View Full Version : Not How... Not What.... But WHY?
As there is a very busy discussion going on in the brain thread I thought I'd start one about dancing.
Throughout the last few years I have taken A LOT of lessons with many coaches. Some were helpful right away, some over time. But no matter how many lessons you take and with whom, its all about what actually translates into your dancing.
We all have an idea about what our dancing should look like. We all watch tapes and often might browse youtube for hours watching the top couples. But seeing someone do it the right way and doing it your self is kinda hard. I believe that to have a consistant level of improvment, you need a lot of supporting information about how to use your body.
So in the topic I said not how, not what, but why. Let me explain.
Everyone knows that we need to move our hips in latin, why? Well its not because it just looks good. So lets say we have a lesson and the teacher tells us to do something, and they show us how to do it. You work on a couple measures of your ruitine, and then you go home. You work on these couple measures and they get better, but what about the rest of your ruitine? Maybe there are similar actions, but not 100% the same, or the timing is different, how can you transfer your new knowledge into all of your dancing? I strongly believe that you must understand WHY you have to do this and not just wiggle the hips around and lift there, and lower there.
Why do you need to get your weight 100% to your foot? Because then you have a vertical axis to perform the next action on.
Why do you need to have this axis? Because the blocks of the body will rotate much faster and will less restriction.
Why do we need to build resistance in the body? So that we can use it to rotate the other way.
I strongly believe that keeping this in mind while practicing or while taking a lesson will really help you improve your dancing. Ask questions when you're on a lesson, LOTS of questions. Really strive to understand why your teachers are telling you to do things, because you will most likely have to do the same thing on the next step.
After you know why you have to do this, you will have a much easier time figuring out what you have to do and how you have to do it. The ultimate goal is to use the body most efficiently and with the least amount of energy.
Hopefully this makes some kind of sense.
Chiron
02-06-2009, 02:40 PM
I really like this point! The past couple months I've been coming to the exact same realization (but wasn't quite there yet, thanks for the push). Recently my pro has been giving me more of the why for some of the things she has been telling me. I've also been begining to question why am I doing different things and some had some neat mental connections (fixing my reverse corte which in turn improved my feather was an unexpect bonus).
I think I'll start trying this a little bit more seriously and see what I can get out of it.
Bella
02-06-2009, 02:49 PM
As there is a very busy discussion going on in the brain thread I thought I'd start one about dancing.
The "busy" brain thread is about dancing, ultimately.
But anyway, this is something I've always like about your teaching, you had a reason for everything. Great advice.
Zhena
02-06-2009, 03:12 PM
A couple of months ago DH and I started WCS classes with a teacher who consistently presents the material this way. Last night the intermediate group spent almost the entire lesson reviewing the whip with inside turn ... one of the patterns you learn in the beginner class. Why does the leader have to do it this way? Because if he does it that other way, he will strain the follower's shoulder. Why do you have to take a small step here? Because a large step will pull your body, and your partner's body, out of alignment. If a poor leader does this, the follower can protect herself from injury by doing that ...
We really love the lessons, partly because they are fun (really), but also because we are learning so much that we can transfer to our other dancing. I can summarize the teacher's methods by saying she simply teaches the followers the principles they need to follow anything in WCS, and teaches the leaders how to use those principles in the context of whatever pattern she happens to be teaching at the moment.
She makes it clear that the leader has many options at certain points, so the follower has to be responsive rather than stepping through the pattern. Even if THIS pattern has the follower making a certain move, it doesn't mean that every time the leader does the beginning moves he will end it the same way.
We do have to think a lot. She will demonstrate the step, either as a leader or follower, doing something wrong. Then she asks the class to describe the error. She is developing our eye for proper movement. Of course we don't always see what she is trying to get us to see the first time she does it, but we are learning.
We have always tried to learn this way, and we appreciate teachers who include this information in their classes, but this is the first time we have been in a class where it is the focus.
We also like the fact that there are enough like-minded people in her class that she can teach this way. The people who don't like it don't come back, but we don't miss them.
elisedance
02-06-2009, 04:51 PM
As there is a very busy discussion going on in the brain thread I thought I'd start one about dancing.
ouch.... (sorry, that was my RB talking)
elisedance
02-06-2009, 04:53 PM
I suppose your post begs the question 'when' -that is when do we need to know what we do?
Do we need to know before we try it, while we are learning it, after we have learned it in context or after we've in essence mastered it?
Some guy
02-06-2009, 04:58 PM
I agree Nik, if everything becomes functional rather than ornamental, then it's much easier to understand, remember, and perform.
etp777
02-06-2009, 05:39 PM
Why is pretty much only thing I work with my buddy teacher. And it makes my head hurt, but I think is really improving my dancing. can fit a lot of "why" in 45 minutes though, takes me days/weeks to even start processing/applying it all. :)
I suppose your post begs the question 'when' -that is when do we need to know what we do?
Do we need to know before we try it, while we are learning it, after we have learned it in context or after we've in essence mastered it?
Always and Forever!!
You will never stop learning how to control and use your body. Either you will hear it from teachers or you will figure it out yourself through practice.
I like to hear about things in many different ways, as each time I remember different aspects and in the end they should all be ingrained :-)
Chris Stratton
02-06-2009, 11:29 PM
because
tangotime
02-07-2009, 02:52 AM
The ultimate goal is to use the body most efficiently and with the least amount of energy.
You,re nearly quoting my teaching mantra... " Minimum effort.. maximum efficiency "
dancepro
02-07-2009, 09:52 AM
You,re nearly quoting my teaching mantra... " Minimum effort.. maximum efficiency "
Sounds very much the same as I always heard.
My teacher used to say "It is not about how much you need to get the job done, it is about how little you need to get the job done. Good standard dancers are always looking for ways to get more by doing less".
Dancepro
latingal
02-07-2009, 12:55 PM
Absolutely agree with learning the whys of the dancing. Knowing them allows you to analyze and help yourself when things are not working well and coaches are not within reach.
And, on the subject of efficiency of movement - in my opinion, it's something that is not emphasized enough when the student gets past a certain stage.
