the quantal shift - good to great and fast?

[elisedance]

What if you wanted to move your dancing up rapidly - the goal being to reach open competitor ASAP. What would you want to do? And, what is there that you could do?

For example, is there any way one could do a week or two full-time retreat? Or is there a teacher/studio that springs to mind that teaches not only the body but the mentality of top level dancing?

:cool:

[dancepro]

What if you wanted to move your dancing up rapidly - the goal being to reach open competitor ASAP. What would you want to do? And, what is there that you could do?

For example, is there any way one could do a week or two full-time retreat? Or is there a teacher/studio that springs to mind that teaches not only the body but the mentality of top level dancing?

:cool:

I was lucky (or dumb:confused:) enough to get to a high level very fast. I didn't know what I had done until a two to three years after I retired. I was trying to get students to do what I had done with no success. I had to find out what I had done if I was to become a successful teacher and coach. Through several mentors I finally realized what I had done and what was done to me. It did take a while to see the patten that my teacher in England took me through. There was three things, that my main teacher (my dance dad) did that made a major shift in my dancing.
1) He told me to give up my ego
2) He told me to let go of my perceptions (feelings)
3) I did tons of focused mental and physical exercises (not dancing around with headless aim).
I choose to trust this teacher ("master" as my grandfather called him) with everything (my thinking as a dancer and my career as a dancer). I did as I was told with no doubt in my mind. I instinctively knew that it would be in my best interest to do as I was told with no hesitation. There was of cause times when my ego and perceptions stepped in. I would catch myself thinking this is crazy, weird or I can't believe he asking me to do this, but I did do it anyway. Suddenly after a very short while I found myself where I couldn't have imagined myself being only 8 month earlier.

I am sure you could do a training like a week or a long weekend. You would however have to find a teacher or a group of teachers that can/could tie together the mental aspect of dancing as well as the physical. I use to go to training camps like that, when I was a young amateur, in Europe. I have however not seem any training camps like that here. Most of the camps here are only into the physical part of dancing. Dancing on a high level includes both in perfect balance/harmony. You could do a week or long weekend of mind training and a week or long weekend of dancing training.
I am sure you already know of many dance teachers/coaches that can take care of the physical. There are several different mental training programs out there that you can do as week or long weekend trainings and some of them are very good for the aspiring dancer.

Good luck in your quest.

Dancepro

[elisedance]

As always, thank you DP.... I take your advice very much to heart.... :)

[barrefly]

elisedance,
Though I am not a dancer, I do coach/guide my daughter toward a career in dance and beleive this is the one area of dance that I hold the greatest amount of expertise in. We did not grow up in the B/L world, so please understand, this is just my take.

Added: Perhaps Dancepro can offer his/her advice on my take. I have been coaching my daughter for many years, and though she is very talented....she is what she is.


First, let us clarify that we are talking about a pair of dancers (partners) and not individuals. For example, I, as the follow, may have an understanding of my weak areas that I need to improve upon, and may come up with a program to accomplish this, but my partner may also have his weak areas and may not be so open to my suggestions for his improvement. Therefore, there must be a way to get both on the same page. Though it's possible that one has the perfect partnership and both think as one,...more than likely, the pair would need to utilize a third party that both trust to bring them to their goals.

Still, if we are talking about reality here, both dancers would have to have a high degree of potential to begin with. So let us assume this was the case, and they took on a coach/trainer to train them. Such trainer would have to be expert at taking dancers with high potential and molding them into top ranking dancers. (How many of those are out there?). What this trainer does to develop his/her dancers would depend on the dancers themselves. For example, the trainer may see a fault in the lead and set him up to take intense ballet training (to develop core strength and control?)....or the follow my have difficulty with turns and have her work with jazz experts....or gymnastic coaches to work on ones extensions/flexibility....etc. etc.
(I currently have my daughter working with a gymnastics coach, not only for her flexibility, but for lifts training as well).

O.K., now the trainer has them working with a top pro. B/L instructor, (I wouldn't go with the retreat thing....). They are beginning to look good, ...but are they simply doing what they have been taught, or are they dancing from the heart? It's the mentality of top level dancers that seperate the good from the great. It is also the most difficult to instill in a top level dancer. I can coach my daughter to be a good dancer,...but I can not teach her how to love/be inspired by, her dance.

Anyway, Happy New Year everyone.

[katandmouse]

I'm probably not one to talk because I have a long way to go to greatness and at my age will be hardpressed to even get there. But I can share what I've discovered that helped me make monumental leaps.

The key, I believe, is in right-brain learning, teaching and awareness. When I first started seriously studying ballroom which was about 3 1/2 years ago, I went to an American Smooth teacher because that was what I wanted to do. I had just taken his year long Standard syllabus group class, so when he asked me what I wanted to work on in my first lesson, I replied, "You've seen me dance for a year. You tell me what I should work on." He said, "You need swing." And so he proceeded to work on that for the entire 45 minutes. I got only a 2 minute explanation of what swing was. The remaining 43 minutes was dancing during which he constantly drew my awareness to what his body was doing, and what mine was. By the end of the 45 minutes, I had it. I felt my dancing had jumped up many levels. It was certainly very, very different. The next week he worked on lateral swing. The week after that release of the knee and use of the standing leg. And each time, he used the same technique. No talk. All action and awareness. After 3 weeks, my practice partner arrived home after a 3 week visit overseas. I found I could no longer dance with him. I felt like I hit a wall each time I tried. In just 3 weeks I felt I had advanced to where I had known others had taken years to arrive, and my teacher agreed.

I believe our body is our greatest instructor but we don't often listen. Instead, our brains become too cluttered with too many instructions that confuse our muscles. That confusion and clutter prevents us from putting all the pieces into a fluid whole. That teacher taught me how to become body aware, and becoming body aware, helped me put the pieces together quicker.

Since then, I've made it my passion to study how people learn and particularly, the best way for dancers or athletes to learn. I've found nothing to indicate that left brain analytical thinking is really as efficient as right brain.

Currently I study with an Italian who is very right brained. He explains very little. Instead he demonstrates. I watch, and as I do, I turn it into a right brain exercise. Instead of analyzing what he is doing with his head, feet, hips and shoulders, I imagine what that must feel like. I also create a mental picture of what that must look like when I do it. Then I practice, practice, practice - ALONE. I don't analyze or criticize. I allow myself to make mistakes, but I try and try again, over and over. I let my mind be the passenger and my body the driver. The mind then becomes the observer, watching, feeling and listening to what my body is doing. Eventually, I get it. My body knows it and I have this realization that what I'm actually feeling is what I imagined it would feel like when I watched my teacher demonstrate. Then I allow my mind to be a little more engaged and to pay attention to what my body parts are doing. I check in to see what my feet are doing, where my head is, etc. And at that time, the instructions I received in the past come into play and reaffirm for me that what I'm doing must be right. The instructions become my litmus test of whether or not I'm doing it right instead of the driving force which I gave my body permission to be.

(By the way, you can still apply these techniques if you have a left-brained teacher. Just convert what he tells you into awareness.)

I honestly believe right-brain learning is the way to go if you want to advance quickly. Doesn't mean you won't have lots of work ahead of you, though. It takes time to build the musculature, coordination, and muscle memories you need. But keeping your analytical brain out of it as much as possible will allow your muscles to learn new skills on their own at a much faster rate without distraction. From what I've discovered, muscles have a "mind of their own," and since they should be the driving force, it's just best to let them drive.

[waltzguy]

Wow, some excellent posts. Still thinking about this topic (no pun intended).

[elisedance]

This is fascinating. Mostly because 'learing ballroom' has always been (in my experience) very much about achieving the written (and hence logical) description in 'the book' and yet the three first posts on the subject - all written by follwers I hasten to add - do the opposite and focus on the sensed, the mental state and repetition learning. while I am convinced that these are very important - and likely most important methods to learn following, I wonder if they can be achieved without first mastering basics of foot action, step etc. The danger would be that you end up a brilliant follower continually held back by flaws in basics such as 'heel turns', 'toe-heel actions' or keeping the hips up :)

I'm sure we are going to get a very different picture once the leads kick in ;) but I have learned so much already...

[and123]

Depends on whether your goal of being able to hold your own in Open includes all of the minutiae that people on the slower track learn along the way, or knowing just enough to accomplish the Open "look", however you wish to define that. As you point out, I'm sure that skipping over some things would bite you in the butt someday, and that a well-trained judge could see the difference. Then there's the whole lead-follow vs. set routines argument. I'm personally in the lead-follow camp, and I believe having that skill will ultimately serve me better than the ability to memorize and regurgitate a complicated routine in the comp floor (but that's a whole 'nother thread :p)

[waltzguy]

I'm sure we are going to get a very different picture once the leads kick in ;)

One lead already has. :) Although didn't write much. :D

[Warren J. Dew]

I'm sure we are going to get a very different picture once the leads kick in ;)

Well, your subject line talks about "and fast". Remember that quote someone mentioned about leads taking 10 years where follows take 3? That may be relevant here.

[fascination]

Depends on whether your goal of being able to hold your own in Open includes all of the minutiae that people on the slower track learn along the way, or knowing just enough to accomplish the Open "look", however you wish to define that. As you point out, I'm sure that skipping over some things would bite you in the butt someday, and that a well-trained judge could see the difference. Then there's the whole lead-follow vs. set routines argument. I'm personally in the lead-follow camp, and I believe having that skill will ultimately serve me better than the ability to memorize and regurgitate a complicated routine in the comp floor (but that's a whole 'nother thread :p)excellent points and I totally agree

[dancepro]

This is fascinating. Mostly because 'learing ballroom' has always been (in my experience) very much about achieving the written (and hence logical) description in 'the book' and yet the three first posts on the subject - all written by follwers I hasten to add - do the opposite and focus on the sensed, the mental state and repetition learning. while I am convinced that these are very important - and likely most important methods to learn following, I wonder if they can be achieved without first mastering basics of foot action, step etc. The danger would be that you end up a brilliant follower continually held back by flaws in basics such as 'heel turns', 'toe-heel actions' or keeping the hips up :)

I'm sure we are going to get a very different picture once the leads kick in ;) but I have learned so much already...

My teacher told me to never look at that "d..." book. He said that that book had held more dancers back from realizing their potential then anything else. So as soon as I finished my exam I packed the book in a book and put it on the loft. I actually didn't open the box until I came to the US and students were asking me question in regards to the book. I never looked at the book in the 5 years after my exam and I competed as a professional. After my first 3 month working with my main teacher I finally asked if we could work on my foot work. He looked at me with big surprise. One of my other teachers had complained about my heel turns. He (my main teacher) had not mentioned foot work in the 3 month that I worked with him. He then proceeded to show me the possibilities of footwork he never showed me where the possibilities went. He was of the Body school (he was actually the founder of the Body school) so he believed the correct body actions would automatically create the correct foot work. He then had me practice these possibilities with coins...again repetitions. He did the same kind of drills with my partner...only he did the man's drill's (the 4 jobs of the man).
In all the years that I have been teaching and coaching I have always found that students that are willing to do drills become the best dancers. Of cause when my partner and I have worked with kids this is what we have always done with them.

Dancepro

[dancepro]

Well, your subject line talks about "and fast". Remember that quote someone mentioned about leads taking 10 years where follows take 3? That may be relevant here.

That is if you are on the slow track or should I say average track. It doesn't need to take that long at all :)

Dancepro

[katandmouse]

...focus on the sensed, the mental state and repetition learning. while I am convinced that these are very important - and likely most important methods to learn following, I wonder if they can be achieved without first mastering basics of foot action, step etc. The danger would be that you end up a brilliant follower continually held back by flaws in basics such as 'heel turns', 'toe-heel actions' or keeping the hips up :)


When I first started to learn foxtrot, my first teacher told me one of my goals when moving was to achieve the heel/toe position, where one foot is on the toe with heel up, the other on the heel with toe up. I practiced that incessantly for hours trying to land that position and could never do it. I was always out of balance. Eventually I gave up.

A year later when I gave up the cerebral approach to learning for the right brain approach, I acquired that skill in a very different way. Instead of striving for the details, I decided to strive for the bigger picture, that of quality movement. I did feather step, 3 step over and over again. Of course, I knew what those steps were already, but when I practiced them I didn't think about each little detail. I just told my body to do it, and then my brain went along for the ride sending little adjustments to my muscles if things didn't feel or look right, but mostly just remaining the silent observer as my body tried to make sense of it all and put it all together.

When I felt like I had achieved my goal, I looked down at my feet and to my surprise I was passing through that heel/toe position perfectly on balance. It came quite naturally as a result of the movement of my weight across my feet.

I achieved that goal in a very different way than that first teacher had tried to teach it to me. And what I learned that was even more important, was that that should not have been a goal in the first place! Technical details are only there to help us acquire the bigger picture or as litmus tests to help us determine if we are doing it correctly. But they are not the end all. Too many dance students forget that along the way. So do some teachers.

I recommend listening to Luca Barrichi's lecture on "Form Follows Function" for more on this subject. I also recommend reading "The Inner Game of Music" to learn how to silence the brain chatter and open your body up to learning through awareness.

[katandmouse]

... He was of the Body school (he was actually the founder of the Body school) so he believed the correct body actions would automatically create the correct foot work.
Dancepro

I totally believe that too! I guess I'm of the Body School. However, sometimes it's hard to get the body correct, so being shown the correct foot work can sometimes correct the body. (One has to be careful not to make that the priority though which can easily happen if you focus too much on the details.)

Sounds like you had a great teacher.

[elisedance]

What if you wanted to move your dancing up rapidly - the goal being to reach open competitor ASAP. What would you want to do? And, what is there that you could do?

For example, is there any way one could do a week or two full-time retreat? Or is there a teacher/studio that springs to mind that teaches not only the body but the mentality of top level dancing?


Depends on whether your goal of being able to hold your own in Open includes all of the minutiae that people on the slower track learn along the way, or knowing just enough to accomplish the Open "look", however you wish to define that. As you point out, I'm sure that skipping over some things would bite you in the butt someday, and that a well-trained judge could see the difference. Then there's the whole lead-follow vs. set routines argument. I'm personally in the lead-follow camp, and I believe having that skill will ultimately serve me better than the ability to memorize and regurgitate a complicated routine in the comp floor (but that's a whole 'nother thread :p)
(my bold face)

Perhaps I should have expanded more but to my mind 'top level dancing is just that and not your interpretation of short-cutting to "the open look". My question is not how to rapidly gain the veneer of an open top level dancer but how to speed up the process of becoming a top level dancer with all the essentials in place. I think the other replies interpreted my question exactly like that and as one who has been taught mostly by the body-first mind-second school I find their approaches fascinating. The point I am gleening - and that may be particularly relevant for followers - is that there may be a different and maybe more relevant method of learning than focusing on one bit at a time and trying to get it into 'motor memory'.

Thus the question remains - are there ways to speed up the learning process to get to the goal of being a top-level dancer either by may I call it conventional hard work with the body (such as at a retreat in London say) or by methods that maybe most of us have not considered (such as suggested here by dancepro and katandmouse).

[elisedance]

That is if you are on the slow track or should I say average track. It doesn't need to take that long at all :)


:uplaugh:

[I am so tired of trying to negate that particular line....]

[Warren J. Dew]

That is if you are on the slow track or should I say average track. It doesn't need to take that long at all :)

All the cases I know of rapid advancement such as you describe involve a lady dancing with a more experienced partner. For example, you've mentioned that your partner was more experienced, and I believe the other two cases on this thread are amateur ladies dancing with a professional partner at least some of the time.

While a man is also helped by having a more experienced partner, I think it works differently. For example, while Lynn Marriner jumped right to the top with Schiavo, it took quite a few years for Luca to do the same thing with Lorraine Sinkinson. In my opinion, this is because of the asymmetry of the lead/follow relationship, although as someone else pointed out, it might just be because men learn slower.

[elisedance]

So as I understand it, you are suggesting that more 'track time' will do it - and is also the best way forward?


While a man is also helped by having a more experienced partner, I think it works differently. For example, while Lynn Marriner jumped right to the top with Schiavo, it took quite a few years for Luca to do the same thing with Lorraine Sinkinson. In my opinion, this is because of the asymmetry of the lead/follow relationship, although as someone else pointed out, it might just be because men learn slower.

Or it might just be because Lynn was a more talented learner :rolleyes: (note I do not say dancer... its not the same thing). The point being if you tried to do a (psuedo) scientific test and took 10 mid level leads and follows and matched them with corresponding stars - on average would the follows come to speed faster? Frankly I have no idea but I imagine it would be about the same...

I had heard wind of training camps in Europe (never heard of one in NA - love to know if anyone has info) dedicated to high-level dancing but I have failed to find any.

[biggestbox]

Many good things have been said about developing good dancing and training habits. I would just add, that it is very very important to be in good shape. For men, I would try to get my body around 7-9 percent body fat and a bit lower during competition season. Woman can be higher. Strength, flexibility and power and all critical. If you want to rise quickly in the open levels I would suggest a minimum of 2 hrs at the gym daily on top of dance practice. A couple of years ago I took a 6 month break from dance and hit the gym 4 hrs a day. (2 two-hour sessions) When I came back, my dancing had improved just from being physically better. Get a good program for stretching, weight lifting, plyometrics, and cardio.

[star_gazer]

I was always looking for ways to speed things up and my kids obliged because they wanted to be considered good dancers. Recently someone advised me to come up with a "5-year plan." I think that makes lots of sense. How you fill in the five years, the other posters have addressed.

[elisedance]

Many good things have been said about developing good dancing and training habits. I would just add, that it is very very important to be in good shape. For men, I would try to get my body around 7-9 percent body fat and a bit lower during competition season. Woman can be higher. Strength, flexibility and power and all critical. If you want to rise quickly in the open levels I would suggest a minimum of 2 hrs at the gym daily on top of dance practice. A couple of years ago I took a 6 month break from dance and hit the gym 4 hrs a day. (2 two-hour sessions) When I came back, my dancing had improved just from being physically better. Get a good program for stretching, weight lifting, plyometrics, and cardio.


Great advice. Up to now I have relied on dancing itself for excersize (though I do stretching in addition). I've managed to bring my weight into range by diet (I seem to be good at that) but gym is a reluctant but essential resolution...

Interestingly, however, a dancer I know is in superb physical condition but looks awful when she dances. I was wondering - can one be TOO fit? Have too taught muscles to dance well? In particular for a follower, I feel like she is muscle bound. Is that also possible?

[_malakawa_]

I was lucky (or dumb:confused:) enough to get to a high level very fast. I didn't know what I had done until a two to three years after I retired. I was trying to get students to do what I had done with no success. I had to find out what I had done if I was to become a successful teacher and coach. Through several mentors I finally realized what I had done and what was done to me. It did take a while to see the patten that my teacher in England took me through. There was three things, that my main teacher (my dance dad) did that made a major shift in my dancing.
1) He told me to give up my ego
2) He told me to let go of my perceptions (feelings)
3) I did tons of focused mental and physical exercises (not dancing around with headless aim).
I choose to trust this teacher ("master" as my grandfather called him) with everything (my thinking as a dancer and my career as a dancer). I did as I was told with no doubt in my mind. I instinctively knew that it would be in my best interest to do as I was told with no hesitation. There was of cause times when my ego and perceptions stepped in. I would catch myself thinking this is crazy, weird or I can't believe he asking me to do this, but I did do it anyway. Suddenly after a very short while I found myself where I couldn't have imagined myself being only 8 month earlier.

I am sure you could do a training like a week or a long weekend. You would however have to find a teacher or a group of teachers that can/could tie together the mental aspect of dancing as well as the physical. I use to go to training camps like that, when I was a young amateur, in Europe. I have however not seem any training camps like that here. Most of the camps here are only into the physical part of dancing. Dancing on a high level includes both in perfect balance/harmony. You could do a week or long weekend of mind training and a week or long weekend of dancing training.
I am sure you already know of many dance teachers/coaches that can take care of the physical. There are several different mental training programs out there that you can do as week or long weekend trainings and some of them are very good for the aspiring dancer.

Good luck in your quest.

Dancepro


this is one of the best posts ever.

in general, dancing in Europe is different than in here. there is no (or just in a few countries) a Pro/ am Couples and competitions. I actually never heard about pro/am until I got here. :cool:

in europe is all about competitive dancing, and Amateurs have, i can say, even better status than professionals (except the first 6 couples)

dancing camps are so good. after practicing all day, when we will go back home, i still wanted to practice. all the information were new and fresh.

well, i miss that a lot. i hope that in a close future i will organize it here with teachers from England.

[elisedance]

then please keep me on your mailing list MK. I'm actually astonished that there are no 'masterclass' retreats in N america. Its particularly curious since there are many such to learn musical instruments - I went to one last summer.

IF anyone reading this wants to organize one please do let this intereted customer know.

Also, you mention dance camps in Europe. Do you know how I might find out about these? England would be particularly great as then there would be no language issue...

[elisedance]

By the way, I agree fully with your comment on dancepro's post. It needs to be read and reread ...

[wooh]

Interestingly, however, a dancer I know is in superb physical condition but looks awful when she dances. I was wondering - can one be TOO fit? Have too taught muscles to dance well? In particular for a follower, I feel like she is muscle bound. Is that also possible?

Her workouts are probably just not balancing the flexibility. I know a woman in her 40s with an absolutely KILLER body (after a few kids too.) She's very muscular but still very flexible.

[elisedance]

That must be it Wooh. Unfortunately, she's not very friendly so I can't talk to her about it...

[Warren J. Dew]

Or it might just be because Lynn was a more talented learner :rolleyes:

Possibly. If so, though, there are a lot of talented ladies. When Luca and Amanda split up and switched partners with the Sinkinsons, Amanda immediately jumped to second with Andrew Sinkinson had been, while Lorraine Sinkinson initially had to be satisfied with Luca's fourth. Charlotte Jorgensen and an American lady whose name I don't recall also made the British final dancing with Andrew. In the U.S., Kathryn Schaffer jumped to first place in less than a year after starting to dance with Victor Veyrasset.

Meanwhile, no other man at that level has improved even as quickly as Luca with this technique. Tony Dokman's experience is probably more typical. You can say they are slow learners if you want, but if so, the evidence is that all men are slow learners.

So as I understand it, you are suggesting that more 'track time' will do it - and is also the best way forward?

If this was also directed at me, I think practice is important, but there's more to it than that. As dancepro suggests, you have to give up your ego and preconceptions, and the practices and exercises must be focused on specific improvements, not just repetition for repetition's sake. Aside from that, I think what she suggests will work well for ladies, with the caveat that you need a coach and a partner that are at a level that will facilitate that technique.

[barrefly]

I have always found that students that are willing to do drills become the best dancers. Of cause when my partner and I have worked with kids this is what we have always done with them.

Dancepro

For my daughter, and having trained many years in ballet,...."not" doing drills,...is "not" an option. It takes a patient instuctor that drills their students until they have it right.....but that is what it's all about,....right?

[Casey]

dancesportinfo lists Adele Preston and Eleny Fotinos as dancing w/ Andrew Sinkinson w/ both making the final. Are you thinking of one of them, Warren J. Dew?

[Warren J. Dew]

dancesportinfo lists Adele Preston and Eleny Fotinos as dancing w/ Andrew Sinkinson w/ both making the final. Are you thinking of one of them, Warren J. Dew?

Yes, Eleny Fotinos, thanks. I think Adele had already done pretty well with a previous partner.

[dancepro]

I totally believe that too! I guess I'm of the Body School. However, sometimes it's hard to get the body correct, so being shown the correct foot work can sometimes correct the body. (One has to be careful not to make that the priority though which can easily happen if you focus too much on the details.)

