Swayback....is it really a bad thing?

[SwingWaltz]

Watch this video....Luca, 2 times world champion in ballroom. So I'm taking that what ever he does, it can't be wrong!

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=jiVu6XyF2Mc

From my point of view, he has a massive swayback. So many people say that swayback should be avoided as much as possible. But look at Luca!

So the questions is, is having a swayback really as bad as people think?

[Chris Stratton]

Ultimately dancing runs into the limits of physics and human strength, and there are choices to be made. Each choice has it's own implications.

Project your weight forward of your foot and it's easier to have contact and a long lower back at the same time, but it takes extreme foot strength to move slowly and evenly though all phases of the step action - at a certain point it becomes impossible.

Carry your weight further back, more balanced over your foot, and you are able to move arbitrarily slowly though all phases of the step, but you will either often end up without contact, or arch your back to achieve it.

[Warren J. Dew]

Watch this video....Luca, 2 times world champion in ballroom. So I'm taking that what ever he does, it can't be wrong!

As a former world champion and coach of world champions once told me, the world champions are not perfect - there just doesn't happen to be anyone else better at the moment.

Come to think of it, the person who told me that coached Luca when Luca was world champion, too.

Assuming that the world champions "can't be wrong" is a very dangerous assumption.

[Warren J. Dew]

P.S. I think it's interesting to pause that video on the outside partner step at the end of the first feather. It really shows how good a dancer Lorraine is!

[waltzgirl]

It seems to me to be part of the way he uses his back much more flexibly than most men. The amount of curve in his lower back varied depending on his movement. It was greatest when he was moving backwards, when it appeared to me he was using a "sitting" movement (I was once advised to "sit" when going backwards and "kneel" when going forwards). Personally, I found overtucking my hips (a pre-dance habit) a hindrance to good dancing and found I moved better if kept the front of my hips more open even if it did create a bit more curve in my lower back.

[tangotime]

Watch this video....Luca, 2 times world champion in ballroom. So I'm taking that what ever he does, it can't be wrong!




Yes it can.... total perfection is virtually non existent. I,ve seen just about every Champ. from way back, and can recall " mistakes " for want of a better term, with pretty much all , at one time or another . ( mainly technical, but it does happen )
There is a vid. on site somewhere, with a world class couple, and his foot position in his DR spin, would not pass an Assoc. exam .

Reminds me of what one of my coaches told me many yrs ago, when I asked who generally wins at the higher levels.. his response " the one that makes the fewest mistakes ! "....


What you seem to be commenting upon, is " Style " . If you lined up each Champ. from the past 60 yrs ( most unbeaten ) they pretty much would show an evolution of style change.. so.. were they wrong ?... of course not.. style in many cases , is opinion .. you either like it or you dont. Techniques do change, mostly for the better, and with that, sometimes a paradigm shift in execution .

The " Latin " , gives a much more defined e.g of the above .

[katandmouse]

Watch this video....Luca, 2 times world champion in ballroom. So I'm taking that what ever he does, it can't be wrong!

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=jiVu6XyF2Mc

From my point of view, he has a massive swayback. So many people say that swayback should be avoided as much as possible. But look at Luca!

So the questions is, is having a swayback really as bad as people think?

First of all, what defines "wrong"? If you have a set of rules and if Luca breaks one of those, is that wrong? Yes, if you define it to be so. But I would say that if there is a rule that says that Luca is doing it wrong, then that rule shouldn't be there in the first place. Luca's dancing is exquisite and exquisite dancing is everyone's goal. There is only one rule governing exquisite dancing and that is that it is exquisite. He does not do it wrong then.

As for the swayback, I'm not sure you can even say that is something he is doing. My guess is it's probably something he was born with. As long as it doesn't get in the way of exquisite dancing, why complain about it. Because someone said it's wrong? That doesn't make sense. I'd say to that teacher or that judge, "You read your rulebook. I'm going to go watch Luca dance."

My first dance teacher told me I should have a flat back. He took my hips and put them in posterior tilt and told me I had to stand and walk like that all the time, when I walked to my car, when I shopped, when I cleaned house. How could I expect to do that on the dance floor if it wasn't a habit, he said. Good student that I am, I did just what he said. Within a year and a half, it led to a pelvic girdle collapse and severely ruptured disc. I've spent the last 3 years in therapy and live with a permanent injury because he wanted to take the curve out of my back. I know now what he was after, but he clearly didn't.