I believe that essentially knowing the "why" is almost at direct odds with the whole "quantal shift" thread, because the other thread stressed not having to know why. However, as I posted in the other thread, I like to know the "why." Thanks for starting this thread Nik. The only thing that is perhaps a bit sad is that while you encouraged people in your initial post to listen to their teachers and question, and dig into the "whys," in fact very few teachers know the "whys" and thus will be rather non-helpful, even the more experienced ones.
Why is pretty much only thing I work with my buddy teacher. And it makes my head hurt, but I think is really improving my dancing. can fit a lot of "why" in 45 minutes though, takes me days/weeks to even start processing/applying it all. :)
That's a good course of action etp--hopefully though, and soon I hope, it starts to be less confusing and doesn't make your head hurt. The answer to the "why's" in dancing is often so simple as to hardly merit an answer. However, we have to be in a position where we can truly appreciate that simple of an answer, and that's the challenging part, I think.
shallidance
02-09-2009, 12:11 AM
Very nicely put. Thanks for sharing Nik!
As there is a very busy discussion going on in the brain thread I thought I'd start one about dancing.
Throughout the last few years I have taken A LOT of lessons with many coaches. Some were helpful right away, some over time. But no matter how many lessons you take and with whom, its all about what actually translates into your dancing.
We all have an idea about what our dancing should look like. We all watch tapes and often might browse youtube for hours watching the top couples. But seeing someone do it the right way and doing it your self is kinda hard. I believe that to have a consistant level of improvment, you need a lot of supporting information about how to use your body.
So in the topic I said not how, not what, but why. Let me explain.
Everyone knows that we need to move our hips in latin, why? Well its not because it just looks good. So lets say we have a lesson and the teacher tells us to do something, and they show us how to do it. You work on a couple measures of your ruitine, and then you go home. You work on these couple measures and they get better, but what about the rest of your ruitine? Maybe there are similar actions, but not 100% the same, or the timing is different, how can you transfer your new knowledge into all of your dancing? I strongly believe that you must understand WHY you have to do this and not just wiggle the hips around and lift there, and lower there.
Why do you need to get your weight 100% to your foot? Because then you have a vertical axis to perform the next action on.
Why do you need to have this axis? Because the blocks of the body will rotate much faster and will less restriction.
Why do we need to build resistance in the body? So that we can use it to rotate the other way.
I strongly believe that keeping this in mind while practicing or while taking a lesson will really help you improve your dancing. Ask questions when you're on a lesson, LOTS of questions. Really strive to understand why your teachers are telling you to do things, because you will most likely have to do the same thing on the next step.
After you know why you have to do this, you will have a much easier time figuring out what you have to do and how you have to do it. The ultimate goal is to use the body most efficiently and with the least amount of energy.
Hopefully this makes some kind of sense.
katandmouse
02-09-2009, 02:40 AM
I believe that essentially knowing the "why" is almost at direct odds with the whole "quantal shift" thread, because the other thread stressed not having to know why. However, as I posted in the other thread, I like to know the "why."
That's a good course of action etp--hopefully though, and soon I hope, it starts to be less confusing and doesn't make your head hurt. The answer to the "why's" in dancing is often so simple as to hardly merit an answer. However, we have to be in a position where we can truly appreciate that simple of an answer, and that's the challenging part, I think.
Josh, I think you just contradicted yourself without even knowing it.
I don't think knowing why is at odds with the "quantal shift" thread at all. In fact, knowing why simplifies things for me a GREAT DEAL. If I understand why we do something, that is often all I need to know. And it's easier to quiet my analytical brain down when it is less full.
I think your 2nd paragraph above says the same thing.
I do think its a little different than what was being said in the other thread because the why is then supported by many details oh how and what. It does not however always relate to "feeling right" or letting your body "feel the step".
I don't dance by just letting the body do what it feels like doing or by quieting my brain down to not think about all the details. Instead, I have many many many details constantly stirring around and correcting my body if I'm wrong. I can't always feel what doesn't look right, instead we have a mirror for that. We must constantly check through the list of details while we practice to engrave them into the body so that next time they hopefully happen without me thinking and analyzing so much.
If I understand why we do something, that is often all I need to know. And it's easier to quiet my analytical brain down when it is less full.
I hope thats not all you need to know, because this is just the reason for why we then have to do a lot of other things that are solely detail driven. If the left brain is the side that has all these details on how we do the step then that is the side thats going to be active while you are slowly putting all the pieces of the puzzle together. Also there is a difference between "less full" and "not enough".
As there is a big amount of beginner dancers on this site, I doubt their head is overpacked with details, so to say that you need to put all the details aside is wrong. You could though say that you need to only think about the important ones, or the ones that are better for you to focus on. Everyone is different in learning styles and in ways of controlling their body, so there is no direct answer to each individuals problem, instead we can throw details at it, until something sticks and works.
etp777
02-09-2009, 11:45 AM
That's a good course of action etp--hopefully though, and soon I hope, it starts to be less confusing and doesn't make your head hurt. The answer to the "why's" in dancing is often so simple as to hardly merit an answer. However, we have to be in a position where we can truly appreciate that simple of an answer, and that's the challenging part, I think.
Oh, it's definitely making things a lot simpler, or at least make more sense, in one respect. What makes my head hurt and makes it haard is making sure I apply the new why back to everything I already have been doign. Esp stuff where I realize that i was trying to imitate what I was seeing, but since I didn't necessarily understand all the components that went into accomplishing it, was doing something wrong. The new why makes it all make more sense, but making sure I don't stick with old habits, that's where it can get hard. :)
Esp stuff where I realize that i was trying to imitate what I was seeing, but since I didn't necessarily understand all the components that went into accomplishing it, was doing something wrong.
YES YES YES.
That is exactly the point I was trying to make. Thank you etp.
You can imitate and try to feel the movement all you want, but in the end when its time to reproduce it by yourself, I think you will have a very hard time doing it if you don't have supporting information, or if youre trying to block this supporting information out.
Everyone is different in learning styles and in ways of controlling their body, so there is no direct answer to each individuals problem, instead we can throw details at it, until something sticks and works.
