Lifts and Drops

[WaltzElf]

Does anyone know of any good videos/ examples of good lifts and drops? In a few weeks we're going to start putting together some proper show pieces, to use in auditions and the like (we really, really want to get on a boat), so we're looking for really good lifts to steal.

Any other nice and dramatic show moments that wouldn't have a place on a comp floor that we could use for inspiration would be very welcome too.

[Dave]

If you just want examples of good lifts, YouTube has many good examples.

Couples to look for (that I know are on YouTube): David and Sharon Savoy, David Howland and Vivienne Ramsey, David and Leslie Elkin, Eric Luna and Georgia Ambarian, Tommye Giacchino and Gregory Day, Victor da Silva and Hanna Karttunnen.

If that's not what you're after, you might need to be a bit more specific.

[WaltzElf]

If you just want examples of good lifts, YouTube has many good examples.

Couples to look for (that I know are on YouTube): David and Sharon Savoy, David Howland and Vivienne Ramsey, David and Leslie Elkin, Eric Luna and Georgia Ambarian, Tommye Giacchino and Gregory Day, Victor da Silva and Hanna Karttunnen.

If that's not what you're after, you might need to be a bit more specific.

Actually that's excellent. I knew of Victor and Hanna, but other than those two I didn't really know of any good cabaret couples.

The thing that frustrates me about lifts is sometimes otherwise genius couples (Mirko and Alessia) will do a lift during a show piece. It seems out of place... I'd rather them use those seconds to dance. I have come to the conclusion that if you're going to do lifts, you do them properly.


To YouTube I go!

[WaltzElf]

Just watched a David and Sharon Savoy Youtube.

See, cabaret artists deserve more recognition in dancesport, and should be more supported in dancesport.

[etp777]

I'd definitely give another vote for watching Eric and Georgia.

[Angel HI]

Couples to look for (that I know are on YouTube): David and Sharon Savoy, David Howland and Vivienne Ramsey, David and Leslie Elkin, Eric Luna and Georgia Ambarian, Tommye Giacchino and Gregory Day, Victor da Silva and Hanna Karttunnen.

Agreed. None better.

[WaltzElf]

How popular/ big is cabaret competition in the US? Some of the youtubes suggest there are semi finals at some competitions - in Australia there's virtually no cabaret competition, and limited use of it as a distinct style in show pieces.


I ask because if it's there's enough prestiege in it, and a strong enough level of competition, my partner and I might well make a trip to the US to compete in a few events next year.

[Angel HI]

How popular/ big is cabaret competition in the US?
Tricky question b/c there really is no cabaret as it once was. Cabaret and theatre Arts were, at one time, seperate divisions, and Cabaret did not allow lifts/drops as it does today. Somehwere, it changed. TA has always been big in comp, and a real crowd fav. In that sense, bring it on! :)

[Larinda McRaven]

Anymore it is just called "Showdance".

[WaltzElf]

Ok, so, whatever it's called now (we call it "exhibition" here these days) - there's a significant competition scene for dancesport where lifts are the focus? How many couples turn up for the larger events, and what's the quality like (obviously not everyone is Hanna and Victor standard.)

[Angel HI]

Absolutely.

[WaltzElf]

Sounds good. US here we come.

We'll drop a few steps of NV in our routines, just to confuse everyone ;-)

[Angel HI]

Keep us posted. Would love to see it.

[Larinda McRaven]

At a regular comp there could be anywhere from 0-4 couples, mostly I would say 2. I rarely see more, unless you are at a big comp like Emerald which may have 4 or 5.

[WaltzElf]

Ok, when is Emerald on?

If we do come to compete, we'd want to compete at the larger comps. If Emerald is on in the second half of the year I think it's something we could be ready for if we start work now.


In terms of how cabaret/ showdance/ exhibition works - does the couple select the music, or does the competition organisers?

[Angel HI]

I believe it is usually mid spring...april? LM will know.

[Larinda McRaven]

29 April - 2 May. You select your own music.

[Dave]

Ok, so, whatever it's called now (we call it "exhibition" here these days) - there's a significant competition scene for dancesport where lifts are the focus? How many couples turn up for the larger events, and what's the quality like (obviously not everyone is Hanna and Victor standard.)There always seems a bit of ambiguity about whether these things are called showdances, cabarets, theater arts, or exhibition.

I don't know much about competitive events, but there are a bunch of cabarets from the Manhatten Cabaret Classic on YouTube of various standards. If you search on 'MAC cabaret' you'll get several to look at and compare.

Here's a few other 'high end' couples you might want to look at:

Craig Smith and Natalie Wolf (current world champs). (As well as their names, try searching on exhibitiondance).

Oleg Ouchakov and Tatiana Gousarova (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj3oWxBZ8SQ) - this is from Cirque du Soleil, but it's a beautiful routine.