So, careful. Dance teachers in this country are not required to know anatomy and biomechanics. They can, unknowingly, lead you astray. This is not to say that getting some of that sway out is a bad thing. It's just how one goes about it that is my concern.

[elisedance]

P.S. I think it's interesting to pause that video on the outside partner step at the end of the first feather. It really shows how good a dancer Lorraine is!

spectacular reach and floor contact - but look at the non-heel turns :o

[SwingWaltz]

Yep...agree with you guys and I wasn't implying that Luca is perfect.
I was trying to say that a lot of people has said to me that I should avoid swayback as much as possible because it is dead WRONG and wrecks the over all look and posture! So I was just trying to say that maybe it's not as wrong as people think.

[elisedance]

And I think you are right on - still its not something one would encourage ;). Was his back the same when he was at his peak or is it possible its got worse?

[Larinda McRaven]

Right, wrong, perfect, imperfect, whatever... consider the context of the Foxchatrot. Playful and cheeky, having fun, not trying to win the orld Championships. I think they are allowed to indulge in their idosyncrasies.

[Joe]

It looks to me in that video that Luca has some extra weight in his belly, and that gives him a little extra "swayback" appearance.

[Chris Stratton]

It looks to me in that video that Luca has some extra weight in his belly, and that gives him a little extra "swayback" appearance.

Look at him in profile right where he first starts going backwards out of the reverse turn - the projection there is not at belly level but has moved higher, and you can see it reflected in the back.

If you listen to one of Luca's lectures, he has a somewhat different theory of how the body works in an activity such as dancing than most other teachers do. The good thing is that his dancing and his explanation are compatible - the real problem would be if a teacher says things that conflict with how they actually dance.

[Joe]

I'm just saying that the gut enhances the swayback appearance due to the extra covexity.

[Chris Stratton]

I'm just saying that the gut enhances the swayback appearance due to the extra covexity.

Look at the frame that I'm looking at and you'll see that there isn't a "gut".

[Chris Stratton]

but look at the non-heel turns :o

huh?

[katandmouse]

And I think you are right on - still its not something one would encourage ;). Was his back the same when he was at his peak or is it possible its got worse?

He always wore a jacket, so if it was that way, it was a secret. I showed a non-dancer friend of mine this video and he said Luca has a pot belly. It's really his back and lordosis that is causing that. If I were Luca, I'd check in with a professional and have this looked at. This condition can lead to lower back problems. It's a much easier problem to correct than what I had to do. If you want to learn more, research "anterior pelvic tilt" and "lordosis."

I really hope Luca wannabes don't begin thinking the swayback is desirable because it appears to lend to his flexibility and then try to copy this. This is a postural deviancy inherent in Luca's body. Those in the know would even tell you this condition could most definitely effect your dancing - in a NEGATIVE way.

[katandmouse]

It looks to me in that video that Luca has some extra weight in his belly, and that gives him a little extra "swayback" appearance.

You were all talking about his gut when I was writing my other post. See that above. The curve of the spine and the forward hip tilt causes the gut to protrude.

For your research:
http://www.hesfit.com/men/comment/losing-your-gut-anterior-pelvic-tilt/

[katandmouse]

I'm just saying that the gut enhances the swayback appearance due to the extra covexity.

It's actually just the reverse.

[YanaA]

Before he danced differently, I think. Now he found what works for him. All the good dancers try different things and choose whatever is best for their anatomy and looks the best for their body built. I've heard that his ribcage is naturally much more forward that most people, that his ribs stick out. Thats how he is built and that what works for him. Nothing wrong with that.

[YanaA]

I agree with Chris. They isnt a gut. It looks like if he leads from the belly but they have strong connection in ribcage area. The ribcage is more forward than the belly. He is not sticking his belly out. Hips are backwards, they dont try to be connected in the lower body and that allows complete freedom of movement for both partners

[Rugby]

katandmouse I agree with you. I am hyperflexive, or what was onced called double jointed. I used to dance with a short guy and I would sway my back to make our heights more compatible because it was easy for me to do. It became a habit and I didn't even realize I was still doing it long after the short guy was gone. Over time it has taken a toll on my lower back and I am trying my best to get rid of it. The other problem with swaying your back is that you can block the man by swaying the back rather than opening the hips. Now I am trying to stay tall and long through my body. It not only shows my height off but allows for a better, more balanced and breatheable contact.
As for the belly issue, if I stand properly I don't have a "gut" but if I sway then my gut of course sticks out. I have videos of Luca from way back and there was no sway. I have also noticed some of the tall male instructors start to sway their back when dancing with short ladies. Guess without knowing it (or maybe they do) they might be doing the same thing I did to make the bodies fit better.

