Foxtrot styles

[MPO]

I am new at dance and would like to learn the Foxtrot, however I’m finding that there are various styles available to choose from. I am interested only in social dancing (American style, as I live in the U.S.) and while some courses teach the ‘slow-slow-quick-quick’ style, others teach the ‘slow-quick-quick’ form. I was told that the s-s-q-q style is older and that s-q-q is considered to be more modern, is this the case? Before committing to a course, I'd like to know which form is more common, or considered to be correct? Thanks for any information that anyone can offer.

[etp777]

I know we use SQQ for continuity, or silver, and SSQQ for bronze. So at least in this area, and American/smooth, I'd learn SSQQ for social american dancing.

[fascination]

timing varies depending upon the step...a grapevine for instance is neither ...certainly American FT is what you want if you are solely into social dancing....and if that is the case simply tell your instructor that and you will undoubtedly be taught a variety of FT steps with varied timing

[fascination]

welcome to DF...also...you might care to do a search as we do have past threads that also explore these distinctions

[etp777]

Heh. Grapveine, telemark, Astaire glide if you're at FA, yeah, the timing can always be different. Esp as last has sncopation even though it's bronze. :) I was just giong by the so-called basic steps.

[elisedance]

Hi MPQ - welcome to DF - as F says above, there is a total library of information if you learn how to use the search tools (or ask for help :)). A lot of us started with social dancing and then bit by bit became more serious - perhaps you will follow that route.

I hope you stick around :)

[waltzguy]

If you prefer social dancing, I recommend American style.

If you prefer competitive dancing, and immediate submersion into serious technique, I recommend International style.

Me, I'm International style.

[Warren J. Dew]

SSQQ and SQQ are really just figure timings, and the figures can likely be used together, so you don't really have to choose one or the other. If you start with the SSQQ figures, you'll likely more quickly get to the point where you can get around the floor, but in the longer run, either is probably okay.

[samina]

have to say, although i previously thought that international standard -- slow foxtrot included -- was not social-dancing friendly, i've had a change of mind. most of the dancers in our studio are standard oriented, and i enjoy dancing with them, even strangers whose lead is not familiar to me.

i think the key is to learn what is the most common style where you dance, so that you're on the same page with the majority, so-to-speak. in my neck of the woods, i'd recommend standard-style.

[Angel HI]

DO NOT GET HUNG UP ON S-S-Q-Q CRAP!!!

IMHO, one should learn silver movment/styling first b/c it is a more natural form of movement, and then apply it to bronze. Know that Bronze/Silver are nothing more than marketing/educational terms that have nothing to do with the approriatness or preference of dance, and that slows/quicks are, in reality, arbitrary/discretionary after one has acquired the basic skills necessary to make movement happen. Having said this, the amer style would probably be btter if this is where you are.

There are several other threads on this and the orig question (I apologize for my laziness in researching them for you). (TC, your expertise is requested, here).

Oh yes....and, welcome to the DF, MPO.

[waltzguy]

have to say, although i previously thought that international standard -- slow foxtrot included -- was not social-dancing friendly, i've had a change of mind. most of the dancers in our studio are standard oriented, and i enjoy dancing with them, even strangers whose lead is not familiar to me.


Curious... with strangers whose lead is not familiar, do you run into any common issues? Also, do you dance them in contact closed position? IMHO, this is one factor that makes it hard to dance such technically oriented dances such as the slow foxtrot.

However, I agree that slow foxtrot is very danceable socially, as long as the two people have the right skills and understanding. In fact, last Sunday (a weekend ago), I danced my best social-dance slow foxtrot ever! With contact too. And, tons of traveling/progression. It was with someone who also knows Standard.

[waltzguy]

Is there not also a "Social Foxtrot" that I've read about in an English-based textbook. Can someone from England or an English system comment on the Social Foxtrot?

[etp777]

Sigh. I think I'm going to have to finally talk to teachers about really moving into closed position. Have dabbled in it a bit with former pro, new pro, and ONE student. But haven't used it much, and always fall out of it. Well, make that two students, as another one in area who just always goes into it without thinking. She's silver (And could be gold if she wanted to), and clearly thinks better of my skill level than facts would truly hold out. :)

[etp777]

This subject actually has come up before WG, with some relaly good input, if memory serves, but I'm going to pull same stunt as Angel and leave it up to TC to find it. My excuse is that TC made a face last time I did the searching. ;)

[samina]

Curious... with strangers whose lead is not familiar, do you run into any common issues?

well, understand...it's social dancing, not competing so... it's about whatever the two of us are able to enjoy in the moment, with what's at hand, and no one's judging. :)

the most common thing is that most social dancing men break their topline like crazy. so i just relax mine & don't fight the distortions.

Also, do you dance them in contact closed position? IMHO, this is one factor that makes it hard to dance such technically oriented dances such as the slow foxtrot.yes, this is true. usually closed. but the more they break and distort their own topline, the further i stay away to comfortably accommodate.

course, the following is limited because fewer of the sensitive contact points are working but...meh...it's all good. :)

[waltzguy]

Sigh. I think I'm going to have to finally talk to teachers about really moving into closed position. Have dabbled in it a bit with former pro, new pro, and ONE student. But haven't used it much, and always fall out of it. Well, make that two students, as another one in area who just always goes into it without thinking.

