Teaching social versus competition

[D-spot]

For the record I am an accomplished social dancer and have had relatively limited competitive experience (17 comps I think) at various levels (mainly collegiate).

I am teaching one lady who has several other instructors and she is getting a little confused. One instructor each for standard and latin and myself for social (I dance with her in the clubs). She is getting confused. The oher two instructors are ex-competitors (professional or championship) and have their Associates.

I feel that there are distinct diffences in what we teach. My focus is on L/F for social purposes, theirs is on doing each move technically correct.

I want the best for my student even if it means not instructing her. She does not want to compete or do showcases, only to dance socially (and look good doing it)

Appreciate a discussion on any relevant points as it will help me refine what I am thinking, what issues to address and what to advise her to do.
For example, I teach a generic lead/follow that works in just about every situation rather than a competitive lead/follow that makes the move look its best but requires a higher degree of pattern recognition for social.
Advice?
Thanks in advance.
D-spot

[Chris Stratton]

Hmm, I think I'm going to have to argue that outside of a few embellishments like contemporary ideas of topline, sound technique, including lead & follow, is simply sound technique,

Could you give some examples of how your idea of social lead&follow differes from your impressions of the competitive version?

Your mention of pattern recognition is interesting too. Many competitors don't really lead things, and rely largely on pattern recognition. However those that do try to really lead will at least claim that they only need a follower who pays attention, and has reflexes tuned for characteristic dance actions, not entire figures committed to memory.

Social dancers are often willing (or more than) to manhandle the lady into doing what they want her to, wheras many competitors are unwilling to do anything outside the bounds of what they consider a good looking frame. For example, a competition leader will not use the left hand to push the lady to promenade - if he moves it at all, it is simply a reposition in response to a change in the lady's position. The actual promenade lead comes more from the core of the body, is too complicated to describe in words alone, and requires an attentive follower to perceive. (Someone once proposed simply "breathe into your left lung")

[SDsalsaguy]

(Someone once proposed simply "breathe into your left lung")
I like that a lot! Although not a complete/technical description it does convey the feel and the nuancing (vs. overt physicality) of a good lead into promenade.

[bordertangoman]

interesting one..

in Argentine Tango one can sometimes spot the ballroom dancers because their moves are crisper and more punctuated and to dance with their moves are sharper but with less connection

[D-spot]

Could you give some examples of how your idea of social lead&follow differes from your impressions of the competitive version?


For example, the New Yorker (IS), or Crossover (AS).
Competitive lead is to give a very sharp movement. Usually lead by applying a sideways pressure to the followers hand. NO forward back pressure. The follower pushes sideways back into the leaders hand. This creates tension within the body which results in a sharper action (more explosive, greater acceleration into the move) than a forward back pressure (described below). The sharper action is typically the one that is used in competitions. The follower needs to recognise the change of the lead from one direction (forward and back) to sideways and hence not maintain the pressure directly towards the leader.

I consider a good social lead/follow to obviate the necessity for pattern recognition as much as possible. Taking that into account the social lead/follow must therefore differ from the competitive lead/follow as that requires pattern recognition. Having seen national latin champs (from europe) not want to demo an unprepared dance, this shows some indication that their lead/follow was not the same as a prepared dance.

I use and teach a social lead that requires pressure directly between the leader and follower. Maintaining this pressure for a move such as the New Yorker means that a simple turning action of the body also causes the follower to turn. The sharper the turning action the faster the move, although the same level of acceleration is not produced making the move less sharp. The man can also dictate the styling as it is dependent upon the degree of turn (think bronze level where people are usually in line with each other versus higher levels where they overturn forming 90 degree angle between them.
There is no moment where the follower has to recognise the move for them to respond appropriately.

It can be difficult to differentiate between pattern recognition and pure lead/follow.
D-spot
(social dancer, ex-competitor)

[Chris Stratton]

For example, the New Yorker (IS), or Crossover (AS).
Competitive lead is to give a very sharp movement. Usually lead by applying a sideways pressure to the followers hand. NO forward back pressure.

I'm not much of a latin dancer, but this doesn't seem to describe how I've been encouraged to think of that figure for either social or competition purposes.

