Does social dance help or harm a competitive dancer?

[pygmalion]

This has come up in a couple other threads, so I figured I'd try to gather all our thoughts in one place. Does social dance help a competitive dancer? (via extra practice time for patterns, floorcraft, lead/follow, etc.) or does it harm (by instilling non-competitive styling and habits?) Does the relationship change as a dancer progresses?

Thoughts?

[ShyDancer]

I cant speak from experience or even knowledge..

But I have a thought, Wouldnt social dancing be good for a serious competetior, even if its just to remind them why they love dancing?

[etchuck]

Again, one of our successful amateur couples here are frequently seen on the social floor. Many of the more competitive adult couples too. Part of it is to help promote the activity, but also to encourage more support among our community for the people who do competitively dance.

Whether it's better for their dancing... I think the most experienced dancers can balance the differences between social and competitive dancing. The best ones know that social dancing is how they started, and that they have an obligation to give back. Or that's my idealistic world.

[youngsta]

Since I'm not in the ballroom scene I'd love to know, is there much social dancing other than studio parties?

[ShyDancer]

Since I'm not in the ballroom scene I'd love to know, is there much social dancing other than studio parties?

Not that I know of.

All ballroom events here are held at studios, every studio has their social night weekly, The bigger studios have more, some even 5 nights a week. There is never a lack of places to dance, but there isnt anything (to my knowledge) other than that, no night clubs like Salsa..but then thats a different scene altogether!

[etchuck]

Here, there are opportunities run independently of the studios (not that there are that many). The local USABDA chapter and the college clubs organize dances regularly (at least when school is in session). Also, many other people also organize smaller dances.

[jon]

Since I'm not in the ballroom scene I'd love to know, is there much social dancing other than studio parties?

Depends how you mean "studio party". There is no club dancing in the swing / salsa sense, but there are often dances run outside formal studio contexts. The biggest ballroom dances around here are run by an independent teacher, in a gynnasium rented each week. The next biggest are indeed at a studio, but aren't "studio parties" in the sense of drawing only people who take classes there.

[Warren J. Dew]

In the Boston area, there used to be at least two commercial ballrooms. I know one of them has switched to Latin; I'm not sure what the other is doing these days.

There are also several regular or semiregular dances run by local DJs, moderately frequent dances at the various colleges, in addition to the studio dances, many of which are open to the public.

[Porfirio Landeros]

Since I'm not in the ballroom scene I'd love to know, is there much social dancing other than studio parties?

Just about every town I've ever lived in has a community recreation center that hosts ballroom dances, tea dances, or some other social dance event that includes either a live band or a ballroom mix of music. Now, it may be the case that 95% of the regulars at these socials are also getting special discounts at Sizzler and movie theaters, but that doesn't matter - it's a public ballroom dance! You're usually welcomed with open arms, so long as you keep your dancing in the fast lane and learn to navigate around couples that leave their left blinker on.

[mamboqueen]

I'm thinking along a slightly different line here. I don't think the social dances detract from the competitions; the price disparity is so great that one isn't likely to debate paying $10 vs. $500.

But, when I read this, I initially thought you were asking if you thought that learning to social dance had an effect on competitive dancing, and I think it does. I think it's far easier to come in and learn competitive dancing than it is to switch from social to competitive. And this may be just me, but when I first started taking lessons, competition wasn't even a consideration. My teachers taught me how to do steps with a partner. So, I didn't really learn to follow, for one. I also developed some bad habits (which they taught), and had to spend time UNlearning them when I came to the studio I'm at now. It has been a process, for sure!

[DanceAm]

I think the only issue for me being a competitor is getting lazy in a social dance and not thinking about my frame or technique. Dancing with beginners or those social dancers that never really work on technique shouldn't bother me. It is my job to make sure I lead my best and maintain a good frame. But I do find myself getting lazy because it does take some extra effort think about it with other than my regular partner.

My partner can suffer as well because I sometimes overlead her because I get so used to guiding a social dance partner through moves that are less familier to her. I have heard pros discuss this and how important it is to adjust for the pro/am partner and back to their pro partner again.

But none of this is meant to be insulting, and I am sure that this may be the reason competitors don't social dance. But the point someone made before, it IS important to remember that dancing is fun, and social dance should remind us of that.

Does anyone have a woman's perspective?

[mamboqueen]

Well, I think it can be more difficult for women because many men who dance strictly socially don't get the extra technique and styling as competitive dancers do (this is just from my experience). Since I spend most of the time at the studio dancing with my teacher, I do get a little spoiled with his lead; it makes it tough to follow those with a weaker lead. I danced with a guy, and I love him to pieces, with a horrible lead. His right arm was in a collapsed position most of the time. Another newbie kept too large a distance from me in swing causing our arms to be pretty much straight (and I fought it tooth and nail!) But, I love to dance, so I'll dance with anyone who pretty much doesn't injure me (and I've had one of those -- caused me pretty bad back pain).

[spatten]

As I see it, social dancing has the opportunity to both improve and exaccerabte problems with your competitive dancing.

If you are sloppy with your frame, your muscles will do their job, memorize, and it will creep into competitive dancing.

If on the other hand, you work on widening your frame, fixing your head,etc.etc it is good pratice - so why not use it. You may not be alble to develop a good connection in Standard, but I think you can still improve other aspects.

I think Latin dance allows you to keep most of your competitve technique while social dancing. So it is even less of a problem in Latin.

Scott

[msc]

But the point someone made before, it IS important to remember that dancing is fun, and social dance should remind us of that.

If it's no longer fun for an indidvidual, is it then permissable to give up social ballroom?

[pygmalion]

Only if I'm not in town, msc. When I head out to Cali, I expect you to save me a dance. :wink: :lol:

Just kidding. I hope that, by the time I get there, I'll be prepared to dance with you on a reasonable level. 8)

[tasche]

I dont social dance much before as the ppl in this area are sometimes a little bit well mean. At least the ones I run into

[SDsalsaguy]

But the point someone made before, it IS important to remember that dancing is fun, and social dance should remind us of that.
If it's no longer fun for an indidvidual, is it then permissable to give up social ballroom?
The question this brings to my mind msc, is if it is the social dancing that is no longer fun or, rather, the partners available at social dances who no longer count as "fun" once someone reaches a certain point.*


*And let's be honest here, you wouldn't expect a world champion to find it fun to dance with a beginer, at least not on dancing grounds alone... so, basically, this dynamic is a given (even if when it does--or "should"--kick in is open to debate).

[etchuck]

Well, okay... I took a private yesterday (alone, no other dance partner this time). Essentially there are certain things that I cannot practice with my showmanship/expressiveness in the social floor. Certain techniques that I want to practice, I have to be sure I can dance/practice with individuals who are at a particular level of talent. Sure I want to enjoy myself when I'm socially dancing, but I guess there is a point where my desire to interpret the characteristic of the dance "properly" will conflict.

[mamboqueen]

Yes, etchuck, you are right on that point. If you went to a social dance and did your competitive "look", half the crowd would be commenting on your good form and the other half would say your showing off. I know this because when I just did social dancing, there would be the occasional couple who was just clearly "different". They pretty much hogged the floor and when they bumped into people, didn't give it a second thought (I'm not suggesting this is inherently a competitive dance "thing"; obviously rudeness is not taught as part of your lesson!). And to try to give some expression for the purpose of praciticing probably will make the person you're dancing with think you're trying to pick them up!

[borikensalsero]

Hey, can I join you guys in this competitive dance thingy thingy? I can't do a lick of ballroom though... I am dying to see this ballroom thing in real life, in TV, I don't get to see what I want to see!

[etchuck]

Shoot... in New York, especially around the City, you have tons of chances if you want to see ballroom competitions in action.

But you mean to tell me there aren't salsa competitions at the NY Salsa congress? It's a different type of styling because salsa isn't typified as much with long lines as many ballroom dances, but still, it's just a different "attitude" of dancing, I guess.

[msc]

No problem, Jenn.

SDSalsa-
The strange thing is, I think both WCS and Salsa are a lot of fun regardless of the levels of the two dancers. Something about dancing in a slot from an open position makes the lead and follow much more tractable. If you want to dance flat, fine. If you want to use body action, that's fine too. As long as you can remember 10-20 or so moves, you're in pretty good shape. Plus, while people might bump every now and then, you don't have to worry about clobbering someone if you get a head of steam and they suddenly decide to back against LOD.

[tsb]

Since I'm not in the ballroom scene I'd love to know, is there much social dancing other than studio parties?

here most ballroom venues are tied to studios/instructors but i do have friends who rent studio space just to dj a dance night of their own - where else are you going to find a decent dance floor that you can rent for a decent price? also, if you had a club with a decent floor and also had a liquor license, you'd have to have a special affinity for ballroom because you could make more money on liquor sales catering to a different sort of crowd.

[tsb]

I dont social dance much before as the ppl in this area are sometimes a little bit well mean. At least the ones I run into

hmm. i find it's the competitive dancers who are running into me (if i don't move my partner out of the way quickly enough i end up interposing my body and taking the hit).

