What is Tango Nuevo?

[larrynla]

Before I write further please let me know if I break the rules in any way, so I
can avoid offending. When I signed on today I got a message saying I had been
banned forever from this forum, for "No reason specified." The forum
moderator unbanned me immediately because he could also see no reason for the
banning. Thanks in advance!
_______________________________________________
What is tango nuevo? And what use is it?

I SHOULD be able to figure it out for myself. I've done social dancing of all
kinds, including some esoteric stuff and popular kinds including swing,
ballroom, and latin, for almost fifty years. Plus I've been a tango fanatic
for nearly twenty years and taken lessons from literally dozens of teachers.

I have always been interested in whatever new thing comes down the road, so
several years ago when Fabian Salas and later "Chicho" Frumboli came through LA
I took their classes. I use some of the figures said to be tango nuevo,
including volcadas, and I'm working on colgadas. (To top it off, I'm a software
and systems engineer working in aerospace. I'm used to learning and using some
very complex and esoteric systems of ideas.)

And I have not been able to figure out what the heck tango nuevo is! Or what
good it does the ordinary dancer.

Can anybody in this forum explain it? In simple language?
_______________________________________________
Maybe it would help provide a basis for discussion if I mention what I remember
from Salas' classes.

The basic "step" is a single step. A person can step to the side of the
supporting leg, directly forward, directly back, across in front of their
support, or across behind it. We have two legs, so in all there are ten basic
steps.

Another important idea is the open position. Unlike the basic step this is not
a characteristic of the person. It is a characteristic of two partners - how
they are related.

Matters are pretty simple if the partners are in front of each other and the man
leads a side step. Her legs are open to him for sacadas, entradas, etc.

It becomes more complicated if he leads her into a cross-behind or a cross-in-
front step. (If, for instance, he wants to lead a backward of a forward ocho.)
One of those is an open and the other a closed position. Frankly, now, years
later, I don't remember which. And I don't see why getting the name correct is
important. It is immediately obvious when you are dancing which lets you do a
sacada safely and which doesn't.

Still, I perservered in taking his classes and taking notes and memorizing
terms. Several years later I looked back at the notes and they made no sense
whatsoever. So a couple of years ago when Salas put out three tapes/DVDs on
basic tango I bought them, thinking that with videos I could play over and over
again I would finally GET IT.

Uh, no. Not a word of all he tried to teach us years ago. So now I wonder,
again. What the heck is tango nuevo? And what use is it?


Larry de Los Angeles

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

I am not sure I get it right. You are telling that you don't understand what Tango Nuevo is or you got a problem with the mentioned system of categorizing steps and positions (using terms "open", "side", "cross front/back")?

From my experience, not all Nuevo instructors use that system in their classes. On the other hand, some "traditional" instructors do use it. To me, it is just a way of explaining things, and, just like with any system, some people find it helpful, some not.

Out of personal curiosity: could you share, where and from whom you were learning argentine tango 20 years ago? :)

[bordertangoman]

Before I write further please let me know if I break the rules in any way, so I
can avoid offending. When I signed on today I got a message saying I had been
banned forever from this forum,

congratulations; I have been trying to get banned for ages now but the I just get Moderatated instead!

[bordertangoman]

I think tango nuevo is anything the Traditionalist Fundamentalists dont like!

[bastet]

I am not sure I get it right. You are telling that you don't understand what Tango Nuevo is or you got a problem with the mentioned system of categorizing steps and positions (using terms "open", "side", "cross front/back")?

From my experience, not all Nuevo instructors use that system in their classes. On the other hand, some "traditional" instructors do use it. To me, it is just a way of explaining things, and, just like with any system, some people find it helpful, some not.

Out of personal curiosity: could you share, where and from whom you were learning argentine tango 20 years ago? :)

Agreed - what I have understood as Tango Nuevo is that it is a teaching system- a way of relating to all the possible positions you could take in tango in terms of open or crossed to each other...

However, if you are talking about what may differentiate Nuevo style dancing (as it is mostly referred to in the US at least) from something like Salon or what is called Milonguero in the US....

I personally think it has more to do with the way the steps are approached, both musically and also how they are combined (in ways not traditionally done), plus all the off axis stuff that is done now that wasn't really part of traditional Salon vocablulary. The energy feels different, when I am dancing Nuevo style with someone, versus in a flat on embrace with small steps and a different dynamic feel to it and the leader will approach the musical interpretation differently in addition to all the other technical differences....but that's just my opinion....