My main objection is that you talk about the lead occuring in the hand - wheras I'd argue it is really a body action transmitted through the hand. One thing this approach clarifies is that while the action of a NYer is sharp, it does not come in isolation - rather it is set up by first reaching a position from which it is one of a few phsyically sensible choices for what to do next - you have to deliver the lead at a point in time when the follower's body is poised to respond to it.

For example, I don't think one would go directly from open basics into a NYer - rather the leader would first step to side on his right foot. From there he could either lead something like a closed basic, or lead a pivoting action and step into a NYer.

I would agree that one could make the argument that a competitive lead looks sharper, wheras a social one may be visually foreshadowed much of a measure beforehand, but I think of this more as a gradual process of 'tuning up' the connection of the partnership rather than as different way of doing things.

[msc]

My main objection is that you talk about the lead occuring in the hand - wheras I'd argue it is really a body action transmitted through the hand.

I think I might agree, at least at a high/competitive level. There's a hip action, a rib action, a head action, and that off arm has a role as well. Not to mention the usual extreme pressure into the floor through the balls of the feet, and strong connection of the arms to the back. All of that combined is the "lead," for one of the most basic of Latin moves.


Of course, socially, it's just get the follow turned at whatever speed she can handle without putting undue stress on her arm.

[Chris Stratton]

Perhaps I should clairfy - you can lead the lady with you hand, or you can lead with your body and transmit that through your arm and hand. Both can work if the leader knows what he is doing.

But either way, you are trying to lead her body, not her hand.

The easiest way to keep the necessary body mechanics in mind is for the guy to lead with his body at the beginner stages. Later as an intermediate there may be situations in which he needs to use his hand more independently, but hopefully by then he will be more aware of the need to encourage the lady into a position from which she has a chance of being able to do what he is trying to lead.

[Vince A]

Thanks Chris . . . this reiterates a point that I asked about several months ago:
http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1977

Although I do lead with my center, there are times when I do or have to lead with an arm or two, and although I do this from time-to-time or with certain patterns, I am looking at her body (center) and not leading her arm.

Make sense???

[tsb]

i just used part of this in a response in another thread but it seems relevant here:

very few competitive (ballroom) dancers can dance well with a lot of people (not jack & jill, but that's primarily club & not ballroom dancing anyway). but then that's usually not one of their goals; what they learn is a lot more right way/wrong way - which works because they're dancing with only a few select partners who are also dancing to those standards - and being judged within those standards. (i submit that there is no right way/wrong way in social setting as long as both partners are enjoying themselves.)

lead/follow is communication. for those who compete and dance to a specific choreography or syllabus, the vocabulary is very specific and detailed, and the few people that competitors people dance with regularly are expected to be fluent with that vocabulary. this is an unrealistic expectation in a social setting.

furthermore, those who dance regularly with one regular partner learn to accomodate their partner's deficiencies, so much so that should their partner ever correct anything, they often need an adjustment period themselves because their partner now feels 'wrong' somehow.

i see competitive lead & follow being like a specific (and intricate) dialect of a language. if you communicate only with those who speak this dialect fluently, you won't see a need to learn any more than that. IMO anyone who wants to be effective communicating with more people needs to know how to say something in more than one way - and understand that any word or phrase may have more than one meaning in a given context and that it's up to them to seek or give clarification as needed.

[Sarah]

Hi D-Spot

Your student is an adult, right? I think that you should tell her what you've told us here - point out the technical differences between what you're teaching and what your colleagues are teaching, and explain the reasons behind those differences. Then let her decide what she wants to be able to do, and you use your experience to point her in the best direction for learning whatever that is.

Cheers
Sarah

[mamboqueen]

Ditto what Sarah said. Let her communicate her goals to you. Personally, I would not hire teachers to teach me the same dances competitively AND socially. I found, after dropping a lot of cash, the right fit for me. I learn competitive dancing and then "adjust" it to social situations (less flash). And I find that if I am dancing with social dancers who don't compete, I'm focusing more on following their moves than when I'm dancing with my instructor (or other competitors) where I focus more on my positioning, etc. In any event, I have my "regular" teacher and then I have another teacher whom I take hustle and WCS lessons from beccause that is more his area of expertise.

She'll figure it out. And I have definitely had the "confusion" myself when dancing with different instructors, even within the same studio. Good luck!