[tsb]

But the point someone made before, it IS important to remember that dancing is fun, and social dance should remind us of that.
If it's no longer fun for an indidvidual, is it then permissable to give up social ballroom?
The question this brings to my mind msc, is if it is the social dancing that is no longer fun or, rather, the partners available at social dances who no longer count as "fun" once someone reaches a certain point.*

*And let's be honest here, you wouldn't expect a world champion to find it fun to dance with a beginer, at least not on dancing grounds alone... so, basically, this dynamic is a given (even if when it does--or "should"--kick in is open to debate).

traditional dance etiquette suggests that in a social setting one should make a reasonable attempt to dance with everyone. one of the underlying assumptions has been that one wishes to avoid giving offense to others - and that we are concerned with the consequences of giving offense. i think this mattered more when social dances were more 'invitation only' in times past. if one is prepared by the potential consequences of neglecting to dance with certain people then they are free to dance with only whom they choose.

i have a friend for whom competition holds no interest but as he dances primarily international style he prefers to dance with only a few select partners when he dances ballroom (like me he also does swing/lindy, WCS, AT, etc.) as it takes much more effort to accomodate varied partners dancing international style in a closed position (effort that generally detracts from enjoying the dance as each person has unique balance points, etc.).

i choose to be more selective when i'm out social dancing (& not working, which generally involves dancing w/beginner level dancers). that does risk giving the impression i'm some sort of snob, but i can live with the consequences of that (i don't teach any large group classes regularly). and as those who observe dance etiquette understand that it's bad form to ask a more advanced dancer for more than maybe one dance in any given night they recognize that i have as much right to seek a good time dancing as they do - i don't perceive much bad feeling as i still socialize quite a bit with everyone off the floor, i accept all invitations to dance & they get all of me for that 3 minutes, & i seem to get greeted rather warmly.

[spatten]

traditional dance etiquette suggests that in a social setting one should make a reasonable attempt to dance with everyone

I can't say I have ever heard of this being a tradtionally espoused ideal for dances. While I don't disagree with the idea, I am just not sure that there is any historical backing for the idea.

I do consider it proper etiquette not to turn someone down for a dance except for extreme circumstances. A quality which I have recently found lacking at various Salsa Clubs in my area, but hardly ever at a ballrom dance.

[tsb]

traditional dance etiquette suggests that in a social setting one should make a reasonable attempt to dance with everyone

I can't say I have ever heard of this being a tradtionally espoused ideal for dances. While I don't disagree with the idea, I am just not sure that there is any historical backing for the idea.


try googling dance etiquette and looking at the content. some sites may not state it explicitly, but every site will suggest that declining dances is to be avoided to the extreme (except when choosing to avoid an unpleasant experience) and that the monopolizing of partners is also to be avoided.

i've heard it posited that in times past when social dances were 'invitation only' type balls and parties, a consequence of boorish behavior was not be invited to subsequent events. i can't claim it to be accurate but it does make sense to me.


I do consider it proper etiquette not to turn someone down for a dance except for extreme circumstances. A quality which I have recently found lacking at various Salsa Clubs in my area, but hardly ever at a ballrom dance.

some might suggest that it also reflects a difference between dances that are euro if not anglo centric vs. a dance that is latin-centric in culture.
but i think that part of that stems from the likelihood that concepts of dance etiquette are also emphasized in formal ballroom instruction. but the salsa crowd also encompasses a street dancer segment (and maybe even an instructor segment) where dance etiquette may not ever be emphasized. there are plenty of respected salsa dancers & teachers who do emphasize and call for the practice of courtesy so while it may take some time yet, i do expect & hope for things to change in that regard...

[Josh]

Anyone care to update this old thread with a fresh 2007 perspective? :-)

Any perspectives on striking a good balance would really help me out. Personally, I love to social dance but as I am a coach, knowing how to switch my dancing for different situations is something I do anyway, but sometimes my students are not able to switch so easily. I want to maximize my competitive students' level of competitive dancing, while also allowing them to social dance, as it's the reason many of them started anyway.

I would especially love to hear from competitive amateurs who either social dance or don't, their reasons for doing so, and how their approach has worked for them so far.

[rjcbear]

Josh,

The Bride and I love to social dance and one thing that it has help me with is learning how to go in and out traffic in the dance floor. IHO in the social dances there are a lot of pre-bronze or beginner bronze dancers that do not have good floor management.

One way that has help us to get ready for competitions is I as a leader will have to make changes and add turns or some other steps due to the presence of a couple in the line of dance that it was not there a second before, dance around them and go back into the routine we were dancing.

[etp777]

I agree, social dancing has definitely helped my floorcraft. Also, since I don' thave regular partner for social dancing, helps my lead too. Take parties at the studio, I'll dance with 10 or 15 people, of those 10 people, only three (my pro, buddy teacher, and one follow who I take a lot of group lessons with) know my lead well, so even when I'm being lazy, can figure out what I mean. But that means I have 7 othter follows that I have to work with, and learn their quirks, and firm up my lead to make sure they can follow. Especially now that I have gotten to point where I'm more advanced than most (but certainly not all :) ) of dancers who show up to our parties.

[Josh]

Good point guys, I agree about the floorcraft--as I learned the ballroom dances in a non-social context, when I first danced social waltz I was faced with an entirely new set of challenges... like, walking off the floor with no broken bones :-)

As my students are all ladies, any perspectives from competitive ladies? (guys, keep the comments coming too!) Seems that a lady in a social situation, in general at least, is a bit more restricted in her movement and good technique that she can apply than a man would be.

Say one of my ladies takes her good smooth/standard training on staying left and good body contact and good use of the standing leg, and then dances for 2 hours with male leads who pull her over into the wrong space and take tiny steps, among other things. Is this enough of a reason to limit social dancing? That stuff is hard enough to remember to do in a lesson, with me talking about it for 2 hours. Add 2 hours of totally contradictory muscle memory, and it's a whole other level of problems--that's my concern.

[WorksForShoes]

From (this) follower's perspective, its a mixed bag. It is very helpful for DH to lead some of the segments of our comp routines socially, because I learn how to follow them out of sequence, how to shape them for floor or traffic reasons, and how to remain responsive to him even when I think I know what's coming. On the other hand, there is the danger, especially with another partner, of "pulling back" on the social floor in order to be polite, while the "comp version" of the step is not fully integrated into muscle memory. So, no big arm styling on the social floor, but then will I forget entirely on the comp floor?

I am trying to mentally have two different categories of dance. So, a "competition waltz" I'm focusing on leftward poise, good presence, proper foot technique, etc. For a "social waltz" I'm focusing on following the leader's lead, doing something reasonable that will allow the dance to continue when I can't, smiling happily (and hopefully enjoying), and counting it good as long as everyone walks off the dance floor in one piece.

[etp777]

I know friends who are pros definitely have to adjust their dancing with dancing with students like me. :) I don't know how much that effects them. As you said wiht yourself, they're used to adjsuting to that, not sure how amateurs do with that, since they're not adjsuting back and forth all day as a pro would be.

Trips me out though to see pros that I KNOW are way better than me, competing with one of their beginner students, and do rumba as quick-quick-quick-rest, rather than QQS (SQQ if you prefer arthur murray :) ).

[tangotime]

ALL accomplished dancers, shouldlearn to adapt to the situation at hand---- I flipped, flopped for yrs ( still do ) between social and Comp.dance . In all fairness, ladies may not have the same advantages .

Bottomline-- it could affect different people , in different ways , dependant upon their background and learning experiences .

[tanya_the_dancer]

Good point guys, I agree about the floorcraft--as I learned the ballroom dances in a non-social context, when I first danced social waltz I was faced with an entirely new set of challenges... like, walking off the floor with no broken bones :-)

As my students are all ladies, any perspectives from competitive ladies? (guys, keep the comments coming too!) Seems that a lady in a social situation, in general at least, is a bit more restricted in her movement and good technique that she can apply than a man would be.

Say one of my ladies takes her good smooth/standard training on staying left and good body contact and good use of the standing leg, and then dances for 2 hours with male leads who pull her over into the wrong space and take tiny steps, among other things. Is this enough of a reason to limit social dancing? That stuff is hard enough to remember to do in a lesson, with me talking about it for 2 hours. Add 2 hours of totally contradictory muscle memory, and it's a whole other level of problems--that's my concern.

I don't dance socially as much as I used to. I felt like I was picking up bad habits, and also, when I dance with taller guys and they lean forward on me, they hurt my shoulder (this is more of a problem in smooth and standard), and I felt that it was getting progressively worse. So, now when I go and dance socially, I tend to do more rhythm and latin, and I don't compete in those styles anyway.

[croaker]

I think competitions are fun.
Social dancing.... more often is not.