Sounds like you had a great teacher.

In my opinion he was the best, a true master. He was actually known as being one of the best teachers that have ever lived.

Dancepro

[katandmouse]

In my opinion he was the best, a true master. He was actually known as being one of the best teachers that have ever lived.

Dancepro

Can you say who?

[_malakawa_]

then please keep me on your mailing list MK. I'm actually astonished that there are no 'masterclass' retreats in N america. Its particularly curious since there are many such to learn musical instruments - I went to one last summer.

IF anyone reading this wants to organize one please do let this intereted customer know.

Also, you mention dance camps in Europe. Do you know how I might find out about these? England would be particularly great as then there would be no language issue...

well, i will make a thread here. i am thinking to do that around july or august when is not so many competitions and people are more focused on practicing.

one of the coaches and teachers I am planning to have are Ralf Müller & Olga Müller Omeltchenko, barbara ambroz, ruud vermey, michael stilianos, beata,hazel fletcher .....

when it comes to camps in england. i really don't know. I know about camps in slovania and italy. but language will not be a problem, because there are couples all over the world so all coaches and teachers are speaking english.

[katandmouse]

then please keep me on your mailing list MK. I'm actually astonished that there are no 'masterclass' retreats in N america. Its particularly curious since there are many such to learn musical instruments - I went to one last summer.

IF anyone reading this wants to organize one please do let this intereted customer know.

You just missed one in San Francisco, Holiday Ball and Dance Camp put on by Stephan Krauel. Google it as I'm not sure they allow URLs in these posts.

[katandmouse]

...
Interestingly, however, a dancer I know is in superb physical condition but looks awful when she dances. I was wondering - can one be TOO fit? Have too taught muscles to dance well?

Being fit does not a dancer make.
It only helps.
One still needs to learn to dance.
That's the icing on the cake (beefcake;)

[dancepro]

Many good things have been said about developing good dancing and training habits. I would just add, that it is very very important to be in good shape. For men, I would try to get my body around 7-9 percent body fat and a bit lower during competition season. Woman can be higher. Strength, flexibility and power and all critical. If you want to rise quickly in the open levels I would suggest a minimum of 2 hrs at the gym daily on top of dance practice. A couple of years ago I took a 6 month break from dance and hit the gym 4 hrs a day. (2 two-hour sessions) When I came back, my dancing had improved just from being physically better. Get a good program for stretching, weight lifting, plyometrics, and cardio.

The need to be fit is also a question of what school of thought you follow. Of cause you do need to be somewhat fit, but going to a gym is not necessary. My partner and I have never been to a gym. I have actually never been to a gym in my life and I am not planning to either. Many top standard dancer (latin dancer are a different story) that are using the Body school or the Square school never goes to a gym to get fit.
You do need to be able to dance 5 dances in a row as you need to do that to do most semi-finals and most finals (the International is at least one exception). It is however easy to get fit enough to do that. It is funny to me to see people warm up and be flexible in all kind of ways and then they go on the floor and be as stiff as a board. Many of my fellow competitors, my partner and I used to laugh at that. None of us were as flexible as they were, but we made semifinals and finals, and they didn't.

If people want to go to a gym, they are of cause very welcome. But it is not necessary to become a good dancer.

Dancepro

[dancepro]

Interestingly, however, a dancer I know is in superb physical condition but looks awful when she dances. I was wondering - can one be TOO fit? Have too taught muscles to dance well? In particular for a follower, I feel like she is muscle bound. Is that also possible?

Yes, I think fitness can sometimes be a hindrance. You will not learn to be efficient if you are fit enough to muscle yourself through the dance. All my teachers always talked about being efficient and not working hard.

Dancepro

[dancepro]

then please keep me on your mailing list MK. I'm actually astonished that there are no 'masterclass' retreats in N america. Its particularly curious since there are many such to learn musical instruments - I went to one last summer.

IF anyone reading this wants to organize one please do let this intereted customer know.

Also, you mention dance camps in Europe. Do you know how I might find out about these? England would be particularly great as then there would be no language issue...

I have not heard of dance camps in England like that. They have them in Denmark, Germany and Italy.
I did three camps like that here in the US. There was workshops in dancing, mental approach, pilates, nutrition, stress prevention (body), grooming and many other topics. It was however not well attended. Most dancers only wanted the dance part and as it was a weekend training it was sold as a package. They were not ready for it here or at least not in Los Angeles. It might be different now (this was 5 years ago). Maybe they are more ready for this on the East Coast.

Dancepro

[katandmouse]

Yes, I think fitness can sometimes be a hindrance. You will not learn to be efficient if you are fit enough to muscle yourself through the dance. All my teachers always talked about being efficient and not working hard.

Dancepro

I started working with a private Pilates teacher after a debilitating back injury. The core strength I developed definitely helped my dancing, particularly my balance, but how I think my dancing benefits from my training mostly, though, is not the strength but the efficiency as you mention.

My Pilates teacher was trained in "neural-muscular reprogramming." Through her I've learned how to target the exact muscles I need to get the job done and to keep the antagonists out of the picture. When you get the hang of that, you'll see that very little strength goes a long way. In fact, you can develop super-human strength with a minimum of effort, and minimum effort means greater endurance and less stress; both contribute to better dancing.

Some people have efficient use of their muscles by birth, others like myself with an injury or who have had a lifetime of repetitive stress patterns and bad habits, may need training. Now we're getting into another passion of mine - that of achieving bio-mechanical harmony. Don't get me started (at least in this thread :)

[dancepro]

one of the coaches and teachers I am planning to have are Ralf Müller & Olga Müller Omeltchenko, barbara ambroz, ruud vermey, michael stilianos, beata,hazel fletcher .....


So your dance camp is a latin camp not a standard camp. I think elisedance does standard as far as I can see on the picture.

Dancepro

[_malakawa_]

So your dance camp is a latin camp not a standard camp. I think elisedance does standard as far as I can see on the picture.

Dancepro


not only latin. muller is for ballroom, ruud is dance psychologist, barbara & natasa ambroz are great for both.

i also need to check with slavik whom else. he knows almost all standard coaches from europe. i don't know them that much, because i start dancing standard quite late.

[Corne]

I know about the Ischia-Capri Open that is held annually (?) in Italy in April timeframe. Would this be a good example of a training camp for dancing ? Pity they don't have a schedule of events on the site.

The link is to 2007 event, page is in english.
h t t p : / / utenti . lycos . it / jerryabrate / page17 . html

[waltzgirl]

Elise, I'd second the recommendation for Pilates. It not only is a great workout, but it increases body awareness. And the find of fitness it creates is totally compatible with dance.

[dancepro]

not only latin. muller is for ballroom, ruud is dance psychologist, barbara & natasa ambroz are great for both.

i also need to check with slavik whom else. he knows almost all standard coaches from europe. i don't know them that much, because i start dancing standard quite late.


I only ever saw Ralph and Olga dance Latin, so I have no idea what their quality of standard is. They were good in Latin.

IMO you need to make sure you don't bring in too many coaches that has conflicting ideas. If you do you can make students more confused then helping them reach new and higher levels of dancing. This is just my opinion, of cause you can do whatever you want to do.

Good luck with your camp.

Dancepro

[_malakawa_]

I only ever saw Ralph and Olga dance Latin, so I have no idea what their quality of standard is. They were good in Latin.

IMO you need to make sure you don't bring in too many coaches that has conflicting ideas. If you do you can make students more confused then helping them reach new and higher levels of dancing. This is just my opinion, of cause you can do whatever you want to do.

Good luck with your camp.

Dancepro


i know. don't worry. this is just an idea for summer.

[dancepro]

i know. don't worry. this is just an idea for summer.

I am not worried:). I am sure you know what you are doing. I was just thinking out laud.

Once again all the best with the camp.

Dancepro

[elisedance]

not only latin. muller is for ballroom, ruud is dance psychologist, barbara & natasa ambroz are great for both.

i also need to check with slavik whom else. he knows almost all standard coaches from europe. i don't know them that much, because i start dancing standard quite late.

why don't you ask dancepro :roll: ;)

[elisedance]

oh, and DP is right - I only do standard.
[so you saw my pics dancepro :roll:]

[elisedance]

I know about the Ischia-Capri Open that is held annually (?) in Italy in April timeframe. Would this be a good example of a training camp for dancing ? Pity they don't have a schedule of events on the site.

The link is to 2007 event, page is in english.
h t t p : / / utenti . lycos . it / jerryabrate / page17 . html

thanks for the link - it looked interesting but, as you say, it seems to have been only offered in 07

[ashybang]

Yes, Eleny Fotinos, thanks. I think Adele had already done pretty well with a previous partner.

I remember Adele dancing with David Griffin. They had excellent results.

[elisedance]

hi AB - have you heard of any advanced (adult) ballroom 'camps' in England?

[Josh]

There have been some good and interesting posts, and I have enjoyed reading them very much...

All thinking and understanding with no resulting action (and hence feeling) does not a good dancer make. Similarly, while all feeling with no knowledge to support the feeling may get a dancer to a certain level, at some point a lack of understanding is bound to present stumbling blocks about how to develop further. Perhaps both might be good? Knowing the "whys" is essential, IMO, but besides just knowing, we obviously have to DO something about it in order to actually improve.

This is just based on my own experience, and yours may differ. But when I have obtained logical direction about what to do and how to do it and why I should do it that way, and then when I work hard and smart based on that, I get dramatic results in short periods of time. It must be internalized into the muscles, and that's where the feeling comes into play for me. After it's internalized and being felt, then the thinking stops. But IME, if there's no understanding behind the feeling, the progress will be short-lived and temporary. Again, ymmv, and everyone's different...

As far as technique and the understanding of it goes, again, people have different ways of learning. Technique should, IMO, support good dancing and not restrict it. Ignoring standard technique as a general rule is bound to cause more harm than good, but following it as "gospel truth" would also be harmful. If the technique supports good dancing in a particular case, use it--if an unconventional approach supports good dancing in a particular case, go that route.

[katandmouse]

There have been some good and interesting posts, and I have enjoyed reading them very much...

All thinking and understanding with no resulting action (and hence feeling) does not a good dancer make. Similarly, while all feeling with no knowledge to support the feeling may get a dancer to a certain level, at some point a lack of understanding is bound to present stumbling blocks about how to develop further.

Having just had a discussion on this with a friend of mine, I've come to realize that this is easily misunderstood. Learning with the right brain and with awareness does not at all mean having no knowledge! It's how we put that information to use that makes the difference. Do you strive to acquire perfect feet and perfect posture, or do you strive to acquire beautiful dancing? That, I think, is the difference in approach. One puts much attention on the details, while another puts awareness on the entire package and the final result. Of course, everyone here will say, "My goal is beautiful dancing," but I would venture to say that some who say that actually don't work towards that goal primarily because they, unfortunately, get too caught up in the details, and in the process make this all much more difficult than it is.

To each his own, though. It's difficult for left-brain learners to switch to the right side and vice versa. It took the brain scientist, Jill Bolte Taylor, getting a stroke to make the switch! (Interestingly, she now purposely does activities each day to stay on the right.) From my experience and the positive results I've gotten from a right-brain approach, I think it would behoove everyone to give this approach a try. Problem is I'm still having a hard time explaining what this approach is to left-brain people. They take my explanations and left-brain it! :-)

[katandmouse]

Try this. On a nice day, sit outside in a rocker and rock. Close your eyes and listen to the sounds around you. Don't analyze. By that I mean, don't even put labels on anything. If you hear a bird, don't think crow or duck, don't even think bird. If a car honks, don't think car. Just be aware.

Once you can sense and be with your environment without the distraction of analysis, tune into what your body is doing as it's rocking. Again, don't analyze. Just observe and notice that you can continue rocking purposely without analyzing it.

Then pay attention to which muscles are engaging as you rock. Which one engages first? Which one second? Where does the movement initiate? What do your feet do as you rock forward? What do they do when you rock backward? How about your arms? If they're sitting on armrests, are they involved? How about your back? Is it involved? And what about your neck?

Finally, did your rocking become harder or easier to do after you started to analyze it? Was it better or worse?

[elisedance]

There have been some good and interesting posts, and I have enjoyed reading them very much...

All thinking and understanding with no resulting action (and hence feeling) does not a good dancer make. Similarly, while all feeling with no knowledge to support the feeling may get a dancer to a certain level, at some point a lack of understanding is bound to present stumbling blocks about how to develop further. Perhaps both might be good? Knowing the "whys" is essential, IMO, but besides just knowing, we obviously have to DO something about it in order to actually improve.

This is just based on my own experience, and yours may differ. But when I have obtained logical direction about what to do and how to do it and why I should do it that way, and then when I work hard and smart based on that, I get dramatic results in short periods of time. It must be internalized into the muscles, and that's where the feeling comes into play for me. After it's internalized and being felt, then the thinking stops. But IME, if there's no understanding behind the feeling, the progress will be short-lived and temporary. Again, ymmv, and everyone's different...

As far as technique and the understanding of it goes, again, people have different ways of learning. Technique should, IMO, support good dancing and not restrict it. Ignoring standard technique as a general rule is bound to cause more harm than good, but following it as "gospel truth" would also be harmful. If the technique supports good dancing in a particular case, use it--if an unconventional approach supports good dancing in a particular case, go that route.


Perhaps there is a real difference here between leaders and followers? I'm generally a left brained (for want of a better term) person - relying on observation deduction and rigorous conclusion - thats what I do for a living. However, under that I'm also very right brained and can not live without letting that part of me have free range - indeed, I think its that part that distinguishes me from my competition in my career. I have always approached dance training with the part of my brain that I am more confident of (the left is by its nature easier to rely on at least in our western society). However, when I read the posts by dancepro and KaM it resonates very deeply since effective following demands that whatever I have learned I have to put it second to my partners lead. Frankly, I don't think many leads realize this - if you do something wrong its actually my job to also do it wrong! This goes from timing, step directions, foot rise, body sway - just everything - as a follower I must do that to the exclusion of my logic or training. And, not only that, I must do it subconsciously, automatically.

Even when the lead is as good as I can dance (I avoid the term perfect since at my level I have no (left brained) idea what that is) my body is still reflecting (and I hasten to add building on since following is not a passive activity) the mood generated by the lead. I am at my best following when I am NOT left brained when dancing is just that, a body experience.

I suspect that at its epogee this is also the case for the lead but that getting there may take longer than it does for the follow (which touches on the earlier point about how long a lead and a follow must train but I hasten to add it does not finish there.

How much does one have to learn in order to let 'right brained' thinking take over? I don't know I suspect more than some of the discussion above but also less than suggested in your post. Indeed, the first moment a follower senses the glory of partner dance she has probably just entered right-brained thinking - and that could be from the first well executed step...

[DanceMentor]

I think there tends to be an ever increasing muscle memory, and what someone is ready to learn is based on what they have working well for them now. For example, there are several things that need to go right in order to do a decent reverse turn. Then to do a double reverse turn, even more need to go right. Then to do a double reverse turn, overspin, reverse pivot and contra check, even more needs to happen correctly. It might be possible for a student to get to this last step relatively quickly, but to do it well would involve a process over time. I don't see a quick way to do that.

In addition, especially as one gets more advanced, there can be a good deal of breakdown, where something has to be reset into the muscle memory. For example, you might do the most advanced combination above, and someone tells you that you are lot left enough in the partnership, so you go about staying as left as possible, only to realize another problem has creeped in such as the right shoulder is getting stressed, or you are getting too high through the feet.

I think one can get good to great faster if they get the right information. I can remember several times where there was a great dancer coming to town, and I asked if someone is planning to take lessons from them, and the response was "I am not ready for them yet". I believe this is the wrong thinking, and if anything, people should do their best to seek out the people with the best information about dancing. Deciding who truly possesses that information is another story for another day.

So in closing, I would say that "good to great" is something that would take at least a few years. There are things that will give you a "lift", such as the right dress, or fixing the posture, but it still takes time to acquire the knowledge and muscle memory needed.

[Joe]

Recently someone advised me to come up with a "5-year plan."
Was that person Russian? ;)

[dancepro]

I remember Adele dancing with David Griffin. They had excellent results.

Yes, David and Adele were very successful. David was a great guy. He helped me a lot when I first moved to London. He was great at making you think and see things in a different light. I still miss him.:(

Dancepro

[Josh]

Do you strive to acquire perfect feet and perfect posture, or do you strive to acquire beautiful dancing? That, I think, is the difference in approach. One puts much attention on the details, while another puts awareness on the entire package and the final result. Of course, everyone here will say, "My goal is beautiful dancing," but I would venture to say that some who say that actually don't work towards that goal primarily because they, unfortunately, get too caught up in the details, and in the process make this all much more difficult than it is.

First of all katandmouse, thanks for the great posts--I truly love ideas that cause me to try new approaches.. it helps me grow and get more outside of my comfort zone.

While I believe that much personal interpretation is involved in becoming a dancer, the essentialy problem I see (and forgive my left-brained analytics ;-) ) is that each person may feel a "beautiful posture" but produce something totally different, often something that just may not really work. Of course I want to feel beautiful posture, but what if my feeling of beautiful posture is, well, all wrong? Often things which are very correct for dancing are not things we would actually try and certainly not feel were correct, unless someone who we trusted told us to do it that way. It's sort of like if I asked you to "produce a body shape that resembles that of a widget"--of course, you would first have to see a widget, know its basic shape, and many other details about it first to form a visual in your mind of what a widget is, and only then can you really begin to feel like a widget. Similarly, I think that to produce beautiful posture, you first have to visualize what it is, and know certain details about that image in order to reproduce it. I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

Often when being coached and when teaching I use word pictures to describe something, to produce in the mind a visual image to then try to feel. This can be very helpful, and is very different from saying something like "pick up your right hip." This is somewhat like what you're talking about I think, but I believe still a different approach.

Of course the only way to actually try a simple approach is to not do what I'm doing, which is analyze it, and just try it. I will do this a bit, though with no one to coach me in it, I am bound to need some help.

[dancepro]

I have taught for a few years now and have encountered both approaches to learning. If we talk about children, then we are talking about students that are focused on dancing and not a job. This has happened to me twice in the time I have taught.
First example were two sisters. They came with the same background (of cause they are individuals), the same culture and the same parents. They came to my partner and I with their partners to learn to dance. One sister is right-brained and the other sister is left-brained. The right brained girl got things very fast, she couldn't remember the rules and the sayings but she could dance her jobs. The other sister could recite all the rules and sayings, and tell you exactly where and when each should be used. Today the right-brained girl (lady) is a very successful professional competitor.
The other example is two boys. Again they grew up in the same family, had the same culture, so the same background. Again one brother is right-brained and the other is left-brained. I would actually go so far as to say that the left-brained boy (man) is a genius and the right-brained boy (by his own account) in not very intelligent. The exact same thing happened! My partner and I worked with the two boys every week, they each had one lesson with their partners. I would say the same amount of input and the same amount of practice. However the left-brained boy (man) has a high education and a high level job today. The right-brained boy (man) is a very successful professional competitor with many great results on his resume.

I do believe that the two left-brained (kids) would be better teachers then the right-brained (kids) as they are able to drill in the information and exercises into their students. The two right-brained (kids) are both what I would call unconscious competent and therefore are not really aware what they did to become as good as they are.

I my time as a dancers, I have seen many not so intelligent dancers make it to the very top. Thinking and analyzing too much was one of my big problems, something my main teacher kept reminding me to snap out of. It would frustrate me to bits to see a dancer beat me, that I thought was less intelligent then I. My teacher would just ask me why and how I thought she was able to beat me. I always would come up with the same answer; she was not thinking, she was just doing.

An other thing that my teacher would constantly remind me was that dancing competitions was about getting results, not about feeling good. He would say, that if you wanted to feel good, you should just practice or do shows. He would always make me aware that the judges didn't care what I felt, they were only looking at what I was doing. He would ask "did a judge come up and ask you how you felt" and of cause my answer was "no". He would then get back to his point. He would say, "The judges don't care what you feel (they can't judge that), they only care what you look like (that they can see and compare)".

I think elisedance were looking for insights to why some dancers improve very rapidly and why some dancers take a long to improve. What I got from her first post was that she want to hear if there was any short-cuts that other DF's knew of. I read it as she wanted to hear if any one had moved up the rank fast or knew of anybody that had moved up the ranks very fast. She wanted to find out what and how they had done it.

Well, I better stop now. I am sorry to ramble on like this.

Dancepro

[liz]

Dancepro, I really love your quote. It reminds me of something that I read along the way that said that you can't trust how something feels. If you have not done this move correctly you have nothing to compare it too.
I have been dancing for around 3 years. I started training with a great pro about 9 months in. I had to trust what I was being told. I had to travel to train. In do this it made me very disiplined in my drills. I did move up very quickly. I have always been able to dance, but was not trained. I could just watch and repeat the moves... In reading all these post, I guess I am right-brained. I just do and don't think of why and How.
I do have moments when I start to question, why do we do this, do I turn this much, where exactly is this hand,est... Over and over I have been told I am think to much.
I have a saying that I use sometimes" My mind understand, but my feet aren't listening" this thread has made me realize that my is the problem. In those moments I am trying to think out the steps and over riding what my body will do on its on..Not to say that you can stop practicing... Muscle memory makes it where you don't have to think out each step..

[waltzguy]

Dancepro,
Thank you for your posts. I am intrigued by them, and want to learn more.

I am a very left-brained person, as I'm technical and analytical in my day job. I'm also a lead in dance, and have to learn the mechanical, kinetic, and "how" aspects of leading a set of routines. Floorcraft plays a factor too, as men have to learn to see eminent danger and come up with a Plan B.

I feel I'm slow at learning. Teachers have to sometimes repeat things to get things into my thick skull.

Also, I only go to lessons once a week (typically), with solo practice before and after the lesson. Unfortunately, I don't practice on non-lesson days.

What things do I have to start being more right-brained? I feel that my lessons are very technical, and the teacher breaks stuff down into analyzable pieces. This makes me stay on my left-brain! The example of swinging on a rocking bench works if you know how to rock already, IMHO. What if you didn't know how to rock a bench yet?

Thus, I tend to agree with elisedance that perhaps follows learn faster because they can be more aware and receptive to a lead coming. But to produce the lead requires some up-front left-brain work.

Perhaps I'm being too redundant with thoughts already mentioned. I don't mean to repeat someone else's point like it's mine.

[Warren J. Dew]

I remember Adele dancing with David Griffin. They had excellent results.

I was actually thinking of Denis Tremblay; did Adele dance Standard professionally with David Griffin as well? Or perhaps I shouldn't be limiting my comparisons to professional Standard.

All thinking and understanding with no resulting action (and hence feeling) does not a good dancer make. Similarly, while all feeling with no knowledge to support the feeling may get a dancer to a certain level, at some point a lack of understanding is bound to present stumbling blocks about how to develop further. Perhaps both might be good? Knowing the "whys" is essential, IMO, but besides just knowing, we obviously have to DO something about it in order to actually improve.

I think that knowing the "whys" might be more important to teaching than to competing. I think it might be even less important to lady pro-am students, where interpreting the lead properly should be sufficient to get the details of the actions correct, even without knowing what those details are. It might become more important if you wanted to advance beyond the capabilities of your partner or your coach.

The right brained girl got things very fast, she couldn't remember the rules and the sayings but she could dance her jobs. The other sister could recite all the rules and sayings, and tell you exactly where and when each should be used. Today the right-brained girl (lady) is a very successful professional competitor.

If this is the case I am thinking of, I don't think it's fair to conclude that the other girl could not have become a successful professional competitor had she wanted to. However, she was significantly older, so she would not have been able to make as good a career of it, plus she had a Harvard degree that could be put to good use outside of dancing.

