What are the controlling and free partnered Dances?

[Sagitta]

I started having this really interesting conversation today afternoon with the person who taught me to dance swing...(I had popped into his class as I had a really bad dance workshop with one of those national dance champs...)... Anyway we started thinking about what dances are follows given freedom to improvise and express themselves freely.

We thought that for the ballroom dances of waltz and foxtrot the leader was very much in control. I would also add balboa to the list. On the other end of the scale we came up with latin and lindy for those where the follow is freer to improvise. For latin we have shines or periods of solo dancing. In lindy there are those times the leader lets the follow do her own thing.

What do think?

[delamusica]

i think it has more to do with the leader than the dance itself, although latin and swing do of course lend themselves more to individual freedom since you get to let go of each other. but i've definitely done some swing, chacha, and salsa with some leaders who just don't let you do ANYTHING! some leaders, though, even in tango or foxtrot, are flexible enough to let me improv a bit.

[cocodrilo]

That's why I like salsa so much! It gives you so much freedom, you can make up your own steps(shines) and you're not being controlled all the time by your partner.

[squirrel]

:) cocodrilo, I've run into partners who wouldn't let me improvise... but I think salsa gives one enough freedom usually.... don't know about lindy, since I don't dance it

[Sagitta]

:) cocodrilo, I've run into partners who wouldn't let me improvise... but I think salsa gives one enough freedom usually.... don't know about lindy, since I don't dance it

That can be a personality or cultural trait. Latin dance is usually considered macho? Isn't it? Then there are very controlling people... I don't dance lindy too, but I learnt enough a while back to get an idea and also have observed it too.

[cocodrilo]

:) cocodrilo, I've run into partners who wouldn't let me improvise... but I think salsa gives one enough freedom usually.... don't know about lindy, since I don't dance it

That can be a personality or cultural trait. Latin dance is usually considered macho? Isn't it? Then there are very controlling people... I don't dance lindy too, but I learnt enough a while back to get an idea and also have observed it too.
The latinos I dance with know I LOVE shines and like to see what I can do, (and they like to do their stuff, too!!!) so they are not that controlling. It's the people who only know patterns who are reluctant to let go and dance solo- most likely due to a minimal shine repertorie... :?

[pygmalion]

Interesting. My perspective is a bit different. To me, a lead is a suggestion of what to do next, in terms of pattern, speed, direction. But how she does any of these things is up to the follow, regardless of the dance, I think. Any control is strictly in the minds of the lead and follow involved, if you ask me. A truly self-directed follow can dance whatever she wants, within the framework that a lead provides. Her obligations are to respect the music, respect the pattern, tempo and direction of movement chosen by the lead. And, oh yeah, if it's a choreographed routine, she should work within the musical cues and not throw off her partner. Anything over and above that (a lot of stuff! LOL) is up to her. :wink:

[cocodrilo]

Interesting. My perspective is a bit different. To me, a lead is a suggestion of what to do next, in terms of pattern, speed, direction. But how she does any of these things is up to the follow, regardless of the dance, I think. Any control is strictly in the minds of the lead and follow involved, if you ask me. A truly self-directed follow can dance whatever she wants, within the framework that a lead provides. Her obligations are to respect the music, respect the pattern, tempo and direction of movement chosen by the lead. And, oh yeah, if it's a choreographed routine, she should work within the musical cues and not throw off her partner. Anything over and above that (a lot of stuff! LOL) is up to her. :wink:
True, true...

[tj]

Not to mention that in salsa nowadays, hijacking is becoming more and more common.

[cocodrilo]

Not to mention that in salsa nowadays, hijacking is becoming more and more common.

Please elaborate.

[tj]

Not to mention that in salsa nowadays, hijacking is becoming more and more common.

Please elaborate.

Maybe this is just a (USA) West Coast thing?

Edie was talking about the concept of salsa hijacking at her workshop(s) in Vancouver last fall.

The idea is that 2-3x per song, the follow can refuse to follow the pattern/move that is being led, so that she can do her own styling/moves for a couple of 8 counts.

