Suggest a good Instructional DVD please..

[claws]

Hi everyone,

I love Tango music a lot and recently after watching so many Tango dance vidoes I too want to dance. But here at my place there no teacher.

So, I want to learn using instructional DVDs I watched few promo vidoes of DVDs on youtube, but I felt they utterly suck. Though I don't know how to dance tango, I could feel it while watching performances in 'So You Think You Can Dance' show and Ballroom competition videos.

Please suggest me a DVD which teaches proper technique. Is there any DVD by any Ballroom champions?

[bastet]

Hi everyone,

I love Tango music a lot and recently after watching so many Tango dance vidoes I too want to dance. But here at my place there no teacher.

So, I want to learn using instructional DVDs I watched few promo vidoes of DVDs on youtube, but I felt they utterly suck. Though I don't know how to dance tango, I could feel it while watching performances in 'So You Think You Can Dance' show and Ballroom competition videos.

Please suggest me a DVD which teaches proper technique. Is there any DVD by any Ballroom champions?

Well- I think first you might need to assess what it is you actually want to learn, becasue you've come to the Argentine tango forum.

If you are looking to learn socially danced Argentine tango (rather than stage tango) then I would suggest taking classes from someone reputable in the surrounding area if possible, who is trained specifically in Argentine tango (which is different and has different technical skills from Ballroom tango) and (very importantly IMO) one who goes out and dances socially at the milongas. (We have a couple of teachers in our town who "teach" AT but only teach patterns, and for whom it is not their main dance and also, not surprisingly, I don't ever see out at the local milongas...I don't think that's coincidence).

Barring any prospect of local instruction, I would find a festival that is giving beginner classes and maybe supplement that with a video, though I have not yet really seen any videos I have thought really gave a good overall picture of Argentine tango (but have only seen 3-4 before I just gave it up as a waste of $$ and there's plenty more than that out there.)

If you are looking for Ballroom tango, the Ballroom people on the forum may or may not have advice for you.

I'm just not sure I believe that any dance can truly be learned by watching videos...though I think they are a great addition to complement in person group learning....

Best of luck to you!

[newbie]

Here
ht tp://www.tejastango.com/video_resources.html
you can find reviews of many instructional videos.

[bastet]

Here
ht tp://www.tejastango.com/video_resources.html
you can find reviews of many instructional videos.


Yes- there is that list...unfortunately...there's several videos on there that I bought that I personally think aren't really all that good that received quite good ratings....hence why I alwayes recommend classes in addition to videos.

You might try Dario's Tango guide on Youtube (FREE!) first before you go spending money on videos....watching those will give you some idea of what it is like to try to learn from a video before spending money.

[Heather2007]

Hi everyone,

I love Tango music a lot and recently after watching so many Tango dance vidoes I too want to dance. But here at my place there no teacher.

So, I want to learn using instructional DVDs I watched few promo vidoes of DVDs on youtube, but I felt they utterly suck. Though I don't know how to dance tango, I could feel it while watching performances in 'So You Think You Can Dance' show and Ballroom competition videos.

Please suggest me a DVD which teaches proper technique. Is there any DVD by any Ballroom champions?

Cooking programmes - yes - but like I would never recommend any beginner to start a yoga programme from a DVD and instead get into a class in where she/he will get the hands-on adjustments needed esp. to prevent injury, I would say the same for tango - a film is too one dimensional to know if you are really doing something correctly. Plus, having a partner with whom to practice is also a must. What about a tango holiday or weekend workshop - to at least give you a headstart in the absolute basics.

[Me]

I say, in complete seriousness, why pay for instructional videos? So may people are giving it away for free.

Dario's Tango Guide is free, and available on iTunes and YouTube. Here is a link on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgRmqhIvZl8

Tangostudent has uploaded over 60 videos featuring instructional demos from teachers in the San Francisco area. Here is a link on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/user/tangostudent?ob=1




Please suggest me a DVD which teaches proper technique. Is there any DVD by any Ballroom champions?

The only one that comes to mind is by Corky Ballas, and I do not recommend it. As evidenced by the clip published, this video teaches some amazingly incorrect ideas. Here is a clip on Google video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4777681140493372572

I also do not recommend the DVIDA syllabus DVDs. I find the syllabus needlessly confusing, and the students who learn from it (and nothing else) are poorly balanced, cannot lead/follow, and are extremely frustrated and believe AT to be a complicated formula of memorized patterns. Here is a clip from Youtube where basic ochos are taught as a gold level pattern:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vdg1X2olFYg&feature=related

[newbie]

ht tp://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4777681140493372572

http://members.cox.net/andalyn/smLMAO.gif
Now this is the right video for a name-this-syle contest.

[bastet]

ht tp://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4777681140493372572

Ok where is the ROFLMAO smilie?
Now this is the right video for a name-this-syle contest.

that was just absolutely dreadful....hip and pelvic contact a la ballroom?...flamingoing of the lady's legs because she doesn't know what to do with her free leg, lack of collection of the feet....the list goes on and on...and that's what I mean....be very careful who you take classes from or what videos you buy...just because someone dances a certain dance (latin) doesn't mean they have the knowledge of the skills in another unrelated dance.

[bastet]

I say, in complete seriousness, why pay for instructional videos? So may people are giving it away for free.

Dario's Tango Guide is free, and available on iTunes and YouTube. Here is a link on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgRmqhIvZl8

Tangostudent has uploaded over 60 videos featuring instructional demos from teachers in the San Francisco area. Here is a link on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/user/tangostudent?ob=1




The only one that comes to mind is by Corky Ballas, and I do not recommend it. As evidenced by the clip published, this video teaches some amazingly incorrect ideas. Here is a clip on Google video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4777681140493372572

I also do not recommend the DVIDA syllabus DVDs. I find the syllabus needlessly confusing, and the students who learn from it (and nothing else) are poorly balanced, cannot lead/follow, and are extremely frustrated and believe AT to be a complicated formula of memorized patterns. Here is a clip from Youtube where basic ochos are taught as a gold level pattern:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vdg1X2olFYg&feature=related


Yeah- that DVIDA one could have gone such a different direction, I think...and I'm only saying it because they both seem a little frustrated by what they are teaching...My impression was they were probably forced to put it in to a syllabus pattern format...and then tried to undo that a little in the Improvisation video they did....which looked a little better than the others (though I don't have that one)...but that is only my impression.

I have several of these videos from when we first started becasue at the time there was a serious lack of good instruction in town and we were desperate...but we quickly saw where they were going and put them aside...probably should have got the improvisation video instead....

My only beef with Dairo's Tango is that he does use some of the same type of pattern oriented resolutions (always doing starts and endings of the basic which I don't like to see...too confining and gives the wrong impression about how to relate to your partner.