[danceronice]

I definitely prefer lessons and comps to social dancing. Not to say I don't have fun at social dances--but the best dances are with the pros (even when they're 'goofing off') or with the more advanced leaders. I'm trying to work very hard on proper frame and allignment and getting pulled out of it or having someone who isn't particularly great "teacher" try and teach me something, generally something that I don't really need to know, is REALLY not helpful or condusive to enjoying myself. (To all social-floor teacher wannabes, here's a tip gleaned from teaching grade schoolers--if someone doesn't want to be told how to do something, stop trying to tell them. Even with little kids, it just annoys the person you're trying to teach. Ironically--danced with a kid at a recent party--great lead.) There was one random figure someone leading me at a party insisted on showing me once, then using repeatedly. I showed it to [old pro] at my next lesson, and he kind of sighed and said "That's something from [chain studio], don't worry about it, you don't need to know it." At a party, I am REALLY not looking for tips/advice. If I want any of those, I go ask one of my pros to dance. I'm just out trying to be social because I don't really socialise much anywhere else.

[etp777]

Agreed danceronice. The fun dances at the parties dance wise, are with pros or one or two followers. The rest are fun from social aspect, i tend to keep steps simple, and just enjoy talkign to whomever I'm dancing with.

[fascination]

oddly enough, I am finding that lately it is helping both my confidence and my following skills as well as maintaining my position no matter what and picking some fundamentals to hold onto regardless of the situation...on balance I think it is helping more than hurting

[etp777]

I want to dance with fasc now, not rest of you ladies. She soudns less likely to make me feel bad about my lead. ;)

[biggestbox]

Social dancing can be fun (can also suck), but I usually throw out my competitive stuff. (I compete in open am, so that I could really kill my lady if I wanted to). I generally try to dance at the level of my lady, if she is just learning, I do syllabus. If the gals is an open level competitor, I find it more fun to play with the music and the character of the dance. Some of those salsa/bachata moves are fun too. If she is really newbie, I'll even charge my hold to make it more relaxed make myself easier to follow.

You definitely can't improve at a social dance, but you can't really get worse either, unless you are one of those people who in order to learn need to do one step one way.

If you want to see something ridiculous watch the end of idsf grand slam 2004 where the top amateurs switch partners for a jive and quickstep. Pretty awesome.

[croaker]

oddly enough, I am finding that lately it is helping both my confidence and my following skills as well as maintaining my position no matter what and picking some fundamentals to hold onto regardless of the situation...on balance I think it is helping more than hurting
It's helping, but is it fun ? :)
Or more like "that which does not kill me makes me stronger" ? :)

[fascination]

thnak you and FTR...i think anyone can get better anytime they want...regardless of the setting...one may have to pick wisely the skilll they wish to focus on..... but one can get better in a social setting

[fascination]

the OP didn't ask if it was fun...however...as long as one isn't trying to dance at champion level one can get better and have fun at the same time...not if one is expecting a lead that feels like some pro but if one has reasonable expectations and is going to both have fun and focus on a few do-able things

[croaker]

the OP didn't ask if it was fun...however...as long as one isn't trying to dance at champion level one can get better and have fun at the same time...not if one is expecting a lead that feels like some pro but if one has reasonable expectations and is going to both have fun and focus on a few do-able things
He probably didn't, I was just curious! :roll:
I find that I'm not good enough leader to be able to lead any girl I just met (and enjoy the process) and not enough of a beginner to just enjoy the novelty of it all.

[wooh]

It's about what you want out of the night. If you don't want to foxtrot unless it's the perfect standard foxtrot with a big frame in body contact... Well the foxtrot mixer probably isn't going to be fun for you.

[croaker]

It's about what you want out of the night. If you don't want to foxtrot unless it's the perfect standard foxtrot with a big frame in body contact... Well the foxtrot mixer probably isn't going to be fun for you.
Other than that, I keep deleting what I want to say, because as a social dancer (and a pretty good one if I say so myself), I'm just getting annoyed.
No, no, say it!
Why are you annoyed?

[etp777]

Wooh, if you disagree with what was said enough that it's annoying you, it's probably worth posting your feelings on it so we can learn from it. Please share.

[anp73ga31]

In our dance scene, most people are purely social dancers. So like Wooh said, if you want a great frame and comp-worthy dancing, you can really only get that at a social around here if you dance with one of the really good instructors. And they usually have sooo many ladies to dance with that you only get one dance a night, maybe two if you get really lucky. So in that respect I can't see it helping a competitive dancer at all. However, I think all competitive dancers should go to at least some socials to learn better floorcraft....navigating around lots of people who are paying little to no attention to you is a much needed skill and social dancing is just the place to learn it! Plus, it wouldnt hurt for the competitive dancers to dance with all different levels of people; it would help their lead/follow greatly. I danced with a competitive dancer at the last SRC who was fantastic during his choreographed routines, but when you took him away from his partner and their routine, he could barely lead the basics. I think competitive AND social dancers should BOTH cross over to the other side and see what its like...I think that knowing and appreciating both makes it a whole different ballgame :cool:

[fascination]

I echo the others wooh...just say it...

(uh...within reason)

[fascination]

three things I can practice with anyone and still have fun: foot pressure, following/responding, use of my center

[rjcbear]

three things I can practice with anyone and still have fun: foot pressure, following/responding, use of my center

I have to agree with Fasc on this 3 point completely. Specially the use of the center in the social scene as i will have to make sure my center is in the ladies center, too. This has help me so much in my leading.

On a side note I have found that my toes do not like the foot pressure that other social dancers put on them... :D

[croaker]

I danced with a competitive dancer at the last SRC who was fantastic during his choreographed routines, but when you took him away from his partner and their routine, he could barely lead the basics. I think competitive AND social dancers should BOTH cross over to the other side and see what its like...I think that knowing and appreciating both makes it a whole different ballgame :cool:
I can see your point, but if it's not one's game why should he be forced to do something
he doesn't enjoy?

[Terpsichorean Clod]

It's about what you want out of the night. If you don't want to foxtrot unless it's the perfect standard foxtrot with a big frame in body contact... Well the foxtrot mixer probably isn't going to be fun for you.
:said with a mixture of seriousness and humor: wooh, maybe you should start a new thread "Does competitive dance help or harm a social dancer?"

[samina]

:said with a mixture of seriousness and humor: wooh, maybe you should start a new thread "Does competitive dance help or harm a social dancer?"

LOL!

[wooh]

:said with a mixture of seriousness and humor: wooh, maybe you should start a new thread "Does competitive dance help or harm a social dancer?"

I think that's partly my annoyance. And I keep deleting what I want to say, because I don't want to a) get into a flame war or b) unfairly paint everyone with the same brush. It just seems too close to what pro/am vs am/am threads sometimes degenerate into. So I'll just say how I feel, and hopefully keep some modicum of tact.
There seems to be an element of superiority at times from competitive dancers, an assumption that all the dancers at the social are inferior to them and will ruin their technique. When I'm at a social and an obviously competitive dancer comes by, there are the occasions where ...gasp... my technique is better than their technique. Shocking, I know, that a mere social dancer like me could actually know a little technique.
Funny thing is, husband and I are pondering competing, on a very casual basis. He's not at all comptetitive, and I'm too competitive, so doing it more than casually could get dangerous. But it just seems like a fun chance to dance. But I don't want to "harm" my social dancing. It's bad enough I've got a regular partner and that we reinforce each other's bad habits. Add some competition prep in, and I won't be able to follow anyone.
I guess I just think that balance is good. And it's sad to me that there are folks that got into dancing to dance socially, but are afraid to ruin their competition technique. Practice your technique for an extra 30 minutes on the side, and go have 3 hours of fun. Believe me, a 3 minute foxtrot with this one little old man in Atlanta can make your week. Not because of his perfect technique, but because he'll spin you around and give you a big smile the whole time. Even if dancing with him really did leave a lasting impression on my frame, I'd hate to lose that just to place a spot higher at a comp.

[samina]

Believe me, a 3 minute foxtrot with this one little old man in Atlanta can make your week.

yep, well-said, wooh.

i really miss social ballroom... have vowed to bring that back in. it's just so delightful to mix... planning on going & just having fun while working on the bits i can work on.

[etp777]

Certainly a good point wooh, and part of reason i said that I am often better than dancers at our parties. there is a whole gropu of dancers at our studio who do not compete, only dance socially, just not at our parties, who are WAY better than I am. If I came off sounding like I was looking down on social dancers, didn't mean that at all. Sorry. :) Still trying to figure out where some of these ladies dance so I can go do my social dancing there and enjoy a dance wwith them, and probably learn a lot at same time. :)

[etp777]

I also think that part of reason for threads like this is not that anyone is saying that social dancers are worse (well, maybe some of us our, but I'm not ;) ), but that technique can be differnet. Again, not worse, different. :) I know our studio teaches different ECS for social vs comp (shuffle vs little little big). It's not about it being better, just different. or in social dancing, I'm more likely to dance salsa on1 vs the required on2 for our comps. I find it more comfortable, but it does make it harder for me when comps come around.

