HELP no can do at close embrace [Archive]

Lilly_of_the_valley

02-02-2009, 02:27 PM

Here 2 years of group classes and 3 privates. I can't do close embrace well. :confused:The privates teacher would not do it with me because in her opinion you have to become proficient in open first. Also she said our height difference precluded it.

When I go to local milongas everyone does closed and I don't fit in at all. :(
It has been a while since I tried it and it was awful I could not move having a person pasted to me.

What am I doing wrong here. HELP!

I think maybe to just bite the bullet and do closed from now on until I get it or I fear I never will?

OMG get a new teacher. Since you are saying that close embrace dancing is present at local milongas, somebody certainly is out there teaching it. Hint: ask people whose dancing you like to watch where they have taken lessons.

Steve Pastor

02-02-2009, 02:27 PM

Sounds like you haven't found the right teacher(s).
"Close embrace" with weight sharing works for me. "Close embrace" without weight sharing never worked for me, and still doesn't.
I started over again with "close embrace", but what we know as apilado, where weight sharing is defining characteristic, after a full year of lessons that had "close embrace" thrown in.
It pretty much comes down to, you can't make your partner "share weight" with you. There are tricks you can try, but they are just that, tricks.
For me, I can converse if you want to talk apilado. If you just say "close embrace"....

Chris Stratton

02-02-2009, 02:28 PM

It would seem like you need someone you can relax around in order to work on this... a teacher of more compatible height, friend, etc...

Lilly_of_the_valley

02-02-2009, 02:34 PM

I will be watching this thread for sure. Tango leaders seem to hit a brick wall after
so many months of trying hard. I know I did and it feels like nothing will work.
Hopefully, someone can give you the right direction from here. And I hope it isn't 'find a good teacher' , it sounds like you've already had enough of that.

I am sorry to dissapoint. But a teacher who claims after 2 years of group lessons and some privates her student is not proficient enough to start close embrace? and that the height difference would prevent from it? I have seen teachers who start teaching close right away, and quite successfully so.

IMO she is just not comfortable teaching him close, for whatever reason ( I may think of a few).

Gssh

02-02-2009, 02:52 PM

Something is missing here: What do all the other students in your group classes/from the same teacher do? I have seen a few tango communities where the open-embrace and the close-embrace milongas were quite segregated, but your teacher should be able to steer you towards a milonga where you fit in. If the only reason you want to do close embrace is to dance at milongas i would first see if there are open embrace milongas - go where your teacher and your fellow students go.

Some people don't like close embrace - if your teacher strongly prefers open embrace you are probably out of luck if you want to learn that style from her. I then second LotV's idea of asking where all the people in the milongas have learned close embrace from.

(I personally found that trying to learn different aspects of tango from the people in the community that enjoy them most was a good strategy for me - my dancing is not as deep as it could be if i sticked with one person, but the width really helps making social dancing fun).

Gssh

Re. Height difference - the only time when it becomes hard to dance close embrace is if the follower is a head taller than me - and even then the difficulty is mainly that is is hard to navigate as you can't see anything. The easiest solution for that is for me to dance a short zig-zag along the line of dance, i.e. start dancing in 45 degree towards the edge of the dance floor (or away from the dance floor), so you can look to the side to see what is happenign in the line of dance, and after 2 steps either do a turn, or side steps to get back to your starting distance from the edge (looking to the other side to see whats happening there). Actually the 8CB (even with backstep!) works nicely for that: two steps towards the middle of the dancefloor, and then sidesteps and backsteps that get you back to the edge. and the bakcstep is relatively safe, because it goes not against the line of dance, but almost perpendicular to it.

Captain Jep

02-02-2009, 02:55 PM

Hi Aaah

Yes at first it can seem pretty overwhelming. Most of my local classes are open embrace so it wasnt until I started travelling that I realised how important it is to master close embrace. I remember going down to Devon in 2005 (where it is practically all close embrace dancing) and wondering where it all had gone wrong - what had I been doing for the last 2 years?

I'm no teacher but here are some things that I have found helpful :
- Dont get flustered by the physical connection (see other threads) : try and adopt a Zen like calm when you are leading close embrace ...
- Close embrace forces you to lead from the chest. In open embrace it is possible to lead with a combination of chest and arms. That's much harder in close embrace. So make sure the chest lead is clear. Helpful things are :
- Stand erect (dont compromise your height)
- Feel macho (you are your chest!)
- If you lead a rotation, the chest lead should be small. If your chest is the centre of the circle and the ladies chest is the perimeter, you dont have to rotate very far in order to lead a turn. So work at keeping this small and concise.
- You must be firmly grounded in close embrace. Work at stepping into the ground and leading from the ground (all the good things that people have spoken about in other threads).
- Keep movements simple. In close embrace you can concentrate on walking patterns rather than figures. Small is beautiful. Become obsessed with musicality.

I hope this helps :)

Captain Jep

02-02-2009, 02:59 PM

I am sorry to dissapoint. But a teacher who claims after 2 years of group lessons and some privates her student is not proficient enough to start close embrace? and that the height difference would prevent from it? I have seen teachers who start teaching close right away, and quite successfully so.

IMO she is just not comfortable teaching him close, for whatever reason ( I may think of a few).

Yes I agree - it sounds like a bit of a cop out. The ideal height difference for me is 3-5 inches. It's difficult to dance well close with a height difference of 10 inches + - but it is possible ...

dchester

02-02-2009, 03:02 PM

Here 2 years of group classes and 3 privates. I can't do close embrace well. :confused:The privates teacher would not do it with me because in her opinion you have to become proficient in open first. Also she said our height difference precluded it.

When I go to local milongas everyone does closed and I don't fit in at all. :(
It has been a while since I tried it and it was awful I could not move having a person pasted to me.

What am I doing wrong here. HELP!

I think maybe to just bite the bullet and do closed from now on until I get it or I fear I never will? Find a new teacher ASAP!!!

Mario7

02-02-2009, 07:24 PM

My suggestion: try this;
go to this website;
http://www.tangoandchaos.org
read the chapters on embrace and technique. You are familiar enough with the basics to see the worth of this new information. Then, find someone who can work with you on these fine points...someone who
believes in 'good technique' for close embrace. Please, keep us informed
of your progress...this thread can go on another 2 years easily.:cool:
Here's another idea; Go to YouTube, look up the two videos of Tony Fan dancing with Susana Miller
and watch them...perhaps, you've never seen really hot, satisfying dancing in close embrace.... then, if you can describe what the problem is...I'm sure someone here can help you.
...some people are against internet learning (I wonder why?)...I'm not.

Ampster

02-02-2009, 08:08 PM

Here 2 years of group classes and 3 privates. I can't do close embrace well. :confused:The privates teacher would not do it with me because in her opinion you have to become proficient in open first. Also she said our height difference precluded it.

When I go to local milongas everyone does closed and I don't fit in at all. :(
It has been a while since I tried it and it was awful I could not move having a person pasted to me.

What am I doing wrong here. HELP!

I think maybe to just bite the bullet and do closed from now on until I get it or I fear I never will?

Here's Ampster's 2 cents...

As has been said by the others, find a teacher who knows how to dance close embrace (i.e. apilado, milonguero)
Height is not a problem. If you can get one eyaball over her shoulder, your OK. If you can't do half turns. It's all a matter of adaptation
When first delving into close embrace, concentrate on walking, and synchopating. Forget about the other stuff for now. Add them in when your comfortable with walking in close embrace
Your teacher is not wrong with learning open first theory. When you go into close reduce the size to an eith of what she taught... Only after you learn how to walk in close embrace.