However, none that I have seen talk about or discuss connection with your partner as a true basis for movement in more than a passing way....maybe someone who has seen Daniel Trenners vids can tell us if he spends any time on it?

[claws]

Hi again,

I didn't know there are so many styles of tango:



Tango Argentino
Tango Oriental (uruguayo)
Tango Canyengue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_Tango)
Tango Liso
Tango Salon
Tango Orillero
Tango Milonguero (Tango Apilado)
Tango Nuevo
Show Tango (also known as Fantasia)
Ballroom Tango (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tango_%28ballroom%29)
Finnish Tango (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_tango)



I'm inspired by http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=_cDf65VaYSE , so Its the international style ballroom tango I want to dance. Isn't this dance awesome? slow & long steps but suddenly quick&instantaneous movements, stylish & passionate. These are the things that impressed me. But none of instructional videos have them, that's what is disappointing. Does Argentine Tango also have these?
Can any one point me to best Argentine Tango performance? The stage Argentine Tango and the social Argentine tango, are they different?
The only one that comes to mind is by Corky Ballas, and I do not recommend it. As evidenced by the clip published, this video teaches some amazingly incorrect ideas.:O surprised!! How could a former latin dance champion teach incorrect technique.??

[bastet]

Hi again,

I didn't know there are so many styles of tango:



Tango Argentino
Tango Oriental (uruguayo)
Tango Canyengue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_Tango)
Tango Liso
Tango Salon
Tango Orillero
Tango Milonguero (Tango Apilado)
Tango Nuevo
Show Tango (also known as Fantasia)
Ballroom Tango (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tango_%28ballroom%29)
Finnish Tango (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_tango)


I'm inspired by http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=_cDf65VaYSE , so Its the international style ballroom tango I want to dance. Isn't this dance awesome? slow & long steps but suddenly quick&instantaneous movements, stylish & passionate. These are the things that impressed me. But none of instructional videos have them, that's what is disappointing. Does Argentine Tango also have these?

:O surprised!! How could a former latin dance champion teach incorrect technique.??

He's teaching technique that is incorrect for Argentine tango. I can't say anything about how correct his technique is when applied to the dance he dances...latin...latin and AT don't use the same technques and applying on to dance the other doesn't usually lead to good results...

[claws]

OK. To put myself more clearly, (I don't know which style it comes into) The Tango walk is too stylish. toes pointing, sliding along the floor and importantly taking long steps.

I saw the Dario's 1st video. In the beginning of the video, there was a performance (in black and white, may be from an old movie) that was also, stylish and has all those things I'm interested in. What style is it? stage argentine tango or social one?

So, these are my interests please tell me what is the style best suits these.

[bastet]

OK. To put myself more clearly, (I don't know which style it comes into) The Tango walk is too stylish. toes pointing, sliding along the floor and importantly taking long steps.

I saw the Dario's 1st video. In the beginning of the video, there was a performance (in black and white, may be from an old movie) that was also, stylish and has all those things I'm interested in. What style is it? stage argentine tango or social one?

So, these are my interests please tell me what is the style best suits these.

From what I can tell, what Dario is doing at the beginning is mostly performance (Stage) tango...you wouldn't generally have enough room at most social places to dance in that way and it takes years of work to learn that stuff...and if you have a good teacher then you should be learning the social aspect first before moving on the those more difficult concepts IMO. It's all tango...but part of what distinguishes social tango is that you have this other group of entities to think about (the other couples and also the group who is dancing on the floor as a whole to consider)...and a lot of the movements that are used in stage tango generally don't work in a crowded room....Stage tango has ochos...social tango has ochos....stage tango has lifts....in social tango lifting is discouraged....stage tango has ganchos (leg hooks)..social tango...sometimes they are used but tend to be kept discreet....etc etc...stage tango has drops, ariel movements and other things that just aren't done on a crowded floor plus ballet concepts as well.

Many milongas (tango dance parties) are in very crowded spaces or very small spaces and so large movement that could injure yourself, partner or others is discouraged....sometimes (and I have seen this) to the point that someone will take a disespectful person aside to tell them they are creating havoc on the floor for others.

All those types of tango you saw listed (Canyengue- a very old style from the early 1900's, Tanog Liso (simple tango- the way tango was danced in the 20's- probably a precursor to the modern Salon style...and so forth...are all part of Argentine tango). The only ones that aren't are ballroom and Finnish (whihc I think is more like ballroom tango than Argentine). I have no idea what Tango Oriental refers to...

[Zoopsia59]

I saw the Dario's 1st video. In the beginning of the video, there was a performance (in black and white, may be from an old movie) that was also, stylish and has all those things I'm interested in. What style is it? stage argentine tango or social one?
.

The black and white segment at the beginning of Dario's instruction videos are all of Dario and Claire themselves. The tango they are doing in these segments in the early videos is very much a performance style of tango not suited to social dancing.

You can certainly learn stage tango (aka Fantasia) but you would do better to learn the proper social form first. You will have limited opportunities to practice stage tango unless you have a space and a partner to practice on your own. Most of that stuff can't be done at a social dance, so what would you do with it if you aren't a performer? And how would you get to the level of being a performer without learning how to dance socially and becoming known?

Stage tango moves are fun, but they are not for beginners and not very useful for the average tango dancer.

[bastet]

The black and white segment at the beginning of Dario's instruction videos are all of Dario and Claire themselves. The tango they are doing in these segments in the early videos is very much a performance style of tango not suited to social dancing.

You can certainly learn stage tango (aka Fantasia) but you would do better to learn the proper social form first. You will have limited opportunities to practice stage tango unless you have a space and a partner to practice on your own. Most of that stuff can't be done at a social dance, so what would you do with it if you aren't a performer? And how would you get to the level of being a performer without learning how to dance socially and becoming known?

Stage tango moves are fun, but they are not for beginners and not very useful for the average tango dancer.


Screwdriver! 9Isn't that what you say when you've said the same thing at the same time???...I'm so old!....) :rolleyes:

[claws]

The black and white segment at the beginning of Dario's instruction videos are all of Dario and Claire themselves. The tango they are doing in these segments in the early videos is very much a performance style of tango not suited to social dancing.

You can certainly learn stage tango (aka Fantasia) but you would do better to learn the proper social form first. You will have limited opportunities to practice stage tango unless you have a space and a partner to practice on your own. Most of that stuff can't be done at a social dance, so what would you do with it if you aren't a performer? And how would you get to the level of being a performer without learning how to dance socially and becoming known?

Stage tango moves are fun, but they are not for beginners and not very useful for the average tango dancer.

I see.. So, the Tango that is taught in Dario's guide, is it Stage one or social one?