And for some, throwing details at it is the exact wrong thing to do. You keep throwing details at me, I will get worse and worse and worse. I actually had a lesson a couple weeks ago. "Do this with your hip. Do that with your hip. Do this with your leg. Do this with your head." and on and on and on. It just kept getting worse until I was told, "Just think about going over there." And then it magically worked. I think we all have to find what is right for us. And for a lot of people it's the other thread of right brainyness. For some, it's the Nik and Josh and Chris can tear apart details for 12 pages to get the proper level of middle toe pressure. And for some, it's one learning technique for a while and then changing to another technique when they reach a certain point. I don't think the secret is knowing the why or the secret is being right brained. I think the real secret is finding the right balance of each kind of knowledge to take your own dancing (or whatever it might be that you're trying to excel at) to the level you want to take it to.
Larinda McRaven
02-09-2009, 12:42 PM
As there is a big amount of beginner dancers on this site, I doubt their head is overpacked with details,
It is all relative... their head is packed full. But to you it may seem like an insignificant amount.
pruthe
02-09-2009, 12:42 PM
In my case (standard), what currently feels natural to me is to lower my arms slightly, look down slightly, lower my left shoulder, and stick up little finger of my left hand. Those are the most obvious things. I don't even know I'm doing it, but my teacher tells me about it. So I'm trying to focus on correcting these things. I can consciously think about fixing a few things at a time. That and trying to remember my steps. I've been able to work on other things (e.g. technique) and after doing so many times, I start subconsciously doing. Then I have space in my conscious memory for thinking about other things. Now I don't normally get analysis paralysis to point where I stop when doing my steps. I usually flow right through them. It's just that it takes a while before everything starts working correctly. In my case, this process takes time and I don't see any shortcuts. (And yes, the whys are important to me too.)
Larinda McRaven
02-09-2009, 12:43 PM
I don't think the secret is knowing the why or the secret is being right brained. I think the real secret is finding the right balance of each kind of knowledge to take your own dancing (or whatever it might be that you're trying to excel at) to the level you want to take it to.
well said
one of my favorite lines from a song.
"It's not a religion, it's just a technique"
fascination
02-09-2009, 12:54 PM
yep...not a rule, but a tool
Larinda McRaven
02-09-2009, 01:07 PM
I do like knowing why though. I find it very helpful, especially when there are two movements that feel similar but have very different purposes, I like to know why they are different in orger to make that change in my body to achieve the different ends.
Bella
02-09-2009, 01:10 PM
In the very beginning, I remember imitating a lot of steps. I remember one lesson with Nik, I did the sliding doors and he looked at me like I had 5 heads. Once I gained the proper information, the technique (like fas & lar said) became a tool and everything then fell into place.
I'm likin this thread. Very informative :)
As far as asking the "whys" - I did this all weekend!
fascination
02-09-2009, 01:32 PM
I do like knowing why though. I find it very helpful, especially when there are two movements that feel similar but have very different purposes, I like to know why they are different and how to make that change in my body to achieve the different ends.
agree
Nik- I think knowing "why" we do things the way we do is very important. I'm not currently taking lessons but you struck my curiosity with something you mentioned. You wrote that we don't move our hips in the latin dances because it looks good. So why do we do this?
chica latina
02-09-2009, 02:37 PM
Isn't to allow us to collect our weight and have greater leg speed in the other leg?
mamboqueen
02-09-2009, 02:39 PM
meh...I thought it was to show off the skirt ;)
And for some, throwing details at it is the exact wrong thing to do. You keep throwing details at me, I will get worse and worse and worse. I actually had a lesson a couple weeks ago. "Do this with your hip. Do that with your hip. Do this with your leg. Do this with your head." and on and on and on. It just kept getting worse until I was told, "Just think about going over there." And then it magically worked. I think we all have to find what is right for us. And for a lot of people it's the other thread of right brainyness. For some, it's the Nik and Josh and Chris can tear apart details for 12 pages to get the proper level of middle toe pressure. And for some, it's one learning technique for a while and then changing to another technique when they reach a certain point. I don't think the secret is knowing the why or the secret is being right brained. I think the real secret is finding the right balance of each kind of knowledge to take your own dancing (or whatever it might be that you're trying to excel at) to the level you want to take it to.
Thats a good point, but I have a question for you... After your teacher told you all these details and then said now just move to the foot, did you still think about those details while just moving to the foot? And if he didn't tell you anything at all before you trying to just move to your foot, do you think it would of still worked so well?
I'm not saying that you need to over cramp you mind with just details, but you need to have them before you can start thinking about the overall picture.
Heres a good way of thinking about it. Imagine a puzzle that consists of 100 pieces that form one complete picture. You can see this picture on the cover of the puzzle box but when you open it up, you just see a bunch of pieces. Its up to you to figure out exactly how they all fit together, but they must all be in their right place for the picture to come out just like the one of the box.
Nik- I think knowing "why" we do things the way we do is very important. I'm not currently taking lessons but you struck my curiosity with something you mentioned. You wrote that we don't move our hips in the latin dances because it looks good. So why do we do this?
lol, this will not be so effective because I would have to show this while talking about it, but its something like the hips adjust under the spine as we transfer the weight onto the foot to maintain a vertical axis. Then they rotate, this is to continue the movement of the spine as we set up the foot and position of the body for the next step.
Please don't flame this post because this is not a full explanation and there are a lot of other things associated with this that I just don't feel like typing right now.
I did write a pretty long post about this a year back or so.
Terpsichorean Clod
02-09-2009, 03:48 PM
As there is a big amount of beginner dancers on this site, I doubt their head is overpacked with details,It is all relative... their head is packed full. But to you it may seem like an insignificant amount.
In one leg and out the other, thank you very much! :)
Terpsichorean Clod
02-09-2009, 03:49 PM
lol, this will not be so effective because I would have to show this while talking about it, but its something like the hips adjust under the spine as we transfer the weight onto the foot to maintain a vertical axis. Then they rotate, this is to continue the movement of the spine as we set up the foot and position of the body for the next step.
Please don't flame this post because this is not a full explanation and there are a lot of other things associated with this that I just don't feel like typing right now.
I did write a pretty long post about this a year back or so.
