Leaning Back

[volleybgrl]

Here's my dilemma: I'm taking group lessons from various female instructors, all of whom I like and trust very much. One instructor is telling me to lean back while dancing while the other suggests a straight back or leaning slightly forward. So ladies, which is it? I know there are different styles, so maybe it's a plea for the gentlemen as well...what feels better for you? I think leaning back adds a little more tension...maybe? I don't know. So confused :? ...input please!!!

[tj]

Here's my dilemma: I'm taking group lessons from various female instructors, all of whom I like and trust very much. One instructor is telling me to lean back while dancing while the other suggests a straight back or leaning slightly forward. So ladies, which is it?


Yes.


I know there are different styles, so maybe it's a plea for the gentlemen as well...what feels better for you? I think leaning back adds a little more tension...maybe? I don't know. So confused :? ...input please!!!

Let me answer your question with a question - which feels better to you?




(personally, it depends on the circumstances and what I'm trying to accomplish at the time - if I want to generate a little tension before doing a move, then leaning back works well, if I'm keeping the dance super smooth, then good posture is important.)

[pygmalion]

Sorry I didn't get a chance to send you a personal PM, volleybgirl. I just got in.

So here's my take. Your posture should be more or less upright -- no leaning in one direction or the other. Your weight should be over the balls of your feet, though, which some teachers call "forward poised." That doesn't mean leaning. It means that your weight is over the front half of your foot.

Get your teacher to show you the concept. Stand perpendicular to a mirror -- with your side facing the mirror. If you look carefully, and have a good teacher to show you, you'll be able to see the difference between forward poised, directly over the center of your foot, and back-weighted. eventually, you'll feel it for yourself too.

[Danish Guy]

It’s salsa, so there are so many styles and ways to do things.
But don’t get the ballroom waltz lean back style for salsa.

Keep your own weight, and see what’s feels good for you.
Keeping your own weight and balance, will definitely set a limit to how much a lean back style is possible.

But leaning back, while you and your partner plays with the music could be cool. Maybe you’re asking for a dip.

[pygmalion]

But don’t get the ballroom waltz lean back style for salsa.



:shock: Scary thought. I can just see the poor girl getting laughed out of the salsa club. Eeek! :oops: :lol: :lol:

[pygmalion]

For some good salsa dance/spin posture tips, take a look at Edie the Salsa Freak's article here. :wink: 8)


w w w.dancefreak.com/stories/posture.htm

[salsachinita]

I think I do lean back (torso only) sometimes, during open breaks mainly, to accentuate the arch of my back :? .

Not sure why I do it. I think it was a very early habit, possibly picked up from dancing old-school style which required more resist ('tension') & it was more momentum-based.

I think it is part of my personal style now. Eventhough it did bug this one partner I had, most people don't seem to notice it.

IMO whatever feels most comfortable to you should be the way to go 8) .

[squirrel]

from my experience, the weight center of your body should always be considered... if you lean backwards, don't you move it to the front? does it look good when you do it? don't you lose your balance? when exactly do you lean backwards? at the end of a CBL, when the leader goes in open break?

[Sabor]

if u mean your question as in the generally correct stance for salsa then i agree with Pygmalion.

its not just a matter of whats comfortable with u in this regard but u also have to consider the lead and how he leads.. its a couples dance afterall.. so u adapt by shifting position/resistance/weight in different angles to accomadate the lead and get the best out of the dance..

yet.. given u have a good balanced smooth lead.. pygmalion put it like i see it .. cause in such a position u would be more acute and responsive to your lead and maintain a good balance and weight distribution that are essential.. especially in faster songs.

[volleybgrl]

I know what you guys mean by leaning back for styling purposes. Occasionally I'll do that on the 5 during a CBL, or during a slow right turn, but I was instructed to lean back ALL the time. I can hold it on my own, but can be knocked over easily if pushed or prodded slightly. I feel very stiff when trying to lean because I'm focusing on keeping my abs really tight as not to fall back. I think I'll try staying straight, and leave leaning for the occasional styling.

[pygmalion]

Leaning back or forward for styling is a lot different than leaning all the time.

