lead/follow better by dancing with less experienced dancers

[cl5814]

I was just reading an article on lead/follow and the following statement was made, which i found rather interesting.

"You learn how to dance better by dancing with more experienced partners. But you learn how to lead/follow better by dancing with less experienced partners. Your skills are put much more to the test dancing with a beginner than with an experienced dancer. It is easy to lead/follow a great dancer. All your weaknesses as a leader/follower show up with beginners. Dance with them and ask yourself why each incorrectly led/followed figure didn't work and when you figure it out, work on incorporating the fixes into all your dancing! "

If anyone is interested in reading the rather lengthy article it is posted at
dancers-archive.com/rec-arts-dance/topics/lead-follow-discussion.txt

[Chris Stratton]

There is some truth to this, but there is also a major pitfall - overleading to the point of developing bad habits.

For example, spend some time trying to get a beginner lady to do heel turns in foxtrot. It's very easy to over-do this by shoving her on her heels, and then over rotating, for example finishing a reverse turn with the right shoulder forward in her space. This can push her off balance, and takes a lot of the life out of life out of a following feather finish since you can't swing the left shoulder through when it is already back. Often the habit persists even when dancing with better followers...

[goldfish]

hmm i'd agree and disagree... being a beginner follow :)

yes because dancing with someone less experienced shows how clearly you lead. the awesome leads make me look good because their leads are strong, clear and they pick up on my level of ability and lead within that. and less experienced leads make me work on basics a lot more and focus, focus, focus!

no because with follows even more green than me (hard to find, but there are teehee), i found myself autopiloting the dance rather than following. like if they lead a turn, but lead it out of time and sort of jerkily, i'd compensate for it by keeping to the rhythm and using my frame to sort of push them into finishing the turn more neatly. but that's not what they lead - so i didn't really follow, but did my own thing, which *they* accomodated. the more green leads have told me they were thankful for my aggressive follow, whereas the more experienced ones tell me they're glad when i don't autopilot :P
[/i]

[spatten]

I would have to disagree with the article. I do a lot of social dancing with beginning dancers and find it almost necessary to lead with my arms much more than I would like. As long as I am conscious of what I am doing, I can keep it from becoming a habit. But it is quite easy to devlop "overleading" as Chris suggested by putting beginners where you want them.

I can also think of much more beneficial ways to focus on your leading skills than just going out and finding a beginner to practice upon.

Scott

[dragon3085]

I always thought this was just a ploy to get the more expereienced dancers to dance with the newcomers. :twisted:
Actually I do disagree with this though and here is why. If I am leading something with someone above my level and she doesn't follow it correctly, I can 99 percent sure I screwed the lead. However with a less experienced follower I can't be sure if it was my bad lead or their inability to follow. So really from a leading perspective, I think that dancing with someone above my level, allows me to isolate and refine my lead to a higher degree by removing a variable from the equation.

pat

[Chris Stratton]

I can also think of much more beneficial ways to focus on your leading skills than just going out and finding a beginner to practice upon.


Taking one-on-one technique (as opposed to performance prep) lessons with a good female coach can work well.

[msc]

I agree with spatten. Going from social to my instructor (a former US Standard finalist,) I have to change my lead technique dramatically. In fact, social dancing can really mess up your lead, in my experience.

[tsb]

it hasn't been stated but there are some assumptions here:
- that we are speaking as social (non-competitive) dancers;
- that we WANT to be able to dance with almost everyone. most competitive dancers work at dancing well with a few select partners;

not while everyone has that goal but i will assume that it is for everyone responding. so...

There is some truth to this, but there is also a major pitfall - overleading to the point of developing bad habits.


i submit that part of being a good lead is figuring out exactly how clear their lead needs to be and adjusting their lead accordingly - no need to shout when you can whisper. example: to lead a beginner follower through a right turn, i may keep my right hand on her shoulder blade to guide her until she's actually facing away from me whereas with a really advanced follower, i can just do a gentle roll with my palm with my wrist travelling no more than 1/2" and release and she'll go.


no because with follows even more green than me (hard to find, but there are teehee), i found myself autopiloting the dance rather than following. like if they lead a turn, but lead it out of time and sort of jerkily, i'd compensate for it by keeping to the rhythm and using my frame to sort of push them into finishing the turn more neatly. but that's not what they lead - so i didn't really follow, but did my own thing, which *they* accomodated. the more green leads have told me they were thankful for my aggressive follow, whereas the more experienced ones tell me they're glad when i don't autopilot :P
[/i]

truly inexperienced leaders do get some benefit when their followers backlead in understanding how it should feel when their partners execute the move - particularly in class. you don't say whether this is in a class or dance environment, but i imagine that the main gratitude the inexperienced leads were expressing was that you made them look better rather than for any "lead" skill development - you compensated for them the same way more advanced leaders compensate for less skilled followers, which is always a good thing.