Australian demonstration (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YYSGMKCGiDE). I've never even heard of this couple, but the lifts in this are exceptionally clean.

[barrefly]

Thankyou so much Dave, for posting all those marvelous showdancers.
(I have booked marked one of each of their youtube clips).

My daughter is currently training in lifts. Micheal Chapman will be in town and I am hoping he would have the time to work with my daughter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooeTgboVHYM

WaltzElf, I do hope you are not planning on learning these lifts simply from youtube. You really should work with a lifts expert,....and have a competant spotter.

[etp777]

Definitely work with a competent coach on it, as way too easy to hurt yourself if you're not sure what you're doing> I've worked with two coaches just on the lifts in my tango showcase. Also got help from two pros at studio who've done a lot of TA work. This is deifnitely something wher eyou'll want outside help. :)

[Dave]

Thankyou so much Dave, for posting all those marvelous showdancers.
(I have booked marked one of each of their youtube clips). You're welcome!

My daughter is currently training in lifts. Micheal Chapman will be in town and I am hoping he would have the time to work with my daughter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooeTgboVHYMMichael Chapman is one of the people who taught our teachers. Very very good at turning the lifts (something I tend to struggle with).

WaltzElf, I do hope you are not planning on learning these lifts simply from youtube. You really should work with a lifts expert,....and have a competant spotter.From previous postings, I think he has a lifts coach. Agree on having a competant spotter, but be aware that really good spotters are few and far between. I've seen quite a few accidents caused by spotters doing the wrong thing.

[Yliander]

Does anyone know of any good videos/ examples of good lifts and drops? In a few weeks we're going to start putting together some proper show pieces, to use in auditions and the like (we really, really want to get on a boat), so we're looking for really good lifts to steal.

Any other nice and dramatic show moments that wouldn't have a place on a comp floor that we could use for inspiration would be very welcome too.

the piece called Angel here http://www.catecaplin.com/mediapage.htm# is amazing ....

one of the most amazing displays of aerials - controlled and graceful

[mamboqueen]

Thankyou so much Dave, for posting all those marvelous showdancers.
(I have booked marked one of each of their youtube clips).

My daughter is currently training in lifts. Micheal Chapman will be in town and I am hoping he would have the time to work with my daughter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooeTgboVHYM

WaltzElf, I do hope you are not planning on learning these lifts simply from youtube. You really should work with a lifts expert,....and have a competant spotter.

Michael Chapman gave a delicious lecture at OSB on lifts, having demonstrations by Decho and Bree. It was wonderful to watch (and I taped it :)) and just amazing how easy and seamless the couple went into lifts, transitioned into different shapes and poses and came out of it). Definitely a good resource to have if you have access to him.

[WaltzElf]

Dave, thanks again! (I've never heard of those Australians either)

WaltzElf, I do hope you are not planning on learning these lifts simply from youtube. You really should work with a lifts expert,....and have a competant spotter.

Yeah, like with regular dancesport, we watch videos to get some ideas of what we like and what we don't, then take those ideas to various coaches and work out how to do them with proper technique.

[mummsie]

T

Australian demonstration (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YYSGMKCGiDE). I've never even heard of this couple, but the lifts in this are exceptionally clean.

I saw this live at the Australians. They were just back for a short time I think after competing all over the world. It did look good but it didn't go over all that well at the time. I remember people saying they would have much rather seen some 'real' dancing.!! - mummsie

[katen]

Is there any amateur competition in this area in the US, or is it all professional and pro/am?

[Larinda McRaven]

Is there any amateur competition in this area in the US, or is it all professional and pro/am?

Where?

[gracie]

You can see some short videos at this year's United States Championship including Georgia and Eric at this site http://www.dancesizzle.com/CompetitionVideo/tabid/53/Default.aspx?path=2008%20Competitions!USDSC%202008 !Pro!World%20Pro%20Cabaret

[WaltzElf]

I saw this live at the Australians. They were just back for a short time I think after competing all over the world. It did look good but it didn't go over all that well at the time. I remember people saying they would have much rather seen some 'real' dancing.!! - mummsie


I really dislike this attitude. Just because it takes place in the air doesn't mean it's not real dancing. What is dancing? Movement to music. Cabaret is just a different look at dancing.

[danceronice]

I have to say I had the same reaction--a LOT of lifting and posing, not much footwork. Lifts are nice, but they seem to take a long time to set up, and again it results in the man in particular seeming very static. I was trying to figure out what makes it seem different than skating and I think it's that in skating you have a lot more lateral movement (made possible by the different medium) and the increased speeds make it more dynamic. Plus it adds momentum, getting the girl up faster and easier. But even in skating too many lifts (or rather too many close together as in competition rules limit how many you can do) detract a bit. I'd like more "in-betweens."

