NDCA Code of Ethics [Archive]

DanceAm

05-03-2004, 09:10 AM

I love the code of ethics, and if the NDCA really tried to enforce them, most teachers would be out of business.

I think focusing on the needs of the student and not the teacher's financial situation should be the highest, most reveared of all.

But then there is the situation like Eddie Aryes and Nancy Senner, since those two fell in love out of a teacher/student relationship, what should be done? I don't think the relationship is exploititive, because surely it is beyond Eddie trying to get a few more lessons out of her. In fact, Nancy may have hurt his ability to make money. How do you charge your significant other for lessons and comps?

As for the sexual innuendo, that is just way to prevalent and subjective to control. What is said and joked about at a dance studio would have major corporations in court on sexual harrisment suits. What one might consider offensive might not be considered offensive by another. I also think that women instructors learn to live with a lot that normally they wouldn't stand for.

Do any women instructors think they have lowered their standards since they became a dance instructor? What about the way many students fall into lust and infatuation with their teachers? I would guess that many teachers are not leading their students on, but in a close situation like one on one dance instruction, the physical closeness is a barrier that is broken long before any releationship is even started. Yet in regular courtship, holding hands is a sign of getting closer. But that may be due more to the fact that our society doesn't teach dance enough at a younger age for anyone to put dance into perspective. Dance is a way of socializing like conversation or drinks, it should not be any more sexual than talking about work or the weather. Simply another way to get to know each other.

I am starting to ramble so I will stop.

pygmalion

05-03-2004, 09:50 AM

Hmm. I have had some teachers who by no means adhered to these ethical guidelines. Sad, isn't it, how unprofessional and exploitative some people can become in the name of making a living? :(

Don't get me wrong. I think it's important that the guidelines be there, but there are unenforceable, aren't they? I mean, what can the NDCA do to a teacher who doesn't conform, even if they are NDCA affiliated? And especially if they're not? Not much. *shrug*

DanceMentor

05-03-2004, 10:17 AM

Maybe they should make it a rule that you have to post the code of ethics on the wall at the studio. :lol:

pygmalion

05-03-2004, 10:22 AM

That's not such a bad idea. At least, In Florida, studios have to post their license on the studio wall. Why not the code of ethics, too?

For obvious reasons, I don't want to go into detail, here, but I have been at the receiving end of every single thing described above, with various teachers at various times. Some things, like sexual misconduct, are fairly obvious, but what about emotional or financial exploitation? If something had been posted, I would have read it, and perhaps recognized sooner that I was being abused by a teacher. Hmm.

MadamSamba

05-03-2004, 10:25 AM

DM, I suspect that won't happen at too many places because, it seems, at least one Lothario is required per studio (or the female equivalent).

Obviously not all studios operate in such a manner, but I recently heard of a teacher slept with a student who claimed to be much older than she was, but it turned out she was only 16 or 17. (The legal age here is 16), but regardless, he's old enough to be her father, if not grandfather, and is known for sleeping with students.

It's not really his fault if he honestly didn't know, but what's really worrying is that the studio turned a blind eye (to all his flings with students) and all because he brings in lots of money to the studio. The worst bit is that there are many lonely people in dancing and I can't help but feel that some of these guys and gals prey on that...

dragon3085

05-03-2004, 10:26 AM

Warren J. Dew

05-03-2004, 10:29 AM

I love the code of ethics, and if the NDCA really tried to enforce them, most teachers would be out of business.
Some teachers might. I think most teachers obey those ethical rules; you just hear more about the exceptions because they make for more interesting rumors.

I'm not sure posting them on the wall would be a good idea in all cases ... at studios where that kind of thing is never even considered, they might give people ideas!

pygmalion

05-03-2004, 10:33 AM

That's not such a bad idea. At least, In Florida, studios have to post their license on the studio wall. Why not the code of ethics, too?

.

Just curious but what license do they have the post. Does the state have a license specific to dance studios or is just a lic to run and operate a business?

Pat

It's a dance studio specific license, with a state registration number. It doesn't mean much, though, IMHO. It's not associated with any certification requirements that I know of. (DancingMommy might know. She used to teach dance in Florida, I think.)

Chris Stratton

05-03-2004, 10:40 AM

Florida has some exceptionally tough laws specifically regulating dance studios. Some of the most outrageous abuses you hear about have involved seniors who would like to do something fun like dancing being talked into spending simply astronomical amounts of packages, most of which they probably won't be able to use. Florida has a lot of retirees and must look like fertile ground for this sort of scam. So now Florida has laws.

pygmalion

05-03-2004, 10:44 AM

Yes, that's true. Unfortunately, there are loopholes which studios sometimes use very effectively to minimize or avoid the impact of those laws. That's partcularly true in the issue of emotional exploitation of students, and, despite the stereotypes, it's not just seniors who are being targeted. At least in my observation, middle-aged widows/widowers and divorcees are equally likely to be victims.

DanceAm

05-03-2004, 11:15 AM

I never meant to imply that most teachers are unprofessional, just that some items are so subjective, that surely these guidelines could be considered broken. I apologize if that is how it sounded. But being part owner of an independant studio, I have formulated many general opionions about dance instructors which I won't discuss. But, in their defense, it is a very tough career and one with a very unsecure future.

I think if you look on the NDCA site, I remember reading that the NDCA does want you to post these guidelines in the studio. And we do post them in ours.

As for disciplinary action, that is not the concern of the NDCA, though they can choose to suspend membership of blantent violators. That may keep them teaching, but would not allow them to enter any comps that require NDCA membership. But how many students even know what the NDCA is? Do they know they can submit complaints to them? I think the biggest mistake the NDCA made was to require separate membership cards for amateur couples and not for amateur competitors that just dance Pro/Am. Now I get the same NDCA documentation that the pros get and I even read it.

At another studio I was at, my wife asked our teacher about where the NDCA code of ethics was displayed and he had no idea what we were talking about. Before that, he probably wondered if his students could spell N-D-C-A.

Knowledge is power, learn about the NDCA, even if you are just a student. They make a lot of policy and hold a lot of power in the dance world. USABDA even has a seat on their board, but if you look at all the other seats, 1 chair isn't enough for all of Amateur Dancing, there should be more representation of the Amateurs, especially for Pro/Am competitors.

Chris Stratton

05-03-2004, 11:18 AM

Before that, he probably wondered if his students could spell N-D-C-A.

I think I saw that dance once... people were making letters with arms over their head.

pygmalion

05-03-2004, 11:55 AM

I never meant to imply that most teachers are unprofessional, just that some items are so subjective, that surely these guidelines could be considered broken. I apologize if that is how it sounded. But being part owner of an independant studio, I have formulated many general opionions about dance instructors which I won't discuss. But, in their defense, it is a very tough career and one with a very unsecure future.

Yes. A lot of these items are subjective, but blatant is blatant. Darn! I wish I felt free to share details, but I don't. I have my own personal code of ethics that won't allow it. *shrug*

As for disciplinary action, that is not the concern of the NDCA, though they can choose to suspend membership of blantent violators. That may keep them teaching, but would not allow them to enter any comps that require NDCA membership. But how many students even know what the NDCA is? Do they know they can submit complaints to them? I think the biggest mistake the NDCA made was to require separate membership cards for amateur couples and not for amateur competitors that just dance Pro/Am. Now I get the same NDCA documentation that the pros get and I even read it.

I've known about the NDCA for quite a while, and I doubt I would ever submit a complaint. The dance community is too small for me to cause that kind of trouble for a teacher and keep a clean conscience. People talk. And, as you say, it is a tough job. Walking the line between ethical and unethical behavior has to be difficult sometime, since personal feelings and making a living are both involved.

For me, it's a vote with your feet kind of deal. When you experience unethical behavior from a teacher, confront the other person to try to resolve things. If that doesn't work, leave and find an ethical instructor. Bottom line, that's an approach that works for me.

pygmalion

05-03-2004, 12:22 PM

Before that, he probably wondered if his students could spell N-D-C-A.

I think I saw that dance once... people were making letters with arms over their head.

Must've been at a USABDA dance. :roll: :lol:

KevinL

05-03-2004, 12:32 PM

I think if you look on the NDCA site, I remember reading that the NDCA does want you to post these guidelines in the studio. And we do post them in ours.

Yes, the same document says:
ETHICAL PRACTICAL GUIDELINES FOR NDCA RECOGNIZED DANCE TEACHERS
These guidlines have been prepared by the Ethics Committee of the NDCA and follow industry standards for teachers of dance and closely related professions. They are intended to provide all dance teachers guidance in the daily businees relationship of teacher/student in all settings from dance studio to one-on-one instruction. They should be posted in a prominent place and distributed to all students.

As for disciplinary action, that is not the concern of the NDCA, though they can choose to suspend membership of blantent violators. That may keep them teaching, but would not allow them to enter any comps that require NDCA membership. But how many students even know what the NDCA is? Do they know they can submit complaints to them?

Probably not, since I started this thread and didn't know I could submit complaints!

Knowledge is power, learn about the NDCA, even if you are just a student. They make a lot of policy and hold a lot of power in the dance world.

I agree that people should take the time to learn about the larger dance community, but there are lots of people who just don't bother.

DanceAm wrote:
I love the code of ethics, and if the NDCA really tried to enforce them, most teachers would be out of business.

Some teachers might. I think most teachers obey those ethical rules; you just hear more about the exceptions because they make for more interesting rumors.

That's true, when was the last time you heard a rumor about that dance teacher who didn't charge his students because he was late for class? Or that other teacher who told her students to take classes with someone else because they were more skilled in what the student wanted to learn?