Actually I do disagree with this though and here is why. If I am leading something with someone above my level and she doesn't follow it correctly, I can 99 percent sure I screwed the lead. However with a less experienced follower I can't be sure if it was my bad lead or their inability to follow.

i submit that part of being a good leader is not choosing a move (during a dance) they aren't sure they can lead that particular partner through (or sure that the partner can execute) smoothly.

I agree with spatten. Going from social to my instructor (a former US Standard finalist,) I have to change my lead technique dramatically. In fact, social dancing can really mess up your lead, in my experience.

i understand what you're trying to say, but it will confuse a lot of people.
very few competitive dancers can dance well with a lot of people. but then that's usually not one of their goals, so what they learn in lead and follow is a lot more right way/wrong way - which works because everyone's dancing to those standards.

lead/follow is communication. for those who compete, the vocabulary is very specific and detailed, and everyone that each person dances with is expected to be fluent with that vocabulary - or least be on the same page. this is an unrealistic expectation in a social setting.

[msc]

i understand what you're trying to say, but it will confuse a lot of people.
very few competitive dancers can dance well with a lot of people. but then that's usually not one of their goals, so what they learn in lead and follow is a lot more right way/wrong way - which works because everyone's dancing to those standards.

It's got less to do with an arbitrary standard of right and wrong, and more to do with aesthetics. For example, socially, you might dance a waltz, transferring weight fully in the ballpark of each count, using small strides and a flat appearance. And if someone were to watch, they might find the dance cute, but that's about it. And there are plenty of folks that enjoy doing it in that way, and that's great.

On the other hand, you could dance a waltz with long, powerful strides, smooth weight transfer, gliding across the floor, smoothly flowing up in the rises and down in the falls, toes and heels contacting the floor precisely as a beat occurs. Both partners stretched long, making subtle changes that tune the moves to the music in the air. Folks would watch such a waltz with slack jaws and drool running down their chin. And there are some folks that enjoy doing a waltz in that fashion, and that's great too.

The problem is, to be able to do the second type of waltz requires training, both of skills and of muscles. Further, there's a tactile element, namely, it just feels better to do it in that fashion, and once you put yourself through the pain and suffering of the training to reach that level, you don't want to go back to the first type of waltz. Unfortunately, it's hard to explain this feeling very well in words, you just have to experience it for yourself.

Now there are gradations between the first case and the second case, so it's not simply a cut and dried matter, that a highly advanced dancer wouldn't derive any enjoyment from a less advanced dancer. And there are always personal considerations, friends whose lack of ability or training are offset by the fact that they enjoy the dance, and so the advanced dancer enjoys it.


But still, most who go through the training to improve want to be able to move at their maximum ability, and usually that's with a partner. Then, if they practice for 2 hours a day, it's hard to find fault if they don't feel like social dancing ... although some still will, if they have the energy.

[pygmalion]

Understood, msc. But what about the ordinary schlubs fighting their way up to that level? No, perhaps higher levels dancers who've fought their way up don't enjoy social-level dance anymore. But what about the scrubs (like me LOL :oops: ) who've seen the promised land, but aren't there yet?

[msc]

Unfortunately, Jenn, the answer is you need to find a partner who is in your ballpark ability-wise, but wanting to expand their abilities. And I know that's a tough thing to find ... and trust me on this one, it's even tougher to find it and lose it.

An outstanding instructor will help offset the lack of a partner, but still, ultimately, you need that partner to make fast progress.

[tsb]

i understand what you're trying to say, but it will confuse a lot of people.
very few competitive dancers can dance well with a lot of people. but then that's usually not one of their goals, so what they learn in lead and follow is a lot more right way/wrong way - which works because everyone's dancing to those standards.