To be frank, IMO Social dancing is lame compared to Fantasia. I wan't to learn Fantasia (and I'm a stage performer and wanted to be a) and more over in India we are never going to have any kind of Tango dance parties.

I would like to perform it. :)
So, now how is this Argentino Stage dance different from International Style Standard Tango? Anyway, Now can one please suggest good DVD for this AT (Fantasia).

[Zoopsia59]

I see.. So, the Tango that is taught in Dario's guide, is it Stage one or social one?

.

Wouldn't it make more sense to just watch the videos and see whether you like what's shown than to worry about which it is?

But anyway, I think you are going to have trouble finding INSTRUCTIONAL videos of some of the more complicated stage moves. For one thing, a fancy move is often choreographed. (such as the turning lift in the intro to Dario's videos where Claire changes legs in mid lift.. that's definitely NOT a lead and follow type move!)

People invent these cool moves through trial and error and they aren't eager to help another performer use them. They put together their routines through their own hard work and watching hundreds (or thousands) of hours of tango dancing in addition to doing that much dancing themselves. No one is going to create a video of "Here are all the best show stopping flashy moves that you can fashion into a 'tango' performance routine without learning any tango"

Any instruction for advanced stage moves is going to ASSUME a good background in basic technique.. which you're have to get by doing the stuff you call "lame". (Can't wait to see the posts in response to THAT comment by the way) you don't perform in Swan Lake without doing hours and hours of plie' and you don't become a good tango performer without actually learning basics of tango.

My thinking is that if you came here looking for help in shooting to the top of the tango heap without doing the hard work that the rest of us are putting in to get there, you aren't going to get much in the way of positive reinforcment here. The performers we tend to respect are all excellent social dancers.

If you are a performer already, you can just watch a lot of tango performance videos and figure out how to incorportate some of those falshy things into whatever you are already performing. If you want to be a TANGO dancer, you have to learn social tango or your performance is just "paint by numbers".

You are reminding me of skaters who just want to get out there and do big jumps without learning how to stroke cleanly or do any footwork.

But take heart... MANY people were drawn to tango because they wanted to learn the fancy stuff... we all just had to take a deep breath, be patient and learn the "lame" stuff first. And we're damn glad we did (and along the way, we realized that its actually just as rewarding, beautiful and DIFFICULT as the flashy stuff)

[claws]

Any instruction for advanced stage moves is going to ASSUME a good background in basic technique.. which you're have to get by doing the stuff you call "lame".

But take heart... MANY people were drawn to tango because they wanted to learn the fancy stuff... we all just had to take a deep breath, be patient and learn the "lame" stuff first. And we're damn glad we did (and along the

O.K firstly here I didn't mean to offend any style of dancing, what I was trying to say was the Fantasia AT looks far far better than social dancing, its like instead of saying 100 is greater than 10 I said, 10 is very much less than 100 and secondly I'm a dumb ass who doesn't know anything about Tango so I really am no one to tag any style as "lame".

My sincere apologies if my words meant otherway.
All I mean is Fantasia looks more fancy and attractive than social dancing. As I told already, its those performances that dragged my interest to Tango dancing.

Wouldn't it make more sense to just watch the videos and see whether you like what's shown than to worry about which it is?Yeah, it does. I just asked out of curiosity. But you didn't answered it :P

[Angel HI]

Its the international style ballroom tango I want to dance. Isn't this dance awesome? slow & long steps but suddenly quick&instantaneous movements, stylish & passionate.
Not to take anything away from your enthusiasm, the int'l style is the one of the major 3 that is least based on tango. Though, I began w/ this style for many years, I prefer AT.

Does Argentine Tango also have these?
It is my humble opinion that if one wishes to be a good dancer, one must know 3 things; tango, amer. bolero, and int'l silver fox.
Can any one point me to best Argentine Tango performance?
A completely impossible request. There are several different styles each with its own great performance. Find or purchase "Tango Argentino" and/or "Forever Tango" (still the best). "Tango Fire" is a good third choice.
The stage Argentine Tango and the social Argentine tango, are they different?
Furthering the topic of instructional vids, there is no substitute for class/coach training. If that is not an option, I would recommend http://www.cosmotango.com/TDVideos.htm .This series of 3 DVDs by 2 of the most respected persons alive are the best for breaking down the basics. of course, there are others. I will PM you with several options re vid samples, teaching vids, and lessons.

On a side note...thanks, Zoops, for the PM.

[Ampster]

ht tp://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4777681140493372572

http://members.cox.net/andalyn/smLMAO.gif
Now this is the right video for a name-this-syle contest.

Champion or not, that was silly :nope:

[Ampster]

Welcome claws!


So, I want to learn using instructional DVDs I watched few promo vidoes of DVDs on youtube, but I felt they utterly suck.

Why? Which videos were you watching? If its the Argentine Tango were passionate about, you just said it sucks...



Though I don't know how to dance tango, I could feel it while watching performances in 'So You Think You Can Dance' show and Ballroom competition videos.

FYI, if you follow the discussions on this AT forum of previous seasons of Argentine Tango done in "So you think you can dance," Their renditions of Argentine Tango is all show and not very good, sometimes silly, sometimes just bad. The technique is all wrong, and is a bad representation of AT.

Also, Argentine Tango is the original tango. Ballroom Tango, both American and International are very, very different things. They should not be confused.



Please suggest me a DVD which teaches proper technique. Is there any DVD by any Ballroom champions?

This series by Fabian Salas (who is one of the best Argentine Tango dancers) has a very good basic technique instruction DVD's

The Tango Fundamentals - Volume 1: Basic Elements (http://www.amazon.com/Tango-Fundamentals-Basic-Elements/dp/0970648553/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1227081434&sr=1-2), The Tango Fundamentals - Volume 2: Basic Caminadas (http://www.amazon.com/Tango-Fundamentals-Basic-Caminadas/dp/0970648561/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1227081580&sr=1-1), The Tango Fundamentals - Volume 3: Basic Giros (http://www.amazon.com/Tango-Fundamentals-Basic-Giros/dp/097064857X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1227081619&sr=1-3)

I would steer away from Argentine Tango videos by "Ballroom Champions." Most of the ones I've seen have wrong technique, and they just don't look right. They are best suited to stick with ballroom. This previous example is a particularly bad, bad, bad one. I'm sorry (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4777681140493372572)





I'm inspired by http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=_cDf65VaYSE , so Its the international style ballroom tango I want to dance. Isn't this dance awesome? slow & long steps but suddenly quick&instantaneous movements, stylish & passionate. These are the things that impressed me.

This is not even Argentine Tango. This is International Ballroom Tango. It has almost nothing to do with the original tango. It is also geard towards competition, and is socially un-danceable.

The music is "La Cumparsita," but its in ballroom time. Something you would never play in a social dance environment as the arrangement is horrible for dancing real tango.