[YanaA]

I don't think he breaks his lower back-he still keeps it long but has different connection with the partner and has his chest more forward. The curve is not bigger than the natural curve

[Warren J. Dew]

It looks to me in that video that Luca has some extra weight in his belly, and that gives him a little extra "swayback" appearance.

In this particular video, we can't see enough to tell for sure, but when I have seen other people with the "pregnant man" look on the dance floor, and also seen them stand up straight off the dance floor, it usually turns out that they have no belly whatsoever. An actual pot belly normally extends sideways as well as forward.

Was his back the same when he was at his peak or is it possible its got worse?

The linked video is a response to another video entitled "Young Luca Baricchi & Loraine Barry Foxtrot Demo". I see much of the same effect in that earlier video, though it might not be as pronounced.

[Chris Stratton]

I don't think he breaks his lower back-he still keeps it long but has different connection with the partner and has his chest more forward. The curve is not bigger than the natural curve

Going to have to disagree with that. If you take a picture, erase the partner, and paste it over a backdrop that isn't a dance setting, it's going to look like rather unusual posture.

With the partner, in a dance setting, it's easy to see what this approach does and why it was chosen.

I think the unique aspects of this way of dancing are a lot more understandable in the light of his lecture comments on posture and alignment vs. freedom of movement. The problem however is that in the lecture the alternative presented and rejected is not a realistic representation of the more traditional way of dancing - it's not just aligned in the back, it's rigid everywhere, and obviously that will impede movement in a way that being aligned in the back but flexible in the hip sockets does not for generations of dancers who have used that method.

[katandmouse]

I agree with Chris. They isnt a gut. It looks like if he leads from the belly but they have strong connection in ribcage area. The ribcage is more forward than the belly. He is not sticking his belly out. Hips are backwards, they dont try to be connected in the lower body and that allows complete freedom of movement for both partners


I think I've posted 4 times on this now and tried to say the same thing each time. I'm worried that people are going to think that since Luca assumes this posture that it is a good thing or being used to his advantage, and thus something others should be doing as well. The fact that you all are starting to over-analyze this is the start of that. Like I tried to say before, Luca is not conscientiously creating this posture. It is inherent within him. The protrusion of the gut is very typical of anterior pelvic tilt. See my other posts. And for those who think this is a posture Luca assumes just when he's dancing (for dancing), look again and look at the attachments to this post. He has anterior tilt just standing there.

I know quite a bit about bio-mechanics and postural deviancies from a study of my own condition. I am not a professional, but if you all like, I can bring one in to explain further.

[SwingWaltz]

I'm worried that people are going to think that since Luca assumes this posture that it is a good thing or being used to his advantage, and thus something others should be doing as well.

Point taken. But I don't think you know where I am coming from.

I am NOT trying to create the Luca posture. But I have a natural sway in my back. People tell me that I NEED to get rid of the sway as it wrecks my posture. All I was trying to say that having a sway doesn't necessarily wrecks the posture!

[QPO]

When I viewed the video I thought his sway back perhaps was more obvious due to him carry weight. He may have a sway back, I do and I have to think about projecting my hips forward and maintaining body connection so it is less emphasized. I love to look at their dancing it is wonderful. I can only dream, but starting at 48 does leave me at a bit of a disadvantage, but I am up to the challenge.

[pruthe]

When I viewed the video I thought his sway back perhaps was more obvious due to him carry weight. He may have a sway back, I do and I have to think about projecting my hips forward and maintaining body connection so it is less emphasized. I love to look at their dancing it is wonderful. I can only dream, but starting at 48 does leave me at a bit of a disadvantage, but I am up to the challenge.

He may have a little extra weight in belly area, but like K&M says, looks like defect in spine. Some of the videos I've viewed of Luca and Lorraine's dancing, sway back seems less visible, even with jacket on. I'm thinking he makes an adjustment to compensate. Projecting hips forward is one way, but what about pulling in belly muscles to more flatten spine. You can stand against a wall to see difference. (Btw, I think Luca and Lorraine are fantastic dancers.)