Heh, etp, once you experience the true potential of contact, you'll not go back. Then, you'll be one of those encouraging others for it. :p

Like me. :)

[DL]

Is there not also a "Social Foxtrot" that I've read about in an English-based textbook. Can someone from England or an English system comment on the Social Foxtrot?

Not sure if it's what you're after, but Victor Silvester wrote sections on "slow rhythm" and "quick rhythm" in "Modern Ballroom Dancing." The sections are distinct from the sections on waltz, tango, etc.

[etp777]

Some discussions of slow foxtrot. But even on these, there's definitely some confusion or variation as to whether slow fox just means american foxttrot, or if it's a seperate dance/style.

http://www.danceforums.com/showthread.php?t=15215&highlight=%22slow+foxtrot%22 (http://www.danceforums.com/showthread.php?t=15215&highlight=%22slow+foxtrot%22)
http://www.danceforums.com/showthread.php?t=7966&highlight=%22slow+foxtrot%22
http://www.danceforums.com/showthread.php?t=5262&highlight=%22slow+foxtrot%22

[Larinda McRaven]

Slowfox is International style. Rhythm or Quickfox is their version of our American Bronze. When I took my ISTD Standard exams I had to dance Rhythmfox as well... also called crush. Very small comfy embrace and very small 1/4 turns, trouble steps, and promenade walks.

So they have two versions, one based on SSQQ (rhythm) and one based on SQQ (slow).
We have two versions, one based on SSQQ (bronze) and one based on SQQ (silver and up).

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Welcome to Dance Forums, MPO! (any relation to QPO? ;) )

[Terpsichorean Clod]

This subject actually has come up before WG, with some relaly good input, if memory serves, but I'm going to pull same stunt as Angel and leave it up to TC to find it. My excuse is that TC made a face last time I did the searching. ;)
:razz:

[waltzguy]

Very small comfy embrace and very small 1/4 turns, trouble steps, and promenade walks.


Must be very hard to learn! :D

[fascination]

have to say, although i previously thought that international standard -- slow foxtrot included -- was not social-dancing friendly, i've had a change of mind. most of the dancers in our studio are standard oriented, and i enjoy dancing with them, even strangers whose lead is not familiar to me.

i think the key is to learn what is the most common style where you dance, so that you're on the same page with the majority, so-to-speak. in my neck of the woods, i'd recommend standard-style.
must be regional b/c you could knock me over with a feather (lol) if a dude ever started and intl FT socially on me...positively never around here

[LaWa]

Is there not also a "Social Foxtrot" that I've read about in an English-based textbook. Can someone from England or an English system comment on the Social Foxtrot?

International Standard Foxtrot was the very first dance I leaned. It’s a social dance in Germany, SSQQ, mainly heel leads, no rise + fall, music similar to Quickstep (which is taught later) but can be a bit slower. Slowfox is taught much later, if at all, in the social scene, SQQ.

[samina]

must be regional b/c you could knock me over with a feather (lol) if a dude ever started and intl FT socially on me...positively never around here

yes, partly regional and just partly what the studio has attracted. there's an all-american studio not far away -- where i was first introduced to dancing, as a matter of fact -- but there are many dancers who take lessons in standard in these parts and it seems to me that they like to gravitate to places where they can dance what they are learning.

[Chris Stratton]

International Standard Foxtrot was the very first dance I leaned. It’s a social dance in Germany, SSQQ, mainly heel leads, no rise + fall, music similar to Quickstep (which is taught later) but can be a bit slower.

That's not international standard foxtrot (it sounds more like slow rhythm, which is comparable to bronze american foxtrot +/- technique depending no who is teaching and why)

Slowfox is taught much later, if at all, in the social scene, SQQ.

That is international standard foxtrot.

[Angel HI]

That is international standard foxtrot.I really don't like this absolute to define the dance. This is not int'l fox...rather, just one rhythm of.

[tangotime]

I
Before committing to a course, I'd like to know which form is more common, or considered to be correct?





Lots of replies, most are correct.. in simple terms. there are 2 basic american styles available to you.... both are very popular, and one ( the continuity style ) is deemed more advanced.. thats a moot point .

Many will say that " passing "the feet with fewer closes, is easier to dance and learn , but like most things that appear easier, they are usualy more demanding.

Most social settings ( in studios )are heavily dependant on social style closed and open footwork styles . You will find, that with the Bronze type closed foot position style, most any one will follow , IF you have developed lead .
And, this same Q is going to arise, when you get to Waltz.

[Joe]

I really don't like this absolute to define the dance. This is not int'l fox...rather, just one rhythm of.
Not quite. Given the two choices listed by the OP, it is perfectly reasonable for Chris to use the two rhythms provided to distinguish between International Foxtrot and whatever the other dance was.