O.K firstly here I didn't mean to offend any style of dancing, what I was trying to say was the Fantasia AT looks far far better than social dancing, its like instead of saying 100 is greater than 10 I said, 10 is very much less than 100 and secondly I'm a dumb ass who doesn't know anything about Tango so I really am no one to tag any style as "lame".

My sincere apologies if my words meant otherway.
All I mean is Fantasia looks more fancy and attractive than social dancing. As I told already, its those performances that dragged my interest to Tango dancing.
:P

Ok, fine. No offense taken. Here is Miriam Larici, one of the best Tangueras in the world and a friend of mine. She is doing one of her simpler and more sedate stage routines. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ5UEJVT9W0) Here she is again as performing her opening number for "Forever Tango" for the Boston pops orchestra. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkmMnYz17hU) Another version of Stage Tango, this time by the late Carlos Gavito. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGasIsla0gM)

A note about stage tango. These are professional, who have mastered their basic technique, and have gotten to this level from years of practice. Their numbers are choreographed, based on the rules and parameters of Argentine Tango.

[Angel HI]

This is not even Argentine Tango. This is International Ballroom Tango. It has almost nothing to do with the original tango. It is also geard towards competition, and is socially un-danceable.

The music is "La Cumparsita," but its in ballroom time. Something you would never play in a social dance environment as the arrangement is horrible for dancing real tango.
In all fairness to the OP, if he likes the BR (which he said that he did), he should not be discouraged to dance it. Also, you mentioned the music. Claws, please note the difference/s in the music of the BR and the AT. The music of BR is actually based on german marches (you can hear the barump, barump, barump - bump - bump) throughout. The AT is argentine, and, in my opinion, much more diversified, varying, and exciting.
Here is Miriam Larici, one of the best Tangueras in the world ...performing her opening number for "Forever Tango" for the Boston pops orchestra. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkmMnYz17hU)

Clips of Miriam's Bandoneon dance just never gets old! Man!

[newbie]

Anyway, Now can one please suggest good DVD for this AT (Fantasia).

On the cover of the DVD named "Gisela Galeassi and Gaspar Godoy, Tango Lessons with the World's Champions", they say that besides the basics they're also teaching some stage tango. And yes, they're world champions if that's what you're looking for.

I have not bought the DVD so I cannot say how good it is.

[Me]

Which videos were you watching? If its the Argentine Tango were passionate about, you just said it sucks...

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought claws was referring to the promos of instructional DVDs on youtube, and not to the actual dance itself...?


This series by Fabian Salas (who is one of the best Argentine Tango dancers) has a very good basic technique instruction DVD's

The Tango Fundamentals - Volume 1: Basic Elements (http://www.amazon.com/Tango-Fundamentals-Basic-Elements/dp/0970648553/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1227081434&sr=1-2), The Tango Fundamentals - Volume 2: Basic Caminadas (http://www.amazon.com/Tango-Fundamentals-Basic-Caminadas/dp/0970648561/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1227081580&sr=1-1), The Tango Fundamentals - Volume 3: Basic Giros (http://www.amazon.com/Tango-Fundamentals-Basic-Giros/dp/097064857X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1227081619&sr=1-3)

I absolutely agree! This set is a real treasure. I purchased it for my parents one Christmas and as they progress and advance in tango, they still learn so much from reviewing these DVDs. Your links are great because it is a great deal to buy all three from Amazon and get the free shipping.

claws if you want a small preview, somebody uploaded a clip from these videos on youtube, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8Mz8V8jcfU

This previous example is a particularly bad, bad, bad one. I'm sorry (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4777681140493372572)

It is pretty clear to me that his partner has had little or no AT at all, and is using dancesport technique for her tango, which of course is not correct, but at least what she is dancing is considered correct somewhere. Corky makes the classic beginner mistake of placing his weight back into his heels while poking his feet forward and pulling the lady over on top. If his lack of expertise is not evidenced in his actual dancing, it is certainly evidenced in his voice-over explanation of the basic walk:

"Invite the lady in and take the low closed hold. As you can see, the lady is off to my right side. We walk, keeping the hands very soft around the lady's body as I walk, keeping strong hip contact in this low closed hold, and just feeling comfortable with moving forward with the lady in this low closed hold."

:???:

[pkh.tango]

hi claws...

i've been studying and dancing tango for more than a few years now and have collected several instructional DVDs along the way. while videos cannot substitute for a diverse range of partners and a teacher giving you direct feedback, there is a new instructional DVD from the outstanding maestra Luciana Valle that i would highly recommend. since i'm an experienced dancer i'm not sure how useful it is for beginners. however, i shared this DVD with an interested colleague who never danced tango before... and even she felt Luciana's coverage of basic technique and principles was excellent and crystal clear. Luciana covers all the common errors.. this DVD is packed, wastes no time with slow-motion clips, Luciana never repeats herself, she makes points that are demonstrated, and then she moves on. there are no sequences of step patterns to memorize... just important fundamentals. if you master all of these (e.g. spiral, upper/lower dissociation), you will be on a faster track to learning very advanced moves (the overturned movements - back sacadas, 4th sacada, piernazos and other free leg moves).

have any others seen this DVD... would you agree or disagree with me?

[Angel HI]

....there is a new instructional DVD from the outstanding maestra Luciana Valle that i would highly recommend. have any others seen this DVD... would you agree or disagree with me?
I have, and I would agree. But, again, this is closed AT only...not BR...not int'l. Claws should be aware of this.

Your best comment, though, is.....
....while videos cannot substitute for a diverse range of partners and a teacher giving you direct feedback.....
Welcome, again, to the DF.

[bastet]

hi claws...

i've been studying and dancing tango for more than a few years now and have collected several instructional DVDs along the way. while videos cannot substitute for a diverse range of partners and a teacher giving you direct feedback, there is a new instructional DVD from the outstanding maestra Luciana Valle that i would highly recommend. since i'm an experienced dancer i'm not sure how useful it is for beginners. however, i shared this DVD with an interested colleague who never danced tango before... and even she felt Luciana's coverage of basic technique and principles was excellent and crystal clear. Luciana covers all the common errors.. this DVD is packed, wastes no time with slow-motion clips, Luciana never repeats herself, she makes points that are demonstrated, and then she moves on. there are no sequences of step patterns to memorize... just important fundamentals. if you master all of these (e.g. spiral, upper/lower dissociation), you will be on a faster track to learning very advanced moves (the overturned movements - back sacadas, 4th sacada, piernazos and other free leg moves).

have any others seen this DVD... would you agree or disagree with me?

No I haven't, but I love Luciana...where can you get it? I'm sure it'd be good just to have for reminders! Feel free to PM me somebody...

