Macho and cultural differences.

[bordertangoman]

" in Spanish, "macho" doesn't mean arrogant or exaggerated, it just means, "masculine." It's English and anglo-saxon society that has made it a negative term.

"I too believe tango is a conversation--but not between 2 girlfriends, or mother and son, or 2 buddies from work--but between a man and a woman. Her femininity speaks as loudly as his masculinity, and together they create something wonderful and new (well ok, if I use the analogy of a baby that's pretty corny and extreme, but you see what I'm getting at.)

I don't at all feel dominated and submissive when I dance; I feel an equal partner in my feminine way--I don't need to "compete" with my partner, because we are doing different things, equally important.

I sure don't want to assume the "masculine" role of leading on the dance floor, because dancing for me is a break from all the decision-making and life choices and traffic handling that I do all the rest of the time.

I like the conversation to be a flirtation, a meeting of different energies, which say, "Let's see where the music will take us!"from
http://tangotrails.blogspot.com/2008/08/machismo-and-tango-my-2-centavos_25.html

Are us gringos ever going to dance tango convincingly if we dont accept more masculine/feminine roles? (Discuss)

[Heather2007]

" in Spanish, "macho" doesn't mean arrogant or exaggerated, it just means, "masculine."

... I like the conversation to be a flirtation

... assume the "masculine" role

How does this all translate if the Leader is a woman? (especially if she is leading a man)

[Captain Jep]

You'll obviously have to stop leading then : it's "unnatural" :rolleyes:

I think it's more a case of taking of embracing your role than being "macho" isnt it?

Anyway we all know there is a type of female macho. If I can divert for a moment into song (tra la la!) :

"
And there's times I think I see you
When I find that kind of face
When a woman's independance
Has kept a woman's grace
Where confidence and pride
Refuse to know their place
Or hide behind the easy tricks of beauty

....

From the Cuillins tae the Carolinas
Strong women rule us all
With the courage that they call
When the tears refuse to fall
From their eyes
"
(Brian MacNeill , "Strong Women Rule us All")

[Heather2007]

I think it's more a case of taking of embracing your role than being "macho" isnt it?

Quite.

And there's times I think I see you
When I find that kind of face
When a woman's independance
Has kept a woman's grace
Where confidence and pride
Refuse to know their place
Or hide behind the easy tricks of beauty

From the Cuillins tae the Carolinas
Strong women rule us all
With the courage that they call
When the tears refuse to fall
From their eyes

Cor, that's nice.

[dchester]

Like an Argentine teacher once told me, "Just Be The Man".

[bordertangoman]

You'll obviously have to stop leading then : it's "unnatural" :rolleyes:

)


i Dont suppose women lead in Bs As outside of gay clubs, but I could be wrong.

To rephrase an aphorism
"In front of any great milongeuro stands a great tanguera"

[Me]

Are us gringos ever going to dance tango convincingly if we dont accept more masculine/feminine roles? (Discuss)

That's a pretty loaded question, and I think offensive as well. I know you play it tongue in cheek but this one crossed the line. :confused:

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Hahaha. When I started to lead, I very soon discovered, to my surprise, that it had absolutely nothing to do with being dominant.

Fortunately for all of us, there are many ways of being a man and being a woman. After all, women are men like anybody else (and the opposite is true, too :) ).
Whose who learn both how to lead and follow in tango ( personally, I think its indispensable while learning a partner dance), eventually find out that those roles and goals are basically the same -- to connect with the partner, with the music, and move as one.
That's said, the cultural differences do exist, and affect how people learn and interact in a context of tango. But in my opinion they go way beyond gender stereotypes.

[Heather2007]

i Dont suppose women lead in Bs As outside of gay clubs, but I could be wrong."

Apparently they do. Even straight ones.

All this "macho", "be a man" stuff I don't agree with. What, to my mind, tops them all is (to your follower) to be kind, sensitive, intuitive and sympathetic. Followed by: connection, techique, good signal etc. And now I'm heading into Deja Vu terrority.

[Heather2007]

Are us gringos ever going to dance tango convincingly if we dont accept more masculine/feminine roles?

There are many a good male dancer that only dances the lead and many a good lady that only dances as the Follower. It isn't about embracing or accepting the role of one's opposite. You hear the music and you dance. Basta. There are places outside the milonga that cater for those who need to get in touch with the inner Y or X. :rolleyes:

[kieronneedscake]

Apparently they do. Even straight ones.

All this "macho", "be a man" stuff I don't agree with. What, to my mind, tops them all is (to your follower) to be kind, sensitive, intuitive and sympathetic. Followed by: connection, techique, good signal etc. And now I'm heading into Deja Vu terrority.

I have anecdotal evidence of some Totnes ladies being very popular amongst the Argentine women after they had done a bit of leading. They did ask permission before they started showing their stuff though. *sigh* Wish I could be as good a leader as them.

My personal take on it is that you have to be assertive and willing take risks (such as asking a woman to dance). It's about knowing your worth. Telling guys to be macho is fairly complete shorthand for this, although it does have other connotations too, like trying too hard and posturing.

[Captain Jep]

.. Yes I agree ... it's a shame we have to use the word "macho" rather than "being a gentleman" - but the latter has become so watered down and made suspect these days that it doesnt have the force I think it used to.

As far as asking someone for a dance goes, I'd say, hide behind any label you like. If it helps you get over being rejected, so much the better!

[dchester]

http://tangotrails.blogspot.com/2008/08/machismo-and-tango-my-2-centavos_25.html

Are us gringos ever going to dance tango convincingly if we dont accept more masculine/feminine roles? (Discuss)
The next post in that thread was interesting as well. In addition to "macho" having a different connotation, also the term "surrender", has a different spin as well.

I agree with Cherie - I think the word "macho" is widely misunderstood in modern non-latin society.

Macho, to me, means manly. masculine. Like I said in my last post. I like to feel cared for by a strong manly man in tango - I like to be the princess and he gets to be my knight in shining armor.
I like to be the woman and I like him to be the man.

I don't feel that that's submissive. When I say I "submit" I mean that I "surrender" myself. entrega - essential in tango.

I like that you mentioned conversation - in real like talk, I am a big chatter box. I have to work really hard to make sure I don't dominate conversations. It's a big challenge. I can yap yap yap away if I'm not careful.

So the nice thing about Tango for me, is that it's the one time where I can metaphorically "shut my mouth" and let the other person talk.

Of course I get to respond (with my body) but it really means a lot to me to let the man lead and have a slightly more active role than me. It's not that I'm not active, but I must admit that I do like to be slightly passive (slightly). It's been great for me, psychologically. Teaches me about conversations since I do tend to take over.

[Captain Jep]

I have anecdotal evidence of some Totnes ladies being very popular amongst the Argentine women after they had done a bit of leading. They did ask permission before they started showing their stuff though. *sigh* Wish I could be as good a leader as them.


Interesting remark by the way - I wasnt aware of many of them being leaders. Apart from the tall bird that is. I'll have to keep an eye out...

[bordertangoman]

That's a pretty loaded question, and I think offensive as well. I know you play it tongue in cheek but this one crossed the line. :confused:

its tongue in cheek but its a serious question. I think there are some very fine women leaders out there who dance as well as any man, but I think in this particular (uk) culture some men struggle with the dance because of more broader social and cultural identity issues, and perhaps the more alpha males in society arent going to take up dancing in the first place.