[croaker]

There seems to be an element of superiority at times from competitive dancers, an assumption that all the dancers at the social are inferior to them and will ruin their technique. When I'm at a social and an obviously competitive dancer comes by, there are the occasions where ...gasp... my technique is better than their technique. Shocking, I know, that a mere social dancer like me could actually know a little technique.
...............
I guess I just think that balance is good. And it's sad to me that there are folks that got into dancing to dance socially, but are afraid to ruin their competition technique. Practice your technique for an extra 30 minutes on the side, and go have 3 hours of fun. Believe me, a 3 minute foxtrot with this one little old man in Atlanta can make your week. Not because of his perfect technique, but because he'll spin you around and give you a big smile the whole time. Even if dancing with him really did leave a lasting impression on my frame, I'd hate to lose that just to place a spot higher at a comp.
"Better" or "worse" are such fleeting terms. They are hard to define; one admittedly imperfect way is by competing. But then you'd be a competitor, not "just a social dancer" :eek:
For me competition holds much more excitement than dancing socially with a whole ballroom full of little old men can ever bring and I feel sad that there're folks that got into dancing but don't experience the rush that going out on a dance floor in front of
the judges and the audience can bring :p

[Zhena]

For me competition holds much more excitement than dancing socially with a whole ballroom full of little old men can ever bring and I feel sad that there're folks that got into dancing but don't experience the rush that going out on a dance floor in front of
the judges and the audience can bring :p

Did you ever hear the phrase "different strokes for different folks"?

I went to a competition this weekend. Dancing in front of the judges and audience? Meh ... nervous-making, messed up steps that come perfectly naturally during a social ... not much fun.

But ... during the general dancing, a certain guy walked right in front of me at just the right moment for me to grab him without premeditation (If I had thought about it in advance, I probably wouldn't have done it:p). I had noticed him at previous competitions -- he is capable of contorting his body in ways I can't even hope to attempt, even though he's probably older than I am (and I'm no spring chicken), and he does some really cool moves. So we did a cha cha, and I followed him through almost everything he threw at me (I missed one, and then he toned it down a little), and I got such a rush. Woohoo! PARTNER dancing, making a connection -- that's what is fun for me. (And he politely thanked me at the end of the dance ... he may have enjoyed it too ... I hope.)

[DancinAnne]

Did you ever hear the phrase "different strokes for different folks"?

I went to a competition this weekend. Dancing in front of the judges and audience? Meh ... nervous-making, messed up steps that come perfectly naturally during a social ... not much fun.

But ... during the general dancing, a certain guy walked right in front of me at just the right moment for me to grab him without premeditation (If I had thought about it in advance, I probably wouldn't have done it:p). I had noticed him at previous competitions -- he is capable of contorting his body in ways I can't even hope to attempt, even though he's probably older than I am (and I'm no spring chicken), and he does some really cool moves. So we did a cha cha, and I followed him through almost everything he threw at me (I missed one, and then he toned it down a little), and I got such a rush. Woohoo! PARTNER dancing, making a connection -- that's what is fun for me. (And he politely thanked me at the end of the dance ... he may have enjoyed it too ... I hope.)

I enjoy competition dancing. And social dancing. Both have lots to offer. I think social dancing offers a true test of one's following (and leading) skills.

To Croaker, I just want to say that not all dances are full of 'little old men.' And furthermore, some of those 'little old men' can move quite nicely.

[Nik]

Social dancing helps out greatly. Unless you stop practicing and go to only social dance parties, it actually helps at the next day's practice session.

I enjoy social dancing greatly and go out almost every week to some kind of social/club dancing event.

[waltzgirl]

IME, there is a certain stage (somewhere around "advanced beginner") that switching back and forth from competitive-style dancing in lessons and social dancing can be confusing and probably does slow down competitive progress a bit. But it's just a phase that will pass when the student develops the ability to switch from one style of dancing to the other. Unless the *only* thing a student ever wants to do is dance competitively with a single partner, I would not recommend trying to limit the social dancing students do. For most people, social dancing is an important part of why they dance in the first place. However, I don't social dance between my last lesson and a competition, to make sure I stay firmly in comp mode for the comp.

Josh, you can always do what my pro does; show up at (nearly) every studio social and dance competition-style (adapted for space and traffic, of course) with your students. Give them the best of both worlds!

[etp777]

Woohoo! PARTNER dancing, making a connection -- that's what is fun for me.

AMEN!

[croaker]

To Croaker, I just want to say that not all dances are full of 'little old men.' And furthermore, some of those 'little old men' can move quite nicely.
I never said that they (dances) are, or that they (old men) can't.
I just said that for me, personally, social dances don't rock my boat, however nicely
little old men can move.
Your mileage may vary :p

[elisedance]

I love competition dancing but the danger - as has probably been raised in the stone ages of this thread (which I did not read) - is that when working with one partner you learn to dance with that person and lead/follow specialized to that one person. In my opinion, only by varying your partners can you keep up your skills as a dancer rather than as a competitor - and thats where social dancing comes in. Of course, to some that may not be important.

[meow]

When my son started dancing at a very early age, he did a medal class and not the kids social afterwards. I don't know why but he just didn't. Later when he partnered up for competitive dancing I was told that not doing the social had been good for his overall dancing. Appartently, it was better to dance 'properly' all the time and in socials dancing tends to be sloppier. Why, I can only guess but that is what I was told by high level teacher/coaches.

[newdancer113]

I've been dancing for a little over 2 years now, and getting more interested in competition...and I'm finding that dancing socially isn't as much fun. There are students who I have passed in ability. I used to enjoy dancing with these guys but now not as much any more. I find it hard to practice good technique when my partner is sloppy (eg accenting 1 in cha cha...hard to do when the leader isn't doing it). Many of the social dancers merely walk though the dance, rather than dancing it. My teacher encourages me to continue to go to the studio practice parties to practice good technique...but unless I'm dancing with a teacher or advanced student who is trying to practice good technique as well (rare in the male population around here) I just can't seem to do it. Maybe it's me, I don't know. But I feel like the social dancing is holding me back from developing better technique.

[fascination]

"Better" or "worse" are such fleeting terms. They are hard to define; one admittedly imperfect way is by competing. But then you'd be a competitor, not "just a social dancer" :eek:
For me competition holds much more excitement than dancing socially with a whole ballroom full of little old men can ever bring and I feel sad that there're folks that got into dancing but don't experience the rush that going out on a dance floor in front of
the judges and the audience can bring :p
lol, I far prefer the audience at a social than the judges or an audience at a comp...and I too find that social dancing reminds me of why I dance and gives me a place to hone skills that I don't work on with pro...also gives me a chance to not always be the less experienced dancer

[evanluck]

I am one of the few dedicated competitive dancers who consistently show up to social dances in our area.

One way it has benefited my competitive dancing is winning Jack and Jill competitions ;).

But in all seriousness, I think approaching social dancing with the mindset to "practice" anything is a mistake. You're not practicing...you're social dancing. The goal is not to work on your dancing, it is to connect with the music and the person you are dancing with.

If you want to work on your dancing with a partner, find a competitive or practice partner or pay an instructor, but don't subject people who are there to have a good time to your "practicing." It will only frustrate both of you. Believe me I speak from experience.

I think the big disconnect comes when people first start to get serious about their dancing and they think that socials are a good place to "work on their stuff." So they pick some person and expect them to be some interactive dance android, that can be wholly cooperative while they "work on" their cuban motion or frame or swing/sway. Then they get this rude awakening when the person that they picked expects for you to be present during the dance, not in your head thinking about your head position or foot pressure. Then they begin to formulate this opinion that all social dancers are out to destroy their competitive technique. At least this is what happened to me.

What bums me out about ballroom dancing is that because the ballroom ideal is the world class competitive dancesport athlete, there is this talent drain that happens to the social ballroom dancing scene. Every time someone wants to get serious about improving, they begin to prepare for competition and invariably disappear from the social dance scene. From what I've seen this does not happen in dance genres that stay more grounded to their social roots (ie salsa, west coast, argentine tango, lindy). Whenever I go and participate in social dancing for any of these specialized genres there are always a number of dancers who really are fantastic to watch dance. This is much less common in social ballroom. The social ballroom scene from a talent standpoint is relatively stagnant.

However I have a hand full of friends to compete in all different ballroom genres and are also great social dancers. Whenever I twist their arm and get them to show up to a social, everyone always has a great time. What's not to like about improvisational lead and follow dancing with someone who is near or above your talent level.

So when is the next DF social? We should pick a few comps every year that all the DFers go to and get a studio in the area or the hotel to host a social.

Who's with me :D

[elisedance]

I've been dancing for a little over 2 years now, and getting more interested in competition...and I'm finding that dancing socially isn't as much fun. There are students who I have passed in ability. I used to enjoy dancing with these guys but now not as much any more. I find it hard to practice good technique when my partner is sloppy (eg accenting 1 in cha cha...hard to do when the leader isn't doing it). Many of the social dancers merely walk though the dance, rather than dancing it. My teacher encourages me to continue to go to the studio practice parties to practice good technique...but unless I'm dancing with a teacher or advanced student who is trying to practice good technique as well (rare in the male population around here) I just can't seem to do it. Maybe it's me, I don't know. But I feel like the social dancing is holding me back from developing better technique.