[newbie]

One thing I've heard from Seb. Arce is that tango nuevo is not a style of dance but a way of teaching it, a toolkit created by Fabian & Co. And then he gave an exemple of one private class he had with an older, not-nuevo maestro because he wanted to learn how to lead boleos.
The maestro said, see her left shoulder? Push and she will do a back boleo with the left leg. Pull and she will do a front boleo. Push/pull the other shoulder and she will do the back/front boleo with the other leg.

[opendoor]

For me NUEVO is a didactical aproach, not a stylistic:
no new figures and steps were invented. But, the systematization and syllabus changed. F/i the base/basico/basic and the molinete from the PUGLIESE teaching system were left away. You can find this in particular in the latest branch, the Tangodiscovery System: You teach almost everything yet from the beginning.
By the way, there is a different lead, too. I think it has more in common with the stage and fantasia tango of a TODARO and BRAVO than with PUGLIESE.

[bordertangoman]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UpxKnPuMrIk&feature=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TN1GRk0IK5Y&feature=related

a video paints a thousand words;

music Viz sin lubi; narcotango;

[opendoor]

Hi BTA, I know, I´m boaring and overcategorizing: but I would call this NEO, not Nuevo :raisebro:

[bastet]

Hi BTA, I know, I´m boaring and overcategorizing: but I would call this NEO, not Nuevo :raisebro:

I still understand your meaning, I just think in the US , the term Neo has just not caught on...most people here refer to it in the same reference as the teaching style, Nuevo...probably becasue most of the teachers who dance this way also teach in that system...so people have related the two here....

[bastet]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UpxKnPuMrIk&feature=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TN1GRk0IK5Y&feature=related

a video paints a thousand words;

music Viz sin lubi; narcotango;


right...versus something like this...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgWMs0rAcJk

[bordertangoman]

right...versus something like this...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgWMs0rAcJk

or this:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hP2vnoLQlvk&eurl=http://newevotango.com/?cat=19

[bordertangoman]

Hi BTA, I know, I´m boaring and overcategorizing: but I would call this NEO, not Nuevo :raisebro:

okay well the easy answer is Nuevo Tango is anything composed by Piazzolla.

Its NOT dance and its NOT music by anyone else.

Only Piazzolla.

End of Thread.

Moderator, lock it up!!

[opendoor]

Now I´m feeling guilty.

peace ? ! ?

[tangonuevo]

What is tango nuevo? And what use is it?
.....
Larry de Los Angeles

Given my forum name, I can not but respond to this even though I am not a maestro nor even a teacher. Also, I don't claim to know what it is or what use it is, so skip this if you want a definitive answer.

For me, it represents a didactic that opens doors, expands vocabulary, and frees my dancing. The fluidity and variety of the "allowed" embrace is re fresh ing. ( Why does re fresh ing get turned into stars when I put the letters together to make a word? Like this: *******ing. ) It also helps reinforce the idea that there are no patterns in tango, just single steps. The result is a vastly expanded license to interpret the music and to just dance without concern as to what is 'correct' or 'incorrect'. It does add significantly to the requirement that my leads be clear and smooth, and it similarly requires that the follow be open to absolutely anything happening next.

I find dancing with nuevo concepts outrageously fun. And for me, that is value enough.

[bordertangoman]

wickedpedia has very little to say (DaveBailey where are you?)

but a nice pic.

We might have to go with the Humpty Dumpty version on this.

[Me]

Sorry BTM but it had to be done....

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/iloveseverus/nuevo_Tango1CK.jpg?t=1227028107

[opendoor]

@ ME ... wonder what she is heading for ...


@ BTM
Ok, I comply with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_tango#Tango_Nuevo


@ ME (excellent !) ... must got to do with ..

.. the audience ... clad entirely in black ...


@ BTM
may you help me with Humpty Dumpty ?

[Steve Pastor]

Read this article, still the best I've seen on the subject.
http://www.totango.net/salas.html
I do believe that Salas says they did in fact invent the back boleo, but little else.



regarding the use of certain letter combinations...
Surely, you can think of a 4 letter word beginning in "f" that might be caught by filters because it might offend people?)

[opendoor]

... Salas says they did in fact invent the back boleo, but little else.

Hello Steve, please take a look at this old vid at about 1:11 (and 1:26). Ain´t there boleos, not very graceful but with front and backwarts movements.

Hugo posted a clip showing Arolas playing Derecho Viejo and a couple dancing to it. To my mind, they dance very modern: you can see a lot of voleos, enrosques and a corte.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9fpCj5hY_U

[Zoopsia59]

regarding the use of certain letter combinations...
Surely, you can think of a 4 letter word beginning in "f" that might be caught by filters because it might offend people?)