I would actually go so far as to say that the left-brained boy (man) is a genius and the right-brained boy (by his own account) in not very intelligent.

Intelligence is not all about taking tests and getting grades. For example, my younger brother thought he was not so intelligent for a long time, but we both eventually realized that he was actually very intelligent; he just didn't happen to have focused on academics as much as I did or gotten a degree from MIT or Harvard.

Speaking of focus, I might venture a guess that in your cases, the ones who eventually ended up in dance might have done so as much because of a more athletic or physical focus as because of any differences in intellectual outlook.

With respect to some of the other peoples' posts, I think speaking of "right brained" or "left brained" may be misleading. Remember that the right brain controls the left side of the body, and the left brain controls the right side of the body. I certainly hope that everyone uses both sides of the body to dance!

It's an interesting question whether there's a difference between leads and follows in this respect. Arguably leading uses the right side of the body more, since that's where the lady is. I'm not sure how following would fit in here.

[DanceMentor]

I love reading dancepro's post as well.

Based on what you outlined, it sounds like there is sort of a way of doing things in your lessons that has become common, and maybe you need some new challenges to the way you think. That said, there is always a need for a consistent logical approach that moves you in a positive direction. On the other hand, I think it is healthy to break away from the norm sometimes. Here are a few random ideas that might help you do that:
1. Get an interesting video, and ask your teacher to watch a part you like, and hopefully they will work on it with you.
2. Take a coaching lesson from someone new
3. Ask to work on something that outside of what you normally work on just for fun (ex. do some Latin if you always do standard).
4. If you are a follower, ask if he will show you how to lead a couple of the steps (or visa versa for the follower)
5. Dance with your eyes closed for a few minutes
6. Dance a Foxtrot to Rumba music (or other combinations)
7. Dance with one hand behind the back

Don't get too carried away, but I think it is quite healthy to be challenged to think in new ways, both for you and your teacher.

[elisedance]

First example were two sisters. They came with the same background (of cause they are individuals), the same culture and the same parents. They came to my partner and I with their partners to learn to dance. One sister is right-brained and the other sister is left-brained. The right brained girl got things very fast, she couldn't remember the rules and the sayings but she could dance her jobs. The other sister could recite all the rules and sayings, and tell you exactly where and when each should be used. Today the right-brained girl (lady) is a very successful professional competitor.
The other example is two boys. Again they grew up in the same family, had the same culture, so the same background. Again one brother is right-brained and the other is left-brained. I would actually go so far as to say that the left-brained boy (man) is a genius and the right-brained boy (by his own account) in not very intelligent. The exact same thing happened! My partner and I worked with the two boys every week, they each had one lesson with their partners. I would say the same amount of input and the same amount of practice. However the left-brained boy (man) has a high education and a high level job today. The right-brained boy (man) is a very successful professional competitor with many great results on his resume.


I hope this does not mean that a left brained person can not be a successful dance competitor ;) Is it not possible for one to connect with the right side too - if the intent is strong?


An other thing that my teacher would constantly remind me was that dancing competitions was about getting results, not about feeling good. He would say, that if you wanted to feel good, you should just practice or do shows. He would always make me aware that the judges didn't care what I felt, they were only looking at what I was doing. He would ask "did a judge come up and ask you how you felt" and of cause my answer was "no". He would then get back to his point. He would say, "The judges don't care what you feel (they can't judge that), they only care what you look like (that they can see and compare)".

We all have to learn this sooner or later - but I think you only really get it after a number of competitions and post-comp discussions with (good) judges.


I think elisedance were looking for insights to why some dancers improve very rapidly and why some dancers take a long to improve. What I got from her first post was that she want to hear if there was any short-cuts that other DF's knew of. I read it as she wanted to hear if any one had moved up the rank fast or knew of anybody that had moved up the ranks very fast. She wanted to find out what and how they had done it.


And you are right on. I want to find out about the full spectrum of approaches to dancesport teaching - for I hvae seen people that seem to be on a fast-track and other, seemingly equally talented (to my naive eye anyway) ones fall behind. Frankly I would rather be with the first group ;)


Well, I better stop now. I am sorry to ramble on like this.


And please do NOT apologize - you just go right on 'rambling' :) It really does not matter how many agree not but, as for any novel thinking, that they listen and decide for themselves....

[elisedance]

With respect to some of the other peoples' posts, I think speaking of "right brained" or "left brained" may be misleading. Remember that the right brain controls the left side of the body, and the left brain controls the right side of the body. I certainly hope that everyone uses both sides of the body to dance!


You have to go a bit higher than the motor centres to understand the full meaning of the right/left brain concept WJD :o It refers to valid neurobiological principles - the left hemisphere contains the speech centres while the right the spatial ones. While the idea that logic/mathematics/science are left brain while art/creativity are right is grossly oversimplified it still has a kernel of truth. This is the concept that is referred to by the terminology and not the relatively mundane sensory/motor input/output regions. As far as I am concerned, and surely as far as this discussion uses it, I think this is a reasonable approximation. For really we do not care which side they are on but on what faculties we are using to achieve the task.

It's an interesting question whether there's a difference between leads and follows in this respect. Arguably leading uses the right side of the body more, since that's where the lady is. I'm not sure how following would fit in here.

To my mind (and experience) that is an example of very left-brained 'reductio ad absurdum' ;). As far as sensory/motor functions themselves are concerned the brain is very good at sharing that information unless you have cut the giant nerve tracts (corpus callosum) that is. Fortunately, most of us have these intact...

[elisedance]

I love reading dancepro's post as well.

Based on what you outlined, it sounds like there is sort of a way of doing things in your lessons that has become common, and maybe you need some new challenges to the way you think. That said, there is always a need for a consistent logical approach that moves you in a positive direction. On the other hand, I think it is healthy to break away from the norm sometimes. Here are a few random ideas that might help you do that:
1. Get an interesting video, and ask your teacher to watch a part you like, and hopefully they will work on it with you.
2. Take a coaching lesson from someone new
3. Ask to work on something that outside of what you normally work on just for fun (ex. do some Latin if you always do standard).
4. If you are a follower, ask if he will show you how to lead a couple of the steps (or visa versa for the follower)
5. Dance with your eyes closed for a few minutes
6. Dance a Foxtrot to Rumba music (or other combinations)
7. Dance with one hand behind the back

Don't get too carried away, but I think it is quite healthy to be challenged to think in new ways, both for you and your teacher.

DM: Just to be clear, by 'you' you mean me and not dancepro :)

I have actually done 1-4 and 6-7 :) While dancing with my eyes closed is my most preferred way (I will do the entire routine and an entire social evening if allowed) - its a habit we are trying to break :rolleyes: Still I appreciate the input maybe there are some more creative ideas I could explore...

[samina]

I also enjoy dancepro's perspective & comments.

I would add to DM's list the objective of acquiring an understanding of how the conscious and subconscious aspects of the mind work together to facilitate tasks and learning. IME, it is the key to a tremendous amount of learning & power. The conscious mind is what people are aware of when they are thinking and analyzing, but it is perhaps just 10% of one's mental power. It's the subconscious that is the place of genius and rapid insights and growth and shifts.

For my own part, this has been a year of very rapid change, going from bronze to open. And for me, acknowledging, working with and trusting the murky realm of the subconscious has been very beneficial for me.

[Warren J. Dew]

You have to go a bit higher than the motor centres to understand the full meaning of the right/left brain concept WJD :o It refers to valid neurobiological principles - the left hemisphere contains the speech centres while the right the spatial ones.

Sure, there's a valid speech/spatial dichotomy between the left and right hemispheres. In casual discussion, though, there's a tendency to misuse the terms. For example, people will try to use them to make a distinction between "analytical" or even "intelligent", on the one hand, as opposed to "intuitive" or even "illogical" on the other. That's a distinction between use of the prefrontal cortex and the rest of the brain, not a left/right distinction.

To my mind (and experience) that is an example of very left-brained 'reductio ad absurdum' ;).

Nah. It's an example of a very right brained reductio ad absurdum, by a very spatially oriented guy who gets annoyed when "left" and "right" are used in place of "front" and "middle".

[lemonade]

For my own part, this has been a year of very rapid change, going from bronze to open.

Samina, did you do this in latin or standard...or all? Very happy for you!

[dancepro]

It reminds me of something that I read along the way that said that you can't trust how something feels. If you have not done this move correctly you have nothing to compare it too.


I totally agree!!! That is exately what my teacher used to say!!!!!


I had to trust what I was being told. I had to travel to train. In do this it made me very disiplined in my drills. I did move up very quickly. I have always been able to dance, but was not trained. I could just watch and repeat the moves... In reading all these post, I guess I am right-brained. I just do and don't think of why and How.


Sounds to me like, you are on a great path.

Dancepro

[dancepro]

Unfortunately, I don't practice on non-lesson days.


And why not?????


What things do I have to start being more right-brained?


What does you Waltz smell like????

Just giving you some food for thought!!:)

Dancepro

[samina]

Samina, did you do this in latin or standard...or all? Very happy for you!
Standard. I didn't do silver til end of January and actually won an Open scholarship in July, but went full open at OSB.

Right now I'm with Latin about where I was at the beginning of '08 with Standard...dancing Silver but not "competitive" in the field at all.

[dancepro]

I was actually thinking of Denis Tremblay; did Adele dance Standard professionally with David Griffin as well? Or perhaps I shouldn't be limiting my comparisons to professional Standard.
[quote]

David and Adele was the British amateur 10 dance champions and I think second in Blackpool in amateur Latin. I don't really remember how far the got in the standard.

[quote]
I think that knowing the "whys" might be more important to teaching than to competing.


I would agree on this statement. I spend a year after retiring from competing to learn to teach as all the "whys" had to be answered.


If this is the case I am thinking of, I don't think it's fair to conclude that the other girl could not have become a successful professional competitor had she wanted to. However, she was significantly older, so she would not have been able to make as good a career of it, plus she had a Harvard degree that could be put to good use outside of dancing.


I don't think we are thinking of the same two girls. The girls I am thinking of; the oldest is the dancer and a professional semifinalist in Blackpool and at the International and the youngest has stopped dancing. They were totally opposite in personality. One was a analytical and the other was emotional.
The two girls you are talking about are very close in personality. The oldest is a analyzer/controller and the youngest is a analyzer/supporter. They are both analyzing and about the same in intellectual intelligence. Both of those two girls (ladies) are extremely talented.



Intelligence is not all about taking tests and getting grades. For example, my younger brother thought he was not so intelligent for a long time, but we both eventually realized that he was actually very intelligent; he just didn't happen to have focused on academics as much as I did or gotten a degree from MIT or Harvard.

The boy (man) that I mentioned said and I quote "I think the reason he is not as good as I am is because he is clever and therefore take everything to bits. I am so dumb that I can't do that. I only dance and that is what the judges are looking at". This he has said on several occasions. To me there are many different kinds of intelligence and not one is better then the other it is just different.


With respect to some of the other peoples' posts, I think speaking of "right brained" or "left brained" may be misleading. Remember that the right brain controls the left side of the body, and the left brain controls the right side of the body. I certainly hope that everyone uses both sides of the body to dance!


I think we all know that it is the left hemisphere that controls the right side of the body and visa versa. I think what the reference is, is what is the dominating personality. Are they more logic or more emotional inclined?

As I said earlier I spend a year learning to teach my teachers system after I retired. He (my teacher and mentor) was very clear that it was important to teach facts and principles. Then later let the student develop their own feeling about what it would feel like to execute the facts and principles. He also stress the importance of keeping it simple as there would be stress enough creeping in when competing. If focused on too many things very little would be accomplished and the student would not feel successful and accomplished. To get a dancer to reach a high level they need to develop confidence and feeling stressed will not help the student develop confidence.

Dancepro

[samina]

I really buy your perspective, dancepro. At the beginning of the year I purposely chose to stop my logical-analysis learning approach and just dive into a feeling approach. Periodically I think "I should learn these things more academically" but my intuition wastes no time in throwing cold water on the idea everytime. *grin*

[katandmouse]

First of all katandmouse, thanks for the great posts--I truly love ideas that cause me to try new approaches.. it helps me grow and get more outside of my comfort zone.

While I believe that much personal interpretation is involved in becoming a dancer, the essentialy problem I see (and forgive my left-brained analytics ;-) ) is that each person may feel a "beautiful posture" but produce something totally different,

This I love!!!


often something that just may not really work. Of course I want to feel beautiful posture, but what if my feeling of beautiful posture is, well, all wrong?



I do not believe in letting any dance student to their devices and expect them to come up with what is right. That would be like taking a bunch of nuts and bolts, shaking them up in a tin can and expecting them to come together to form a car. ;-)

I actually do very much agree with you. Feelings can be deceptive, and letting your feelings be your guide is not what I'm advocating with the right brain approach, but somehow that's what everyone thinks. Why is that? Is it the way I present it? Or is it because people what people know or think the right side of the brain to be?

I advocate the right brain approach for dancers because:

1) It helps you process information with creativity and with less focus on rules and regulations. Dancing is an art. It should be individualistic. There should not be rules about where exactly to place each foot or when exactly the hips should rotate, etc. The left brain will try to make sense of it all by making up rules, definitions, and prescribed ways of doing things. That's taking dance out of the realm of artistry and into a science.

2) The right brain allows you to see the big picture first, not the details. When we dance there are many pieces that must work in unison, simultaneously, yet each one doing something different. The shoulders may be rotating while the knee is moving forward, for example. Left brain thinkers often break these into separate pieces because that's how they approach learning it. They have a difficult time blending the pieces, and sometimes they never do, or take decades trying to. A right brain thinker sees all the pieces as one activity. Their approach is to put all the pieces together at once.

3) And of course, the right brain is more creative, intuitive, expressive - the icing on the cake in the making of a great dancer.



Of course the only way to actually try a simple approach is to not do what I'm doing, which is analyze it, and just try it. I will do this a bit, though with no one to coach me in it, I am bound to need some help.

What I recommend is to give your brain a rest. No doubt you have enough information already. You know intellectually what you should be doing. So give that a rest. Now let your body try to assimilate it. Really let it. Be an observer. Keep your brain on the sidelines as you watch. You can send little messages from time to time, like a teacher would to a student, but really try to just let your body go through trial and error, over and over. Let it put the big picture together. Remember, you're just an observer on the sidelines. Perhaps to help put you on the right side, ask yourself what color your dancing is.

Glenn Weiss told me he watched a tennis coach teach children to play tennis. He put them on the court with rackets and told them nothing other than that their goal was to hit the ball over the net into the court. Then he set up the machine to toss them balls. The kids swung and swung and swung. Eventually one would land in the court. The body then unconsciously made a note of what it did to accomplish that. Over time, the kids had it figured out - with no instruction. Of course, later they refined their technique with guidance from the coach, but the majority of the learning, they did themselves just by trial and error.

That's what you need to do. You have one goal - dance. Your teacher will guide you along the way to be sure you don't go off course. So, don't worry. Have fun.

[waltzgirl]

I don't see why it has to be one or the other. Why not cultivate both capacities of your brain and get the advantages of both?

For example, sometimes when I'm working on smooth/standard posture, I work on activating certain muscles, stretching in certain ways, and rotating my rib cage in certain ways. And sometimes I picutre myself as a tulip on a curved stem.

I will say I tend to use the analytical side more in practice and drills and the inutitive side more when I'm actually dancing. I love that feeling of the body doing its thing and the mind neutrally observing. It feels like time slows down and there's all the time in the world to do what I need to do and to make corrections mid-course.

[katandmouse]

I don't see why it has to be one or the other. Why not cultivate both capacities of your brain and get the advantages of both?

For example, sometimes when I'm working on smooth/standard posture, I work on activating certain muscles, stretching in certain ways, and rotating my rib cage in certain ways. And sometimes I picutre myself as a tulip on a curved stem.

I will say I tend to use the analytical side more in practice and drills and the inutitive side more when I'm actually dancing.



I do find myself using my left, analytical brain to some degree as I'm learning and listening, but I reframe it to right-brain before I practice. At least I try to because I find I get better results that way.

Recently during a lesson with a visiting coach who happens to lecture a lot, I found myself in my left brain in the middle of an amalgamation. I caught myself and switched over to the right. IMMEDIATELY, he exclaimed, "THAT'S IT!" I told him I made my brain the passenger instead of the driver. My body knew what to do. I just had to give it permission.


I love that feeling of the body doing its thing and the mind neutrally observing. It feels like time slows down and there's all the time in the world to do what I need to do and to make corrections mid-course.

And that is the right-brain shift.

[Warren J. Dew]

I don't see why it has to be one or the other. Why not cultivate both capacities of your brain and get the advantages of both?

You certainly can, and that is probably what most couples do. That is what dancepro earlier referred to as the "slow" or "average" way.

The argument, though, is that the conscious analytical understanding of how all the details fit together into the greater whole - the stuff that requires the front of the brain - is unnecessary to actually dancing properly. You can the higher brain functions off - or just let them watch, as you describe - while allowing the hindbrain and the motor cortex on both the left and right sides do their job. You'll dance just fine; you just won't have a full conscious understanding of what you're doing.

The argument continues that it is quicker - perhaps much quicker - for the coach to teach the "muscle memory" in the hindbrain how to dance if he or she doesn't also have to spend time teaching your forebrain how to consciously understand everything about how it all fits together. Your consciousness only gets involved in practicing the elements and doing the drills your coach tells you to do, without worrying about how it all fits together.

My only caveat is that, while I believe it can work in some circumstances, it requires a good coach who knows what he or she is doing, and a partner who will facilitate your not making mistakes, and not interfere by making mistakes himself. Most people don't have those ideal conditions, which is why they use the "average" approach, which takes longer.

[elisedance]

I think that does make sense WJD. For all of us there is a ballance between left and right (according to the above terminology) thinkining. For those of us who do a lot of analytical work daily we have to work on developing faith in our intuition while those that rely on right breinedness run the danger of being able to dance but not really knowing why (and hence dancepro's need to spend time learning steps in order to teach). Thus perhaps its fair to say that 'maximum' and fastest development depends on a combination of on our natures (inheritance), our lives, our skills in other areas and, most important, our openness to new ideas. Which is also true of course for virtualy every other thing we try to do :)

[waltzgirl]

I'm actually having an interesting experience in "right-brain" learning now. After 6 years of smooth, I have started learning standard. So far, my pro has been teaching me almost exclusively by having me follow. I don't know what the figures are or where one begins or ends. I can do a heel pull (my pro won't let me use the term "heel t*urn" because the turn is not my job and he doesn't even want me thinking of it), but the only instruction I was given was "pull your heels together and wait." I've tried to figure outwhat I'm doing when I do it--where my weight is when, etc.--and I can't figure it out. But it works fine, feels good to both of us, and has me wondering, "what's all the angst people have about this move?"

The thing is, though, that I don't think I could have learned this way from the beginning. The instruction "wait" to a follower is actually a very complex one, involving both physical things like where the weight is distributed and and a mental and physical readiness to respond with a dance step. It's only because I already have a somewhat educated body that I can "wait" in a way that contributes to the dance.

I'm sure I can learn to dance standard with my pro this way. But if I were to want to do standard socially, it makes me worried. It's fine with a leader who actually leads each weight change clearly. But with less skilled leaders, I think it often helps to be able to make an educated guess about what figure you're dancing in case the lead falters during the figure. At some point, I'll probably ask him to break down each step, just so I know them intellectually as well.

[elisedance]

WG: I think my new resolution is - 'it doesn't matter if the dance stops'. Its more important that we are doing it in a way that both of us get something out of it. In order to relax into the follow I have to accept that sometimes I am simply not going to do so. If I get to the point of not being afraid to make a mistake I strongly suspect that they will become very rare indeed.

[waltzgirl]

ed, I do a lot of social dancing with a wide variety of partners, so I've gotten very used to the fact that miscommunication is going to happen. And I think of it as miscommunication, rather than a mistake.

[Josh]

the only instruction I was given was "pull your heels together and wait."

Actually the beauty of the heel turn is that you don't even have to pull your heels together, he also does that for you... talk about an easy job you have!!! .... :cool: :car:

[liz]

The book -The power of Now, is great to help with all these concepts. Pilates helped with my breathing and relaxation.
I am also very artistic. Painting and drawing are my other great loves.

[mamboqueen]

I
My Pilates teacher was trained in "neural-muscular reprogramming." Through her I've learned how to target the exact muscles I need to get the job done and to keep the antagonists out of the picture. When you get the hang of that, you'll see that very little strength goes a long way. In fact, you can develop super-human strength with a minimum of effort, and minimum effort means greater endurance and less stress; both contribute to better dancing.



Have you tried gyrotonics? Different machines (circular motions rather than linear), but similar concepts. I have only done it 3x so far, but it is definitely training me in being aware of what muscles are firing up, and learning to subdue the ones I shouldn't be using. It opens up my body completely and I also get the best stretching out of it than anything else I've tried. The guy who I train with is a professional ballet dancer and boy, he has my weak areas pegged and ready to be worked on. I am quite thrilled to have found this.

Interesting thread....keep all the interesting talk coming!

[elisedance]

gyrotronics? have to look out for that MBQ, sounds an interesting way to exercise :)

[mamboqueen]

gyrotronics? have to look out for that MBQ, sounds an interesting way to exercise :)

It is quite awesome. Sam does it, too. Not too easy to find a place that has all of the equipment - it is pricey stuff, and can only be bought here by people who are certified in teaching it.

[samina]

i worship at the altar of gyro...:cool:

i have big plans to use it this year to help facilitate quantum shifts galore. :)

[QPO]

that depends on the Lead. My partner does not do that yet and I have to think about it, and do it myself. When he is more confident with his leads I am sure what you say will happen.

Actually the beauty of the heel turn is that you don't even have to pull your heels together, he also does that for you... talk about an easy job you have!!! .... :cool: :car:

[mamboqueen]

i worship at the altar of gyro...:cool:





I would not have known just how tight my hip flexors are (especially the left one *oy*) if not for this. I am planning on doing splits in 6 monhts! On both sides! Hamstrings are already freeing up a bit. But for me, it's something I have to work on every day in between sessions...and sessions are pricey. I need another job. Or a sugar daddy. Or better yet, the lottery. :)

[samina]

I am planning on doing splits in 6 monhts! On both sides! Hamstrings are already freeing up a bit.

yay! happy for ya!

sessions are pricey. I need another job. Or a sugar daddy. Or better yet, the lottery. :)

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$

hope that helps a bit. :cool:

[mamboqueen]

yay! happy for ya!



$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$

hope that helps a bit. :cool:

LMAO - if I don't have enough $$$$ for the gyro training, I'll have to settle for the kind you can eat :).

[samina]

that would be counter-productive. *grin*

[mamboqueen]

nah...I'm burning lots of calories these days.

FYI - got the book Dance Kinesiology - did I mention that to you? I think you'd like it. Very useful in understanding the body. Well, for someone like me who knows very little about the body...muscles, bones, body types, limitations, etc. Good stuff.

[samina]

will look into it, MQ!

[elisedance]

me too MBQ. Always need some more insight into how the body really works...

[dancepro]

1. Get an interesting video, and ask your teacher to watch a part you like, and hopefully they will work on it with you.
2. Take a coaching lesson from someone new
3. Ask to work on something that outside of what you normally work on just for fun (ex. do some Latin if you always do standard).
4. If you are a follower, ask if he will show you how to lead a couple of the steps (or visa versa for the follower)
5. Dance with your eyes closed for a few minutes
6. Dance a Foxtrot to Rumba music (or other combinations)
7. Dance with one hand behind the back

Don't get too carried away, but I think it is quite healthy to be challenged to think in new ways, both for you and your teacher.