I know lots of guys, especially, who lean forward while dancing -- gives them that cool street flava. :wink: I like the way it looks, personally.

But, as a rule, leaning? No way. For styling, fine, but how the heck are you going to keep your balance, especially when you're trying to spin? :shock: I prefer Edie's method. Stand up straight, at least most of the time. :wink:

[peachexploration]

I think I'll try staying straight, and leave leaning for the occasional styling.

Yeah, this is the best way and Pygmalion is right. Can't do a spin if you're leaning. Should be straight as much as possible. If not, You'll fall on your glutamus tookas. :D

[borikensalsero]

Straight up is too ballroom for my taste, it can look sexy and all, but I actually like the slight forward slant of the body. In the afro-cuban class I take, the instructor has us stand side ways to the mirror and look at our bodies straight up and with a slight slant of the body. Kind of as if you were about to take a step, the first thing that goes is a lean of your upper body, then your feet follow. Hence, she ask us to have that slight slant of the body.

It drives me crazy when a girl leans back, way too much, and it takes all my might to get her to move on the 2. AHHHHHH, com'on now, any chance we had of looking smooth's just been shot. :cry: worse yet, those girls that jump out to the side on the cross body, hence, taking me almost with them. AHHHHHH Help Help.

However, what ever feels comfortable to you is good for me. Don't particularly care, even if I complain.

[pygmalion]

LOL! Hate to tell you this, boriken, but that sounds like forward poise. Eeek! Not a ballroom term. :wink: :lol: :lol:

[peachexploration]

It drives me crazy when a girl leans back, way too much, and it takes all my might to get her to move on the 2. AHHHHHH, com'on now, any chance we had of looking smooth's just been shot. :cry: worse yet, those girls that jump out to the side on the cross body, hence, taking me almost with them. AHHHHHH Help Help......

Yeah, that would seem like I'm too far away. If you lean out too much, depending on what you're doing, the the arms are over extended and balance is thrown off completely. Almost like you're trying to keep away from the guy because he has bad breath or something and the guy has to use extra force to pull you in. Ouch! :lol:

[borikensalsero]

LOL! Hate to tell you this, boriken, but that sounds like forward poise. Eeek! Not a ballroom term. :wink: :lol: :lol:

:tongue: :tongue:

[volleybgrl]

Almost like you're trying to keep away from the guy because he has bad breath or something and the guy has to use extra force to pull you in. Ouch! :lol:

I'll keep it in my back pocket for just such instances...and yes they seem to occur regularly. :|

[Vin]

One of the local instructors teaches everyone to lean forward when stepping forward and to lean back when stepping back. I have picked it up and actually like the way my body carries this way. This is how I do it when open stanced. When closed I think I still do this slightly although the leans have to be more subtle.

[Sagitta]

I actually thought it was lean back when going forward and forward when going back while breaking? :?

[pygmalion]

You know, I'm beginning to suspect that we're all working with different definitions of the word "lean." Hmm.

[SDsalsaguy]

I certainly hope so Jenn . . . otherwise some of the things here just baffle me . . . :oops: :? :o

[pygmalion]

You know, SD, this thread is bothering me a lot. I'm visualizing people bending over forward or tipping over backward after reading this thread. *shudder* I wonder what we can do to clarify the terminology so that we're all singing from the same sheet of music. (That's why I referenced Edie's article. It has pictures. :? )

[peachexploration]

Straight up is too ballroom for my taste, it can look sexy and all, but I actually like the slight forward slant of the body. In the afro-cuban class I take, the instructor has us stand side ways to the mirror and look at our bodies straight up and with a slight slant of the body. Kind of as if you were about to take a step, the first thing that goes is a lean of your upper body, then your feet follow. Hence, she ask us to have that slight slant of the body.......

I read Boriken's post again and saw that he mentioned "afro-cuban". In the case, we're not speaking of posture. I went and practiced this in the mirror. For instance, if you stand in the mirror, both feet planted and using the balls of your feet, keep the straight body and try to sway your hips, it will look stiff but as soon as you "slightly" slant your upper body forward and lean into the hip, the motion becomes easier and more relaxed and you can get that really good figure eight motion going.