How does that relate to the use of the word "re-fresh-ing" which does not begin with f nor have 4 letters?

[Steve Pastor]

The filter apparently looks for a combination of letters. That would prevent someone from embedding it among other letters.
Hey, someone wrote that code, and I'm just trying to figure out how it works. But I'm not the filter expert. Got other things to do.

[Steve Pastor]

Can't do youtube.
Based on what I read in the article (a long time ago) I'd be willing to bet Salas would admit that he misspoke, or whatever. And it could be that I remember what is in there incorrectly. It's been a long time (he repeats). Lots of talented people are very humble about what they've done/ are doing. Their accomplishments speak for them.
But you don't have to be perfect.

[Angel HI]

Before I write further please let me know if I break the rules in any way, so I can avoid offending. When I signed on today I got a message saying I had been banned forever from this forum, for "No reason specified." The forum moderator unbanned me immediately because he could also see no reason for the banning. Thanks in advance!
Without going back to research it, I believe that your ban was an error, and later rescinded. Sorry, sometimes we make er..er...err...
...sometimes, we are wro...wr...wro...
...sometimes things happen. :rolleyes:
_______________________________________________
What is tango nuevo? And what use is it? I have not been able to figure out what the heck tango nuevo is! Can anybody in this forum explain it? In simple language?
Firstly, let's clear up the terminology. For our purpose, here, let's not distinguish between nuevo and neo. In the U.S., the term nuevo is most acceptable. Secondly, I believe that you have a background in other forms of dance. At its most simplistic, think of nuevo as being to AT what international is to american bronze ballroom. One is concerned of rudimentary elements; the other is concerned of free flowing movement.

....what good it does the ordinary dancer.
Actually, quite alot can be gained from it. Of course, the purist hate it b/c it is not tango as they know it (reminds me of how my parents didn't like things of my generation, and I have a certain reserve for several things of my little daughter's generation). However, nuevo's main component is the natural float of the movement, and the natural float of the movement as it crosses traditionally argentine tango characteristics.

Still, I perservered in taking his classes and taking notes and memorizing terms.
I shared before a moment during a workshop, when Cecilia Gonzalez (who is partnering Fabian on the DVDs that you mentioned) was asked how one can remember all of the stuff that she was teaching. She looked at me...looked at the fellow who asked the question, and said, "What do you want to do that for?" She later explained that dance is not arithmetic (in your case, engineering), and told the guy to just allow his body to follow what she is doing, and assimilate what he could. To take back whatever he could, and, most importantly, don't try to do it like her, but to make it his own. This also, further, answers the question, what good it does the ordinary dancer.

What the heck is tango nuevo? What began as a perceived more natural way of teaching/expressing the movement/s of tango has evolved into a more opened, floating form of dance and shared expression, and dance of its own.

[larrynla]

So, from these replies and some articles linked to here and elsewhere, it seems as if Naveira and Salas did not invent a new version of tango. Instead they invented a new way to look at it.

Their first motivation, Salas says, was to preserve what they saw distinguished milongueros (many of whom were aging and passing on) do. By around 2000 Salas, at least, hoped their system could also make it easier to teach beginners.

He seems to have given up that idea. In the first of the three intro-to-tango videos he and Cecilia Gonzalez made he used the 8-count-basic as a skeleton to hang the ideas of walking, the embrace, walking in an embrace, the woman's cross, the tango close, and ochos. Then he covers half- and full-turns in both clockwise and counterclockwise directions.

In the second video he elaborates on the walk he introduced in video 1: forward, backward, inside and outside one's partner's feet, parallel- and cross- feet walks, and the back-cross for the man. In the third he elaborates on the turns he introduced in video 1, adding planeos and enrosques and showing combinations such as giros ending with back ochos.

I wonder if anyone uses The System (or whatever Naveira and Salas call it) to teach tango. And if so, who? And with what success?

Larry de Los Angeles

[bastet]

So, from these replies and some articles linked to here and elsewhere, it seems as if Naveira and Salas did not invent a new version of tango. Instead they invented a new way to look at it.

Their first motivation, Salas says, was to preserve what they saw distinguished milongueros (many of whom were aging and passing on) do. By around 2000 Salas, at least, hoped their system could also make it easier to teach beginners.

He seems to have given up that idea. In the first of the three intro-to-tango videos he and Cecilia Gonzalez made he used the 8-count-basic as a skeleton to hang the ideas of walking, the embrace, walking in an embrace, the woman's cross, the tango close, and ochos. Then he covers half- and full-turns in both clockwise and counterclockwise directions.