This one? http://danceforums.com/showthread.php?p=551118
elisedance
02-09-2009, 04:02 PM
You are positively scary TC ;). Just don't become a lawyer OK? :p
That is indeed the one. The one thing that I would correct that I did not talk about in the post so much is the spine movement. When youre doing that weight transfer from side to side, don't focus so much on making the movement happen with the hips but instead from moving your vertical spine over to the other foot.
Reading this now, I can see that there can be a misconseption when trying to understand "move your hip to the side". Youre moving the body weight to the side, which is basicly the spine, and because of that, the hips will adjust under it, creating the pendulum movement.
Again this works MUCH better when there is visual along with this explanation.
And on a side note, if nice to see that I pretty much think and teach exactly the same, although I now have MUCH MUCH more details about this action.
Laura
02-09-2009, 04:33 PM
In one leg and out the other, thank you very much! :)
HA! Love it!
Bella
02-09-2009, 04:55 PM
Dansa! I hope you're reading this thread girl!
dansa
02-09-2009, 05:40 PM
Dansa! I hope you're reading this thread girl!
yes sure i am., thanks for the great advice!! :banana:
kathyt cupcake
02-09-2009, 06:41 PM
So we actually have three coaches who are in different places on the spectrum of how much "why" they teach and who they teach it to. One of our coaches is huge into the "why" and pretty much gives all levels from newcomer to gold+ a lot of detail, all the time. One of our coaches gives us very little "why" and for technique we do more drilling and repetition with detail about what the end result should be. Our third coach falls somewhere in the middle, and gives the newer dancers less detail and the more experienced dancers more detail on why certain things are happening and what produces what kind of movement. I feel like I'm describing the three bears.
Thats a good point, but I have a question for you... After your teacher told you all these details and then said now just move to the foot, did you still think about those details while just moving to the foot? And if he didn't tell you anything at all before you trying to just move to your foot, do you think it would of still worked so well?
Actually the details weren't just unhelpful to me, but totally counterproductive. I would literally be told to raise my left hip and I'd end up with my left hip lowering. It's just not how I learn. Anytime I get told, "just go that way" or "just follow your hand" or "just ..." by a person that's a skilled enough instructor to know what the right "just..." to say is, I get it, I do it, it sticks. If someone tries to explain the details, more than likely, my brain will be attempting to process and my body is going in the wrong direction. Sometimes it just has to be dragged out, I concentrate on one thing, then when I get that, I concentrate on the next. And in the end get the same end result that concentrating on the details would get me, except that I actually get there instead of running from my lesson with brains oozing from my ears and nose.
I took a preceptor skills class for work last week. We did this exercise where we had to teach in a way that wasn't our learning style. So us visual learners had to teach an auditory learner or tactile learner and auditory learners had to teach visual learners. Now in theory, I understand people learn different from me. But listening to the person next to me teaching an auditory learner something I already knew how to do, I got confused. I already knew it, but hearing someone describe in detail out loud how to do it, confused me. But auditory learners are just "that was great, you made it sound easy." I knew that some people learned differently, and understood in theory that people learn differently, but the exercise really drove home that just because I don't get it, doesn't mean it's not perfect for someone else, and just because they don't get it, doesn't mean it's not perfect for me.
Point being, it's hard for someone that learns in a particular way to imagine that there are other ways (not better, not worse, just different) to learn. You put me and you in a room learning how to do some random thing neither of us has done before, we would HAVE to be taught in different ways.
It's important to remember when it comes to teaching and learning that people have different ways of thinking. It's why people need a degree in education to teach 5th graders, not just be able to win the gameshow "Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader?"
mamboqueen
02-09-2009, 08:57 PM
Nice turbo.
It just now dawned on me what the heck you were talking about here. *doh*
It is all relative... their head is packed full. But to you it may seem like an insignificant amount.
Yes, packed full -- and yet, when more stuff presents itself for packing, more space appears, "just in time".
I do like knowing why though. I find it very helpful, especially when there are two movements that feel similar but have very different purposes, I like to know why they are different in order to make that change in my body to achieve the different ends.
I would actually say that learning/knowing how pieces fit together, what certain similarities and differences are between situations, and the like, is an aesthetically pleasing intellectual exercise that represents a significant portion of the fun of dancing (and other things), for me.
Heres a good way of thinking about it. Imagine a puzzle that consists of 100 pieces that form one complete picture. You can see this picture on the cover of the puzzle box but when you open it up, you just see a bunch of pieces. Its up to you to figure out exactly how they all fit together, but they must all be in their right place for the picture to come out just like the one of the box.
I like this way of putting it because, although I ask many questions (indeed I am infamous for this among my teachers), I seldom ask "why X?" I more typically ask, "how do X, Y, and Z fit together in this situation?"
But actually a lot of the appeal (for me) comes from the fact that there are actually more like ~10 than ~100 "pieces". It's more than 10, but -- thinking about standard -- if you count up stuff like footwork, rise/fall, swing, sway, shape, promenade and inside-/outside- partner, CBM, alignments, turn, etc., I don't think the number gets up towards 100, and it's certainly not ~1000. Each independent piece is by itself conceptually fairly simple. In fact, even the rules that dictate how various pieces relate to each other are for the most part straightforward. Yet, an elegant and rich complexity emerges from the relationships and dynamics between these simple components. At least, that's my student view of it.
For me, it has proven both appealing and useful to my dance study (in a practical and measurable way) to increase my appreciation and understanding of that complexity.
I think we all have to find what is right for us. And for a lot of people it's the other thread of right brainyness. For some, it's the Nik and Josh and Chris can tear apart details for 12 pages to get the proper level of middle toe pressure. And for some, it's one learning technique for a while and then changing to another technique when they reach a certain point. I don't think the secret is knowing the why or the secret is being right brained. I think the real secret is finding the right balance of each kind of knowledge to take your own dancing (or whatever it might be that you're trying to excel at) to the level you want to take it to.
Well said.
Yes, packed full -- and yet, when more stuff presents itself for packing, more space appears, "just in time".