We did interesting things as well to break up the normal practice.

1) I would have the assignment to dance in different shoes. Out doors shoes as well as indoors shoes. Dancing on the dirt parking lot, making it look normal, was a interesting exercise.
2) Once a week my partner danced as the lady (of cause he has a lady's name) and I danced as the man (and had a male name). We still use these names today when teaching.
3) Many times a week we would dance foxtrot to Rumba and Tango to Cha-cha and other combinations. There were both standard teachers as well as latin teachers in the studio so this was often a necessity.
4) We developed many different kinds of practice holds; each hold accomplishing a different aspect.
5) Dancing with the eyes closed was also a weekly event. Sometime his eyes were closed and sometimes mine......of course both of never closed their eyes at the same time....
6) We had stamina practice once a week and competition practice once a week.
7) We sometimes invited a "shouter". A person that would call out what we were to think about.
8) Sometime the "shouter" would become a obstacle that we were to avoid.

I am sure everybody can come up with one thing to do that breaks up the routine. Have fun exploring.

Dancepro

[dancepro]

I hope this does not mean that a left brained person can not be a successful dance competitor ;) Is it not possible for one to connect with the right side too - if the intent is strong?


Of course a left brained can be successful, Richard and Janet Gleave are a prime example of that. I think they were 8 times world champions. I am sure there are many other examples ....I just can't think of any right now.


We all have to learn this sooner or later - but I think you only really get it after a number of competitions and post-comp discussions with (good) judges.


I think it is more that the couples need to be reminded of this fact (I think they all know this fact). They often get so into feeling good and entertaining themselves, that they forget to keep the choreography and technique readable to the judge.


And you are right on. I want to find out about the full spectrum of approaches to dancesport teaching - for I hvae seen people that seem to be on a fast-track and other, seemingly equally talented (to my naive eye anyway) ones fall behind. Frankly I would rather be with the first group ;)


I am glad I understood you right. It is really the same in every business. Two people that seem to have the same talent and ability, but one succeeds and one falls behind. This subject has fascinated me since the early 90's when I first started studying human potential. I can totally understand you wanting to be in the first group. I think many people share your thoughts on that account.


And please do NOT apologize - you just go right on 'rambling' :) It really does not matter how many agree not but, as for any novel thinking, that they listen and decide for themselves....


I do tend to keep going and going.
Thank you, for making me feel that my rambling are being heard and appreciated. I will just write my opinion and I am sure everybody is going to make up their own mind on what they think:).

Dancepro

[DanceMentor]

I do tend to keep going and going.
Thank you, for making me feel that my rambling are being heard and appreciated. I will just write my opinion and I am sure everybody is going to make up their own mind on what they think:).
Dancepro

I may not post all that often, but I try read everything you write, and my wife often calls from the other room with an "aha" moment after reading your post, and we discuss what you said.

So keep rambling, and we will keep reading. :)

[fascination]

I too am grateful for all of these intriguing concepts that I would have otherwise not considered

[dancepro]

Feelings can be deceptive, and letting your feelings be your guide is not what I'm advocating with the right brain approach.


I totally agree. That is why I was told that I was not allowed to feel or judge my feeling for the first year with my main teacher. He said that, as I was not a world finalist, how would I know what a world finalist felt like. He would have me do things and then ask me if that was "different'. If I said "yes" he would then tell me to record that feeling. To this day there are still things that I feel one way but know as a fact is totally opposite to what is the truth. When the teacher/coach says that looks right then that feeling is how it should feel, until it will be improved on further.

There are a little over 400 rules on the 3 level (the Body school of thought) and over 8000 on the 5th level and too many to count on the 6 level. Are you able to think of all of them while dancing? I don't think so?

I know of champions that actually only knew about 120 rule when they won. They won the dance competition and not the "written" test ha ha. Sorry I just couldn't help the joke...
The rules are nice to have but they are just like the skeleton of the body. There is so much more to the body then just bones. Most great dancers do have knowledge of a lot of rules, but it is the excursion that get rewarded in a competition.


Glenn Weiss told me he watched a tennis coach teach children to play tennis. He put them on the court with rackets and told them nothing other than that their goal was to hit the ball over the net into the court. Then he set up the machine to toss them balls. The kids swung and swung and swung. Eventually one would land in the court. The body then unconsciously made a note of what it did to accomplish that. Over time, the kids had it figured out - with no instruction. Of course, later they refined their technique with guidance from the coach, but the majority of the learning, they did themselves just by trial and error.


Children learn to walk much the same way. The fall down on an average 264 times before being able to walk a few steps. Lets just think about this one for a second....
How many times have you done a 1-3 of Natural Turn (Waltz), Feather Step or anything else for that matter. There is only three steps in a Natural Turn (OK, 4 or 5 counting the pre-step] and only three in the Feather (a rumba walk is 1 step, max 2 steps). Why can a child learn to walk with under 500 try's and we do 1000's of Feather's. We analyze the steps so much that we end up not being able to do it with easy and grace. There is a time for analyzing and a time for dancing. I do think there is, as my teacher call it, an epidemic going around of analyzing things so much that nothing happens.

Dancepro

[dancepro]

I may not post all that often, but I try read everything you write, and my wife often calls from the other room with an "aha" moment after reading your post, and we discuss what you said.

So keep rambling, and we will keep reading. :)

Thank you, for the compliments. I appreciate your support. I will keep rambling...just tell me when you had enough;):)

Dancepro

[waltzguy]

dancepro,
As others have mentioned, and I have already as well, I fully appreciate all your insightful comments. I take the time to read them all. As for your question to me, I don't practice enough because I cannot seem to practice at home without either killing my feet (with socks only) or scratching up my floor as a result of doing heel leads with shoes. Any advice? There's another thread on this, and someone wrote that dance sneakers don't scratch the hardwood. I have yet to try this. Are there other alternatives?

[emeralddancer]

Dancepro ...I value and have learned a great deal from your posts. Many of which lend themselves to discussions with my pro. :)

Now ...my question to you is this ...(or maybe a statement really) ...

You should consider doing a something or other (like get with Malawaka) and teach like a 3 day "camp" or something.

Would be most fascinating and informative. So much of what you discuss would be beneficial to many of us. Especially to put it into use!

If you do ... sign me up to attend! :D

[katandmouse]

I do think there is, as my teacher call it, an epidemic going around of analyzing things so much that nothing happens.

Dancepro

They call that the "Paralysis of Analysis."

[katandmouse]

Have you tried gyrotonics? Different machines (circular motions rather than linear), but similar concepts. I have only done it 3x so far, but it is definitely training me in being aware of what muscles are firing up, and learning to subdue the ones I shouldn't be using. It opens up my body completely and I also get the best stretching out of it than anything else I've tried. The guy who I train with is a professional ballet dancer and boy, he has my weak areas pegged and ready to be worked on. I am quite thrilled to have found this.

Interesting thread....keep all the interesting talk coming!

I have tried gyro and would be doing it if there was an affordable studio in my town. My friend swears by it, as do some pros I know. I recently almost bought a home machine. Big 5 Sporting had them on sale for around $150 I think, but I was afraid of the quality. Some of the things we do in Pilates is similar in nature, but not quite the same. You can also go gyrokinesis at home or anywhere.

[dancepro]

dancepro,
As others have mentioned, and I have already as well, I fully appreciate all your insightful comments. I take the time to read them all. As for your question to me, I don't practice enough because I cannot seem to practice at home without either killing my feet (with socks only) or scratching up my floor as a result of doing heel leads with shoes. Any advice? There's another thread on this, and someone wrote that dance sneakers don't scratch the hardwood. I have yet to try this. Are there other alternatives?

Thank you, for you positive comments. You are all very encouraging. Thank you. I will keep giving my 2 cents worth, when I have time.

I got a few options for you....

1) Sit down and use your mind to dance. Imagine yourself dancing everything that you want to improve.
2) Use your fingers or two sticks to dance.
3) Paint your Waltz and other dances with crayons and/or paint.
4) Dance in your garage or in your garden with tennis shoes on.
BTW you should be able to dance in any pair of shoes. It doesn't need to be dance shoes. I actually never saw my teacher in a pair of dance shoes. He always used normal street shoes. He had me practice in every pair of shoes that I owned. It was great when I got back to my dance shoes. My dancing had really improved.
5) Practice your divisions using a chair.

I am sure others can give you more alternative ways to practice.

I know of a former US champions that only practiced (in a dance studio) twice a week. They did however practice every day in their heads. Lack of floor time is not a valid excuse;).

Keep working on the dancing. Keep up the good work.

Dancepro

[dancepro]

Dancepro ...I value and have learned a great deal from your posts. Many of which lend themselves to discussions with my pro. :)

Now ...my question to you is this ...(or maybe a statement really) ...

You should consider doing a something or other (like get with Malawaka) and teach like a 3 day "camp" or something.

Would be most fascinating and informative. So much of what you discuss would be beneficial to many of us. Especially to put it into use!

If you do ... sign me up to attend! :D

Thank you to you as well:). I am glad that you find my posts of use.

If somebody would arrange it I am totally willing to participate. I just don't have that time to organize something like that at this moment in time. I will however do training like that in the future sometime, I promise. I will let you know if I have something like that coming up.

Dancepro

[dancepro]

They call that the "Paralysis of Analysis."

Yes, I couldn't think of it when I needed it. Thank you katandmouse. This is proof that two minds work better than one.:)

Dancepro

[katandmouse]

dancepro,
As others have mentioned, and I have already as well, I fully appreciate all your insightful comments. I take the time to read them all. As for your question to me, I don't practice enough because I cannot seem to practice at home without either killing my feet (with socks only) or scratching up my floor as a result of doing heel leads with shoes. Any advice? There's another thread on this, and someone wrote that dance sneakers don't scratch the hardwood. I have yet to try this. Are there other alternatives?

I do what I call "kitchen practices." It's where I work on a pattern (perhaps only 3 steps) over and over again while I wait for the water to boil, fish to fry, or where I happen to be taking a break (I work at home).

I go barefoot. That is a requirement. It helps me to really feel the floor and what my feet are doing. However, my teacher saw me practicing barefoot at the studio and he lambasted me. Told me I'd injure my feet. I can't see how so I still practice barefoot at home. Lars Odegard (? sorry, not sure of the name) has his students dance barefoot, so I figure that's good enough for me.

It's here where I'm most successful at right-brain dancing. There isn't much room so I have to be most focused on not running into a cabinet or a wall. That gets me out of the details and just into the movement.

I've also learned a lot about sway as well because I have to bank a lot to make turns so that I don't run into cabinets. Go ahead laugh. I know that sounds funny, but this really works. You learn there is a purpose for all that sway and then suddenly your dancing goals change. Instead of thinking HOW to create sway, you do it out of necessity. Your body finds what works, and in turn, you start to learn to trust your body more.

[mamboqueen]

sure makes cooking rice a bit more interesting ;)

[skipper]

Dancepro ...I value and have learned a great deal from your posts. Many of which lend themselves to discussions with my pro. :)

Now ...my question to you is this ...(or maybe a statement really) ...

You should consider doing a something or other (like get with Malawaka) and teach like a 3 day "camp" or something.

Would be most fascinating and informative. So much of what you discuss would be beneficial to many of us. Especially to put it into use!

If you do ... sign me up to attend! :D

You can sign me up as well.
Everything you say makes sense--especially when it comes to NOT asking questions and just doing it.
I KNOW my feelings are not accurate, because they are always change. What happened in bronze is certainly not what happens in silver, gold or open.

[katandmouse]

I think that does make sense WJD. For all of us there is a ballance between left and right (according to the above terminology) thinkining. For those of us who do a lot of analytical work daily we have to work on developing faith in our intuition while those that rely on right breinedness run the danger of being able to dance but not really knowing why :)

I hope I don't give the impression that right brain activity comes without knowledge. I get a lot of knowledge handed down to me from many coaches that is not only helpful, it's necessary. It's how I process that information that makes it either left brained or right brained.

When I'm in my right brain, all that knowledge, all those details become tools to achieve the bigger picture. They come into mind when I observe something not working or when I'm trying to explore new options, but they are never that for which I strive. I don't go for perfect foot placement, for example. I go for perfect movement. The feet will find where to go. However, if I'm locked in the left brain, my feet have a much harder time figuring it all out because my brain is caught up in all kinds of chatter and won't let my body just go and explore. The Inner Game of Music discusses this principle.

Teachers sometime get overly detailed because they are grasping at straws trying to help students get it. But good teachers really don't want you to make rules out of those details. That happens a lot now and is why there are so many clones out on the floor. Instead keep those details in their place. They are only suggestions. If you have that frame of mind, it's easier to keep them in their place and thus keep you on the right side.

Found this other post I made on this subject in another thread:
http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=609898#post609898

I hope this has been helpful.

[samina]

I have tried gyro and would be doing it if there was an affordable studio in my town. My friend swears by it, as do some pros I know. I recently almost bought a home machine. Big 5 Sporting had them on sale for around $150 I think, but I was afraid of the quality. Some of the things we do in Pilates is similar in nature, but not quite the same. You can also go gyrokinesis at home or anywhere.

the machines cost 5 grand, so i'm not sure what that was...mebbe a gyrokinesis chair?

[katandmouse]

the machines cost 5 grand, so i'm not sure what that was...mebbe a gyrokinesis chair?

Here's the machine:
http://www.amazon.com/Stamina-55-6150-Gyrotonic-Transformer-1500/dp/B0000ARAPR

They'll break the link though. In case they erase it, search on Stamina Gyrotonic Transformer at Amazon. These machine are affordable for home use.

[waltzguy]

I've also learned a lot about sway as well because I have to bank a lot to make turns so that I don't run into cabinets. Go ahead laugh. I know that sounds funny, but this really works.

I'm definitely not laughing. In fact, good posts, KAM.

[samina]

Here's the machine:
http://www.amazon.com/Stamina-55-6150-Gyrotonic-Transformer-1500/dp/B0000ARAPR

They'll break the link though. In case they erase it, search on Stamina Gyrotonic Transformer at Amazon. These machine are affordable for home use.

huh, interesting. said they're currently unavailable. i wonder if that's a much older model?

this is the mechanism most use for their training...

https:// www .gyrotonic.com/PulleyTower.asp

[dancepro]

I do what I call "kitchen practices." It's where I work on a pattern (perhaps only 3 steps) over and over again while I wait for the water to boil, fish to fry, or where I happen to be taking a break (I work at home).


I used do very much the same thing. I made rules for myself to help me practice ideas of body movement. I used to call it "home work".
Rule
1) I would do my heel turn in the kitchen while cooking.
2) I would do ankle stretch exercises in the bathroom while brushing teeth, doing hair or washing hands.
3) I would walk back wards down the stairs to make sure I used my toe (Body schools "Ballet Toe"), and didn't reach backward with the legs.
4) When I was sitting down, I would practice "the rule of turn" or devision exercises.
5) I would also practice while shopping for groceries (like my flexibilities and my mobilities).
There was a lot of little things like that, that I used to do. Every little movement was used to practice something I could use in my dancing. I actually still find myself doing many of these exercises even though I have been retired for many years.

Recently I spoke to a former student of mine. He hasn't danced for a couple of years now. He danced from he was very young and created a lot of (wonderful) habits (for a dancer). He told me that he would still catch himself "taking a hold" and checking it in the mirror, when doing things at home. He actually asked me, how stop doing it, as it was no longer of use to him. Funny how so many want to do what he does and he is ready to get rid of the habit.


I go barefoot. That is a requirement. It helps me to really feel the floor and what my feet are doing. However, my teacher saw me practicing barefoot at the studio and he lambasted me. Told me I'd injure my feet. I can't see how so I still practice barefoot at home. Lars Odegard (? sorry, not sure of the name) has his students dance barefoot, so I figure that's good enough for me.


I don't see a problem doing it barefoot as long as the floor is smooth. I have been teaching a student here on my kitchen floor as the studio has been closed over Christmas. They have taken all their lessons either in socks or barefoot. We have done just fine with that.

I think you are thinking of Lasse Odegaard.


Go ahead laugh. I know that sounds funny, but this really works. You learn there is a purpose for all that sway and then suddenly your dancing goals change. Instead of thinking HOW to create sway, you do it out of necessity. Your body finds what works, and in turn, you start to learn to trust your body more.


Most people that are successful are willing to do what others are not willing to do. I think good dancers don't only dance the few hours they spend in the studio. Dancing is a big part of who they are. They think dancing and find ways to practice, that to some may find unrelated to dancing. I for sure don't laugh at you. I applaud you. You must be a great student. I wish all students would do like you. I must say, that many of my students do practice at home. I am very, very fortunate to have great students.

Dancepro

[elisedance]

I think what you are saying dancepro, is that the most effective dancing is not really an activity, a hobby or a profession - its really a way of life. One of the best threads on DF is the one 'you know you are addicted to dancing when..." as in it we list the things we do to improve, maintain or simply keep in contact with dance - sometimes to our own amazement.

Its particularly interesting to me how your accounts and advice seems to only fall on receptive ears, be they the most right (and not surprising) or left brained ones. I think we all sense that what you say has fundamental truth to it. The reason for this, I suspect, is that we get hung up on 'dancesport' or 'social dancing' or 'dance certification' but inside we all know that when you get down to it dance is an end in itself - and that end is only achieved by 'whole body' and 'whole mind' immersion.

But now I am taking the liberty of speaking for others, which is a 'sin' of forums. So please take the above as my opinion alone ;)

[dancepro]

I think what you are saying dancepro, is that the most effective dancing is not really an activity, a hobby or a profession - its really a way of life. One of the best threads on DF is the one 'you know you are addicted to dancing when..." as in it we list the things we do to improve, maintain or simply keep in contact with dance - sometimes to our own amazement.

Dance is a way of being. You will often hear people saying "I am a dancer" or "I am a ......". If what you like to do really becomes part of you, you start saying it as a "I am a ....." sentence. I have said it before in one of my other posts, "dancing is an illustration of life and life is a dance on roses". It a short version of the same I would say "dance is life and life is a dance". So yes, I would say it is a way of life.


Its particularly interesting to me how your accounts and advice seems to only fall on receptive ears, be they the most right (and not surprising) or left brained ones. I think we all sense that what you say has fundamental truth to it. The reason for this, I suspect, is that we get hung up on 'dancesport' or 'social dancing' or 'dance certification' but inside we all know that when you get down to it dance is an end in itself - and that end is only achieved by 'whole body' and 'whole mind' immersion.


The Chinese have a saying that I think is very valid here...."when the student is ready the teacher appears". Everybody is on their own path. They each have to choose what is right for them at any given moment. My teacher used to say that "dancing is dancing. Whether you do social dancing or competitive dancing, you are still working with the same body mechanics and basic principles".

The people that are ready to read what I say will read it and those that are not, will look at other posts. I think that is why DF is so popular, there is something for everybody.

Dancepro

[emeralddancer]

Well ... I am hoping this is appropriate to post this here ... Re-reading all of this again, it is MAJOR helping me. I had a lesson tonight and totally decided to

1. check my ego, pride and dignity at the door when I walked into the studio tonight.

2. just get onto the floor and dance (or rather "practice" but is it REALLY practice if it is dance? LOL) I decided not to think about anything at all and just feel what I was doing. (it is amazing when you just feel and have no worries, ya know?)

3. when pro and I actually started the lesson and went thru what he had been teaching me, mid way through he said "drastic improvement" and "two thumbs up" (shocked the poo outta me, :D and I think he was shocked as well, I was just delighted not to think so much and just FEEL) then he stated "do you want the good or the bad first" honestly it didn't matter to me because

4. nothing bothered me, I was grateful to hear the praise of course, but I know that was not WHY I was there. I was there to learn and to improve upon each skill I am learning. I (for the first time I think) really did not mind the corrections or criticism. These are the building blocks to being a great dancer. (they really were not that bad.)

5. By the end of lesson and on the way home, I felt I learned more today with opening my mind AND body to take in whatever it was my mind and body felt it needed to learn and grow.

I do not think dancing while sick is very wise, but I felt great for awhile, now totally drained!

[dancepro]

Well ... I am hoping this is appropriate to post this here ... Re-reading all of this again, it is MAJOR helping me. I had a lesson tonight and totally decided to

1. check my ego, pride and dignity at the door when I walked into the studio tonight.


Bravooo, you are on the way to experience great things. Well done:)


2. just get onto the floor and dance (or rather "practice" but is it REALLY practice if it is dance? LOL) I decided not to think about anything at all and just feel what I was doing. (it is amazing when you just feel and have no worries, ya know?)
[quote]

I am glad that you were brave enough to try it out. I am glad you felt amazing. Again well done.:)

[quote]
3. when pro and I actually started the lesson and went thru what he had been teaching me, mid way through he said "drastic improvement" and "two thumbs up" (shocked the poo outta me, :D and I think he was shocked as well, I was just delighted not to think so much and just FEEL) then he stated "do you want the good or the bad first" honestly it didn't matter to me because


You got instant gratification...amazing isn't it... love to hear this.


4. nothing bothered me, I was grateful to hear the praise of course, but I know that was not WHY I was there. I was there to learn and to improve upon each skill I am learning. I (for the first time I think) really did not mind the corrections or criticism. These are the building blocks to being a great dancer. (they really were not that bad.)


You understood the positiveness in constructive criticism. Well done. You ego must really have been checked at the door. I love to hear that.


5. By the end of lesson and on the way home, I felt I learned more today with opening my mind AND body to take in whatever it was my mind and body felt it needed to learn and grow.

I do not think dancing while sick is very wise, but I felt great for awhile, now totally drained!

I am proved of you:). You were brave enough to try out a new concept and go for it 100%. I can only say well done and keep up the good work. With that kind of attitude I am sure you are on the way to greatness. Look forward to hear what your experience is as you get used to this way of learning.

Dancepro

[emeralddancer]

Bravooo, you are on the way to experience great things. Well done:)

[quote]
2. just get onto the floor and dance (or rather "practice" but is it REALLY practice if it is dance? LOL) I decided not to think about anything at all and just feel what I was doing. (it is amazing when you just feel and have no worries, ya know?)
[quote]

I am glad that you were brave enough to try it out. I am glad you felt amazing. Again well done.:)



You got instant gratification...amazing isn't it... love to hear this.



You understood the positiveness in constructive criticism. Well done. You ego must really have been checked at the door. I love to hear that.



I am proved of you:). You were brave enough to try out a new concept and go for it 100%. I can only say well done and keep up the good work. With that kind of attitude I am sure you are on the way to greatness. Look forward to hear what your experience is as you get used to this way of learning.

Dancepro


Well Dancepro ... honestly since conversing with you, the things you have discussed with me privately and the things you have stated publicly made "sense" to me in my head. Something in your words really resignates within me.

However ... it had taken some time between conversations and postings to put what you were saying into positive action.

Alot IS the EGO. Once I could FINALLY (with the help of Malawaka, Casey and Samina - yes ALL 3 of you have been a tremendous help to me and I can not thank you enough!) let it go and realize that it was OK to do that without losing myself as a person, things felt like they kicked into another level tonight.

Now it is just to keep this up and not back slide, OR if there is a speed bump to focus and have fun.

We shall see how this progresses. AM looking forward to the ride. :D

[elisedance]

The reason what you say resonates with me dancepro, is that it describes the state I am in when I dance my best - when, as EM is describing, you release your personal control over dance and let yourself become an extension of the lead. From reading your posts (and KaMs) I can now 'classify' this state and 'take possession' of it.