I'm not sure posting them on the wall would be a good idea in all cases ... at studios where that kind of thing is never even considered, they might give people ideas!
I don't know about this, unethical people seem to think of lots of ideas that the rest of us would never consider.

Purr

05-03-2004, 12:32 PM

I, too, have been an emotional and economic victim of teachers.

pygmalion

05-03-2004, 12:34 PM

Leave, Purr. Find another teacher. Otherwise, you're going to get hurt. Please believe me.

KevinL

05-03-2004, 12:35 PM

Does anyone have any suggestions on how do deal with him emotionally? I don't want to replace him as a dance teacher, I'd just like to be able to deal with him on a level of emotional-detachment. One of my co-workers suggested counseling.

Without a better understanding of each of you there probably isn't much that any of us will be able to say that will be helpful, but I'm sure lots of people will try to be helpful.

Welcome to Dance-forums, Purr!

Kevin

pygmalion

05-03-2004, 12:38 PM

Sorry. My response was too emotional.

I suggest, if you're in a studio with multiple teachers, start taking exchange lessons with other teachers. That will help keep you dancing while minimizing the emotional impact of this teacher on you. Also, take a week or two off, completely away from the studio, perhaps after your next exhibition. Dance, if you want, but get away from the studio, so you can start to sort out your feelings about dance and about this teacher.

Go to public ballroom dances. Talk to people. Go out and watch other teachers dance and interact with their students.

Don't sign another contract at your studio until you feel better than you do now. (Not signing up for lessons in advance will sometimes make teachers show their true colors, if they're exploiting you.)

pygmalion

05-03-2004, 12:47 PM

I need to sign off and get some work done, Purr, so if you're still there, I'll say this.

A lot has been said and written about romantic entanglements and crushes between teachers and students. In my experience, that stuff is powerful, but not nearly as powerful as emotional entanglements with helpless-looking, needy, or manipulative teachers. For a teacher to burden you with their personal and/or emotional needs is unconscionable behavior. You are not a bad person if you decide to put a stop to it.

Hugs.

I'll check in later. PM me if you want. :)

Jenn

pygmalion

05-03-2004, 01:04 PM

Dang! I knew I wouldn't be able to stay away. I have to post a disclaimer/cautionary note. Emotional neediness and manipulation can go both ways. Teachers have the NDCA guidelines to help them understand their role, that's true. But students have (in my mind) an unwritten standard to which they should adhere, as well. It's their responsibility to treat teachers with respect and to create a professional, not personal, relationship. The responsibility lies with both teacher and student.

DanceAm

05-03-2004, 03:57 PM

Were any responses here from instructors? I would like to know their comments. Teachers should be in control, but when times are a little lean or that new dress is 5000 bucks, it is hard to stop teaching a customer. How bad does it have to get before you decide not to teach a student anymore.

I once heard a teacher say she was so offended by how a guy smelled that she over priced a package thinking he would decline. Then he paid the package and she had to teach every lesson. That plan backfired.

pygmalion

05-03-2004, 04:01 PM

KevinL is an instructor. It would be nice to hear from others, though. 8)

From a student perspective, although I think both people are adults, and therefore responsible, I think teachers bear the primary responsibility for maintaining a professional relationship at all times.

Adwiz

05-03-2004, 05:04 PM

when was the last time you heard a rumor about that dance teacher who didn't charge his students because he was late for class? Or that other teacher who told her students to take classes with someone else because they were more skilled in what the student wanted to learn?

Hmm. This kind of thing happens all the time at one of my studios. While you still get charged when the teacher is late, you do get more than the expected makeup time. In one case I got a free extra lesson. Referrals to better-suited teachers are made all the time.

This got me thinking about the philosophy that undergirds ethical practices and I think in general it reflects an attitude that the customer is the reason you are in business. Studio owners who really believe and live that will foster that kind of attitude in their teachers and staff. I also thinks it helps when the owner is a dancer who is passionate about helping the dance community. This shows up in a hundred ways. In the case of this particular studio, the owner received a cash award at a comp recently as "teacher of the year" for the region, and he gave it back to the organization sponsoring the event because he felt they needed it and could make the event even better if they had that extra cash. With an example like that, who walks his talk, no wonder his studio has such high ethical standards.

Purr

05-04-2004, 07:25 AM

:cry:

etchuck

05-04-2004, 08:20 AM

There are quite a few issues at stake here, and obviously this is not a situation where just leaving is an easy option.

I can clearly make analogies to research science (which is my professional career field) in which one's relationship to a mentor/advisor is the key to advancing or failing. There are certainly no easy options when such a relationship becomes inappropriate. While there are grievance procedures when it comes to student-teacher or employee-employer relationships, here is an instance where there is no apparent oversight for breaches in professional conduct.

I guess it's certainly easier to discuss this in general terms without knowing the specific emotional issues in play (and I'm sure others here are talking to you about it... or they should be). I don't know if counseling is the only route you should take, though you're going to need that support throughout the process. More properly, you need to find another teacher in that studio in which you can confide and can watch over any problems. Ideally it would be the owner of the studio or the next lead instructor. I would also seek other students of his to see if he is emotionally manipulating you or if it's a pattern of behavior. If you are one of a pattern of students who feel this way, there are serious questions about his understanding of professional practices. If you are the only one, then you have to take a firmer stand about making sure he doesn't emotionally pour everything on you.

I would also say don't be afraid to take lessons with a different instructor unless you are really that serious and comfortable with dancing with someone. First off, it is interesting what different instructors emphasize in their dancing, and each person has a different learning style. One teacher may not be able to impart the knowledge of hip motion as well as another, so it's to your advantage to dance with as many people as possible, and take lessons from as many people too. Never be afraid to have multiple mentors (in dancing or in your career).

But the most important aspect of the relationship you have is that he needs to focus on the advancement of the student in a professional course. Sure one cannot avoid the small talk of how your life is going, and I admit that's part of a good understanding between student and teacher. But aside from discussing how you look, does he get possessive when it comes to you dancing with other teachers in the studio? Does he suggest you dance with another student whom he thinks you can be a good partner? If he is truly looking out for your benefit, these should be questions that should come naturally in your relationship because he is looking out for you and not for him. That's the quality of character I want... heck, I demand.

pygmalion

05-04-2004, 09:26 AM

I've begun to distance myself from him, already. I've cut back on my private lessons, and I'm not participating in a lot of the studio events (parties & workshops). He's noticed, but he hasn't said a lot, yet. However, I know he's going to promote another competition soon, and I'm going to say no to that as well.

These are steps in the right direction. Distancing yourself is a good idea, I think, even if you decide to stay with this teacher.

I think I said before that he finds a way to bind you to him. He knows all about each student (and, believe me, we know more about him and his private life than we should), so he can find the connection to relate the student on some level. And then, it's like he's created a sense of obligation to do everything he says. He's even told me, that as his student, he expects me to participate in everything, and it's for my own good. And, he's made suggestions relating to me personally, with the latest regarding my choice of attire, which apparently needs spicing up in order to attract a man. Previously, he encouraged me to get a nicer hairstyle & color my hair (I did, and I'll admit it looks great).

I think I take lessons in Peyton Place. :?

This is a common sleazy sales technique. One of the studios I used to attend gave a little "survey" to its new students which asked all sorts of quasi-psychological questions. Then, sad to say, their sales pitch was predicated on the teacher's perception of your motivations, based on the survey results.

Only you can decide what is best for you. Two pieces of input, though.

One. Don't limit your options. Take a look around. Search the web. Ask questions. There may be equally good instructors out there that you just don't know about.

Two. There's nothing wrong with staying in a teacher/student relationship with your current instructor, if you think that's best for your dancing. Just be aware of what's going on, so you can take charge of your dancing.

pygmalion

05-04-2004, 09:38 AM

Oh yeah, and one more thing. Take a look at the Franchise Experiences thread. There are quite a few perspectives there on the good teacher/ bad teacher/sales technique issue. Some quite positive, some horror stories. You may feel less isolated, if you see what some others have been through.

(You'll also see why my first reaction was get the heck out. :oops: :lol: )

spatten

05-04-2004, 09:39 AM

Two. There's nothing wrong with staying in a teacher/student relationship with your current instructor, if you think that's best for your dancing. Just be aware of what's going on, so you can take charge of your dancing.

I am going to have to disagree here. I think this teacher's behaviour (as Purr described) hurts the ballroom industry as a whole - as long as we continue to support this ballroom wil never escape the negative tinge that clings to it. It will never be as legitimized as many of us that love ballroom would like.

I see nothing wrong with having strong personal relationships between a coach/student as long as they are productive and not abusing either party.
That doesn't sound like the case in Purr's description.

pygmalion

05-04-2004, 09:44 AM

I see what you're saying very well, and my first (very emotional) reaction was to beg her to get away from this guy.

But, if he truly is the best in town, or even the state, and Purr is a serious dancer, she may want to bite the bullet and keep taking lessons from him. I would, if that's what it took to get good instuction. I've been lucky, because there are many good ballroom instructors near me. So when I've had problems, I've been able to pick up the phone and get a replacement fairly easily. But what if you're stuck in semi-rural country somewhere, with only one or two studios in town?

pygmalion

05-04-2004, 09:59 AM

Lordy! Lordy! Am I ever going to get anything done? (Not with DF around, says the peanut gallery :oops: :lol: )

One more thing. Don't assume this teacher is the best around. Find out. I spent seventeen months in a relationship with a verbally abusive, emotionally manipulative dance teacher because I believed him when he told me he was the best. He WAS the best at that studio, but he was by no means the best around. (I'm not exaggerating about the verbal abuse. And you will not believe this, but I just found out that, after a two-year hiatus, he's back in the dance business. :evil: )

Your best weapon in this whole situation, Purr, is information. Contact your local USABDA chapter and find out if there are public ballroom dances. Go to one. Take a look at the teachers who will probably be there, dancing with their students. Network. Talk to folks. Pick up some business cards. I bet you have more options than you think.