In the second video he elaborates on the walk he introduced in video 1: forward, backward, inside and outside one's partner's feet, parallel- and cross- feet walks, and the back-cross for the man. In the third he elaborates on the turns he introduced in video 1, adding planeos and enrosques and showing combinations such as giros ending with back ochos.

I wonder if anyone uses The System (or whatever Naveira and Salas call it) to teach tango. And if so, who? And with what success?

Larry de Los Angeles

Actually I have had more than a couple of classes from teachers who have taught a class I took using the open steps versus crossed steps idea, and learned some really nice excersizes for flow that go with the concepts.

I think conceptually, it's too much for outright beginners....but as someone get's their feet under them, and starts to gain some vocabulary, it's a really good way to put a lot of ideas in to another perspective, and I think it's easy enough for a teaher to start planting the ideas of open versus crossed early on.

[Angel HI]

So, from these replies and some articles linked to here and elsewhere, it seems as if Naveira and Salas did not invent a new version of tango. Instead they invented a new way to look at it.
Nice insight.
I wonder if anyone uses The System (or whatever Naveira and Salas call it) to teach tango. And if so, who? And with what success?
I think conceptually, it's too much for outright beginners....and I think it's easy enough for a teaher to start planting the ideas of open versus crossed early on.
Yes. I have. Salas and Gonzalez are 2 of my later coaches (Ceci actually started close to when I did, if that tells you, anything). :confused: I, nor the students, have trouble w/ it. The Salas/Naveira systeme of movement is not limited to what they admittedly worngly call crossed feet. Their systeme of movement simply allows for an expansion of the basics of traditional tango, which naturally created options that, priorly, were unfavored or did not exist. It is not really a difficult systeme to understand, though, it can be a :headwall: to dance.

[bordertangoman]

I wonder if anyone uses The System (or whatever Naveira and Salas call it) to teach tango. And if so, who? And with what success?

Larry de Los Angeles[/FONT]

I think this is what Mauricio Castro uses in his book Structure of the Dance and in his DVDs.

The book is hard to comprehend but the three Dvds I found useful.

[Dave Bailey]

OK, maybe I'm completely confused, but I think of it in terms of walking vs. circling.

To me, traditional tango (salon style, I guess) is about the walk, walking in the line of dance, with occasional embellishments.

To me, nuevo tango style is about two dancers circling around either other - the key element is the concept of the circle.

Does that make sense?

[bordertangoman]

OK, maybe I'm completely confused, but I think of it in terms of walking vs. circling.

To me, traditional tango (salon style, I guess) is about the walk, walking in the line of dance, with occasional embellishments.

To me, nuevo tango style is about two dancers circling around either other - the key element is the concept of the circle.

Does that make sense?

You mean tango can be a wave or a particle; s'obvious.;)

[bastet]

OK, maybe I'm completely confused, but I think of it in terms of walking vs. circling.

To me, traditional tango (salon style, I guess) is about the walk, walking in the line of dance, with occasional embellishments.

To me, nuevo tango style is about two dancers circling around either other - the key element is the concept of the circle.

Does that make sense?


Yes- I tend to associate Salon with the walk, and walking figures that take a fair amount of moving space....and Nuevo with a more circular concept, or large movments that tend to be "athletically demanding" (i.e. they take up a lot of my energy but I'm using athletically demanding instead of energetic now...:))

But I think of Milonguero in a more circular sense also, since it developed as part of a need to stay in place on a crowded floor.

I think that's why I prefer to dance either Nuevo or Milonguero style too, because I like the circular aspect.

[tangonuevo]

... The Salas/Naveira systeme of movement is not limited to what they admittedly worngly call crossed feet....
I think that they use parallel and crossed feet just like the rest of the tango world. But they also use open and cross to describe the position of the legs of the woman relative to the man irrespective of which foot either is on. I originally found the open/cross description to be quite useful when analyzing possibilities and trying new things. After years of thinking that way I now find that it has become second nature and flows into my dancing as well.

[tangonuevo]

But I think of Milonguero in a more circular sense also, since it developed as part of a need to stay in place on a crowded floor.
Tango and Chaos has some great footage of Milongueros dancing circles.

I do not think of nuevo as more circular than linear. I instead view it as supporting all of the possibilities of tango, driven entirely by music, partnership, space and floor conditions, and not by stylistic (that word) limitations or preconceptions.