Why do you find it offensive?

[Albanaich]

Well - I was sort of brought up in an Italian cultural environment, though my parents were merely Italian - Welsh - Jewish - English.

I was the teenager that could chat up women without out having to get drunk. .. (this is 35 years ago) everyone thought I was gay of course.

Some things never change.

[Me]

Why do you find it offensive?

The whole "Americans don't dance real tango and have sexuality issues" thing just gets very, very old. I can see from your follow-up that you did not mean gringo in the traditional sense... What group are you addressing when you say gringo? I am assuming at this point you mean Non-Argentines?

The gender argument has me a bit baffled as well. Can you be more specific? Are you talking about assigning gender to the role of lead and follow... to quality of movement... to behavior at a milonga... behavior in the classroom... behavior before signing up for classes?

[dchester]

I was told that when Argentines talk to each other (with respect to Tango), they don't use the terms leader and follower, but rather they use the terms man and woman. Has anyone else heard this? (I'm never sure how much of what different people tell me is true).

[Albanaich]

I don't know about Argentina but in Sicily they would not be able to comprehend the concept of female leader. . . . unless of course she was gay.

Northern European culture is different from Southern Europe, women are encouraged to be much more assertive - this actually goes back 1,000's of years. (the reports of the Arab Ambassador to the Spanish Caliph from Ireland makes fascinating reading - if only because the same cultural differences still exist)

The thing here is that in Latin society, being a strong dance leader with a strong 'sexual' presence is what makes an alpha male, that's what 'Machismo' is - in Northern Europe its the emotional control that prevents any expression of sexuality that makes an alpha male.

[Steve Pastor]

I was told that when Argentines talk to each other (with respect to Tango), they don't use the terms leader and follower, but rather they use the terms man and woman. Has anyone else heard this? (I'm never sure how much of what different people tell me is true).

I have read this repeatedly at another tango discussion site.
Language in the US began being neutered beginning in the 60s. It went along with "women's liberation" and the goal of making women equal to men.
Waiter/waitress server
mailman postal carrier

Books into the 70s including "Encyclopedia of Social Dance" form the 70s lists the parts of the "Gentleman" and the "Lady" for Western Swing, and the "Girl's Part".
This language, along with refernces to "gay" dances, meaning the pre "Gay Liberation" meaning, are strandard usage.

In "Tango Bar" (1980s?) they speak of dancing the woman's part (If memory serves correctly) when men practice together so that they can dance with the women.

I think the English language, where nouns have no gender, is particularly suited to nuetered language.

And regarding cultural differences in gender related issues...
I can't help but recall the Maasia women in a boma on the Serengeti gently guiding a female tourist away from the men and their jumping Adumu dance, to the more sedate shuffling dance that the women were doing.

I will agree with those who have observed that most women who lead look like women who are leading. Some, however, do have the same energy, assertiveness, etc, that we would label as masculine. Size seems to be an important element. Indeed, the physical (and perhaps psychological as well?) differences between men and women is where the whole thing started, and why it's unlikely to completely go away no matter if we call people leads and follows rather than men and women.

[Captain Jep]

Yes, I dont think the issue will go away either.

I dont think at the end of the day living in a macho society makes learning tango any easier. But it probably makes it more emotionally charged ...

[Albanaich]

I learned to lead from a small ferocious woman who took me aside a few weeks after I started MJ and said 'this is what a strong lead feels like'

I've never forgot the lesson.

Last year I had to teach my son how to dance for his wedding dance - I started the same way, 'this is what a confident lead feels' like' and pushed him through a whole series of patterns.

A lot of beginner leads think of partner dance as something in which you are trying to 'match moves' without any sense of authority - a few minutes experience as a follow in the hands of a good lead will change that completely.

[bordertangoman]

This thread is moving in interesting directions. it arose because someone i know is fanatical about traditional tango yet is learning it from a woman, who, reportedly, is trying to dominate the leaders she's teaching in her class. So aside from the gender contradiction (which I dont have a problem with) it must make for interesting lessons!

my experience of dancing with Argentine women is that they expect a strong physical lead, but once you give them that, they do lighten up and respond to something less forceful- i'm a light lead until I want to really give my partner some energy for a given move.

[bordertangoman]

I have anecdotal evidence of some Totnes ladies being very popular amongst the Argentine women after they had done a bit of leading. They did ask permission before they started showing their stuff though. *sigh* Wish I could be as good a leader as them.
.

in the uk or BsAs?

[bordertangoman]

The whole "Americans don't dance real tango and have sexuality issues" thing just gets very, very old. I can see from your follow-up that you did not mean gringo in the traditional sense... What group are you addressing when you say gringo? I am assuming at this point you mean Non-Argentines?

?

yes non-Argentines. I think it is about gender roles more generally in society.
Since I dont think I fall into any category of "normal" i dont think my personal experience is representative, but have read about couple dynamics creating problems for some people and in Susan Faluddi's book "stiffed" you can read about the loss of role for modern man.

Since it is possible to change how one feels by physical activity, i'm wondering if i got the blokes to do The Haka or its equivalent before the class whether it would have a postive effect on their dancing.

[Albanaich]

Being 'Macho' is not exactly difficult. . . . .

Say after me - 'All women (including University Professors and Chief Constables) are Bimbo's

You've done it!!!

[Captain Jep]

ooohhh you like flirting with trouble dont you ! Ha - but that's a sign of true machismo, no?

[Steve Pastor]

my experience of dancing with Argentine women is that they expect a strong physical lead, but once you give them that, they do lighten up and respond to something less forceful- i'm a light lead until I want to really give my partner some energy for a given move.
Yes, and I can remember one teacher from Argentina stating that if the man moves confidently when they begin dancing, she can relax because he probably knows what he is doing. I'll second BMTs sequence of more forceful to less forceful, but being able to change depending on the music, etc, too.
(It may have been Cecilia González. But you see, I also saw her lead Megan Pingree, one of our local instructors in a bunch of "nuevo" stuff after a lesson, all to the music. The two of them did a spectacular job! Don't quote me, though, that it was Cecilia since I'm not 100%)

Perhaps emphsizing posture would help? I mean, I had terrible posture for the longest time. Part of that was my humble beginnings as a distinctly working class kid. And how many young men have good, or even average posture?
What I'll call "Classic" AT/Porteno posture is almost military in bearing (but not exactly, I don't think).
Learning to standing tall and leading with your chest could only help???

And frankly, I'm reading a lot of very familiar stuff in the older "ballroom" dance books that I learned in AT classes.

We can try to remake AT in our own image, or ...
Gee, I keep "biting my tongue".
What will your AT look like?

[shulepov]

Being 'Macho' is not exactly difficult. . . . .

Say after me - 'All women (including University Professors and Chief Constables) are Bimbo's

You've done it!!!

100% Agree!
Thanks. It's really true.
Even at mine not wide experience.

[opendoor]

tried to figure out what this thread is about:

f.i this ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKdikopK6lg

[Captain Jep]

:-) this is another version of something I recently posted ... how is this connected?