[Josh]

spectacular reach and floor contact - but look at the non-heel turns :o

I see mostly perfect heel turns, when he leads them. Maybe you're looking at places like 0:20 and 0:48 and you think it should be a heel turn, but it's not.

[elisedance]

Really Josh? I thought it was a heel turn that maybe ran into the wall..
Whats that step then?

[katandmouse]

Point taken. But I don't think you know where I am coming from.

I am NOT trying to create the Luca posture. But I have a natural sway in my back. People tell me that I NEED to get rid of the sway as it wrecks my posture. All I was trying to say that having a sway doesn't necessarily wrecks the posture!

Yes, I know. It is not you I'm concerned about. The discussion was starting to go into how he is doing that. That could lead to someone trying to copy something that is not a dance technique, but a physical condition. That could be harmful. I'm trying to keep it from going there.

I agree with you. I think you only need to correct it if it is creating a physical problem for you or preventing you from dancing correctly, and by that, I do not mean without a swayback.

I do think that an elongated back, not only looks nice, it actually frees up mobility in the spine, the hips, and then the legs. So it is a good thing to try and achieve for that reason if you don't have it already, and you may! If you want to do that, though, don't go in the opposite direction, i.e., into posterior tilt. That is very dangerous. I know. Trust me. What you want to do is think of lengthening the spine. Experiment with that. When you get it right, you should feel your tailbone turn under slightly. Pull your deep, deep core muscles in at the same time.

What I find sad is that ballroom dancing has become somewhat of an organized religion with a lot of rules that MUST NOT be broken - or else. There should be suggestions, not rules, and one should not be judged for failure to follow a suggestion. As long as we all get to "heaven," who cares how we get there. Different paths, different postures, they all add to the individualism and the beauty of dance if we allow ourselves to think of them that way instead of aberrations (rule-breaking).

I happen to worship at the altar of Luca and highly recommend this DVD that has his "Form Follows Function" lecture. It's worth its weight in gold: tinyurl.com/a2y9vj

[katandmouse]

Really Josh? I thought it was a heel turn that maybe ran into the wall..
Whats that step then?

Ah, ha. This can lead into a new "Form Follows Function" discussion! I see what you're saying Elise, particularly at 48 seconds. See the comment above I just made about rules. We're taught feet have to come together and we have to turn on the heel. Lorraine didn't do that. But maybe Luca was taking license with a step to fit that room, and that made that impossible. His goal was to get around her and he did that. Goal accomplished. Well done. Love to hear what a pro or judge would say about this, though.

I did not get to see them dance in Vegas, but my friend did. He said if you held the rulebook up to Luca, he broke many of the rules. He was doing things my friend was taught to never, ever, ever do. Would he do that in competition? I'd like to think so, but probably not if he wanted to win because many of the judges carry a rulebook with them, figuratively speaking. This is unfortunate and, from the lectures I've heard, I think Luca is trying to change that.

[samina]

Watch this video....Luca, 2 times world champion in ballroom. So I'm taking that what ever he does, it can't be wrong!

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=jiVu6XyF2Mc

From my point of view, he has a massive swayback. So many people say that swayback should be avoided as much as possible. But look at Luca!

So the questions is, is having a swayback really as bad as people think?

i think it's an illusion, not a real swayback. i see it that his hips are soft in order to allow more space for movement. he teaches this technique in this Dance Bible DVD...

[samina]

spectacular reach and floor contact - but look at the non-heel turns :o

non-heel turns? not following...(pun not intended...)

[samina]

Look at the frame that I'm looking at and you'll see that there isn't a "gut".

i agree. his torso rests forward a bit, as if on a shelf. i studied that guys body & how he holds it like crazy when i watched his Dance Bible several times a couple years ago, lol. i remember noticing the same thing and wondering, what's up with that? he's doing something mechanical, on purpose, by now i'm sure quite natural.

[samina]

I know quite a bit about bio-mechanics and postural deviancies from a study of my own condition. I am not a professional, but if you all like, I can bring one in to explain further.
those are good little diagrams.

it is my understanding that he tilts it on purpose.

[samina]

I see mostly perfect heel turns, when he leads them.

i agree. lorraine has the best feet i've ever seen...mesmerizing.

[elisedance]

at 48 sec (apparently I didn't note Josh did) he leads her into what looks like an aborted natural turn figure but there is no heelturn. Both Josh and Chris think this was a legit step but it must be something I don't know cause it looks weird to me. I would certainly do a heel turn there - but if it is correct I would love to learn what she is doing...