[bastet]

I think that they use parallel and crossed feet just like the rest of the tango world. But they also use open and cross to describe the position of the legs of the woman relative to the man irrespective of the which foot the either is on. I originally found the open/cross description to be quite useful when analyzing possibilities and trying new things. After years of thinking that way I now find that it has become second nature and flows into my dancing as well.

right- this is how i have understood it. It's mostly a new description or way of approaching what was already being used to open up new possibilities.

And if you are a complete beginner, and are at the phase where just getting used to some of the tango vocabulary (ie ochos and so forth) is still an excersize in frustration, then I don't think trying to show someone all the possibilities Nuevo has to offer is the best thing. Most teachers seem to teach it at a later time, when people have some basics under control and it makes more sense to start looking at the relational possibilites.

But if a teacher starts early on with the idea of open versus crossed positions, just as a matter of fact and makes mention of the body relations themselves from a very early time before they even teach about all the relational possibilites, so people get used to the idea of the body relation first...then I think there's less chance of what usually happens, which is that someone learns a certain way, and then someone asks them to reorganize it again under a new set of principles (Nuevo) and then they find it at least a little confusing...

[bastet]

Tango and Chaos has some great footage of Milongueros dancing circles.

I do not think of nuevo as more circular than linear. I instead view it as supporting all of the possibilities of tango, driven entirely by music, partnership, space and floor conditions, and not by stylistic (that word) limitations or preconceptions.

Yes- I can certainly see your point.

[tangonuevo]

...
But if a teacher starts early on with the idea of open versus crossed positions, just as a matter of fact and makes mention of the body relations themselves from a very early time before they even teach about all the relational possibilites, so people get used to the idea of the body relation first...then I think there's less chance of what usually happens, which is that someone learns a certain way, and then someone asks them to reorganize it again under a new set of principles (Nuevo) and then they find it at least a little confusing...
If only my earliest teachers had listened to you!...My introductory instruction was primarily informed by close embrace, where the concepts of open and cross are less important. Indeed, for me, integration of the ideas of open and crossed positions into my dancing was not a trivial task!!

[Steve Pastor]

I reviewed the class notes for an introductory class in what could only be called apilado/milonguero/close embrace, and, just as I remembered, going into and out of "crossed system" was introduced early on, in the third class.
I can't agree that it is less important than it is in "nuevo".
(What's important is that it be done well by both the man AND the woman. Only then do you feel the full impact.)

Although there is no requirement to dance small when dancing apilado / milonguero/ close embrace, it certainly facilitates it.
Changing to crossed system in an open embrace doesn't make much of an impression when open, but on a crowded floor it allows for interesting things to do while barely moving.

We should all try to understand that nuevo isn't all that new, or revolutionary, when it comes down to it. The idea that something flaunts the rules and is the province of revolutionaries who are remaking something appeals to many, however; even if it is only their peception of it that is new and revolutionary. Well, except maybe the selection of music to dance to.

[Steve Pastor]

This may be a little OT, but at one point "dance places" in BA had not only tango, but swing/jazz going on at the same time. So I wouldn't be surprised to learn that were dancers who incorporated "swango" like movements into their dance.

[bastet]

If only my earliest teachers had listened to you!...My introductory instruction was primarily informed by close embrace, where the concepts of open and cross are less important. Indeed, for me, integration of the ideas of open and crossed positions into my dancing was not a trivial task!!

I can certainly understand that, as I've seen plenty of frustration from people with it.

I don't personally see any reason why more and more people can't incorporate some of the teaching concepts of it no matter what style they are teaching in...even if milonguero style in the past has been taught in a more pattern oriented way, or groups of elemental concepts, I think the Nuevo teaching concepts can still be used to good effect.

For instance, if you take a simple rock turn to the left and rock turn to the right that often gets taught with close embrace where one direction the hips remain open to each other and in the other the hips get crossed, and if you just explain it matter of factly to someone new (who will inevitably ask why the two are different)...then you've at least sowed the seeds of being able to think that way, rather than have it be a huge conceptual mountain some ways down the road after a person is already set in their ways of thinking about the dance.

[tangonuevo]

... just as I remembered, going into and out of "crossed system" was introduced early on, in the third class....
I'll wager that what was discussed was crossed system as opposed to parallel system dealing with whether the man and woman are on the same or opposite feet.

The cross vs. open concept in nuevo is entirely unrelated to which foot either partner is on. Rather, it describes the relationship between the woman's legs and the man's torso. For example in a giro, the woman's side steps create an 'open' relationship, while the back and front steps create a 'cross' relationship.