Here's my personal close embrace epiphany: Going back to basics, Milonguero Style! (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=27415)

ant

02-02-2009, 11:01 PM

(i.e. apilado, milonguero)

I am about to start learning close embrace and go to different classes. Are the two styles compatable when learning or do you stick to one or the other. If you should stick to one style can anybody suggest which one is the best to start with please?

Ampster

02-03-2009, 01:52 AM

I am about to start learning close embrace and go to different classes. Are the two styles compatable when learning or do you stick to one or the other. If you should stick to one style can anybody suggest which one is the best to start with please?

They are very closely related to each other. I interchange them readily depending on whom I dance with. Don't worry about the differences for now. Learn what you can. Close embrace is close embrace, it will evolve and you'll eventually figure it out.

Tango is a dynamic learning process. Its not a stratified form.

newbie

02-03-2009, 03:21 AM

Yes some teachers prefer to keep it very open. Once, my (private class) teacher just broke the embrace in the middle of a sequence, telling that she would never dance that close in a student-teacher context. And I was in a mere V-shape embrace, no chest contact or anything. Find a teacher who teaches close embrace if that's what you want to learn. And when in a milonga, what you can do is getting a bit closer each time. After a few weeks your right hand will be on the lady's, right shoulderblade instead of her left.

Captain Jep

02-03-2009, 03:40 AM

bordertangoman

02-03-2009, 03:43 AM

I agree with Cap Jep but have added a few things

Yes at first it can seem pretty overwhelming. Most of my local classes are open embrace so it wasnt until I started travelling that I realised how important it is to master close embrace. I remember going down to Devon in 2005 (where it is practically all close embrace dancing) and wondering where it all had gone wrong - what had I been doing for the last 2 years?:)
I had a similar experience. my close embrace started to develop when I learned milonga (I have Alex Krebs to thank for that!)
- Dont get flustered by the physical connection (see other threads) : try and adopt a Zen like calm when you are leading close embrace ...
Dont be discouraged because you are finding it difficult. I have seen some unlikely people become adept at close embrace (including myself). Be patient and gentle with yourself but keep practicing.
- - Close embrace forces you to lead from the chest.?:)
If you are taller than the follower you need to think about leading from your solar plexus- ie a lower centre of gravity. Oscar whassisname illustrates this on youtube. there's a link somewhere....

In open embrace it is possible to lead with a combination of chest and arms. That's much harder in close embrace. So make sure the chest lead is clear. Helpful things are :
- Stand erect (dont compromise your height)
- Feel macho (you are your chest!)
- If you lead a rotation, the chest lead should be small. If your chest is the centre of the circle and the ladies chest is the perimeter, you dont have to rotate very far in order to lead a turn. So work at keeping this small and concise.
- You must be firmly grounded in close embrace. Work at stepping into the ground and leading from the ground (all the good things that people have spoken about in other threads).:)

an exercise to help this is get someone your own size preferably a (heavy) man put his hands on the top of your hip bones and get him to resist forwards and downwards as you walk. All your steps then have to come out of the ground in order to move. In my experience it is one of the most successful ways to instil groundedness though for turns you just have to practice.

- Keep movements simple. In close embrace you can concentrate on walking patterns rather than figures. Small is beautiful. Become obsessed with musicality. Start working on parts of steps; imagine a step is made of four parts which you can dance. This is what cut steps are. Also you need to make small clear impulses with your body to help these work; try stiffeneing up your hips for sharper faster beats/movements and soften your hips for regular beats.

I too hope this helps

Heather2007

02-03-2009, 04:27 AM

Here 2 years of group classes and 3 privates. I can't do close embrace well. :confused:The privates teacher would not do it with me because in her opinion you have to become proficient in open first. Also she said our height difference precluded it.

Your teacher is not entirely wrong (or right). It depends. If I see that a student is still struggling to get the connection in the open then I have them remain in the open until they do. I then "talk" them into a close as they dance - step by step.

When I go to local milongas everyone does closed and I don't fit in at all. :( It has been a while since I tried it and it was awful I could not move having a person pasted to me.
What am I doing wrong here. HELP!

First up: if you view your dancing as being "wrong" then "wrong" your dancing shall remain in your head and thus will not progress. But you will. In time. There isn't anything wrong about dancing in the open embrace - it's merely that you are "yet" to accomplish dancing in close embrace. And, and, and... when dancing in the close frame you should not be "pasted" together with your partner neither are you glued or holding each other tight. Worry not about feeling "out of place". Believe me, the other dancers are too busy focussing on themselves and their partners and if you lead a wonderful open dance it will be so much better for most followers who love the chance to show off their decorations. In class: practice with a follower first in the open and then slowly, slowly start to pull her towards you. Stop. Halfway. Again. And stop. Repeat this until you are both now walking in close. (Yep, just practice walking at this point). Note: if she is following correctly in the apilado (embrace) that is: leaning into you as opposed to merely being pressed up against you - the groins DON'T touch - then this should feel okay. Also, her arm shouldn't be draped heavily across your shoulder (this can feel suffocating) but rather the palm of her hand ought to be flat against the middle of your back or - as I do - her hand gently resting against your right arm.

Happy dancing.

H:-)

p.s. I was never taught the close embrace. As a Follower I was dragged into it. As a Leader I taught myself.

Heather2007

02-03-2009, 04:58 AM

I will be watching this thread for sure. Tango leaders seem to hit a brick wall after
so many months of trying hard. I know I did and it feels like nothing will work.
Hopefully, someone can give you the right direction from here. And I hope it isn't 'find a good teacher' , it sounds like you've already had enough of that.

Yes, you're right. "Find a New Teacher" always seems to be the advice. Truthfully, tradesman shouldn't always blame his tools. If the tool is broken, yes, chaneg it but more often than not it is the tradesman. Guys are naturally competitive and I see and and hear and read a whole lot of beating up oneself up going on. Which only leads to frustration in the extreme. Just enjoy the challenge and the rest will follow... ;)

bordertangoman

02-03-2009, 05:16 AM

Yes, you're right. "Find a New Teacher" always seems to be the advice. Truthfully, tradesman shouldn't always blame his tools. If the tool is broken, yes, chaneg it but more often than not it is the tradesman. Guys are naturally competitive and I see and and hear and read a whole lot of beating up oneself up going on. Which only leads to frustration in the extreme. Just enjoy the challenge and the rest will follow... ;)

I think its good advice. As a teacher I have to recognise my own limitations and this isn't always easy to discern. I suggested to one friend that he go to another teacher to get dispassionate advice; it worked and it preserved our friendship. Sometimes I know how to do something but I dont know how to teach it ( possibly because it came from my previous experiences of tai chi0

There are many things that make the difference with another teacher. sometimes another teacher will give the same advice but in a different way. It may be down to personality; there is one very good teacher who I have a great respect for but my gut instinct is telling me to steer clear of her. So if you feel more comfortable with someone it may be easier to hear what they are saying.

Heather2007

02-03-2009, 05:16 AM

Well that's just weird - and vaguely "unprofessional". Get another teacher ;)

I recall one student in my yoga class telling me how one teacher threw a towel over her face when she refused to close her eyes in meditation. My face showed surprise but I was giggling like hell in side. Honestly, there are so many non-people friendly individuals around that erect themselves as keepers to the human race when in fact they should be banished to some remote spot in Hades never to once again witness civilisation - ha, ha, ha.