[jjs914]

Not quite. Given the two choices listed by the OP, it is perfectly reasonable for Chris to use the two rhythms provided to distinguish between International Foxtrot and whatever the other dance was.

Yes, but SQQ isn't necessarily international standard foxtrot...it can be American Fox with continuity, as others have pointed out.

[LaWa]

I think I should explain where I'm coming from to clear up the confusion I've maybe caused. I'm in Germany and we learn the World Dance Programme, which teaches Foxtrot as "SSQQ, mainly heel leads, no rise + fall, music similar to Quickstep..." There seem to be considerable differences in definition depending on the country we're in, so I'll just bow out of this quietly.

[Chris Stratton]

I really don't like this absolute to define the dance.

Then avoid dances with the term "standard" in their name ;-)

This is not int'l fox...rather, just one rhythm of.

It happens to be the rhythm that's (non-obvious) practical interpretation is the defining characteristic of the dance.

[Chris Stratton]

I think I should explain where I'm coming from to clear up the confusion I've maybe caused. I'm in Germany and we learn the World Dance Programme, which teaches Foxtrot as "SSQQ, mainly heel leads, no rise + fall, music similar to Quickstep..."

Sure, world dance program and perhaps aimed at international standard, but this is a local variation on what the source of that tradition would call slow rhythm - it is not international foxtrot at all.

[opendoor]

Hallo!
May I ask, whether Quickstep is a historic style, or a fast performance, or a dance of its own, compared to Foxtrot? What are the origins, when had there been the split into these different branches?
Thanks in advance

[Warren J. Dew]

Yes, but SQQ isn't necessarily international standard foxtrot...it can be American Fox with continuity, as others have pointed out.

It doesn't have to be continuity. There are plenty of closed foot position American foxtrot figures with a SQQ rhythm. Foxtrot closed boxes are danced SQQ, for example.

[Warren J. Dew]

Hallo!
May I ask, whether Quickstep is a historic style, or a fast performance, or a dance of its own, compared to Foxtrot? What are the origins, when had there been the split into these different branches?
Thanks in advance

Quickstep originated as "quick time foxtrot and charleston", which was a combination of a faster foxtrot tempo and the charleston that became popular in, I believe, the 1920s. This is as opposed to slower foxtrots that were more typical before that time.

[Larinda McRaven]

I think I should explain where I'm coming from to clear up the confusion I've maybe caused. I'm in Germany and we learn the World Dance Programme, which teaches Foxtrot as "SSQQ, mainly heel leads, no rise + fall, music similar to Quickstep..." There seem to be considerable differences in definition depending on the country we're in, so I'll just bow out of this quietly.

No need to bow out... your observation and opinion is valid and welcome.

[Angel HI]

No need to bow out... your observation and opinion is valid and welcome.
LaWa, Indeed. Please don't, although I fear that in answering your o.p., it seems that a more conceived idea of Fox is apropos. Forgive us for the mini-hi-jack.
Then avoid dances with the term "standard" in their name.
This might need a thread of its own, although it has been threaded to death, I fear. But, "standard" has nothing to do with SQQ. How do you even make that statement. What mandate does "standard" have to rhythms?
It happens to be the rhythm that's (non-obvious) practical interpretation is the defining characteristic of the dance.Disagreed. The rhythm is arbitrary, and in fact changes, as there are some figures that differ. The defining characteristic of the dance is its continuous and fluid motion of step-swing-recover danced in a perfectly closed hold.

[Chris Stratton]

The defining characteristic of the dance is its continuous and fluid motion of step-swing-recover danced in a perfectly closed hold.

SQQ figures are by far the clearest example of this.

You could make the argument that it's the ....QQ ending leading into a subsequent slow that is really determinate, but that is likely to lead to confusion because SSQQ SSQQ actions would appear to fit that pattern on paper, but lack the carry through of swing in execution.

That's why it's quite customary and logical to use the most representative and best known examples - SQQ and SSQQ to distinguish the two major types of foxtrots. This is also nice because it avoids getting caught up in the international/american issues, and simply looks at the dance actions.

[tangotime]

Hallo!
May I ask, whether Quickstep is a historic style, or a fast performance, or a dance of its own, compared to Foxtrot? What are the origins, when had there been the split into these different branches?
Thanks in advance



The 2 dances are both devised from earlier editions from the early 1900s , that have been modified to present day standards .

They both have the same "pedigree " from a combo. of One Step, Charleston, Cake walk and F/trot ( not as we know it )
F/T made its first showing in the UK in 1914 but the tempo was close to 50 bars p.m.... that made a gradual decline, and in 1929 the tempo was set at 38 and QS at 54 bars. These tempi were gradually revised over the yrs to suit music tastes, to the present day ones .

The present day construction was primarily due to to 2 well known Competitiors of the day, Andy Anderson and Josephine Bradley who developed new variations . Therewere other notables who added more variety, notably Phyllis Haylor ( I brought her over for her first Examiner duties in the states in 1964 )and Guy Howard .

Q. Step is not as well defined , but there is belief that it was strongly influenced by the Peabody, in adddition to its foxtrot beginnings ,and was refered to as Q. time foxtrot, eventually reducing it to the name... Q. step.