[Captain Jep]

Oops ! I missed there were several pages on this comment - which say everything I wanted to say!

Question : for us AT only dancers, are there any good bits to the ballroom version??!

[Angel HI]

Question : for us AT only dancers, are there any good bits to the ballroom version??!
:confused: Forgive my densities....whatever do you mean....good bits...of what?

[Captain Jep]

:confused: Forgive my densities....whatever do you mean....good bits...of what?

:) ie Why would I want to do ballroom tango once I have experienced the Argentine Tango ? Where's the connection where's the conversation where's the fun?? (please - one flame at a time..)

[newbie]

:) ie Why would I want to do ballroom tango once I have experienced the Argentine Tango ? Where's the connection where's the conversation where's the fun?? (please - one flame at a time..)

Well you asked for flames, here it goes.
Ballroomers are more versatile. In a BR social event, tango is one dance among one dozen, you'll dance very different things. While in A.T you're stuck with tango. And yes, with milonga, but you get the point. Also you can enjoy your dance more, because there are no navigational issues, the other couples move in a very predictable way, unlike the brownian A.T And there is less lead/follow, you can chat with your partner while dancing, you're not alone in your inner world.

Want more?
If A.T was more enjoyable, the student drop rate in classes would be lower than BR's.

[Zoopsia59]

If A.T was more enjoyable, the student drop rate in classes would be lower than BR's.

I have to quibble a little with this...

I don't think the drop rate is so high because AT is inherently less enjoyable to dance.. I think its because AT is a more difficult dance and has a steeper learning curve than most ballroom dances.

The drop out rate is high in the beginning but those who stick with it past the painful early days are as likely as ballroom dancers to keep going. Maybe even more so because they advance in a single dance rather than being stuck sitting out all the dances they haven't learned yet (at a ballroom event). If you are trying to learn ballroom, yes, you have more variety, but on the other hand, it takes longer to reach a level of profficiency if you have multiple dances to learn.

I also think there is less opportunity to go out dancing for practice. When a newbie does find a milonga, the navigational issues plus the showoff-y way some people dance and the cliquish attitudes are intimidating.

So getting people to stick with it and not get scared off for any numner of reasons is hard in the beginning. But I think the drop rate certainly doesn't indicate that Ballroom is somehow more enjoyable that AT to dance once you actually CAN dance it. It might be more enjoyable to LEARN however.

[newbie]

:) ie Why would I want to do ballroom tango once I have experienced the Argentine Tango ? Where's the connection where's the conversation where's the fun?? (please - one flame at a time..)

Oh, and by taking up BR tango you would learn a *dance*. You know, a dance, with dance moves, the legs and arms and body doing something, not your quasistatic walk-and-pause. But face it, your question is hypothetical isn't it, you asked but you would be unable to dance BR tango, people switch to A.T when their body stops being able to dance.

If you want more flames just ask, it's a BR forum yunno.

[Zoopsia59]

people switch to A.T when their body stops being able to dance..

Uh, oh.....

ducking to avoid any flying shrappnel...

[Zoopsia59]

it's a BR forum yunno.

Maybe they should change the name to "BallroomDance Forum"? But then where will the Country-Western and Salsa people go?

[Steve Pastor]

I'd say the demands for enjoying AT are quite high. But lots of people seem to get by, and enjoy themselves (I guess) at a fairly moderate level of skill: dancing patterns everybody knows, or only having a limited number of things you can do, certainly facilitates things. (Always dancing the molinete the same way, as an example) And, if your goals are to be physically active, be social, and find a partner, hey!
Same thing happens in country western. There we not only have the line dances where you don't need a partner, we also have partner pattern dances. You have a partner, but the dance follows the same pattern ever time, and everyone is (supposed to be) doing the same thing at the same time. Very little lead/follow involved. (Unless you get bored and start doing variations, and asking your partner to do variations within the overall pattern. A very good friend and good partner USED to say, "We haven't practiced this!. Now she says, "I just want to enjoy this dance". She's good enough to get what I'm asking her to do and if she would just follow the lead, follow her body and her momentum, she wouldn't have to THINK about it. I think I'm moving her along.)
Next you have "ballroom", (without the variations) the way it is usually taught.
If you've missing the point that the "conversation" in AT is not verbal...

[Steve Pastor]

Just googled Lucianna and found her videos, and who was that man in the intro? Was it..?
first vid at the top http://www.lucianavalle.com/videos/index.htm
Why yes, it's Alex .
Lu is one of the most musical of the instructors who come through Portland. After a class on what we would all call "nuevo", and leading one of our local, and a favorite of mine, Meagan Pingree in a demo, in which EVERYTHING was in the music, I asked her if she could teach all of the dancers in Portland to be as musical. She laughed, of course.

[Captain Jep]

Oh, and by taking up BR tango you would learn a *dance*. You know, a dance, with dance moves, the legs and arms and body doing something, not your quasistatic walk-and-pause. But face it, your question is hypothetical isn't it, you asked but you would be unable to dance BR tango, people switch to A.T when their body stops being able to dance.

If you want more flames just ask, it's a BR forum yunno.

Well you made me laugh so I wont take offence - "people switch to A.T. when their body stops being able to dance" - whats the shorthand for "collapsed on the floor laughing" ?

I dont think you've really answered the question though. I dont dispute ballroom tango's one dance among many - I just want to understand what is the attraction to it?

One of the reasons I took up AT was to get away from just doing the moves, I wanted a conversation with my partner. And to be honest when you have a conversation you dont talk all the time do you? Neither should you feel the need to dance.

Whenever I see the ballroom version performed it looks like they need a runway before they start dancing - "Number 10 you are cleared for take off.. " If I wanted to do that I wouldnt be dancing AT!

[Angel HI]

I believe Newbie to be so far off of the mark, that I am uncertain if he were even serious.
Ballroomers are more versatile.
One of the biggest problems w/ BR is that it is not versatile. This is not solely the fault of the dancer, however. Rather than syllabi being lists of fundamentals/exercizes, they have been used as definitions of dance. Example? A tango is not walk-walk-step-side-close. Yet, you have no idea how many times I have asked the question, and received this answer.

In a BR social event, tango is one dance among one dozen, you'll dance very different things. While in A.T you're stuck with tango. And yes, with milonga, but you get the point.
Untrue. Just as, say, Lindy is but one of a family of related dances, AT is but the same. Not to mention that Captain is speaking specifically of tango, regardless, there is: 3 main styles of AT, 2 main styles of milonga (relative to fox/quickstep), 2 main styles of vals (relative to amer waltz/vienesse), canyengue (equitable to swing [w/o the UATs]), and chacarera (relative to freestyle). Further, you should know that most argentines love amer. swing, salsa, and bolero (what we call int'l rumba).