[tangonuevo]

Open vs. Cross. As another example to help clarify, suppose the woman is walking around me ccw simply taking front steps. Then when she steps with her right foot she is open and when she steps with her left she is cross. Make sense?? I't doesn't matter which foot I am on, or even if I sitting on a chair in the middle of her circle, although sitting in the chair does make some of the dance a little awkward :-)

[Zoopsia59]

although sitting in the chair does make some of the dance a little awkward :-)

Obviously you've never been to an exotic dance club ;)

[Zoopsia59]

I'll wager that what was discussed was crossed system as opposed to parallel system dealing with whether the man and woman are on the same or opposite feet.

The cross vs. open concept in nuevo is entirely unrelated to which foot either partner is on. Rather, it describes the relationship between the woman's legs and the man's torso. For example in a giro, the woman's side steps create an 'open' relationship, while the back and front steps create a 'cross' relationship.

Thank you. This was helpful in that I was also confused about the difference between the very common "cross feet/ parallel feet" concept vs this "cross/open" thing you are all discussing.

I understand what you are meaning with the giro. Now what about simple forward and backward walking together? Is it considered "open" as long as the leader is not walking "outside partner" and crossed if he is?

(Obviously I've never had an instructor teach the possibilities using these terms, although I'm pretty sure I've been taught the various possibilities)

[tangonuevo]

... Now what about simple forward and backward walking together? Is it considered "open" as long as the leader is not walking "outside partner" and crossed if he is?...

Good question. If a couple is walking parallel feet face on, I would call every step open, but I've actually never thought about this before. But if the man is outside left, every back step by the woman with her right foot creates an open position, while every back step with her left creates a crossed position.

If the woman is facing the man and does a side step, creating a manifestly 'open' position, and then without moving her feet simply pivots on her toes so that her upper body rotates 90, or even 180, degrees, it is still open.

Probably clear as mud, but there it is ;).

[Zoopsia59]

Good question. ... but I've actually never thought about this before.
Probably clear as mud, but there it is ;).

So the terms of closed vs open seem to be applied primarily to the woman moving across the man rather than forward or backward with him?

Maybe its just me, but I'm not finding this method of thinking about the possibilities helpful. It seems to complicate what to my mind are pretty simple steps and concepts and requires some sort of memorization.

I have the same problem with the cross feet/parallel feet thing. I can do either, but I have to remember which term applies to which by memorizing it because its not intuitive to me to describe it that way. And at a certain point, I wonder "why bother?".. Just dance it!

[opendoor]

.. If a couple is walking parallel feet face on, I would call every step open, .. But if the man is outside left, every back step by the woman with her right foot creates an open position, while every back step with her left creates a crossed position....

hi together,
thats exactly what the Mauricio Castro people teach. I like to work with them from time to time. I think one should be able to switch the style according to the music played actually. Good night then!

[bastet]

Thank you. This was helpful in that I was also confused about the difference between the very common "cross feet/ parallel feet" concept vs this "cross/open" thing you are all discussing.

I understand what you are meaning with the giro. Now what about simple forward and backward walking together? Is it considered "open" as long as the leader is not walking "outside partner" and crossed if he is?

(Obviously I've never had an instructor teach the possibilities using these terms, although I'm pretty sure I've been taught the various possibilities)

I think tangonuevo covered it...walking in parallel in front of each other would be open steps, walking in outside partner in certain steps makes them crossed to each other...see you can include the idea everywhere! :) It's just another way of thinking about it. You certianly won't end up with as many possibilities in a milonguero embrace, because of the constraints of the embrace, but you can still get people used to the concepts themselves.

[Steve Pastor]

Maybe its just me, but I'm not finding this method of thinking about the possibilities helpful. It seems to complicate what to my mind are pretty simple steps and concepts and requires some sort of memorization.

I agree whole heartedly.
Vocabulary can either facilitate or hinder learning. The words used to teach should be as clear as possible, if your purpose is to communicate and inform.

I'll say again that the possibilities in an apilado embrace are not nearly as limited as some of you seem to think they are.

[tangonuevo]

...I'll say again that the possibilities in an apilado embrace are not nearly as limited as some of you seem to think they are.
Steve - please don't take this the wrong way because I am a huge student of close embrace, dancing as much and having taken perhaps more privates in that style (that word) than any other. And remember, I was the one suspected of being an acolyte of a nameless milonguero instructor. But here goes anyway: try doing a back sacada of your follows left foot from right outside partner with your left without breaking your close embrace frame. Not easy. In open embrace, not hard. Now you may not want to do such a thing, but that is a different issue altogether.