[You might want to trace this back to my original comment #8, CS at #16, Josh at #30 and K&M #33]

[Rugby]

Okay everybody I can end the mystery here about the heel turn. Its actually a change of direction with sway ending. We have the identical step in our routine with the same sway ending though we take ours into a swivel afterward then into the type of promenade exit they have. In our lesson video we look exactly as they do but obviously they are more skilled.
Luca has the theory that the man should always be overtop of the woman in a dominant manner, which results in the posture he uses. He mentioned and showed this idea at the Blackpool workshops in 2003 I believe.

[madmaximus]

Yep, Rugby's right.
It's an overstretched change of direction--with almost like a lilt ending.

One thing though (intentionally or otherwise) the tilt to the L into the Man's RF to the side is a bit exaggerated which makes him step about 25 cms too far to the side that Lorraine needs to take a farther step with the LF--makes it look too obvious, or for this discussion, a possible mistake.

He seems to do the same thing again around 1:05.





m

[samina]

Luca has the theory that the man should always be overtop of the woman in a dominant manner, which results in the posture he uses. He mentioned and showed this idea at the Blackpool workshops in 2003 I believe.

yes, exactly. it's quite a distinct style to watch in person, noticeable immediately when you try to duplicate it & don't come anywhere near it, lol. he makes mechanical adjustments that allow the lady to get in under him. i've seen the coach that GJB & i study with do this as well...i love the look of it.

[DanceMentor]

Put the tailsuit on, and you won't see the swayback. ;)
When the sway back is the result of the stomach not being held in, I think that is a problem. On the video, this is certainly something notable, but Luca is not competing, so the panel of judges just us DFers. :)

[katandmouse]

i think it's an illusion, not a real swayback. i see it that his hips are soft in order to allow more space for movement. he teaches this technique in this Dance Bible DVD...

Sorry, but I have to disagree. He teaches soft hips yes, but anterior tilt no. You don't need to do that to your spine to get soft hips. In fact they work better without that tilt.

Here is another diagram http://tinyurl.com/7tvn3b from the book Dance Anatomy and Kinesiology. In that picture you can clearly see the same anterior pelvic tilt you see in Luca when he is standing still waiting for Lorraine (see my posted diagram in another post).

I'll bring a professional in who is an expert at this sort of thing to be sure he agrees. In any case, it's still important that all of us - teachers and students - understand what is correct from an anatomical point of view so we don't make the mistake of trying to copy and then acquire a deviation or compensation.

[G809]

In that picture you can clearly see the same anterior pelvic tilt you see in Luca when he is standing still waiting for Lorraine (see my posted diagram in another post).

I think he is standing that way because he is preparing to dance and has initiated his dance posture.

[samina]

Meh...he specifically identifies what sounds like an anterior tilt (slight rotation of the hip down & up the back) in the Dance Bible. I understand it as a tool to be used or not used for specific purpose. In the context of his instruction, it is paired with a slight rotation of the torso up and down the back. It is this combination which gives the appearance of sway in his back.

We've discussed this a number of times on DF over the last couple years. I agree it's a good idea to know why one would want to do (or not do) such a thing, because it can certainly create distortions rather than solutions. I know that from personal experience, heh. :)

[Ithink]

Someone told me that Luca had his tailsuits made specifically to cover the curve in his back during his competition career because he knew the judges would look down on it. Now that he's retired, he can freely show it off and I, for one, think his posture AND his dancing is beautiful site to behold. Whatever he's doing, it's certainly working for him:)

And I agree sam: he definitely teaches that sort of posture in the Dance Bible and so do his students.

[samina]

Good to hear, ithink...I was sure I hadn't misunderstood the vid. :)

It helped me greatly at a time I needed to make a shift in the alignment of my body. Now I align things with a different model, building upon where I have been before, but I am very aware of when my instructors make an adjustment for me which achieves that tilt...am slowly acquiring some discrimination as to when to use, for my own purposes.

In a recentish lesson with GJB, our coach described it as "thru the lymph nodes", the ones that are in the front sides of the pelvis. Tilting that down nicely opens a space for the partner.

I look forward to a time when I understand the judicious application of the tool...

[katandmouse]

In a recentish lesson with GJB, our coach described it as "thru the lymph nodes", the ones that are in the front sides of the pelvis. Tilting that down nicely opens a space for the partner.