Also you can enjoy your dance more, because there are no navigational issues, the other couples move in a very predictable way, unlike the brownian A.T
I simply don't understand this, at all. AT couples move very predictably around the LOD. In fact, it is so predictable, that in some places in argentina, it is considered bad form to dance around the couple in front of you.

And there is less lead/follow, you can chat with your partner while dancing, you're not alone in your inner world.
Though many afficionados say that one shouldn't, of course, many do chat with their partners while dancing. The very 'embrace' of the AT lends itself more to being able to chat than the stricter/more rigid 'frame' of the amer/int'l.

Oh, and by taking up BR tango you would learn a *dance*. You know, a dance, with dance moves, the legs and arms and body doing something, not your quasistatic walk-and-pause.
I addressed this above. Tango is not defined by the "moves" printed on a syllabus. It is a dance whether amer, int'l, or AT. By definition, the legs/arms/body are doing something. For many years, I have sort of made it my personal quest, as a tango/latin specialist, to rid the world of the marched, overly stiffened, opposing, mad-faced, tango on crack style that is so prevalently taught. I have shown many how to, not only better dance an amer/int'l tango by using AT principles (not style/steps), and how to, similarly, better other dances, as well. Find someone likewise to help you broaden your perceptions, should you so desire. You'll like it.

[Heather2007]

[quote=Zoopsia59;632354]I have to quibble a little with this...

I don't think the drop rate is so high because AT is inherently less enjoyable to dance..[quote]

Agree - although I would say that many people (here anyway in showey-off London) people enter the world of AT only to soon discover that the Clash of the Titans has nothing on the Clash of the Argentine Tango Dancers' Egos and so, quit. I received emails this week from two people I know very well - sadly one is giving up altogether (yep, she's a teacher and has been dancing many years and sees that the climate here has changed over the years and the more commercial it gets here, the "more ugly it becomes") the other was so upset by what she sees and hears and has experienced at one particular milonga that she is considering giving up. I managed to change her mind suggesting a wonderful people-friendly place I sometimes go to on a Sunday. I have never done any salsa but I am told time and time again, that the world of Salsa is "far more fun" and the people "happier" etc. Coming from the world of fashion-modelling then onto choreographing theatre dancework I am used to the egomaniacs and how to handle them, for others, not so easy and so....they quit. Sadly.

[Steve Pastor]

Now, Heather writes much truth about AT. I experienced the same thing when I started. It's the big showy moves that attract people. Then, some of us find the other AT. The AT of the Argentine milonga, the socializing, the "Old World" like music without electric guitars and pounding insistent percussion. The AT of a room full of people dancing peacefully not only as a group, but as individual couples intently "listening" and responding to the movement of each other's bodies and the music.
Oh, wait, that last bit doesn't happen too often.
But it does sometimes. And all of the annoying people who back up or into the line of dance, throw big boleos and scare the you know what out of people who have been kicked, or elbowed while dancing AT (which would be just about all of us) are forgotten for a while.
There were many times I almost quit. But I love this dance, and I loved the challenge it presented.
It's interesting to note that Heather, too, has found a Sunday event that is people friendly. I gave up on the milonga, because of some of the things that have already been mentioned, but also because of the the attitude that it's OK to show up "unprepared". How prepared should you be? Here in the US the prevaling thought seems to be "not very".
So, is that a bit of "elitism"? I guess.
Well, now I'm wandering...

[Steve Pastor]

So, Angel, do you completely dismiss the early styles of Argentine Tango that were the basis for the ballroom style?
Same with music. Some of (well probably lots of) the old, pre Golden Age tangos sound like, or are, similar to the music used in ballroom styles.
???

[Captain Jep]

Now, Heather writes much truth about AT. I experienced the same thing when I started. It's the big showy moves that attract people. Then, some of us find the other AT. The AT of the Argentine milonga, the socializing, the "Old World" like music without electric guitars and pounding insistent percussion. The AT of a room full of people dancing peacefully not only as a group, but as individual couples intently "listening" and responding to the movement of each other's bodies and the music.
Oh, wait, that last bit doesn't happen too often.
But it does sometimes. And all of the annoying people who back up or into the line of dance, throw big boleos and scare the you know what out of people who have been kicked, or elbowed while dancing AT (which would be just about all of us) are forgotten for a while.
There were many times I almost quit. But I love this dance, and I loved the challenge it presented.
It's interesting to note that Heather, too, has found a Sunday event that is people friendly. I gave up on the milonga, because of some of the things that have already been mentioned, but also because of the the attitude that it's OK to show up "unprepared". How prepared should you be? Here in the US the prevaling thought seems to be "not very".
So, is that a bit of "elitism"? I guess.
Well, now I'm wandering...

What do you mean by "unprepared"? do you mean, two left feet and no technique?

Heather, I think all of us who have lived in or around London have felt the same. But Im not sure doing salsa by itself is going to be the answer. Seems to me there are just as many egos and problems there too.

Some of the things I prefer about tango! :

- In salsa you seem to be permanently "on probation". Most of the time you will dance one or two dances max with the same partner (unless you're very good). With tango you have three or four dances. And when it's good you can at least remember what was so delicious about it - rather than it being lost in a whirlwind of motion. :car:

- Many of the salsa classes feel like cattle markets. You spend a minute with a partner and then move on. With AT (most of the time!) you do get to have a dance or at least get familiar with your partner ...

- Salsa is still mostly about learning patterns/moves. Yes that's fun. Especially for the guys! But there is a tendency to do that at the expense of mastering the real basics ie Cuban body motion and having a solid "connection". With tango by contrast it's all about the basics ... ;)

(I could write an essay about this - but I'll stop there!)

[Angel HI]

So, Angel, do you completely dismiss the early styles of Argentine Tango that were the basis for the ballroom style?
Same with music?
Pretty much. Firstly, that music style sucks. The genre has evolved, thank God, and no one outside of very localized argentines dances it any longer. The germanic marches that birthed the euro tango, and have become the standard in amer., have majorly contributed to the overly danced tech/style of amer vs AT.
Seems to me there are just as many egos and problems there too. .... you seem to be permanently "on probation". Most of the time you will dance one or two dances max with the same partner (unless you're very good). With tango you have three or four dances. And when it's good you can at least remember what was so delicious about it -
Interesting view. IMO, it is exactly this way in many amer AT markets. Several argentines and I have discussed this. They say that although there are varying personalities everywhere (people are people), that these attitudes aren't as prevelant in BsAs, for ex., b/c tango is such an ingrained thing there. But, here (speaking of the U.S. just b/c that's where I am), it's different, and for a number of reasons. These include: the incessant amer. need to be better than everyone/in everything/all the time; and, the fact that AT was intentionally presented as difficult so to add to its mystique. The problem is that now many persons who feel that they have overcome some elitist level of difficulty seem to put others on permanent probationary status, and only dance amongst themselves, and/or w/ a handdful of 'worthy' (accomplished) persons.