[opendoor]

Thanks a lot for your answers and a merry Christmas
greetings from Hamburg!

[Joe]

Yes, but SQQ isn't necessarily international standard foxtrot...it can be American Fox with continuity, as others have pointed out.
You still don't understand what Chris is trying to say. The person to whom he responded gave two characteristic rhythms, and said one was Slowfox, and the other International Standard. American Style did not come into the equation at all.

Would you say that SSQQ was the characteristic rhythm of International Standard?

[MPO]

Thanks to everyone who commented on this thread. I will continue to do some research, however from what I've read, I don't think either SSQQ or SQQ really matters to a beginner like me. I will try a course just to get started.

[waltzguy]

Yes, just get started, and go with the flow. Once you gain some experience, you can make more informed decisions on where you want to go with your dancing. Good luck!

[Angel HI]

Thanks to everyone who commented on this thread. I will continue to do some research, however from what I've read, I don't think either SSQQ or SQQ really matters to a beginner like me. I will try a course just to get started.
Well...exactly...just do it. In many threads, I have tried to get persons to understand that movement-wise the 2 are the same regardless of how we try to differentiate the rhythms, but, you are correct. This is way more than you need to concern yourself with now.

[Chris Stratton]

I have tried to get persons to understand that movement-wise the 2 are the same regardless of how we try to differentiate the rhythms

Movement wise they are not the same.

It's not the rhythm that dictates that, but the chosen type of movement.

There are four primary ways in which movement and rise and fall can interact (and some other less common ones)

1. Rise progressively during movement until the rise stops the movement with the feet together, then lower with a new movement eventually created during the lowering (waltz).

2. Rise and catch the movement temporarily with the feet together, then seperate the feet and lower progressively into a new movement (frequently in quickstep, occasionally in waltz and less frequently in foxtrot)

3. Rise while slowing but continuing to move past the foot, lower while speeding up again - classic SQQ foxtrot in either international or american form, also found some in waltz and quickstep.

4. Take two walking steps, close the feet with a minmal rise and fall on the third and fourth, then do it again - SSQQ foxtrot. This one is unique in that the rise and fall is nowhere near enough to be able to interchange energy with the speedup and slowdown of movement - if you had enough rise and fall to actually have a dynamic coupling between movement and rise and fall, people would say you were overdoing and dancing it with waltz rise. In effect this is supposed to be a walking dance, not a dynamic swinging one. It may not seem such a difference at the start where waltz would also be a walking dance without swing yet, but the difference is that waltz will properly develop a dynamic coupling between rise and fall and movement while this form of foxtrot will properly remain without one - the necessary physics to give it one would give anything but the desired character.

SSQQ does have a major technical lesson in common with the other styles - rolling all the way through the foot from heel to toe or toe to heel. But it doesn't share their opportunity to fully swing the body weight. In part because it doesn't have that, it may well present the best opportunity to work on the foot action.

[alanw]

Here in the UK, Ballroom foxtrot is the International Style, but for beginners, they are normally, at least where I have been taught, the "Social" or "Rhythm" foxtrot, which is in effect a slow quickstep, the steps are exactly the same as quickstep basics but to foxtrot timing.

The distinction between "Social " and "Rhythm" depends upon the terminology used by your particular school.

This is normally an introduction to the dance, for example the IDTA Social Award, from Bronze onwards (if you want to take the medal route) thee teacher will start to introduce the correct International Timing and Steps.

[Josh]

2. Rise and catch the movement temporarily with the feet together, then seperate the feet and lower progressively into a new movement (frequently in quickstep, occasionally in waltz and less frequently in foxtrot)

...

4. Take two walking steps, close the feet with a minmal rise and fall on the third and fourth, then do it again - SSQQ foxtrot. This one is unique in that the rise and fall is nowhere near enough to be able to interchange energy with the speedup and slowdown of movement - if you had enough rise and fall to actually have a dynamic coupling between movement and rise and fall, people would say you were overdoing and dancing it with waltz rise. In effect this is supposed to be a walking dance, not a dynamic swinging one. It may not seem such a difference at the start where waltz would also be a walking dance without swing yet, but the difference is that waltz will properly develop a dynamic coupling between rise and fall and movement while this form of foxtrot will properly remain without one - the necessary physics to give it one would give anything but the desired character.

SSQQ does have a major technical lesson in common with the other styles - rolling all the way through the foot from heel to toe or toe to heel. But it doesn't share their opportunity to fully swing the body weight. In part because it doesn't have that, it may well present the best opportunity to work on the foot action.

Good post Chris. In #2 I would just add that after the feet come together it's usually the case that the rise continues as the feet separate before the lowering happens, perhaps to a lesser extent in quickstep than waltz due to tempo, but still it happens.

