May the BEST dancers win - Pro and Am distinction

[Porfirio Landeros]

This has been a hot topic for a while. Many people feel very strongly about having pro's and am's competiting against each other, while others don't see the problem. One side usually argues, "Shouldn't the best dancers win?" while the other asks "Is it fair, since amateurs have so many obstacles?"

Anyone wanna take sides (or make one of their own) :?:

[cl5814]

Porfirio,

Maybe this should be introduced slowly by starting with a fun event of having Pro and Am compete in the same heat. It could definitely be inspiring to the Amateur.

[Genesius Redux]

Professional and amateur has an archaic eighteenth-century ring to it; the idea of the amateur is linked to the notion of the independently wealthy men and women of leisure who could spend their time pursuing their interests but were not put to the trouble of having to make a living by them. The amateur is the remnant of an archaic aristocratic ideology that was dismantled in the West during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries by the explosion of commercial relations.

For centuries, the "professional" was disparaged and regarded as the lowest form of life. Actors, dancers, musicians, had to use the servant's entrance. The conception of the Olympics continues the disdain for the professional--the amateur was the gentleman, whereas the professional, in his preoccupation with money, was somewhat crass.

The spread of sports and the arts as big business and monied industry has transformed our idea of the professional. The Professional has come to signify talent and industry--the amateur the essence of dilettantism. The old snobbery has been more or less completely reversed.

There is some meaningful distinction in terms of resources--the pro has more resources and more time to devote to her dancing. In some ways, every time she teaches she's working on her own dancing. The only am with comparable resources is independently wealthy. Still, plenty of amateur competitors who haven't got the money still have the talent. They may not have the time--but that's another issue.

It's only in the organization of a competition and in the financial basis of the industry that the difference between pro and am is meaningful. Allowing pros and ams to compete against each other would be difficult especially for pro-am competitors. Because the pro partner wouldn't be able to compete with both her amateur and her professional partner.

The pro/am distinction, in other words, allows the professional dancers to compete with their pro partners, because such competition doesn't conflict with their amateur partners.

Outside the competitive world the distinction doesn't mean squat. Dancing is dancing. You social dance with people you have fun with. You perform with people who can sell the performance.

I really don't see many ways to mix up pro and am competitions given the structure of the industry, though.

[SDsalsaguy]

Just to add to this keep in mind that the best Ams, almost world-wide now, also make money from teaching...

[pygmalion]

So, then, what exactly is the distinction between pro and am? I thought amateur was defined as not making money. But I know of amatuers who teach. So what gives?

[Vince A]

The distinctions . . . as I interpret the rules . . .

PRO:
any contestant who has "professionally" taught "partnership" dancing, either in group classes, workshops, or private lessons, for any amount of monetary compensation, no matter whether that compensation benefited the contestant, another person, or another orgaization, such as a dance team or social dance club.

Part-time PRO:
. . . compensation for the same as above, amounts to less than half of the teacher/competitor's income . . . is considered a . . .

PRO with more than half of the compensation:
any contestant who has "professionally taught "partnership" dancing for monetary compensation where at least half of his/her income comes from "partnership" dance instruction, then he/she is considered a "full-time professional."

AM:
any contestant who "assists" a professional instructor [this includes competing with] for no monetary compensation and has not received or earned actual wages or deferred future lessons in in lieu of ages, shall retain his/her "amateur" status.

[Laura]

There was a movement in the US to eliminate the distinction between Pro and Amateur in USABDA sanctioned ballroom events. The membership was informally polled, and a Governing Council vote was taken. The proposal was voted down. I head that part of the reason for this was that some of the older dancers were against it because they didn't want retired Pros coming out of retirement and dancing against them for the chance of representing the US in the Over-35 and Over-50 IDSF World Championships. (Note, this last statement is just hearsay, but it sure is a good rumor.)

Personally, I think we might as well eliminate it.

[pygmalion]

Yep. At my lowly level LOL, I don't think the distinction makes much difference. I'm a bad amateur dancer today. If I went and got a job at AMI tomorrow, I'd be a bad pro dancer tomorrow. :lol: :lol:

I think much of the controversy is at the high level, where the serious competition is.

[Porfirio Landeros]

I also wonder how the elimination of a Pro vs. Am distinction would affect the coaching system. It would seem weird to get lessons from another active competitor in your discipline, when ultimately, you're trying to beat the person you're taking lessons from. I know this already happens, when pro's take lessons from visiting European superstars and coach our domestic pros, but I wonder if the coach-only professional would start to emerge, as well as the idea of judges that don't (can't) coach.

[Warren J. Dew]

So, then, what exactly is the distinction between pro and am? I thought amateur was defined as not making money. But I know of amatuers who teach. So what gives?
That's how I define it too.

However, the international organization which used to govern amateur ballroom dancing basically started dropping the amateur requirements when the Olympics did. Unfortunately, the terminology hasn't caught up with the reality yet, so there are people who are in reality semiprofessional who are still referred to as "amateur" in certain circumstances.

There are also true amateurs who teach on a volunteer basis and don't take money for it.

[DanceAm]

I remember reading in the USABDA Rulebook that if an Amateur Competes against a pro, the Amateur loses Amateur Status. So this idea for anything other than an exhibition might really hurt the Amateur.

[dragon3085]

What are the advantages of Amateur status? I can kind of see the logic behind this, if you beat a Pro then in theory you are on his or her level, on the other hand, the Pro good be having a bad day or just not be very good. Thats one thing I liked about traditional martial art, assuming everyone is honest and honorable (and in some tournaments this isn't always the case) you compete against other of your rank- period, the only distinctions made usually have to do with age, so you don't have an 16 year matched against a 70 year old in a sparring match. But once you earn the black belt the assumption is your a 'pro'.