Also I think something to add is that some of the new details replace some old details that have either been worked in or are no longer so important.
latingal
02-09-2009, 11:23 PM
Glad to have both TC and Nik on the ball....*grin*
Also I think something to add is that some of the new details replace some old details that have either been worked in or are no longer so important.
Teaching is in some ways an exercise in telling the truth through a series of lies. But remembering which lie was told when and for what reason is not without value.
dancepro
02-09-2009, 11:35 PM
But actually a lot of the appeal (for me) comes from the fact that there are actually more like ~10 than ~100 "pieces". It's more than 10, but -- thinking about standard -- if you count up stuff like footwork, rise/fall, swing, sway, shape, promenade and inside-/outside- partner, CBM, alignments, turn, etc., I don't think the number gets up towards 100, and it's certainly not ~1000. Each independent piece is by itself conceptually fairly simple. In fact, even the rules that dictate how various pieces relate to each other are for the most part straightforward. Yet, an elegant and rich complexity emerges from the relationships and dynamics between these simple components. At least, that's my student view of it.
Just to give an example, there are actually (in the Body school) 20 basic rules, on the 3rd level there are a little over a 400 rules and the 6th level there a well over 8000 rules.
You are right that when each one of these rules is talked about independently, it all sounds really easy and straightforward. Doing them all together and in harmony does take a little practice.
Dancepro
Just to give an example, there are actually (in the Body school) 20 basic rules, on the 3rd level there are a little over a 400 rules and the 6th level there a well over 8000 rules.
You are right that when each one of these rules is talked about independently, it all sounds really easy and straightforward. Doing them all together and in harmony does take a little practice.
Dancepro
I think we're saying the same thing. My point is that it's the explosion of complexity from a handful of simply defined concepts that provides the richness of experience.
On another thread "everyone" just agreed that the technique book is a valuable reference, yet using it as a how-to is futile. For me, this highlights the reason: Look, 8k+ "rules" to achieve the rather simply-expressed end states written down using a pittance of notation! (Yes I understand that the technique books are not universally regarded as totally correct and complete, but I hope the point stands.)
dancepro
02-10-2009, 12:34 AM
I think we're saying the same thing. My point is that it's the explosion of complexity from a handful of simply defined concepts that provides the richness of experience.
On another thread "everyone" just agreed that the technique book is a valuable reference, yet using it as a how-to is futile. For me, this highlights the reason: Look, 8k+ "rules" to achieve the rather simply-expressed end states written down using a pittance of notation! (Yes I understand that the technique books are not universally regarded as totally correct and complete, but I hope the point stands.)
I do think we are on the same page so to speak.
There are several people that have tried to get one of the top dancers (like Richard Gleave) to write a technique book about what is done on a higher level of dancing. He refused and said that it would virtually impossible to write a complete explanation of what is done at a high level. He said it would be much easier to teach as private lessons, then to try and explain it with words with no visuals and/or feelings, to back it up. None of the top teachers that I took lessons from, where interested in revising the technique books and include all the how-to information in it.
But yes I do agree that the rules start with only 20 "branches" and ends up being a full well grown tree.
Dancepro
elisedance
02-10-2009, 04:57 AM
... reflecting dance itself which starts from people and is catalogued in books (and DF for that matter). Trying to write it accurately is rather like trying to describe a colour (try to do so to a colour blind person ' what do you see when you look at blue?). Even video can only go so far - I don't think you can get away from it but to learn dance you have to feel it. Even a robotic simulator (such as a flight simulator) that was designed to put you through the actual motions would not teach you to dance because it would miss the critical part which is that you have to drive it yourself.
No wonder the experts refused to try - and how wise.
OTOH learning 'how to learn' dance is quite different - one can learn methods to learn. Which is I suppose both what this, and the rather long quantal shift threads area about. What is the best way to approach learning dancing?
It just now dawned on me what the heck you were talking about here. *doh*
lolz
mamboqueen
02-10-2009, 08:04 AM
lolz
well, had it been a blower, I would have recognized it *lol*
well, had it been a blower, I would have recognized it *lol*
I got one of those on the other car, I'll put it up later. They do look very similar though.
mamboqueen
02-10-2009, 08:26 AM
yeah, I think the angle you're showing this one on (from the top) made it look more like a snail to me *lol* I'm used to seeing the hood cutout and the blower from the side. Ahhh...the good ol' days of street car racing *lol*
mamboqueen
02-11-2009, 06:56 AM
Your misspent youth?
well that, and three older brothers ;)
elisedance
02-11-2009, 07:24 AM
what the heck is this thread about anyway? Is this supposed to be a LB counter to RB? If so, both seem to have their vulnerabilities: the RB is always subject to LB dominance (when it should remain quiet) while the LB seems is vulnerable to itself - going off into tangential or byzentine details and loosing its own train of thought.
We are starting to sound like modern day stegosauruses.
http://myweb.bloomu.edu/jdsander/stegasaurus.jpg
most famous perhaps for having two brains: one between the eyes like us and another in its pelvis....
OTOH it seems to me that the threads have encapsulated the hazzards for both. Perhaps its time to start the MB thread (mid brain.....) and put it all together? Or maybe thats 'how are your lessons going' :rolleyes:
etp777
02-11-2009, 08:32 AM
most famous perhaps for having two brains: one between the eyes like us and another in its pelvis....
I've been accused of suffering from the same condition. :car:
Larinda McRaven
02-11-2009, 09:44 AM
BOT please. I think Nik was serious about his thread. Les not pull it apart into sensless dribble, we have enough of those threads already.
what the heck is this thread about anyway? Is this supposed to be a LB counter to RB?
That is the last thing this thread is meant to be, just for some reason everyone focuses on what side of the brain to use, something that I think is totally irrelevant to dancing.
I don't think it matters what side or your brain you use to think about this, what does matter is how the information you receive on your lessons will improve your dancing.
etp777
02-11-2009, 10:18 AM
Absolutely Nik. of course, i tend to get picky about that in most respects. Don't want to be classified, or put into a group. i'm me, an individual, and that's all that matters to me. I have to work with myself and my learning methods, not some group someone thinks I fit into.
elisedance
02-11-2009, 12:13 PM
That is the last thing this thread is meant to be, just for some reason everyone focuses on what side of the brain to use, something that I think is totally irrelevant to dancing.