What you point out in #4 is exactly why I break the rules when teaching this as students get a bit more advanced. There's no practical use of the rise and fall accepted for this dance anywhere else, so I dance a SSQQ basic step in american foxtrot with the same rise and fall used in waltz. Essentially it becomes a subdued waltz natural turn with a prep step. This is practically out of necessity--as a dancer becomes able to swing even reasonably well, dancing it any other way when the feet close is nearly impossible. Of course, by this time, the dancer has progressed enough where the dance has served most of its purpose and is not used as much anymore.

The same can be said of the reverse and natural turns and closed changes in foxtrot which are borrowed from waltz--I would not adapt the swing and rise and fall on these to match the flatter character of foxtrot. But essentially that's my point I guess--bronze american foxtrot simply can't have the character of real foxtrot because the feet are constantly closing.

[Chris Stratton]

Here in the UK, Ballroom foxtrot is the International Style, but for beginners, they are normally, at least where I have been taught, the "Social" or "Rhythm" foxtrot, which is in effect a slow quickstep, the steps are exactly the same as quickstep basics but to foxtrot timing.

The pattern across the floor and the timing are the same as quickstep, but the rise and fall are different. In the foxtrot version you lower where you feet closed, in the quickstep version you lower on the step where you separate your feet again.

[Chris Stratton]

so I dance a SSQQ basic step in american foxtrot with the same rise and fall used in waltz.

You won't ultimately be able to get waltz swing this way, because part of a well done waltz is turning the lowering into a downswing, creating new movement. Such a lowering would overspeed the initial slow of the next SSQQ foxtrot, which you cannot swing through in the way that you can swing through the S of SQQ by drifting the preceding quick beyond the barline and going right through to the next quick.

It takes quite a while to learn to add that dynamic to a waltz lowering though, and you probably could do the foxtrot figures with the kind of limited dynamic students use in waltz before they learn this.

SSQQ foxtrot is just not a dance where you can fully use your body weight, but it's primary educational role is in foot action and dance decorum, and it plays that role at a time in student's development when they would not be able to use their weight properly in the other dances either.

[Warren J. Dew]

Take two walking steps, close the feet with a minmal rise and fall on the third and fourth, then do it again - SSQQ foxtrot. This one is unique in that the rise and fall is nowhere near enough to be able to interchange energy with the speedup and slowdown of movement

I think the rise actually is enough to absorb the kinetic energy in rhythm foxtrot. Typically dancers in rhythm foxtrot are taking significantly smaller steps and are not moving across the floor as fast; since energy goes as the square of the velocity, but only linearly with altitude, a moderate decrease in velocity results in a substantial decrease in rise.

[waltzguy]

... so I dance a SSQQ basic step in american foxtrot with the same rise and fall used in waltz. Essentially it becomes a subdued waltz natural turn with a prep step.

Wow, I learn something everyday. This is quite true, I never saw it this way.

[Josh]

You won't ultimately be able to get waltz swing this way, because part of a well done waltz is turning the lowering into a downswing, creating new movement.

Exactly Chris, which is why I referred to it as a "subdued" waltz natural turn. Though I will follow a SSQQ turning basic with a SQQ spin turn, which does absorb the swing a bit even in foxtrot.

[waltzguy]

Here in the UK, Ballroom foxtrot is the International Style, but for beginners, they are normally, at least where I have been taught, the "Social" or "Rhythm" foxtrot, which is in effect a slow quickstep, the steps are exactly the same as quickstep basics but to foxtrot timing.

Great. I've been wondering about the "Social Foxtrot" that I read about from an English system (see earlier post from me in this thread).

[Josh]

Wow, I learn something everyday. This is quite true, I never saw it this way.

Just don't tell anyone I told you to dance it that way! :-) I'm just underscoring that the premise of bronze american foxtrot is fundamentally flawed, IMO, due to the conflicting goals of keeping it relatively flat along with bringing your feet together and swinging your body. Not that I don't like it, it can be fun to dance!

[waltzguy]

Just don't tell anyone I told you to dance it that way! :-) I'm just underscoring that the premise of bronze american foxtrot is fundamentally flawed, IMO, due to the conflicting goals of keeping it relatively flat along with bringing your feet together and swinging your body. Not that I don't like it, it can be fun to dance!

"Oh but Josh on DF said ..." ;)

I just think of Amer. bronze foxtrot as a totally different dance. I don't even think of it as a foxtrot in the technical sense as I know it in International Standard.

[tangotime]

Here in the UK, Ballroom foxtrot is the International Style, the "Social" or "Rhythm" foxtrot, which is in effect a slow quickstep, the steps are exactly the same as quickstep basics but to foxtrot timing.



The steps are not " exactly the same.. no lock steps, no impetus turns, no spin turns ,

The american style social f/t has been introduced and taught here for the past 2 yrs. Thats all I teach in beginners classes ( same for W.and T , with a few Intern. variations)

[Angel HI]

Movement wise they are not the same.
I am not going to argue this w/ you b/c I know that I am correct even if my ability to get you (others) to understand here in cyberspace.

SSQQ does have a major technical lesson in common with the other styles - rolling all the way through the foot from heel to toe or toe to heel. But it doesn't share their opportunity to fully swing the body weight.
Correct on both accounts, but, again, the above applies.