Purr

05-04-2004, 09:59 AM

pygmalion

05-04-2004, 10:01 AM

I'm also dealing with the issue that perhaps this situation is my fault, maybe this situation wouldn't have progressed if I were a little less naive and trusting. Or maybe, if I had more outside interests, I wouldn't have gotten wound up in Peyton Place studio.

We'll see what happens. I have group class tonight, and a lesson with him immediately afterwards.

:kitty:

This is NOT your fault. You should be able to trust your dance teacher.

Good luck with the class tonight.

KevinL

05-04-2004, 10:10 AM

I'm also dealing with the issue that perhaps this situation is my fault, maybe this situation wouldn't have progressed if I were a little less naive and trusting. Or maybe, if I had more outside interests, I wouldn't have gotten wound up in Peyton Place studio.

Being manipulated is not your fault, this situation is not your fault. If you get mugged leaving work tonight will it be your fault because you walked into the parking lot? No, it will be the "fault", and pre-planning, of the mugger.

spatten

05-04-2004, 10:14 AM

This is NOT your fault. You should be able to trust your dance teacher.

This is complelty right. Trust and naievte are good qualities to have, not something that is inapropiate.

Purr, I wish you strength to stand up for what you want. It is your money, you control the pursestrings - you have the power. I hope you can find another good teacher or teach this guy a lesson or two.

But, if he truly is the best in town, or even the state, and Purr is a serious dancer, she may want to bite the bullet and keep taking lessons from him

Yes, Jenn I agree - I would probably take from the best teacher in the area. But it would seriously impact my ability to enjoy dance. There are so many amazing coaches out there who are respectable and professional.

Scott

etchuck

05-04-2004, 10:15 AM

Distancing myself from him, though, will inevitably get a response from him. He'll want to know what's wrong, and I'll give it about 2 weeks for this for happen. Ideally we would have a discussion setting the parameters of the relationship. But it just might be too late. :cry:

The funny thing is, my teacher trains all the new staff. He goes over with them what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior, including any discussion of the teacher's personal life, discussion of the student's personal life, language, physical contact, and meeting outside the studio. There's even a sign posted in the studio. He just doesn't follow what he teaches himself.

A bit ironic, but then again, I've been there before too.

You should be discussing the parameters of your working relationship... often as possible. If you are anticipating this epic confrontation with him, which it sounds like you are, know what you want to say to him. What do you want out of dancing, and how does his instruction help you achieve that?

I was planning on setting up a few lessons with another teacher to work on rumba and west coast swing styling, so I might confide in her. It will get me away from him, but he is very territorial, so that will not go unnoticed.

How about being pro-active? Yeah, I'm doing this as a test case, but if you trust the relationship enough, ask him on his opinion on the other teacher's capabilities as an instructor. "I've approached teacher Y about working on my rumba and my WCS styling, and I'm wondering what your opinion is of his/her teaching style." You're doing this to improve your own dancing, for crying out loud. You're the one paying him, not his property. You're his student, not his slave.

I'm also dealing with the issue that perhaps this situation is my fault, maybe this situation wouldn't have progressed if I were a little less naive and trusting. Or maybe, if I had more outside interests, I wouldn't have gotten wound up in Peyton Place studio.

No, no, no... it's not only your fault. Granted, being naive doesn't necessarily excuse everything, but it takes two for a proper relationship (professional, platonic, or otherwise). To call up a sports analogy, if a catcher doesn't catch the ball from a pitcher, whose fault is it? Well, certainly if it's a wild pitch, you could say the pitcher, but the catcher tells him where to throw the ball in the first place, right? (Not to mention the fact, they have been practicing their throws for months.) Same thing here: if you don't learn and develop to your full potential, you are not solely to blame, but there may be a breakdown in the teaching method your instructor uses. If the interpersonal stuff is adversely affecting your dancing, don't blame the fact you have emotions. Make it clear to your instructor that how he is interacting with you is affecting your dancing, and if he respects you and the professional code (written and unwritten), he should adjust to help you. If he doesn't, then for your benefit of dancing, you have the right to end the relationship.

It's sounding more and more similar to the psychology of abusive spousal/romantic relationships, although this case does not involve legalized relationships, just purchased/contracted relationships. It's certainly easier said than done, and I don't want to downplay any of your feelings on this, but you have to understand, for things to get better, you have to know what the problems are and what you want things to be.

pygmalion

05-04-2004, 10:17 AM

I was planning on setting up a few lessons with another teacher to work on rumba and west coast swing styling, so I might confide in her. It will get me away from him, but he is very territorial, so that will not go unnoticed.

I wouldn't recommend confiding in another teacher at that studio. If your current teacher is the staff supervisor, or whatever they call it at your studio, that will place the female teacher in a very awkward position. Either she'll be forced to keep your secret, or, much worse, she'll tell him what you said.

If you want to talk with someone, talk with a friend not from that studio (Hmm. Why does DF immediately come to mind?) If you're ready for a knock-down, drag-out confrontation, talk to him about it directly. Or, if you're ready to move on to another teacher, talk to the studio manager.

Genesius Redux

05-04-2004, 10:57 AM

I only just started getting back to this thread. Purr....

Let me think how to put this delicately. Your teacher is a creep. Alas, his type is not uncommon in the industry. But believe me--there are plenty of other people you can take dance lessons from. I don't really buy this "best in the state" thing. Some of these guys are legends in their own minds. Others self-promote shamelessly because it helps students justify the expense of the lessons.

Trust me on this one--the emotional manipulation is part of a cold-blooded and preconceived business strategy. He doesn't care about you at all. He cares about your money.

I'm in no position to advise anyone that they shouldn't have personal relationships with their teachers--I've had and continue to have very close personal relationships with mine. But when those personal relationships begin to affect the professional ones, there's a problem. On the part of the student, I think it's incumbent not to take advantage of your teacher's affection financially or expecting all sorts of freebie consultations and bits of advice outside the framework of a lesson. For the teacher, it's a matter of not using a student's affection to try to get more business.

Friendships and business can go hand in hand as they do in many other professions--legal, medical, financial. But there has to be trust, and trust is formed by knowing that neither party will abuse the friendship for their own gain.

Purr, many of us have been in your situation. Your teacher, as you've described him, is a sleazy, arrogant, self-centered crumb of human excrement who deserves to be flushed away for reasons of simple good husbandry. Best in the state? I doubt it. It's not neuro-surgery, it's dancing. There are a lot of people who are good out there. Find a teacher who deserves your business, your respect, and your regard.

Best of luck,

Genesius

P.S. Feel free to print this and show it to your teacher. My email address is on my profile if he wants to have words.

pygmalion

05-04-2004, 11:00 AM

LOL! How do you feel about that, GR? :wink: :lol:

Genesius Redux

05-04-2004, 11:01 AM

LOL! How do you feel about that, GR? :wink: :lol:

Do you expect any less from me, darlin'? :wink:

pygmalion

05-04-2004, 11:25 AM

I think etchuck was quite insightful earlier in this thread when he said that these relationships start to resemble abusive spousal relationships. Just walking away is not easy, even if it is in the student's best interest. Slimeball teachers somehow create an emotional dependence in their students, and weaning oneself from that dependence is a difficult process, at least in my experience.

I really think that the path most likely to help Purr in the long run is to gradually reduce lesson time with her current teacher while ramping up lesson time with another teacher or teachers. That's what I did, and it worked. As soon as I began to realize what a piece of human excrement (LOL!) my first dance teacher was, I got a new teacher. I didn't quit right away, though. For one thing, I had already paid for tons of lessons in advance (another sign of good old financial manipulation btw) For another thing, as much as I hated my former dance teacher's behavior, I also loved him. It's weird, but his screaming fits, his insults, his tantrums, his threats, and his constant sales pitch didn't make me hate him. He was good at playing that emotional game. So I weaned myself of him, slowly. Working with other teachers made me see that it was possible to have a professional, even friendly relationship with a dance teacher -- that you usually don't HAVE to take abuse for the love of dance.

Purr

05-04-2004, 11:37 AM

I'll try to answer some of the questions asked.

What is my motivation for dancing? I've always liked dancing (freestyle), and over 2 years ago, after an introduction to ballroom dancing group class through the local parks & recreation department, I thought it might be something I'd like to do. Another motivation is socialization, I don't have a lot of friends, and I like the student group we've got at the studio. And then there's exercise & posture benefits. I also have enjoyed the 2 competitions I've been to.

What's my teacher's opinion of the female teacher I'm going to schedule lessons with? Excellent. He thinks she's one of the best around. Possibly, though, anything I might say to her will get back to him.

Is there someone else to talk to? There is another female student at the studio I'm friendly with, who is also one of his students, and we've talked about him a lot. She seems be more in control of the situation, although she takes a lot of lessons and has been to at least 6 competitions with him.

pygmalion

05-04-2004, 11:42 AM

I've heard stories about some very high level dancers who get away with abusive treatment of their students. Hmm. I'm truly not asking anything, Purr. I don't want you to identify this guy on the web, even inadvertantly.

Have you considered getting a copy of DanceBeat? There are all sorts of listings there (and in some other journals and sites) of dance teachers and coaches, listed by state.

Warren J. Dew

05-04-2004, 12:10 PM

The funny thing is, my teacher trains all the new staff. He goes over with them what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior, including any discussion of the teacher's personal life, discussion of the student's personal life, language, physical contact, and meeting outside the studio. There's even a sign posted in the studio. He just doesn't follow what he teaches himself.
It's possible that this teacher is not aware of violating those guidelines. Peoples' capacity for self deception is generally great.