- Salsa is still mostly about learning patterns/moves. But there is a tendency to do that at the expense of mastering the real basics ...
Again, interesting b/c salsa, WCS, AT, shag, and a couple of others are all about improv. True, though, that the fundementals get lost often, and, of course, everything is better w/ good basics.

[Steve Pastor]

It is a dance whether amer, int'l, or AT. By definition, the legs/arms/body are doing something. For many years, I have sort of made it my personal quest, as a tango/latin specialist, to rid the world of the marched, overly stiffened, opposing, mad-faced, tango on crack style that is so prevalently taught.

I would comment that deciding you don't like "early tango", whether the music or the dance, (if the music is stiff and march like, which I don't question, then the dance would/should be similar) is one thing, I would just hope that you explain it in a way that allows that at one time it WAS Argentine Tango.

[Angel HI]

I would just hope that you explain it in a way that allows that at one time it WAS Argentine Tango.
Perhaps, the music, yes. But never did the argentine's popularize the stiff styling that we see today. That, I am ashamed to say, came from ...*ahem*...us...the french. :confused: Now, though, it is fair to say that the argentines did dance a similar styling (amongst others) after the return of tango to Argentina. And, I did reference the very localized argentines who still dance it. But, it was never revered by the argentines as argentine.

[bastet]

Perhaps, the music, yes. But never did the argentine's popularize the stiff styling that we see today. That, I am ashamed to say, came from ...*ahem*...us...the french. :confused: Now, though, it is fair to say that the argentines did dance a similar styling (amongst others) after the return of tango to Argentina. And, I did reference the very localized argentines who still dance it. But, it was never revered by the argentines as argentine.

All this part of the conversation is very interesting to me, and when y'all started discussing it, I was reminded of that video a few weeks ago we were discussing that had El Cahcafex dancing. Some (ok a lot...to me) of the background dancers looked like they were doing some sort of very prototype ballroomy movements and I am wondering if this is what you are referring to?

[Captain Jep]

Interesting view. IMO, it is exactly this way in many amer AT markets. Several argentines and I have discussed this. They say that although there are varying personalities everywhere (people are people), that these attitudes aren't as prevelant in BsAs, for ex., b/c tango is such an ingrained thing there. But, here (speaking of the U.S. just b/c that's where I am), it's different, and for a number of reasons. These include: the incessant amer. need to be better than everyone/in everything/all the time; and, the fact that AT was intentionally presented as difficult so to add to its mystique. The problem is that now many persons who feel that they have overcome some elitist level of difficulty seem to put others on permanent probationary status, and only dance amongst themselves, and/or w/ a handdful of 'worthy' (accomplished) persons.



Is this just a big city phenomenon in the States? Or does it prevail in the smaller dance communities also? We get it here in London but I dont think anywhere else.

[bastet]

Is this just a big city phenomenon in the States? Or does it prevail in the smaller dance communities also? We get it here in London but I dont think anywhere else.

I think it prevails in quite a few communities. We certainly don't have a large community where I am at, but I think it runs fairly rampant here in my area. Worse at some festivals than others, or some milongas than others...but certainly present.

[bordertangoman]

All this part of the conversation is very interesting to me, and when y'all started discussing it, I was reminded of that video a few weeks ago we were discussing that had El Cahcafex dancing. Some (ok a lot...to me) of the background dancers looked like they were doing some sort of very prototype ballroomy movements and I am wondering if this is what you are referring to?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5Yv9V-3APpc

this?

watch for him kicking her a** at about00.32

[opendoor]

.. watch .. 00.32

hi BTM, need some help: there is only a neat conversation at 0.32

[Ampster]

All this part of the conversation is very interesting to me, and when y'all started discussing it, I was reminded of that video a few weeks ago we were discussing that had El Cahcafex dancing. Some (ok a lot...to me) of the background dancers looked like they were doing some sort of very prototype ballroomy movements and I am wondering if this is what you are referring to?

If I remember my AT history, the people in the background who are using the outstreched stiff arms was something the French introduced in France, when AT was all the rage. Then some of that technique got back to Buenos Aires through immigrant migration. I think it died there too.

[Captain Jep]

I think it prevails in quite a few communities. We certainly don't have a large community where I am at, but I think it runs fairly rampant here in my area. Worse at some festivals than others, or some milongas than others...but certainly present.

Shame. I am part of a small community but we all get on pretty well and socialize together outside the classes.

Sometimes that culture is a consequence of poor teaching. If no one teaches the beginners properly then it affects everything :

- the readiness of more advanced dancers to dance with the beginners
- the feeling of "entitlement" when a beginner does become more advanced (Ive struggled so others should too)
- higher drop out rates, whether from boredom (advanced dancers) or frustration (the beginners)

Yes, there could also be an element of insane competitiveness too :rolleyes:

(Sorry if I am going off thread here - I have nothing much to say about "old style" dancing - ironically our local teachers did a workshop on it last weekend but I didnt attend... )

[Angel HI]

Is this just a big city phenomenon in the States? Or does it prevail in the smaller dance communities also? We get it here in London but I dont think anywhere else.
No, it seems to be something that just occurs. I believe b/c of the way AT was orig introduced to main stream dancing, and the profound innateness of it. Though they shouldn't, people take dance, in general, very personally.
If I remember my AT history, the people in the background who are using the outstreched stiff arms was something the French introduced in France, ... Then some of that technique got back to Buenos Aires through immigrant migration. I think it died there too.
I believe that you are correct. The underline is agreeing w/ something that I had posted earlier.

[bastet]

Shame. I am part of a small community but we all get on pretty well and socialize together outside the classes.

Sometimes that culture is a consequence of poor teaching. If no one teaches the beginners properly then it affects everything :

- the readiness of more advanced dancers to dance with the beginners
- the feeling of "entitlement" when a beginner does become more advanced (Ive struggled so others should too)
- higher drop out rates, whether from boredom (advanced dancers) or frustration (the beginners)

Yes, there could also be an element of insane competitiveness too :rolleyes:

(Sorry if I am going off thread here - I have nothing much to say about "old style" dancing - ironically our local teachers did a workshop on it last weekend but I didnt attend... )

There is a lot of "us versus them" attitude here where I am, cliqueishness (Sp??) and so forth. I think it has a WHOLE lot to do with the attitude of the people who have taught the people that act that way and have basically passed it on to them.

The "fringe" people here tend to be very independant, and dance with whomever they want, but there is a "inner circle" of people who tend to only dance with each other and some see it as the pinnacle of the local scene to dance with someone from that circle...personally, I've danced with some of them and don't really see them as "all that".