Captain Jep

02-03-2009, 05:32 AM

bordertangoman

02-03-2009, 06:00 AM

:D Yes and with any luck we can chuck the whole "Human Resources" profession down with them at the same time... honestly I dont know which would be worse - a text message telling you you're sacked or the same from a HR "professional".... (Rant over!)

Along with hair dressers, planning officers, and traffic wardens-actually this is getting very Hitchhikers Guide

Heather2007

02-03-2009, 07:25 AM

Along with hair dressers, planning officers, and traffic wardens-actually this is getting very Hitchhikers Guide

They'll have to queue behind Boris Johnson and his minions. Hellbound for statng that there was no need to invest in ploughs and gritters for something that took place once every 20 years. Grmpph.. Last I looked the UK was based in the north of the northern hemisphere - ergo - snowfall in January was a likelihood. Prat. :mad:

dchester

02-03-2009, 08:37 AM

Yes, you're right. "Find a New Teacher" always seems to be the advice. Truthfully, tradesman shouldn't always blame his tools. If the tool is broken, yes, chaneg it but more often than not it is the tradesman. Guys are naturally competitive and I see and and hear and read a whole lot of beating up oneself up going on. Which only leads to frustration in the extreme. Just enjoy the challenge and the rest will follow... ;)
I'll state why I think he needs a new teacher.

1) He went for a private on open embrace, and the teacher wouldn't do it (actually that's bad enough by itself to fire her, IMO).
2) She claims that the height difference keeps them from being able to do close embrace. I've been dancing for only two years (well in one more month it will be 2 years), and I can dance in close embrace with people much shorter than me.

He's been dancing for two years, and in my opinion, he hasn't had the guidance he needs to advance. Since (I suspect) none of us have seen him dance, we can really say what it is that he needs to change or try, thus I say he needs a new teacher.

Feel free to rip up my argument, I can take it.

:cool:

bordertangoman

02-03-2009, 09:20 AM

They'll have to queue behind Boris Johnson and his minions. Hellbound for statng that there was no need to invest in ploughs and gritters for something that took place once every 20 years. Grmpph.. Last I looked the UK was based in the north of the northern hemisphere - ergo - snowfall in January was a likelihood. Prat. :mad:

Come, now; he hasn't been in power 20 years so that's hardly fair; and he is meastro of getting his foot in his mouth. i think a more enlightened view would be to declare severly snowy days to be national holidays and go build a snowman or dig your neighbours out of a drift or make sure the old folks are nice and warm.

Having said that once the Gulf Stream diverts and Britain has winters like canada then a few more ploughs will come in handy.

Captain Jep

02-03-2009, 09:49 AM

BOT - Do you think there is any mileage in guys trying to follow when they dont "get" close embrace dancing? Assume a good male leader.....

PS I have some other questions re men learning to follow. Am confused though what are latest threads on this topic?

aaah

02-03-2009, 10:32 AM

Hint: ask people whose dancing you like to watch where they have taken lessons.

I will do that! Thanks. Hope its local, don't like to travel far!

aaah

02-03-2009, 10:34 AM

"Close embrace" with weight sharing works for me. "Close embrace" without weight sharing never worked for me, and still doesn't.
I...

I don't know exactly how to do weight sharing or exactly how it works

aaah

02-03-2009, 10:49 AM

IMO she is just not comfortable teaching him close, for whatever reason ( I may think of a few).

HA HA HA sure... just call me Quagmire. (see Family guy). What subtle accusations! Facinating ...

Actually my group lessons were with a different teacher and we occasionally would work on close embrace in the class - I seemed to be making progress then . The 3 privates were with a new local teacher and she thought I needed more work on fundamentals before working on close. The height diff was about 14 inches height (I'm the shorter one- JUST kidding)

Lilly_of_the_valley

02-03-2009, 10:51 AM

I don't know exactly how to do weight sharing or exactly how it works

Basically, the idea is, you do not dance as two individuals anymore, you dance as one body with the common/shared axis, your couple's axis. It feels amazing, and makes a lot of wonderful things possible.
A good teacher will explain how it works, and show, and make you try.

bordertangoman

02-03-2009, 10:52 AM

I don't know exactly how to do weight sharing or exactly how it works

its leaning on each other enough to create a positive pressure so you dont end up moving like railway carriages buffering into each other ( "so thats what they're for" remarked a female student of mine looking down; then she blushed)

dchester

02-03-2009, 11:01 AM

I don't know exactly how to do weight sharing or exactly how it works The basic idea is for the two to lean into each other (touching at the chest), which creates space between the feet for you to be able to easily move/step.

Here is an example:

http://www.rawsonweb.com/tango/Design/Assets/Images/Image2.gif

Lilly_of_the_valley

02-03-2009, 11:05 AM

HA HA HA sure... just call me Quagmire. (see Family guy). What subtle accusations! Facinating ...

Actually my group lessons were with a different teacher and we occasionally would work on close embrace in the class - I seemed to be making progress then . The 3 privates were with a new local teacher and she thought I needed more work on fundamentals before working on close. The height diff was about 14 inches height (I'm the shorter one- JUST kidding)

I did not mean to offend you. I would like to clarify. It is perfectly OK if an instructor has some personal reasons not to work on whatever with a student (could be the instructor's injuries, preventing from it, for example, or lack of training, or personal preferences). Everybody has his/her limitations.
What is not OK in my opinion, is to tell the student in that case "it is absolutely wrong to do it this way, so you shall not even try", or "it can not be done". Because most of the time, it is simply not true.

dchester

02-03-2009, 11:11 AM

The basic idea is for the two to lean into each other (touching at the chest), which creates space between the feet for you to be able to easily move/step.
Just to clarify, since a height difference was mentioned, the contact point is the chest of the shorter person with whatever it touches on the taller person. Regardless of the heights involved, your posture shouldn't change, but the arm positioning will change to accommodate each other.

aaah

02-03-2009, 12:39 PM

Hi Aaah

I'm no teacher but here are some things that I have found helpful :
- Dont get flustered by the physical connection (see other threads) : try and adopt a Zen like calm when you are leading close embrace ...
- Close embrace forces you to lead from the chest. In open embrace it is possible to lead with a combination of chest and arms. That's much harder in close embrace. So make sure the chest lead is clear. Helpful things are :
- Stand erect (dont compromise your height)
- Feel macho (you are your chest!)
- If you lead a rotation, the chest lead should be small. If your chest is the centre of the circle and the ladies chest is the perimeter, you dont have to rotate very far in order to lead a turn. So work at keeping this small and concise.
- You must be firmly grounded in close embrace. Work at stepping into the ground and leading from the ground (all the good things that people have spoken about in other threads).
- Keep movements simple. In close embrace you can concentrate on walking patterns rather than figures. Small is beautiful. Become obsessed with musicality.

Thanks so much I will try to use some of this but gosh this is like major science!

aaah

02-03-2009, 12:58 PM

Hi Aaah

- Feel macho (you are your chest!)

:)

I think this is where I am lacking .. too self conscious ... any tricks to get into the macho bit

aaah

02-03-2009, 01:01 PM

dchester

02-03-2009, 01:10 PM

I think this is where I am lacking .. too self conscious ... any tricks to get into the macho bit
Someone else is asking similar questions in this thread:

http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=31247

Maybe what is posted there may be of some value.

Heather2007

02-03-2009, 03:15 PM

Since (I suspect) none of us have seen him dance, we can really say what it is that he needs to change or try, thus I say he needs a new teacher.:cool:

Quite. None of us has seen him dancing and thus it is easier to rip into the teacher ??