I found this and maybe below will explain it better:

Some social schools believe that the easiest way to achieve this hip movement is by stepping without weight, in the same way you would climb stairs. (That's where the lean comes in.)Practice the following exercise on the spot and in time to the count of quick, quick slow; quick, quick slow. With your feet together, place your weight over your right leg. At the same time swing the left knee across the right knee (quick). Now transfer your weight onto your left leg and swing your right knee across your left knee(quick). Now transfer your weight onto your right leg and swing your left knee across your right knee(slow). Repeat this exercise a few times and while doing so, keep the shoulders still and feel the hips swinging from side to side.
Note, the leg that has the weight on it, must be very straight while the leg without the weight (the knee that swings across the other) must be bent. Other schools say, to feel this 'Cuban style' when dancing the Mambo or Salsa basics, straighten the knee as you push the toe into the floor on all forward, side and back breaks, i.e. your 1st and 4th steps. The straightening of the knee causes the hip to automatically swing. This method, compared with the 'stepping without weight' action, gives a more natural hip swing to the Cuban style and is much easier to apply.
So as you get good at swaying, eventually there will be a lean happening but it should be subtle. You can try this with merengue as well. Boriken, correct?
Volleybgrl, is this what your instructor was speaking of or something different?

[borikensalsero]

Straight up is too ballroom for my taste, it can look sexy and all, but I actually like the slight forward slant of the body. In the afro-cuban class I take, the instructor has us stand side ways to the mirror and look at our bodies straight up and with a slight slant of the body. Kind of as if you were about to take a step, the first thing that goes is a lean of your upper body, then your feet follow. Hence, she ask us to have that slight slant of the body.......

I read Boriken's post again and saw that he mentioned "afro-cuban". In the case, we're not speaking of posture. I went and practiced this in the mirror. For instance, if you stand in the mirror, both feet planted and using the balls of your feet, keep the straight body and try to sway your hips, it will look stiff but as soon as you "slightly" slant your upper body forward and lean into the hip, the motion becomes easier and more relaxed and you can get that really good figure eight motion going.

I found this and maybe below will explain it better:

Some social schools believe that the easiest way to achieve this hip movement is by stepping without weight, in the same way you would climb stairs. (That's where the lean comes in.)Practice the following exercise on the spot and in time to the count of quick, quick slow; quick, quick slow. With your feet together, place your weight over your right leg. At the same time swing the left knee across the right knee (quick). Now transfer your weight onto your left leg and swing your right knee across your left knee(quick). Now transfer your weight onto your right leg and swing your left knee across your right knee(slow). Repeat this exercise a few times and while doing so, keep the shoulders still and feel the hips swinging from side to side.
Note, the leg that has the weight on it, must be very straight while the leg without the weight (the knee that swings across the other) must be bent. Other schools say, to feel this 'Cuban style' when dancing the Mambo or Salsa basics, straighten the knee as you push the toe into the floor on all forward, side and back breaks, i.e. your 1st and 4th steps. The straightening of the knee causes the hip to automatically swing. This method, compared with the 'stepping without weight' action, gives a more natural hip swing to the Cuban style and is much easier to apply.
So as you get good at swaying, eventually there will be a lean happening but it should be subtle. You can try this with merengue as well. Boriken, correct?
Volleybgrl, is this what your instructor was speaking of or something different?

Yeap, that is along the lines of what I was taught. The entire deal with the lean is, even if we don't notice, that our body leans forward before we even think of taking a step. When we dance, as per the afro cuban way I was taught, we should always keep that same natural body movement going. When we walk we don't go feet first, then body follows. Hence, the reason why the technique I speak of doesn't call for a straight up body posture. It isn’t natural to a moving body; only a motionless body should have an upright posture... However, we must note that the slant of the body isn't generated by the upper body lean

The lean isn’t bending at the waist. It is the entire body, with body weight on the ball of the feet, with a slight SLANT. From there everything then starts to happen with the legs, but first we must use the upper body to create motion in the lower part of the body. The less weight being handle by the legs, the "free-er" we are to move, hence, the smoother the upper body will look when we dance. For there is just too much weight on the upper body to allow the feet to carry the load when we dance. We help it with motions generated at the core.