If that's the case, it might be possible to improve things gradually and nonconfrontationally by pointing out when some specific behavior seems to push one of the rules. Certainly not guaranteed to work, but possibly worth a try.

Purr

05-04-2004, 12:14 PM

No. I've tried that approach already, and it doesn't work.

pygmalion

05-04-2004, 12:15 PM

No! Are you going to let this sleazeball ruin your dance experience, then deprive you of dancing all together? No. At least try to find another teacher.

spatten

05-04-2004, 01:39 PM

Another possible solution might be to just step away from dancing altogether.

This sounds like one of the worst reasons not to dance I have heard. Seriously though, if you like the students and friends of the studio perhaps you can stay on taking a minimal number of lessons.
It seems most likely to me, that you should get out of there but you might be able to swing it.

I do have a friend that was in a similar situation. She came to my teacher, who is wonderful in many regards, and eventually over a period of months realized she didn't need the lessons with the abusive teacher any more. I think she is much happier now.

BTW, if you ever have the reason to be in TX I can show you a really nice studio with good people and good teachers.

tsb

05-04-2004, 02:52 PM

Dang! I knew I wouldn't be able to stay away.

:)

tsb

05-04-2004, 03:00 PM

Peoples' capacity for self deception is generally great.

we are not rational beings; we are rationalizing beings!

tsb

05-04-2004, 03:28 PM

while etchuck's observation has some merit, i tend to see a teacher/student relationship having as much or more potential to be like a dysfunctional parent child relationship.

purr: i echo warren's suggestion: prepare yourself as needed, and bring this up with your teacher. it may not make a difference, but try to express in terms of your own discomfort rather than making any sort of value judgment on his actions to minimize the chances of a defensive reaction on his part. however if he does not respond to the issue of your discomfort and either defends his own motives and/or tells you you shouldn't feel that way, i would then recommend escalating it and discuss it within the perspective of the NDCA code of ethics. regardless of how it turns out you may discover that your only recourse is to seek another teacher. only you can decide if it's worth it in the long run.

you've mentioned that another student seems better able to "handle" the dynamics of being a student of this person with the only distinction being that they've been to more competitions together. you may want to look more at this. is the teacher actually behaving differently towards this person?

Larinda McRaven

05-04-2004, 03:58 PM

tsb

05-04-2004, 05:04 PM

tsb, quite possibly the teacher treats different students differently. Teachers are chameleons by trade and are constantly having to adapt to each students personaity each hour.

Some students are very fragile and need a fair amount of kid gloves. On the other hand I have a student that I can cuss at and tell him he disappoints me when he messes up, and yet this guy comes back for more, and will complain that the other teacher I encouraged him to have lessons with is "too soft" and didn't teach him anything.

yeek.

So he very well may act differently, AND the other students can percieve his actions differently.

thanks. i do understand this. the point is was to suggest that purr's own makeup is a factor in this situation - and that it wasn't the fact that doing more competitions together was the difference.

i know nothing about the instructor in question. & i try not to draw certain conclusions based on hearing only one side of the story. what i think i know for sure is that purr is uncomfortable with the current dynamics of the relationship with her instructor & i have tried to speak to helping her resolve this in what i consider a healthy way.

we all have unique perspectives, values, and baggage. not all baggage accessorizes well together. while this instructor may be in blatant violation of every value we all hold dear, we can't change him & i submit that it may be worthwhile for purr to examine what her values, decisions & choices may or may not have contributed to the situation; it takes two to tango (unless you're practicing boleos with a chair - yes i saw the topic).

Larinda McRaven

05-04-2004, 05:58 PM

& i submit that it may be worthwhile for purr to examine what her values, decisions & choices may or may not have contributed to the situation; it takes two to tango.

exactly, while I would never even venture to imply that Purr was responsible for the teachers behavior (!) I would question the fact that she used the word relationship (BIG RED FLAG in my book). This usually tells me that a students perception of the situation is slightly skewed.

i know nothing about the instructor in question. & i try not to draw certain conclusions based on hearing only one side of the story. what i think i know for sure is that purr is uncomfortable with the current dynamics of the relationship with her instructor & i have tried to speak to helping her resolve this in what i consider a healthy way.

I think that this is important for everyone to keep in mind before the name-calling continues. (GR! :wink: ) We have not had personal experiences with this teacher and are simply reacting to one persons interpretation.

Purr, it is painfully obvious that you are uncomfortable and many here can empathize. I do think that you should be able to talk to your teacher and let him know that his behaviour, in your eyes, is unprofessional. And if he is unwilling to change the way he interacts with you, then you are ready to find a new teacher. Treating him with in a business-like manner, with respect, and like an adult (as much as you may want to haul off and smack him) is a fast way for him to view you in a manner I think you might be more comforable with.

pygmalion

05-04-2004, 06:17 PM

exactly, while I would never even venture to imply that Purr was responsible for the teachers behavior (!) I would question the fact that she used the word relationship (BIG RED FLAG in my book). This usually tells me that a students perception of the situation is slightly skewed.

I'm sure that's true with you, Larinda, as it is with most dance teachers, who try to be honest, up front, and professional with their students.

However, relationships between dance teachers and students are funny things, as we've spent countless other threads discussing. There are some teachers out there who are low enough to foster the appearance of a "relationship" in order to exploit a student. That's not necessarily a student having skewed perception. It might be a teacher having skewed behavior. Both happen. There's emotional misbehavior of all sorts on both sides of the equation, from time to time.

MadamSamba

05-04-2004, 06:22 PM

I agree, Pygmalion. Of course, as Larinda says, there are ethical, wonderful teachers out there. Ninety-nine per cent, perhaps, but it's that small unethical group of bad apples that spoil the whole bunch.

As many of you might, I know of one teacher who has built a successful base as a result.

He flirts outrageously with students, dances with them socially, lures them in as private students (sleeps with some), then ignores them. Most are so besotted, they don't see it or don't want to see it. Either way, it's really sad to see, especially when you know what's going on and especially when the student in question is lonely or flattered by the attention.

But what can you do? It's especially bad when the studio concerned knows about it but does nothing because of the cash-flow.

Larinda McRaven

05-04-2004, 06:40 PM

there are ethical, wonderful teachers out there. Ninety-nine per cent, perhaps, but it's that small unethical group of bad apples that spoil the whole bunch.

But we don't know which one this guy is. We only have her very hurt and angry side of the story.

pygmalion

05-04-2004, 07:20 PM

Good point, Larinda. Like my Dad always used to tell me, every story involving two people has at least three sides. It would be nice to hear from the teacher in question, to hear his side (or to tar and feather him, if he really is a bad guy! :twisted: :lol: :P )

tsb

05-04-2004, 09:02 PM

& i submit that it may be worthwhile for purr to examine what her values, decisions & choices may or may not have contributed to the situation; it takes two to tango.

exactly, while I would never even venture to imply that Purr was responsible for the teachers behavior (!)

i was trying to avoid the same implication. i see that i could have done a better job. <sigh> i need to take up tap dancing...

I would question the fact that she used the word relationship (BIG RED FLAG in my book). This usually tells me that a students perception of the situation is slightly skewed.

i know nothing about the instructor in question. & i try not to draw certain conclusions based on hearing only one side of the story. what i think i know for sure is that purr is uncomfortable with the current dynamics of the relationship with her instructor & i have tried to speak to helping her resolve this in what i consider a healthy way.

I think that this is important for everyone to keep in mind before the name-calling continues. (GR! :wink: ) We have not had personal experiences with this teacher and are simply reacting to one persons interpretation.

hey, we guys have a genetic thing towards rescuing damsels in distress. i've been guilty of it the past - and have had others form their opinion of me in the same kind of scenario.

pygmalion

05-05-2004, 04:37 AM

I think the key is to maintain a balanced point of view. Purr IS upset and angry, and gave us her point of view, quite articulately, I think. All we can do is support Purr make recommendations based on that.

If Purr's not happy with her teacher/student relationship, she needs to move on as soon as she can. (btw, I don't have a problem with the word "relationship," although I can see why Larinda does. To me, there are all kinds of relationships, some personal, some not.)

That said, there are some really bad people out there, making a living in the dance business. I think we'd be kidding ourselves if we denied that. And there are some emotionally needy people out there, buying dance lessons in the name of buying relationships. And, to make it even more confusing, there are LOTS of people out there with friendly, deep, personal relationships with their dance teachers or students that work just fine. It gets complicated.

It's hard to make any judgment without all sides of the story. But, since Purr is here asking for help and support, and the teacher is not, let's just support Purr, eh? Which is not to say we should vilify the teacher in absentia, but that we should try to make useful suggestions to Purr of how to move forward so that she can keep dancing.

Purr

05-05-2004, 06:57 AM

My dancing days are over. :cry:

mamboqueen

05-05-2004, 07:01 AM

no no no no no! You can't quit. Take a sabbatical if you need to, but I guarantee you won't be able to stay away from it.

I'm sorry you had such a difficult time with your instructor, but don't let one person paint a bad picture of the entire group of instructors. You'll find someone else! Just take your lesson from this bad experience, store it in your memory and move on.

pygmalion

05-05-2004, 07:02 AM

I understand, Purr. Please PM me.

Or, I'll be back in the office about noon, and, if you want, I can telephone you then.

cl5814

05-05-2004, 08:00 AM

Purr,
You are at the stage i was at late last year. Threw away my dance shoes so that i can stay away from dance even if i wanted to. I took a 3 month break before slowly getting back into it and of course at a different studio maintaining a low profile of only attending group classes. It did me well. For now, it might be best to quit dancing for a few weeks/months.

tsb

05-05-2004, 08:07 AM

My dancing days are over. I quit last night.

i can't speak for anyone else, but if this really is the best choice for you at this time i can say that i'm glad you found the strength to make this choice.

this has obviously been a difficult time for you & i imagine that we all grieve for your loss and also hope that it won't be a permanent loss.