I have trained with teachers who I deem unsatisfactory even though be it, they are revered by many...and vice versa.

I would rather a student attempted to change the way I approached them, personally, rather than keep schtum and head off elsewhere on the advice of others who know me not. How then do I learn? For, like students, teachers are forever learning. And yes, even from a student can we learn the most vital of lessons.

Captain Jep

02-03-2009, 03:15 PM

I think this is where I am lacking .. too self conscious ... any tricks to get into the macho bit

Possibly my first post was a bit long (?) so I'll just say one thing here :

Start as you mean to go on. The first thing to remember is that you are the lead. There is only one captain of the ship, you're it. So you have to pucker up and accept the responsibility. Do it for the team.

But : you dont start off by grabbing the woman and pinning her to your chest. Instead it's all about mental projection. As you settle into the embrace, you lean in to invite her to a close embrace. You hold her lightly but firmly. You are a gentleman and you are going to look after her.

Make the initial embrace special. Then even if the rest of the dance is disastrous , you at least have something to work from. By doing the first bit right you will find it easier to project during the rest of the dance.

Captain Jep

02-03-2009, 03:21 PM

Thanks so much I will try to use some of this but gosh this is like major science!

Well you did ask a pretty general question .... At the end of the day we'd have to watch to see what is going wrong. But I believe what I've given you are some good principles to work from.

PS How tall are you? 14 inches does sound like a heck of a big gap - surely that cant be with the lady wearing heels as well ?!

Gssh

02-03-2009, 03:55 PM

Quite. None of us has seen him dancing and thus it is easier to rip into the teacher ??

I have trained with teachers who I deem unsatisfactory even though be it, they are revered by many...and vice versa.

I would rather a student attempted to change the way I approached them, personally, rather than keep schtum and head off elsewhere on the advice of others who know me not. How then do I learn? For, like students, teachers are forever learning. And yes, even from a student can we learn the most vital of lessons.

I don't think anybody is ripping into the teacher. It seems to me that there is a mismatch between what he wants to learn, and what the teacher wants to teach. He wants to dance close embrace, and go to close embrace milongas. His classes focus on open embrace and his teacher does not seem to be too interested in close embrace tango (and i base this on the fact that i actually have danced apilado with followers 14inches shorter than me, and neither me nor the follower think of ourselves as teacher-level tango dancers. I actually don't believe that close embrace is more advanced than open embrace anyway, so making one conditional on the other is weird to me. I realize that a teacher has to start somewhere, but i have been in classes where beginners started with close embrace, and once they understood the connection then the additional options you get in open embrace were explored - and that worked just fine (actually in my experience this teacher produces superior leaders).) I know people who would be deeply unhappy in tetes class - and i don't think it would be ripping into him if they went to a teacher that matched their preferences better. I actually have been in tetes class with people like that, and i found it amusing how they were transfixed between intellectually knowing that the man is a legend and that they are supposed to like it, and realizing in their gut that they have absolutely no interest in dancing like him.

I mean, OP is studying open embrace, and wants to dance close embrace - thats a problem. To get to close embrace he has two options: 1) do a lot of social open embrace till he understands the dance enough that close embrace just happens, or 2) study close embrace with someone who wants to teach it.

I still think the first question is where his classmates and his teachers dance - they must go somewhere where their style is accepted. And the he could use option 1: honing his open embrace tange till he has the basis for discovering close embrace himself.

Gssh

P.S. I have learned most about tango by revisting the same material with different teachers, and picking very consciously who i take lessons in milonga or variations on single-axis turns in - and they are not the same people, and that doesn't mean i value them less - actually some of them would laugh at me, and send me to somebody else if i asked them to teach me something in depth that they have no real interest in and correspondingly not as much knowledge as other people. One of my teachers actually insists that you can't study only with him - after each quarter he makes people take classes somewhere else so they get a more comprehensive view of what tango can be.

aaah

02-03-2009, 09:53 PM

The basic idea is for the two to lean into each other (touching at the chest), which creates space between the feet for you to be able to easily move/step.

Hi dchester,

Fantastic picture! Thanks very much for all your advise. Hope I can do better out there some day!

All the people on this forum are terrific and do great public service to people like me. Thanks to everyone I will reread all the advise, follow links and take away all that I can. Your concern for another's betterment is really profound.

God Bless!

bordertangoman

02-04-2009, 03:35 AM

My close embrace was the worst it's been because I have not done any for 6 or more months since I started avoiding it because of 'not doing it well'

Do you recommend practicing it with whoever is game as much as I can

This seems logical and there appear to be alot of willing followers out there - at least for the first time!

Of course; practice with the most experienced dancers you can. Us teachers do not have a monopoly of knowledge and it may well be that a patient follower can point you in the right direction. Dont give up!

Heather2007

02-04-2009, 04:18 AM

I don't think anybody is ripping into the teacher.

To say "change your teacher" is what exactly? Inviting the student to continue with same teacher?

Only when the student has verbally addressdd the problem with the teacher and the problem continues then the student would be advised to seek another. Yes, there are plenty of tunnelled-vision teachers out there who will not sway from the programme but: how will the blind man know he is stepping on our rosebed if we don't tell him?

That all said, I am of the temperament that I WILL complain if I am not happy with especially if it involves my being the one that his dipping into her hard earned and do appreciate others would prefer to remain silent in their frustration and just move on.

Not wanting to start another Thread entirely: Are there any other leaders out there who found leading easy from Day One. I found it very easy. Following on the other hand was a whole new ball game.

Lady Leaders?

bastet

02-04-2009, 08:12 AM

To say "change your teacher" is what exactly? Inviting the student to continue with same teacher?

Only when the student has verbally addressdd the problem with the teacher and the problem continues then the student would be advised to seek another. Yes, there are plenty of tunnelled-vision teachers out there who will not sway from the programme but: how will the blind man know he is stepping on our rosebed if we don't tell him?

That all said, I am of the temperament that I WILL complain if I am not happy with especially if it involves my being the one that his dipping into her hard earned and do appreciate others would prefer to remain silent in their frustration and just move on.

Not wanting to start another Thread entirely: Are there any other leaders out there who found leading easy from Day One. I found it very easy. Following on the other hand was a whole new ball game.

Lady Leaders?

I'm a lady leader...or a leading lady perhaps....and although there are plenty of things I've had (and have) to work on to lead effectively, when I compare what I had to do to get a decent grounding, connection and walk as a lead was less effort than what I have had to do as a follower. I think it may be because tango was the first dance I really learned to lead, so there was almost no previous knowledge in my way. Whereas with following, I had over a decade of other dance experience and technique that I had to work around (and sometimes still do).

bastet

02-04-2009, 08:19 AM

Here 2 years of group classes and 3 privates. I can't do close embrace well. :confused:The privates teacher would not do it with me because in her opinion you have to become proficient in open first. Also she said our height difference precluded it.

When I go to local milongas everyone does closed and I don't fit in at all. :(
It has been a while since I tried it and it was awful I could not move having a person pasted to me.

What am I doing wrong here. HELP!

I think maybe to just bite the bullet and do closed from now on until I get it or I fear I never will?

I notice you travel a lot...if you are in the area of Portland (well known as a "close embrace" town) you might consider scheduling a few privates in advance of a trip. There are several very good teachers there who could give you a start and several who have drop in classes you can attend.

I for one, am not of the opinion you should just keep fumbling for it on your own. I tried that myself. If I was dancing with a leader who already knew how to connect, it was fine. If I wasn't, things were not so good. Now I can tell immeditely if a lead doesn't really understand close embrace and just don't go there with them (even if they are otherwise a lovely dancer). It really is not just standing closer to someone.