I don't think it matters what side or your brain you use to think about this, what does matter is how the information you receive on your lessons will improve your dancing.
Agreed totally... I initially learned tried action by action (e.g. foot forward, heel toe etc) working up to steps and then routines. This clearly worked up to a point - in particular I know I got a lot of fundamental technique for how to move my body in ballroom dancing this way (BTW what I say here refers only to standard and to me). However, it did not teach me to dance.
Now its kind of reversed. I don't learn the routine at all, I learn how to follow the lead - the result is whatever is in the leads head/body (a routine I suppose, except when it isn't such as on a short floor) so the first thing is to dance. We then go over points where I am not following correctly (such as errors in my body alignment, energy detection of rise etc) till I get those correct. Perhaps the most important point is that when I learn a specific following improvement its irrelevant what the step was - it applies to all similar actions. Thus, no longer do I learn by each step but by practical dance method. At least as a follow, I can't see any point in the other method at all - the information I get is not useful to me and only causes me to panic that I will not follow the lead.
pruthe
02-11-2009, 01:32 PM
Agreed totally... I initially learned tried action by action (e.g. foot forward, heel toe etc) working up to steps and then routines. This clearly worked up to a point - in particular I know I got a lot of fundamental technique for how to move my body in ballroom dancing this way (BTW what I say here refers only to standard and to me). However, it did not teach me to dance.
Now its kind of reversed. I don't learn the routine at all, I learn how to follow the lead - the result is whatever is in the leads head/body (a routine I suppose, except when it isn't such as on a short floor) so the first thing is to dance. We then go over points where I am not following correctly (such as errors in my body alignment, energy detection of rise etc) till I get those correct. Perhaps the most important point is that when I learn a specific following improvement its irrelevant what the step was - it applies to all similar actions. Thus, no longer do I learn by each step but by practical dance method. At least as a follow, I can't see any point in the other method at all - the information I get is not useful to me and only causes me to panic that I will not follow the lead.
Shouldn't a follow use both approaches while learning? That is, besides working on following skills and places where not following correctly, also work on more detailed skills such as you first started out with. Kind of a top down, bottom up approach at the same time. I can understand how you might want to go more top down at first, but the bottom up skills could also improve your following and make your dancing look even better. I know this might take more time to do, but maybe it's worth it. Just wondered what you and others thought. (BTW, bottom up wouldn't mean memorizing the routine. It's more about learning best technique for doing things, for example, in completing different figures.)
elisedance
02-11-2009, 03:41 PM
Thats what the first bit was about ;) I've worked on foot action etc for over 7 years using the traditional approach so now when I learn a new figure this tends to kick in (if you excuse the term) automatically - not that there isn't always some fine tuning to do. Perhaps the stage I'm at is ready for Open after paying dues in syllabus ;).
[quote: Nik That is indeed the one. The one thing that I would correct that I did not talk about in the post so much is the spine movement. When youre doing that weight transfer from side to side, don't focus so much on making the movement happen with the hips but instead from moving your vertical spine over to the other foot.]
Thanks Nik, I'll be thinking about that from now on :-)
[quote: Nik That is indeed the one. The one thing that I would correct that I did not talk about in the post so much is the spine movement. When youre doing that weight transfer from side to side, don't focus so much on making the movement happen with the hips but instead from moving your vertical spine over to the other foot.]
Thanks Nik, I'll be thinking about that from now on :-)
youre very welcome.
I have been comming up with different ways of teaching this, and i found something last week which has been super helpful to students and makes them instantly understand/feel this concept. I dont feel like typing about it now but im sure youll see a post about it soon.
katandmouse
02-13-2009, 02:52 AM
I do think its a little different than what was being said in the other thread because the why is then supported by many details oh how and what. It does not however always relate to "feeling right" or letting your body "feel the step".
I don't dance by just letting the body do what it feels like doing or by quieting my brain down to not think about all the details. Instead, I have many many many details constantly stirring around and correcting my body if I'm wrong. I can't always feel what doesn't look right, instead we have a mirror for that. We must constantly check through the list of details while we practice to engrave them into the body so that next time they hopefully happen without me thinking and analyzing so much.
I hope thats not all you need to know, because this is just the reason for why we then have to do a lot of other things that are solely detail driven. If the left brain is the side that has all these details on how we do the step then that is the side thats going to be active while you are slowly putting all the pieces of the puzzle together. Also there is a difference between "less full" and "not enough".
As there is a big amount of beginner dancers on this site, I doubt their head is overpacked with details, so to say that you need to put all the details aside is wrong. You could though say that you need to only think about the important ones, or the ones that are better for you to focus on. Everyone is different in learning styles and in ways of controlling their body, so there is no direct answer to each individuals problem, instead we can throw details at it, until something sticks and works.
Whatever works is really what matters. But what you heard in the right brain thread is that people have discovered a way of learning that has really accelerated things for them. They are thrilled and want to share it with others. That's all. No one is saying you have to do it that way. You find what works for you. I would also like to clarify again, though, that the RB method is not devoid of knowledge or details. It's just that we USE and process that information differently. That's where a lot of misunderstanding has taken place.
Did you ever hear Luca Baricchi's lecture on "Form Follows Function" that was on Youtube for a while? He really pointed out what we really should be concerned about - it's "function." Pretty hard to concentrate on function when your mind is consumed with all the little details. Imagine walking and at the same time thinking about when to move the foot forward, what's happening to the other foot when you do, what part of the foot to land on, etc. And yet, that's what many do when they try to dance. Luca had some pretty harsh comments on how that comes across on the competition dance floor. It's not something that is easily left behind and it shows. Here are some comments from someone on Luca's video that explains further. I think you will like this: http://www.fccdance.org/2008/05/luca-barruchi-this-is-football.html
As for beginners not having their head overpacked with details yet, they most certainly do. I can't tell you how many people I know who were ready to quit after the first lesson because their heads were swimming. I mentioned this example in the other thread, but I'll state it again. I was taking a WCS class as a leader. Got a woman in the rotation who said to me she was ready to leave because she was so confused. I explained to her she only had to think about 2 goals - to get to point B and to reconnect with me. I showed her what reconnection felt like. I didn't need to tell her how. I readjusted her until she was there and felt it. She got the move instantly in our first try and she was shocked at how easy it was! She was also honestly the BEST lady in the room at doing it, even though there were more experienced dancers there.
