A good repertoire

[youngsta]

Leads in your opinion what's a sufficient number of moves to have in your dance repertoire?

[Chris Stratton]

That depends... are we talking short dances like a ballroom comp, normal album tracks of 3 or so minutes, or those 10 minute club mix marathons of boredom that drove me to give up on salsa entirely?

I guess what I mean is that perhaps the question should be answered in terms of how many times it's okay to repeate something over the course of a single "dance" with someone.

[SalsaGeek]

I would say about 30. I break them down to 10 easy, 15 int., 5 advance. That's my Salsa repertoire.

[Sagitta]

Depends on what you consider a move. Many variations of left and right hand turns for example for leaders and followers, with one hand or two. Multiple turns and alternating turns. Then so many variations on the crossbody lead....simple, one-handed, cross-handed (e.g. right-right), follows hand behind back or neck, leader veils followers hand over his head on first half of cross-body, then with various turns incorporated. Incorporoate veils, hair combs...into the moves...Right here I would say you have plenty -- easily over 30 moves.

[SalsaGeek]

Yeah that's right. Sagitta made a good point. I didn't really think about different variations of the same move.

[youngsta]

The question is how many do you think is enough? :lol:

[SalsaGeek]

You never can have enough. :twisted:

The question is how many do you think is enough? :lol:

[Sagitta]

Enough so that you, your partner, and the song are satisfied. No more and no less. This ain't like ballroom competitions where people dance at various levels, with each level having covered a certain number of moves. A person wants to feel special. If how you do that is with the number of your moves and how well you do them then the number is important. Not to me.

[borikensalsero]

It all depends by a) what you mean by good, b) what your idea of dancing salsa is. 3 moves is more than enough to dance a 4 to 5 minute song, however, too bad for those whose philosophy of salsa is patterns, because they will only see limits and boredom.

I’ve danced with some of the best dancers in NY City, and all I care to do is groove the heck out of them. Their big bright shining eyes, and a joyous smile is enough to let me know, I’ve captivated them. Guys, believe me, if you make a girl the center of all your attention, and dancing desires, you can do one move and she will love that one move, not because it is a great one, but because you are making her feel like the queen she is. For, it isn’t what you do, but how it is done. Feeling counts a heck of a lot more, than the execution of feeling-less patterns.

Believe it or not, for most songs and most partners I do a max of about 8 moves. If the song is really, really good, slow tempo, they go down to about 3 or 4 with different variations of it. If the song is good, medium tempo, and is mainly "montuno" I stay with my partner and do about 20, depending on how the song varies from bar to bar. I have no desire to learn or do any move that is deemed advanced, and needs the girl to know the move as well for it to be led. I stay with the easy, intermediate stuff that I can lead, even with my grand-ma.

I've never seen salsa dancing as a repertoire-throw-at my partner dance. Instead, I see it as a “matting” game, where I spend most of the song flirting and dancing around my partner, spend countless beats staring deep into her eyes, basically making her feel what the repertoire crazy guys don’t; the brightest start on a clear night sky.

I mainly use the upper body to dance, so I rarely bust out into a shine routine, unless the song is fast. But as for shines, I would have to say that this aspect of dancing should be very strong for any dancer. The more the merrier, however, it is all about, when they are used, why they are used, under what circumstances, and how they are used. You can get away with a minimal amount as long as you know how to make someone feel superb with your dancing skills.

In all, I say that for my dancing style I really don’t need more than 10 moves, and 10 shines to get through any song with anyone.

Always remember that Latin dancing has never been about “show” me what you got, but rather, as Vince says, a vertical expression of a horizontal dance. For which the subject is the music but the feeling is directed toward your partner… That pattern mentality is one created by a culture that deems the look of something, superior to the quality of something. When we get over the materialistic thinking that beauty and joy aren’t relative to how good you look, and how much you know, we'll all be way better depicters of Salsa dancing.

[Kitty]

I guess what I mean is that perhaps the question should be answered in terms of how many times it's okay to repeate something over the course of a single "dance" with someone.