The bigger challenge fo rme is the best method of growth, feeding this 'dance state' with new information and trainng so that it grows and intensifies. To do that I still have to step out of it, add new information (left brain) and then graudally iincorporate that information so that it becomes seamless. What I gather from your posts is that there is a shortcut that permits the addition of new information without necessarily slipping out of the right-brained dance mode. If I could master that I think I could learn exceedingly fast indeed.

[katandmouse]

huh, interesting. said they're currently unavailable. i wonder if that's a much older model?



Google "Stamina Gyrotonic Transformer" and you'll find home versions. Gaiam also carries them, but they cost more there. Still less than 5 sessions with a personal trainer, though. In San Jose there is a studio that has a roomful of machines that you can use for a monthly membership fee after you fulfill an initial 10 private lesson requirement.

[katandmouse]

Well ... I am hoping this is appropriate to post this here ... Re-reading all of this again, it is MAJOR helping me. I had a lesson tonight ...mid way through he said "drastic improvement" and "two thumbs up" (shocked the poo outta me, :D and I think he was shocked as well, I was just delighted not to think so much and just FEEL)

5. By the end of lesson and on the way home, I felt I learned more today with opening my mind AND body to take in whatever it was my mind and body felt it needed to learn and grow.


I second the emotion - BRAVO!!! That's it!!! Keep it up! And please let us know what you learn along the way from the experience.

[katandmouse]

... What I gather from your posts is that there is a shortcut that permits the addition of new information without necessarily slipping out of the right-brained dance mode. If I could master that I think I could learn exceedingly fast indeed.

I'd like to know dancepro's take on that as well.

You might also try reframing information into right-brain awareness. Forgive me if I said this already but when information is presented to you, instead of trying to memorize facts, imagine what it would feel like to do it. Form a mental picture of you doing it.

I have to say that since I started taking lessons this way, in the right brain mode, I stopped having to take notes. Before then, I'd have pages after each lesson. Now I go home and think, "What's there to write - on paper anyway. It's already written in my bones."

[katandmouse]

Just have to say, me and mouse have enjoyed this so much.
Thank you all for participating in a very exciting discussion!

[elisedance]

You might also try reframing information into right-brain awareness. Forgive me if I said this already but when information is presented to you, instead of trying to memorize facts, imagine what it would feel like to do it. Form a mental picture of you doing it.

I have to say that since I started taking lessons in the right brain mode, I stopped having to take notes. Before then, I'd have pages after each lesson. Now I go home and think, "What's there to write - on paper anyway? It's already written in my bones."

Thanks -I'll give that a try - or rather more of a try. IMO all learning involves both processes - a 'characterization and breakdown' together with an 'absorption and idiation' (if you forgive my terms). However, I am trained (probably most of us are) to have more faith in the former because, well, its accurate. Once you have all the elements down you feel comfortable that the lesson has been contained. Of cousre at that point you don't know it at all, its just a first step to knowing it. As you say, if you knew it why would you need to write it down at all?

So maybe that is my key (sorry if I am being a bit dense here!) - place more reliance on the 'idea' of the movement and less on its mechanics. I doubt one could replace all of the latter - some aspects of each type of dance must surely be learned. An analogy is language and poetry. We have to learn language before we can write or understand poetry. But you can not write (meaningful) poetry by mechanics. You really have to forget the language itself and permit the mind to create ideas. However, returning to dance, once the mechanics of movement have been well and truly learned (the language) it should be possible to dispense with 'charactraization and breakdown' almost entirely.

There, I'm talking myself through the process. I'm sure others got to this point way faster than I can - but I have a lot of Left Braininess to contradict ;)

[katandmouse]

Thanks -I'll give that a try - or rather more of a try. IMO all learning involves both processes - a 'characterization and breakdown' together with an 'absorption and idiation' (if you forgive my terms). However, I am trained (probably most of us are) to have more faith in the former because, well, its accurate. Once you have all the elements down you feel comfortable that the lesson has been contained. Of cousre at that point you don't know it at all, its just a first step to knowing it.


I used to do it that way, but now I do it differently. I do not feel I have to intellectualize it to get it into my body. Instead, I take the details and conceptualize them. When I have my REAL "ah ah" moments, it's not that my brain has finally comprehended something. It's that my body has. And what's not accurate about that? That's where all this information needs to get to eventually, and the faster it gets there the better. There is no need to hold it up in the brain. Sometimes it doesn't even need to go there at all!

One day in a practice with my partner, I asked him to let me backlead him in a weave. I wanted him to smooth out his movement and demonstrated to him what it should feel like. He followed me well and I exclaimed, "That's it! Well done!" Then he looked down to the floor like he was in deep study. I asked him what he was doing. He said he was trying to figure out what he did. I said, "Why? You can do it. Why put back into the brain what's already reached its destination?"

The point is there was absolutely no need for him to figure out in his brain what he did if he already figured it out in his body, is there?

But someone might say, "I need to figure out what I did so I can recall it later." There is value in that, certainly! But the best approach would be to do it a few times so the body can recall it.


So maybe that is my key (sorry if I am being a bit dense here!) - place more reliance on the 'idea' of the movement and less on its mechanics. I doubt one could replace all of the latter - some aspects of each type of dance must surely be learned. An analogy is language and poetry. We have to learn language before we can write or understand poetry. But you can not write (meaningful) poetry by mechanics. You really have to forget the language itself and permit the mind to create ideas.


Well said!!


However, returning to dance, once the mechanics of movement have been well and truly learned (the language) it should be possible to dispense with 'charactraization and breakdown' almost entirely.

For me this is true. I do, however, learn the mechanics without spending much time analyzing them. I learn by doing.

Someone sent me a link to a right brain test. In that test there was a question about how you'd go about hanging up a picture. The left brained person would get out the level and tape measure. The right brained person would eyeball it and then adjust it and do it again if need be.

My husband represents the left brain. He'd get that picture hanging perfectly and he'd tell me I'm wasting time eyeballing it because it would take a few times of moving the nail to get it just right. Maybe. But what I do know is that when I got that picture hung, I'd sit back and enjoy the beauty of the picture. He'd be admiring the fact that it was level and that it was hung equal distant between the door and the window. I'd like to think that the judges are more drawn to the pretty picture. ;-)

[Casey]

Warren told me how to quote a msg, but I still can't. Anyway, dancesportinfo has the most incredible info for left-brained research -- Adele Preston danced amateur w/ David Griffin.

[Angel HI]

I have been trying to instill in students, and some here on the DF, this concept of learning for a long time. I'm glad to see it finally being recognized/realized.

[katandmouse]

I have been trying to instill in students, and some here on the DF, this concept of learning for a long time. I'm glad to see it finally being recognized/realized.

Please share with us your ideas!

[katandmouse]

I just 'spoke' with Barry Green, author of Inner Game of Music. He will be doing a workshop for dancers on this topic in February or March in the SF Bay Area. I'll let you all know how it goes. He travels to other parts of the United States giving workshops, so I would not at all be surprised if any of you can get him to come to your area as well.

kat

[mamboqueen]

I just 'spoke' with Barry Green, author of Inner Game of Music. He will be doing a workshop for dancers on this topic in February or March in the SF Bay Area. I'll let you all know how it goes. He travels to other parts of the United States giving workshops, so I would not at all be surprised if any of you can get him to come to your area as well.

kat

oh lordy...can you time it with the SF Open??? :)

[elisedance]

I am trying to apply these principles to both my dancing and my violin at the same time.... with the latter instead of just listening to the music I am trying to learn (on CD or whatever) I'm imagining that i am playing it. So, no learning passages, just straight to the product. I suspect that thats also what the top musicians do - much as the slalom skiier imagines her way down the hill before setting off...

[katandmouse]

oh lordy...can you time it with the SF Open??? :)

What a great idea!! I'll do my best.

Are you going to City Lights Ball by any chance? They are trying to set up a workshop with Mirko and Alessia. Maybe we can combine them.

[katandmouse]

Warren told me how to quote a msg, but I still can't. Anyway, dancesportinfo has the most incredible info for left-brained research

Can you copy and paste the url? I can't even find his handle in the member list to find it that way.

[dancepro]

Well Dancepro ... honestly since conversing with you, the things you have discussed with me privately and the things you have stated publicly made "sense" to me in my head. Something in your words really resignates within me.


I am glad that you have found it useful. I have sometime felt that I am talking to a door and there is nobody behind the door. You have given me hope and energy to continue the quest of getting information out into main stream. Thank you for letting me know.:)

However ... it had taken some time between conversations and postings to put what you were saying into positive action.

Alot IS the EGO. Once I could FINALLY (with the help of Malawaka, Casey and Samina - yes ALL 3 of you have been a tremendous help to me and I can not thank you enough!) let it go and realize that it was OK to do that without losing myself as a person, things felt like they kicked into another level tonight.
[/quote]

It is great to have friends like Malawaka, Casey and Samina to help and support you. I am fortunate enough to also enjoy their friendship.

I am sure, you will be more sure and confident with yourself once you let go. It is funny that the more you let go, the more you are in control. It is like trying to grab water. If you let go of tension and hold the hands open like a bowl you can hold some water. But once to try to grab it, it sips out between your fingers. I think letting go in dancing is much the same way. If you try to hold onto it slips away and if you let go it stays. I hope this make sense to you.


Now it is just to keep this up and not back slide, OR if there is a speed bump to focus and have fun.

We shall see how this progresses. AM looking forward to the ride. :D

If you do slide back let us know. We will help you get back on track;)

Dancepro

[dancepro]

The reason what you say resonates with me dancepro, is that it describes the state I am in when I dance my best - when, as EM is describing, you release your personal control over dance and let yourself become an extension of the lead.


I am glad to be of service and I am glad that you have felt that. Keep up the good work. :)

Dancepro

[dancepro]

I'd like to know dancepro's take on that as well.

You might also try reframing information into right-brain awareness. Forgive me if I said this already but when information is presented to you, instead of trying to memorize facts, imagine what it would feel like to do it. Form a mental picture of you doing it.

I have to say that since I started taking lessons this way, in the right brain mode, I stopped having to take notes. Before then, I'd have pages after each lesson. Now I go home and think, "What's there to write - on paper anyway. It's already written in my bones."

My teacher gave me a great piece of advise on this subject of how to get to the right-brain awareness.
He said that most of the body actions that you do (at least in standard) you have do at one time or another in you real life. Find out where you do the action that the teacher is asking for and then do that daily action in the step.
Say flexing the hip in the standing leg when going backward; when you sit down you are flexing the hips. Just stop before you get all the way down on the chair and feel the action. Going forward in dancing is like walking up on a staircase. I am sure you are not analyzing those actions to bits (for the most part I don't think you ever really did analyze them). You have done those actions for a long time and they come automatically. Use the training you have already done. When I started dancing standard I had to find ways of improving fast. When I started thinking this way, I started thinking that I actually started dancing when I was less then 2 years old learning to sit, stand and walk. In many ways your body are already conditioned to dance, you just need to apply what you learned as a child into your dancing.

Dancepro

[Angel HI]

Please share with us your ideas!
They are all the same as Dancepro has mentioned, and again in her latest post above this one. It is the concept that all of dance by definition is "natural movement" put to a particular rhythm, timing, and styling. If/When one changes either of these elements, one changes the dance. We should not approach dance/dances from the outside-in (as a prescribed/syllabutized book of steps/patterns), rather from the inside-out (a sense of natural movements that we must "first/foremost" become aware of from within, and most commonly found in our everyday, normal motion/s. Dance learned in this manner is acquired; more quickly, more easily, more profoundly.

[katandmouse]

It is the concept that all of dance by definition is "natural movement" put to a particular rhythm, timing, and styling.

Well said.

Interestingly, this is easily seen if you watch a video upside down. If you take a right brain drawing class, this is what you will do to your subject in order to draw it on the right side of the brain. To watch a video this way, you can either turn your laptop upside down, or lay on the floor in front of your TV with the back of your head towards the TV. Put something under your neck to prop it up so your head then falls backwards with the top of the head aiming towards the floor. It doesn't have to be 100% upside down. I watched Fabio Selma and his partner. I didn't do it with the intent to analyze, I just observed, and what I observed was how easy and natural it all was. It really looked like he was just walking!

Geez! All those thousands of dollars to learn how to walk!

I've taught a dance class on occasion, and the first thing I have them do is walk across the room. I have them be aware of the feeling so that they can find it later because I tell them as soon as they start to dance, they'll forget how to walk!

[Angel HI]

It really looked like he was just walking! Geez! All those thousands of dollars to learn how to walk!
I have them be aware of the feeling so that they can find it later because I tell them as soon as they start to dance, they'll forget how to walk!
It has become a standing joke w/ my students b/c I say constantly, "Just walk!" They get so irritated. :)

A mini-hijack..........one monday a couple arrived for their lesson, and were laughing very much. I asked, of course, "What's so funny?" He said, "She just spoke with her mother [on the phone], and told her that we were paying you lots of money to teach us something that she should have taught her [the daughter] long ago. We were learning how to walk." The following monday, they arrived, and I jokingly asked, "Talked to your mother, lately?" They both laughed out loud, and he said, "Yes, as a matter of fact. Last week, we told her that we were going to learn how to walk. Tonight, we told her that we were returning....to learn how to count."

Funny.

[Casey]

Can you copy and paste the url? I can't even find his handle in the member list to find it that way.


Voila - a quote! (thanks to Warren & Angel) -- Katandmouse, on the subject of left-brained research, I was just referring to the incredible database the developer of dancesportinfo.net has constructed. He has it set up so that it picks up new partnerships from the results of comps. He only tracks international style, so he might say so and so is no longer dancing if that person has switched to smooth, for example. And a couple of times, he has picked up some pro-am results. But he is happy to fix things if you send him an email. And you can see that all these long time dancers who have grown up together and danced with and against each other are an amazing community.

[elisedance]

.....the incredible database the developer of dancesportinfo.net has constructed.

[this site really is incredible and i could add something to the discussion - but I think DF will agree that it deserves its own thread C - want to start one?]
BOT

AI point taken in general - but can you really describe an international rhumba walk as a 'natural movement'? If it was why does it take so many years to perfect?

[fascination]

well childbirth is natural as well...doesn't mean it's easy

[emeralddancer]

well childbirth is natural as well...doesn't mean it's easy


No truer words could have been spoken .... funny thing is, it ISN'T easy, but we tend to forget because AFTER we realize the joy!

So like dance, the journey is not going to be easy, with pitfalls, speed bumps, falls, bruises, etc ... but the end result, when it all comes together, makes it the greatest ride. (because without the heartaches and pains how would we even know the joy!)

Kinda reminds me of the movie Parenthood with Steven Martin. The grandmother says to him, (paraphrasing here) Some people like merry go rounds, but all they do is go round and around. I like the roller coaster, you go up and down, twist and turn. He looked at her like she was crazy and didn't get it until towards the end of the movie.

I liken that to dance as well as ... Life. Give me the roller coaster any day!

[Ithink]

I haven't contributed to this discussion but have enjoyed reading it very much! A special thanks to dancepro for her insights, especially those into the world of a follower. Several things you said in previous threads, I have tried with good outcomes, especially the one where you said the lady is always looking at the floor when dancing. When I make that my one task to concentrate on (I am a firm believer that, even in practice, a few tasks are better to work on than a multitude) and do it consistently, it feels so balanced and open! So thank you so much for coming on here and sharing your expertise and tricks of the trade:).

If my partner and I are ever on the West Coast (that is where you said you are based, right?), I hope we get to take from you (I will be sure to find out who you are then:)). It sounds like our coach and you are on similar tracks!

[samina]

well childbirth is natural as well...doesn't mean it's easy

to be honest, for some it actually *is* quite easy...i've known them. i would say they probably have minimal resistance to what they have put into action in their life. a powerful thing, with application to dancing...

[skwiggy]

I also have very much enjoyed reading this thread -- and particularly dancepro's contributions. I would absolutely love to study with her.

[fascination]

to be honest, for some it actually *is* quite easy...i've known them. i would say they probably have minimal resistance to what they have put into action in their life. a powerful thing, with application to dancing...
:rolleyes:okay, some...all sorts of things are in theory natural, or natural when a bunch of other impediments can be curtailed...but most folks have impediments that they have to let go of in order to percieve how natural it all is

[katandmouse]

...Several things you said in previous threads, I have tried with good outcomes, especially the one where you said the lady is always looking at the floor when dancing.


I'd be interested in reading that post. Can you tell me where it is?

[Ithink]

Someone could, I am sure. I have no idea what it was called though:( Sorry!

[elisedance]

I'd be interested in reading that post. Can you tell me where it is?

Let me do the TC honours here:
It was called 'Looking at the ceiling"

http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=25984&highlight=ceiling&page=2

[dancepro]

They are all the same as Dancepro has mentioned, and again in her latest post above this one. It is the concept that all of dance by definition is "natural movement" put to a particular rhythm, timing, and styling. If/When one changes either of these elements, one changes the dance. We should not approach dance/dances from the outside-in (as a prescribed/syllabutized book of steps/patterns), rather from the inside-out (a sense of natural movements that we must "first/foremost" become aware of from within, and most commonly found in our everyday, normal motion/s. Dance learned in this manner is acquired; more quickly, more easily, more profoundly.

It is actually only the Body and Square school that are the schools that are working from the inside-out. The Round and Traditional school works from the outside-in. I personally prefer the inside-out concept, but there are others that believe in the other way around. I have found that many of my students tend to learn faster working from inside-out rather then from outside-in.

Dancepro

[dancepro]

Well said.

Interestingly, this is easily seen if you watch a video upside down. If you take a right brain drawing class, this is what you will do to your subject in order to draw it on the right side of the brain. To watch a video this way, you can either turn your laptop upside down, or lay on the floor in front of your TV with the back of your head towards the TV. Put something under your neck to prop it up so your head then falls backwards with the top of the head aiming towards the floor. It doesn't have to be 100% upside down. I watched Fabio Selma and his partner. I didn't do it with the intent to analyze, I just observed, and what I observed was how easy and natural it all was. It really looked like he was just walking!

Geez! All those thousands of dollars to learn how to walk!

I've taught a dance class on occasion, and the first thing I have them do is walk across the room. I have them be aware of the feeling so that they can find it later because I tell them as soon as they start to dance, they'll forget how to walk!

My teacher used to always say that good dancers walk. He said, it should feel just like walking in the park. After working with my teacher for about 5 month I hit a barrier. He told me to "just walk". For three month that was the only thing, he would say to me "just walk". It was driving me nuts, but he kept going with "just walk". I would ask him, if he wanted coffee or tea, his answer was "just walk". I had to have my partner ask him to get answers other then "just walk". After three month of 5 lessons a week it was becoming very, very frustrating. One day my partner and I had a disagreement and decided to stop the practice. I wanted to get some fresh air and think about it, so I walked back to my apartment. As I was walking home, I was thinking of my teachers words "just walk". I suddenly understood what he had been telling me for the last three month. I got home, called my partner and we went back to the studio to practice. After 10 minutes of practice my teacher came up to us and said "it looks like you finally understood what I have been asking for". From that day on I "just walked" and the results started happening with very rapid pace. It was just amazing what I was able to do from that day on.:D

Dancepro

[samina]

:rolleyes:okay, some...all sorts of things are in theory natural, or natural when a bunch of other impediments can be curtailed...but most folks have impediments that they have to let go of in order to percieve how natural it all is

i agree...and how effectively one is able to shake those impediments out is probly the very crux of how to achieve a quantum shift, like the sculpturist who releases the work of art within.

i think most people concentrate on the impediments, which creates resistance to "what is", which creates so much frustration that we usually seek to medicate it out of our awareness. (following the birthing analogy...)

focusing unswervingly on a vision of what we feel compelled to express seems a faster path to find the bridge to it.

[dancepro]

I haven't contributed to this discussion but have enjoyed reading it very much! A special thanks to dancepro for her insights, especially those into the world of a follower. Several things you said in previous threads, I have tried with good outcomes, especially the one where you said the lady is always looking at the floor when dancing. When I make that my one task to concentrate on (I am a firm believer that, even in practice, a few tasks are better to work on than a multitude) and do it consistently, it feels so balanced and open! So thank you so much for coming on here and sharing your expertise and tricks of the trade:).

If my partner and I are ever on the West Coast (that is where you said you are based, right?), I hope we get to take from you (I will be sure to find out who you are then:)). It sounds like our coach and you are on similar tracks!

Thank you for your compliments. It is a pleasure to hear and see the improvements that has come out of my few insights.
In regard to where I am, I am everywhere and nowhere. I am seldom in one place longer then one week. Sorry to sound so mystical but it is the truth.
I am sure there are other coaches out that are on the same or similar tracks.

Dancepro

[samina]

My teacher used to always say that good dancers walk. He said, it should feel just like walking in the park. After working with my teacher for about 5 month I hit a barrier. He told me to "just walk". For three month that was the only thing, he would say to me "just walk". It was driving me nuts, but he kept going with "just walk". I would ask him, if he wanted coffee or tea, his answer was "just walk". I had to have my partner ask him to get answers other then "just walk". After three month of 5 lessons a week it was becoming very, very frustrating. One day my partner and I had a disagreement and decided to stop the practice. I wanted to get some fresh air and think about it, so I walked back to my apartment. As I was walking home, I was thinking of my teachers words "just walk". I suddenly understood what he had been telling me for the last three month. I got home, called my partner and we went back to the studio to practice. After 10 minutes of practice my teacher came up to us and said "it looks like you finally understood what I have been asking for". From that day on I "just walked" and the results started happening with very rapid pace. It was just amazing what I was able to do from that day on.:D

Dancepro

i've been hearing "just walk" from one coach for a couple months, and finally last week i had an experience with him of that "walking easiness", which sunk in to a new level and was deeply transformative. suddenly i could feel & experience how easy the dancing was meant to be, which although i may have intellectually conceptualized before, i just never "got" in my body & energy as i did in that moment. it sunk into my dreams, into my sense of self, my awareness of my life & where i have been & where i am going...it was very powerful!

i danced so much more freely at this last comp, and i attribute it to that shift. it was so relaxing & enjoyable!

[fascination]

i agree...and how effectively one is able to shake those impediments out is probly the very crux of how to achieve a quantum shift, like the sculpturist who releases the work of art within.

i think most people concentrate on the impediments, which creates resistance to "what is", which creates so much frustration that we usually seek to medicate it out of our awareness. (following the birthing analogy...)

focusing unswervingly on a vision of what we feel compelled to express seems a faster path to find the bridge to it.
sure...and there is no doubt that the right path is one that feels effortless when one has lighted upon it...this was always something I appreciated from my coachings with Glenis...it was always as if she was removing boulders and saying "there, doesn't that feel better?"...and the answer was always "of course"...b/c it made so much sense...and it is one of those things that NP is very much about as well...which is why the man simply never gets tired...my goal is for that to be more than fleeting...which it is now in standard and smooth...even there alot in latin...just not on forward walks...he still thinks I need a drink;)

[dancepro]

A good dancer can do both the initiation and the respond. I have learned to do both. A man initiate the first part and the lady the second part. If we have a three step patten like a Feather Step. The man initiate the first step (step one) and the lady initiate the last two steps (step 2 and 3). So from that account I did do more initiating then my partner did. Do I "lead" or do I "follow" well that depends on what we are talking about. I initiate all my jobs and expect my partner to initiate his jobs.