[WaltzElf]

I have to say I had the same reaction--a LOT of lifting and posing, not much footwork. Lifts are nice, but they seem to take a long time to set up, and again it results in the man in particular seeming very static. I was trying to figure out what makes it seem different than skating and I think it's that in skating you have a lot more lateral movement (made possible by the different medium) and the increased speeds make it more dynamic. Plus it adds momentum, getting the girl up faster and easier. But even in skating too many lifts (or rather too many close together as in competition rules limit how many you can do) detract a bit. I'd like more "in-betweens."


But that's missing the point. You're not meant to be watching the footwork in exhibition. It's about the movement of the lady through the air.


Think of standard and latin dancing as being "2 dimensional" (it's not of course, but it's essentially "flat" on the floor). Exhibition/ Cabaret is about the "3rd dimension". The aerials. The man is still the frame, the lady is still the picture. She just happens to be in the air, and rather than focus on footwork, we're meant to focus on the the way the couple balance one another and smooth transitions between highlights.


It's fundamentally different dancing to standard and latin. I really don't understand why people wish it was more of the same.

[Dave]

I have to say I had the same reaction--a LOT of lifting and posing, not much footwork. Lifts are nice, but they seem to take a long time to set up, and again it results in the man in particular seeming very static.I think that's a valid criticism of the Austrailian couple in particular -beautiful lifts, but somewhat telegraphed. But if you're watching to learn how to do the lifts, slow setup is actually a good thing, rather than bad.

In contrast, David and Leslie Elkin make nearly everything look smooth and effortless, but if you watch it trying to work out how the moves work, it's almost impossible.

Personally I find the entries and exits dispropotionately difficult, so to some extent my approach is to have a few long lifts with transitions rather than 10 shorter ones.

But I freely admit I feel no strong need for 'light and shade' in an aerials routine. Or at least, you can get a lot of that by choice of lifts and transitions. I'm a phillistine, I suppose.

I was trying to figure out what makes it seem different than skating and I think it's that in skating you have a lot more lateral movement (made possible by the different medium) and the increased speeds make it more dynamic.Yeah - there are several lifts where the man and woman have to be fixed relative to each other on entry; on a dance floor, that basically means you have to be still, but you can be moving if you're on ice.

Plus it adds momentum, getting the girl up faster and easier.I'm not sure how relevant that is. I'm not a great lifter, but even so, I find there are lifts where I could lift the girl faster, it's just that either her body wouldn't take the strain, or she'd come off my hand at the top of the lift.

[danceronice]

I'm not sure how relevant that is. I'm not a great lifter, but even so, I find there are lifts where I could lift the girl faster, it's just that either her body wouldn't take the strain, or she'd come off my hand at the top of the lift.

I don't know that there's ANY lift a normal male pairs skater could do where the girl couldn't take the strain (on average we're talking a 6' male lifting a 5'0" girl), so I'm not quite sure what you mean. A throw jump or split twist, yeah, he could maybe break her rib on the assist if he gripped REALLY tight. How would you be holding a girl in a lift that would strain her that much. I think it's just the fluidity, or lack, that bothers me with this.

Also the sheer amount of lifts does detract from the flow to my eye. It's just...one after the other, with the man not doing much that's interesting. I end up thinking mostly about the mechanics of the lift and sometimes the "ooooh!" moment of whether or not she's going to fall. After a while I'm like, okay, you can lift her while she bends into a pretzel or does the splits, what else can you do, and can you do it on time? And sometimes it's just...lifts for the sake of lifting, rather than something required by the music. More like showing off what lifts they can do rather than doing one because it's musically appropriate. Sometimes they can be--there was a Best of the Best showcase at Ohio that had a LOT of lifts, but it worked with the theme of the program.

For those who do lifts--is it physically possible to do what in skating we call a throw twist? I honestly don't know if it's possible without the high-speed entry if the girl's any bigger than a little wisp. Would it even be legal if you could?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGMV-c2MriM It's at :59 in this video. (Obviously not at that height--most skaters don't throw the girl that high, Zhang Hao is incredibly strong. He can do press lifts with other male pairs skaters.) It's sometimes done as a split double twist--two turns with the girl doing a stradle split in the middle, but not lately as what's being rewarded are more rotations. I think the video is a triple and there are teams that have gone for quads.

[WaltzElf]

Also the sheer amount of lifts does detract from the flow to my eye. It's just...one after the other, with the man not doing much that's interesting. I end up thinking mostly about the mechanics of the lift and sometimes the "ooooh!" moment of whether or not she's going to fall. After a while I'm like, okay, you can lift her while she bends into a pretzel or does the splits, what else can you do, and can you do it on time? And sometimes it's just...lifts for the sake of lifting, rather than something required by the music. More like showing off what lifts they can do rather than doing one because it's musically appropriate. Sometimes they can be--there was a Best of the Best showcase at Ohio that had a LOT of lifts, but it worked with the theme of the program.