If me and my partner just learned it I'd love to repeat it 10 million times during a song (if it is something cool, of course, like when I learned Rope turn and Aida I wanted to dance just that!). I mind repeating steps that don't move. In smooth and standard I don't get bored of basics as long as we are taking very big steps. In both jive and samba the basic is so busy, that I don't mind repeating it a lot too.
So you can do 5 crossbody leads in a row - they are still fun: they move.


If that makes sense:-).

[mellody43]

Always remember that Latin dancing has never been about “show” me what you got, but rather, as Vince says, a vertical expression of a horizontal dance. For which the subject is the music but the feeling is directed toward your partner… That mentality is one created by a culture that deems the look of something, superior to the quality of something. When we get over the materialistic thinking that beauty and joy aren’t relative to how good you look, and how much you know, we'll all be way better depicters of Salsa dancing.

=)
I say quality over quantity. As in most things. Except maybe brownies. :-)

Melissa

[tj]

It all depends by a) what you mean by good, b) what your idea of dancing salsa is. 3 moves is more than enough to dance a 4 to 5 minute song, however, too bad for those whose philosophy of salsa is patterns, because they will only see limits and boredom.


Nice post and I agree with your philosophy.

Thanks for sharing and taking the time to write such a lengthy response!

[meagalita]

boriquensalsero, um, can i fly out to NY to dance with you? you really hit the nail on the head about what it's all about. even in my beginning phase of dancing, i'm already getting it that my preference is not about turn pattern after turn pattern, but the connection my partner and i create, and we do this by being open to "love"..i say that with quotes as i don't mean "ooh, i'm interested in dating him" per se, but wow, this is a spiritual experience where we open up ourselves to our true essence and move in spontaneous ways full of life and energy..like in any art form, whether it's acting or painting or anything, you know when you've really let go of control and you're in the zone. the other night i was at this club i hadn't been to in san jose, the agenda lounge, and had a workshop with francisco vasquez (excellent btw)..after about 6 hours i was on my way out the door, and this salsero i had wanted to dance with earlier grabbed my hand without noticing that i had my purse, jacket, and clunky rubber soled street shoes on and tried to lead me out to the dance floor :lol: ..i was like, "mira, mira!" so he put my stuff down and we danced by the door; at first i was stiff and worried about wearing the wrong shoes, etc, but i just let go, and it was awesome. he helped me feel like i was sexy and appealing, and it wasn't about the repertoire but the energy..aiyayaai.
so to make a long story short, i'd much rather dance with someone who "sees" me and is caring about me with fewer moves than someone who is giving me a roller coaster ride and isn't as concerned about how i feel. youngsta, i sense that you are the former type of leader anyway, one that is in tune with your partner.

[mellody43]

boriquensalsero, um, can i fly out to NY to dance with you?

*psst --- I'm going to get that honor in December when I'm in NY! woo hoo*

=)
Melissa

[borikensalsero]

meagalita,
That is a touching way of expressing what you see in dancing. I loved reading it. :D :D

You are welcome to come to NY anytime you wish, or I too can travel my way there. :D

It is always a joy to see that dancers feel the love and the essence that salsa brings out in us.


Youngsta sure does sound like the loving, smooth, sassy hips kind of dancer.

His question is very valid as we all look to enhance transcend as dancers, and repertoire helps some break their own philosophy and transcend beyond the look at what I can do.

[borikensalsero]

boriquensalsero, um, can i fly out to NY to dance with you?

*psst --- I'm going to get that honor in December when I'm in NY! woo hoo*

=)
Melissa

You are seeing it incorrectly Melissa, the honor will be all mine. :D

[mellody43]

You are seeing it incorrectly Melissa, the honor will be all mine. :D

Now this is why boriken is POPULAR. LOL!

[borikensalsero]

You are seeing it incorrectly Melissa, the honor will be all mine. :D

Now this is why boriken is POPULAR. LOL!