KevinL

05-05-2004, 08:21 AM

My dancing days are over. I quit last night.

Purr, you made the right choice for you for right now. Take a few weeks or months and then try dancing somewhere else. Perhaps the time away will help you overcome whatever control he had on you, or perhaps you'll refocus on another dance/style/purpose for dancing.

I'm sorry that this one guy has alienated you from dancing to the extent that you have decided to give it up, but I expect that at some point in the future that you will come back to our dancing family.

Good luck,

Kevin

etchuck

05-05-2004, 08:34 AM

Certainly I hope this isn't a permanent loss either. I took a few years' hiatus myself (though it was for different reasons). After I moved to my current position, I took up dancing again.

Of course, I also agree... maybe you should try your hand at another style of dancing. Unless the salsa or swing or contra scenes are that paltry where you are. (Or Flamenco for that matter.)

Genesius Redux

05-05-2004, 10:00 AM

Purr-

Once you've had a little time to collect yourself, feel free to send me a PM. I've known many, many women who have been in your situation who have turned everything around just by switching teachers.

Genesius

peachexploration

05-05-2004, 10:18 AM

I understand your situation all to well. My thoughts & support are with you as well, Purr.

pygmalion

05-05-2004, 11:22 AM

Hi peach! Long time, no see. Hope all's well. :wink: :D

Genesius Redux

05-05-2004, 04:07 PM

tsb

05-05-2004, 07:51 PM

I think that this is important for everyone to keep in mind before the name-calling continues. (GR! :wink: ) We have not had personal experiences with this teacher and are simply reacting to one persons interpretation.

This is true. Which is why I wrote:

Your teacher, as you've described him, is a sleazy, arrogant, self-centered crumb of human excrement who deserves to be flushed away for reasons of simple good husbandry.

If there weren't a whole bunch of teachers out there who fit Purr's profile more or less exactly, this wouldn't even be an issue. But there are. And moreover, they tend to be male instructors--who keep the abusive relationships they have with their students more or less to themselves. The air of privacy allows the abuse to continue unchecked--but as long as there are people out there who don't mind being quite vocal in their contempt for this kind of behavior, there's a chance that people who are in that sort of relationship will discover that they're not alone and don't have to put up with it.

No, we don't know Purr and we don't know her teacher. But we know the situation she describes very well. And it's to the dozens of other readers out there who might be in similar situations but who haven't written that our comments are really directed.

I think it's crucial that people on DF speak out clearly on these sorts of problems. Because we all know full well that the NDCA isn't going to do a bloody thing.

GR, i don't think larinda gave you much wiggle room in how she addressed her comment to you, which i find a little surprising, given what's she contributed otherwise. anyway, from what i glean out of your posts, you & i tend to share the same sensibilities; i would feel a similar sense of outrage were i to hear about a confirmed instance of this sort of thing happening. but i would like to note that while it is quite natural to have an emotional response to an emotional appeal, emotional responses generally hinder the resolution of the issue at hand, and worse yet, often keep us from discerning the actual facts about a situation.

Larinda McRaven

05-05-2004, 09:36 PM

GR, quite sorry if you took offense. I was poking at you lightly in jest, more to make a point about the witch hunt nature of the thread as a whole rather than at your statement individually. And yes you did qualify your statement first.

Back to the origianl premis of th thread. Also you are right, the NDCA probably will not ever do much in regards to its Code Of Ethics. I think it is important to remember that this organization is about registering competitions and competitors. Teachers that say they are certified by the NDCA are probably confused. They are "registered" with the NDCA...as competitors, not certified to teach or run a studio.

If I walk into a competition, then I better be on my best behavior, I am on the NDCAs turf, and probably should follow their rules. But once I leave the only person I have to answer to is Steve (and my mom) when I behave badly.

So holding a "competitive union" accountable for someones business practices does't seem to make sense. BBB or Attorney General, that sounds more correct.

pygmalion

05-06-2004, 06:00 AM

The purpose of the NDCA does put a whole different spin on things, Larinda. Meaning NDCA is, perhaps, not the place to look for resolution of conflicts. Hmm. And the BBB is a good possibility. I wonder if people out there know that you can check with the BBB to see if there are outstanding complaints against a local business (I assume that includes dance studios.) There's even a BBB online, although that works a little differently.

And as far as the witch hunt, well, sorry it appeared that way. That certainly wasn't the intent. Who was it, early in this thread, that said that it's the bad guys you hear about, not the good? I think that's true. The majority of dance teachers out there who do good, honest, fair work end up answering for the bad deeds of the minority. Not fair. You're right.

While this thread was going strong a couple days ago, I actually thought about starting a counter-topic, to talk about all the good dance teachers out there. You know why I didn't? I tried it before, back around Thanksgiving, I think. I got ONE response. ONE. People don't want to talk about the good folks out there. They want to talk about the bad guys. *shrug* Human nature, I guess.

mamboqueen

05-06-2004, 08:09 AM

Hey, I have nothing but good things to say about my teacher. I love him! Errrr...I mean, as a teacher...he's a wonderful teacher and never crosses the lines. Sometimes one of us will slip and say a four-letter word, but he's professional and while he is probably bored teaching me my bronze/silver steps and technique, you would never know it.

Chris Stratton

05-06-2004, 11:02 AM

Back to the origianl premis of th thread. Also you are right, the NDCA probably will not ever do much in regards to its Code Of Ethics. I think it is important to remember that this organization is about registering competitions and competitors. Teachers that say they are certified by the NDCA are probably confused. They are "registered" with the NDCA...as competitors, not certified to teach or run a studio.

Perhaps people should complain to the USISTD then? At least for those whose NDCA directory listing claims certification from that body?

Though for the pro-am role, is there really any difference between maintaining competitor elgibility and being able to teach? True, someone who had their ability to compete revoked could teach social students only, but I would think it would not be helpful to their career.

And the NDCA does actually certify those elgible to judge at its competitions, right?

Larinda McRaven

05-06-2004, 11:19 AM

Um, no you can't really complain to USISTD or ISTD. This organization only certifies you to teach, not that you run a good business. Same goes for DEA, NADTA...These bodies just give teaching tests. As long as you can quote books, answer questions, and demonstrate, then you are certified.

If the NDCA denies someone the ability to register and therefore compete, that woudn't really affect their business. Would anyone even know? And they could still go compete at non-NDC events in the meantime. If someone got revoked for life and they were a real die-hard pro or pro-am competitor, then perhaps their business would drop off or change. But for the aveage teacher who competes with students only a handful of times a year, it just woudn't really matter.

The NDCA does not administer test to judges, competitors, or teachers. They are an umbrella agency. Their member organizations administer tests. The NDCA simply wants you to "register" with them, your intentions for the year. Are you a scrutineer, pro-am competitor, judge, mc...then pay them for the privledge of competing at their competitions.

DanceAm

05-06-2004, 11:21 AM

Customer service is really the major part of my job. The driving rules are 1. The customer is always right. 2. When the customer is wrong, refer to rule 1.

This is a very old saying but I still think it holds true. The students are still customers, they are the ones paying and they deserve the best treatment by the teacher. Not everyone is easy to get along with and I can imagine what a nightmare some students can be. Add the fact that it is a Student/Teacher relationship (yes, relationship), there is a deeper trust built between the teacher and student than between me and let's say the guy giving me my Big Mac. I used to eat more Big Mac's during a week then I took in Dance lessons, so I saw the same McDonald's employee sometimes more than my dance instructor, but this by no means was as deep a relationship as I had with my dance instructor.

Dancing can be more important to the student than it is to the teacher, on an emotional or psychological level, and for the teacher, it is a job or a profession. The code of ethics is a set of guidelines for dance Professionals. It is basically saying, don't get personal, and don't take advantage of the student. Being a dance professional does make him/her act professional, but a dance professional should act professional at all times. The student may look at dance many different ways, a way to relax, get your mind off your daily pressures, reliving stress, sense of accomplishment. Some of us have such bad jobs that pay too well to quit, so an outside activity like dance can be the best escape.

From the students perspective, the teacher is awed and admired for what he knows and teaches. Dancing provides many levels of needs that a student may have. Maslov's hierarchy has 5 levels, the lowest are safety and security, these needs are met by someone having a decent job and place to live, but dancing helps fulfill the other 3 needs, including the top, self-actualization. This is something intangible that by taking lessons and getting better, the student feels a sense of accomplishment and growth. This is when we feel the best about ourselves as human beings. (Not to mention the belonging need is satisfied by making friends at a dance studio, this is important too.) By the teacher facilitating the fulfilling of these higher level needs, the student develops a fondness, like, love, admiration, etc. for the teacher. This is where the obsessivness comes in, almost like an addiction, life is wonderful when we are fulfilling all of our needs, broadening ourselves, growing, being a part of something beautiful, artistic, it is something we don't want to lose. Students will spend more on dance than they can really afford, they will sell things to pay for lessons, they will cash in retirement money, they will beg and borrow, (hopefully not steal.) They may even put their own profession on hold or in the back seat and put dance first. This threatens the foundation levels of safety and security and without perspective, dance is a narcotic that consumes us.

But that is the exteame case, back to the issue, the student is vulnerable once they want and desire to be better at dancing and without professional ethics on the part of the teacher, they can be manipulated.