I think you need to read your own last sentence! Sounds like it says it all. Perhaps you are more talented or maybe more driven to succeed or more engaged, who knows. But I think you are aware that if you are going to keep happy at this you will have to take it to another level - and that usually is to really focus on technique. Of course, a lot depends on your resources but its up to you to take the next step. If you look around here you will find a lot of threads on selecting teachers and studios - look into a lot of possibilities before committing yourself to any particular teacher/studio/plan.

Good luck - and keep us updated on how it goes.

[elisedance]

So when is the next DF social? We should pick a few comps every year that all the DFers go to and get a studio in the area or the hotel to host a social.

Who's with me :D

Hi evanluck - we have been toying with just that idea - trying to have a social of some sort at the Ohio State Ball where some of the DFers could meet - and there has been quite a bit of interest. Take a look at the current OSB thread. Its just an idea at this point and not certainly not endorsed by DF though this might be an idea too.

[anp73ga31]

So when is the next DF social? We should pick a few comps every year that all the DFers go to and get a studio in the area or the hotel to host a social.

Who's with me :D

sounds like fun...though I would inevitably be nervous because alot of ya'll are so much better than me!! lol! ;)

[etp777]

You don't have any picture up here anp, you could lie and pretend you were someone else and only admit who you are if someone compliments your dancing. :)

[wooh]

But in all seriousness, I think approaching social dancing with the mindset to "practice" anything is a mistake. You're not practicing...you're social dancing. The goal is not to work on your dancing, it is to connect with the music and the person you are dancing with.

If you want to work on your dancing with a partner, find a competitive or practice partner or pay an instructor, but don't subject people who are there to have a good time to your "practicing." It will only frustrate both of you. Believe me I speak from experience.

Very good points.:)

[anp73ga31]

You don't have any picture up here anp, you could lie and pretend you were someone else and only admit who you are if someone compliments your dancing. :)

ha ha! good idea!

incidentally, i did have a picture up once, or rather, i thought i did...wonder what happened to it...will have to look into that...

see edit below...

[fascination]

practicing and social dancing aren't(IMo) mutually exclusive depending upon what one is doing...while one shouldn't subject a social partner to some of the more extreme aspects of competitive dance...it seems to me that a social partner benefits greatly when I provide enough CBM for them to make a better rotation even if they didn't know it...or if I used a good deal of foot pressure to control some timing and balance...admittedly, many folks who don't compete possess these skills as well and use them...and practicing them at a social is hardly subjecting the partner to anything but pleasure

[Josh]

If you want to work on your dancing with a partner, find a competitive or practice partner or pay an instructor, but don't subject people who are there to have a good time to your "practicing." It will only frustrate both of you. Believe me I speak from experience.

I think the big disconnect comes when people first start to get serious about their dancing and they think that socials are a good place to "work on their stuff." So they pick some person and expect them to be some interactive dance android, that can be wholly cooperative while they "work on" their cuban motion or frame or swing/sway. Then they get this rude awakening when the person that they picked expects for you to be present during the dance, not in your head thinking about your head position or foot pressure. Then they begin to formulate this opinion that all social dancers are out to destroy their competitive technique. At least this is what happened to me.

What bums me out about ballroom dancing is that because the ballroom ideal is the world class competitive dancesport athlete, there is this talent drain that happens to the social ballroom dancing scene. Every time someone wants to get serious about improving, they begin to prepare for competition and invariably disappear from the social dance scene. From what I've seen this does not happen in dance genres that stay more grounded to their social roots (ie salsa, west coast, argentine tango, lindy). Whenever I go and participate in social dancing for any of these specialized genres there are always a number of dancers who really are fantastic to watch dance. This is much less common in social ballroom. The social ballroom scene from a talent standpoint is relatively stagnant.


(see the sentences I bolded above for references I'm making below)

Thanks for your comments evan, I appreciate the feedback!

If I may respond to your thoughts--with regard to a student "practicing" at a social. Well, IMHO, one must realize that a good social time is different for different people. Sorry, but during a waltz I'd much prefer a lady who keeps her head out of my space to one who's got it in my face trying to talk to me! :-) This isn't meant to sound rude, but when I'm dancing, I dance, and when I'm talking, I talk. A little chit chat in the ear is fine, don't get me wrong--but if I wanted to talk about life, I'd be much more comfortable sitting at a table with a martini or glass of wine or scotch (okay, or water if I'm just thirsty hehe). To me, a lady who is "present," as you say, is one who's concerned with how she is dancing, as this will have a direct effect on how I enjoy the dance, and will likely determine the frequency of our future dances.

Now, I'll say that I would consider it rude for a student to pick someone solely to be a body for them to work on their technique alongside. That's not cool. But, I would strongly prefer my students to at least be cognizant of their technique while social dancing.

With respect to the social dances you mention like salsa and lindy, perhaps the reason they stay grounded to their social roots is because there's really nowhere for them to go? These are not competitive dances, except for little competitions that are few and far between. Where else would good dancers from these genres go?

[evanluck]

To me, a lady who is "present," as you say, is one who's concerned with how she is dancing, as this will have a direct effect on how I enjoy the dance, and will likely determine the frequency of our future dances.


I would agree with this statement but this lady is not "practicing" per say, she is dancing to the best of her ability so she and you can have a more enjoyable time social dancing. If she were "practicing" she wouldn't be concerned with your enjoyment just the improvement of her dance skill. It might seem like semantics or splitting hairs but I think the change in perception (practicing versus social dancing) makes a big difference in how both people will enjoy the dance.

With respect to the social dances you mention like salsa and lindy, perhaps the reason they stay grounded to their social roots is because there's really nowhere for them to go? These are not competitive dances, except for little competitions that are few and far between. Where else would good dancers from these genres go?


Well some of these genres have fairly robust competitive scenes. Granted none of them are close to ballroom but West Coast Swing and Salsa both have national championships and have couples who travel the country and the world competing. The difference is that both of these genres seem to be more connected to their roots.

A big part of West Coast Swing competitions are the Jack and Jill events where couples are paired up at random and do lead and follow.

How awesome would this be to see world class ballroom couples do this? Would they even be any good at it? If they wouldn't be, isn't their something wrong with that?

I think improvisational lead and follow is an essential aspect of any partner dancing and it seems odd that it is almost entirely absent from competitive ballroom dancing. The chasm that exists between competitive ballroom dancers and social ballroom dancers hurts both communities and it occurs not because of irreconcilable differences but because of misunderstanding.

[Joe]

I definitely prefer lessons and comps to social dancing.
You're probably a dance snob. :p

When you're social dancing, you aren't able to dance solely with the good dancers.

[Peaches]

I find this whole discussion kind of interesting, particularly after the big AT to-do I went to a couple of weekends ago.

One thing that was stressed--by every teacher, multiple times--is that the way to get better is to dance with as many people as possible. Always, there was the reccomendation that if you want to get better then you go out social dancing more often, and dance with as many people as possible. The idea that dancing with someone whose technique is not as good (or good at all) is regarded as a challenge, and a reason that you've got to be that much better to be able to cope, and the very reason to improve.

Also, there was the constant reminder that AT is about social dancing (which could be the reason for the difference), and that it's our responsibility as half of a partnership to find a way to make that partnership work for the set. End of story. If you've got to compromise technique to make it work, then that's what you do. It's not seen as so much of a negative thing, but a valued ability to adapt and respond and follow/lead under less-than-ideal circumstances.

It's just such a different mindset. It's interesting.

[fascination]

on the lighter side, but relevant to this subject...last night I went to an intl VW group lesson..(poorly attended) ...so when the instructor and the one other couple were gasping for air halfway through the class, i noticied that one of the other instructors was actually teaching someone the "bustop" which I don't know and so the instructor who was teaching the class suggested we all take a breather by teaching me the bustop...so hey, there's a place for everything...intl VW and bus stop

[Angelo]

There was the constant reminder that AT is about social dancing (which could be the reason for the difference), and that it's our responsibility as half of a partnership to find a way to make that partnership work for the set. End of story. If you've got to compromise technique to make it work, then that's what you do. It's not seen as so much of a negative thing, but a valued ability to adapt and respond and follow/lead under less-than-ideal circumstances.

It's just such a different mindset. It's interesting.

Interesting indeed. Maybe dancesport needs some jack and jill events to allow more of this mindset to grow into the competitor population

[Joe]

Waltz Tango Foxtrot is "the bus stop?"

[fascination]

a very goofy line dance...which I had never heard of before last night

[samina]

from the 70s?

[fascination]

correct...but apparently back in w/ the youngins

[croaker]

A big part of West Coast Swing competitions are the Jack and Jill events where couples are paired up at random and do lead and follow.

How awesome would this be to see world class ballroom couples do this? Would they even be any good at it? If they wouldn't be, isn't their something wrong with that?