[elisedance]

Being 'Macho' is not exactly difficult. . . . .

Say after me - 'All women (including University Professors and Chief Constables) are Bimbo's

You've done it!!!

Yup, now you've really done it :rolleyes:

Speaking for the University Professor Bimbo contingent, A man that leads with minimal force is way more macho than one who has to resort to force. And since I'm probably taller and stronger than many of you beware The Revenge of the Amazonia... :p

[Captain Jep]

If you're lucky I might let you kick me in the shins ... if you can reach ! :banana:

[kieronneedscake]

Let's turn the the dictionary definition of 'macho':

MACHO http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/ahsdWAV/M0000800/macho) (mä'chō)
Short for massive astrophysical compact halo object.Any of various massive dark objects, such as a brown dwarf star, black hole, or large planet, found in a galactic halo.

No... that didn't help. Massive dark objects and brown dwarves are not common on tango pista.

Albanaich has acted in macho fashion - he has asserted a viewpoint strongly and without doubt, and without concern for his own safety. He has also shown laughable disregard for the feelings of women (another trait commonly ascribed to men, therefore falling into the gamut of 'macho'?).

[Captain Jep]

:cool:
Anyway ... just thought you might be amused by an old photo of mine. Took it when travelling in Mexico. I attended a carnival there and one of the floats had this lady on : (see attached)

This was in 2000 so the bakery company in question might have caught on to the problem by now!

[dchester]

Being 'Macho' is not exactly difficult. . . . .

Say after me - 'All women (including University Professors and Chief Constables) are Bimbo's

You've done it!!!
It would appear that you and I have radically different ideas of what being macho (or masculine) is all about.

[dchester]

My two cents (and I could be out in left field).

It seems that some people in this thread are fixating on the English connotations (as they perceive it) of the word "Macho". However, I think BTM's original post was about the Argentine usage of the word. " in Spanish, "macho" doesn't mean arrogant or exaggerated, it just means, "masculine." It's English and anglo-saxon society that has made it a negative term.
BTM's post also included a woman's perspective on how she viewed her role in the dance. I don't at all feel dominated and submissive when I dance; I feel an equal partner in my feminine way--I don't need to "compete" with my partner, because we are doing different things, equally important.

I sure don't want to assume the "masculine" role of leading on the dance floor, because dancing for me is a break from all the decision-making and life choices and traffic handling that I do all the rest of the time.


I think what BTM was trying to ask (and debate), was if the Argentine (not American or European) concepts of masculinity and femininity help with respect to dancing tango. Possibly it's just too difficult for people to debate it (since some may feel it's not politically correct), or maybe some people just think it's a bunch of hooey.

Does anyone else agree (with the women that BTM's post referred to) that while both roles are equal, having the man be masculine, and the woman be feminine, could help Argentines (and possibly others) in their dance?

[Captain Jep]

I'm not quite sure I understand the question. From what I can make out, we're really debating why American/European men appear to lack "energy" when they're dancing. Or are we?

[elisedance]

Or what is masculine and what feminine? The answers are steeped in experience and your particular culture. When I was a child in England it was regarded as masculine by some to beat your wife. Attempts to stop this tradition hit a brick wall of interfering with the private aspects of 'marriage'.

OTOH one of the things I love about partner dancing in general is the opportunity to indulge in being 'decision-recessive' (for want of a better term). Its particularly great because I can regain 'decision-equality' when I close the ballroom door behind me....

[Albanaich]

In simple terms what defines 'Macho' or 'Masculinity' in one country or culture is not the same as another.

In Northern European culture making and obvious romantic or sexual play for a member of the opposite sex is a big cultural no - no. It Southern Europe it isn't, its what defines masuclinity.

What makes Southern Europeans stronger leads is that they have no problems with their gender role - the man is leads, the woman follows. It's not something that has to be negotiated.

[shulepov]

What makes Southern Europeans stronger leads is that they have no problems with their gender role - the man is leads, the woman follows. It's not something that has to be negotiated.
In Russia, for example
it is normal usually, the man - the MAN, and man is leads, the woman follows. In social comunication it is too. And anybody does not specify any questions.

[bordertangoman]

Yup, now you've really done it :rolleyes:

Speaking for the University Professor Bimbo contingent, A man that leads with minimal force is way more macho than one who has to resort to force. And since I'm probably taller and stronger than many of you beware The Revenge of the Amazonia...

:notworth: :notworth: :notworth:

thats me a light lead. ( but not a leading light)

[bordertangoman]

Albanaich has acted in macho fashion - he has asserted a viewpoint strongly and without doubt, and without concern for his own safety. He has also shown laughable disregard for the feelings of women (another trait commonly ascribed to men, therefore falling into the gamut of 'macho'?).


:lol:

[bordertangoman]

Or what is masculine and what feminine? The answers are steeped in experience and your particular culture. When I was a child in England it was regarded as masculine by some to beat your wife. Attempts to stop this tradition hit a brick wall of interfering with the private aspects of 'marriage'.

....


ah yes " a dog a wife and a walnut tree..........."

I also think its about Authenticity*; the English have always been excessively polite but being PC takes it to extremes

* "The Authentic self emerges from the depths like a spring bubbling up through the desert of what the conscious mind can fathom, like a light shining through the body when the yoke of the tyrant falls away."

Linda Kohanov

[Heather2007]

Well - I was sort of brought up in an Italian cultural environment, though my parents were merely Italian - Welsh - Jewish - English.

I was brought up in a strictly 50/50 household. Dad's a Syrian Jew Marxist Feminist. His philosophy always began with these words "Don't let any man..." :D

[Heather2007]

It would appear that you and I have radically different ideas of what being macho (or masculine) is all about.

Er..I think Albanaich had his tongue planted firmly against his cheek at the time.:rolleyes:

[elisedance]

In Russia, for example
it is normal usually, the man - the MAN, and man is leads, the woman follows. In social comunication it is too. And anybody does not specify any questions.

But here it is legal, acceptable and not even strange for a man to be leading a man or a woman a woman. Sure, we do not see much social M/F with M/M F/F dancing (it does happen but I think its a matter of time). The dance rules are the same for all three cases so to be polite and inclusive (and realistic) it is simpler to refer to lead and follow.

[Captain Jep]

Interesting. Arent you confusing what happens in a practice with what happens in a social (a milonga) ? I dont think in the UK it is "normal" to see same-sex dancing.

Personally I dont like this idea that dance is some sort of "sport". Or that it is some sort of asexual social activity. No no. It's a "courtship ritual". I dont mind practising (or having a bit of fun) with anyone , male or female. But at a milonga - when it's "serious" - I want to dance with women, thank you.

And if that makes me non PC then so be it!

[elisedance]

Not sure where you are coming from - in my post there was no dictate as to what anyone should do only an observation on what is generally happening. And yes, I too want to dance with the opposite sex. As I see it all of this has nothing to do with being PC but tollerance (not the same thing in my book).

[Heather2007]

I dont think in the UK it is "normal" to see same-sex dancing

I can't speak for the rest of the UK but in London it is absolutely normal to see two women dancing although yes, I have only ever a couple of times seen two men dancing.