[samina]

sure...and there is no doubt that the right path is one that feels effortless when one has lighted upon it...this was always something I appreciated from my coachings with Glenis...it was always as if she was removing boulders and saying "there, doesn't that feel better?"...and the answer was always "of course"...b/c it made so much sense...and it is one of those things that NP is very much about as well...which is why the man simply never gets tired...my goal is for that to be more than fleeting...which it is now in standard and smooth...even there alot in latin...just not on forward walks...he still thinks I need a drink;)

lol...you should try one, then. :)

but yes, i know exactly what you mean. when it works, it all just makes sense. "feels logical" is what i always say when the experience emerges, meaning just so obvious & easy to understand. even tho mebbe it took me awhile to get to the place where i could understand!

[mamboqueen]

rumbatini ;)

[samina]

tequilero ;)

[fascination]

double ...neat

[mamboqueen]

sambopolitan

[fascination]

THAT one...is a must

[samina]

you like samba now? that IS a quantum shift! hahaha...

[dancepro]

i've been hearing "just walk" from one coach for a couple months, and finally last week i had an experience with him of that "walking easiness", which sunk in to a new level and was deeply transformative. suddenly i could feel & experience how easy the dancing was meant to be, which although i may have intellectually conceptualized before, i just never "got" in my body & energy as i did in that moment. it sunk into my dreams, into my sense of self, my awareness of my life & where i have been & where i am going...it was very powerful!

i danced so much more freely at this last comp, and i attribute it to that shift. it was so relaxing & enjoyable!

Dancing is really very, very easy. The most difficult part is to realize how easy it is. We all try to make it as difficult as possible for a while and then, hopefully we change and it become easier. My teacher used to say that the faster you give up make it difficult, the faster you will improve. He told me that it should take no more then 6 month to reach a high level of dancing, if you are totally open in mind and body. I don't know anybody that has done it that fast, but I don't think he would have said it, if he didn't believe it.

Dancepro

[fascination]

love it ...still...those fwd thingeys, cruzados or whatever they are called...are...evil...basically, I need a drink for all forward motion in most dances...all other directions are fine...hence the sig line

[fascination]

Dancing is really very, very easy. The most difficult part is to realize how easy it is. We all try to make it as difficult as possible for a while and then, hopefully we change and it become easier. My teacher used to say that the faster you give up make it difficult, the faster you will improve. He told me that it should take no more then 6 month to reach a high level of dancing, if you are totally open in mind and body. I don't know anybody that has done it that fast, but I don't think he would have said it, if he didn't believe it.

Dancepro
am certain that is true...seems like on every lesson most of what I am learning now is to stop making it so hard...sheesh ;)

[samina]

Dancing is really very, very easy. The most difficult part is to realize how easy it is. We all try to make it as difficult as possible for a while and then, hopefully we change and it become easier. My teacher used to say that the faster you give up make it difficult, the faster you will improve. He told me that it should take no more then 6 month to reach a high level of dancing, if you are totally open in mind and body. I don't know anybody that has done it that fast, but I don't think he would have said it, if he didn't believe it.

Dancepro

that is very encouraging to hear. quantum shift indeed...

[barrefly]

Dancing is really very, very easy. The most difficult part is to realize how easy it is. We all try to make it as difficult as possible for a while and then, hopefully we change and it become easier. My teacher used to say that the faster you give up make it difficult, the faster you will improve. He told me that it should take no more then 6 month to reach a high level of dancing, if you are totally open in mind and body. I don't know anybody that has done it that fast, but I don't think he would have said it, if he didn't believe it.

Dancepro

I somewhat agree, but it would depend on one's dance background. My daughter studied the 3 dance (Ballet, Jazz, Tap, LOL) since she was kneehigh. When she got older, she took up other forms of dance. At 9, she studied Flamenco and was near advanced in about 8 months..including playing the castanets. She even spotlighted a big suit and tie event for the biz community that included the mayor of our city.
Hiphop, at 11 and was in the highest class in less than 6 mos. and dancing at pro. studios like the Edge, and Millennium.
When she was 12, she started salsa dance and was an advanced dancer in 6 mos.

To think that one could get to an advanced level in any particular form of dance, in 6 mos, without a dance background ,would be a stretch in my opinion.

[waltzguy]

Dancepro,

So, instead of Int'l Standard Slow Foxtrot being recognized as the most difficult dance in its five-dance family, it should be the easiest, since it has a "walking" motion?

What about the tango? In real life, I don't recall having too many sharp movements. In my previous tango lesson, my instructor told me to have that sharpness, eg. in prominade link. So, of course, I analyzed. Well, I'm going to try changing the whole approach. Just let it all go, don't overthink.

With your approach, I am really curious what order of difficulty are the five Standard dances, in your opinion. Can they all be easiest? ;)

[emeralddancer]

Dancepro,

So, instead of Int'l Standard Slow Foxtrot being recognized as the most difficult dance in its five-dance family, it should be the easiest, since it has a "walking" motion?

What about the tango? In real life, I don't recall having too many sharp movements. In my previous tango lesson, my instructor told me to have that sharpness, eg. in prominade link. So, of course, I analyzed. Well, I'm going to try changing the whole approach. Just let it all go, don't overthink.

With your approach, I am really curious what order of difficulty are the five Standard dances, in your opinion. Can they all be easiest? ;)

I am interested in a response to this as well. As this too has come up in conversation with my pro, especially the Foxtrot and Tango today. Hm ....

[Josh]

instead of Int'l Standard Slow Foxtrot being recognized as the most difficult dance in its five-dance family, it should be the easiest, since it has a "walking" motion?

On a related note, I used to refer to it as the "most difficult" and so on, and samba as the most difficult latin, etc., but these labels get associated with it and it puts up a real mental block sometimes. Outsiders to standard think quickstep is the hardest dance, and I am quick to demystify that as I did with a quickstep beginner group class the other night who thought it was sooo hard. I told them that if they could do a half decent waltz, quickstep would be easy, since they're quite similar especially at a bronze level. Sometimes something seems difficult because it's unfamiliar. So no more "hardest dance" stuff from me! :-)

[emeralddancer]

On a related note, I used to refer to it as the "most difficult" and so on, and samba as the most difficult latin, etc., but these labels get associated with it and it puts up a real mental block sometimes. Outsiders to standard think quickstep is the hardest dance, and I am quick to demystify that as I did with a quickstep beginner group class the other night who thought it was sooo hard. I told them that if they could do a half decent waltz, quickstep would be easy, since they're quite similar especially at a bronze level. Sometimes something seems difficult because it's unfamiliar. So no more "hardest dance" stuff from me! :-)

I was surprised to find a lock in the waltz like in quickstep. I was a happy surprises because i like doing it. LOL

More importantly, I like how these dances (with the exception of Tango, but may change my mind) have similarities that I can now start to identify.

[and123]

Remember these warm happy feelings for those days when you have Lessons That Suck.

[emeralddancer]

Remember these warm happy feelings for those days when you have Lessons That Suck.

Been there done that ..... complete breakdown, tears, screaming and all (on the phone to a friend) AND still managed to say i love it, IN the same sentence. LOL

BTW ... I am sure I will have many MANY more .... then you all here can remind me with these posts. :p

[katandmouse]

Dancing is really very, very easy. The most difficult part is to realize how easy it is. We all try to make it as difficult as possible for a while and then, hopefully we change and it become easier. My teacher used to say that the faster you give up make it difficult, the faster you will improve. He told me that it should take no more then 6 month to reach a high level of dancing, if you are totally open in mind and body. I don't know anybody that has done it that fast, but I don't think he would have said it, if he didn't believe it.

Dancepro

I actually believe getting the mechanics in 6 month is possible with the right body and right brain, but getting the musicality does not come so easy. I've played music my whole life and so now I'm a musical dancer. But even as a child I was recognized for my talent and musical expression. I was born with it. This is a much harder thing to teach and acquire, and without it, you can only go so far as a dancer. Without it, I don't think you will ever acquire greatness.

During this last year as I've been exploring and studying how to learn and teach dance, I've also been trying to come up with ways to teach musicality - both in music and dance. (Don't get any wrong ideas. This is just a passionate hobby of mine.) Opening up the right brain is definitely a step in the right direction.

Barry Green author of "The Inner Game of Music," also wrote on this subject: http://www.innergameofmusic.com/articles/ac-mastery-tenpathways.html

When I spoke to him about teaching an "Inner Game" workshop for dancers, he said he had, coincidentally, just signed up for ballroom dance lessons as part of his study on how to get more musicality into his music students. He feels he can do this through dance.

I said, "But if dance begets musicality, then why do I see robotic, expressionless dancers on the floor?"

He said putting a musician on the dancefloor takes them out of their element.

Ah, I can see that. That would essentially help turn on the right brain because they couldn't be so analytical about something they knew little about.

Likewise, then, to get a dancer to be musical it would good to put them in a different element. I often said to friends, "If you want to improve your Standard, take up West Coast Swing." Now I understand why.

But can we really teach ourselves to be musical?

I'm reading "Musicophilia" by Oliver Sacks. He is a professor of neurology and psychiatry. In the cases he writes about, people have actual physical changes in their brains to bring about miraculous, musical awakenings. Maybe true musicality is really hard-wired and can't be learned, then.

I'll have to ask Barry and read that book. I have tried to teach musical expression, and it is difficult, if not impossible. With some, I can tell them where to play loud or soft, fast or slow, and they can get a semblance of expression, but it may only ever be a semblance.

I see that on the dance floor too. Some dancers can stage and choreograph their presentation so well that it appears musical. But you can sure tell the difference between those and the ones who have the real thing.

And so now, Elise, the speedy path to greatness is taking another turn.

[barrefly]

When my daughter was studying modern dance at this studio, there were some disadvantaged kids that were sponsored by a generous individual, also taking classes (open classes)..
There was this one girl that was very attractive, 5'6"ish that had only been dancing months, that came from an abusive home. Most of the modern routines, (Horton, Limon, Humphrey etc.) she had trouble with. But when they were learning a lyrical number,...she was transported by the music and danced as if she had danced all her life.. It was very beautiful. What really affected me was that I noticed that while she danced....tears ran from her eyes. I get goosebumps just thinking about it.

[dancepro]

Dancepro,

So, instead of Int'l Standard Slow Foxtrot being recognized as the most difficult dance in its five-dance family, it should be the easiest, since it has a "walking" motion?

What about the tango? In real life, I don't recall having too many sharp movements. In my previous tango lesson, my instructor told me to have that sharpness, eg. in prominade link. So, of course, I analyzed. Well, I'm going to try changing the whole approach. Just let it all go, don't overthink.

With your approach, I am really curious what order of difficulty are the five Standard dances, in your opinion. Can they all be easiest? ;)

If I told you that something was difficult enough times, you would soon start to believe me. I don't think Foxtrot is a difficult dance but because we hear it all the time we start to believe it. This kind of thinking is good for business..... I can't believe I just said that...sorry, oh well, I will leave it there. I am probably going to hear for that, oh well... what new...

Tango is a dance that plays with time. Time can be change to appear different then it really is. If you are slow before and after a quick action, the quick action will appear faster then it really is.

Well, I was taught to "just walk" all the standard dances. So I think all the dances are about equal in ease (don't like the word "difficulty" as it programs the mind to work harder, if the mind work harder so will the body).

I will however grade the dances as to the amount energy output needed.
I will start with the dance that has the least energy needed to dance it and end the list with the dance that needs the most energy out put.

1) Tango
2) Foxtrot
3) Quickstep
4) Viennese waltz
5) Waltz

Now, this is just what my partner and I found after experimenting for a while. After we made the list we checked with our teacher and he gave the same order.

Dancepro

[dancepro]

On a related note, I used to refer to it as the "most difficult" and so on, and samba as the most difficult latin, etc., but these labels get associated with it and it puts up a real mental block sometimes. Outsiders to standard think quickstep is the hardest dance, and I am quick to demystify that as I did with a quickstep beginner group class the other night who thought it was sooo hard. I told them that if they could do a half decent waltz, quickstep would be easy, since they're quite similar especially at a bronze level. Sometimes something seems difficult because it's unfamiliar. So no more "hardest dance" stuff from me! :-)

Thank you for that post Josh

Dancepro

[QPO]

So true,, I have had lessons that I just cant understand a word my pro says.. its like he is speaking another language. Then another time it is like yes I know exactly what you mean!:cheers:

Remember these warm happy feelings for those days when you have Lessons That Suck.

[Angel HI]

Originally Posted by Angel HI http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=648375#post648375)
They are all the same as Dancepro has mentioned, and again in her latest post above this one. It is the concept that all of dance by definition is "natural movement" put to a particular rhythm, timing, and styling. If/When one changes either of these elements, one changes the dance. We should not approach dance/dances from the outside-in (as a prescribed/syllabutized book of steps/patterns), rather from the inside-out (a sense of natural movements that we must "first/foremost" become aware of from within, and most commonly found in our everyday, normal motion/s. Dance learned in this manner is acquired; more quickly, more easily, more profoundly.
It is actually only the Body and Square school that are the schools that are working from the inside-out. The Round and Traditional school works from the outside-in. I personally prefer the inside-out concept, ...
This is exactly what I have tried to convey all of my career. One of my regulars said that is astounding how she hears my voice through your words. Where were you when I was getting beaten up by CS on another thread? Thank you for the confirmation. Some key concepts that many should meditate on daily......

A good dancer can do both the initiation and the respond. The man initiate the first step (step one) and the lady initiate the last two steps (step 2 and 3).

If I told you that something was difficult enough times, you would soon start to believe me. I don't think Foxtrot is a difficult dance .... This kind of thinking is good for business

Tango is a dance that plays with time. Time can be changed to appear different then it really is.

Well, I was taught to "just walk" all the standard dances. So I think all the dances are about equal in ease (don't like the word "difficulty" ...

Not good, but GREAT STUFF!!!!

[elisedance]

Putting it to work.

I am approaching my dancing with a new perspective. I have no idea where it will lead and, hence, it is scary. I can't say the it is fundamentally different - it isn't since what I am doing really is change in perspective and emphasis. A bit of self examination (due to and during this thread) has shown me that I really do do both left- and right-brained dancing - left (LB) has always been reserved for learning (stop, break it down to the foot, rise and fall, sway etc actions) and right (RB) for, if you like, performing (use what I've learned and apply my natural musicality). RB dancing is there and has always been there but I just never had a term for it - and more important I never had faith in it as a guiding principle and not just an expresson/perforiming one.

In the past whenever something went wrong during dancing (or during a lesson) I always tried to fix it by trying it again while mentally going through what I am supposed to do. This does not work - I go stiff and start to panic about what will happen next. Same thing for competitions. I would deal with weaker routines by trying to fully memorize them - and the video shows the tense non-musical dancer doing the right steps (whoopie).

So the difference in my pro lesson yesterday and in my practise with DP today is that I am revising the role of RB dancing. Sure I have to learn new steps and there are elements that require analysis (LB) but what has really changed is that I have much more faith in my RB. Instead of trying to think my way through the routine I'm actually doing the opposite - I am relaxing into it and thinking about the beauty of dance. Thus, RB is really becoming dominant. I can't say I'm completely there yet (the LB will in!) but the change in emphasis and most of all my new faith RB dancing (and thats not the end of it) is truly transformative.

For me this has been the most amazing thread on DF - and I am very hungry to learn more.

thanks all - and especially of course dancepro

[dancepro]

So true,, I have had lessons that I just cant understand a word my pro says.. its like he is speaking another language. Then another time it is like yes I know exactly what you mean!:cheers:

That is sometime one of the biggest problems in dancing, language. I have always worked a lot with Asian students, suffice to say a big language difference. They all say that, they have to learn two kinds of English to take dance lessons and interact in an English speaking country. They have to learn "Dance English" and "Daily English". There are words and sentences that are said and if you don't understand "Dance English" they have no meaning. I remember when I first moved to England having the exact same experience. My teacher said "you have got to get on, in and out of every foot". I understood each and every word of what he was saying in "Daily English" but didn't understand what he meant in "Dance English". The words he used were very simple but the meaning was so deep, that it required some time to figure out what he really meant. I have found that some of my English speaking (born in an English speaking country) students have a problem understanding that there is two different languages that have to learn to understand the instructions of dance. I have live in an English speaking country for many years now, but I still find it difficult to understand English like "Medical English" and other kinds of specialized English. One of my teachers calls it "being separated by a common language". If you don't understand "Dance English" some of the things asked for will not be fully understood.
This might be the reason why so many bilingual dancers in Europe, are so good dancers. They really have to think of every word spoken to them and figured what was really meant by the spoken word.

Dancepro

[dancepro]

Originally Posted by Angel HI http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=648375#post648375)
They are all the same as Dancepro has mentioned, and again in her latest post above this one. It is the concept that all of dance by definition is "natural movement" put to a particular rhythm, timing, and styling. If/When one changes either of these elements, one changes the dance. We should not approach dance/dances from the outside-in (as a prescribed/syllabutized book of steps/patterns), rather from the inside-out (a sense of natural movements that we must "first/foremost" become aware of from within, and most commonly found in our everyday, normal motion/s. Dance learned in this manner is acquired; more quickly, more easily, more profoundly.

This is exactly what I have tried to convey all of my career. One of my regulars said that is astounding how she hears my voice through your words. Where were you when I was getting beaten up by CS on another thread? Thank you for the confirmation.


I am glad that there are people out there that teaches the same principles.

I am sorry I wasn't there to support you when you needed me. If you are ever being beaten up again, pm me and I will be more then happy to support you, if I agree with you. It sounds like I would agree so I don't a problem in supporting you when ever you need it.


Not good, but GREAT STUFF!!!!


Thank you:notworth:

Dancepro

[dancepro]

Putting it to work.

I am approaching my dancing with a new perspective. I have no idea where it will lead and, hence, it is scary. I can't say the it is fundamentally different - it isn't since what I am doing really is change in perspective and emphasis. A bit of self examination (due to and during this thread) has shown me that I really do do both left- and right-brained dancing - left (LB) has always been reserved for learning (stop, break it down to the foot, rise and fall, sway etc actions) and right (RB) for, if you like, performing (use what I've learned and apply my natural musicality). RB dancing is there and has always been there but I just never had a term for it - and more important I never had faith in it as a guiding principle and not just an expresson/perforiming one.

In the past whenever something went wrong during dancing (or during a lesson) I always tried to fix it by trying it again while mentally going through what I am supposed to do. This does not work - I go stiff and start to panic about what will happen next. Same thing for competitions. I would deal with weaker routines by trying to fully memorize them - and the video shows the tense non-musical dancer doing the right steps (whoopie).

So the difference in my pro lesson yesterday and in my practise with DP today is that I am revising the role of RB dancing. Sure I have to learn new steps and there are elements that require analysis (LB) but what has really changed is that I have much more faith in my RB. Instead of trying to think my way through the routine I'm actually doing the opposite - I am relaxing into it and thinking about the beauty of dance. Thus, RB is really becoming dominant. I can't say I'm completely there yet (the LB will in!) but the change in emphasis and most of all my new faith RB dancing (and thats not the end of it) is truly transformative.


It sounds like you have taken the information to heart. Well done and keep up the good work.


For me this has been the most amazing thread on DF - and I am very hungry to learn more.


I think you are on the right (no pun intended) track. I am sure you will come up with other questions now, that will have just as big an impact on your dancing as the answers to this questions has had.


thanks all - and especially of course dancepro
[/quote]

You are most welcome. I am happy to have been able to help you see the light so to speak.

Dancepro

[pruthe]

It is actually only the Body and Square school that are the schools that are working from the inside-out. The Round and Traditional school works from the outside-in. I personally prefer the inside-out concept, but there are others that believe in the other way around. I have found that many of my students tend to learn faster working from inside-out rather then from outside-in.

Dancepro

Could you expand further on the differences between inside-out and outside-in. Maybe an example or two for lead and follow. My initial feeling was that inside-out would be harder to learn, but you say otherwise.

Thanks.

[katandmouse]

See post #184. Anyone care to comment? We've been talking mostly about getting out of the left brain and how one can do that even when they are learning technique and fundamentals.

But we've not touched on musicality.

Elisa wants to know the fastest way to greatness. Isn't musicality a key component of that? It is in my book. Is just being in the right brain enough to develop musicality though? Will it come naturally there? How does one acquire musicality if they aren't born with it?

This is one of those questions with no true answer I believe, but I'd like to hear others' thoughts.

By the way, this will be a question I hope to have Barry Green address in his workshop.

[mamboqueen]

Well, perhaps its best if you start by defining musicality.

(May seem like a silly question, but I usually think "rythmicality" is the same thing and not sure).

FYI, and slightly OT, I looked up musicality on Wikipedia, and there was a link to connection, which I thought was interesting and thought I'd share:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connection_(dance)

[barrefly]

katamdmouse,
I gave my take on this in post #185. Having great timing and technique is one thing, connecting with the music is another (as well as connecting with one's partner). As in the example of the young dancer I mention in my post, the music can transport you if it's in you to do so. It can take over your entire body. (including your facial expression).
Can this be taught to a dancer? Well, if someone figures out how, let me know and I will pay you top dollar to teach it to my lil' one.

Added: ...now this may be part of the secret.
Years ago, I saw a professional dancer from Miami, (contemporary ballet) dance to the music of silence. It was a very powerful performance. Therefore, I think that musicality comes from within.

[dancepro]

Could you expand further on the differences between inside-out and outside-in. Maybe an example or two for lead and follow. My initial feeling was that inside-out would be harder to learn, but you say otherwise.

Thanks.

That is a big question, give me a couple of days to come up with examples that can be described in a simple manner and in written form. As the saying goes "a picture is worth a thousand words" so getting it simplified enough to write down will take some thought. I will get back to you on this.

It is harder to learn using the inside-out if your are dominated by the left-brain. If you however are dominated by the right-brain the inside-out is a far easier way to go. Not everybody is made of the same stuff, but remember that in dancing, you are judged by what you do and not by what you know. Therefore actions is or should be the dominate goal to achieve good dancing.

Give me some time on the other question....great question pruthe..

Dancepro

[elisedance]

But we've not touched on musicality.

Elisa ...

Elise ;)


...wants to know the fastest way to greatness. Isn't musicality a key component of that? It is in my book. Is just being in the right brain enough to develop musicality though? Will it come naturally there? How does one acquire musicality if they aren't born with it?

This is one of those questions with no true answer I believe, but I'd like to hear others' thoughts.


I realize why you raise this (and thank you for reminding us :)). To me effective musicality demands a relinquishing of mental processing and permitting sensory input to generate motor output (movement) without any interference. Thus, musicality must surely be the one aspect of dance where left brain thinking is of least value. Sure, counting steps and beats can help you learn and pace a step and step sequence - but it is of very limited value to help you dance it to music and virtually useless to match your dancing to a particular tune. For me musicallity is the purest example of RB thinking - which I suspect everyone will relate to but for the truly music-blind (and do any such get heavily into dance?). Indeed, its how I started to try to understand RB thinking.

[barrefly]

I was just thinking,....let's say that you go to practice and dance a waltz with your partner. Afterwards, someone comes in and tells you that you just won 10 million dollars in the lottery. You go back on the floor and dance the same waltz. Do you think you would dance with the same emotion as you did previously? Do you dance with the same emotion on bright, sunny days as you do on cold and rainy days? ....when you are in love?
I guess that music could inspire emotion....but one could also utilize emotion despite the music.

[dancepro]

See post #184. Anyone care to comment? We've been talking mostly about getting out of the left brain and how one can do that even when they are learning technique and fundamentals.

But we've not touched on musicality.

Elisa wants to know the fastest way to greatness. Isn't musicality a key component of that? It is in my book. Is just being in the right brain enough to develop musicality though? Will it come naturally there? How does one acquire musicality if they aren't born with it?

This is one of those questions with no true answer I believe, but I'd like to hear others' thoughts.