I understand this teaching and agree with it. Stephen Hannah taught this to me. I call it "letting it all spill out" as I imagine the iliac "bowl" tipping over slightly. I don't equate what Stephen taught me with anterior tilt, however. A healthy pelvis should be this way all the time. Perhaps Luca is going for more. It would be interesting to get a kinesiologist's opinion.

[katandmouse]

Meh...he specifically identifies what sounds like an anterior tilt (slight rotation of the hip down & up the back) in the Dance Bible. I understand it as a tool to be used or not used for specific purpose.

Ok, I'll check it out. I have the Bible. Do you know what chapter?

[Warren J. Dew]

he makes mechanical adjustments that allow the lady to get in under him.

I would note that the pelvic tilt is not required to allow the lady to take that position; old fashioned forward poise combined with a toned center are enough for that.

What the pelvic tilt does is provide a few extra inches of separation from the waist down - which is what allows one to see Luca's belt buckle in the video. As Chris pointed out earlier, the extra space is one way of achieving freedom of movement for the legs, though not the only way.

[samina]

I believe it's the 1st chapter, K&M...when he's talking about balance and how to align the body to achieve that. I remember distinctly what a mind-blower it was because, as I brought my torso more forward and achieved the soft hip & torso rotations, my body felt such *relief*.

Previously I had aligned everything more traditionally as taught to dancers and in Pilates, with the pelvis slightly tipped and trying to have a straight back. But with that one viewing, my alignment felt so much more at ease and "organic". Also, *immediately*, my neck ceased needing to be regularly cracked (by myself). Although as I've said I align myself now using a different model when dancing, I still generally maintain that soft rotation in hips and torso when at ease. I remain grateful for his having shared that paradigm, because I have never encountered it anywhere else.

[waltzgirl]

I think part of the key is that his lower back position is not fixed; the amount of curve varies depending on what he is doing. It's probably a lot less likely to cause problems if it's used dynamically, rather than holding it.

I know what you mean about posterior tilt, kam. I had the habit of holding my pelvis in a posterior tilt (from growing up pre-J. Lo and trying futilely to hide the junk in my trunk :p). Dancing has corrected that and I have much less back pain than I used to.

[katandmouse]

Good to hear, ithink...I was sure I hadn't misunderstood the vid. :)

It helped me greatly at a time I needed to make a shift in the alignment of my body....when my instructors make an adjustment for me which achieves that tilt..

I think it is extremely important for anyone reading this dialog to understand what is good or even ok for one person's body may not be good for another. Perhaps you have a slight posterior tilt. This then would be very good advice for you. For someone who already has anterior tilt or even perfect neutral position (which is tilted too), the advice might not be so good.

[Chris Stratton]

Ah, ha. This can lead into a new "Form Follows Function" discussion! I see what you're saying Elise, particularly at 48 seconds. See the comment above I just made about rules. We're taught feet have to come together and we have to turn on the heel. Lorraine didn't do that. But maybe Luca was taking license with a step to fit that room, and that made that impossible. His goal was to get around her and he did that. Goal accomplished. Well done.

She did what as was lead, which was not really a heel turn. If she had closed her feet, he would not have been able to make that lateral movement once past her, or at least she would not have been able to join him in it. In some ways the action of the first step is like a heel turn, but the trajectory after that is not one intended to close her feet. It's higher and more braced in that first step than I would personally lead a change of direction, but that is an entirely plausible suggestion.

If I recall, there's only one actual heel turn in the whole sequence, right at the beginning.

[Warren J. Dew]

She did what as was lead, which was not really a heel turn.

Nor should it be, since he's leading a change of direction there at 0:48, which does not involve any foot closure.

Her step is smaller than is perhaps typical for the lady in the change of direction, which may be why it looks to some like a missed heel turn. His is larger. Tying this back into the original subject of the thread, I think that is because of the extra distance between their legs from the pelvic tilt. In the second step of the change of direction, where the man has to get around the lady, any distance between them must be made up by a larger man's step.

[samina]

I think it is extremely important for anyone reading this dialog to understand what is good or even ok for one person's body may not be good for another. .

yes, this should be a given with dance. there are very few things i've come across in ballroom that can be confidently universalized. it seems everything is debatable, lots of different preferences out there.

[katandmouse]

I believe it's the 1st chapter, K&M...when he's talking about balance and how to align the body to achieve that. I remember distinctly what a mind-blower it was because, as I brought my torso more forward and achieved the soft hip & torso rotations, my body felt such *relief*.