[pygmalion]

Yup, tj. I've done that in both WCS and salsa. 8)

[tj]

Yup, tj. I've done that in both WCS and salsa. 8)

Here's a little gossip for you - heard secondhand that when a follow did that in NYC with a "famous" salsero, that he walked off the dancefloor. :shock:

[pygmalion]

I've been on a salsa floor and had the leader walk off on me before. I survived. Much later, I came to the conclusion that the guy involved was a total jerk, but either way, I survived and kept dancing. So there! :twisted: :lol:

[tj]

I've been on a salsa floor and had the leader walk off on me before. I survived. Much later, I came to the conclusion that the guy involved was a total jerk, but either way, I survived and kept dancing. So there! :twisted: :lol:
:wink: 8)

[cocodrilo]

Not to mention that in salsa nowadays, hijacking is becoming more and more common.

Please elaborate.

Maybe this is just a (USA) West Coast thing?

Edie was talking about the concept of salsa hijacking at her workshop(s) in Vancouver last fall.

The idea is that 2-3x per song, the follow can refuse to follow the pattern/move that is being led, so that she can do her own styling/moves for a couple of 8 counts.
Now that's just plain discourteous, is it not? Never heard of that in MY salsa circles. :shock:

[squirrel]

I wouldn't call it discourteous... sometimes the follower feels like improvising and the leader just won't let her! He keeps on doing the complicated patterns he knows or he himself shows off (multiple spins, etc.)... what is then a follower supposed to do?!

[Flat Shoes]

The girsl can hijack in Lindy too, and even lead the guy if the guy can respond quickly enough too it. But don't hijack too often, especially not when dancing with beginners, since it can be really frustrating for a guy who has something up his sleave but never can get around to it cause the girl always interrupts him.

[etchuck]

Opinion: well, I enjoy WCS because both lead and follow can improvise and style as they want. Sure, you can do that in lindy, but there are more opportunities in WCS (which is influenced from lindy if you didn't know) to do this.

Salsa, I'm sure one can also do a bit more improvisation, but to me salsa is certainly more a machismo dance as I have observed it. It's not to say it's impossible but at least on the social floor, the woman usually improvises when doing shines. In WCS, the woman can on her own (and with proper connection) change the speed, rhythm, and style as she does a pass while in contact with her partner (without changing the relationship as lead-follow, where I get the feeling hijacking in lindy or salsa there is a slight disconnect for leaders to switch gears). The leader doesn't have to be advanced to have the follower go for that change in style, as long as the connection allows her to do it. That's why to me, WCS is more of an improvisational/free-style dance than salsa.

[foursquare]

I call my girlfriend "Audi" when we dance. She often has her own agenda for what she's going to do on the dancefloor, and I am continually trying to find hands, arms, anything to grab onto to lead the next move. That is if she's facing toward me at all. :)

The really nice thing is that while our dancing might not be technically precise, it is ALWAYS an absolute pleasure every single dance.

We also chat while we dance... another no-no it seems.

foursquare
(Audi slogan: "Never Follow")

[spatten]

I have no problem in almost any dance, when the lady does her own improvisation as long as it fits within the footwork of the steps I am leading. In fact it is often more enjoyable!!

I find it distinctly not enjoyable-when the lady's footwork or movements interfere with the communication and diverge from the patterns lead. What has been desribed as hijacking undermines, at least to me, the idea of ballroom dance. I guess I would see this as the dancing equivalent of a fight, or arguement!! What fun is that?

It is a bit more difficult in Standard than Latin, as the guy really is in control of the lady's shape, headweight etc. How she interprets his signals, like how quickly to change headweigt are up to her.

Scott

[tj]

All right, since I'm the one who first mentioned salsa hijacking, I'll chime in with my opinion and my experiences.

Cop out, I know, but... It all depends on the dynamics of the partnership more than just the concept of hijacking. If/when a follow is doing it merely to show off or to imply to you that she's bored, I find it annoying. When a follow does it to play with a certain element in a song, or to do something particularly spectacular or flirtatious, then I'll like it.

Two of the follows that I dance with are at both extremes of this.

There's this attractive young gal, who comes across as having a huge chip on her shoulder. We've got particularly bad hand connection, and she's one of those blamers. :roll: I tend to just shut up, and not say anything when I dance with her, and I give her a lot of space and freedom when we dance. She's not exactly one of my favorite dancers, but hey, I'll dance with her once in a blue moon when no one else is available.

There's another gal who hijacks in a much better way. We're constantly playing around anyway: being goofy sometimes, being flirtatious other times, and it's a ton of fun when she hijacks and starts doing her own thing for an 8 count or three. Her hijacking improves the experience as she makes it entertaining when she does so.

So, IMHO, hijacking is fine as long as you've got good chemistry between each other. It *can* be used to drive a wedge between the two of you instead. (Perhaps a good thing in certain cases!)