I was actually lucky in my early days of dance, I ended up switching teachers and after losing the first because she stopped dancing, it seemed like a personal loss, so I never let my relationships with my teachers get too personal. Had I continued on with my first teacher longer, I might have put myself in a position to be taken. My focus and goals were on my dance and it made it easier for me to leave teachers later for better instruction. Better instruction by either more committed teachers, a better studio environment, access to coaches I liked working with. One teacher started to treat us like she owned us, she was late for lessons, one time 59 min late for an hour lesson and acted as if we owed her a living and wanted to know if we could reschedule that day because she expected to make that money. We could have rescheduled, but didn't, she needed to know that our schedule did not revolve around when she decided to think of us. She may have been a very knowledgable and we were just amateurs, but I would rather quit dancing before I put another dime in her pocket.

Too many times, teachers treat their students like children or worse yet, sheep to be sheared, and too often, students put their teacher on a pedistal.

Let's keep it real. Usually we are all grown-ups. A teacher doesn't have to be our best friend, if he/she is, we are deluding ourselves and making ourselves as students ripe for the picking. It is a business relationship, we can be friendly and take pride in each others work and accomplishiments, but it is still a business relationship. We should recognize that our teachers are doing a job, business can be bad at times and they can feel under pressure to sell comps or lessons, but it is not your sole duty to support them. But to enable them to stay in business, it may be that you participate in getting them other students.

There will always be those bad teachers out there and there will be business practices that are listed as unethical, but have been going on for so long, no one thinks of how unethical these practices are. I think the teacher should be responsible for keeping professional distance, but the student should put things in perspective too. The student should be in charge of what he/she spends money and time on, not the teacher. And don't let them hold you hostage by your love and desire to be a better dancer, because having your own peace of mind is more important.

If a student is taken advantage of, like Larinda said, it takes two. I try to see the teachers side as well. But I will not say that the student gets what he/she deserves, being trusting is not unethical, taking advantage of trust is.

Larinda also said it is not the NDCA's job, and I disagree with that. The NDCA is a Professional Organization, and to be a member, should require certain standards of conduct and professionalism by its members. Members, meaning they have the right to refuse membership and the member has the option to leave. In your case Larinda, without the NDCA membership, where could you compete? In that respect, if you have no other avenues to compete, the NDCA is holding you hostage. Actually, I see the code of ethics as minimum standards. Some things are just basic etiquette. The requirement not to disparage (speak negitively) of other studios and professionals is actually something our parents taught us. "If you can't say something nice about someone, you shouldn't say anything at all." In college business courses and selling courses, speaking ill of your competition, no matter what your business, gives a bad impression to your customers. In the end, it is the person speaking ill that looks bad. I wish the presidential candidates saw it that way. And Dance is no different, in fact, since it is also a sport, there is such a thing call good sportsmanship. Something that should be maintained in Dancesport, not like the fight that almost broke out between J. and T. at Heritage right on the dance floor.

Wow, time to get off my soapbox. I hope I didn't offend anyone too much.

pygmalion

05-06-2004, 11:26 AM

DanceAm. :notworth: Very, very well said. :D

Purr

05-06-2004, 11:33 AM

DanceAm, I think you've made a lot of good points.

pygmalion

05-06-2004, 11:38 AM

If the NDCA denies someone the ability to register and therefore compete, that woudn't really affect their business. Would anyone even know? And they could still go compete at non-NDC events in the meantime. If someone got revoked for life and they were a real die-hard pro or pro-am competitor, then perhaps their business would drop off or change. But for the aveage teacher who competes with students only a handful of times a year, it just woudn't really matter..

This is SO true. The studio at which I was so badly treated by a teacher had no affiliation with the NDCA, or any other dance governing organization, for that matter. Some of the teachers there probably didn't even know NDCA exists, much less the students. I'm not kidding.

An NDCA sanction means something only to a person who stands to lose something by withdrawal of NDCA approval. That's by no means all of the dance teachers out there.

Added to which, and I know this is a hot button issue for some, there are many non-NDCA comps out there. If you're a pro who's been sanctioned, you could just take your students there.

Larinda McRaven

05-06-2004, 11:41 AM

DanceAm, I agree with everything you have said. Except that still there is misunderstanding of the NDCA. I am not a member. They do not rule me. I simply pay them for the ability to use their organization for competitions, I register with them that this year I will compete with Steve and with my students. My students register with them that they will compete am-am, and one of them will scrutineer. We do not belong nor are we members of this organization

If I am registered with them I can compete elsewhere, if I am not registred with them I can still compete elsewhere. All they offer me is a competition where I know that certain requirements will be meet. Judges who are certified by one of the "Member Organizations", 20 minute breaks between rounds, water at the on-deck area, a schedule time-line that is pretty well kept, saftey pins for my students or Steves numbers...

There once was a competitor in the Smooth with us. This person was brutal, knocking us down all the time, not fighting, just being a bully on th floor. This person was taken aside after one of our peers took a pretty nasty fall because of the aggressive nature of this person. This person was told that if they so much as breezed past another one of us, the competition would be stopped, and the NDCA Oserver would personally come down and yank this person off the floor. This is what I pay the NDCA for.

Still if we are talking about business practices the BBB and Attorney General are the offices that handle these things.

Larinda McRaven

05-06-2004, 12:08 PM

An analogy that I can think of (without too many holes) is the DMV. I register myself and my car with them, but I am not a member of the DMV, I simply pay to use their servies.

They have a set of rules that we follow while we use the roads that they provide. They can give me a ticket if I break the laws on their roads. Even if they revoke my license I can ride my bike or take dirt roads. But they can't give me a ticket if I am a car salesman with shady practices.

Porfirio Landeros

05-06-2004, 12:20 PM

I agree with DanceAm, that just because someone is your dance teacher, doesn't mean you put them on a sacred pedistal. You should approach your dance teacher just as you would any professional relationship. Just because your Dr. touches your in certain places doesn't make you lovers. If you choose to date your Dr. (or dance teacher), it should be because you developed a trusting relationship based on REAL qualities and values, not because of touching or flirting (or choreography).

With that said, I think it IS possible to be friends or intimate with dance teachers, and that the fratinization policy exists to protect the teachers/students from misunderstandings.

As for the NDCA's role, they are more like an advertising pool, for comp organizers, studios, and teachers to create/maintain business. If they were really a member organization, you would be able to vote or run for a board position. I'm glad they have a code of ethics, but they are not the police. In fact, the BBB isn't the police either. So, you need to pick the appropriate response to the appropriate violation. If someone didn't deliver the product you were paying for, try mediation with the BBB, and if they stole from you or violated you, try the police. If they broke your heart, see a counselor.

pygmalion

05-06-2004, 12:28 PM

I don't see a clear path for addressing dance teacher/student conflicts, at least in the U.S. :?

I wonder if that's also true in other places around the world. Do the governing bodies in European and other countries actually have authority to discipline dance teachers or resolve student/teacher conflicts? Does anybody know?

Genesius Redux

05-06-2004, 12:37 PM

GR, quite sorry if you took offense. I was poking at you lightly in jest, more to make a point about the witch hunt nature of the thread as a whole rather than at your statement individually. And yes you did qualify your statement first.

Oh, sweetie--I know that. Darn emessages--I just don't like using the smiley faces. No, I know you were playing, but there also was a more serious aspect to the discussion, which is the way business is sometimes transacted and the relationship of that to the code of ethics. I do feel many of the situations that get described on the forums might be read differently if we had all the facts. What we tend to respond to is the situation as it is described, establishing a kind of general forum protocol rather than an interpretation of any specific situation.

It's been my pleasure and my privilege to have teachers who wouldn't ever abuse a friendship for financial gain, and I try not to abuse a friendship for free advice. Ideally, I think, this is the sort of thing that can develop between teachers and students--but just like friends are unique, so different teachers and different students will have different styles of friendship. A code of ethics that doesn't allow for personal relationships doesn't seem to be worth very much. Absolutist approaches like that are doomed to failure, and will never succeed in addressing the very real issues that keep coming up.

Oh, and tsb--with respect to emotional responses and outrage. My people are Neapolitan. It's not personal. It's strictly business. 8)

Genesius Redux

05-06-2004, 12:40 PM

Just because your Dr. touches your in certain places doesn't make you lovers.

Dang. So my relationship with my proctologist doesn't mean anything? :wink:

pygmalion

05-06-2004, 01:20 PM

Oh yeah, and one more thing about grievances against teachers. If a lot of people are like me, few grievances would ever get filed. I just wouldn't do that. If you can't say something nice, and so on. I just do what's called damning with faint praise.

It goes like this. "Oh, Jenn, I heard you were dancing at studio A. Are they good?" "Uh. Yes. They're good at what they do. I've moved on to studio B since then, though, and I really love it. Let me get you studio B's card. They're fantastic, and SO nice." Studio A is now out of the picture, and I never had to say a bad word. Sneaky, aren't I? :twisted: The thing is, in the dance business, word of mouth is everything, or close. So who needs NDCA to sanction anybody? It might be nice to have an organization with disciplinary power, but word of mouth is a powerful thing within itself. 8)

Oh yeah, and one more thing. What do teachers do when they have legitimate grievances against students? Don't they deserve some recourse, as well?

Porfirio Landeros

05-06-2004, 02:12 PM

Dang. So my relationship with my proctologist doesn't mean anything? :wink:
That doesn't mean you can't enjoy it ;);)

Now, grievances against students... isn't that why the instructor starts acting mean an abusive? Yeah, you make the student hate you and move on to someone else. The indirect option is soooo much easier :twisted:

DanceAm

05-06-2004, 02:36 PM

From the web site, under Registration, I am cutting and pasting the following:

Membership Registration

Larinda, you are registering to become a member.