I found what you are talking about I think. In the chapter where he describes the rotary actions, he demonstrates going into anterior tilt and then to posterior tilt. Through these exercises he is teaching articulation of the joints in order to maintain vertical weight fall and not lose balance. When you watch the team demonstrate these principles in their dancing, you do not see it to the extreme that he or they demonstrated. It is much more subtle, but there.

I'm referring to something entirely different. Luca most definitely has a swayback. This is not a posture he assumes for dancing, and that is even more clear if you look at him from the side in the Bible when he is just standing there.

So the misunderstanding here is that I'm referring to his everyday posture, you're referring to the way he is moving. That extra swayback you see in his movement, is only "extra" because he has more tilt than the average person to begin with.

Therefore this extra swayback is not something the average person should try to achieve. They'd be forcing something out of their bodies that their bodies are not designed for because their tilt isn't as extreme as his is by nature.

I say, don't imitate the swayback, but do imitate the articulation.

Does that make more sense?

[Josh]

at 48 sec (apparently I didn't note Josh did) he leads her into what looks like an aborted natural turn figure but there is no heelturn. Both Josh and Chris think this was a legit step but it must be something I don't know cause it looks weird to me. I would certainly do a heel turn there - but if it is correct I would love to learn what she is doing...

[You might want to trace this back to my original comment #8, CS at #16, Josh at #30 and K&M #33]

The 48 second figure is just a change of direction. What Lorraine probably feels there is a bit of rise, but the sharp left sway immediately causes the weight change before the feet come all the way together, and then she probably feels the strong rotation which causes her right foot to go back instead of forward. This sharp directional change, which is initiated on the first step, nullifies the possibility of a heel turn. It's deceptive because we see the real action happen between 2 and 3, but it really started on 1, which is why she never closed her feet on 2. That's my take anyway.

[Josh]

k-n-m, your description makes perfect sense, and I think it's great advice to not try to achieve what we visually see, because often what we visually see is present in a person for a reason, like the one you mentioned with Luca (the fact that he already has a postural misalignment--and it's no insult to call it that, it is what it is, and we all have our misalignments!).

I have a tendency to have an arched lower back and get yelled at all the time by my coach for it.

As for Luca doing things different from most, I say more power to him! I personally do not like the look, and though he is obviously one of the best ballroom dancers in the world, I do not find his style more compelling than those with a more traditional look or posture. When I watch him dance it's very enjoyable, however, not nearly as much so to me as some others. Hence, I try to avoid having the arched back.

[Josh]

Put the tailsuit on, and you won't see the swayback. ;)

But I think you would see the result of it, which is a shorter back. You may not see the "dip," but the overall length of the back would physically have to be shorter... I know because I am fighting this same battle right now :-)

[tangotime]

at 48 sec (apparently I didn't note Josh did) he leads her into what looks like an aborted natural turn figure but there is no heelturn.



Its a " compacted " change of direction., and yes, her 1st heel turn was sloppy...

[Josh]

Its a " compacted " change of direction., and yes, her 1st heel turn was sloppy...

With so much swing, I think she did pretty good there, though she did not completely close-- lots of women would LOVE to be able to do such a "sloppy" heel turn! ;-)

[tangotime]

Luca has the theory that the man should always be overtop of the woman in a dominant manner,







That is the same principle that was used in the 30s / 40s, not quite as pronounced, but, never the less the same .

The fwd " pitch ", many felt, was a more naturally aligned body stance, predicated on how we walk ( it did get slightly overstated at times .)

[katandmouse]

k-n-m, your description makes perfect sense, and I think it's great advice to not try to achieve what we visually see, because often what we visually see is present in a person for a reason, like the one you mentioned with Luca (the fact that he already has a postural misalignment--and it's no insult to call it that, it is what it is, and we all have our misalignments!).

Perfect. Glad to hear this makes sense now. And I like the way you explain it.

Don't you feel funny saying Luca has a misalignment? That's like saying God has a snotty nose. :-) The beauty of it though is you can have a deviation and still be great! OMG, what a wonderful ah ha moment that is for me! There's hope!

You can call me Kat, by the way.

[katandmouse]

But I think you would see the result of it, which is a shorter back. You may not see the "dip," but the overall length of the back would physically have to be shorter... I know because I am fighting this same battle right now :-)

According to my trainer, this is not hard to fix. He's supposed to pop in here. When he does, ask him how.