Personally I dont like this idea that dance is some sort of "sport". Or that it is some sort of asexual social activity. No no. It's a "courtship ritual". I dont mind practising (or having a bit of fun) with anyone , male or female. But at a milonga - when it's "serious" - I want to dance with women, thank you.

And if that makes me non PC then so be it!

It doesn't make you PC or non-PC you merely have a preference and that should be respected. That said, I think one poster is right when they stated it shouldn't be regarded as "male-female" but rather "Leader-Follower". If we see only the gender then something else is going on in our minds besides the dance. (A bit like the therapist no longer seeing me as "The Patient" standing before him in her bra and knickers but as "A Woman" standing before him in her bra and knickers. That happened some years back with one Osteopath and it felt..erm...a bit wrong).

[Captain Jep]

I think it's normal to see some F/F dancing in a class. But in a milonga it's still uncommon. So shouldnt we respect what is generally happening, and just use the terms interchangeably?

(I've edited my response to your posts a dozen times at least. So if you want to discuss it further, send me a PM... )

[elisedance]

I'm NOT saying that this is the case here but sadly, 'respecting what is generally happening' too often is the strongest excuse for discrimination. For example, blacks being unable to use the washroom, women driving a car or genital mutilation were/are 'generally happening' and hence socially acceptable. I think its healthy to always question one's reasons for doing a certain behaviour and consider whether its reasonable or if one can broaden one's horizons and grow as a person.

I won't say any more since I've obviously hijacked a thread that you guys were having some fun with. Well, as long as it doesn't get totally misogynistic ;)

[Heather2007]

I'm NOT saying that this is the case here but sadly, 'respecting what is generally happening' too often is the strongest excuse for discrimination. For example, blacks being unable to use the washroom, women driving a car or genital mutilation were/are 'generally happening' and hence socially acceptable. I think its healthy to always question one's reasons for doing a certain behaviour and consider whether its reasonable or if one can broaden one's horizons and grow as a person.

I won't say any more since I've obviously hijacked a thread that you guys were having some fun with. Well, as long as it doesn't get totally misogynistic ;)

I don't think the view of anyone here is as extreme as that, but, yep, I see exactly where you're coming from. Expressions like "the norm", "unusual", "what is accepted" etc. etc. can turn what is a small match flame into one gigantic forest-fire. I think there are elements in the world of tango that is yet to join the evolutionary process. Give it time...Time's a great teacher;)

[Captain Jep]

I'm NOT saying that this is the case here but sadly, 'respecting what is generally happening' too often is the strongest excuse for discrimination. For example, blacks being unable to use the washroom, women driving a car or genital mutilation were/are 'generally happening' and hence socially acceptable. I think its healthy to always question one's reasons for doing a certain behaviour and consider whether its reasonable or if one can broaden one's horizons and grow as a person.

I won't say any more since I've obviously hijacked a thread that you guys were having some fun with. Well, as long as it doesn't get totally misogynistic ;)

Well I take your point. However I dont think the analogy is strictly accurate! I'm not going to stand there and say "Heather, dont you dare lead - it's forbidden". Hey, I enjoy the challenge of following, and am looking forward to it ;). I'm just saying call a spade a spade. Let's accept what is the current reality and not get too wound up about it.

I for one dont want dancing to be politically correct. It's a refuge from all of that. We want men to lead well and women to follow gracefully, and bringing political correctness into the process diminishes the energy on both sides.

Can we get BOT?

[Mario7]

I have not carefully read the preceeding posts but I wanted to express an observation, here. I have heard that in BsAs, women who lead dances (with other women) are not asked to dance. (by men as a general rule)
I have danced with women I had seen leading and, with one exception, they started back leading half way thru the dance. That one exception was with a very special dancer, imo.
Now, as a general rule if I see a woman leading, I am not inclined to ask her for a dance. Just my own personal experience.

[Dave Bailey]

Er..I think Albanaich had his tongue planted firmly against his cheek at the time.:rolleyes:
"Irony" = "like iron" :)

I've danced plenty of times with men in class, never at a milonga though. I mean, why would I? Women are much nicer to dance with.

[Heather2007]

I have not carefully read the preceeding posts but I wanted to express an observation, here. I have heard that in BsAs, women who lead dances (with other women) are not asked to dance. (by men as a general rule)
I have danced with women I had seen leading and, with one exception, they started back leading half way thru the dance. That one exception was with a very special dancer, imo.
Now, as a general rule if I see a woman leading, I am not inclined to ask her for a dance. Just my own personal experience.

I was told when I started to hop over to the man's side in a class: "do be careful. You may not get asked to dance in the milonga2. Guys still ask me to dance. That said, I daresay there are guys who won't ask me to dance, ever, for the same reason as you. But why not? I am honestly curious as to why, if you see a woman who is leading you are less inclined to ask her to dance? Surely not every female lead will end up back-leading you in a dance. (Although...guilty me..I have done this on a number of occasions:cool:)

[dchester]

I've danced plenty of times with men in class, never at a milonga though. I mean, why would I? Women are much nicer to dance with.
Yep, I've never seen the point.

[Captain Jep]

I have not carefully read the preceeding posts but I wanted to express an observation, here. I have heard that in BsAs, women who lead dances (with other women) are not asked to dance. (by men as a general rule) .

Yes, I've observed it in BsAs. And even in nuevo venues it's frowned upon. Which rather surprised me, I have to say.


I have danced with women I had seen leading and, with one exception, they started back leading half way thru the dance. That one exception was with a very special dancer, imo..

Now that hasnt been my experience. Maybe I've just been lucky. So I'm going to give Heather the benefit of the doubt! :kissme:

[Steve Pastor]

We've probably all heard or read the stories of men practicing with men in the early days of AT, because there weren't enough women.
It is equally true that in the early days of the frontier West in the US, men danced the woman's part, thus being "heffer branded", again because there weren't enough women to go around.
One day I will post the picture of what to me are West Coast Swing dancers in Bakerfield, CA in the 50s with a "cowboy" band (probably western swing) supplying the music. There two women dancing together.
My mom and her sisters used to dance together. Again, the husbands, boyfriends, etc, didn't dance, so there was a shortage of men.
At the country western place some of the women I know have begun dancing together on occassion. I don't think anything of it. But that's because I know them, and I know that in general they prefer to dance with men. They just don't want to sit out certain songs/dances.
If I see women I don't know dancing together, I am less likely to ask them to dance, just like Mario; because you just don't know. Hard to believe, but there are women who don't much care for men. And I HAVE had unpleasant experiences ranging from outright rudeness to knowing that someone didn't really want to dance with you even though they did.

Yes, it's good to question things. But when you come to the conclusion that there are good reasons why men and women have different roles in dance, and other aspects of life, and that in reality men lead in dance, and women follow, I see ample justification for not using the neutered terms lead and follow, which my dictionary says are both verbs, not nouns.
Well, except for
"lead n. A soft, bluish-white dense metallic element..."

I find it amusing to read Western academic papers where the authors unwittingly act as cultural imperialists, projecting their views that gender roles are a social construct on other, more traditional cultures. There was a generation of parents in this country who gave their sons and daughters "the same opportunities" and found that they choose different things to play with and acted differently. Scientists are now confirming that there are differences between males and females that even extend to what parts of the brain are used more frequently.