I think improvisational lead and follow is an essential aspect of any partner dancing and it seems odd that it is almost entirely absent from competitive ballroom dancing. The chasm that exists between competitive ballroom dancers and social ballroom dancers hurts both communities and it occurs not because of irreconcilable differences but because of misunderstanding.
I thought this topic was beaten to death in another thread. Why goofy antics
of "improvisational lead" could ever be deemed more interesting than professionally choreographed dance performance of a top couple is quite beyond me.
I don't see anything wrong that the former is absent from a high level competition.

[evanluck]

I thought this topic was beaten to death in another thread. Why goofy antics
of "improvisational lead" could ever be deemed more interesting than professionally choreographed dance performance of a top couple is quite beyond me.
I don't see anything wrong that the former is absent from a high level competition.

Dancing is about expressing the music...when the dancing is improvised the couple is more likely to be paying close attention to the music and a highly skilled couple truly expressing the music is quite a delight to watch. When the emphasis is choreography the performances can often lack musicality. Just look at the latin competition at Blackpool. Not one single couple in that world class final is actually expressing the music that is being played by that band.

Also, by comparing the "goofy antics" of a social dance couple to the professionally choreographed dance performance of a world class couple you are not comparing apples to apples. I heard in Europe that there are competitions where high level couples improvise show dance type routines to different songs. The only constant is the length of the song. A friend of mine who is a open amateur standard finalist in the U.S. says the performances are absolutely breathtaking.

[croaker]

Dancing is about expressing the music...when the dancing is improvised the couple is more likely to be paying close attention to the music and a highly skilled couple truly expressing the music is quite a delight to watch. When the emphasis is choreography the performances can often lack musicality. Just look at the latin competition at Blackpool. Not one single couple in that world class final is actually expressing the music that is being played by that band.

Also, by comparing the "goofy antics" of a social dance couple to the professionally choreographed dance performance of a world class couple you are not comparing apples to apples. I heard in Europe that there are competitions where high level couples improvise show dance type routines to different songs. The only constant is the length of the song. A friend of mine who is a open amateur standard finalist in the U.S. says the performances are absolutely breathtaking.
Dancing is about creating a beautiful performance that people will want to watch.
And I've seen beautiful routines that have been choreographed and practiced
to crystal clear clarity that no on-the-spot created muck-up can touch.
If I have to pay $50+ to see a dance competition it's better not be random Jack-n-Jill. No offense.

[fascination]

then again your definition of what dance is about is yours, not THE objective definition...while there is a strong performance aspect to competitive dance, and social dance for some folks...when I am dancing with someone with whom I truly wish to dance...it has NOTHING to do with performance and everything to do with relationship....

[etp777]

Completely agree fasc. Whether I'm dancing with pro at comp (or just socially), or dancing with a friend out wherever, or some random stranger, it's the connection and relationship (as close or remote as it iss, depending on the dance partner) that makes dance great. Bah, want to go dance now. Boss might frown upon me leaving though. :)

[fascination]

yea...I have the day off today...pro is playing in the dirt (garden)...and I am so missing it

[evanluck]

Dancing is about creating a beautiful performance that people will want to watch.
And I've seen beautiful routines that have been choreographed and practiced
to crystal clear clarity that no on-the-spot created muck-up can touch.
If I have to pay $50+ to see a dance competition it's better not be random Jack-n-Jill. No offense.

I guess I'm just a bit puzzled by inconsistencies in the competitive dancesport format. If it's about crystal clear choreographed movement, then why the random songs, why the other couples on the floor at the same time?

Also to assume that improvised performances are not worthwhile to watch is a generalization. It may take a different skill set but improvisational comedy and acting are both crafts that have been studied extensively and marketed effectively.

I personally am as big a dance snob as anyone but have always been mesmerized by very high quality club salsa and west coast swing dancers. The quality of connection and musicality that they display is worth watching and I just wish more of those qualities translated to competitive ballroom dancing. Of course there are top couples that are successful at displaying these characteristics but these couples seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

When an activity becomes too detached from its roots it risks becoming a caricature. Lamentably, I think this is where competitive dancesport is headed

[etp777]

Was supposed to have a group today, but after finding out that bank screwed this check to studio up for some reason (still trying to find out why), staying out of studio until I can get it fixed, which means I have to wait until I get paid tomorrow, as while check should have cleaered then, now there ISN"T the money for it. :)

[croaker]

when I am dancing with someone with whom I truly wish to dance...it has NOTHING to do with performance and everything to do with relationship....
At a competition ??? :shock:

[croaker]

I guess I'm just a bit puzzled by inconsistencies in the competitive dancesport format. If it's about crystal clear choreographed movement, then why the random songs, why the other couples on the floor at the same time?

Also to assume that improvised performances are not worthwhile to watch is a generalization. It may take a different skill set but improvisational comedy and acting are both crafts that have been studied extensively and marketed effectively.

I personally am as big a dance snob as anyone but have always been mesmerized by very high quality club salsa and west coast swing dancers. The quality of connection and musicality that they display is worth watching and I just wish more of those qualities translated to competitive ballroom dancing. Of course there are top couples that are successful at displaying these characteristics but these couples seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

When an activity becomes too detached from its roots it risks becoming a caricature. Lamentably, I think this is where competitive dancesport is headed
Well, you ever see anyone "improvising" something like this in a club please let me know -
http://youtube.com/watch?v=aHywBuK49Mc


As for "connecting to the roots" - I never understood this sentiment. The original
roots of ballroom/latin dancing might be very humble, but the style has gone through
decades of development by some ridiculously talented dancers. The original
"street" dancers did not and would not dance like that because they couldn't,
to paraphrase Nigel of the "So you think you can dance" fame.

[wooh]

a very goofy line dance...which I had never heard of before last night

A version of it is the line dance they do in Saturday Night Fever.:D

[evanluck]

Well, you ever see anyone "improvising" something like this in a club please let me know -
http://youtube.com/watch?v=aHywBuK49Mc


No but that is a choreographed competitive routine...

To me this is just as compelling, more connected, and more musical...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7qEyMLbYMp0

That is an improvised Jack and Jill event...

There are moments in that dance that you can never ever duplicate. The quality of movement may be less than the competitive version of the dancing but their connection and spontaneity more than make up for it.

I personally find the the Jack and Jill video with Benji and Tatianna much more appealing.

Thank you for posting that video clip because I think that this illustrates my point exactly. There are high level competitive West Coast dancers who work on and develop their skills in improvisational lead and follow and are able to produce very compelling dances with a number of different partners. These skills are as worthwhile as being able to do technically perfect rhumba walks. Competitive ballroom could use some of this flavor...

[wooh]

If I wanted to ALL be about performance, I'd do a solo form of dance. I do partner dancing because I want it to at least partially be about the relationship. The two people working to create something better than either can create on their own (2+2=5).

[Peaches]

Or 1+1=1, is another way of thinking about it...

[reb]

A big problem . . . many people drill a point until it becomes a 1-dimensional discussion devoid of context and/or things become an all-or-nothing argument.

We're dealing with something complex and full of 'multi-dichotomies' -trying to imply here than several things may all be true - and yet opposing - at the same time (great hiring technique btw - see how well a person can handle a dichotomy . . .)

If it's about crystal clear choreographed movement, then why the random songs, why the other couples on the floor at the same time?extensively and marketed effectively.

It's not about choreography - its about the best talent with the challenges of random songs and other couples thrown in . . . choreography is one method couples use to put their best out on the floor.

have always been mesmerized by very high quality club salsa and west coast swing dancers. The quality of connection and musicality that they display is worth watching and I just wish more of those qualities translated to competitive ballroom dancing.


I too admire these dancers!

At the same time, their goodness does not lessen my admiration for competitive dancers - yet some say tomatoe and some say tomatoe (gotta say that one out loud for proper effect!).

True in so many (every?) other realms of life - one of my favorites is basketball where high caliber pick-up street ball can be poetry in motion (with its own lead and follow) - whereas I'm bored out of my skull with almost all NBA.

[fascination]

At a competition ??? :shock:
if the relationship is there ...there is no need to perform...but no, I wasn't restricting my comment to one venue or another...if two people genuinely click their energy is visable....I while I can't brag on my dancing, my emoting is genuine...be assured

[croaker]

No but that is a choreographed competitive routine...
Precisely!

To me this is just as compelling, more connected, and more musical...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7qEyMLbYMp0

It's cute, but "more connected, and more musical" ??? You must be joking.


There are moments in that dance that you can never ever duplicate.
That's the beauty of watching live people perform. Same as going to a theater
to watch a live performance.

I personally find the the Jack and Jill video with Benji and Tatianna much more appealing.
To each his/her own. As for me, she clearly looked lost quite a few times.


Thank you for posting that video clip because I think that this illustrates my point exactly. There are high level competitive West Coast dancers who work on and develop their skills in improvisational lead and follow and are able to produce very compelling dances with a number of different partners.
What are you talking about, Benji and Heidi worked on the routine I posted for years,
what "improvisational skills" are you seeing there ???

[evanluck]

At the same time, their goodness does not lessen my admiration for competitve dancers - yet some say tomatoe and some say tomatoe (gotta say that one out loud for proper effect!).