A few lessons on connecting in a closer embrace will really get you started and be much less frustrating in the long run.

Feel free to PM if you'd like a few recommendations.

bastet

02-04-2009, 08:21 AM

OMG get a new teacher. Since you are saying that close embrace dancing is present at local milongas, somebody certainly is out there teaching it. Hint: ask people whose dancing you like to watch where they have taken lessons.

AGreed- if people out at the milongas are dancing close embrace, then there is most likely someone teaching it. Ask around....and don't be afraid to schedule some privates when you travel. Lucky you!

Captain Jep

02-04-2009, 08:42 AM

Not wanting to start another Thread entirely: Are there any other leaders out there who found leading easy from Day One. I found it very easy. Following on the other hand was a whole new ball game.

Lady Leaders?

Well maybe you should - start a new thread that is ! (Or revive one of the dead ones)

Heather2007

02-04-2009, 09:45 AM

I'm a lady leader...or a leading lady perhaps....and although there are plenty of things I've had (and have) to work on to lead effectively, when I compare what I had to do to get a decent grounding, connection and walk as a lead was less effort than what I have had to do as a follower. I think it may be because tango was the first dance I really learned to lead, so there was almost no previous knowledge in my way. Whereas with following, I had over a decade of other dance experience and technique that I had to work around (and sometimes still do).

You're a Leading Lady;)

In an open air tango I went to last summer a non-tangoing elderly onlooker tapped me on the arm and asked me this: "Is the man telling the woman what to do with her body and her legs?" When I replied no followed by a layperson's explanation of what it was the leader was doing, the gentleman replied with surprised eyes, "Oh..then she is a very clever lady".

Any male Gentleman Followers out there?

Captain Jep

02-04-2009, 09:54 AM

Hi Heather

Do the odd bit of following when I can. I take nothing away from followers - to me, it seems like you have to be mind-readers half the time :rolleyes:

I would do it more if I could find willing female leaders. Tried it a bit with Yuko (you know her?) at El Corte - she gave up after half a dance - partly the height issue partly because the floor was fairly crowded and I wasnt "inspiring confidence" ;) ...

I think it's easier for ladies to cross the "gender boundary" and lead than vica versa. Shame there arent more mano to mano workshops (like in the "good old days"). Heh :cool:

Heather2007

02-04-2009, 09:57 AM

Hi Heather

Do the odd bit of following when I can.:rolleyes:

Yippee! See you on the 22nd. :friend:

Captain Jep

02-04-2009, 10:01 AM

Your challenge if you should accept it :cool:

PS Check out the link to FB BTW for recognition purposes..

Albanaich

02-04-2009, 12:43 PM

Well we had a gender imbalance last year at my Swing class - and some of the more experienced guys ended up following.

It's fascinating how different people become when you dance with them from the other side so to speak - the big burly front row forward type suddenly becomes a wimpy lead, and the small fragile guy suddenly becomes Mr Macho lead - Dance is a great equaliser.

Just before Christmas we had a session at Ceroc where they had us reverse roles - again it was a bit of an eye opener, a tall willowy woman who I would never of considered a firm lead, could really do it. What strange mixture of personal fear and confidence in her it was being put in drop by her.

She was actually a better lead than a follower. .. ..

aaah

02-04-2009, 12:54 PM

Here's Ampster's 2 cents...

When first delving into close embrace, concentrate on walking, and synchopating. Forget about the other stuff for now. Add them in when your comfortable with walking in close embrace
! (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=27415)

What exactly is synchopating? Not sure I know what this means

Thanks

aaah

02-04-2009, 12:58 PM

what you can do is getting a bit closer each time. After a few weeks your right hand will be on the lady's, right shoulderblade instead of her left.

If not in close embrace apilado how but very close open - how do you do anything.

Is this a time to mainly walk or take smaller movements - help!

dchester

02-04-2009, 01:15 PM

What exactly is synchopating? Not sure I know what this means

Thanks In Tango, syncopation just means quick steps. In music it means something else. I once tried to explain the difference here, but everyone quickly got bored.

I guess I didn't do a very good job of it.

:cry:

aaah

02-04-2009, 01:16 PM

I agree with Cap Jep but have added a few things

- Start working on parts of steps; imagine a step is made of four parts which you can dance. This is what cut steps are. Also you need to make small clear impulses with your body to help these work; try stiffeneing up your hips for sharper faster beats/movements and soften your hips for regular beats.

What are the 4 parts of a step you refer to?

tangonuevo

02-04-2009, 01:32 PM

If not in close embrace apilado how but very close open - how do you do anything.

Is this a time to mainly walk or take smaller movements - help!

No need for small movements unless that is what you want to do. I suggest that you look at the videos at

http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_6school/10walking1.htm

and those that follow. Although Rick suggests you take a short step ("12 inches is plenty"), that is only part of the learning process. To see what I mean, I you might look at

http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_6school/29steplarge.htm

Those are some big steps!!

I often (50% of the time?) dance close embrace, but I don't dance with the lean that some on this forum prefer. Rather I dance essentially toe-to-toe with my partner with each of us keeping weight forward so that we connect, but no weight on each other. I find that, with a sensitive follow, I can step as big as I want and never step on her. See also Rick's comments in this regard on his 29steplarge page.

BTW, the videos of the masters shown in his chapter five are occasionally nothing short of amazing, and almost always instructive.

aaah

02-04-2009, 01:34 PM

I'll state why I think he needs a new teacher.

1) He went for a private on open embrace, and the teacher wouldn't do it (actually that's bad enough by itself to fire her, IMO).

He's been dancing for two years, and in my opinion, he hasn't had the guidance he needs to advance. Since (I suspect) none of us have seen him dance, we can really say what it is that he needs to change or try, thus I say he needs a new teacher.

Feel free to rip up my argument, I can take it.

:cool:

I came to the same conclusion esp when she started laughing at some of my attempts to do some steps:tongue:

spent $250 to learn close embrace on her and learned nada

bordertangoman

02-04-2009, 01:59 PM

What are the 4 parts of a step you refer to?

I got taught this robotically - without a partner,
1. Leg moves forward but weight still on supporting leg
2. Weight equal between feet ie the middle of a step.
3. Weight on arriving leg but departing leg out behind
4. collect -feet together and weight on new leg

same for side and back steps.

bordertangoman

02-04-2009, 02:05 PM

In Tango, syncopation just means quick steps. In music it means something else. I once tried to explain the difference here, but everyone quickly got bored.

I guess I didn't do a very good job of it.

:cry:

I think you did okay; and that you are correct that it has two meanings

i am listening to El Huracan; such a great tune. see En tus Brazos on youtube to hear it.
I think this has some nice syncos. but I couldnt find a Donato version download. if anyone can help pm me.

Steve Pastor

02-04-2009, 10:31 PM

You can take big steps in an apilado embrace because your partner's foot moves (for all nearly all intents and purposes) at the same time as your foot does, assuming you are "walking".

02-05-2009, 12:20 AM

One teacher who showed up in my town to visit friends and teach tango workshops began her workshop with this announcement: "Since pretty much everyone dances close embrace at milongas, I begin my lessons with close embrace." There were a few brief exercises involving leaning toward or away from a partner, some walking alone to the music, and then we were thrown into the deep end, so to speak. We were told that we had to earn the privilege if using our arms to hold our partners, at first we just let our arms drape at our sides. Each pair of dancers was handed a sheet of paper to place between our chests. We proceeded to walk, pause, take side steps, etc. all without dropping the sheet of paper which was held between us only by friction.