By the way, this will be a question I hope to have Barry Green address in his workshop.

I have not talked about the musicality as it was ee (a lady) that asked the question. Let me explain.

In the Body school it is believed that you can only have one person being in charge of each job. Basically the idea that too many cooks spoils the food. It was decided a long time ago that it was the man that should be in control of the job of "timing" (musicality, beat value, rhythm and all that had to do with music).

Here I go again....;) good think I am not talking as I would talk your ear off.:)

A great teacher did an experiment in London with many of the top dancers in both standard and latin. He felt and saw a difference between when the man responded to the heard music and when the lady would respond to the heard music. He wanted to see what the difference between the man and the lady was and whether it was in a few cases or across the board. He asked the top couple to help him with the experiment and of course everybody agreed to help. They were placed on different sides of a wall, each with headphones on connected to the same music system. He put a camera up that would have both the man and the lady in the same picture. He then played the music and had both people clap to the music in what they perceived to be the correct timing to the music. After that he studied the outcome and came to the conclusion that male dancers and the female dancers heard the music at a different time. In all of the couples, the men clapped slightly later then then the ladies. He then had them dance a few steps, again the timing of the dancing to the music came out a little different. He basically came to the conclusion that the men hear/d the music or at least respond/ed to the music later then the ladies do/es. He then looked at the dancing more closely, one time having the lady control timing and one time having the man control the timing. When the ladies was in control of timing, it looked rushed and almost off time (it was not off time but looked like it was not far from being off time). He then had the man control the timing and when the mens were in control of the timing, it looked right on time and clam. He therefore made it clear to all his lady students that they were not to hear the music that came out of the speakers. The way the lady should hear the music should be from the man's centers. He was, so to speak her music.

My teacher actually told me to never listen to music. I am a little obsessive compulsive (OTT=over the top) and when down to the a second hand store and sold my music system. I got enough money for the system to get one lesson. To me that was a great investment. I got rid of something I was not going to use and got something that I could use.

Your points about music are very good and important to the man and solo actions in latin (but ee does standard)

Dancepro

[mamboqueen]

I was just thinking,....let's say that you go to practice and dance a waltz with your partner. Afterwards, someone comes in and tells you that you just won 10 million dollars in the lottery. You go back on the floor and dance the same waltz. Do you think you would dance with the same emotion as you did previously? Do you dance with the same emotion on bright, sunny days as you do on cold and rainy days? ....when you are in love?
I guess that music could inspire emotion....but one could also utilize emotion despite the music.

After I wiped up the puddle, probably not! :doh:

Look - I could hear just the *right* song and have such a different experience with a dance. Some songs make me cringe, and I'm never going to express those well. I agree with your last statement entirely.

[elisedance]

I have not talked about the musicality as it was ee (a lady) that asked the question. Let me explain.

In the Body school it is believed that you can only have one person being in charge of each job. Basically the idea that too many cooks spoils the food. It was decided a long time ago that it was the man that should be in control of the job of "timing" (musicality, beat value, rhythm and all that had to do with music).

Here I go again....;) good think I am not talking as I would talk your ear off.:)

A great teacher did an experiment in London with many of the top dancers in both standard and latin. He felt and saw a difference between when the man responded to the heard music and when the lady would respond to the heard music. He wanted to see what the difference between the man and the lady was and whether it was in a few cases or across the board. He asked the top couple to help him with the experiment and of course everybody agreed to help. They were placed on different sides of a wall, each with headphones on connected to the same music system. He put a camera up that would have both the man and the lady in the same picture. He then played the music and had both people clap to the music in what they perceived to be the correct timing to the music. After that he studied the outcome and came to the conclusion that male dancers and the female dancers heard the music at a different time. In all of the couples, the men clapped slightly later then then the ladies. He then had them dance a few steps, again the timing of the dancing to the music came out a little different. He basically came to the conclusion that the men hear/d the music or at least respond/ed to the music later then the ladies do/es. He then looked at the dancing more closely, one time having the lady control timing and one time having the man control the timing. When the ladies was in control of timing, it looked rushed and almost off time (it was not off time but looked like it was not far from being off time). He then had the man control the timing and when the mens were in control of the timing, it looked right on time and clam. He therefore made it clear to all his lady students that they were not to hear the music that came out of the speakers. The way the lady should hear the music should be from the man's centers. He was, so to speak her music.

My teacher actually told me to never listen to music. I am a little obsessive compulsive (OTT=over the top) and when down to the a second hand store and sold my music system. I got enough money for the system to get one lesson. To me that was a great investment. I got rid of something I was not going to use and got something that I could use.

Your points about music are very good and important to the man and solo actions in latin (but ee does standard)

Dancepro

Again you astound me - in particular with the accuracy. My partner is always complaining that I am ahead whenever I get the impuse to take rhytm from the music. I have got used to letting him do it - but I attributed this to the woman, if following, is always a fraction behind anyway.

But rhythm is only a part of the music - surely when the woman does one of her main jobs - that you termed selling, she is expressing the sentiment of the music? Or is that wrong too...
:?:

[mamboqueen]

But rhythm is only a part of the music - surely when the woman does one of her main jobs - that you termed selling, she is expressing the sentiment of the music? Or is that wrong too...
:?:

Well, good question. There is part of my choreography where he is behind me and I have to do some forward walks and then sit back into a pose. Another part where I have to "wiggle" in front of him. I would *love* not to have to hear the music (because I don't hear it 50% of the time as it is), but I need it in certain spots or I'm in trouble! I don't always see his center.

[Warren J. Dew]

In all of the couples, the men clapped slightly later then then the ladies. He then had them dance a few steps, again the timing of the dancing to the music came out a little different. He basically came to the conclusion that the men hear/d the music or at least respond/ed to the music later then the ladies do/es....

When the ladies was in control of timing, it looked rushed and almost off time (it was not off time but looked like it was not far from being off time). He then had the man control the timing and when the mens were in control of the timing, it looked right on time and clam.

Now I have to wonder ... if it had been a lady coach who did the experiment instead of a man, would it have been the ladies who looked on time, and the men who looked behind and almost off time?

[katandmouse]

Again you astound me - in particular with the accuracy. My partner is always complaining that I am ahead whenever I get the impuse to take rhytm from the music. I have got used to letting him do it - but I attributed this to the woman, if following, is always a fraction behind anyway.

But rhythm is only a part of the music - surely when the woman does one of her main jobs - that you termed selling, she is expressing the sentiment of the music? Or is that wrong too...
:?:


And I'm the opposite. My partner is always rushing me. I like to take longer getting to the prep step so we can swing through it, for example. Admittedly, he has other issues like not completing an action before he's off onto the next. In the context of this discussion, the question would be why? Is it that he's hearing the music differently than me and so feels like he has to rush off to get on beat? Or is it only a mechanical problem?

In any case, I'd be careful about applying this across the board.

[dancepro]

Again you astound me - in particular with the accuracy. My partner is always complaining that I am ahead whenever I get the impuse to take rhytm from the music. I have got used to letting him do it - but I attributed this to the woman, if following, is always a fraction behind anyway.

But rhythm is only a part of the music - surely when the woman does one of her main jobs - that you termed selling, she is expressing the sentiment of the music? Or is that wrong too...
:?:

This was not my research. This was done by one of the top teachers in England. His amount of knowledge when it came to music was absolutely amazing. He was the one that introduce phrasing to Richard and Janet Gleave in the 1970's. Richard Gleave then did a lecture on the subject in Blackpool in the late 1980'. Now as far as I know, he only tested the couples that he was teaching. He was teaching about 9 couples of the professional standard semifinal and about 7 couples of the professional latin semifinal. I never heard if he tested any lower ranked couples or any amateurs, so I can't report on that.

We (as ladies) do show music in our bodies, but it is what we get from the man. So, you could say that it is his interpretation of what he heard that we show. We then show our interpretation of what we "heard" from his center. I was often told that I was very musical but I didn't hear music (and still doesn't) so how can that be?. I did "hear" my partners music laud and clear.

Dancepro

[dancepro]

Well, good question. There is part of my choreography where he is behind me and I have to do some forward walks and then sit back into a pose. Another part where I have to "wiggle" in front of him. I would *love* not to have to hear the music (because I don't hear it 50% of the time as it is), but I need it in certain spots or I'm in trouble! I don't always see his center.

At a high level the couple are so in tune with each other that they can feel the other persons energy (and thereby timing) even when they are apart doing solo dancing.

I did however say at the bottom of the music explanation that when you do solo and latin you do have to be aware of the music.

This is my response to kam
[quote]
Your points about music are very good and important to the man and solo actions in latin (but ee does standard)
[quote]

Dancepro

[dancepro]

Now I have to wonder ... if it had been a lady coach who did the experiment instead of a man, would it have been the ladies who looked on time, and the men who looked behind and almost off time?

I have seen both myself and see the same thing as he did. When I show the difference to my students, they see the same thing as he did. Often I don't even say what the difference is when first showing the two different ways of dancing. Both and man and the lady like the look and the feel that the one that represents the timing that the man dances, is the best.
It is really very clear, once you are aware of what you are looking at.

Dancepro

[mamboqueen]

At a high level the couple are so in tune with each other that they can feel the other persons energy (and thereby timing) even when they are apart doing solo dancing.

I did however say at the bottom of the music explanation that when you do solo and latin you do have to be aware of the music.

This is my response to kam
[quote]
Your points about music are very good and important to the man and solo actions in latin (but ee does standard)
[quote]

Dancepro


Completely missed that - sorry! My new glasses are no doing the trick methinks!

[katandmouse]

][/U]
to be honest, for some it actually *is* quite easy...i've known them. i would say they probably have minimal resistance to what they have put into action in their life. a powerful thing, with application to dancing...



:rolleyes:okay, some...all sorts of things are in theory natural, or natural when a bunch of other impediments can be curtailed...but most folks have impediments that they have to let go of in order to percieve how natural it all is

So true! Earlier I agreed this is easy, but only if they have the right brain and right body. This is definitely not me. I may be musical, left and right brained, but my body is like a broken Stratovarius. How am I supposed to make music with that?

Some of us come into dancing later in life with bad posture from sitting at computers all day, physical injuries, or simply poor or even average body mechanics that are real impediments to dancing. What's normal and natural for someone else may not be normal and natural at all for others.

Had an ah-ha moment on this today while speaking to a friend of mine who I felt approached this all too much with her left brain. I finally got where she was coming from. We both go to the same Pilates teacher and quite often when our teacher asks us to do a particular exercise like a "normal" crunch, she has to correct us and tell us we're using the wrong muscle or the right muscle in the wrong way. Because doing it correctly is not normal for us, we need a left brain explanation in order to get it right.

This most definitely can happen in dancing as well. I don't think I need to say more.

[katandmouse]

I have not talked about the musicality as it was ee (a lady) that asked the question. Let me explain.

In the Body school it is believed that you can only have one person being in charge of each job. Basically the idea that too many cooks spoils the food. It was decided a long time ago that it was the man that should be in control of the job of "timing" (musicality, beat value, rhythm and all that had to do with music).
Dancepro

I actually learned this from someone I think you know in a private lesson. She told me she had to put earplugs in her female student's ears when she competed at Blackpool to keep her from dancing to her own rhythm.

And now we've hit upon a "Truth" I don't like. This is hard for me because I'm so musical. My teacher told me I'd never find an amateur with the musicality I crave. I suspect that may be true, age and level being the determining factors. But I've always felt that if a leader could provide a well-tuned instrument, meaning he had good technique, I could make my own music on top of that. Now I'm not so sure that would be enough. For me, musicality is finding the music and the magic in between the beats. I want to feel that in my partner. And I'm afraid, earplugs won't work either. Even if there is no music, I want to make music in my body.

Dancepro, what do you do as a lady if you are musical and your partner is not? Even more than that, what do you do if you crave musicality when you dance like it's your dying breath?

Please don't tell me I need to take up another form of dancing.

[BlueBambue]

When the ladies was in control of timing, it looked rushed and almost off time (it was not off time but looked like it was not far from being off time). He then had the man control the timing and when the mens were in control of the timing, it looked right on time and clam.

I wonder how much of this difference is trained and how much is inate differences between men and women. My uneducated guess is that a lot of the difference in timing comes from training.

[fascination]

I think one of my personal misfortunes is that I am trainded as a cantor, and as such, it is often important to come in early so that everyone else will sing...unfortunately, I tend to dance like that...

[singndance]

I think one of my personal misfortunes is that I am trainded as a cantor, and as such, it is often important to come in early so that everyone else will sing...unfortunately, I tend to dance like that...

Yes, I am doing a lot of choral singing right now, and our director is very tight with his rhythm so there is no tolerance for laggards. This has definitely transferred to my dancing. I nearly died when my dance instructor told me I wasn't musical - it felt like a bullet through my heart! I was moving too fast thinking I had to be exactly in the right position right on the beat. When I let go and followed him things improved by leaps and bounds. Still not where I want to be with this - we spent a lot of time on it during open movements in waltz yesterday -- but improving.

[fascination]

yep...I play 3 instruments and sing so I'd like to think I can hear the beat...but the over-responsibility element really becomes and issue...probably my biggest issue...add some adrenalin and...well...it ain't pretty

[dancepro]

I actually learned this from someone I think you know in a private lesson. She told me she had to put earplugs in her female student's ears when she competed at Blackpool to keep her from dancing to her own rhythm.

Yes, I hear that from her student and the parents of the student. It is a dramatic approach but I am sure the point came across very effectively. The student did have a very good result whether it being the earplugs or not.


And now we've hit upon a "Truth" I don't like. This is hard for me because I'm so musical. My teacher told me I'd never find an amateur with the musicality I crave. I suspect that may be true, age and level being the determining factors. But I've always felt that if a leader could provide a well-tuned instrument, meaning he had good technique, I could make my own music on top of that. Now I'm not so sure that would be enough. For me, musicality is finding the music and the magic in between the beats. I want to feel that in my partner. And I'm afraid, earplugs won't work either. Even if there is no music, I want to make music in my body.


I know there are many that don't like this "truth", but there is things you will have to give up (a price to pay) if you want to dance well. When I first started learning standard it was hard for me to stop listening. I did latin before and my partner and did a lot of solo work. I had gotten used to taking care of my own timing. Because it was so difficult for me to stop listening the best thing I could do was to sell my music system. I was a symbolic act as well as a practical act. It was a way of telling my mind that my ears were cut off and the only way to experience music was to be connected to my partner.


Dancepro, what do you do as a lady if you are musical and your partner is not?


Find another partner..... no joking aside.
I have hear from many different sources that musicality is a learned skill. Will it take time to learn? Yes, it will take time and persistence to get the music within. There is a lot of exercises that can be used to train basic musicality. My ex-partner has trained students to get great music. Did it take work, absolutely yes. There were many time when I would see him drill students to do the same again and again to get the music to be expressed. It will take homework from the mans side and patience from the lady's side to get great musicality. You could of course also do pro/am and find a teacher that you think has great music. I think your teacher has great music kam.


Even more than that, what do you do if you crave musicality when you dance like it's your dying breath?


I have to say where there is a will there is a way. When I was first told to not listen it was really hard for me. I didn't have the skill to connect to my partner music and therefor felt I was put in a emotional prison. I was not only in a emotional prison but now also in an physical prison(the standard hold (frame)). I hated standard with a passion. I was really beginning to regret ever having started dancing standard. I couldn't understand how anybody could like standard at all. Every week I would go out with my friends to dance clubs and get my "fix" of being musical and free. I did that for about 3 month until I started getting connected and seeing freedom in standard. That was how I survived the first months of not being able to express myself. I don't really have a solution for you, sorry. You will have to find actions that will substitute and/or keeps you busy so that you get the emotional outlet some other way.

I wish, I had all the answers to all the questions ever asked. I am sorry, I don't have an answer to you question. You will have to look within and find your own answer.


Please don't tell me I need to take up another form of dancing.


You might want to use other dance forms as an outlet, but no you don't have to.

Hey, I was brought up with music being a big part of my life and I learned to have my partner be my music. I am not saying this to impress you but to impress upon you that it is possible to learn.

Dancepro

[GJB]

Dancepro, what do you do as a lady if you are musical and your partner is not? Even more than that, what do you do if you crave musicality when you dance like it's your dying breath?

Please don't tell me I need to take up another form of dancing.

Well, this isn't what you want to hear but have you tried WCS? Some of the social dancers are pretty good at musical interpretation. And, since you are not in a closed hold you can sometimes be musical even if the lead you are dancing with is not. I am not suggesting you give up Standard, just suggesting something you might want to add if you don't dance it already. There are links to some good examples on video here http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=16033.

[katandmouse]

Well, this isn't what you want to hear but have you tried WCS? Some of the social dancers are pretty good at musical interpretation. And, since you are not in a closed hold you can sometimes be musical even if the lead you are dancing with is not. I am not suggesting you give up Standard, just suggesting something you might want to add if you don't dance it already. There are links to some good examples on video here http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=16033.

Funny. That is my other passion. And as a matter of fact, I tell my friends (and partner), "If you want to learn to be expressive, take up WCS."

So I totally agree with you! Just wish I could get the same musical expression in ballroom. But to be honest, before that, I still have many more skills that I need to hone. My teacher made me painfully aware of that today.

[katandmouse]

I know there are many that don't like this "truth", but there is things you will have to give up (a price to pay) if you want to dance well. When I first started learning standard it was hard for me to stop listening.

Dancepro

I actually do that well. The earplug story helped. But I also had a couple of teachers burn that into my brain. In fact, I learned that so well that on quite a few occasions in the past when I'd share a lesson with a practice partner and he was counseled for not being on time, I wasn't even aware of it! I noticed it when we started, but as soon as we started moving, I became unaware.

I was always aware of the fact that we weren't musical, however.

[samina]

So true! Earlier I agreed this is easy, but only if they have the right brain and right body. This is definitely not me. I may be musical, left and right brained, but my body is like a broken Stratovarius. How am I supposed to make music with that?

Some of us come into dancing later in life with bad posture from sitting at computers all day, physical injuries, or simply poor or even average body mechanics that are real impediments to dancing. What's normal and natural for someone else may not be normal and natural at all for others.

Had an ah-ha moment on this today while speaking to a friend of mine who I felt approached this all too much with her left brain. I finally got where she was coming from. We both go to the same Pilates teacher and quite often when our teacher asks us to do a particular exercise like a "normal" crunch, she has to correct us and tell us we're using the wrong muscle or the right muscle in the wrong way. Because doing it correctly is not normal for us, we need a left brain explanation in order to get it right.

This most definitely can happen in dancing as well. I don't think I need to say more.
I do understand these sentiments. I'm a late-starter as well, and have navigated a number of physical challenges which have required correction in my body in order to do what is needed.

What has worked for me so far, and continues to bring improvement, is to consciously direct my subconscious to deliver what I want in my body...I give it the images, the ideas, the end result, and to the extent I am clear and expecting a response, I'm led to the information, means, assistance, methods...whatever is needed to make the shift. In addition, you can talk directly to your body...to your bones, your cells, your muscles, your nervous system. Tell it what you want...send pictures, express an expectation that it conform to what you want.

This is powerful stuff, if you have an understanding that supports such a process. Your body and its abilities will begin to change... You can't "will" it to do so, but there is a power within your body & mind which will respond and take you in the direction of what you want.

Thank goodness for that! :)

[katandmouse]

Find another partner..... no joking aside.
I have hear from many different sources that musicality is a learned skill. Will it take time to learn? Yes, it will take time and persistence to get the music within. There is a lot of exercises that can be used to train basic musicality. My ex-partner has trained students to get great music. Did it take work, absolutely yes. There were many time when I would see him drill students to do the same again and again to get the music to be expressed. It will take homework from the mans side and patience from the lady's side to get great musicality. You could of course also do pro/am and find a teacher that you think has great music. I think your teacher has great music kam.

Dancepro

I actually decided to take a break from amateur partnership for awhile today, but this is not why. In fact, I would not give him up for this reason because of everything else that is so wonderful about him. Besides, with a little training, I think he can acquire musicality. Instead, I have my own issues that need correcting and I think it's best I work on these alone for awhile so I can give them the undivided attention they need.

As for my teacher having great music, YES HE DOES!! But, alas, great teachers don't come cheap and until my new businesses start rolling in the dough for me, I'm afraid the most I can hope for with him are a few laps around the floor each week.

Perhaps sometime you can share how your ex-partner taught musicality.

[waltzgirl]

I remember quite some time ago complaining here on df that I had trained myself not to listen to the music from taking lessons in a busy ballroom, where very often I'd be working on one dance while another dance was being played on the music system. Guess that turned out to be a good thing!

By default, I think I have developed from the beginning some ability to follow my lead's music--both from the ballroom situation and from the fact that, at the beginning, I was really bad at hearing the beat. It was easier for me to follow my lead's timing than to hear the beat myself!

There's a local lead who is very good at expressing the music and I love following his interpretations. When dancing with him, I can listen to the music, while feeling and responding to his interpretation. The combination is wonderful!

[katandmouse]

I do understand these sentiments. I'm a late-starter as well, and have navigated a number of physical challenges which have required correction in my body in order to do what is needed.

What has worked for me so far, and continues to bring improvement, is to consciously direct my subconscious to deliver what I want in my body...I give it the images, the ideas, the end result, and to the extent I am clear and expecting a response, I'm led to the information, means, assistance, methods...whatever is needed to make the shift. In addition, you can talk directly to your body...to your bones, your cells, your muscles, your nervous system. Tell it what you want...send pictures, express an expectation that it conform to what you want.

This is powerful stuff, if you have an understanding that supports such a process. Your body and its abilities will begin to change... You can't "will" it to do so, but there is a power within your body & mind which will respond and take you in the direction of what you want.

Thank goodness for that! :)

Yes, thank goodness. And thank you for these timely reminders. I needed this today.

[Angel HI]

Oh how I wish my schedule were different, :( and I could be a more timely part of this thread. It is one of the best to hit the DF (probably a bias b/c it is all about what I [dancepro and a very few others] have been about for decades). Re .....
Could you expand further on the differences between inside-out and outside-in. Maybe an example or two for lead and follow. My initial feeling was that inside-out would be harder to learn, but you say otherwise.Thanks.
I know that she said that she would expound later, and we can wait for her examples. But the ground roots simplicity of it is that dancing from the outside-in is taking steps and concepts and teaching one to adopt/adapt to those steps/concepts in order to form a movement. Teaching from the inside-out is taking a natural movement and developing that into the desired or required result (placing the weight onto the balls of the feet, and going slowly 'up' a flight of stairs - settling before each one, for example...a natural innate movement that will result in expert latin movement [cuban motion] when developed from within and put to music).

Incidentally, the musicality experiment she mentioned in http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=649082&postcount=201 is a good one, and most accurate. The issue is that most people think that musicality has to do with music. It does not. Musicality has to do with the mental, emotional, and physical interpretation and reaction to the music. Musicality is not the rhythm, beats, and syncopations of the music, rather it is the mental, emotional, and physical interpretation and reaction of the music that comes out in the movement that is created. This is why musicality can nto be taught. It is unique to the individual. When I do musicality classes, it is to teach dancers how to discover and express the musicality that "they" feel innately.

True, also, that in partnership dance, the man's musicality comes from the music, and the lady's musicality comes from the man. He is listening to the music...she is listening to him (this is not such a strange concept when one thinks of it as simply another aspect of "follow").

[Angel HI]

This is definitely not me. I may be musical, left and right brained, but my body is like a broken Stratovarius. How am I supposed to make music with that?