[Angel HI]

Exactly Chris, which is why I referred to it as a "subdued" waltz natural turn. Though I will follow a SSQQ turning basic with a SQQ spin turn, which does absorb the swing a bit even in foxtrot.
Exactly. It is this same movement, even if subdued, as you wrote, or underturned, as it would apply to his post, that allows such. But, he won't understand that.
Just don't tell anyone I told you to dance it that way! :-) I'm just underscoring that the premise of bronze american foxtrot is fundamentally flawed, IMO, due to the conflicting goals of keeping it relatively flat along with bringing your feet together and swinging your body. Not that I don't like it, it can be fun to dance!
I can't find a type large enough to post "DITTO".

[Chris Stratton]

Exactly. It is this same movement, even if subdued, as you wrote, or underturned, as it would apply to his post, that allows such. But, he won't understand that.

I can't find a type large enough to post "DITTO".

You can't have it both ways - you can't call it "the same movement" and then agree with a statement that calls it "fundamentally flawed" due to the conflict of its character with swing.

If it were the same movement, there would be no conflict.

The "conflict" comes about by trying to make this different dance body swing like a SQQ foxtrot, or a waltz, or a quickstep does. It's not supposed to - the conflict comes about when you try to make it something incompatible with it's character.

[Angel HI]

You can't have it both ways - The "conflict" comes about by trying to make this different dance body swing like a SQQ foxtrot, or a waltz, or a quickstep does. It's not supposed to -
But, it does. The only thing that it is not supposed to do is continue in the same manner...meaning that it is designed to come together (on a phantom step 4) as opposed to the continuity of the other. Let's look at it like this; there are 3 steps in the silver SQQ (as you would call it)...right? Can we say this is a step-swing-recover type of movement? Now, apply those same 3 steps to the familiarly called Bronze style, but w/ a close...step-swing-recover-close. No difference!, except that the dance is now instantly and incredibly much softer, smoother, and easier to lead/follow.

When moving from europe an embarrassing many years ago, this manner of "correcting" the social fox was one of the first things that my coaches taught me. In fact, I was severly chastized for teaching it in the familiar step-step-side-together/SSQQ manner. I was mandated to dance it like the int'l/amer silver. Thank God.

[Joe]

Hmph...if there's significant swing to recover from in the SSQQ movement, I fail to see it.

[Larinda McRaven]

I was mandated to dance it like the int'l/amer silver. Thank God.

I don't teach SSQQ that way, I giggle when I actuyally see people use the mans left foot as a "prep step" in bronze American Foxtrot. That is not the historical character of the dance or the modern day function of bronze foxtrot. I teach it as a walking and a rolling. I save step swing recover for the box rhythms.

[Chris Stratton]

But, it does. The only thing that it is not supposed to do is continue in the same manner...meaning that it is designed to come together (on a phantom step 4) as opposed to the continuity of the other.

It does not have a full body swing as in the others, because it does not permit you to generate a new downswing when lowering from the closing in the way that waltz does.

The reason it does not permit you to do this is that if you did, you'd overspeed the two slows. The reason that isn't a problem with the downswing in SQQ foxtrot is that we drift out the final quick to the point where we can swing right through a single undervalue slow into the next quick.

Let's look at it like this; there are 3 steps in the silver SQQ (as you would call it)...right? Can we say this is a step-swing-recover type of movement?

It's commonly said, but it's not accurate at all. It's actually swing down, swing up, drift over. And that's the problem - in SSQQ foxtrot you can't swing down, because you've got two slows at the bottom to wait out, so you are don't have the opportunity to release your body weight to generate movement.

For a dancer who has not yet discovered how to properly utilize the downswing in their swing dances, there may not be much difference. Most people step through their swing dances too - they don't know how to use their body weight there, because the practice of actually doing it is in conflict with a lot of the word explanations used in teaching. Teachers don't tend to actually encourage the real action until dealing with very experienced competitive students, because it's very easy to misuse your body weight and very unpleasant for your partner when you do. But when you do the swing dances right, they have a type of swing that is fundamentally incompatible with the concept for SSQQ foxtrot.

What SSQQ foxtrot has in common with the others is things like footwork and carriage - but not dynamics of movement.

[Angel HI]

CS, I agree w/ your last post (excepting, "It's commonly said, but it's not accurate at all. It's actually swing down, swing up, drift over. And that's the problem - in SSQQ foxtrot you can't swing down, because you've got two slows at the bottom to wait out, so you are don't have the opportunity to release your body weight to generate movement.")

As I said, it is sometimes difficult to put in to sufficient words in cyberspace what is sometimes intended. In my previous posting, I failed to communicate that when dancing in the way that I propose, the first step left (as LM said) doesn't really receive the swing...it is treated more as a prep for.

[Larinda McRaven]

Yeah, that is what I figured you were saying. Chris, he is using like a prep to an underturned natural over and over.

[pruthe]

I was looking at my DVIDA bronze manual on FT and they talk about characteristic "bounce action" on steps with SSQQ timing. It states bounce is achieved by slightly flexing then straightening knees as free foot passes standing foot. I'm thinking bounce combined with slight contra action l to r in upper body might be a good look. I personally don't like too flat of a look in doing SSQQ steps.