No one dropped out or gave up, and all were able to walk in close embrace comfortably after several hours of exercises. I still like to practice leading close embrace without using my arms sometimes.

-SD

bafonso

02-05-2009, 01:25 AM

ant

02-05-2009, 03:50 AM

Originally Posted by dchester http://1.2.3.9/bmi/www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=659439#post659439)
In Tango, syncopation just means quick steps. In music it means something else. I once tried to explain the difference here, but everyone quickly got bored.
I guess I didn't do a very good job of it.

Hi dc

You can't by any chance give me a link or some idea of the name of the thread because I would like to read the post you are refering to. Many thanks, ant.

ant

02-05-2009, 04:12 AM

I got taught this robotically - without a partner,
1. Leg moves forward but weight still on supporting leg
2. Weight equal between feet ie the middle of a step.
3. Weight on arriving leg but departing leg out behind
4. collect -feet together and weight on new leg

same for side and back steps.

Thanks for that.

I am being taught this at the moment and it has been suggested to me that between 2 and 3 there would also be a forward movement, although smaller than in 1, of the front foot to assist the weight transfer.

I was also wondering what your view is on the quality on how the leg, foot and body move.

I have been taught that the leg movements come from the hip rather than the knee (which should be slightly flexed) and that when the leg moves the foot should be in light contact with the floor.

As far as possible a foot should be moving all the time and as far as possible the feet should be moving at the same speed and there should be no upper body movement (no disociation other to aid a turn or more rarely possibally to aid interpretation of the music).

bordertangoman

02-05-2009, 04:39 AM

I am being taught this at the moment and it has been suggested to me that between 2 and 3 there would also be a forward movement, although smaller than in 1, of the front foot to assist the weight transfer.

I was also wondering what your view is on the quality on how the leg, foot and body move.
).
The movements within a step are infinitley divisible but four opportunities is a starting place to get it working. The quality of the movement dpends on how you are responding. For instance the movements could be small and sharp or more fluid and flowing - the latter is harder to lead.

I have been taught that the leg movements come from the hip rather than the knee (which should be slightly flexed) and that when the leg moves the foot should be in light contact with the floor. ).[/QUOTE]

I think there has been discussion about this in another thread. I think the answer having watched lots of dancers is no not touching the floor except except when the foot arrives or in lapiz, but just above the floor

As far as possible a foot should be moving all the time and as far as possible the feet should be moving at the same speed and there should be no upper body movement (no disociation other to aid a turn or more rarely possibally to aid interpretation of the music).

I'm not sure what you are saying here; any movemnt you want to lead is initiated in your body; how you want to move your feet is up to you.

ant

02-05-2009, 06:26 AM

I'm not sure what you are saying here; any movemnt you want to lead is initiated in your body; how you want to move your feet is up to you.

Thanks for the information.

I understand what you mean by the lead from the body. this is a whole body movement, which I agree with and will always be the case.

What I was trying to ask related to movement of individual parts in the upper body. Other than disociation to effect some sort of turn, should the upper body remain as still as possible?

bastet

02-05-2009, 08:02 AM

Thanks for the information.

I understand what you mean by the lead from the body. this is a whole body movement, which I agree with and will always be the case.

What I was trying to ask related to movement of individual parts in the upper body. Other than disociation to effect some sort of turn, should the upper body remain as still as possible?

I am personally of the opinion that people who use no upper body motion tend to look stiff and robotic...

If you watch people walk, they have a natural torso rhythm (a very slight contra body motion of opposite feet and shoulders moving) that is so difficult to teach without it looking forced, but when it is just allowed to occur makes dancing feel like an entire body experience rather than robot movements.

We discussed this recently with a ballroom trained person we know who is now taking some tango, and apparently, a completely still upper body is what is encouaged in ballroom.

I will say that the tango masters I have studied with have all encouraged that gentle "rocking the lady" motion, but it is motion in harmony with the rest of the body's movement and not random upper body motion (which is disorienting to the follow and is another thing that muddies the lead).

End of story- I think upper body motion can be good if it is the "right" ("rocking the lady") kind that is in harmony with the overall body movement.

ant

02-05-2009, 10:02 AM

End of story- I think upper body motion can be good if it is the "right" ("rocking the lady") kind that is in harmony with the overall body movement.

Thanks, I agree with what you say.

Mario7

02-05-2009, 11:31 AM

I woke up with this question this morning;
Is all syncopated walking, done in parallel footing?
If not all, is the majority of it done in parallel ? That is; more than 90%?
I think that this would be an important factoid for an emergent leader.
Thanks for considering this question.

tangonuevo

02-05-2009, 11:53 AM

...
Is all syncopated walking, done in parallel footing?
....
No. I will frequently lead syncopations in cross feet. However, it is the case that I do find it much easier to lead, especially with a woman with whom I have not danced a number of times, in parallel feet. For me, this is driven by the fact that in parallel feet my upper body can provide a clearer and quicker lead since the natural contra-body that we both experience in walking is the same. In cross feet, that natural contrabody, and the lead indications that go with it, can become slightly problematic.

Or perhaps that is just me.

dchester

02-05-2009, 11:57 AM

bafonso

02-05-2009, 01:19 PM

In Tango, syncopation just means quick steps. In music it means something else. I once tried to explain the difference here, but everyone quickly got bored.

I guess I didn't do a very good job of it.

:cry:

I don't think in Tango it means quick steps. Just depends who you are talking to and with whom you're dancing with. Some followers love syncopation nuances...

Steve Pastor

02-05-2009, 02:46 PM

In AT you are free to take extra steps while your partner does not. Your body, along with the music tells her when to step, not your feet.
More skilled followers are able to take extra steps without interfering with the leaders steps, while also making sure that the leader can feel where her weight is when she's done with the "extra" step.
Leading "extra" steps is harder in "crossed system" because most people are not very good at maintaining a solid connection when in that "off to the side" position. There, it's all about that "contrabody" thing.

Mario7

02-05-2009, 04:43 PM

For the purpose of this discussion; Syncopation, the way we are defining
it, happens a lot in the Milonga (song). It appears to me that the Milonga
is danced entirely (more than 90%) in Parallel footing. There's probably a
good reason for this and I am guessing that it is because the rhythmic
form of the song, and often express footwork, are much more easily
done in Parallel footing. Any comments? thanks :cool:

dchester

02-05-2009, 04:53 PM

I don't think in Tango it means quick steps. Just depends who you are talking to and with whom you're dancing with. Some followers love syncopation nuances...
Hmmm... When we last debated this subject (and bored everyone else to death), we seemed to be in agreement on what it meant in tango. In this context, I believe double steps are the same as quick steps.

http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=586228&postcount=354

Steve Pastor

02-05-2009, 05:13 PM

I think most people do parallel in milonga because they have been taught, or learned that they were supposed to do lots of "quick" steps, or traspie as it is sometimes called. I always tell people they should concentrate on the strong 2 beats per measure indicated in the 2/4 time signature of most milongas. (This echoes what I heard from most most influential teacher.)
Traspie, the quicks, are the icing on the cake, not the main course. If you make it the main course, then you have to leave something else out to make it danceable - "crossed system".
People also say: "no ochos" in milonga, "no pauses" in milonga, etc. I disagree with them.
Sure the musicians hit normally unstressed beats which are between the 2 strong beats. That doesn't mean you have to dance them all the time. You can then explore other things that most people don't do.