Some of us come into dancing later in life with bad posture from sitting at computers all day, physical injuries, or simply poor or even average body mechanics that are real impediments to dancing. What's normal and natural for someone else may not be normal and natural at all for others.
I live for students like you. You are the perfect candidate for the method of teaching/learning that dancepro, I, and some others are talking about. When dancers come with all types of differences, how silly is it to try to teach them from the outside-in (a mandated set of "do it like this"s). Dance 'must' come from the inside-out...we must take the differences of each student, and develop them into a norm or standard...not the other way around. Your Stradavarius isn't broken...it's just out of tune.

[elisedance]

KaM and I both have very strong inate musicality. Is this then a handicap for the woman - or does it mean that we will be more able to read the leads musicality?

Or maybe we should be leading!

[elisedance]

One more AHI: with the 'dance for the moment' (if you excuse the term) following method can you really lead/follow a side of synchopated steps in QS - scatter chasses and the like? I have been told that these simply have to be learned by both partners to pull them off (but would be pleased to hear it contradicted ;)).

[barrefly]

KaM and I both have very strong inate musicality. Is this then a handicap for the woman - or does it mean that we will be more able to read the leads musicality?

Or maybe we should be leading!

elisedance, Say you are a violinist in an orchestra. Would the music of the orchestra dictate the way in which you played, or simply your years of training and the "silent" conductor. I think this is what Angel Hi, and Dancepro are getting at. If you were playing your violin,...and the orchestra would suddenly disappear....leaving just you and the conductor....would the way in wich you played suddenly change? It shouldn't. When you decide you want to be a composer,...then, you would want to hear the music playing...until then...."your" instrument should be all you are concerned with, and the conductor, as your lead.
...too many dancers think themselves "composers".

[katandmouse]

I live for students like you. You are the perfect candidate for the method of teaching/learning that dancepro, I, and some others are talking about. When dancers come with all types of differences, how silly is it to try to teach them from the outside-in (a mandated set of "do it like this"s). Dance 'must' come from the inside-out...we must take the differences of each student, and develop them into a norm or standard...not the other way around. Your Stradavarius isn't broken...it's just out of tune.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[barrefly]

Dancepro, I think that the best instructors utilize the "inside-out" method. This is also the way in which I raise/d my children. (my little actress, and my dancer). What was unexpected is that, the dancer....though she learned all her life, via the "inside-out" method...has a natural tendency to teach via the outside-in method to her little ballet and salsa students. I am thinking that since she has trained all her life, she never learned to question/analyze her instructors....and therefore, never got a feel for their methods. I have heard it said that the best dancers don't always make the best teachers. Perhaps the best students do not always make the best instructors as well?

[katandmouse]

Found some interesting quotes in "Drawing on the Artist Within" by Betty Edwards who also wrote "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain."

"In my opinion, the optimal situation in problem-solving is to be able to use a clean-minded approach to a problem, even though your mind is stuffed with information. The more information I have about the problem and previous attempts to solve it, the better I do...However, this abundant information can often prevent you from seeing very elegant solutions." James L. Adams

"Learned conventions can be window-less fortresses which exclude viewing the world in new ways." J. J. Gordon

"The reason for maintaining an open mind, of course, is so that no information derived from seeing what is "out there" will be overlooked, rejected, or revised because of prematurely drawn conclusions." Adams

This is exactly what I've been trying to describe as my right-brain dancing. It's as if my left brain, full of information, presents that information to the right side and says, 'Here, do something with this." My right brain says the same to my body. My body explores and says, "You mean this?" My right side says, "Not quite. Try again."

My right brain gives my body the freedom of exploration, of letting it be, and letting it happen no matter how the left brain will try to lock me into some preconceived notion. That is the "open mind" and "open body."

Luca, I think it's in his Bible, points out how stupid words (and information as words) are. He said he can show you what an apple is and describe it to you, If he were to tell you it was tart, your preconceived ideas of what tart is would color the way you interpreted that information and it may not at all be what Luca is intending to convey. Tart to Luca might be something that makes your face shrivel up. Tart to you might just be pleasantly spicy. So until you actually taste the apple, you'll never really know what it tastes like and how tart it really is.

The left brain with its learned and preconceived ideas prevents us sometimes from really tasting the apple.

[barrefly]

Thankyou katandmouse,
You made me realize that I have been developing my daughter's left brain so long,...that it dominated her right brain.

[pruthe]

Regarding inside-out vs outside-in concepts, I would suggest waiting until Dancepro responds. It's possible she is meaning something else for her concepts. Not to demean any previous discussion though. Maybe that's what she was thinking too.

[katandmouse]

The issue is that most people think that musicality has to do with music. It does not. Musicality has to do with the mental, emotional, and physical interpretation and reaction to the music. Musicality is not the rhythm, beats, and syncopations of the music, rather it is the mental, emotional, and physical interpretation and reaction of the music that comes out in the movement that is created. This is why musicality can nto be taught. It is unique to the individual. When I do musicality classes, it is to teach dancers how to discover and express the musicality that "they" feel innately.

I LOVE this!

There is a video at youtube with Katusha and Arunas. The music was not synched well at all. At first I didn't notice, (and it's interesting to me why I did not - right brain?), but when I studied it, it was so obvious to me it made my skin crawl (left brain). http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ltbVNSrM_nM

I happened to make a comment to a friend about how wonderful Arunas's musicality is in that video, and he replied back (before he understood about the audio problem), "He's off beat. How can I can say he has good musicality?" I replied back that I can SEE the musicality. I don't even need sound.

This fits with what you are describing. Thank you for that explanation!

And I hate to say it but I tend to agree with you that it can't be taught, at least from the outside. I've had people beg me to teach them to play piano with expression and I tried. The best I could do was point them to the dynamics that were written in the music, and then they had a semblance of musicality. But real musicality is something that is developed away from your instrument, whether it be your body or your musical instrument. It is a passion within that pervades your very being.

I've noticed with myself that I speak with passion. In fact, I tell me people around me to stand back because my arms will likely strike them if they are within range. I would venture a guess that musical people are also probably outwardly expressive like that in the same or different ways. So I've often wanted to experiment with dancers by putting them in an acting class where they are given the freedom to let it out. I used to work with a disturbed child who was very withdrawn. He hardly spoke, and when he did, it was in anger, violent anger. When we covered him with a blanket, and I mean completely covered head to toe, he became a different child. He softened up and we were able to reach his heart. In an acting class, you are given a different persona that covers the real you, so to speak, which then gives you the freedom to let loose.

Everyone has feelings. Some lock them up. It's finding the key to the door that is the answer.

[barrefly]

I LOVE this!

. ..But real musicality is something that is developed away from your instrument, whether it be your body or your musical instrument. It is a passion within that pervades your very being.

....I think that musicality is "body and soul". They work in harmony. (Body, being the instrument,...soul being the passion/artistry/expression.)
-Desolate is the man, who has no plan,...but there is no point of view, if there is no "you".-

[elisedance]

Putting it into effect #2

Today I had a practise session with DP. We've decided to try a pre-champ comp (which is one step up from Gold syllabus) and dear DP has been scouring his DVD collection for material (most of which is probably over 15 yrs old). So today we spent nearly 2 hrs going over these steps and step sequences. And today I decided to approach these with an entirely RB approach. Fortunately DP had gone over the steps and seemed to have some idea what to do. Normally I would have gone over each step in detail to see where my foot goes, my rise and fall is etc etc. Not today. I let him lead and I just focused on sensing him and on following/dancing (I add the latter since sometimes its more than following its being actively involved).

Know what? It was truly amazing - we did over 6 step sets - much of which I had never see before - and within 2-3 tries I could do all of them. Not only that , I was dancing them in position and with expression. To make matters more interesting we had to do them while another teacher was using the stero playing tango - and yet it made no difference. I was totally tuned into DPs lead.

I got two things from this - first more evidence that at least after having years of basic training I can trust my following skills. The other is actually more profound - and that is that DP must be a way better leader than I think I have ever given him credit for.

On both counts I'm agog!

[katandmouse]

Yay! Congrats Elise!

[Angel HI]

KaM and I both have very strong inate musicality. Is this then a handicap for the woman - or does it mean that we will be more able to read the leads musicality?
Yes. ;) (note the dual meaning of handicap)
...can you really lead/follow a side of synchopated steps in QS - scatter chasses and the like? I have been told that these simply have to be learned by both partners to pull them off ...
Yes, again, on both notes. acknowledging that some "patterns" in BR must be learned, 99% of them "may" be led/followed. Of course, we wish to avoid splitting hairs...the technique needs to be learned well, and executed as such regardless of hwo well the movement is led/followed.
I LOVE this!

...I replied back that I can SEE the musicality. I don't even need sound. This fits with what you are describing. Thank you for that explanation!
And, I love this. you are most welcomed.
I've had people beg me to teach them to play piano .... quote]
Hmm. On a sidebar, maybe you can help me. I have this beautiful instrument (a grand) that literally comes to life and runs across the room when I sit down to play. :confused:

[quote=elisedance;649539]Putting it into effect #2. On both counts I'm agog!
Bravo!

[elisedance]

OK so I'm going to play devil's advocate here since I think there is an underlying disagreement on this thread.

No doubt its content has radiacally changed how I approach dance. However, I think it could do so because of my backgroud.

Lets suppose there are three kinds of potential dancer out there. The strongly Left brained, the strongly Right brained (the Ls and Rs) and (I assume bulk) of L/Rs. I suppose that the Ls and the Rs will learn dance by their natural inclination and tyring to force one to do the other might be possible but is more likely to result in rebellion.

How should the L/Rs approach it? Before this thread the predominant thinking on DF is that we should learn steps with diligence and fix our motion by analysis and application - thus a L approach (there has always been a R 'cry in the wilnderness' as it were but there has been a strong resistance to this - mostly I think because its only really possible to convey L method in a written medium). This thread has served to even the score - to emphasize the importance of the R approach.

I am making a shift from L to R. However, I suspect I can do this because I have had ~7 years of mostly technical training - I am now learning to let my instincts control my dance but I believe I can only do so because I already have the mechanics in place[/B]. Thus, the questions I have are:
1. How much technical training do we need to have 'under the belt' before we can/should R dance? Perhaps syllabus is really a place to get L prior to embarking on 'real dancing'? And related to this:
2. Should training be serial (learn the mechanics first and then add R). Or paralell: Learn L and R together. Or maybe there are advocates for only learning R. My feeling is that it should be both: start with L to get the mechanics and then start adding R until it is almost all the latter.

And thats probably long enough ;)

Oh, I would love to hear dancepro's training history. Did you always do R dancing or was this something you discovered later in your career?

[QPO]

I am sure he would love to hear it :-) as they often get maligned for not leading properly

And give yourself a pat on the back for following. We don't get credit for that sometimes.

Putting it into effect #2

I got two things from this - first more evidence that at least after having years of basic training I can trust my following skills. The other is actually more profound - and that is that DP must be a way better leader than I think I have ever given him credit for.

On both counts I'm agog!

[dancepro]

Could you expand further on the differences between inside-out and outside-in. Maybe an example or two for lead and follow. My initial feeling was that inside-out would be harder to learn, but you say otherwise.

Thanks.

Boy I am gone for a couple of days to do a seminar and you guys just takes off. I am not sure this is relevant any more but I am going to answer it anyway.

It is a little difficult to explain simple and with not visual explanation. I have been thinking of it and this is how I can best explain it. It is like the difference between an explosion and an implosion.
When you are working from the outside-in, you start with the extremities and work your way in to-wards the center. So start by working on your feet, arms and hands and then little by little you get to the center (core).
It is said that this way of learning gives a fast result to begin with but then the result gets stagnated for a while, because the couple is trying to find the center.
when you are working from the inside-out, you start with the center and work your way out to the extremities. You find all the centers and understand how they work and how they relate to one another. The movement from the center are then little by little moved out and becomes visible in the extremities. It is said that this way of learning has a slow continuous upward learning curve with very few if any stagnate pauses.

I hope this explains it a little. You will see the difference in approach more clearly in latin then in standard. Standard arms and hands use are more subtle and it is therefore more difficult to spot if somebody is working from the inside-out or from the outside-in.

Dancepro

[dancepro]

I wonder how much of this difference is trained and how much is inate differences between men and women. My uneducated guess is that a lot of the difference in timing comes from training.

That is difficult to say as it was only top dancers that was tested.

Dancepro

[dancepro]

Incidentally, the musicality experiment she mentioned in http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=649082&postcount=201 is a good one, and most accurate. The issue is that most people think that musicality has to do with music. It does not. Musicality has to do with the mental, emotional, and physical interpretation and reaction to the music. Musicality is not the rhythm, beats, and syncopations of the music, rather it is the mental, emotional, and physical interpretation and reaction of the music that comes out in the movement that is created. This is why musicality can nto be taught. It is unique to the individual. When I do musicality classes, it is to teach dancers how to discover and express the musicality that "they" feel innately.

True, also, that in partnership dance, the man's musicality comes from the music, and the lady's musicality comes from the man. He is listening to the music...she is listening to him (this is not such a strange concept when one thinks of it as simply another aspect of "follow").

Totally agree:)

Dancepro

[dancepro]

Dancepro, I think that the best instructors utilize the "inside-out" method. This is also the way in which I raise/d my children. (my little actress, and my dancer). What was unexpected is that, the dancer....though she learned all her life, via the "inside-out" method...has a natural tendency to teach via the outside-in method to her little ballet and salsa students. I am thinking that since she has trained all her life, she never learned to question/analyze her instructors....and therefore, never got a feel for their methods. I have heard it said that the best dancers don't always make the best teachers. Perhaps the best students do not always make the best instructors as well?

I worked with a professional rhythm couple for about 6 years. When they first came to me they had only ever worked on the outside-in method. They asked to have lessons from me. After one lesson it was clear to me that they didn't understand what I was talking about. I asked, to go and find another teacher that they believed in. They then worked with one of the best latin lady dancers in the world on with the outside-in method. She finally got them to a point of being so close to the center, that they felt ready to take lessons with me again. This time they understood and the improvement took off. They were now getting the whole picture. We (the inside-out and the outside-in teachers) ultimate want the same end result, but how we go about creating it, is very different. Mind you, this was a very good couple and their mind was open enough to understand there are two sides to every story.

Do this two different ways still present today? Yes, absolutely and there are world class coaches in both ways of working.

Dancepro

[dancepro]

Putting it into effect #2

Today I had a practise session with DP. We've decided to try a pre-champ comp (which is one step up from Gold syllabus) and dear DP has been scouring his DVD collection for material (most of which is probably over 15 yrs old). So today we spent nearly 2 hrs going over these steps and step sequences. And today I decided to approach these with an entirely RB approach. Fortunately DP had gone over the steps and seemed to have some idea what to do. Normally I would have gone over each step in detail to see where my foot goes, my rise and fall is etc etc. Not today. I let him lead and I just focused on sensing him and on following/dancing (I add the latter since sometimes its more than following its being actively involved).

Know what? It was truly amazing - we did over 6 step sets - much of which I had never see before - and within 2-3 tries I could do all of them. Not only that , I was dancing them in position and with expression. To make matters more interesting we had to do them while another teacher was using the stero playing tango - and yet it made no difference. I was totally tuned into DPs lead.

I got two things from this - first more evidence that at least after having years of basic training I can trust my following skills. The other is actually more profound - and that is that DP must be a way better leader than I think I have ever given him credit for.

On both counts I'm agog!

Well done;):). Keep it up!!!

Dancepro

[dancepro]

OK so I'm going to play devil's advocate here since I think there is an underlying disagreement on this thread.

No doubt its content has radiacally changed how I approach dance. However, I think it could do so because of my backgroud.

Lets suppose there are three kinds of potential dancer out there. The strongly Left brained, the strongly Right brained (the Ls and Rs) and (I assume bulk) of L/Rs. I suppose that the Ls and the Rs will learn dance by their natural inclination and tyring to force one to do the other might be possible but is more likely to result in rebellion.

How should the L/Rs approach it? Before this thread the predominant thinking on DF is that we should learn steps with diligence and fix our motion by analysis and application - thus a L approach (there has always been a R 'cry in the wilnderness' as it were but there has been a strong resistance to this - mostly I think because its only really possible to convey L method in a written medium). This thread has served to even the score - to emphasize the importance of the R approach.

I am making a shift from L to R. However, I suspect I can do this because I have had ~7 years of mostly technical training - I am now learning to let my instincts control my dance but I believe I can only do so because I already have the mechanics in place[/b]. Thus, the questions I have are:
1. How much technical training do we need to have 'under the belt' before we can/should R dance? Perhaps syllabus is really a place to get L prior to embarking on 'real dancing'? And related to this:
2. Should training be serial (learn the mechanics first and then add R). Or paralell: Learn L and R together. Or maybe there are advocates for only learning R. My feeling is that it should be both: start with L to get the mechanics and then start adding R until it is almost all the latter.

And thats probably long enough ;)

Oh, I would love to hear dancepro's training history. Did you always do R dancing or was this something you discovered later in your career?

Over the years I have trained many couples of all three possibilities. I have found the the dancers that learn as a RB'ers do get it faster then the LB'ers does. Most of the kids that I traine/d, learn/ed as RB'ers. I guess that is why when we learn as kids it sticks easier. I have found that the LB'ers that I get, tend to be engineers or doctors. They want to know every detail that there is to know before they "think" they can do it. I must say that many of the good dancers, that I have had the pleasure to work with over the year, did have technical knowledge, but I don't think as much as people would think. In the Body school there are 20 basic rules and many of the couples that I have taught to dance at a high level don't even know all 20 rules. I think the most that any of the couple that I taught, that made finals knew, was about 140 rule out of more then 8000 rules.

It is not about knowing when you compete, it is about showing.
I know I keep repeating myself on this subject.

Now, I don't remember the story exactly but it basically was about the subject of knowing. Henry Ford was sued for the rights of an invention for an engine. He actually didn't do it himself but he had hired the people that did it. To wards the end of the trial Mr. Ford basically said that he didn't know how to invent an engine but all he had to do was to ask one of his employees for the knowledge.
Albert Einstein didn't know his own telephone number. When asked why, he basically said that it would be a waste of energy to put information in his head that he could just as easily look up.

You just need to know enough and not more than is necessary to preform the task.

I have often found, that once the kids that I have trained turned professional, I will have to introduce the LB, as they are starting to teach.
Now, I am not saying this is the only way of learning. I have just found that the people that get thrown out in the deep end of the pool, learn to swim. Once they understand the basic skill of propelling the body thru the water I will help them get more efficient by including technical skills.

As for myself, I have always learned from the RB. I didn't even know there was another way to learn, until I retired. Everybody around me learned by the RB so I never saw the other way of learning while competing. When I moved to the US I had a hard time getting adults to learn from the RB, only the kids that I trained were willing to stay RB'ed. I had to get very organized with the information that was teaching to make the engineers and the doctors accept the principles that I was teaching.

Dancepro

[waltzguy]

No wonder I learn so slowly, I'm a technical/analytical type at work. I'm data-driven, fact-driven. Need to start a paradigm shift in dancing.

[elisedance]

Same story WG - and I'm trying to do it. The biggest challenge is the sense of panic when you let go - but it really does work.

However, as a natural (or practised) LBer I think I will always have to have a ballance.

[katandmouse]

I am making a shift from L to R. However, I suspect I can do this because I have had ~7 years of mostly technical training - I am now learning to let my instincts control my dance but I believe I can only do so because I already have the mechanics in place[/b]. Thus, the questions I have are:
1. How much technical training do we need to have 'under the belt' before we can/should R dance? Perhaps syllabus is really a place to get L prior to embarking on 'real dancing'? And related to this:
2. Should training be serial (learn the mechanics first and then add R). Or paralell: Learn L and R together. Or maybe there are advocates for only learning R. My feeling is that it should be both: start with L to get the mechanics and then start adding R until it is almost all the latter.


Great questions and will surely keep this fantastic discussion for awhile.

I'm not sure there is a black and white answer to these which I think you indicate as well. But it would sure be interesting if someone can actually research this in a controlled study. I've been toying with the idea of doing just that. The answer I think is, "Depends on the individual."

I agree with Dancepro in that children learn with the right brain. Their brains are not developed enough to handle all the info we can throw at them, plus they don't have the attention span to listen to it all. They just want to move! We adults would do well to follow their example. However, they also have fresh bodies that have not been molded into the shape of office chairs, to cite one example. Neither do they have faulty biomechanical habits like we do from doing repetitive movements 40 hours a week. Because our muscles and bones may not respond as naturally as they should, I do believe most of us need more instruction. How much, I guess, is the question. And I would say, "Not much."

In a WCS class recently, the teacher was attempting to teach the class a very complex pattern that required very good connection. He had a very left-brain approach to teaching it. I was taking it as a leader and when the followers rotated I got a woman who was clearly overwhelmed. Her first comment was, "I'm ready to go home. This is too much." (Her left brain was full of too much information.) I simplified it for her. I told her that her goal was essentially two things and two things only - "go where I put her and reconnect with me." I told her to forget everything else. She mastered the move with me in only ONE try! Interestingly, the same advice works for leaders. My goal was two things only - get her to go there and then reconnect with her so I can get her to go somewhere else. Why this works is because I gave her something to do that was easy and natural - 1) walk and 2) connect (I demonstrated what this feels like and then instructed her to keep walking into position until she felt that). She was the best lady in a class that included many that were at a much higher level. She is in her fifties and I'd say probably advanced beginning level.

I started off the discussion about right brain learning by telling you about my first experience learning swing. That teacher spent 5 minutes, if that, explaining what swing it. The rest was all right brain awareness. That is all I needed. So from my experience, I would say, "A little bit of information goes a long way."

My current teacher is teaching a young male all with the use of the right brain. That student has no mental understanding of what the "standing leg" is or what it does, but he does it perfectly. He learned by demonstration and then feeling it in his own body with feedback from the instructor. And you should see him dance! It's unbelievable. The judges, apparently, are equally impressed. He skipped syllabus competition and is competing in Open.

But again, it's individual. Not everyone will or can have the same result. Left brain people I've found are VERY RESISTANT to switching to the right. My partner is one of those people. Without the ability to switch to right brain thinking he is as confused there as the woman in the WCS class was in her left. Ideally, you work with students in a way that turns on that side of the brain. Dancepro had some suggestions for doing so. Barry Green in our "Inner Game" workshop will probably have more.

[pruthe]

Boy I am gone for a couple of days to do a seminar and you guys just takes off. I am not sure this is relevant any more but I am going to answer it anyway.

It is a little difficult to explain simple and with not visual explanation. I have been thinking of it and this is how I can best explain it. It is like the difference between an explosion and an implosion.
When you are working from the outside-in, you start with the extremities and work your way in to-wards the center. So start by working on your feet, arms and hands and then little by little you get to the center (core).
It is said that this way of learning gives a fast result to begin with but then the result gets stagnated for a while, because the couple is trying to find the center.
when you are working from the inside-out, you start with the center and work your way out to the extremities. You find all the centers and understand how they work and how they relate to one another. The movement from the center are then little by little moved out and becomes visible in the extremities. It is said that this way of learning has a slow continuous upward learning curve with very few if any stagnate pauses.

I hope this explains it a little. You will see the difference in approach more clearly in latin then in standard. Standard arms and hands use are more subtle and it is therefore more difficult to spot if somebody is working from the inside-out or from the outside-in.

Dancepro

Thanks for that explanation. I really like the explosion/implosion analogy. One other question. For standard dancing, does the outside-in have primary connection and leading through hands/arms, whereas inside-out have primary connection and lead via center areas? If so, for outside-in it seems you could loose your centers connection and still lead since have arms/hand connection, but for inside-out you would never want to loose your center areas connection. Trying to understand how this works.