:oops: :oops:

[youngsta]

You know I love dropping that question because it polarizes salseros/as...they either answer like Boriken (who I agree with btw) OR they answer that you need enough moves not to bore your partner (and lets be honest there are a LOT of followers out there that demand variety)

Youngsta sure does sound like the loving, smooth, sassy hips kind of dancer.
Oh lawd, not the hips again!! :lol:

[salsachinita]

For, it isn’t what you do, but how it is done. Feeling counts a heck of a lot more, than the execution of feeling-less patterns.

I've never seen salsa dancing as a repertoire-throw-at my partner dance. Instead, I see it as a “matting” game, where I spend most of the song flirting and dancing around my partner, spend countless beats staring deep into her eyes, basically making her feel what the repertoire crazy guys don’t; the brightest start on a clear night sky.

When we get over the materialistic thinking that beauty and joy aren’t relative to how good you look, and how much you know, we'll all be way better depicters of Salsa dancing.

:notworth: Boriken, as always :notworth: !

I really needed that today.......I think I've been repertoire-thrown once too many last night :x ........to the point that I'm starting to really feel like it's my fault :cry: .......

However, in a leader-short city, a girl has two choices: dance with whoever you can get, or sit out all night :headwall: !

I am SOOOOOO in need to have a dance with you, Boriken.....!

[youngsta]

Sorry to hear that salsachinita :( . I had a magical night last night. Man was I ever 'on'! Let's just say I was a SASSY hip machine!! :lol: :lol:

[salsachinita]

:banana: You go! SASSY hips machine :banana: !

:P :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[etchuck]

You know... that's a question that gets asked a lot with the club dances, and I think my instructors and many dancers respond the same way: it's so much better to have a solid technical swingout than to do a ton of twists with no technique.

To that extent, you cannot be a one-note/move samba either.

Borrowing from west coast swing, if you can nail down the five basic patterns, everything else can just be stylistic. As long as your connection is great, you can play with those passes. Same thing with salsa (granted I do ballroom-style/mambo salsa), but I think that one would rather dance with a person with great hip motion but can only do basic cross-body leads and simple turns than a Frankenstein doing various cuddle and hammerlock combination spins. Swing: I think the board already discussed this before -- a solid swing-out and Lindy circle is much better than doing any other move without a sense of connection.

That's at least why I think it doesn't matter about how many figures you know. You can learn figures in ballroom by buying the books for syllabus. It's the experience of that connection (mentioned by megalita) and the ability to communicate through that connection that makes the dance.

[jdavidb]

This thread would have been great for General Dance.

I think of it this way: The girl is bored with the guy's repertoire approximately 1 minute after the guy himself is bored. If the leader is bored with what he's doing, he needs to just find more stuff. The follower is not as aware or as bored with his repetition as he is.

[youngsta]

I think of it this way: The girl is bored with the guy's repertoire approximately 1 minute after the guy himself is bored. If the leader is bored with what he's doing, he needs to just find more stuff. The follower is not as aware or as bored with his repetition as he is.
If the guy has time to be bored while connected to a giving, enthusiastic follower...he's got other issues. When I'm dancing I'm not thinking about what moves I'm gonna do, they just happen. And what happens is directly determined by her input (the connection).

[dragon3085]

You can probably never had "too many" moves, but I've noticed with my dancing and when observing others, that certain moves or more popular or used on a frequent basis. So another question might not only how many moves or leads do you but how many do use on a regular basis?

[Sagitta]

What you do with a person depends on the person and the music. If I know the person likes spins I'm going to try and put in spins. If I know the person hates multiple spins and likes cuban style, I try and do that. If I know a person is a beginner I'll never throw her for a loop. I try my best not to have regular moves. I'm getting there. :) Even the basic can be done many different ways depending on the music.

[borikensalsero]

For, it isn’t what you do, but how it is done. Feeling counts a heck of a lot more, than the execution of feeling-less patterns.

I've never seen salsa dancing as a repertoire-throw-at my partner dance. Instead, I see it as a “matting” game, where I spend most of the song flirting and dancing around my partner, spend countless beats staring deep into her eyes, basically making her feel what the repertoire crazy guys don’t; the brightest start on a clear night sky.