Steve Pastor

02-05-2009, 05:17 PM

Gssh

02-05-2009, 08:54 PM

(and bored everyone else to death),http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=586228&postcount=354

:)

And i still believe that there is a subtle difference between a syncopation and a double time - a syncopation is a syncopation because it is swung, the singletime is not split evenly, whereas a doubletime is not a syncopation because it splits the single time evenly.

Gssh

newbie

02-06-2009, 02:59 AM

What I've been taught is that the syncopation takes place in the interval between the double time and the beat.

dchester

02-06-2009, 08:56 AM

Regarding syncopation... I've decided that when I take that extra step, I am stressing a normally unstressed space in the music. That means that I AM.....
dchester, bring it!
Don't leave us with just one post!
In every tango class that I've ever been in, when the teachers talked about syncopation, they were simply refering to quick steps (steps that take half as long to do, or double steps). Now in classes on Milonga, instead of calling the quick steps syncopation, they call it traspie.

The concept of syncopation in music is something different. The general idea is that the normally accepted (sometimes called strong) beats are not stressed, and instead some other (sometimes called weak) beats are stressed. I'll try to give a simple example of what I'm talking about (although there are many other more complicated forms of syncopation in music).

First to set things up, and give us a common reference frame, let's talk about a "measure" of music. In this example, we'll define our measure as have 4 strong beats (4/4 time if you're a musician). The 4 beats are called quarter notes, thus 4 quarter notes make one measure. Also, in our example, each quarter note represents one SLOW step in tango. In this example we could also have quick beats, which in music would be called eighth notes. Two eighth notes take the same amount of time as one quarter note, and similarly, two quick steps take the same amount of time as one slow step. The other thing we can have in music is where no note is played (called a rest), and a similar thing in tango is called a pause.

So now (musically) we could have some different measures like:

quarter - quarter - quarter - quarter
eighth-eighth - quarter - eighth-eighth - quarter
quarter - quarter - eighth-eighth - quarter
quarter - quarter - quarter - rest

In tango, the steps for the above four measures would correspond to:

Slow - Slow - slow - Slow
quick-quick - Slow - quick-quick - Slow
Slow - Slow - quick-quick - Slow
Slow - Slow - Slow - pause

(BTW, the above might work to the song, Bahia Blanca by Disarli)

OK, none of this stuff has syncopation in the musical sense.
This is because the quick steps were done in pairs,
thus the strong beat were always stressed
(in each pair of quicks above, the first quick is the strong beat,
where as the second quick is the weak beat).

strong - ~weak~ - strong - ~weak~ - strong - ~weak~ - strong - ~weak~
eighth - eighth - eighth - eighth - eighth - eighth - eighth - eighth
Slow Slow Slow Slow

Now for an example of a measure where the strong beats are not stressed.

strong - weak - strong - weak - strong - weak - strong - weak
eighth - quarter - quarter - quarter - eighthIf you add it all up, you get a complete measure, but the timing is different. The start of the three quarter notes (along with the last eighth note) is on the weak beat. When I get some time, I'll have to look for a song that does something like this, so I can post an example. I suspect it's probably still not clear what I'm trying to explain, but at least I gave it another shot.

Peaches

02-06-2009, 09:08 AM

bordertangoman

02-06-2009, 09:18 AM

:)

And i still believe that there is a subtle difference between a syncopation and a double time - a syncopation is a syncopation because it is swung, the singletime is not split evenly, whereas a doubletime is not a syncopation because it splits the single time evenly.

Gssh

i'M amazed; firstly I understand it and secondly i think you could be right.

Bu to add confusion I also thonk Peaches is right; where a beat other than one or three are accented then its Peachsyncopation. I know a version of La Trampera where its like that and fun to dance to; lots of shoulder movement as its milonga or the chicken-wing movement.

Peaches

02-06-2009, 09:23 AM

...which is what I've heard called contratiempo.

...and this is why I've given up caring. Especially since I'm a follower...I just let the lead figure that stuff out, and just go along with him! :-D

(Also since I hear and think of music entirely differently when it's in a dance--particularly AT--context than when I listen in a musical context.)

dchester

02-06-2009, 09:37 AM

I just think of syncopation (in dance) as a step on the "and" count of the music, as in, between the beat.

I think of traspie as making use of the candombe rhythm: 1, ah 2, and 3, ah 4.

Could be correct, could be wrong. Everyone seems to have wildly varying definitions. I've given up caring. My definition makes sense to me.

I think of syncopation differently for dancing than I do in music (non-primary beats being stressed).
I'm assuming that in addition to stepping on the "ah" you also stepped on the 1. If so, the 1 and the "ah" are the quick steps, the 2 is a slow. In milonga, they call it traspie.

If you were stepping on the "ah"s without stepping on the 2, 3, and 4, that would be syncopation in the musical sense.

Peaches

02-06-2009, 09:44 AM

tangonuevo

02-06-2009, 10:01 AM

I agree with Gssh. Double time is straight division, syncopation is swung. Both straight and swung time divisions occur in the music that we dance tango to. Especially in milonga. Right now playing in the background is D'Arienzo's El Esquinazo. The double time and the syncopations in the music are quite clear. I tend think of traspie as syncopated, not merely double time.

dchester

02-06-2009, 10:02 AM

*shrug* I have a hard time thinking in quicks and slows in AT. I just don't hear and feel and process the music that way.

I step on: 1, ah, 2, and, 3, ah, 4. (If I find a guy who leads that. I can only think of one or two people who do, and they're teachers, and generally don't dance with me.)
Everyone thinks of it a bit differently. I heard someone else describe tango as a combination of ones and threes. Eventually I figured out that for him, the one was a slow, and a three was a quick, quick, slow (or a 1, ah, 2).

:tongue:

bordertangoman

02-06-2009, 10:05 AM

*shrug* I have a hard time thinking in quicks and slows in AT. I just don't hear and feel and process the music that way.

I step on: 1, ah, 2, and, 3, ah, 4. (If I find a guy who leads that. I can only think of one or two people who do, and they're teachers, and generally don't dance with me.)

well i try but with my dinosaur brain if I want to dance on any of the ahs by the time the signal reaches my feet we're in the next bar. I can dance on half beats if the rhythm is regular or I know its coming from familiarity, but the fast running steps (corridas) in milonga are a bit beyond me. (yet)

Peaches

02-06-2009, 10:21 AM

Interesting. I find the traspie/dancing on "ah's" to be easier. Possibly because that's how I first learned milonga.

Gssh

02-06-2009, 01:55 PM

First to set things up, and give us a common reference frame, let's talk about a "measure" of music. In this example, we'll define our measure as have 4 strong beats (4/4 time if you're a musician). The 4 beats are called quarter notes, thus 4 quarter notes make one measure. Also, in our example, each quarter note represents one SLOW step in tango. In this example we could also have quick beats, which in music would be called eighth notes. Two eighth notes take the same amount of time as one quarter note, and similarly, two quick steps take the same amount of time as one slow step. The other thing we can have in music is where no note is played (called a rest), and a similar thing in tango is called a pause.