Also, the NDCA also publishishes the following:

The National Dance Council of America (NDCA) is the official governing body for dancing in the United States.

Its purpose is to provide, on a nation-wide basis, a united inter-association agency to represent the interests of those in the dance profession and other dance-related entities and organizations and to act as the agency for cooperation with similar councils in other countries.

To also conduct a continuing campaign for the establishment and the maintenance of high standards in dance education, and to acquaint the public with the nature and benefits of these standards and to recognize the status of qualified dance teachers affiliated to member organizations of this Council.

From what you are saying, you are giving no power to the NDCA, yet by regestering and paying, you are supporting them.

Not to single you out Larinda, I am not trying to pick on you personally and I am sure you don't need an organization to tell you how to act professionally. My impression of you is that at the higher end of the spectrum, but I am sure your comments are probably similar to most with regards to what the NDCA really is. The NDCA, though it wants to claim power and professes a cause, someone like you I respect as a professional, doesn't support any authority of the NDCA over its members conducting business. Without true support, especially by its members, NDCA membership registration is just a database of names. I fully understand what Larinda is saying, and what I am truely understanding is, professionals only register because they have to in order to compete. Collectively, they don't recognize any authority of what the NDCA stands for unless they are in an environment where the NDCA has a presence.

(Inspired by Jack Nicholson in a few good men)
In the case you cited, when you are in competition, you want the NDCA there. Deep down in places that you only discuss at parties, you despise its existance but compete freely in the environment it tries to ensure fair and equitible and safe treatment to its "registrants". But in the arena of conducting business, where revoking your registration would be one heck of a punishment, none of the professionals sanction the authority of the NDCA to revoke the registration of those that take advantage of their students off the comp floor. So the NDCA is convenient for you when you fear for your bodily health well being, but when it comes to protecting the student, the professionals don't want to know about or deal with other's situations. The BBB or like organizations only work within the Law. What is legal and what is ethical has a large disparity. And in the worst situations, dance students that have been taken advantage of, act more like rape victims, they don't want to publicize what happened because they don't want to discuss what has been tramatic or embarrising for them.

I think our society has lost the meaning of Professionalism. With big sports stars making obscene amounts of money yet having indicriminate sex with hundreds or thousands of women, children out of wedlock, accusations of rape, verbally abusing officials, it is no wonder that Dance Professionals lose sight at the need for an affiliation that not just publishes a code of ethics on its website, but enforces standards of its registrants. Dance professionals, the good ones, should want an organization to weed out the unethical ones. Your fees are more than just an expense, you should get something for that and I would feel cheated if I didn't. These people and these stories are giving the students and general public the impression that the dance industry is full of con men. In my industry, we are pictured as thick glassed nerds with pocket protectors, though I don't wear glasses or pocket protectors, I much rather prefer an image like this rather than that of someone who takes advantage of lonely old ladies. This is a chance for the dance professionals to recreate their image, but if all you want is a Policemen at a comp, your image outside the comp is made up by the dissatisfied students that make a stink.

pygmalion

05-06-2004, 05:39 PM

pygmalion

05-06-2004, 06:08 PM

Now, grievances against students... isn't that why the instructor starts acting mean an abusive? Yeah, you make the student hate you and move on to someone else. The indirect option is soooo much easier :twisted:

You joke, but it's serious, man. I've seen a teacher do this to students he wasn't allowed to dump, but he didn't like. Of course, that was the same guy who verbally abused me for months, so I guess I should consider the source. But that's exactly what he did. I told the story in another thread, so I won't retell.

My question was serious, though. I think a lot of teachers, particularly lower level staff in studios, probably get stuck with horrible students -- not bad dancers, necessarily, but really mean or difficult people. Why don't teachers have channels to address their issues? Or do they? I think they should.

pygmalion

05-06-2004, 06:12 PM

The thing is, at least as I understand it, that NDCA has no power to police, except at NDCA sanctioned comps. Perhaps NDCA should change their mission statement, since they can't back it up. Individual NDCA members or competitors can do little to change the status quo, that I can think of, and I'm not sure they should be held responsible to do so. Not sure who should, to be honest, but individual members? I don't think it's realistic to expect them to do anything more than pay their dues and go compete in peace. Why should they? How could they?

I hate quoting myself -- it just feels weird. I'm just trying to give context here. Can NDCA do something about enforcing ethical standards? Should they? If not NDCA, then who? Is there some governing organization out there that has the credibility to enforce fair treatment of students and teachers? Or is the status quo destined to stay?

Thoughts?

KevinL

05-07-2004, 07:04 AM

Can NDCA do something about enforcing ethical standards? Should they? If not NDCA, then who? Is there some governing organization out there that has the credibility to enforce fair treatment of students and teachers? Or is the status quo destined to stay?

Thoughts?

It is my opinion that you can't enforce ethical behaviour. We have enough trouble "enforcing" laws against speeding, and can't enforce laws against abusing/raping/murdering people until after the crime is commited, and then it isn't enforcing the law, but punishing the perpetrator.

The best we can do is to each, individually, act in as ethical a manner as possible and expect the same behaviour from others (while protecting ourselves from those who might be unethical.)

Kevin

etchuck

05-07-2004, 07:43 AM

Well, sorry to have jumped into this discussion late.

The type of improper behavior that occurs in a studio should be resolved at the level of the studio. NDCA, ISTD, USABDA, or whatever "governing bodies" do have have rights to shut down or close businesses if there is a breach of ethics. (The AMA has no power to shut down hospitals.)

Now, I'm not sure about whether the BBB is the right thing to do either. It has to be a serious breach of business practice (not delivering what the business claims to offer) to get them to do anything... but the BBB won't call the police or anything that I know of.

Essentially, the people who are expected to enforce the code of ethics is the teachers of that studio, with responsibility of enforcement being the studio owner. Unless we're talking crossing legal lines (discrimination, harassment), any breach of ethics has to be taken up with that person. If a resolution to the problem is not concluded, you have a right (or frankly obligation) to leave the studio and tell others about your experience. The dollars going to a studio is how you reward or punish for professional conduct, as will the reputation of said persons involved.

mamboqueen

05-07-2004, 08:52 AM

You would have to hope that dance teachers/studios would not want to risk (a) a bad reputation in their field - and news does have a way of traveling fast, especially when it's not good; and (b) loss of business. I mean, to quote a famous southerner, "stupid is as stupid does", right???!!

Porfirio Landeros

05-07-2004, 10:44 AM

If a dance professional's primary source of income is competing, the NDCA could revoke his/her competitive status, leaving the dancer to try to compete on another circuit. There really aren't that many other (ballroom) circuits out there, and even if there were, at least the NDCA would have cleansed itself of a bad apple.

But, if the professional is just an instructor, then there is little the NDCA can do. Instructors don't have to be part of any organization to conduct their business, so it's a buyer-beware situation.

pygmalion

05-08-2004, 06:25 AM

Essentially, the people who are expected to enforce the code of ethics is the teachers of that studio, with responsibility of enforcement being the studio owner. Unless we're talking crossing legal lines (discrimination, harassment), any breach of ethics has to be taken up with that person. If a resolution to the problem is not concluded, you have a right (or frankly obligation) to leave the studio and tell others about your experience. The dollars going to a studio is how you reward or punish for professional conduct, as will the reputation of said persons involved.

I thought about this all day before responding, etchuck. I hope my response makes sense. I agree and disagree with what you're saying here.

When they experience bad behavior, I agree that students do have responsibilties. I think I said this before, but I feel their first responsibility is to confront the teacher and try to resolve things. If that doesn't work, the studio management is the second step. If that doesn't work, vote with your feet and find another studio.

In instances of blatant abuse, you may be right. The student may be obliged to tell others, to help protect people from having the same bad experience. To be honest, though, I'm glad I didn't have to make that choice. Around the same time I left my bad-guy teacher, he quit teaching dance, for unrelated reasons. So I didn't have to worry about his hurting others.

In instances of subtle abuse, though, I'm not sure I agree. These situations are SO fuzzy, sometimes. Sometimes, it's all a matter of differing perceptions. So, in that case, unless I'm absolutely sure I'm right, I feel it's my obligation to keep my mouth shut. For the student, there's very little fallout. For a teacher in a fuzzy situation, there's possible damage to their reputation and loss of their livelihood. Unless I'm absolutelty certain I'm right AND the teacher had bad intentions, I'd keep subtle things to myself.

pygmalion

05-08-2004, 06:50 AM

One more thing I'll say about this topic. I think there's a common perception that neurotic women are the ones primarily affected by dance teacher abuse. Not true, in my experience and observation. Vulnerable people, men and women, can be affected.

Before I say more, another disclaimer: Most dance teachers are honorable, upright people.

I think a lot of people start dancing when they're at a low point or crossroads in their lives, and being at a crossroads makes people vulnerable. When I started dancing, my relationship with my SO was on the rocks, my only brother had just been permanently disabled, I had lost a lucrative job and many friends when the R&D lab I worked in shut down, I had just been diagnosed with a chronic illness that will probably blind me one day. I was the walking wounded, and dance became my lifeline. (Mixed metaphors, I know. Hope there are no English Lit professors around. :wink: ) Unfortunately for me, the dance teacher holding my lifeline happened to be an unscrupulous person. Unfortunately for him, that low state only lasted so long, before I began to see what was really going on. :roll:

The point is, it could happen to anyone. Fortunately, most dance teachers out there are not looking to exploit the vulnerable. They're looking to teach people to dance. 8)

etchuck

05-08-2004, 01:51 PM

In instances of subtle abuse, though, I'm not sure I agree. These situations are SO fuzzy, sometimes. Sometimes, it's all a matter of differing perceptions. So, in that case, unless I'm absolutely sure I'm right, I feel it's my obligation to keep my mouth shut. For the student, there's very little fallout. For a teacher in a fuzzy situation, there's possible damage to their reputation and loss of their livelihood. Unless I'm absolutelty certain I'm right AND the teacher had bad intentions, I'd keep subtle things to myself.