[Josh]

Trainer as in "workout" or "personal trainer"? I am going to do a bit of pilates soon (used to do it years ago) and see how it feels.

[katandmouse]

Trainer as in "workout" or "personal trainer"? I am going to do a bit of pilates soon (used to do it years ago) and see how it feels.
Neither. He is a corrective exercise specialist and flexibility expert. He used to specialize in just dancers. His speciality now is muscle balancing for everyone. He'll tell you more if he ever joins in. He doesn't have a website yet. But he's been promising it for years, so it's probably coming any day now. :-)

Pilates is great. I work with a private teacher every week and do my homework every day. My pilates teacher is phenomenal. Not your normal trainer. She is also trained in neuro-muscular reprogramming. Find one who does that if you can.

[waltzguy]

I'm reviving this thread because I recently took a lesson with a visiting instructor. This instructor has told me that I need to keep my hips more forward, and have a flat back. She tells me that I should not be showing any curve in my low back, as a result of the hips forward. The reason for this is for contact with the partner.

This is very uncomfortable for me, since I naturally have a noticeable curve at my back. I know we don't want to stick our butts out, but I'm wondering if this "flat back" message is too extreme. If dancing is a lot like walking in some sense, I want to walk around with a natural curve in my back.

Need help on this.

Are you around, Dancepro?

[NonieS]

I have been told by many teachers in all sorts of dance styles not to force myself to lose the natural curve of my back... obviously, that is to say, I am not to stick my rear out... but to force myself to flatten my back, i can throw off my proper vertical alignment. Plus, it is not comfortable... that is my $.02

[btfgus]

I'm reviving this thread because I recently took a lesson with a visiting instructor. This instructor has told me that I need to keep my hips more forward, and have a flat back. She tells me that I should not be showing any curve in my low back, as a result of the hips forward. The reason for this is for contact with the partner.

This is very uncomfortable for me, since I naturally have a noticeable curve at my back. I know we don't want to stick our butts out, but I'm wondering if this "flat back" message is too extreme. If dancing is a lot like walking in some sense, I want to walk around with a natural curve in my back.



When this stance (ribs more forward, hips released) was first introduced to me it made so much sense. Not only did it lend to my natural non-dancing stance but I could conclude that the body bears weight most efficiently with the curve of the lower back in tact, not trying to dilute it or flatten it out. Swing was more effortless as the pelvis was in a neutral position or as some say a "state of flux".

Contact with the partner does not have to be at the hip level, but can be higher towards the rib cage leaving the pelvis free. Lengthening the centre or front should take care of the contact or connection.

[Chris Stratton]

There's natural curve in the spine, but then there's also un-natural curve, which could either be something picked up with dancing, or something inherited from daily life.

The picked up from dancing sort is usually either an attempt to create 'shape' in an uninformed way, or an attempt to maintain body contact by protruding the belly to cover any gap due to insufficient foot skills to permit more close coordination.

The inherited from daily life form can have many causes ranging from habit to medical condition.

[fascination]

I discovered recently that this is an issue of mine and dearly wish it had been noticed sooner...am constantly asking if my back is elongated enough now...sigh

[AndaBien]

As distinct from style, what about structure? I've danced for 45 years and I have a sway back (lordosis). It's gradually becoming rather painful.

[fascination]

I do alot of pelvic tilts at the gym and lower back exercises and stretches to keep that area in good shape

[waltzguy]

I'm reading multiple people indicate that natural = good, which I agree with 100%. Therefore, I would tend to question the validity of intentionally flattening out the back, something that neither feels effective nor comfortable.

And yes I agree that contact can be above the waistline. I think it ultimately depends on the form-fit-function of the specific couple in question. To force anything absolute, such as, you shall straighten out the back, is (I repeat) questionable.

But what do I know.

[Chris Stratton]

I'm reading multiple people indicate that natural = good, which I agree with 100%. Therefore, I would tend to question the validity of intentionally flattening out the back, something that neither feels effective nor comfortable.

It all depends on if what is "natural" is ultimately healthy, or if it's a bad habit or medical pathology...

What is natural for one person may be great; what is natural as in typical in everyday life for another may be problematic, both for dancing and ultimately for everyday life.

[QPO]

the biggest issue I have with my sway back is then my bottom can stick out, so I contanstly have to be awre that I put my hips forward. Constant challenge :P