One thing that I wish would change is that women ask men to dance more often. What's up with waiting for the guys to ask?
Now that's change we could use.

[Steve Pastor]

We've probably all heard or read the stories of men practicing with men in the early days of AT, because there weren't enough women.
It is equally true that in the early days of the frontier West in the US, men danced the woman's part, thus being "heffer branded", again because there weren't enough women to go around.
One day I will post the picture of what to me are West Coast Swing dancers in Bakerfield, CA in the 50s with a "cowboy" band (probably western swing) supplying the music. There two women dancing together.
My mom and her sisters used to dance together. Again, the husbands, boyfriends, etc, didn't dance, so there was a shortage of men.
At the country western place some of the women I know have begun dancing together on occassion. I don't think anything of it. But that's because I know them, and I know that in general they prefer to dance with men. They just don't want to sit out certain songs/dances.
If I see women I don't know dancing together, I am less likely to ask them to dance, just like Mario; because you just don't know. Hard to believe, but there are women who don't much care for men.

Yes, it's good to question things. But when you come to the conclusion that there are good reasons why men and women have different roles in dance, and other aspects of life, and that in reality men lead in dance, and women follow, I see ample justicifcation for not using the neutered terms lead and follow, which my dictionary says are both verbs, not nouns.
Well, except for
"lead n. A soft, bluish-white dense metallic element..."

I find it amusing to read Western academic papers where the authors unwittingly act as cultural imperialists, projecting their views that gender roles are a social construct on other, more traditional cultures. There was a generation of parents in this country who gave their sons and daughters "the same opportunities" and found that they choose different things to play with and acted differently. Scientists are now confirming that there are differences between males and females that even extend to what parts of the brain are used more frequently.

One thing that I wish would change is that women ask men to dance more often. What's up with waiting for the guys to ask?
Now that's change we could use.

[dchester]

We've probably all heard or read the stories of men practicing with men in the early days of AT, because there weren't enough women. The story I was told (who knows whether any of this is true or not), was that the reason the men practiced with each other was because many of the dance halls were private clubs that wanted to attract women. By having the men (in particular newbies) practice with them first, was to insure that they were adequate dancers, otherwise they would not be let into their clubs. Having good dancers (leaders) was a way of getting women into the clubs.

Also, I was told that occasionally someone would slip through who wasn't a good dancer, and they would literally be thrown out of the place. They wouldn't tolerate anyone who didn't measure up.

I guess things have changed now.

:cool:

[Dave Bailey]

One thing that I wish would change is that women ask men to dance more often. What's up with waiting for the guys to ask?
Now that's change we could use.
Absolutely. There was a discussion about this in this thread:
http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=27211

[bordertangoman]

One thing that I wish would change is that women ask men to dance more often. What's up with waiting for the guys to ask?
Now that's change we could use.

There are uk "milongueros" who wont dance with a woman if asked, as it goes against BsAs tradition. not a problem for me though, quite flattering, in fact.

[Steve Pastor]

Sometimes, things border on the bizzare.
Women will say to me, "You should ask me to dance" or, "Just grab me". Then they walk by me repeatedly without even looking at me. Or, they will walk over and stand in front of me, but not look at me, or even glance my way.
The cabeceo is based on the simple premise that you look at people if you want to engage with them, and avoid eye contact with people you don't wish to engage with.
It's not really that hard.
But, sheesh, the mixed messages I get sometimes from verbal invitations, either AT or country western! If someone can't or won't accept a conversational gambit as a prelude to an invitation to dance, or just plain has an uncooperative attitude, why would I then ask them to dance? I'd expect just as about much communication on the dance floor, and I'd like base level of being on the same wave length before commiting to up to 4 dances.
And, would anyone like to talk about how this relates to age? I know what I see, and I'm sure I'm not alone in my observations.

[Captain Jep]

There are uk "milongueros" who wont dance with a woman if asked, as it goes against BsAs tradition. not a problem for me though, quite flattering, in fact.

hmm... rare in my experience and anyway, those guys IMHO are up their own ****s. I'm also flattered to be asked.

I've sometimes wondered how guys in macho cultures feel if they go to a venue where they know nobody and then get rejected constantly when they ask the ladies to dance. Dont they find their "machismo" starts to fade? Or are they so block headed it makes no difference?

I sometimes think "dance energy" is like an electric charge. You go to a dance and usually it's a bit of a downhill slope. Everytime you get rejected or everytime a dance goes badly you lose a bit of that energy. That's why as an evening goes on people get more choosy. The sensible person keeps some good partners in reserve - that way they can get recharged....

To return to the thread, I think this is an advantage macho males have : they can sustain themselves longer on their own illusions! That means however bad their evenings go, they've still got energy for later ...

[Gssh]

The cabeceo is based on the simple premise that you look at people if you want to engage with them, and avoid eye contact with people you don't wish to engage with.
It's not really that hard.

The worst for me is followers who either have obvioiusly involved converstations, or are draped all over their boyfriends - when they tell me that they would have loved to dance with me - i just don't get it. I try really, really hard to dance with people who seem to be interested in dancing with me, but i am not a mindreader. Actually, the same thing goes for female leaders - i usually don't ask them, because i think of them as leaders. I wouldn't ask one of the other guys to follow me, and it feels equally preposterous to me ask a female leader. What works for me is that some of the women who both lead and follow change shoes when they switch - when they lead they wear flats, when they follow they break out the heels again (though this has lead me to in general think of women in flats as leaders, which is not always true).

Really, everytime i try to list all the things to look for to find a new partner i am surprised that anybody gets to dance at all. In the first 5 seconds of a tanda one has to figure out the music, figure out who of the women present would be fun to dance with, figure out which of these wome sit where, and if they want to dance right now, and if they have already comitted to somebody else to dance and so on.

Gssh

[Dave Bailey]

There are uk "milongueros" who wont dance with a woman if asked, as it goes against BsAs tradition.
Good. All the more for me then :)

Sometimes, things border on the bizzare.
Women will say to me, "You should ask me to dance" or, "Just grab me". Then they walk by me repeatedly without even looking at me. Or, they will walk over and stand in front of me, but not look at me, or even glance my way.
That is bizarre. :confused:

[bordertangoman]

Good. All the more for me then :)


That is bizarre. :confused:

The Colgate invisible shield.

I think I'g going off to acting school to learn how to make a dramatic entrance

(without use of a skylight or wetsuit)

maybe carry a tray of Ferraro Rocher?

[Captain Jep]

I've yet to meet anyone who actually likes Ferrero Rocher. However maybe having big sideburns and a red sash across your chest could do the trick ... ;)

[Heather2007]

One thing that I wish would change is that women ask men to dance more often. What's up with waiting for the guys to ask? Now that's change we could use.

As long as there are men who view Following as a role that should be filled only by women and if a woman were to take that leap into the world of a man, which is to start to learn to Lead thus risking her chances of ever being asked by a man to dance, as a Follower, she will never take that initiative to ask a man to dance. For to do so in the minds of such men of Victorian thinking would be regarded as pretty much forward. (In much the same way for some blokes it is not right for a woman to initiate a date). All women are aware that such a man exists (yep, even in this age of 21st Century technology) and so most will choose to tread safer grounds and not ask a man to dance.