The not-so-obvious white-and-black cases are the problematic ones, and are obviously the most relevant ones. In these situations, it is really important that you make sure that everyone is clear on the expectations of the relationship, and I suggest you discuss it from the start and occasionally (once a week or once a month... whatever, but frequently). I would think that for a teacher in a fuzzy situation, it is important for him/her to understand the consequences if anyone thinks that his actions could be misconstrued as harassment or anything "more" than just a simple professional relationship. Certainly the teacher also must retain the right to refuse to accept a student if he/she thinks the student is not able to accept a simply professional relationship.

You just have to be diligent and clear with what your goals are as a student and that they are being met by your instructors.

This is also an important reason why if at all possible you have more than one instructor. In academia and perhaps elsewhere, the likelihood of abuse in professional relationships is much smaller if you have multiple mentors, especially if you are just starting out. At least for me, a teacher-student relationship becomes much less "personal" and more "professional," and secondly, the second instructor can help you if there are problems with the first.

pygmalion

05-08-2004, 05:11 PM

Good suggestion, etchuck. 8) Multiple teachers have been my saving grace many times in the past. :wink: :)

pygmalion

05-08-2004, 07:35 PM

btw. I wonder what would happen if someone added this topic to the agenda of the NDCA summer meeting that's scheduled for July. The deadline for agenda item submission is June 1. So much for,"there's nothing we can do." :wink: :lol:

pygmalion

05-10-2004, 10:15 AM

What!?! No one's up for the challenge? :lol: :wink:

Porfirio Landeros

05-10-2004, 10:25 AM

What!?! No one's up for the challenge? :lol: :wink:

Of course there are people up for the challenge ;), but no individual can bring up their suggestions. It has to go through a member organization. If you are a member of USABDA, then you have to convince the USABDA member attending the NDCA's meeting to bring up this issue on your behalf. If you are a member of PDF, you have to have the PDF member bring it up on your behalf. And there we have the "problem". The NDCA only listens to the member organizations, not their registered individuals. Once again proving that the NDCA is more of a trade-organization than a member organization looking out for the needs of individuals. Don't get me wrong, the NDCA serves it's purpose, but you really need to look toward your member org for enforcement of any rules/policies.

pygmalion

05-10-2004, 10:28 AM

etchuck

05-10-2004, 10:34 AM

Good suggestion, etchuck. 8) Multiple teachers have been my saving grace many times in the past. :wink: :)

Thanks. Obviously "it takes a village to raise a child"... so it should follow it should also work for developing good dancers, scientists, lawyers, ... .

Porfirio Landeros

05-10-2004, 10:57 AM

I was just teasing. :wink: But this thread has convinced me that you're right. NDCA talks a good game, but it's really not the appropriate place to look for conflict resolution. That's not its intended purpose.

Incidently, the Professional Dancers Federation (PDF) is now accepting amateur memberships. This is just one more way to get things heard by the NDCA and competition organizers. If your member org isn't really getting your issues heard, you can always try another organization. The PDF was instrumental in the past in getting many of the things competitors now enjoy (mandatory break times between rounds, water in the ballroom, to name a couple).

SDsalsaguy

05-10-2004, 11:40 AM

Yup, the PDF is definately the closest thing to an actual voice for the competitors (and other professionals...and now amateurs too) out there!

DanceAm

05-10-2004, 01:25 PM

If the PDF is seen as a rival organization and they start to upset the status quo, being affiated with it could hurt you. If certain professionals are involved in it, especially judges, it could tend to hurt your marks. It seems that things are political enough and there are always complaints, but if the PDF would actually go after someone because of aledged misconduct, the NDCA might get more involved and its members might retaliate in ways that might hurt a competing professional that is also a member of the other side.

I am not against the PDF, I just don't know if a second organization is the answer.

This whole idea is much like the Baseball commission. In the movie, 8 Men Out, about the White Sox players involved with betting on baseball, it was shown that they appointed a Commissioner, so the sport could govern itself rather than have the Federal Government step in. This commission is also what is keeping Pete Rose out of the Hall of Fame. Misconduct, especially of this magnatude, should be taken seriously.

Dancesport itself needs its own governing body, and like the NBA, NCAA, NASCAR, it would give more credibility to Dancesport and even be able to promote it. The NDCA has had little progress of promoting Dancesport and making it a bigger spectator event in other media, like TV. USABDA has recently shown that it makes decisions based largly on its "Social Dance" membership than its smaller "Dancesport Competitors" group. With Dancesport Pros relying on teaching and coaching to "Live on", this is a major part of Dancesport and I think should be governed or at least self monitored by an appointed agency.

It would be an agency to protect the livelyhood of professionls, not to control them. The next scandal that hits 20/20 or Dateline would be devistating to those just getting by in the dance business and likely to still adversely affect those involved with teaching and coaching.

Larinda McRaven

05-10-2004, 01:29 PM

OK, I have made several calls and spoken with an officer and someone who is an immediate family member of an officer. Here is the word.

1. I am a registrant, not a member. The website has a semantics error and will be updated. It was an oversight on their behalf and they are grateful that we have brought it to their attention.

2. The members of NDCA are the member organizations.. Terpsichore, ISTD, PDF... not individual people.

3. If you have a complaint you would go to the member organization that you are a member of. You then convince them that you have a worthy complaint, and they will represent your view at the next NDCA meeting.

4. If you do not belong to a Member Organization, the NDCA has a Dancesport Council with several representatives that you may address directly.

5. You may also contact the offenders Member Organization and ask them to sanction the offender. (This is assuming that the offender is even a member of a member organization or teaching organization.)

6. To compete at one of the NDCA recognized competitions you must register with them.

7. The only power they wield is to withdraw someones registration or sanction them. Which only impacts the offender in relation to NDCA events.

8. If a teacher or studio has broken the law you may go to the police. The NDCA is NOT the Dance Police (nor do they want to be). They simply govern the competitive aspect of Dancesport.

more to come when I get some time to go over more notes from the phone calls

Chris Stratton

05-10-2004, 01:44 PM

This would seem to suggest that the ISTD actually is an appropriate place to take complaints after all.

The ISTD doesn't just administer exams, they actually are a membership organization for dance teachers, unlike the NDCA. And they have a track record of insisting that people who aren't dues current are not allowed to claim their exam-certifications as a credential. Also note the word 'society' in the organization's name - a society should expect some basic standards of conduct form its members.

Anther little oddity: the suggestion to go through channels via the complainer's member organization could be literally interpreted to mean one should take complaints againt pro's up with USABDA. That's right - USABDA is the NDCA member organization which represents the interests of amateurs.... though I think we all realize the relationship is very strained.

cl5814

05-10-2004, 01:44 PM

Thanks Larinda.

DanceAm

05-10-2004, 02:32 PM

Thanks Larinda, this is very enlightening.

But like Chris stated, amateurs could become members of USABDA and go through USABDA.

USABDA has in the past publicized misconduct of professionals and studios, but there is no real punitive action they can take. USABDA has mentioned several times of offenders still being allowed to dance at NDCA events even after formal complaints and investigations have been submitted. So the NDCA seems to turn a deaf ear to USABDA, especially as of late because it allowed amateur championship athletes to teach to suppliment but not exceed costs of competing. For about 80,000 dollars one year of combined income of all amateurs teaching in the United States, they were worried that this would hurt the income other teachers. Yet most of this income is turned right around back into the dance community in the form of lessons and costumes, practice time. A smaller portion would go to travel.

I see that the pros would be giving up autonomy and control if unified under a governing organization, and USABDA has no control over Professionals. USABDA will do its best to unite amateurs and students against studios and teachers who have less than honorable ethics and submit these findings to the NDCA, but other than that, they can't do much.

But I still think it is in the best interest of professionals to have someone watching who they are being associated with. All will suffer from bad publicity and these individuals are free to pack up and move to another city and do the same thing. Before they leave town, they will sell a bunch of packages and leave town before any lessons are actually taught. Some dance teachers have taught out the lessons some of these individuals paid for even though that studio owner has not paid the teacher. The teacher in this case is one trying to make good on the misconduct of another and USABDA has mentioned this as well.

pygmalion

05-10-2004, 04:29 PM

Thanks Larinda, this is very enlightening.

Yes thanks, Larinda. I really appreciate having you around. You help give a balanced perspective to a lot of these issues, and, in cases like this, it sure is nice to have someone with enough clout to call the big wigs and ask. :wink: 8) Thank you. :D

Some dance teachers have taught out the lessons some of these individuals paid for even though that studio owner has not paid the teacher. The teacher in this case is one trying to make good on the misconduct of another and USABDA has mentioned this as well.

I feel honor bound to tell the other side of the story here. It just goes to show how convoluted the whole issue can get. The studio where I observed all the bad behavior and sleazy sales techniques also did this -- fulfilled the contracts of students whose former teacher had gone out of business, shut down the studio and literally fled town, defaulting on many contracts.

There's a dichotomy here. Nice and sleazy seem to go hand in hand. It appears to me that otherwise nice people somehow get sucked into semi-shady ways of doing business, because of the way the dance business, particularly within the studio system, works. It doesn't seem right, somehow. :? I have to say that the dance studio where I had all of my bad experiences was run by some of the nicest people I've ever met. They just knew the realities of surviving in the dance business, and ran their business accordingly. They genuinely believed they had to make that choice, in the name of "doing business." :? I don't think they saw any other option but that business model. *shrug*