[tangonuevo]

...Maybe its just me, but I'm not finding this method of thinking about the possibilities helpful. It seems to complicate what to my mind are pretty simple steps and concepts and requires some sort of memorization...
At first I simply used the concepts merely in analyzing and thinking about the dance. Over time, that mode of thinking became fairly well integrated and I learned to simply dance the thoughts, but with MANY more possibilities always available to me, without any memorization or even thinking of step patterns, but just being very aware of my and my partner's body positions.

Today a have (essentially) no patterns whatsoever. I just dance. But it was largely through these kinds of thought processes that I can now do this.

[Steve Pastor]

try doing a back sacada of your follows left foot from right outside partner with your left without breaking your close embrace frame. Not easy. In open embrace, not hard. Now you may not want to do such a thing, but that is a different issue altogether.

I have no problem with this statement and just want to make the point that a/m/ce is not near as limited as most people seem to think.

Does it take a certain skill at disassociating your torso/hips/legs, while concentrating on maintining "the embrace? Of course it does.
(Most "close embrace frames" (an oxymoron, I'd argue, in apilado the "frame" becomes internal) are in fact assymetric and you end up with movement one way being easier than the other way. And, the more upright the partners are (on their own axis) the more restricted are the movements. And frankly, the way most "close embrace" is taught leads you there.)

But, the same methodology that inspired the labeling of certain movements, when writ large and energetic, to be labeled "nuevo" by the public, can also be used to understand a/m/ce.

Can you dance "nuevo milongureo"? And what would that be?

I'm pleased that you don't think patterns, etc; but would point out that how someone teaches is probably more important than the "nuevo" brand.
We could share observations about you unnamed instructor and others, but we don't usually go there.

[tangonuevo]

...Can you dance "nuevo milongureo"? And what would that be?

Interesting question. I think yes. But the answer comes down to understanding what you mean by nuevo, and what you mean by milonguero. Is "milonguero" necessarily danced small in a crowded space? Or does it mean dancing entirely on body? Does it mean it looks like an elderly porteno? Does it admit big movements? Is a deep volcada milonguero? Is an on-body linear boleo with a former ballerina resulting in the free leg describing a very large arc milonguero? Or nuevo? Or noneoftheabove? I don't know that I really want to go there with the labeling issue.

...how someone teaches is probably more important than the "nuevo" brand.
I think that the "nuevo brand", despite my username, is nearly irrelevant. A lot of what I lead with my regular partner, although 100% lead follow, I don't lead with most other women. This is because many have difficulty with requisite athleticism, understanding energy based leads, understanding suspension, ability to fully maintain balance and manage their own axis, etc. I personally consider most of the stuff requiring such followers technique as nuevo. But that is just personal categorization and nothing about brand. Probably wrong, but I don't know that I really care!

[Steve Pastor]

This is because many have difficulty with requisite athleticism, understanding energy based leads, understanding suspension, ability to fully maintain balance and manage their own axis, etc. I personally consider most of the stuff requiring such followers technique as nuevo. But that is just personal categorization and nothing about brand. Probably wrong, but I don't know that I really care!
It just so happens that I don't dance a/c/me (pretty soon I will be using ACME!) with most women for the same reason. I dont think have an understanding of energy based leads, suspension, and are not fully able to maintain balance and manage their own axis, etc.
Some of this is the same, some is different in the two "styles". The axis in apilado is shared, as an example.
Good dancers have the qualities you cite, and also almost as importantly, I would say, is the ability to "not freak out" and "fall apart" when asked to step somewhere they haven't learned by rote.
If I had more partners in West Coast Swing, as another example, who presented be with a clear axis, I could lead a lot more different things.
I've never had a "steady" AT partner, but do have women I've danced with through the years. So, if I can't lead something, or my current partner doesn't seem to be picking up the lead to do, for example, a back step rather than a forward step in a molinete, I just let it go.
Have you danced much with the better "nuevo" dancers where you dance? How does it go with them?

[larrynla]

OK, thanks for the clarification about the difference between
parallel/crossed feet and open/crossed relationship. Both concepts
have long been familiar to me, and I've come across them in other
dances. The terminology is a bit confusing, however. Why not
open/closed instead of open/crossed? The last pair of words are
clearly opposites.

What are the Spanish words the teachers use for these ideas? Are they
clearer (to Spanish speakers)?
________________________________ ocho-family figures
Let me expand on a different aspect of nuevo tango - something I
learned in a class by (I think) "Chicho" Frumboli the year after Salas
was here in L.A. This is under-turned and over-turned ochos.

Up to then, despite having maybe three dozen teachers face-to-face
(though most just for a few hours) and seen lots of videos, ochos just
meant two 180-degree turns after another that returned the dancer to
(usually her) starting position. Frumboli (or Salas?) explained that
there is a whole family of figures with pivots in them.