All the details the teacher used to try and get her to do what she did so easily and naturally were really unnecessary in this case. That's not always the case, but I do think details are overrated and quite often even counterproductive.
But to each his own. As long as everyone is progressing, having fun, and really dancing, that's what matters. I wish all of that for you!
Chris Stratton
02-13-2009, 09:33 AM
Did you ever hear Luca Baricchi's lecture on "Form Follows Function" that was on Youtube for a while? He really pointed out what we really should be concerned about - it's "function."
It's quite true that there are a lot of people out there trying to accomplish form, with no real grasp of the why and as a result no real judgment of amount, so what they achieve can at times be an almost comical mockery of form. ("Elbows out of their ears" as a friend once put it).
However, the other side of the coin is that there are a variety of plausible means of functioning, and some hold more long term promise (or even health safety) than others. If form follows function, then form is also to a degree going to be diagnostic of function.
So if you see a problem in the frame or footwork, that doesn't necessarily mean that you should concentrate on that problem. But it doesn't mean that you should ignore it either. What it really means is that you should go examine the function, and figure out what is causing that unexpected character in the form.
katandmouse
02-13-2009, 10:30 AM
If form follows function, then form is also to a degree going to be diagnostic of function.
So true. I gave the example previously of me learning foxtrot feather step. My teacher taught me I had to hit the heel down/toe up position, and try as I may, I could not do it with balance. Later, after I learned WHY that happens, and then practiced with a different goal - that of moving across my feet correctly so as to be able to keep balance and use my sending and receiving legs, that position came naturally and quite easily. What my first teacher didn't know or didn't tell me was what the bad position was diagnositic of. Would have helped me a LOT to know that!
What it really means is that you should go examine the function, and figure out what is causing that unexpected character in the form.
I love this. This is exactly how I approach things! In other words, I don't try to build the function piece by grueling piece. I put it altogether best I can with what I know and have been taught, go through my trial and error, and then if things aren't just right, the details I've picked up along the way come in with their repair work.
There are, however, many who make the form their goal, and that is what Luca commented on. Asking and knowing why, which this thread is about, can help prevent that. It puts our attention back on the function.
No one is saying you have to do it that way.
Don't want to argue with you here but I do get the feeling that is exactly what you were saying.
Not going to search the whole 80+ pages, but ....
You need a very active right brain to dance because this is predominately a right brain activity.
In dance we want the right side dominant.
katandmouse
02-13-2009, 07:50 PM
Don't want to argue with you here but I do get the feeling that is exactly what you were saying.
Not going to search the whole 80+ pages, but ....
You're cute. :-)
Well, I still stand behind that. I do believe that to REALLY dance, you need to be "right brain" dominant; i'm talking about with musicality, expression, those things that make this an artform. What road you take to get there is up to you. I choose the right fork because I found it to be less bumpy and a lot shorter. But some people can't find the right fork, or their training wheels need a different kind of pavement. That's ok. Hopefully, we'll all meet at the end.
latingal
02-14-2009, 12:21 AM
But some people can't find the right fork, or their training wheels need a different kind of pavement.
It's good to have information, but in my mind - bad to infer that one way is the only way to go.
With 80+ pages of information on that one way, I think this thread was to concentrate on other ways that might enhance the learning process. As much as we welcome open discourse, coming here to say that the other thread is the way to go defeats that purpose.
elisedance
02-14-2009, 12:50 AM
All we can really say is what works for us. I think Bella's thread on learning types is particularly interesting - she predicted that those of us who click with RB-type learing might be kinesthetic. On the (simple) test that was linked I came out as extremely so which is probably why the RB discussion resonated so much.
She also predicted that someone who learns verbally might fall into the LB club. I don't know if that is the case but it would be interesting to do a larger sample.
By the way when I say it works for me I'm talking about real results not just feeling like it fits. But more on that later.
latingal
02-14-2009, 01:00 AM
All we can really say is what works for us.
[...]
By the way when I say it works for me I'm talking about real results not just feeling like it fits. But more on that later.
But ed, you just reinforced my point. It's great that it works for you and we have 80+ pages on what works for you! Can we get a few uninterrupted pages of what might work for someone else without hearing why your way is better? (that discussion belongs in the 80+ page thread, yes?)
SDsalsaguy
02-14-2009, 02:45 AM
As lg points out, there's already a significant RB thread discussion for those who are interested, find it helpful, or what to continue commenting on it. Anyone who thinks that there is only one way to learn has no business teaching (or commenting on teaching for that matter).
Larinda McRaven
02-14-2009, 09:43 AM
Whether it works for you or not is besides the point.
Mostly we just want to keep one type of discussion from cannibalize other threads and ultimatley the whole board.
Nik started this thread specifically to get away from that type of talk. And he should have that opportunity.
Bella
02-14-2009, 10:58 AM
I think this RB/LB topic has been exhausted, you're going to have people agree/disagree, love it/hate it, crossover with other threads, at the of the day - it's what works for you, period... and that's something we can all agree on.
What Kat was doing is stringing all perspectives together, and stating her opinion. With threads on brain, learning curve, the "whys" - they coincide regardless. Don't be hard on Kat, I don't think Nik is losing sleep over it lol.
Bella
02-14-2009, 11:11 AM
she predicted that those of us who click with RB-type learing might be kinesthetic.
She also predicted that someone who learns verbally might fall into the LB club.
I said this? lol.
and that's something we can all agree on.
http://www.s2ki.com/forums/html/emoticons/argue.gif No, obviously we can't.
We should change the name of the site to Brain-Forums because thats what seems to be the hot topic. The whole thread started because there was a question, "How to get good, fast".
Anyone get really good really fast by using their right brain here? Have any of those world champions come out and say RB is the way to go? I don't understand why its being pushed like its the answer to everything.
http://www.s2ki.com/forums/html/emoticons/Off-Topic2.gif
Bella
02-14-2009, 11:28 AM
I hear you.