It's got less to do with an arbitrary standard of right and wrong, and more to do with aesthetics.

i fail to see the distinction; perhaps right vs. wrong was a poor choice of words initially. still, all i perceive is that you've attempted to reframe the perspective of right vs. wrong by invoking the concept of "aesthetic" - which still requires an arbitrary value judgement of "pleasing" vs. somehow "less pleasing".

the remainder of your post does not speak towards the actual topic - how dancing with partners of various lead & follow abilities aids (or hinders) the development of one's lead and follow skills - with my own added caveat that this is relevant primarily when it is a goal to be able to dance well with anyone (which i added because i'm quite familiar with the text from which the quote was lifted - and the context is social dance where one is expected to dance with a lot of different partners over the course of an evening).

perhaps it would help to define what "well" means (to me, anyway), which in this instance would be using all their skills to help their partner have a good time on the floor. when it comes to leading & following it's about using (or needing) the least amount of signals to communicate. and my lead varies according to the skill level of my partner: 1) i generally need to be more attentive to lead a less skilled follower & i devote less energy to enjoying the dance; 2) why shout when all you need to do is whisper?;
what i read out of your response is that it's more about your own enjoyment. i understand that very well; dance is supposed to be a source of enjoyment & i get plenty of work dance hosting, assisting & teaching & it's generally with partners of lesser skills (or they wouldn't have to pay me or at the very least let me into the venue or class for free). so when i do go dancing solely socially i tend to dance primarily with other advanced dancers (but i never turn down a request to dance). still, it's the time spent dancing with the beginners that keeps my lead firm, unambiguous & still as light as possible.

[pygmalion]

Unfortunately, Jenn, the answer is you need to find a partner who is in your ballpark ability-wise, but wanting to expand their abilities. And I know that's a tough thing to find ... and trust me on this one, it's even tougher to find it and lose it.

An outstanding instructor will help offset the lack of a partner, but still, ultimately, you need that partner to make fast progress.

Yes. I'm beginning to see what you mean. :?

[spatten]

By far, the major reason for my dissention with the original post was to prevent future leaders from developing bad habits which may not manifest in social dancing but will eventually in competitive or advanced social dancing. It is unfortunate when one has to spend time unlearning bad habits, and I know all that well.

As both a social and competitive dancer I see no reason to distinguish two different leading styles. Learn how to lead well, and it should serve both purposes.

I am not sure that the "strength" of a lead makes all that much difference in the end. I have danced (usually in a student/coach situation) with some world class ladies and have noticed a large difference in the amount of connection they prefer. This applies mostly to Latin, as your connection is pretty fixed in Standard.

To me what is much more important to learn is to shape where you want the lady. It is equally important to learn not to take the lady off of her balance. To learn these qualities you probably have to take coachings.

I compeletly agree that a good lead will adjust his steps, styling to match the capability of the follower. I would submit that the best way to pratice this is to dance with many ladies of different experience. I think both the competitive dancer and social dancer would be helped.

Scott[/quote]

[msc]

what i read out of your response is that it's more about your own enjoyment

It's actually a shared enjoyment. Still, I really have no desire to offer further explanation on this matter. Enjoy your dancing, tsb.

[DancePoet]

Despite perhaps some differing, or misunderstood, or whatever, views...this has been a fascinating thread. Thank you spatten, tsb, and msc!

And msc, could you explain the comment about needing a partner to progress faster?

[Sarah]

I was just reading an article on lead/follow and the following statement was made, which i found rather interesting.

"You learn how to dance better by dancing with more experienced partners. But you learn how to lead/follow better by dancing with less experienced partners. Your skills are put much more to the test dancing with a beginner than with an experienced dancer. It is easy to lead/follow a great dancer. All your weaknesses as a leader/follower show up with beginners. Dance with them and ask yourself why each incorrectly led/followed figure didn't work and when you figure it out, work on incorporating the fixes into all your dancing! "

If anyone is interested in reading the rather lengthy article it is posted at
dancers-archive.com/rec-arts-dance/topics/lead-follow-discussion.txt

Its just about axiomatic in aikido, my martial art of choice, that if you're open to it you can learn -something- from anyone you practice with, be they a first-lesson newbie or a master with 30 year's worth of experience. The same definitely holds for the social latin I do, and I'd be very surprised if it didn't hold for ballroom dancing too.