When we get over the materialistic thinking that beauty and joy aren’t relative to how good you look, and how much you know, we'll all be way better depicters of Salsa dancing.

:notworth: Boriken, as always :notworth: !

I really needed that today.......I think I've been repertoire-thrown once too many last night :x ........to the point that I'm starting to really feel like it's my fault :cry: .......

However, in a leader-short city, a girl has two choices: dance with whoever you can get, or sit out all night :headwall: !

I am SOOOOOO in need to have a dance with you, Boriken.....!

I'm sorry to hear this salsa chinita... I'll have to get my job to get me a web cam so we virtually dance... :D :D

Expanding on what you said. The other night my Lady and I had the honor of meeting a delightful couple from London. They started talking to my lady about dancing philosophy. My lady went on to share her view of dancing. She mentioned that dancing isn’t how many different ways a leader can spin a follow. That it didn’t matter how many or complicated contortions a woman is put through that the essence of that particular style isn’t dancing because a spin is a spin no matter how different the leaders care to make it look. That she really dislikes when she dances with a leader who thinks that pattern creation is dancing, for it doesn’t give her a chance to enjoy nor groove to the music. That it really feels like she is being trapped, with no say in what she wants to achieve during the song. All she can do is follow, or be infuriated enough to tell the lead to let her go so she can have a chance to feel the music not just spin her way through 4 minutes of time, a time in which he didn’t get a chance to feel, enjoy, nor be herself in a song.

Sadly, out side a handful of dancers worldwide, salsa is really seen as it was never intended, but has become so because of a plethora of instructors teaching the dance, not realizing that Salsa isn’t what they are passing to their students and future instructors of that mentality. Rather, they teach, a conveyor belt philosophy of dancing that leads both leaders and followers to see patterns as salsa. To which and underlying unconscious belief is rooted, and becomes a salsa that isn’t truly salsa, but dancers only see as the only salsa that there has ever been, therefore, the true depiction of that which has, in their mind become, salsa. How can anyone explain to a person who follows a blind faith that they’ve failed to understand their very path?

How can you tell a prison builder, who has only seen his prison as paradise, that dancing a beautiful follow through the infrastructure of his prison, isn’t freedom? How do you tell an institutionalize follow that outside the confinements of her very reality, there is indeed, a world that she’s yet to experience? For the problem will never be the dancing or what is done, but the philosophy that is used to build that dance, and how many fail to see that they are indeed limited by the very mind that gives them the chance to move the body…

[borikensalsero]

Oh lawd, not the hips again!! :lol:

lol :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: , one day well get this banana to swing the hips :!:

[Flat Shoes]

Again speaking as a Lindy dancer. You can of course never have to many variations! 8) But you don't need that many patterns to be a good dancer. It's the basic variations and how you conduct them that makes the basis for a good dance. Then, from this basis, you can start adding in several different directions. You can add more patterns, you can add more musicality (doing the same patterns but with different kinds of tension, like slowing own, speeding up), you can add foot variations, you can add playfullness, ryhtm breaks and so forth.

Different music and different people have different personalities and tend to like different things. Some music demands playing to the tune, some people like fancy moves etc.

But it all comes down to one thing, it ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it.

When I was a beginner to Lindy, I was not very good at a lot of things. But I was good at one thing, learning new patterns. On my own I picked up a lot of different patterns, so instead of only doing the basic patterns badly I did a lot of different patterns badly. But at least I could now and then surprise the girls with some new and unexpected fun stuff. It kind of gave me a platform to develop my other dancing skills from. Today I'm hopefully a much better dancer, and I've probably forgotten a lot of the patterns from way back then. Just the other night I rediscovered and old pattern I haven't used for probably a year :)

What I'm saying is that there are many ways to develop your dance, new patterns is only one of them. There are many different personalities, some girls will be happy just doing a killer swingout, while others say they will, but in reality they demand variation.

Can I give a number for how many patterns is enough? I'd say if you got 20-30 down you should be safe. If you can learn to do variations in timing, leading, tension, rythm, footwork etc. on these patterns.... well I think you can have fun for a long long time before being bored. :D