Ok everyone wins, everyone's right... yes, let's get back to topic.
So why's... I did this a lot with my coaches these past couple weeks. Actually one them were taken back when I asked lol. Nik's right when everything is given a purpose, it makes things feel so much better. Personally, I do need to know what the step is, how it's delivered, then why it's being delivered that particular way... why's are like the cherry on ice cream I think... or that red ribbion on a fabulous valentine's gift ;)
Chris Stratton
02-14-2009, 11:39 AM
Anyone get really good really fast by using their right brain here?
I would say it's almost a given that anyone who manages to get really good really fast would have done it that way.
I don't understand why its being pushed like its the answer to everything.
I think the answer is ultimately because it's the only way that can work in the absence of accurate information.
To try to build things up piece by piece, understanding each aspect how and why is my preference - but realistically, without input information of much higher ultimate accuracy than is available from all but a relative handful of sources, what that tends to lead to is struggling to accomplish somewhat inaccurate technical goals, instead of doing ones best to dance.
I took a lengthy detour collecting and internalizing that kind of information, and it is today a very solid foundation from which to explore other aspects of dancing. But I did it that way because I am me; it was not exactly a quick path to results. The actual level of technique needed for results is surprisingly low - but the completeness of its execution must be high.
Bella
02-14-2009, 11:44 AM
Ok - now, I really hear ya...
Going to the mall, using my RB, why's, and visual learning curve :)
fascination
02-14-2009, 11:49 AM
enough...enough...let's talk about why we sway, why we swing, why we arrive on a straight leg, why we heel or toe lead.....enough of this other stuff...and that is not a request
fascination
02-14-2009, 11:51 AM
and when we do so , let's please be mindful that people of all levels of dance are trying to get something from the conversation and should feel able to post
Chris Stratton
02-14-2009, 12:12 PM
One of the most illustrative things is to look through the standard syllabus figures and see where the straight lines of movement are, and where they change direction. This turns out to correlate quite closely with most of the other details - rise and fall, CBM, etc. In the basic form, swing down on step three, swing up still in the same direction (even as the body may rotate) during steps one and two of the next figure, then descend in a new direction determined by the body rotation that has happened...
latingal
02-14-2009, 01:27 PM
Yesterday a student asked me for help in latin, and I used multiple methods of giving her an answer - but she really seemed to grab on to the why of it making the dancing easier if she did it a certain way.
I guess I've been lucky to have great pros; the "whys" have been a normal part of my training (that I wasn't specifically aware of until this thread).
It is good for me to be consciously aware of this being in my arsenal! Thanks Nik!
fascination
02-14-2009, 02:50 PM
my current pro is all about my knowing why...I find that it increases the likelihood that the info will stick...and stick in the proper way
fascination
02-14-2009, 02:53 PM
like how much sway?...well unless you know you are using it to stop, not just as a shape...you don't now how much...
dancepro
02-14-2009, 02:53 PM
I guess I've been lucky to have great pros; the "whys" have been a normal part of my training (that I wasn't specifically aware of until this thread).
I was lucky to have had teachers the were a library of understand why things are done the way they are. Not only did they know the history of the step, actions, the why's and technique, they were also able to explain the technique in simple and easy to understand manner. If students ask, I will be the first to explain the why's. As CS said there are teachers that don't know the exact why's and are using very wage explanation on why things are done this way or that way.
When I wanted to know why something was done this way or that way, I was very quick find out which of my teachers would know the answers (on a side note, the three teachers that had the most technical knowledge were the same three teachers the promoted the RB dancing). I like the question why. I asked it a lot when I competed and still do to this day. I remember asking teachers to tell me why something was done like that and being told to just do as I was told. I then took the same question to my main teacher and he explained the reason for it and I understood and did it. I had another teacher scream at me for doing the wrong footwork. I asked her to teach me and she told me that I should have learned it a long time ago. Again I went back to my main teacher and had him help me with the footwork.
I learned to dance using the "why" to understand the meaning of dancing. I then danced without paying attention to the why and just danced.
Dancepro
fascination
02-14-2009, 03:00 PM
and therein lies the pardox; to know so that one can let go of knowing...but, in the meantime, on this thread....let's talk about why we DO do those various technical thing
etp777
02-14-2009, 03:03 PM
Is it on topic for this thread to also ask why, not just tell why?
fascination
02-14-2009, 03:04 PM
yes...please
latingal
02-14-2009, 03:16 PM
like how much sway?...well unless you know you are using it to stop, not just as a shape...you don't now how much...
Yes, once that connection was made for me - I was able to control my standard dancing and practice much better. Instead of just trying to hit a line or form, I knew the purpose behind the inclination of my hips. And if I was falling off balance at the top of a swing, I knew what to adjust.
SDsalsaguy
02-14-2009, 05:41 PM
Just to avoid any doubt, this is an official moderating comment. We hate to be so heavy-handed, but I think its absurd that I even need to make this post, especially after so many hints and warnings have already been made by multiple staff members. (This comment also comes in response to posts that are no longer public.) That said:
DF is for everyone. Those who want to know about the RB approach can access it accordingly. Introducing it elsewhere--and especially where it is not wanted--is dogmatic proselytizing.
No more RB in this thread. No more warnings.
As I believe this thread started to advocate for the "why" as an instrumental part of learning, can we move the actual specific "why" Q&As to threads of their own? So they don't get mixed together and cause confusion?
dancepro
02-14-2009, 07:01 PM
As I believe this thread started to advocate for the "why" as an instrumental part of learning, can we move the actual specific "why" Q&As to threads of their own? So they don't get mixed together and cause confusion?
That sounds to me that would be a good idea. I do realize that would be a lot of work.
Dancepro
Terpsichorean Clod
02-14-2009, 07:32 PM
As I believe this thread started to advocate for the "why" as an instrumental part of learning, can we move the actual specific "why" Q&As to threads of their own? So they don't get mixed together and cause confusion?
Specific questions have been moved here (temporarily, I think): Technique Discussions (http://danceforums.com/showthread.php?t=7521)
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