A couple of men in the past have said to me when I have initiated a dance with them (as a Follower): "oh, I'm not as good as you" or "I'm going to show myself up" blah, blah, blah. I don't care. It's not a competition. But yeah, it does give me a bit of insight into why some men won't ask a female lead to dance.

[Gssh]

Well, i in general don't ask a female leader to dance because i assume they are there to lead - actually i find it borderline wrong that when in a group class there are more leaders than followers it is almost always expected that the female leaders will switch roles for the class (and not study what they came to study) - and i have a lot of restpect for the one teacher i saw who made sure that didn't happen even when the female leaders volunteered out of habit. He made sure all leaders rotated in and out as followers equally, regardless of gender.

Gssh

[Heather2007]

Well, i in general don't ask a female leader to dance because i assume they are there to lead - actually i find it borderline wrong that when in a group class there are more leaders than followers it is almost always expected that the female leaders will switch roles for the class (and not study what they came to study) - and i have a lot of restpect for the one teacher i saw who made sure that didn't happen even when the female leaders volunteered out of habit. He made sure all leaders rotated in and out as followers equally, regardless of gender.

Gssh

Okay, and what about if there are not enough men - say, 5 women extra are seated. Out of those 5 there are 3 that can lead. Teacher asks if any of those leading females would volunteer to be a leader for that class. How would you as the leader in that class view such a question posed by the teacher and if those followers then stood and stood in line with the gents? How would you view those Followers, now acting as Leaders?

[bordertangoman]

Okay, and what about if there are not enough men - say, 5 women extra are seated. Out of those 5 there are 3 that can lead. Teacher asks if any of those leading females would volunteer to be a leader for that class. How would you as the leader in that class view such a question posed by the teacher and if those followers then stood and stood in line with the gents? How would you view those Followers, now acting as Leaders?

iS this one of the questions you get in o level maths? I think the answer is 42.

The answer is no problem. . since i often I make up the numbers if their odd in my class I will be a leader or follower as needed.Just connect

I have just had a damascene revelation; the reason I have never perceived the "connection" in tango is because its as natural as breathing to me and I only notice if its not there.

[Captain Jep]

Ah but arent you still in search of that "perfect" dance? :)

[Captain Jep]

As long as there are men who view Following as a role that should be filled only by women and if a woman were to take that leap into the world of a man, which is to start to learn to Lead thus risking her chances of ever being asked by a man to dance, as a Follower, she will never take that initiative to ask a man to dance. For to do so in the minds of such men of Victorian thinking would be regarded as pretty much forward. (In much the same way for some blokes it is not right for a woman to initiate a date). All women are aware that such a man exists (yep, even in this age of 21st Century technology) and so most will choose to tread safer grounds and not ask a man to dance.

A couple of men in the past have said to me when I have initiated a dance with them (as a Follower): "oh, I'm not as good as you" or "I'm going to show myself up" blah, blah, blah. I don't care. It's not a competition. But yeah, it does give me a bit of insight into why some men won't ask a female lead to dance.

I dont completely understand the first part of this - but fair enough I had a bit of a rant yesterday you can have yours today :).

As I said earlier in the thread, most men want to dance with women, and vica versa. I would have just the same problems as you if I were to be a male follower at a milonga. In fact it would be harder....

I dont think any of your peeves are justification for women not asking men to dance. The only justification for it is that dance is a courtship ritual. In which women expect to be asked. On one level that sucks , on the other it's all part of the process.

As for not being asked to follow, there will always be people who are prejudiced. That's life. They've had bad experiences in the past, and they would rather take the easy way out. I'll be honest - I dont particularly like dancing with women who are too short (under 5ft 5 in heels). I've tried, it's not been much fun, I cant be bothered to try again. That's not to say I never dance with them, it's just not something I look for. Same with your situation.

I dont think BTW this has anything to do with chauvinism/ Victorian attitudes. It's just life. By which I mean , people reject others for all kinds of reasons. And most of the time they're illogical, irrational and stupid. But that's their right, and it's yours too.

[Captain Jep]

Well, i in general don't ask a female leader to dance because i assume they are there to lead - actually i find it borderline wrong that when in a group class there are more leaders than followers it is almost always expected that the female leaders will switch roles for the class (and not study what they came to study) - and i have a lot of restpect for the one teacher i saw who made sure that didn't happen even when the female leaders volunteered out of habit. He made sure all leaders rotated in and out as followers equally, regardless of gender.

Gssh

One more post then I'll shut up :rolleyes:. I thought you said somewhere you would dance with them if they were wearing heels not flat shoes? To me this is the "sign" I look for. Unfair to those who dont like heels, but again, that's life...

I think what you are saying is that if a woman came to the class to follow she would get the chance. Because the men would change roles where necessary. At least that's the way I read it. (And I agree - men need to know how a move "feels" on the receiving end - IMHO )

[elisedance]

Ah but arent you still in search of that "perfect" dance? :)

Did someone call? :roll:

[bordertangoman]

Ah but arent you still in search of that "perfect" dance? :)

No not really; I get them every now and again and I have my favourites, but it often comes from the inspiration from the music.

[elisedance]

No not really; I get them every now and again and I have my favourites, but it often comes from the inspiration from the music.

Oh, shucks.... :neutral:

[bordertangoman]

Oh, shucks.... :neutral:

hey i've been waiting patiently for you to drop by.

[Gssh]

Okay, and what about if there are not enough men - say, 5 women extra are seated. Out of those 5 there are 3 that can lead. Teacher asks if any of those leading females would volunteer to be a leader for that class. How would you as the leader in that class view such a question posed by the teacher and if those followers then stood and stood in line with the gents? How would you view those Followers, now acting as Leaders?

I think this is completely symmetrical - the main question is for me what role they came to work on - leaders can fill in as followers when there are to many of them, and vice versa, but they still need to have an opportunity to work on what they want to work on. I was not complaining about them switiching roles to make the class work, i was complaining about women considered followers even when they have self identified as leaders. I have become mainly aware of that because of a rant of a female friend of mine, who is an excellent follower, but who takes beginner classes to work on her leading. When there is a imbalance she usually ends up following most of the class - we wouldn't pick an arbitrary man to do that.

Actually, as a man who follows (badly) the same problem happens in reverse, too. Especially when there are more followers than leaders there are many many followers who would prefer to be lead than to lead me.


(But i think we have very different experiences of classes - the part of the sentence "there are 5 extra women seated" makes no sense to me - here there would be 1 extra woman seated, and 2 couples of 2 women dancing, and on the next rotation the 2 women leading would switch to being followes, and 2 of the women that were following would switch to leading, and that way everybody would get maximum time in their preferred role (well, at least in theory - some people cheat because they are too selfish to help everybody learn) - it would really only a problem if there were 2 extra female followers and 2 extra male followers - right now the male followers would probably be subtly forced to become leaders, and not rotate through as followers)

Gssh

[Gssh]

One more post then I'll shut up :rolleyes:. I thought you said somewhere you would dance with them if they were wearing heels not flat shoes? To me this is the "sign" I look for. Unfair to those who dont like heels, but again, that's life...