[Joe]

Yeah, that is what I figured you were saying. Chris, he is using like a prep to an underturned natural over and over.
That feels bizarre. When does the CBM for the "prep" occur after a previous set of SSQQ?

[Angel HI]

I was looking at my DVIDA bronze manual on FT and they talk about characteristic "bounce action" on steps with SSQQ timing. It states bounce is achieved by slightly flexing then straightening knees as free foot passes standing foot. I'm thinking bounce combined with slight contra action l to r in upper body might be a good look. I personally don't like too flat of a look in doing SSQQ steps.
Sorry to have been away and missed this. I really hate it when dancers bounce the Fox. Have no idea why DVIDA supports this. Fox is smooth, and its basic characteristic is hover...not bounce.

[fascination]

ditto angel...makes me all squirmy to be with a lead who is bouncing through an FT, unless he is new...even worse, a lead who is bouncing through a rumba..oy

[pruthe]

I guess it depends on what "bounce" really means in Dvida manual. I've seen people literally bounce up/down doing SSQQ and to me it looks a little dorky. On the other hand, if there is a smooth and slight lowering action during each & in &S&S&QQ sequence, I kind of like that look and was interpreting Dvida "bounce" as that. For me, that makes the SSQQ steps more interesting than a flat float. Of course, my interpretation of Dvida manual may not be what was intended.

[latingal]

*grin* in my very first class on social dancing we did bronze american foxtrot...I kept wondering as we danced, are we really supposed to be bouncing like this - really?

[soshedances]

Hate the bounce in foxtrot--doesn't fit the character, takes the elegance right out of the dance

[waltzguy]

Same here. Do not want any bouncing. Esp. for me in International Standard style. All progression, no bounce.

[Larinda McRaven]

Of course, my interpretation of Dvida manual may not be what was intended.

Does the manual descibe a "bounce action"?

[Terpsichorean Clod]

"Social Foxtrot has a characteristic 'bounce action' on the walks in figures with SSQQ timing. This bounce is achieved by slightly flexing then straightening the knees as the free foot passes the standing foot at the end of each walk."

[Larinda McRaven]

What most people find offensive is probably not the "bounce" itself.. but a bad bounce action that is either too exaggerated or more probably out of sync with the rolling of the foot. The word bounce may bring along with it a certain connotation that is not really the intended action.

Take into account that a teacher with a class of walk-ins trying to get them to "feel" a rhythm may exaggerate the action way beyond what they actually intend the dance to end up like.

So I think the problem is misundertanding how to achieve it and its rhythmical purpose.

[Angel HI]

Pruth and LM are correct. The interpretation of bounce is the crux of this issue. Now, unfortunately, I was told by a DVIDA teacher that the bounce was in fact this "flexing" that TC mentions, but it was done with an exaggerated intention, I believe, in an effort to create a distinct styling. It is this styling that I have issue with. TC stated that soc. fox has a characteristic bounce.... I do not think so. I beleive that it "could" have a more bouncy feel [given a particular beat/rhythm], but that the bounce is not necessarily characteristic, or definitive, of the dance. As I posted earlier, which CS took issue with, soc. fox can be danced beautifully w/o any bounce at all by dancing it w/ the characteristic step-swing-recover action of BR fox (silver).

Though I beleive that my preference is clear, I am not saying that either is better/worse...right/wrong. I am only trying to discourage the concept that soc fox has to have a bounce...because more often than not, as LM said, the term causes more confusion than its worth.

[Josh]

TC stated that soc. fox has a characteristic bounce.... I do not think so.

Actually TC was just quoting the DVIDA manual. Again, I think it was just making a general statement, and it doesn't need to be taken literally, or even at all for that matter. As for its rhythmical purpose, it's certainly not necessary, but may aid a new dancer with the rhythm.

[Chris Stratton]

As I posted earlier, which CS took issue with, soc. fox can be danced beautifully w/o any bounce at all by dancing it w/ the characteristic step-swing-recover action of BR fox (silver).

Removing the bounce and dancing it with a smooth rolling action does not give it the swinging character of continuity or international foxtrot; it just makes it not be bumpy.

I think two major reasons for the bounce are to feel the rhythm (which is not a part of the more gliding foxtrot forms, except as an occasional accent), and to give definition to each step at a point where that's still of concern in lead and follow - in marked contrast to the eventual point where we try to almost hide the transition between steps, matching the progress of our weight instead of distinctly moving our feet.

[Angel HI]

Actually TC was just quoting the DVIDA manual. Again, I think it was just making a general statement, and it doesn't need to be taken literally, or even at all for that matter. As for its rhythmical purpose, it's certainly not necessary, but may aid a new dancer with the rhythm.
I realized this, and was not criticizing TC at all. Though I agree w/ your reply, my point is only that it can be confusing to the student if taken too literally.

[etp777]

Going by some of dancing I've seen, I'd say it can be confusing to teachers, too. :)

[QPO]

Had to go back through the thread. I cant imagine that their is a bounce in any foxtrot American or Standard.