You could level the same criticism at any form of dance, replacing "lift" with a basic technique in any other dance (leg flicks in jive, fleckerels in V. Waltz, appels in Paso Doble)... anything is potentially detracting when done poorly.

Exhibition is lifts for the sake of lifting, of course it is - it's aerial dancing. That's the point of it. Choreographed lifting to music. There's only so much the man can do when he's holding his partner six feet into the air - Exhibition, if anything, is closer to the basic point of partner dancing than anything else - the man is there to support the woman and allow her to draw an audience's attention.


Rather than criticise it as somehow inferior, perhaps you should just say it's just not for you ;-) which is fair enough, but saying it's "not dancing" or "not as interesting to watch as other types of dancing" is not fair, I don't think.

[WaltzElf]

Question to the Americans who follow exhibition - when it comes to competitions, are there rules (music track length, restricted steps, required number of lifts)?

[Dave]

I don't know that there's ANY lift a normal male pairs skater could do where the girl couldn't take the strain (on average we're talking a 6' male lifting a 5'0" girl), so I'm not quite sure what you mean.If you do a star lift, then the girl is essentially in a horizontal position with the guy lifting her at the hip. It takes a lot of core strength for her to hold that position. If I lift as hard as I can, she will sag on the way up, and then at the top of the lift her body flexes back and forth at the top. It's not that her body actually "breaks", but it looks awful, and the flexing at the top makes it pretty much impossible to keep the lift stable.

Now I'm sure there are olympic level skaters who could hold a frame even under those conditions (my current partner can't; she has some acrobatics experience, but she's 50 years old!) but then you get into the "come off the hand at the top" problem. Again, if I can get that to happen, I'm sure there are lots of 'proper' theater arts men who can do that without trying.

I think it's just the fluidity, or lack, that bothers me with this.That's another problem with lifting too hard / fast. It just looks a bit of a mess. Aesthetically, I find it looks better if the girl just goes up smoothly (at essentially constant pace), rather than going flying up for the first 2/3rds of the lift and then the end looks a struggle in comparison.

Also the sheer amount of lifts does detract from the flow to my eye. It's just...one after the other, with the man not doing much that's interesting. I end up thinking mostly about the mechanics of the lift and sometimes the "ooooh!" moment of whether or not she's going to fall. After a while I'm like, okay, you can lift her while she bends into a pretzel or does the splits, what else can you do, and can you do it on time?That's fair enough, but then there are a lot of different ways to be a dancer. To a fairly large extent, no one really does overhead lifts "to the beat". It's just way way too hard (and completely unforgiving if something goes wrong). That's why routines tend to be to smooth flowing music, the timing is much less critical if you're trying to lift on a crescendo that lasts 2 seconds than being on beat to a small fraction of a second.

For those who do lifts--is it physically possible to do what in skating we call a throw twist? I honestly don't know if it's possible without the high-speed entry if the girl's any bigger than a little wisp. Would it even be legal if you could?I thiink David and Vivienne do a single twist in some routines (or possibly a 1-and-a-half - she comes in facing him and ends up in a fish facing out). Tommye and Gregory too, I think.

And pretty much anything is legal in exhibition performances, I think.

On the other hand, and this is perhaps your point: if you look at it objectively, it's hard to argue theater arts tends to fall between two stools. The practitioners tend not to be terribly good dancers (by world champion standards), and they fall a long way short of elite acrobatic couples (skating or sports acro standards are much higher).

But there are an awful lot of people who like watching the performances.

[Larinda McRaven]

Question to the Americans who follow exhibition - when it comes to competitions, are there rules (music track length, restricted steps, required number of lifts)?

Depends on the competition and its particular rules. We have a division called "Theatrical" where there has to be a certain percentage "recognizable ballroom" dancing. I don't know any where there are minimum number of lifts. Most will have a music length rules, some allow props, some don't... It all just depends.

[elisedance]

OK, so I'm really sick - saw the title of this thread this morning and thought it was a reincarnation of the cleavage one...

Please carry on and ignore me.... <<<ah>>>......<<<<<<chooo>>>>.....

[katen]

Where?

Sorry - rephrase

Is theatre arts/exhibition only pro competition, or are there amateur comps as well?

[DavidB]

Is theatre arts/exhibition only pro competition, or are there amateur comps as well?
There used to be an Amateur division at the US Dance Championships, although it isn't in their schedule any more. They only seem to have Pro and Pro-Am divisions now. (I haven't been for over 10 years, so don't know if this is a recent change.)

Googling "Amateur Cabaret" and Dance suggests that some other comps still have an amateur division - eg Yankee Classic

Some of the major WCS and Hustle competitions have Cabaret divisions that are open to anyone.