And to add to that there is the concept of swing/notes inegales (or what we use as traspie in milonga). Two eight notes take the same amoung of time as a quarter note, and they don't create a scyncopation if both eight notes have the same length. The big thing in jazz and ragtime (and milonga imho :) ) is the idea of swing. If a musician plays two eight notes and they take the same amount of time as a quarter note, and they are evenly spaced, he is playing "straight". no synchopation. there is nothing emphazised.
The magic of jazz is that the musician don't play straight they play with swing, they delay and accelerate the rythm. So instead of playing two eigths, as written where they have both the same length they play a "long eight" and a "short eight", where one of the eigth is longer than the other (but they still add up to the same lenght as a quarter note), or in extreme cases they play a dotted eight and a sixteenth. And different members of the band will play with different degree of swing, creating tension due to the slight pull and push they give to each other by this.
The syncopation does not happen due to emphasis ing the weak beat, but due to the fact that the irregularity in the rhythm emphasizes the deviation from the expected, regular rhythm.

So what creates the dynamic of milonga is not doubletime (dancing quick, quick, but by doing traspie, a short quick and a long quick, so it is not di di di instead of da da , but didi dap).

Gssh

P.S. i have been looking up the entry for syncopation in wikipedia to make sure i get this right, and they mention the "anticipated bass" of son, where the bass comes syncopated shortly before the downbeat - this "short eight" and "long eight" seems to be closer to the milonga "short quick and long quick" than the swing pattern. I wonder if there is a historical relationship betwen them?

dchester

02-06-2009, 02:10 PM

And to add to that there is the concept of swing/notes inegales (or what we use as traspie in milonga). Two eight notes take the same amoung of time as a quarter note, and they don't create a scyncopation. The big thing in jazz and ragtime (and milonga imho :) ) is the idea of swing. If a musician plays two eight notes and they take the same amount of time as a quarter note, and they are evenly spaced, he is playing "straight". no synchopation. there is nothing emphazised.
The magic of jazz is that the musician don't play straight they play with swing, they delay and accelerate the rythm. So instead of playing two eigths as written they play a "long eight" and a "short eight", or in extreme cases they play a dotted eight and a sixteenth. And different members of the band will play with different degree of swing, creating tension.
The syncopation does not happen due to emphasis ing the weak beat, but due to the fact that the irregularity in the rhythm emphasizes the deviation from the expected, regular rhythm.

So what creates the dynamic of milonga is not doubletime (dancing quick, quick, but by doing traspie, a short quick and a long quick, not di di di instead of da da , but didi dap).

Gssh

P.S. i have been looking up the entry for syncopation in wikipedia to make sure i get this right, and they mention the "anticipated bass" of son, where the bass comes syncopated shortly before the downbeat - this "short eight" and "long eight" seems to be closer to the milonga "short quick and long quick" than the swing pattern. I wonder if there is a historical relationship betwen them?
Well, I did say that there are many other more complicated forms of syncopation in music. I was just trying to explain a simple example. I'm not sure how good of a job I did, though.

I must confess that I've never seen this short quick followed by a long quick that you described in a traspie. The didi dap to me seems like quick quick slow, but maybe it's just something I haven't been exposed to yet.

Gssh

02-06-2009, 02:42 PM

I must confess that I've never seen this short quick followed by a long quick that you described in a traspie. The didi dap to me seems like quick quick slow, but maybe it's just something I haven't been exposed to yet.

I don't actually know if it can be seen - my main teachers for milonga are a couple (they studied with omar vega), and while he insists when talking about milonga that there is a difference between traspie and doble (his image is "traspie means stumble: You stumble, fall, and catch yourself very quickly, and the next step gets you back on the normal rhythm), i am not sure i can see it when he dances. I only understood it when i danced with her, and she spend multiple milongas yelling at me (while following as flawless as my leading allowed) "NO!" "NO!" "this is not it!" "NO" "too slow" "too rushed" "NO" - fond memories :). Then one day it clicked, and i was able to do it at least some of the time (and all i got was a very curt "better" - somehow it still balanced all the yelling :) :) ). I get the impression that followers feel the difference (and they tend to enjoy it (well, most of the do - there are a few who i can't do it with - they insist on their own rhythm, and dance dobles and not traspies, and then it feels like i am manhandling them, because i "push" them through their first quick faster than they decided on stepping, and its uncomfortable for both of us - i switch do dancing straight, but that beginning of the dance is very hard to make up for afterwards)), and i feel more in the music and the mood of milonga when i do it, but i think if i were to look at myself from the outside my patterns would look the pretty much the same.
Followers - is this something that i am making up? We have talked about this quite a bit, and right now i have tried to find a youtube video where the difference is visible, but i can't find anything that would convince me if i assumed that it is just double time. I have been googling for syncopation a lot, too, and it seems that everybody insists that syncopation in dance is different than syncopation in music, and that it just means double time. And it is not like they are beginners, or bad dancers - the opposite. In a way it is a puzzle for me - it was taught to me as the cornerstone of what makes milonga con traspie milonga con traspie, and much better dancers than me do without that concept at all.

DChester would you mind trying to experiment with this idea some time? Just rushing the first quick of the quick quick a little bit, and the delaying the second one to be back on the beat?

Gssh

tangonuevo

02-06-2009, 02:45 PM

...
I must confess that I've never seen this short quick followed by a long quick that you described in a traspie. The didi dap to me seems like quick quick slow, but maybe it's just something I haven't been exposed to yet.

Please see my earlier comment re D'Arienzo's El Esquinazo. To my ear, you can quite clearly hear the straight double time and the swung time. There will be a passage with straight double time followed almost immediately by one really emphasizing the swung rhythm. Try tapping out the straight fours with one hand and then following the very prominent double time & the swung time with your other as they take turns being dominant. Unless you are a drummer, you will probably have no problem with the double time but will drop one hand when the swung time happens.

dchester

02-06-2009, 04:03 PM

Please see my earlier comment re D'Arienzo's El Esquinazo. To my ear, you can quite clearly hear the straight double time and the swung time. There will be a passage with straight double time followed almost immediately by one really emphasizing the swung rhythm. Try tapping out the straight fours with one hand and then following the very prominent double time & the swung time with your other as they take turns being dominant. Unless you are a drummer, you will probably have no problem with the double time but will drop one hand when the swung time happens.In music, I've heard (and played) stuff like this and many other variations. I was trying to say that I hadn't seen someone dance that way (with a short quick and then long quick).

Steve Pastor

02-06-2009, 04:38 PM

P.S. i have been looking up the entry for syncopation in wikipedia to make sure i get this right, and they mention the "anticipated bass" of son, where the bass comes syncopated shortly before the downbeat - this "short eight" and "long eight" seems to be closer to the milonga "short quick and long quick" than the swing pattern. I wonder if there is a historical relationship betwen them?

I believe the common root may be the "habanera" rhythm aka Spanish tinge, Cakewalk, etc.
Wikipedia has music notation for it, but I have seen, and will share, eventually when I get it done, the notation I found in the the Courlander article on Cakewalk, and "Early Jazz". "Black Music of Two Worlds" covered the same gorund, sort of, stating that this ryhthm is found throughout the new world among various Afrcian American groups and music they influenced.

Syncopation is a tough one because it has so many meanings. The wikipedia article looks pretty good. Note that almost every sentence has a reference to what looks like a good book on the subject.

Steve Pastor

02-06-2009, 04:47 PM

Another aspect to this, which I found interesting is that one of the authors of one of the above books reported that a musicologist who had worked with African master drummers came to the conclusion that, where "western" musicians think in terms of 1/4 notes, the African drummers thought more in terms of 1/8 notes, and were able to play very subtle variations in timing.
One author wrote that very complicated polyrhythms of African music had pretty much disappeared by the swing era, when written arrangements were the prevailing form for big bands. That rhythmic sophistication returned with bebop.
I've been reading too much to give you page #s for this!
And, as always, there are exceptions.

dchester

02-06-2009, 09:32 PM