True in so many (every?) other realms of life - one of my favorites is basketball where high quality pick-up street ball can be poetry in motion - whereas I'm bored out of my skull with almost all NBA.

I agree...I have a great amount of admiration for competitive dancers. I just wish there was a competitive ballroom format where musicality and connection were the primary focus. Connection or relationship is what makes partner dancing unique. I feel like if the competitive dancers are out there representing the genre as a whole they should be mindful of what makes the genre unique.

I feel that the current format or at least the current trend emphasizes technical quality of movement and athleticism...two things that are not unique to partner dancing.

[croaker]

if the relationship is there ...there is no need to perform...but no, I wasn't restricting my comment to one venue or another...if two people genuinely click their energy is visable....I while I can't brag on my dancing, my emoting is genuine...be assured
great, we don't need to practice anymore, or pay $$$ for the lessons!
Wait, I'll tell my partner the good news. All we need is relationship.

[evanluck]

What are you talking about, Benji and Heidi worked on the routine I posted for years,
what "improvisational skills" are you seeing there ???

You misunderstood...I was saying that your posting of the Benji and Heidi video allowed me to make an more apples to apples comparison where high level dancers and in this case the same dancer (Benji) was seen doing a competitive routine and doing a competitve event that was improvised.

As strongly as you prefer the first, I prefer the second so I guess well just agree to disagree :D

So long as you acknowledge that my preference is better than yours ;) LOL!

[fascination]

great, we don't need to practice anymore, or pay $$$ for the lessons!
Wait, I'll tell my partner the good news. All we need is relationship.you know you can be as cocky as you like...I really don't need you to agree with me...I certainly didn't make any of the ridiculous claims you just ascribed to me ...but if you would like to establish this sort of dynamic...that is your perogative

[evanluck]

great, we don't need to practice anymore, or pay $$$ for the lessons!
Wait, I'll tell my partner the good news. All we need is relationship.

Believe me if you progress far enough in your competitive dancing you will be paying big time coaches like Ruud Verme to teach you how to develop relationship with your partner. I'm sure that people who you pay money to coach you on the technical aspects of dancing are paying people like Ruud big money to learn how to relate to each other and connect more effectively on the competition floor.

Meaningful and compelling relationships must be worked on extensively in life and in dance.

[croaker]

you know you can be as cocky as you like...I really don't need you to agree with me...I certainly didn't make any of the ridiculous claims you just ascribed to me ...but if you would like to establish this sort of dynamic...that is your perogative
Cocky?
Well, I'm not the one who insinuated that competitve dancers waste their time on
choreography and technique when all they should do is take example of club dancers
who are clearly so much closer to "real dancing".

[evanluck]

That's the beauty of watching live people perform. Same as going to a theater
to watch a live performance.


But competitive dancers actually work extensively on reducing the influence of outside factors on their performance so that they can be more consistent competitors. That is they work hard on being more "robotic" (for lack of a better word) in their dancing so that the variations like poorly chosen music and bumpy floors do not affect the consistency of their performance.

This is the major distinction between someone like Bryan Watson who is a highly skilled dancesport athlete and Slavik Kryklyvyy who is a more artistic dancer and is more suited to a show dance type format.

I am sure that if you saw Benji and Heidi do their competitive routine at 5 different venues it would essentially be the same, especially since the competitive format in West Coast is basically a showdance format with the same music. I am sure that they work very hard to reduce the variation in this type of competitive performance.

Where as high level improvised competition has the excitement of knowing that you will see something totally unique, spontaneous, and in the moment. Something that you will never see again.

[etp777]

Neither did fascination, in anything I read. And since I know she spends even more time getting ready for competitions than I do, working on said technique, etc, I'd certainly argue she doesn't think any of that is a waste of time.

[fascination]

no one insinuated that at all...

[croaker]

Believe me if you progress far enough in your competitive dancing you will be paying big time coaches like Ruud Verme to teach you how to develop relationship with your partner. I'm sure that people who you pay money to coach you on the technical aspects of dancing are paying people like Ruud big money to learn how to relate to each other and connect more effectively on the competition floor.

Meaningful and compelling relationships must be worked on extensively in life and in dance.
Dear Evanluck. Please note that in no time have I refered to your personal dancing
level or dancing abilities, not to mention personal life and relationships. In the future, I would much appreciate if you extended the same courtesy to me, if it's not too much to ask.

[reb]

Interesting indeed. Maybe dancesport needs some jack and jill events to allow more of this mindset to grow into the competitor population

You and peaches may have something here . . . .

For some reason I can't quite put my finger on, this makes me think of the Basics events (and some people really don't like that and avoid entering those events).

Maybe a jack 'n jill could really shake things up!

[fascination]

Neither did fascination, in anything I read. And since I know she spends even more time getting ready for competitions than I do, working on said technique, etc, I'd certainly argue she doesn't think any of that is a waste of time.while it is true that nearly my entire life off of Df is devoted to preparing for comps, I think it is very important to bring the reason we dance back into the dancing, even though as competitors we often have to set it aside while learning how to use our bodies so that when we put it back in we are using it in a way that is masterful...it's just not neccessary to say that all beauty has to be spontaneous or all beauty has to be thoroughly, precisely crafted...and there is no need for anyone to ridicule anyone else's contributions to the discussion...in fact it simply won't be acceptable

[evanluck]

Cocky?
Well, I'm not the one who insinuated that competitve dancers waste their time on
choreography and technique when all they should do is take example of club dancers
who are clearly so much closer to "real dancing".

I think you may be projecting past discussions into this current one. Both Fasc and I are competitive dancers. I can't speak for her but I have spent loads of money learning the technical aspects of dancing from coaches.

Neither of us is implying that working on your technical quality of movement is a waste of time.

I can't speak for her but I am just pointing out that competitive dancers can learn something from the social dancing roots of the ballroom format and deepen their skill in the aspects of partner dancing that make it unique (i.e. connection/relationship, improvisation).

Also the ballroom competitive community could also look for a format that would emphasize these unique aspects of partner dancing to come up with a better product that can be more effectively marketed as a spectator event.

[etp777]

No disagreement from me on any part of that fasc.

If any did come out, I'm still just cranky about having to cancel my group lesson today. Have to go by other studio to work on one of their computers. Maybe I'll steal some dance time while I'm there. :)

[fascination]

let me be very clear...I spend no less than 10 hours a week doing just that (paying for instruction) and that doesn't even touch the practice time and the cross-training or the social dancing... I will tell you this as well...every coach I have had has said that they don't want to be bored when they are watching....and I have no intention of plastering fake joy on my face...I am dancing with someone I care for and respect and whose body I wish to pay attention to and respond to...(no comments from you twisted women friends of mine)...I cannot fathom why I would bother if I didn't want to relate to the soul with whom I was dancing...

[evanluck]

Dear Evanluck. Please note that in no time have I refered to your personal dancing
level or dancing abilities, not to mention personal life and relationships. In the future, I would much appreciate if you extended the same courtesy to me, if it's not too much to ask.

Apologies for the personal attack in regards to your dancing...I will be more sensitive in the future.

My comment about relationships was a general comment.

[fascination]

No disagreement from me on any part of that fasc.

If any did come out, I'm still just cranky about having to cancel my group lesson today. Have to go by other studio to work on one of their computers. Maybe I'll steal some dance time while I'm there. :)I didn't read anything negative in your post :friend:

[croaker]

let me be very clear...I spend no less than 10 hours a week doing just that (paying for instruction) and that doesn't even touch the practice time and the cross-training or the social dancing... I will tell you this as well...every coach I have had has said that they don't want to be bored when they are watching....and I have no intention of plastering fake joy on my face...I am dancing with someone I care for and respect and whose body I wish to pay attention to and respond to...(no comments from you twisted women friends of mine)...I cannot fathom why I would bother if I didn't want to relate to the soul with whom I was dancing...
Fascination,
I never said anything about your commitment or practicing & taking lessons. I merely
reacted to your comment that "performance isn't necessary".
I disagree strongly, and I guess it rubbed me the wrong way more than you might have
intended.

[samina]

let me be very clear...I spend no less than 10 hours a week doing just that (paying for instruction) and that doesn't even touch the practice time and the cross-training or the social dancing... I will tell you this as well...every coach I have had has said that they don't want to be bored when they are watching....and I have no intention of plastering fake joy on my face...I am dancing with someone I care for and respect and whose body I wish to pay attention to and respond to...(no comments from you twisted women friends of mine)...I cannot fathom why I would bother if I didn't want to relate to the soul with whom I was dancing...

a post for the books...

[etp777]

Wow, missed that one due to change of pages. Beautiful.