If we naturally try to walk, the first thing we'll feel is a forward slight SLANT of the entire body, caused by the tightening of the stomach (that is where all motion is generated, at the core of human energy), the leg that is about to step forward becomes free of body weight, the stomach is even tighter now (pulling upper body and leg towards each other, the hip falls on that same side direction, and the leg we are pushing off with pretty much locks.

To try it, attempt taking a step but don't. Feel the slant of the body forward, but a split second before, the stomach tightens, letting the body know that it is about to move. Well, that is the same slat that I was taught to have when I dance, and why I ended up not liking the "stiffer" looking straight up posture, even if it can look sexy. Everything just flows smoother out of the body when we allow it to move as it naturally was meant to. When we force muscle movement it ends up looking like an unatural motion, as opposed to further enhancing the way the muscle naturally moves. Kind of like the disjointed look of the shoulder shake when done by moving the shoulders alone. As good as some manage to do it, it always looks disjointed. As opposed to doing it using the core, which causes the body to look smooth, and never disjointed.

Even in salsa when you can do what you want, the goal IMHO, is to look smooth no matter how fast the body moves, or what part of the body is moving. If we don't allow the body to naturally move, no matter how good we become at a technique, the body will always look unnatural in its own skin. We have forced it to move in way that it just naturally doesn't....

[pygmalion]

Thanks, borikensalsero. Now we're talking the same language. I thought we were all along. The biomechanics of the human body are the same. :wink: (And, just for the record, movement is generated from the body's center in ballroom, too. :wink: :D )

[borikensalsero]

Thanks, borikensalsero. Now we're talking the same language. I thought we were all along. The biomechanics of the human body are the same. :wink: (And, just for the record, movement is generated from the body's center in ballroom, too. :wink: :D )

You know what I've noticed, that it doesn't matter what we are taught. All of the techniques, regardless of use, that truly step head above shoulders over the others, end up using the exact same principles of movement.

Except.............. There is always spiritual implications when we speak in Afro Cuban terms, or easter techniques. It is never about the body, it is about something beyond the body, only a judeo-christian society removes the spiritual aspects from body motion.

Martial Arts, tai chi, dancing, sports, every time we are taught properly the discussions usually, despite details, end up concentrating on the same in all. The core movement of the body.

[pygmalion]

Yes. And it's only in rare moments, or if you're very, very lucky, that, as a "secular" dancer, you get to tap into the innate spirituality of the experience. I think it's there all the time, but you have to be willing to see it and tap into it.

The spirituality is a lot closer to the surface with some types of dances than with others, but it's there all the time, I think, if you let yourself experience it. Once you get past thinking about steps and styling, you can open your spirit and feel the dance. It's fantastic! :D

[borikensalsero]

Yes. And it's only in rare moments, or if you're very, very lucky, that, as a "secular" dancer, you get to tap into the innate spirituality of the experience. I think it's there all the time, but you have to be willing to see it and tap into it.

The spirituality is a lot closer to the surface with some types of dances than with others, but it's there all the time, I think, if you let yourself experience it. Once you get past thinking about steps and styling, you can open your spirit and feel the dance. It's fantastic! :D

Oh Boy, am I sensing a topic Hijacking here!

Ok, secular is one of those words I never really understand, I guess it means nothing to do with spirituality, religion, but rather very physical? Please let me know if I'm wrong.

My belief is, that nothing is secular, everything has its spiritual implications, more so in terms of dancing, as you mention what needs to happen to experience it, is the letting go of the mind, but to let go of the mind, we need to break all of our unconscious beliefs of dancing.

The issue here is the history of dance and what a culture has been brought up believing about it. Dance at its simplest form has always had spiritual implications. Dance was done to conjure the heavenly. However, religious beliefs changed that, as well as, social castes. Then during a period of time religion (western religions) began to see dancing as something, kind of, along the lines of evil.