As a leader i dance with anybody. As a follower i don't dance at milongas, mainly because while following is interesting and something i think is very good for me to work on, it is not as enjoyable for me when a leader is on the same level as me - it becomes fun with a few good leaders, but they are at the milonga to have fun, too, and i KNOW(from having danced with people who follow like i do) i am not that exciting as a follower, so its reserved for practicas/class.

My informal rules:

leader (any gender) -> I hate them! Competition! Try to outmaneouver them so I get to dance with the enjoyable followers, and not them! I wish they just all stayed home! ;)

follower(any gender) -> Wonderful! Potential dance partner! Be nice to them! Ask them!

It gets only difficult when people switch, and i tend to go by the last dance i noticed, or by signs that i have noticed (like when they change shoes), or really, really obvious cabecos, or when they ask me, or when they are good friends i feel ok to ask them to switch roles just for that tanda, just for me (and that applies at the moment only with 1 female leader who does an amazing milonga, and 1 male leader who is great fun with more techno-ish nuevo (though we tend to switch lead, so it is something different) - as i said above i have at the moment nobody who i would ask to lead me (i will get there, though)).

Gssh

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

(But i think we have very different experiences of classes - the part of the sentence "there are 5 extra women seated" makes no sense to me - here there would be 1 extra woman seated, and 2 couples of 2 women dancing, and on the next rotation the 2 women leading would switch to being followes, and 2 of the women that were following would switch to leading, and that way everybody would get maximum time in their preferred role (well, at least in theory - some people cheat because they are too selfish to help everybody learn) - it would really only a problem if there were 2 extra female followers and 2 extra male followers - right now the male followers would probably be subtly forced to become leaders, and not rotate through as followers)

Gssh

You know, at times it is very hard to switch from leading to following within one class, especially if the material is not just connection exercises but something more elaborated. I am getting better at that now, but when I just started leading, it was almost impossible, as leading demanded a very different mindset, and a lot of concentration.

Also, there are followers who cannot lead (they hadn't tried at all, or the material in the class is above their head, because they are advanced followers, but still beginning leaders). So if they do not take a leader's role, it's not always out of being selfish. Sometimes they just cannot.

I do not think it is a student's duty to provide the right leader/follower ratio. It is nice if they volunteer and help to make the class work for everybody, not just for themselves, but primarily it is an instructor's responsibility.

[Heather2007]

iS this one of the questions you get in o level maths? I think the answer is 42.

Wrong. It's 666. Of course.

[elisedance]

..take it as a gift then... for thats what it was ;)

[Heather2007]

I had a bit of a rant yesterday you can have yours today :).

One of the drawbacks of the written word is that it's easy to misinterpret what is said or expressed or viewed as a "rant". I have written ranting articles for journals and ranted embarrassingly in front of a Sky News camera - both rants were utterly justifed. But tango? Nah. Never will talking about tango deserve one of my quality rants.;)

But yeah, you are right. People will have their preferences, foibles, choices etc. I guess, no matter the superficiality or shallowness of it. That's life. That's Man. Move on. Ho-hum.

[Heather2007]

You know, at times it is very hard to switch from leading to following within one class

My sister on many occasions has looked me squarely in the face and spoken to me in German. I don't speak German. She does this having just held a conversation with her German children. I'll look at her back, smile and wait for her to realise her error. Then, she'll roll her eyes and laugh and apologise. I daresay, had I been a male leader dancing with a female follower with the capacity to lead herself - I'd take the same stance. Grin and wait for her to stop back-leading. Smile and think, aaah, a lady that can lead. A female knowing how to lead (and indeed for men knowing how to follow) for me is like taking the time out to learn another language - an enriched addition to a language you already know.

And I wish you well in your other language, Lilly. Your language of dance.:cool:

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Aawww, thank you, Heather. I wish we could dance together sometime!

[Heather2007]

Aawww, thank you, Heather. I wish we could dance together sometime!

The gods always shine on those who are brave enough to step forward so yup, one day we shall find ourselves in each others gardens where we will have that blissful dance - yay! :-)

[Captain Jep]

Aawww, thank you, Heather. I wish we could dance together sometime!

Hi Lily

I was reading the other day that SF has one of the largest populations of female leaders in the world. Is that true? How does it affect the dynamics of the dancing community?

[elisedance]

[answering that question would seem to be akin to trying to sing an aria with your mouth full of stones]

[bordertangoman]

argleargleargleargleargle

[Dave Bailey]

Well, i in general don't ask a female leader to dance because i assume they are there to lead - actually i find it borderline wrong that when in a group class there are more leaders than followers it is almost always expected that the female leaders will switch roles for the class (and not study what they came to study) - and i have a lot of restpect for the one teacher i saw who made sure that didn't happen even when the female leaders volunteered out of habit. He made sure all leaders rotated in and out as followers equally, regardless of gender.

Gssh
Yeah, but this only works when you have a rigorously-enforced culture of rotation within a class.

I've been in classes where there's been no rotation, none at all - the only swapping that happened was when people took pity on the poor so-and-so who'd been standing out for 20 minutes...

Tango teachers, by-and-large, are rubbish at rotation - it's one of the things that annoys me most.
</rant>

Ahem.

Anyway, so I think that, in tango classes, if people are willing to swap roles to make numbers as close to even as possible, then I for one am grateful for them doing so.

[elisedance]

argleargleargleargleargle

hmmm, Carmen?? No, La traviata?? no still don't have it...

[TangoTricia]

[quote=Dave Bailey;662028] rubbish at rotation </rant>
Like most followers, and some leaders, Ive had at least a few rubbish experiences with rotation in classes, feelling that politeness led me to miss more than my fair share of turns. Then we went to a one-off workshop lead by Miguel Angel Pla, who said simply: when you have got something, do please change partners. And asked those sitting off to stand up, [proudly] to show they are available .... I thought dark thoughts about this new approach, because so far, the best experiences had been when teahers paid attention to the fairness of rotation, then tra-la, a miracle occurred.

Every leader who had got it, would go over to a follower who was standing off, to see how it worked with someone else. At leats one of them woudl be able to see why whatever wasnt working. And a few leaders who couldnt get anywhere with their current follower, tried to see what a change might achive, too. Anyone standing off had a role, too. And when a leader wnadered over, they would probably be good. Or at least exceptionaly thankful to get a different partner. It really worked well.

It also gave me some insight into why some teachers try to keep out of how the rotation game works. Do you really want to force someone to dance with someone, if they really don't want to. And i try not to fiddle the turns, but if ther eis someone who i find genuinely painful to dance with, why woudd I let them .... T xx

[Steve Pastor]

And I read more and more material in books published decades ago, it becomes more and more obvious that there are many people who teach AT who are rank amteurs at teaching classes. They may be good at tango, but there's more to it than that.
This doesn't mean, of course, that people who teach other dances are by default any better, but the AT community celebrates the lack of standardization of the dance at the same time it asks people to dance at what is really a pretty high level of "pure" lead / follow, leading with the torso, interpretation of the music, etc.

On the subject of following, I too have missed out on things in class because a lack of "follows" caused me to volunteer to follow for a while. When the introductory period was over, and I resumed leading, I had no idea what to do as a leader.
In this regard, teachers should make an effort to teach things to both the leaders and the followers much more frequently than usually happens. Now, there's a challenge.