But this twisted guy is having some trouble not commenting on end of it. ;)

Absolutely agree though. Beautiful fasc. :D

[fascination]

I wasn't about addressing what you thought my level of committment was or wasn't...only addressing evan and etp to affirm their posts regarding my usual approach to dance...
concerning performance, as I previously stated...it is an important part of competitive dance ....but, my real point was that when a real relationship exists between the two dancers performance happens, it doesn't have to be crafted...and again, we don't have to agree...granted...it CAN be crafted...I would just rather not work it from that angle for myself....that is why I must work with someone I like...and won't hurt my love of dance by doing otherwise...that is all...and I don't for one minute think that my choice needs to be anyone else's choice and I don't for one minute think that means I don't have to train like a fanatic...at any rate, you are more than entitled to have your own view...but unless it is patently obvious, you may assume that I am not being hostile to your views...

[fascination]

so okay...group hug...I have to go to the sotre

[etp777]

Good kids, now that we're all getting along, lets hold hands and sing kumbaya. ;)

[croaker]

but unless it is patently obvious, you may assume that I am not being hostile to your views...
:p
Same here.
Sarcastic - yes, hostile - almost never :rolleyes:

[fascination]

going to buy wine instead

[croaker]

Good kids, now that we're all getting along, lets hold hands and sing kumbaya. ;)
And dance it? "Twisted guy" :cool:

[evanluck]

Well, you ever see anyone "improvising" something like this in a club please let me know -
http://youtube.com/watch?v=aHywBuK49Mc


Do you like this performance by Benji and Heidi?

If so, what do you like about it?

[croaker]

Do you like this performance by Benji and Heidi?

If so, what do you like about it?
I think it's absolutely fantastic. And I'm in general not a fan of swing/lindy/WCS etc.
They move in absolute precision, yet it's not mechanical precision. For me
dancing is a blend of pasion and precision, I think they portray exactly that.
And given that they are cousins I don't think there's any chance of romantic involvement
so it's all a show, performance.

[reb]

Benji is amazing.

[evanluck]

I think it's absolutely fantastic. And I'm in general not a fan of swing/lindy/WCS etc.
They move in absolute precision, yet it's not mechanical precision. For me
dancing is a blend of pasion and precision, I think they portray exactly that.
And given that they are cousins I don't think there's any chance of romantic involvement
so it's all a show, performance.

I agree with you on the merits of this performance. Their movements are quite precise and they display a wonderful mix of speed and precision.

The reason I prefer the other clip (the JnJ with Tatianna), is on this one (Heidi and Benji) you can see the performance. It is all very surface. Heidi, in particular is doing lots of facial expressions which seem a bit forced. There is nothing about the performance that disarms you and draws you in. Everything is done with the intention of "watch us" do this and "watch us" do that. In some ways it is like watching a fireworks show. Lots of wow moments but how long do you remember a fireworks show after it is over.

I tend to prefer performances where the dominant chosen point of focus is the partner rather than the audience. It makes me want to watch become the intimacy is so real that at times I feel like I shouldn't be watching.

The performance that I think best illustrates this is this rhumba by Slavik and Karina.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpKGY-AZO5M

Such wonderful connection, relationship and story-telling in this dance. Still performance but the performance occurs organically through connection between partners and a conversation of intentions. It take quite a bit of athleticism to execute, but I don't see the athleticism, because it is used to portray relationship and tell a story.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I agree with you on the merits of this performance. Their movements are quite precise and they display a wonderful mix of speed and precision.

The reason I prefer the other clip (the JnJ with Tatianna), is on this one (Heidi and Benji) you can see the performance. It is all very surface. Heidi, in particular is doing lots of facial expressions which seem a bit forced. There is nothing about the performance that disarms you and draws you in. Everything is done with the intention of "watch us" do this and "watch us" do that. In some ways it is like watching a fireworks show. Lots of wow moments but how long do you remember a fireworks show after it is over.

I tend to prefer performances where the dominant chosen point of focus is the partner rather than the audience. It makes me want to watch become the intimacy is so real that at times I feel like I shouldn't be watching.

The performance that I think best illustrates this is this rhumba by Slavik and Karina.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpKGY-AZO5M

Such wonderful connection, relationship and story-telling in this dance. Still performance but the performance occurs organically through connection between partners and a conversation of intentions. It take quite a bit of athleticism to execute, but I don't see the athleticism, because it is used to portray relationship and tell a story.

I think it is highly unlikely that you will see something that approaches even 1% of the quality of dancing in the J&J video you posted in context of your old Friday night social.

[evanluck]

I think it is highly unlikely that you will see something that approaches even 1% of the quality of dancing in the J&J video you posted in context of your old Friday night social.

Very true. I am not asserting that your average Joe and Sally social dancer are more compelling to watch than top competitive dancers just that the emphasis of social dancing (connection, musicality, improvisational lead and follow) points to things that could benefit competitive dancers.

Also I have seen some pretty rocking good West Coast dancers at this little blues club in Santa Monica. Obviously not the caliber of Benji and Tatianna who are both national champions but if you read the comments on that YouTube video from West Coast insiders, they seem to be saying that the type of lead and follow dancing that is in that video is not totally absent from social west coast dancing among skilled dancers.

[liz]

Do you think some people are just not social dancers? I have never done well in the studio party type thing. I am not comfortable dancing with strangers. I am very much a "type A" personality. I like to do everything to the best of my ability. I am an all or nothing kind of girl..

[liz]

Also, I really don't have any outlets in my area( dance clubs, salsa clubs,est) Just little me dancing alone pretty much all the time.

[fascination]

Do you think some people are just not social dancers? I have never done well in the studio party type thing. I am not comfortable dancing with strangers. I am very much a "type A" personality. I like to do everything to the best of my ability. I am an all or nothing kind of girl..I think some tastes are acquired...and that you certainly don't HAVE to like social dancing but I rather doubt it's about being a type A or a perfectionist b/c I have those tendencies...and, don't get me wrong, i'd rather dance with pro all day long but I have found that, since that isn't possible, overtime, I have discovered the merits of socials...that doesn't mean that all people would or should discover those same merits but I think it is possible over time to warm up to something that doesn't initially strike your fancy...and I think there are some things...like lima beans...about which ya just never change your mind;).....

[FatBaldGuy60]

...and I think there are some things...like lima beans...about which ya just never change your mind;).....

Yummmmm, lima beans! My wife thinks I am insane, but I would trade dessert for lima beans.

FBG

[fascination]

FBG...with all the love I can muster, i concur with your wife....something is seriously disordered with you ;)

[Purr]

Lima beans? Yuck!

[rjcbear]

Yuck, Yuck, Yuck

[samina]

meh...

[Peaches]

Mmmm...lima beans... (Wouldn't trade dessert for them, though.)

Do limas help or harm competitive dancers???

[samina]

i am of the opinion that llamas would definitely be harmful...:cool:

[Peaches]

Even competitive llamas?

[wooh]

Beans beans good for the heart...
Beans beans...
GREAT for the heart!

[samina]

Even competitive llamas?

well, they would clearly have the advantage of stability in the standard dances...

[Peaches]

...sway would be difficult, though...

...and which standing leg would they push from?...

[samina]

shaping would be nice, tho... long neck.

wouldn't wanna practice with one, tho... unless they start making steel-toed court shoes. heh.

[fascination]

I would eat lima beans...or llamas for that matter...if it would make me a better dancer

[reb]

brussels sprouts?

[fascination]

hurl...even worse

[fascination]

but I'd eat em if they'd make me a better dancer...might have to wash em down with something very serious....but I'd do it

[Peaches]

I would eat lima beans...or llamas for that matter...if it would make me a better dancerI wonder what llamas taste like. Probably chicken.

[fascination]

either would be fine atm.....

[samina]

but I'd eat em if they'd make me a better dancer...might have to wash em down with something very serious....but I'd do it

yep. shoot, i'd eat dung-pies and fried worms if it would noticeably help...

[fascination]

okay...not sure about that one without a serious antiseptic chaser

[samina]

a little tequila would be fitting

[Purr]

brussels sprouts?

More yuck!

[rjcbear]

a little tequila would be fitting

The will help any time.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Social dancer here. I recently discovered that I've always been doing outside partner very, very wrong. In trying to provide a clear signal on the social floor, I've been twisting myself into an extreme position. Overleading, I guess. I think the problem isn't social dancing, in itself, but rather not having learned outside partner properly in the beginning and then depending on the social floor for practice and development. Anyway, dancing with other people at the social has shown me that my foxtrot feels nice only because LWWITL (Lady With Whom I Take Lessons) has been anticipating the heck out of the heel turns.

[meow]

Practice and socials really don't mix very well. Better off practicing properly and saving socials for fun.

[douggyw]

Practice and socials really don't mix very well. Better off practicing properly and saving socials for fun.

Can't agree more, practicing needs to be focused, but social reminds people why they dance and to just enjoy it.

[fascination]

agree mostly but there is a certain level of "practice" that I just can't turn off

[wooh]

Rather than thinking of it as "practice" though, I prefer to think of it as dancing to the best of my ability in a given situation.

[fascination]

agreed

[croaker]

Can't agree more, practicing needs to be focused, but social reminds people why they dance and to just enjoy it.
If I didn't enjoy practicing it, I wouldn't do it. I don't need social "to remind" me of anything, I enjoy dance practice/lessons for what they are.