Cheers
Sarah

[DancePoet]

Sarah, your words remind me of a situation I experienced recently.

I was dancing with a woman who has been dancing for years. She danced competively at some of the top levels. When she was nice enough to do a bronze level cha-cha with me, I lead a pattern she was unfamiliar with. When I offered that perhaps it was just my lead, she brushed this off and actually wanted to learn the steps!

[guydavis]

Thanks all for this thread. One of the reasons I love dancing (social - no desire to compete) so much is that I find leading and following so fascinating.

My teachers make it a point to have me play the ladies role quite often and have even let me be a lady in classes when there are more men than women. And the more often I do this the better I feel I become as a lead.

I've found that dancing with anyone whether more experienced or less experienced and just asking myself how I could do things better that I've become a much stronger lead overall.

I have taken with another teacher however who thinks my lead is much too strong and that just subtle body movements are needed to lead a good follower.

[Genesius Redux]

A few random thoughts on this thread.

I completely agree with those who are saying that dancing socially a lot with people who are beginning can mess up your lead, particularly if you're accomodating your partners.

What tsb is saying in his discussion of the right turn is an exact illustration of that. Helping your partner turn by pushing her shoulder blade is not leading. It can conceivably be one way of teaching; but it's not a way that I would agree with, for reasons I'll talk about later.

In Cha Cha for example that underarm lead comes from a very slight in-connection to the left hand. I establish that in-connection at the same time that I present my left hand to my partner so she can use it to complete the turn (there can be other styles of doing this), and if I want her to double turn, I'll "stir the pot" a little as she comes around. That's leading. Pushing her around with my right hand while cranking her with my left is not. I'm dancing, not churning butter.

There are some follows whom you have to try to hold in and control while dancing with them. Some follows require that hands on manipulation just to stay with you. And it's unpleasant to have to deal with. Does that make dancing about my pleasure? Yup. Though I may for social reasons dance with some partners who can't follow, I don't generally enjoy it.

Getting such partners to follow you is absolutely not a test of your skills as a lead. It may be a test of your ability to control a body. During the days, I teach writing, and I'm well skilled in being able to translate sludge and gobbledygook into clear, elegant thought. But to do that is often to fail as a teacher--you do much better keeping your mouth shut and making your students explain to you what they mean.

So when I see follows who require all this manipulation, the first person I blame is their teacher. Who for ease, convenience, whatever, has just pushed and shoved his student around (probably very subtly) rather than teaching her how to follow. So now she thinks all this manipulation is what a lead is.

Sometimes people use the physical manipulation as a teaching tool, just to show the student where to move without having to explain. I dislike this shortcut as well, for the same reason I dislike force training in dogs. The creature you're teaching (human or animal) doesn't learn to move on his or her own--that short cut to operant conditioning is always problematic, then. If you put in a shove or a lure, you eventually have to fade it--and that takes as much if not more work than teaching it properly from the beginning.

For the same reason backleading is a problematic teaching technique--force doesn't work with people or dogs. What my teacher usually does is put me in the follow position to illustrate what she's looking for in the lead. On the social floor, I think backleading is one of the worst faux pas you can make. What it says to the lead--"You're completely incapable, so I'm going to have to take charge of this dance and show you what I like to do." That seems rude. Just as an experienced lead with an inexperienced follow, the experienced follow works within the confines of the lead's real experience. Trust me, we know it when we need to get solid on more patterns. Correcting someone's dance at a social is like correcting someone's grammar at a cocktail party. You just don't do it (unless maybe you know them extremely well).

Although I have been out dancing with people who just love being pushed or shoved around (and they'll be like, "Gee that was fun!") afterwards, they never come back or really learn how to dance. So what's the point of dancing with them--fun for them, not for me. A good lead will, yes, often stick to things he knows his partner can follow. But then the partner gets "bored." That may be one of the reasons so many people love club salsa so much--the lead comes through the arms a lot of the time; you can do more stuff with someone who doesn't know as much. In ballroom, you just can't.

So no, dancing with someone who is way below your level is a nice courtesy but hardly a test of your skills as a lead. Any more than the performance of your students is a simple indication of your ability as a teacher.