That belief along with what the upper class stressing that dancing was for the filth of the world, gave birth to new unconscious beliefs in dancing. Mainly the “white” world began to see their dancing as an upper class gathering, hence, their dance became something done specifically for social reasons. At this time, only the Africans had kept their religions beliefs with implications in dancing. Hence, all people that came from those religious beliefs saw dancing with more implications than that of their “white” counter parts. They saw dancing always with a spiritual eye, were as, the white world, because of the evolution of their thinking, saw it as, a social gathering with first caste divisions, entertainment, sport, and eventually the means to sex. That was never the case with African slaves in America.

Now, being in America, we have no choice but to follow the American unconscious thought of thinking that dancing is secular. Why so? Because thousands of years of human culture has told us so. It is something we don’t think about, we just know it.

However, to an afro Cuban dancer, whose religious belief is Santeria, dancing will never be thought of as secular. That is when percussion comes in to play with salsa. And something I can’t speak of any more for it is part of the book I am writting..

[pygmalion]

Amen to that. That's why I put secular in quotes. Dance IS spiritual, if you ask me (although I'm sure many disagree.) Hmm. Maybe we should start a different thread, and let people in this thread keep talking about leaning. I think there are still some misunderstandings to be cleared about about leaning for styling, leaning for forward and back movements, leaning during XBLs, etc.

I looked up secular in an online dictionary, and it gave these definitions.

1. Worldly rather than spiritual.
2. Not specifically relating to religion or to a religious body: secular music.
3. Relating to or advocating secularism.

[borikensalsero]

Amen to that. That's why I put secular in quotes. Dance IS spiritual, if you ask me (although I'm sure many disagree.) Hmm. Maybe we should start a different thread, and let people in this thread keep talking about leaning. I think there are still some misunderstandings to be cleared about about leaning for styling, leaning for forward and back movements, leaning during XBLs, etc.

I looked up secular in an online dictionary, and it gave these definitions.

1. Worldly rather than spiritual.
2. Not specifically relating to religion or to a religious body: secular music.
3. Relating to or advocating secularism.



I thought about making a thread, but inevitably, we will get deep into religious talk of which, as we know, is a hard topic to speak of without bringing :argue: into the scene. It is very easy to turn an exchange of strong ideas to an ill advised argument.

[peachexploration]

Amen to that. That's why I put secular in quotes. Dance IS spiritual, if you ask me (although I'm sure many disagree.) Hmm. Maybe we should start a different thread, and let people in this thread keep talking about leaning. I think there are still some misunderstandings to be cleared about about leaning for styling, leaning for forward and back movements, leaning during XBLs, etc.

I looked up secular in an online dictionary, and it gave these definitions.

1. Worldly rather than spiritual.
2. Not specifically relating to religion or to a religious body: secular music.
3. Relating to or advocating secularism.



I thought about making a thread, but inevitably, we will get deep into religious talk of which, as we know, is a hard topic to speak of without bringing :argue: into the scene. It is very easy to turn an exchange of strong ideas to an ill advised argument.
Right, Boriken. :)


Don't forget to put me on your First Edition list when your book is published. :lol:

[borikensalsero]

Amen to that. That's why I put secular in quotes. Dance IS spiritual, if you ask me (although I'm sure many disagree.) Hmm. Maybe we should start a different thread, and let people in this thread keep talking about leaning. I think there are still some misunderstandings to be cleared about about leaning for styling, leaning for forward and back movements, leaning during XBLs, etc.

I looked up secular in an online dictionary, and it gave these definitions.

1. Worldly rather than spiritual.
2. Not specifically relating to religion or to a religious body: secular music.
3. Relating to or advocating secularism.



I thought about making a thread, but inevitably, we will get deep into religious talk of which, as we know, is a hard topic to speak of without bringing :argue: into the scene. It is very easy to turn an exchange of strong ideas to an ill advised argument.
Right, Boriken. :)


Don't forget to put me on your First Edition list when your book is published. :lol:

I have penciled you in peach :D

[Sarah]

Thanks, borikensalsero. Now we're talking the same language. I thought we were all along. The biomechanics of the human body are the same. :wink: (And, just for the record, movement is generated from the body's center in ballroom, too. :wink: :D )

So - grace comes from the centre. :)
That works for me on a number of levels - I like it.

Cheers
Sarah