________________________________ under-turned ochos
Suppose instead of two 180-degree turns the man leads two 90-degree
turns. They produce a zig-zag figure that travels (usually) along the
line of dance. He called these under-turned ochos. So the man,
instead of standing in the same spot to lead the ocho, must travel with
the woman. If he leads her to step backward he has to step forward.
They mirror each other.

Or if he leads her to step forward, doing under-turned forward ochos,
he has to step backward. So he should first lead the two of them into
a half-turn to remain moving along the line of dance.

________________________________ over-turned ochos
Leading ochos where the woman does greater than 180-degree pivots
creates over-turned ochos. If her pivot is 270 degrees (a 3/4 turn) or
360 degrees (a full turn) the leader may only want her to do a single
pivoting step, not two the way one does the normal ocho. But such is
possible, just not easy. And the man is going to have to do some
movement from his starting spot as with zig-zags.

________________________________ sideways ochos
If the man leads his partner to pivot and step across behind (or in
front) of her supporting foot he can lead ochos to the left and right
instead of along (or opposite) the line of dance.

________________________________ grapevines/braids/cadenas
If you take the half a forward ocho and half a backward ocho and stick
them together (along with, perhaps, other individual steps), what do
you get?

Several possibilities. Among them is the cadena, which I first
encounted in a modern dance class under the name of the braid, and in a
jazz dance class as a grapevine. It might be of this pattern: side, to
the side crossing behind, side, to the side crossing in front, and
repeat. The man typically mirrors his partner. When she steps side
crossing behind he steps side crossing in front. Or he can duplicate
her step, so both are crossing behind at the same time.

Another possibility: a man can lead the cadena so the woman makes a box
or hexagon or octagon around the man while he stands in the same spot,
turning to remain facing her. This is the molinete (wheel), where he
is the hub and she the rim.

________________________________ colgadas
Further development of these ideas leads to the colgada, where the two
partners lean away from each other and the woman spins on one foot
while the man steps from side to side on each side of her supporting
foot. With her free foot she can do several kinds of adornos, most
often just a long kick back that leaves her free leg extended until he
stops the spin, maybe after just a half-turn or maybe after several
complete turns.

________________________________ Nuevo? Or not?
I don't know if all these possibilities can really be included under
the umbrella of "nuevo" tango. I seem to recall seeing a few of these
combinations before Naveira and Salas began widely teaching after "The
Tango Lesson" made them well known. But it was a revelation to me that
the combinations were all related.

And significant historically perhaps that it was teachers identified by
others (but not by themselves) as nuevo tango teachers who taught these
classes.

Larry de Los Angeles

[Angel HI]

OK, thanks for the clarification about the difference between parallel/crossed feet and open/crossed relationship. Why not open/closed instead of open/crossed?

________________________________ colgadas
Further development of these ideas leads to the colgada, where the two
partners lean away from each other and the woman spins on one foot
while the man steps from side to side on each side of her supporting
foot. With her free foot she can do several kinds of adornos, most
often just a long kick back that leaves her free leg extended until he
stops the spin, maybe after just a half-turn or maybe after several
complete turns.

________________________________ Nuevo? Or not?
I don't know if all these possibilities can really be included under
the umbrella of "nuevo" tango.
A few points here, Larry. I've just been reading for awhile, and being quiet, but your questions urged me to post. Firstly, it was Fabian and Gustavo who basically changed the terminology to open and crossed...open simply meaning side. We have taught together often, and, for ex., when describing the molinete, he will say, "back, open, front, open...". He never uses the term crossed in this case (or any turning movement) because he says that it leaves to question whether one means a front cross or a back cross.

Secondly, your descriptions of the ocho possibilities is quite good. Consider this in support of your post. We always teach that, in tango, ocho simply means swivel. The degree of swivel is whatever it intends to be. Draw an asterisk on the floor. If you were standing afront of the horizontal line, your descriptions of forward/under/overturned, back/over/underturned, and side ochos can be realized quite easily.

Thirdly, however, your description of colgada is limiting. Though it is developed from the ocho, as you posted, your description is only one type of colgada (mostly found in nuevo), rather than a definition of colgada as presented. Since you mentioned Fabian, you might know that he enjoys teaching the colgada from a simple arrepentida ending in salida in what is most commonly referred to as open embrace (w/o all of the side stepping and leg flying that you described which has nothing to do with colgada, really).

Lastly, all of the possiblities can be included in nuevo, but none of them need be included in, or under the umbrella of, nuevo.