Do you think they should say Swing? It is suppose to be smooth and fluid, by swinging through the body slowly it would create the correct movement..

Bounce has such Latin conetations.


quote=soshedances;647681]Hate the bounce in foxtrot--doesn't fit the character, takes the elegance right out of the dance[/quote]

[etp777]

Yeah, first dance that comes to my mind with mention of bounce is samba, nothing smooth.

And if I'm wrong, I dont' want to hear it. Samba isn't one of my dances so I'm allowed to be wrong about it. ;)

[Chris Stratton]

Bounce has such Latin conetations.

Well, rhythm at least - and that's the point - bronze american foxtrot is often initially treated as a rhythmic dance rather than as a smooth one.

[Larinda McRaven]

Yes.

[DWise1]

I am new at dance and would like to learn the Foxtrot, however I’m finding that there are various styles available to choose from. I am interested only in social dancing (American style, as I live in the U.S.) and while some courses teach the ‘slow-slow-quick-quick’ style, others teach the ‘slow-quick-quick’ form. I was told that the s-s-q-q style is older and that s-q-q is considered to be more modern, is this the case? Before committing to a course, I'd like to know which form is more common, or considered to be correct? Thanks for any information that anyone can offer.

I don't know about "older" and "more modern". Here's the skinny:

Each ballroom dance is organized [to my knowledge and within the American system; dunno whether International follows suit but I think it does] on three levels: bronze, silver, and gold, which you will progress through in that order. In general, bronze is beginning level, get all the basics, feet close together. Silver is intermediate level in which (at least in smooth dances) you pass your feet and you work more on technique and shaping. Gold is advanced where you continue what you learned in silver, but now you will do steps in shadow and apart from each other, etc.

In Am. Foxtrot, you basically have two rhythms (3 if you count swing-and-sway): basic (or whatever ballroom calls it; I'm in the ballroom world but am not of it) which is SSQQ and box rhythm which is SQQ. In bronze, you primarily use basic rhythm, but you will use box rhythm in box steps and twinkles. In silver and gold, you use box rhythm almost exclusively, though a number of syllabus steps require you to syncopate.

So, start with bronze and use SSQQ and SQQ where they are needed. And just accept that you will be using both.

[tangotime]

Here's the skinny:

Each ballroom dance is organized [to my knowledge and within the American system; dunno whether International follows suit but I think it does] on three levels: bronze, silver, and gold,




Where do you think they got it from?? :rolleyes:

[Angel HI]

Well, rhythm at least - and that's the point - bronze american foxtrot is often initially treated as a rhythmic dance rather than as a smooth one.
Though I believe that I understand what you mean, I have never been told to approach it as a rhythm dance, nor have I ever seen it listed as a rhythm dance on any syllabus. But, again, I believe that I understand your point.

[tangotime]

Though I believe that I understand what you mean, I have never been told to approach it as a rhythm dance, nor have I ever seen it listed as a rhythm dance on any syllabus. But, again, I believe that I understand your point.




The reason " Rhythmical " got applied ?... consider the period that it was being introduced as a SOCIAL dance ,and then take into account the music of that era .

It was intended to reflect those times .


Even in todays marketplace, many studios ( and Socials ), tend to veer towards the more highly charged up tempi songs , as opposed to the more " sedate " ballad style of F/t, used in the Intern. style .

[Angel HI]

The reason " Rhythmical " got applied ?... consider the period that it was being introduced as a SOCIAL dance ,and then take into account the music of that era . It was intended to reflect those times.
This was my understanding, always. ...that it developed largely during the era of lindy/charleston/etc., and that the slower/smoother songs had a more rhythmic feel. I also recall learning that the Quick Fox (danced more rhythmically as a fox before developing into the now QS), became the deciding factor between those foxes danced rhythmically and those danced more smoothly.

[Chris Stratton]

I think Angel Hi got this, but when I was saying american foxtrot often gets initial treatment more as a rhythmic dance than a smooth one, I didn't mean that it's categorized as part of the rhythm program/syllabus, but simply that initial emphasis is more on the aspects of dance that are typically important in the rhythm dances and less on the kinds of things that are important in the smooth dances.

As might be obvious from the name, being on the beat and showing quite obviously that you are would be a primary characteristic. In contrast in the long run, for the swinging smooth/standard foxtrot the majority of the time in moving figures we are not stepping on beats, and we are generally trying not to show the individual steps but instead blend them seamlessly into the overlying pattern or trend. That's not necessarily a concept that brand new dancers are quite ready for, which may be part of why the initial approach ends up more rhythmic - the rhytmic approach fits the non-dancing public's assumptions of what is important to dance, and it's easy to describe, demonstrate and verify.

[Angel HI]

That's not necessarily a concept that brand new dancers are quite ready for, which may be part of why the initial approach ends up more rhythmic - the rhytmic approach fits the non-dancing public's assumptions of what is important to dance, and it's easy to describe, demonstrate and verify.
Now...though I have never done this, this better clarifies your point.