said, there are instructors out there who aren't quite as precise or particular with their timing, and it can be hard to take lessons from them).


I've always tried finding parallels with the music and math I did (played music for most of my life and currently a comp sci major), and taking it to dancing just seems natural. Anyone else in the same boat?
There are tons of techno-geeks (btw, you can't spell geek w/o EE!) in salsa. For example here in Seattle... can you say, Microsoft! Yikes, there are a ton of salseros who work there - one or two ladies, but probably a couple dozen guys.

[jon]

I've always tried finding parallels with the music and math I did (played music for most of my life and currently a comp sci major), and taking it to dancing just seems natural. Anyone else in the same boat?

Oh, to some extent. When I started ballroom dancing I probably enjoyed it because it was very structured, which appeals to the engineering mentality. But over time I value dancing because I've become able to stop analyzing so much, and listen and feel more instead. Perhaps that corresponded to my shift in interest beyond ballroom towards partner dance forms that are not so rigidly defined, and which place a greater emphasis and value on good music.

Club square dancing, in particular, is very amenable to application of group theory.

[salsachinita]

Leading from the waist, it seems to me that you can't take the same mechanical advantage, and are limited to slower turns and translational style moves. Also, because you are attempting to lead from a bendy bit, some of the energy of the lead is lost before it even starts to affect where the follower is putting her feet.


:idea: Maybe that's why my turns tend to be slow :idea: ........I've also been told about some leads being 'lost' on me, as I 'absorbed' the energy :shock: .

:oops: the more I learn, the more things I realised I need to keep an eye on :oops:

[Sarah]

Physicist, but we think similarly.
All the physicists (I know a few) wouldn't say that in a million years :tongue:

All the physicists I know, for all practical purposes, are engineers with fancy titles - like my good friend at SLAC who spends most of his time designing accelerator electronics, not writing fancy equations on chalkboards.

Oh definitely...all the ones I know are practically engineers but don't want to be considered that. I dated an engineering physicist last year but she would always get right mad when she was classified in the same group as the mechanical engineers, etc.
You're mistaking the tools (both mental and physical) for the process - both carpenters and surgeons use saws, but they're hardly doing the same thing.

To get back on topic (at least to some extent...topic being salsa :roll: ) does anyone else out there view salsa mathematically? I don't mean calculating the centrifugal force needed to spin your gal 3 times, but I know that I need to break down every move I see into its steps (and beats to each eight note) and figure out how it works before getting it right. Once doing that, I can forget about the technical aspect of it and just dance the thing with whatever other variation my body memory has (body memory being the moves I can do without thinking about).
No, my timing is pretty much on automatic pilot now, but I do tend to think of the lead/follow relationship in terms of signal-to-noise ratio, gain, and hysteresis.

Cheers
Sarah

[tj]

think of the lead/follow relationship in terms of signal-to-noise ratio, gain, and hysteresis.


Lol - you left out phase change, correlation, standard deviation, and quantization error!

[jon]

Oh definitely...all the ones I know are practically engineers but don't want to be considered that. I dated an engineering physicist last year but she would always get right mad when she was classified in the same group as the mechanical engineers, etc.
You're mistaking the tools (both mental and physical) for the process - both carpenters and surgeons use saws, but they're hardly doing the same thing.


No, we're not mistaking them. To return to the previous example (and it's just an example close to hand), the friend I mentioned is a Ph.D. physicist, but voluntarily describes himself as "really an engineer". Does he understand the physics being researched there? Well, to a certain extent, as needed for his job. Does he work on stuff that contributes to fundamental research? Sure. Does he get his name on research papers? Yep. Is he doing fundamental research? No way. And neither are most of the other names on those massively co-authored papers that appear in Phys. Rev. D and the like. The papers he really authors are more like this (http://accelconf.web.cern.ch/AccelConf/p01/PAPERS/TPAH012.PDF).

[salsachinita]

:roll: it seems this thread is well & truly hijacked by a bunch of dancing science geeks :roll: ......


:P :lol:

[Haz]

:roll: it seems this thread is well & truly hijacked by a bunch of dancing science geeks :roll: ......


:P :lol:

You got it :wink: :twisted: . This thread is just the first step. Soon us dancing science geeks will rule the world from behind our laptops blaring Willie Rosario on every radio frequency. *humz innocently*

[borikensalsero]

:roll: it seems this thread is well & truly hijacked by a bunch of dancing science geeks :roll: ......


:P :lol:

You got it :wink: :twisted: . This thread is just the first step. Soon us dancing science geeks will rule the world from behind our laptops blaring Willie Rosario on every radio frequency. *humz innocently*


Look at that... Haz plays the Sax, finds a group that is known for that and he is an instant fan of Willie Colon. Boy, what a sweet sounds comes of this guys band!! Ahhhhhh... The master of rhythm as they call him....

[Haz]

:roll: it seems this thread is well & truly hijacked by a bunch of dancing science geeks :roll: ......


:P :lol:

You got it :wink: :twisted: . This thread is just the first step. Soon us dancing science geeks will rule the world from behind our laptops blaring Willie Rosario on every radio frequency. *humz innocently*


Look at that... Haz plays the Sax, finds a group that is known for that and he is an instant fan of Willie Colon. Boy, what a sweet sounds comes of this guys band!! Ahhhhhh... The master of rhythm as they call him....

Willie Rosario is the Bari-Blowing Salsa-Sax Master as far as I'm concerned...As for Willie Colon...that guy can wail too. Love the brassy low bone sounds that guy spits out. (Idilio is the song playing atm :wink: ).

[borikensalsero]

:roll: it seems this thread is well & truly hijacked by a bunch of dancing science geeks :roll: ......


:P :lol:

You got it :wink: :twisted: . This thread is just the first step. Soon us dancing science geeks will rule the world from behind our laptops blaring Willie Rosario on every radio frequency. *humz innocently*


Look at that... Haz plays the Sax, finds a group that is known for that and he is an instant fan of Willie Colon. Boy, what a sweet sounds comes of this guys band!! Ahhhhhh... The master of rhythm as they call him....

Willie Rosario is the Bari-Blowing Salsa-Sax Master as far as I'm concerned...As for Willie Colon...that guy can wail too. Love the brassy low bone sounds that guy spits out. (Idilio is the song playing atm :wink: ).

Idilio, one of my old time favs!!! Love it, absolutely love it.

The trombone sound was introduced to salsa by Eddie Palmieri in the 60s when salsa was at its experimantal stages. It later on bacame one of the sounds that Salsa bands had to have to be considered the "salsoso" sound. Willie Colon, might have been nothing but a young punk (15 or 17 don't really remember) with limted skills when he released his first album (El Malo), but he never fell short to let us know that he was going to be for real with the trombone. Love it!

The sax, if I recall correclty, was added to Salsa by Tipica 73 sometime after their frist split, I think '76. Although the Sax had been used before in the jamm sessions of the 60s and by the big band era of the 50s, it was never a sound known in the golden era of salsa (early 70s), or used in salsa at all, after that salsa bands incorporated them to their brass sections.