[bordertangoman]

hi BTM, need some help: there is only a neat conversation at 0.32

its before that maybe at 0.20

[bordertangoman]

There is a lot of "us versus them" attitude here where I am, cliqueishness (Sp??) and so forth. I think it has a WHOLE lot to do with the attitude of the people who have taught the people that act that way and have basically passed it on to them.

The "fringe" people here tend to be very independant, and dance with whomever they want, but there is a "inner circle" of people who tend to only dance with each other and some see it as the pinnacle of the local scene to dance with someone from that circle...personally, I've danced with some of them and don't really see them as "all that".

Same here but I have become the "them" around here because one idiot took over when he thought I wasn't teaching traditional tango; so I have become a renegade tango teacher but not through choice.

[bastet]

Same here but I have become the "them" around here because one idiot took over when he thought I wasn't teaching traditional tango; so I have become a renegade tango teacher but not through choice.


oy...can't there ever be room for everyone? It really leads to such better trained dancers both to have choices and to have students that are well informed and aware of ALL of tango, not just a few parts of it and that actually take lessons from different teachers.

In some cities there are *GASP* students that are happy to take from different instructors because they know the different instructors have specialites. I think that sort of thing leads to much better equalization and socialization in a community.

[bordertangoman]

oy...can't there ever be room for everyone? It really leads to such better trained dancers both to have choices and to have students that are well informed and aware of ALL of tango, not just a few parts of it and that actually take lessons from different teachers.

In some cities there are *GASP* students that are happy to take from different instructors because they know the different instructors have specialites. I think that sort of thing leads to much better equalization and socialization in a community.

well I agree I dont expect my students to learn everything from me.
1. I don't know everything
2. I've probably forgotten some of the things I use rarely.
3. I learned different things from different teachers or sometimes a different approaoch to the same thing from different teachers.

yes there is room but this has split the community.Now if everyone was dancing/practicing together the learning curve would accelerate. Now there's a few people who go to both places but there's others who believe the b******* the other guy is spouting.

[Captain Jep]

well I agree I dont expect my students to learn everything from me.
1. I don't know everything
2. I've probably forgotten some of the things I use rarely.
3. I learned different things from different teachers or sometimes a different approaoch to the same thing from different teachers.

yes there is room but this has split the community.Now if everyone was dancing/practicing together the learning curve would accelerate. Now there's a few people who go to both places but there's others who believe the b******* the other guy is spouting.

Hmm I wonder if I know who you are referring to! I will have to start digging...

Sadly this kind of thing very common - is there in fact any community anywhere that hasnt split for one reason or another ?! Ours had a split about 3 years ago when the guy in the teaching couple dropped his dance partner and started teaching with his girl friend....

I wonder though whether there are specific issues with tango. This whole "authenticity" thing seems a much bigger issue than with salsa and ceroc. For instance with the salsa we might grumble at the standard of teaching but at the end of the day we just get on with it. "Cuban" salsa isnt seen as innately superior to "LA" salsa. With tango however it has to be "authentic" and that means it has to be "Argentine" ... whatever that means!

Pah! Lets just dance!

[Steve Pastor]

The "fringe" people here tend to be very independant, and dance with whomever they want, but there is a "inner circle" of people who tend to only dance with each other and some see it as the pinnacle of the local scene to dance with someone from that circle...personally, I've danced with some of them and don't really see them as "all that".

Fringe guy here!
Ditto regarding SOME of the inner circle people. Some of them are in fact quite good. I respect their choice to only dance with certain people, just as I only dance with people with whom I want to dance.

[Steve Pastor]

Regarding teachers teaching different things and people in general bad mouthing other styles, etc.

I was very impressed at how much cooperation and mutual respect there was among AT teachers here in Portland. Some of the people I highly respected both as dancers and teachers would take classes from other instructors along with us newbies, just to learn another style or another way to approach AT, or to work on basics.

After making the comment about early tango that went to Europe I got out "Tango - the ART History of Love" (hereinafter to be known as TAHL) by Robert Farris Thompson again.
Using "hand signals" to signal moves to the woman were very common in the first two decades of the previous century (~1900 - 1920).
We all need to keep in mind that tango has a history of over a hundred years. Just what tango do you want to pick out of all that has come before to be "authentic"?
If you know anything about jazz, which has been around almost as long as tango, you could think about how much IT has changed in the last century. Even Rock n Roll can serve as an example. Classic Rock to me is stuff from the 50s and early 60s. Classic Rock stations have their own definition: what ever was current when their demographic was young.

Anyhow, I should start an early tango thread.

If you are in a competetive situation think about this...
If you diss other teachers and styles you are adding to a climate of division. You will attract and retain students who at the least will tolerate that, and at the worst be more vehement about it than you are.
If you acknowledge that AT emcompasses a very broad array of styles both of music and of dance, and, with certain simple rules people of different styles can dance in the same room and respect each other, you will attract and retain people who are open minded and tolerant of others.

But, maybe this is easy for me to say because I'm not a teacher.

Remember though, that although I do have my complaints and concerns about the AT scene here in Portland, the teachers and organizers here have been very successful over the past decade or so. It is a model to seriously consider adopting.

[Angel HI]

Regarding teachers teaching different things and people in general bad mouthing other styles, etc.
Agreed. I always invite students whom attend my classes to attend others'.

We all need to keep in mind that tango has a history of over a hundred years. Just what tango do you want to pick out of all that has come before to be "authentic"?
This deserved a bold. Best statement in the thread.
...the AT scene here in Portland, .... is a model to seriously consider adopting.
Knowing that there are bad apples/situations/circumstances everywhere, I must agree that I found less squabbling between camps in Portland than most places. Not to start an argument, but one person even said to me that they (the community) had been to other places, and tried very hard not to be like most BR communities. Hmmm. :rolleyes:

[Steve Pastor]

I'm going to presume to represent a 'Portland" viewpoint about the perception of ballroom and AT. MInd you, I'm not saying it's fact, but it is the perception.

Ballroom people go to studios and learn a highly structured dance. Everything is related to a "level": Bronze, Silver, Gold. Events are held at the studio in a safe, structured enviroment. Competition is encouraged, and entire culture is in place to facilitate it.

Argentine Tango is taught in a variety of venues and in an unstructured fashion. Beginner, intermediate, and advanced level "ratings" are to a large extent ignored. Students are encouraged to attend practicas, and milongas in different venues. Competition, in a formal sense, is practically unknown, and community is emphasied.

Portland has a pretty liberal, open minded population in the midst of a geographically huge rural/conservative state.

Keep in mind the following: these are the ideals I could easily have added qualifiers to many of the statements, I am presuming to reflect the AT culture here, and these are the perceptions, although not necessarily the realities.