As far as aesthetics and different dancing styles goes--msc's waltz analogy brought to mind something else. Full ballroom style waltz is not always the best aesthetic choice. If you remember The Godfather, Brando has a waltz in the wedding scene with Talia Shire. What makes it a great dance is that Brando does not go into Fred Astaire mode, but keeps with the staid, understated motions of Don Corleone. And it's not a bad box step, as I recall.

That's all I've got to add.

[pygmalion]

Just for the record, folks, this thread has gotten too in-depth for me to be able to respond. I was going to read through the thread, type in a quick response, then head out of the office. But No!!! Can't be done. I'll have to come back, read carefully and comment later. :wink: :lol: Yeesh! You'd think this was a technical discussion forum! :wink: :lol:

[cl5814]

As originator of this thread, i must agree that this thread has become very interesting.

[spatten]

I had another thought about this topic, from a different perspective.

Perhaps the original article is targeted to beginners learning to lead. And though I have my concerns, it might be a good argument in that specific case.

As an analogy I have always been perplexed by teachers telling beginning students to take "smaller steps". I have seen this time and time again. And yet who would argue that a well-done cha-cha( the most prominent example) should be done with small steps? Does anyone see Bryan Watson taking small steps throughout his cha-cha? I don't think so.

But in what seems a twist, people learn to balance their weight better with the small steps - then they can progress to dancing a good looking cha-cha with full volume.

Does this mean we leaders have to learn to overlead first, so that we can recognize how to give a good lead? Probably not, but an interesting thought.

[pygmalion]

This turned out to be an interesting thread, which has gotten me thinking. Egalitarian that I am, I've always supported the "dance with anybody, everybody, but especially the newbie," philosophy. This thread has me thinking that I should amend that. My philosophy still works, for social dancers. But perhaps, for competitive dancers, that approach doesn't work so well. I remember when I was transitioning from social to competitive training, and taking lessons at two studios. Both sets of teachers were disappointed with me constantly. The two just didn't mesh. Perhaps the social/competitive divide is just too wide to bridge. Hmm. :?

[msc]

Jenn,
You have to be able to keep them separate. Basically, after a certain point, you won't improve a whole lot from social dancing. Now it's different for the "social" dances like WCS and Salsa, where the two dancers can move at completely different levels and still have a good time. But if you start transitioning to advanced or competitive ballroom, you'll find that the skills you need at a high level are totally different from the skills you need socially. Furthermore, you'll find that a lot of leads don't really appreciate you practicing those techniques socially, because they can't use those techniques themselves (or have no desire to.) If you don't believe me, try using swing, sway, or Latin action with a lead that's not really leading it, and see how they react.

[Sagitta]

In response to GR and others comments...

As a social dancer I've taught beginner dancers to do, for instance the right hand turn, by exactly that, pressure on their left shoulder through the turn, with right hand. By the end of the dance I am applying barely any / no pressure and they can execute the turn. I used to do this and it worked. These people went on to dance with someone else and did not ahvea problem doing the RHT. However, I do think that manipulating people is wrong, and so now I think that better ways teach RHT are:

1. Do a two hand turn, or

2. Do it with leaders right and followers left, or

3. Do it with leaders left followers left connection.

In all three cases the follow feels the suggestion transmitted through their left arms, plus there are obvious visual clues. Then transitioning to right hand turn with leaders left - followers right is not an issue.

[Genesius Redux]

In response to GR and others comments...

As a social dancer I've taught beginner dancers to do, for instance the right hand turn, by exactly that, pressure on their left shoulder through the turn, with right hand. By the end of the dance I am applying barely any / no pressure and they can execute the turn. I used to do this and it worked.

That's what I meant by gradually fading the prompt--only in fading the prompt, the follow has to deal with a completely new set of lead signals; instead of the pressure, the signal comes when the hand is removed!

I do the same thing you do, Sag, on the social floor--it's the only easy way to show someone you want them to turn without going through the whole process of teaching them how to do it. Not having had the experience of actually teaching someone the UAT, I don't know what I would do in that case.

Oh, and Jenn--I didn't mean to imply that I never dance with newbies; I do that all the time. Just that I agree with Chris that you can fall into bad habits when you spend too much time cranking people!

Cheers,

Genesius