[bordertangoman]

And I read more and more material in books published decades ago, it becomes more and more obvious that there are many people who teach AT who are rank amteurs at teaching classes. They may be good at tango, but there's more to it than that.
This doesn't mean, of course, that people who teach other dances are by default any better, but the AT community celebrates the lack of standardization of the dance at the same time it asks people to dance at what is really a pretty high level of "pure" lead / follow, leading with the torso, interpretation of the music, etc.

On the subject of following, I too have missed out on things in class because a lack of "follows" caused me to volunteer to follow for a while. When the introductory period was over, and I resumed leading, I had no idea what to do as a leader.
In this regard, teachers should make an effort to teach things to both the leaders and the followers much more frequently than usually happens. Now, there's a challenge.


A most interesting comment; I got some teaching instruction from my teachers in Cambridge and a vote of confidence. My experience is that almost every teacher or couple teaching have something different to offer. My following is fairly basic as I rarely dance it, but I can and I understand how to. At beginers level everyone swaps roles in the first exercises since a lot of the basic movements invovle co-ordination, balance, connection etc, which everyone needs to learn.

[dchester]

And I read more and more material in books published decades ago, it becomes more and more obvious that there are many people who teach AT who are rank amteurs at teaching classes. They may be good at tango, but there's more to it than that.
Ditto to that. In order to teach you need two separate skill sets.

1) How to teach. Among other things, this involves how to communicate in an unambiguous way. Also, how to focus/organize the class, so that what you are trying to teach gets adequately covered.

2) Knowledge on the subject/skills you are teaching.

Too many teachers focus on only one of these two entities.

[bordertangoman]

Ditto to that. In order to teach you need two separate skill sets.

1) How to teach. Among other things, this involves how to communicate in an unambiguous way. Also, how to focus/organize the class, so that what you are trying to teach gets adequately covered.

2) Knowledge on the subject/skills you are teaching.

Too many teachers focus on only one of these two entities.

I would make 1) more specific; how to teach people to dance ( a different set of skills to teaching an academic subject. I have looked at the methods other dance forms use such as imagery; contact improvisation.

How to teach a specific technique/ movement then how to make that movement Affettuoso with feeling and creat the dynamics.

How to get people unused to dancing to relax and respond to what they hear in the music.

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Hi Lily

I was reading the other day that SF has one of the largest populations of female leaders in the world. Is that true? How does it affect the dynamics of the dancing community?

I would say, our tango community is slightly on a leaders-heavy side in general, regardless of leaders' gender.
What do you mean by the dynamics? The community is very diverse and fast growing. Right now we have more than one milonga happening on any given night, so everybody can find his or her nich, more or less.
I do not lead in milongas btw, only in classes. Perhaps, one day.

[Captain Jep]

I would say, our tango community is slightly on a leaders-heavy side in general, regardless of leaders' gender.
What do you mean by the dynamics? The community is very diverse and fast growing. Right now we have more than one milonga happening on any given night, so everybody can find his or her nich, more or less.
I do not lead in milongas btw, only in classes. Perhaps, one day.

Is this their inner "Nietzsche"? :cool: (God, I'm being a nerd this evening)

Ah OK it's similar to elsewhere. I just imagined that you would have milongas where many of the women asked each other to dance, and the men sat there, slightly bewildered :rolleyes:. Or something like that!

Do you get many men learning to follow in the classes?

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Is this their inner "Nietzsche"? :cool: (God, I'm being a nerd this evening)

Ah OK it's similar to elsewhere. I just imagined that you would have milongas where many of the women asked each other to dance, and the men sat there, slightly bewildered :rolleyes:. Or something like that!

Do you get many men learning to follow in the classes?

We have some of the former (not much, although I have heard complaints from the gents that last night they wanted to dance with such and such lady, but alas, she was busy leading :) ) and a lot more of the latter.

My teacher leads all his male/leaders students in classes regularly. It is a part of the learning process. I have seen other instructors do that, too. In practicas, I see guys practice following all the time.
I haven't seen that many men come to a "regular" class with the sole purpose of learning the follower's role. However, I encountered quite a few men taking "follower tehcnique" classes and workshops.

We do have same-sex classes, classes directly advertized as "gay friendly", classes where people learn ways of switching lead and follow during one song. I do not take those, but from the videos I have seen, I might guess that is where you can meet more males who predominantly follow.

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

On a side note, isn't making fun of people's spelling mistakes and typos against this forum's rules? :rolleyes:

[Captain Jep]

On a side note, isn't making fun of people's spelling mistakes and typos against this forum's rules? :rolleyes:

Sorry if I caused offence. I was trying to be witty, rather than taking the mick :confused:. You can blame it on my "British" SOH ... :cool:

[Captain Jep]

We have some of the former (not much, although I have heard complaints from the gents that last night they wanted to dance with such and such lady, but alas, she was busy leading :) ) and a lot more of the latter.

My teacher leads all his male/leaders students in classes regularly. It is a part of the learning process. I have seen other instructors do that, too. In practicas, I see guys practice following all the time.
I haven't seen that many men come to a "regular" class with the sole purpose of learning the follower's role. However, I encountered quite a few men taking "follower tehcnique" classes and workshops.

We do have same-sex classes, classes directly advertized as "gay friendly", classes where people learn ways of switching lead and follow during one song. I do not take those, but from the videos I have seen, I might guess that is where you can meet more males who predominantly follow.

Interesting :
- I'm pretty sure that in the UK most men wouldnt go near a "follower technique" class. It would be seen as "too gay".
- Ditto a male teacher leading male students : it would be seen as "a little peculiar" (though that could be because men rarely follow here, so havent got the first clue about what to do)
- Most men in my local group wont even swap roles in a class ..

[bordertangoman]

Interesting :
- I'm pretty sure that in the UK most men wouldnt go near a "follower technique" class. It would be seen as "too gay".
- Ditto a male teacher leading male students : it would be seen as "a little peculiar" (though that could be because men rarely follow here, so havent got the first clue about what to do)
- Most men in my local group wont even swap roles in a class ..

Occasionally I follow because I think its a hoot; I've led and followed Korey Ireland, Mike from Cardiff and one of my local friends. Someone says as a teacher I should be wearing heel!; so if anyone has a size 7.5/8 Cifs they don't want ;)

[Heather2007]

Sorry if I caused offence. I was trying to be witty, rather than taking the mick :confused:. You can blame it on my "British" SOH ... :cool:

"Nietzsche"??? You're not being a nerd you're being an anarak :-(

[Heather2007]

And I read more and more material in books published decades ago, it becomes more and more obvious that there are many people who teach AT who are rank amteurs at teaching classes. They may be good at tango, but there's more to it than that.

Yup. Teaching requires a skill in good eyesight along with college degree in child psychology:D

[Captain Jep]

"Nietzsche"??? You're not being a nerd you're being an anarak :-(

Thank God - that's OK then ;)

I remember watching Fernando (Ghi) following. He had a pair of canary yellow heels on. And he was fantastic dancing in them! Wish I had the photoes ...

[bordertangoman]

Yup. Teaching requires a skill in good eyesight along with college degree in child psychology:D

and infinite patience, a sense of humour, a little pzazz.

I try to teach as if I'm sharing something interesting with friends